Talk:Japanese dragon

dragon kings?

This has recently been added to the article:

There are Dragon Kings in Japanese folklore. The main ones recognized in Japan are:

1. Sui Riu - a rain-dragon, which when in pain causes red rain, colored by its blood.

2. Han Riu - a striped dragon with nine different colors, forty feet long. Can never reach heaven.

3. Ka Riu - a small dragon; only seven feet long. Ka-Riu is a fiery red. Some sources even say that its body is all flame.

4. Ri Riu - has wonderful sight and can see more than 100 miles.

I don't know how legit all this is, so I'll let it stay in the article, but I wouldn't mind some clarification of sources on this one. (Oh, and I'm changing the riu into ryū.) TomorrowTime 11:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So... I did a little burrowing, and the original for the so-called "dragon kings of Japan" seems to be this book [1], called DRAGONS AND DRAGON LORE BY ERNEST INGERSOLL, written in 1928, more precisely, the ninth chapter [2]. Ingersoll is in turn quoting someone called Joly (he fails to provide a first name), who wrote "circa 50 years ago". So the original source would seem to be from the middle 19th century. I have my doubts about the veracity of this source. I have tried searching the internet for 水龍/水竜, 火竜/火龍 and 里竜/里龍 (I'm not sure what the han is supposed to be). The majority of the water dragons are hits for a certain brand of sake, the majority of the fire dragons are anime related, and the Ri dragon is only ever mentioned as the name of a peak in Taiwan. I think it's pretty safe to say that the four dragon kings are probably not legit folklore. If nobody speaks up in a week or so, I'll remove the whole section. TomorrowTime 20:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the user who put in the unsourced information was (as usual) Dragonsinn, who also insists on only identifying his external link as the "correct" one. I'd rather not see self-promotion with websites in an encyclopedia article. Especially with websites that are uncited in the articles. 24.14.198.8 17:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC) Chris G.[reply]

Well, citations can be found for this info, the problem is that the source is not all that reliable, IMO. I asked around and someone more knowledgable than me had this to say:

I have only ever read of these dragon kings in Ingersoll's book and others who have subsiquently quoted him.

Ingersoll wrote in a very arrogant way (as many westerners did) assuming all legends were nothing more than total native superstition. He reguarded the dragon as totaly imaginary and even rejected the sugestion that fossil bones might have influenced the legend. Pradoxicaly he made many assumptions about the religoius belifes of pre-historic man with no evidence save his own imagination.

Ingersoll's work is now largly disreguarded. [...]

To check on these dragon kings we need to unearth some old Japanese references to them.

So, it is a completely viable assumption that these dragon kings have some possible origins in actual Japanese folklore, but until references from authors other than Ingersoll can be found, I'd say it's better to remove them from the main page. TomorrowTime 10:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rectification

Although your article is very instructive concerning the peculiarities of the Japanese version of the Dragon, the East Asian Dragon, as it is well-known, is originally Chinese. Saying that it is originally Buddhist is clearly a falsification. I don't know if it is intentional, I presume not, so I have rectified the article. The same for "the four divine beasts of Japanese mythology", you can check this in the good article about "Four Symbols (Chinese constellation)". Just for your information, "ryu" comes from the Sui-Tang dynasties' capital pronounciation (Chang'An) "lyowng", and the four Symbols, Suzaku, Genbu, Byakko, Seiryu all come respectively from "Tsyu Tsyak", "Hwen Bu" ("Bu" in late middle Chinese, "miu" in early middle Chinese), "Baek Xou", "Tsheng Lyowng". For the modern Chinese mandarin dialect, Korean and Vietnamese pronounciations, see the article "Four Symbols".

This can be seen as little details, but in a media like Wikipedia, it is important to inform without bias.

周麗慧 Tsiuw Leihwei

Islands as dragon

Has anyone heard of the myth about the islands of Japan being a dragon? I don't remember when or where I've heard it, but the legend explains the differences in the numbers of claws between Chinese and Japanese dragons. The myth says that:

A Chinese dragon encountered great peril in its country, and it had to leave. In its haste, the dragon travelled eastward toward the rising sun. But on its way, it met obstacles of great difficulty and had to use its ultimate powers by sacrifice - the dragon lost a claw from each foot. After escaping out to sea, the tired dragon went to sleep, thus forming the islands of Japan.

I think there is a similar myth for Hong Kong and it may be related. There might be a "bigger" story where there were several dragons fighting over the mainland and one won over the others - remaining to be the guardian of the Imperial family... or something like that. Has anyone encountered a story like that? --Emana 00:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard that myth before (although I can't remember where, exactly), so yes, I believe that, with some more citations, something ought to be added to the article about it. 24.124.88.11 (talk) 16:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]