Talk:Russian Americans

Russian Americans

If you are a Russian American, we (amongst ourselves) had this classification in place: 1st Wave: Russians who migrated before or during the Russian Revoltuion of 1917. Most of these Russians settled around the east coast; New York, New Jersey, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Florida. They also made their way to Ohio and Illinois. west coast; California, Oregon (these were mostly Old Believer Orthodox Followers). For the most part we were Christians, Russian Orthodox Believers. Also note, we didn't emmigrate, we were not persecuted, and most of all, we had a term which differentiated from the Soviet Russian, We were White Russians[1]. Most do know the Russian language and attend church services. The older generation is dying, the younger generations growing, the younger they are, the less they know the Russian language. 2nd Wave: Russians who migrated from Europe and Asia[2] before or during WW2. Mostly Russian Orthodox Believers. (Oddly enough, the term "2nd wave" was barely used) 3rd Wave: Are Russians who emigrated from the Soviet Union. For the most part, they didn't want to be considered as Russians, and were eager enough to just become Americans. They emigrated mostly to Brighton Beach New York. Later they started to migrate to other destinations; New Jersey, Boston, Miami, California. Most of these Russians were of Jewish descent. 4th Wave: is the newest wave of Russians who left Russia during the 1990's, seeking for a change of life, new jobs, or students at universities. They migrated anywhere possible or where there was a need for them. They were not leaving Russia for being persecuted, so they are of different faiths and religion. Non Classified: These are the Russians who made their way to America prior to all these waves. Fort Ross[3] in California, as an example or Alaska [4]

Most of the Russian American webpages on the net, are generated already by the 4th wave Russians.

Jewish

"Approximately 90% of Russian-speaking Americans are Jewish". Ridiculously high. Even the alleged supporting material (Pravda) only mentions 6 out of 10, and the sample size is the smallest possible. Remove unless cited better. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 19:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC).

Maybe they were talking about Brighton Beach. BirdValiant 00:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

the great wave of russian immigrants was from 1820 and 1920... more than 90% of russians are Jewish though they speak russian not jewish... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.135.59.100 (talk • contribs) 13:13, November 16, 2006 (UTC)

The article clearly defines RAs as people born in the Russian Empire, the USSR, or the post-1991 Russian Federation - not people whose ancestors were born there. Zapiens 13:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with AnonEMOuse, thats stupid. And this stupidity came from the fact that the USAians mistakenly labled "Russians" everybody who came from Russia. M.V.E.i. 09:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Most Russian Americans are not jewish. Jewish Americans however, do have alot of central and eastern backgrounds.

Deletion vote

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Russian Americans. Badagnani 01:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"Notable people" in infobox

Most of the people in the box are very old and do not reflect the latest wave of Russian immigration. Adding someone like Sergey Brin would be ideal. --66.167.203.61 (talk) 23:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Sergei Brin is probably the most well known Russian-American out there. Realistically, I don't think the average person has heard of most of the people shown (Rachmaninoff being the obvious exception). CommanderJamesBond (talk) 06:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I live in L.A. and i can ashure you that even the youngsters know Rachmaninoff, while only few know Brin. The best cretarea to choose people for images is to choose those whose fame was historicaly proved. You cant enter young celebreties because it would look more like a glamour journal. I caouldn't make a better choice myself, then what the user did, and by learning his detales i have seen that he's kind off a pro in those things at Wikipedia, so i think this is the best image and no changes should be done. 79.180.7.175 (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you!!! The image right now is the most representetive that can get. It shows some of the most important people in American history, in it's politics, science and culture. It's perfect!!! Any change will be, sorry, stupid. Dont fix something if it ain't broken. Shpakovich (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute

