Jump to content

Talk:Circumcision/Archive 7

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rhobite (talk | contribs) at 03:56, 18 August 2005 (Uncircumcised vs. Intact: what reference?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


circumcision

there is a lot of pseudo-information in the editing i am a pediatric urologist if you want real info contact me i am tired of the incessant bickering i see here with people advancing their agendas (especially robert the bruce) i think my experience with the normal and pathologic states of the penis count for something also, i at least do circumcisions (when i deem them necessary) and am well-versed in their complications

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. You can edit almost any article on Wikipedia by just following the Edit link at the top of the page. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. JFW | T@lk 07:40, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The British rejection of circumcision

The British rejected the National Health subsidy on circumcision because of the lack of benefit and the mortality rate noted at the time. Douglas Gardiner's paper was most influential here.Michael Glass 06:03, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Korea

The spread of circumcision in South Korea can be attributable to American influence. However, there is nothing in the New Testament that mandates circumcision. If circumcision was promoted in South Korea, the source was American rather than specifically Christian.Michael Glass 06:03, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will not provide refs for a "conspiracy theory"

If I had a conspiracy theory, it'd automatically be invalid for edition. These are straw man attacks on my edits by claiming I have a motive that is not even true, to somehow invalidate my edits. Some POV revert warmongers especially Jewish can't seem to relax about topics related to Jews, but are also related to Christians like myself. They have no inborne mantle of power to control these things, however they may think they are God's chosen ones. All I'm interested in, is: Wikipedia:Contribute what you know or are willing to learn more about. ScapegoatVandal 13:58, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just where is what I wrote POV? Come please, tell me how much less of this you want cut off from public dissemination and sweetly appealing to your mind! Did I mention you lack NPOV? You are only reverting from following me around, eh Weyes?. You would pay no other attention to this article. I classify you as a revert vandal and deletionist fanatic. This is a problem in the wikipedia. It doesn't need you. ScapegoatVandal 14:43, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you refuse to provide references, it must be assumed that is because you cannot provide references. In which case, this is original research. See Wikipedia:No original research. Would you like to change your mind about providing references?
If you honestly can't see why writing something akin to (I'm paraphrasing) "Circumcision in America has happened because Jews are too rich and powerful," then perhaps you need to review the WP:NPOV policy also. - Jakew 14:59, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are putting a straw man argument against me to filibuster, with subtle character assassination. Read Wikipedia's own definition of that. I did not say that which you claim I said, if you'll read again. I said that Jews and Puritans were friends, which is why they both had allowed this practice to even flourish. Jews and Puritans have historic background as friends on the Wikipedia it is written as so. Puritans provided Jews with legal protections and they shared a lot of ideology. Just look up the articles about Jews and the Puritans and the Glorious Revolution et al. They like that stuff, regardless of what I or you feel about it. It's their own thing and I respect that is their choice. Yankees and Victorians had immense respect for eachother, if you'll read the Wikipedia and check those things offsite too. I didn't say anything you said, which means you can stop the act right now and quit claiming I need extra sources than what is already on the Wikipedia. ScapegoatVandal