I think that Russian Jews should be considered ethnically Russian, because apparently, a lot of ethnic Russians have converted to Judaism. My mother's family is Roman Catholic and came from Italy, but considered themselves Italian-American, not Catholic-American. My father's family is Jewish and came from Russia, but considered themselves Russian-American, not Jewish-American. Therefore, I can't be half-Italian and half-Jewish, or half-Catholic and half-Russian. Having said that, I am half-Italian and half-Russian, or half-Catholic and half-Jewish. If anyone objects to me editing the article to suit this argument, please let me know within a day. Marcus2 (talk) 14:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You got to confused. A Jew cant be of Russian ethnicity. Ethnicity is race, blood. What you talk about is relegion. Relegion is not ethnicity. Give a link to the claim that many ethnic Russians converted to Judaism. Even if some have, that still wont make all people whose relegion is Judaism Russians. This version is the most nutral one and explaines important things. What you did is returning the version that the edit wars started because of in the first place. In Russian, Nationality means ethnicity, and many Russians when have seen on Jews nationality Russian protested, and an explanation is so really needed. You cant escape the topic. This version is the concensus one when both sides are shown. Shpakovich (talk) 16:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

By definition, a Russian American is someone who believes he is a Russian American. Period. Ethicity=identity. Since the U.S. census is based on free responses of the individuals in question, its data are definitive. Causantin (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

But we brpught to censuses. One asking if you are Russian, and one if you are Russian ethnicity. The results were different. And ethnicity is race, origin, blood. What you said means that a German may decide he is Chinese. Ethnicity means racial identity. Origin, blood, history. Shpakovich (talk) 16:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, your first sentence is gibberish. Do you mean there is a second census, other than the U.S. Census Bureau one? Where is it? Secondly, as per the relevant Wikipedia article "an ethnic group (also called a people or an ethnicity) is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry." Your definition is the racist one. "Origin, blood"? " Racial Identity"? You might want to think again before making such points openly, the current political climate is not very favorable to racists... Back to the point, who thinks that a non-Russian would answer "yes" to the question "are you a Russian-American"? Realistically, it's silly to believe a Jewish-American would register as a Russian- or Polish- or German- American. As for the German, the point is not if he says he is Chinese, but if he believes it (which is unlikely)... Causantin (talk) 16:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You speak demogogic pretty words right now. There is such a word race, it's not a curse. The second census id given in the article to. By a university, Harward, which shows how much ethnic Russians there are. Ethnicity, ethnic groups, is race. racism is saying that one race is worst then another, i havent said that. You want to say that beetwen you, and a black man, theres really no difference? That difference doesnt make one of you better or worst, but your DNA is different. The quote you gave uses geneology as creterea. Russian-Jews and real Russians dont have the same geneology. Brin for example. He's Jewish but he calles himself a Russian-American. Why? Because he was born in Russia, and his what called a Rossiyanin in Russian, which means resident of Russia, or was. Ethnic Russian is Russkiy, which means Russian by ethnicity. Even if he was born in France, which means he's not Rossiyanin, but that wont change the fact he's Russkiy. In America, both can identify themselves as Russian-American, but different types. And we should explaine it here. The dact that in Russian popular culture they laugh about Jews like Brin who call themselves Russian-American, just see the movie Brat 2 (Brother 2) where they show a stereotypical Jew with a Jewish accent saying: "We Russians...", this movie took plaace in America by the way, show that many people dont understand the difference, thats why it should be explained and shown. This disccusion already awoke here so many times. The current version is a concensus one, because it brings both views. Shpakovich (talk) 18:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I am a Russian immigrant and I don't undestand what are you saying. The definition of "ethnic russian" in your Harvard FAS reference is "either born in Russia or have at least one parent or grandparent of ethnic Russian heritage", but the reference does not pass WP:RS in this context because it does not mention any sources for their figures. At most, it can be used to justify a sentence such as "some scholars find the US Census results unrealistic" --Cubbi (talk) 20:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's the quote from the Harvard link: "According to the US Census of 1990, the estimated total population from Russia and the Soviet Union living in the United States was 2,880,000 people. But a more realistic figure is 750,000 Americans of ethnic Russian descent". What i say is that it's important to notice most of Russian-Americans are not ethnic Russians. That's important to expaline because i gave an example from popular culture that in Russia for example people laugh about Jews from Russia in America labeling themselves as "Russian-Americans". Shpakovich (talk) 20:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Your right the 750,000 is not an offical census number, but deleting it as an option from the Total Population would hurt the concensus reached long time ago, to include both versions. Thats why in the Total Population i wrote a note stating it's not an offical number but a statement by Harward University researchers. That way we dont hurt the concensus, and yet make a difference beetwen an offical census and a University number. Shpakovich (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Many people have converted to Judaism all over the world, and some of them have names that are native to their home country. And you can't be Russian Orthodox by ethnicity. If you were born and raised in Russia, your ethnicity is Russian. In my opinion, Jewish (like Christian) is a religious reference, not an ethnic reference. In addition, you skimped on my ethnic/religious statements, which I will repeat. I am not half-Italian and half-Jewish at the same time, nor am I half-Catholic and half-Russian at the same time. I am either half-Italian and half-Russian, or half-Catholic and half-Jewish. My father's enthnicity is not Jewish, because my mother's ethnicity is not Roman Catholic. I gave you guys more than one full day to discuss this, but alas, your time ran up! Marcus2 (talk) 15:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please, be careful when reverting this article, you've deleted a big chunk of work that had nothing to do with your dispute with Shpakovich. --Cubbi (talk) 15:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I took that in mind, and this time, I was more careful. Marcus2 (talk) 15:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The number of Russians who converted to Judaism as small. Much more Jews converted to Christianity but i havent seen you adding Russian Orthodoxy in the relegions at the Jewish Americans article. I keep Judiasm and Islam, but there should be an explanation. Almost all Russians are Orthodox christians. I havent wrote all, i wrote most. Again, we could simply delete Judaism and Islam, like once many have done, and finish the argument. Stop this revert war! I havent deleted anything you added, while you keep an edit war when you were explained you revert an old concensus version. Shpakovich (talk) 16:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The number of ethnic Russians who converted to Judaism was not small at all. And why do you think more Jews converted to Christianity than Russians to Judaism? In fact, there are Russian Jewish cemeteries all across New York and New Jersey with mostly Russian-sounding names. Why? Probably because their Russian ancestors converted to Judaism, probably as a result of rabbis and Jews seeking converts. Russia has had a strong Jewish tradition. Historically, Jews were not a small minority in every single European country. In eastern European countries such as Poland and Romania, the population of Jews was immense. It is also an error to say that almost all Russians are Orthodox Christians. Many Russians are atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, and Roman Catholics. And there was no consensus. Please, do NOT even think about reverting another Wikipedian's extensive work in improving the article, especially when it involves reversing to an undesired version. When you do, it is very damaging to the article, and it makes you look foolish. Although you seem unwilling to compromise, I am. I will be putting a neutrality dispute tag at the top of the article. Marcus2 (talk) 17:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, i k now many Jews in the US who converted to Orthodoxy. I dont know one Russian who converted to Judaism. Russia doesnt has a "Jewish tradition". Till 1917 Jews werent alowed to live in Russia itself. Ok, lets assume that not the majority of ethnic Russians are Orthodox. You still agree that it's the biggest faith among them? So i changed the formulation. Could you expaline me why the NPOV tag is here? I said that this is a Harward statistics. I reverse to the undesired version? The version i revert to is for a long time here. Your version was cancled. Why? Because it speaks nothing about how much are ethnic Russians. There were radicals like you from the other side. In relegion they left only Orthodoxy. The number was only 750000. All words about Jews were deleted. Saying that i'm unwilling to compromise is a cheap propoganda. If i would be unwiiling, i would delete every word about Jews. But since i'm for compromise, i dont. Please notice i havent deleted one word of what you said! All i did was including the other view. Shpakovich (talk) 18:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Now you're just being silly. Of course there were Jews in Russia before 1917. Half of my ancestors were from Russia, and they were Jewish. Persecutions against Russia's Jews did not begin until the late 19th century. Judaism was in Russia since early medieval times. Marcus2 (talk) 18:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Wait! Do you mean the holly Russia or Russian Empire? In Israel, where i live, for example, they say: "Golda Meir was born in the Russian city Kiev". Thats Russian Empire but not inner Russia. Pale of settelment. And in Israel, like in the rest of the world, they call "Russian" anyone who speaks Russian, even if he's from Ukraine or Belarus. Shpakovich (talk) 18:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed that there is an IP number editing from Israel. You say you live in Israel, so I strongly assume it's you. As far as I know, half of my ancestors came from mainland Russia. And Boris Pasternak was born in Moscow in 1890 into a Jewish family. By the way, are you Jewish by faith? Marcus2 (talk) 19:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah it was me, forgot to sign in. But the edit i did was what i wrote about. Instaed of writing that most Russians are Orthodox, i simply write it's the biggest faith among them. By faith i'm Atheist, or Deist more precicely. By ethnicity i'm half Jewish, by mother, and half Russian, by father. I support Zionism. Yes Boris Pasternak was born in inner Russia but his anccesors converted to Orthodoxy. Those who converted could live in Russia. The composer Rubinstein is the same story. Were your anccesors from inner Russia converts? Because then that explaines it. If not you should ask questions about it. It might be Crimea which till Chrushev was Russia, but Jews were allowed their. Or it could be New Russia, which was Russia but Jews were allowed there. Till 1917 anyway it had no connection to Ukraine. Shpakovich (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

My Russian ancestors remained Jewish, never converted to Christianity. And I agree with Causantin's first argument. My father is Jewish and had a bar mitzvah, but no longer practices Judaism. And although he never converted to Christianity, he considers himself Russian-American. There is at least one site that says that Boris Pasternak's religion was Jewish, though he is categorized on Wikipedia as a Russian Orthodox Christian. Perhaps he converted to Christianity from Judaism at some point in his life. Marcus2 (talk) 19:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Pasternak? He never converted. His father have. Your father is Russian-American. Why? Because his nationality is Russian. But is his ethnicity Russian? Is he of the Slavic ethnic group called Russians? DNA. And thats why the whole argument started. Since there is such a group Jewish-Americans, many people started a few month ago deleting Judaism as relegion, and writing 300000 as the number of Russians in America. They said: "Jews from Russia are not Russian-Americans but Jewish-Americans". Another point which made the discussion harder is that in Russian, nationality means ethnicity. Just ask your father for his birth ID. In the Soviet Union it was written nationality:Jewish. Thats why when they were told that the Jews from Russia are Russians by nationality they answered: "No there not! There jews by nationality". Then it was understood that in the article it all should be explained. Thats why it's a concensus version. Jews from Russia were remained Russian Americans, and Judaism remaןned as one of the relegions here. But the whole thing was explained and alternative statistic were entered. That was the compromise back then. Shpakovich (talk) 19:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Represent this in the article?

Guys, since there is a dispute, how about creating a subsection, such as "Ethnicity and Nationality", where all this argument could be contained? We could explain that in the USSR, ethnicity was written in the documents issued to every citizen, which often contradicted with "ethnicity" in its common English language definition. The situation was even more complicated for Russian Jews, who had three independent definitions of ethnicity: matrilinear, documented, and cultural. You could have a jewish grandmother on your mother's side (and thus be recognized as "jewish" by Israel, regardless of faith), live in Georgian SSR with your father (and look georgian and speak georgian), and have "Russian" written in your soviet passport. I've never really looked into this, so I don't know what WP:RS exist on this subject. --Cubbi (talk) 15:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Exellent idea!!! But for now, this version stays, because it's a concensus one. I havent execluded Jews from Russian Americans, even thought once many wanted to, but i belive an explanation should be made. And the version with the explanation is the concensus version. Shpakovich (talk) 16:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

actual numbers

Here's some qualifications to your numerical arguments, guys:

• 3,009,876 (ref is in the article) is from the year 2005 U.S. Census American Community Survey (not the same as U.S. Census). It lists the people who wrote "Russian" in Question 10, which asked people to write in their "ancestry or ethnic origin." The question was based on self-identification; results represent self-classification by people according to the ancestry group or groups with which they most closely identify. It also lists 963,263 americans as Americans with Ukrainian ancestry and 125,992 as Americans with Israeli ancestry. A more up to date number would be 3,105,965 for year 2006 [5] (also lists 961,113 Ukrainians)
• 2,652,214 Americans wrote "Russian" in the same question of the actual U.S. Census in the year 2000 (the next full census will happen in 2010)
• 706,000 Americans speak Russian language most frequently at home according to the actual year 2000 U.S. Census [6]. This is a very strict defition - I am a Russian American, and I speak Russian freely, but I don't speak Russian at home (my wife is an Irish American), so I would not be counted as one of this 0.7 mil.
• 758,600 foreign-born Americans list Russia as their birthplace in IPUMS year 2000 dataset. This appears to be the source of the Harvard FAS reference.

I don't know of any other nation-wide statistics gathered in the USA. --Cubbi (talk) 21:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Sergey Brin is the example. He labels himself Russian American. But his not Russian Ethnicity. About the question who do you identidy with. It's a tricky one and we should avoid it. Jews in America who dont know English, but know Russian, feel that the American Jews who are already simply American are foreigners while ethnic Russians they identify with. It's the same think with Russophone Ukrainians in Ukraine. Ukrainians in east Ukraine in a survey stated that they will have a Russian in their home, but wont have someone from west Ukraine their. Does that make them of Russian ethnicity? Again, no. Shpakovich (talk) 22:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do you insist on strict segregation? Sergey Brin is a Russian American *and* a Jewish American. The problem between you and Marcus, as I see it, is how to define "Russian American": Marcus believes the English language definition (by self-identification) should be used. You believe that the Soviet passport definition (by genealogy) should be used. We know the exact numbers for the three definitions I listed above, and we don't know the numbers for the definition "ethnic Russians living in the USA" where "ethnic" is defined as in the soviet passport. (remember, your Harvard FAS curriculum defines "ethnic russian" as born in Russia or child/grandchild of someone born in Russia - it counts Sergey Brin as "ethnic Russian"). --Cubbi (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You didnt understand me. Brin is a Russian American, but his not an ethnic Russian. Thats what i say. I say that we need to have both numbers. Both Russian Americans, and both ethnic Russian Americans. Shpakovich (talk) 23:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Read that. Its the part in the discussion beetwen Marcus an me when i explained him how it all started and why i insist on that version: "Your father is Russian-American. Why? Because his nationality is Russian. But is his ethnicity Russian? Is he of the Slavic ethnic group called Russians? DNA. And thats why the whole argument started. Since there is such a group Jewish-Americans, many people started a few month ago deleting Judaism as relegion, and writing 300000 as the number of Russians in America. They said: "Jews from Russia are not Russian-Americans but Jewish-Americans". Another point which made the discussion harder is that in Russian, nationality means ethnicity. Just ask your father for his birth ID. In the Soviet Union it was written nationality:Jewish. Thats why when they were told that the Jews from Russia are Russians by nationality they answered: "No there not! There jews by nationality". Then it was understood that in the article it all should be explained. Thats why it's a concensus version. Jews from Russia were remained Russian Americans, and Judaism remaןned as one of the relegions here. But the whole thing was explained and alternative statistic were entered. That was the compromise back then".Shpakovich (talk) 23:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah but in the research i gave ethnicity actually means DNA, the biological creterea. And thats what i mean. But now you see that i dont support here segarigation but simply explaining and giving both of the number? If i would support segarigation i would delete everything that menations Jews, but that's not what i'm doing. Shpakovich (talk) 23:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that Sergey Brin has no Russian DNA? His face certainly looks slavic, rather than middle-eastern. --Cubbi (talk) 23:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Haven't you known? Brin is in ethnic Jew. Your surfing into a different discussion. While living in Europe Jews mixed with others, Khmilnitsky's Cossacks worked hard on that. But they, ethnicaly at least? Identify themselves as Jewish. Shpakovich (talk) 23:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)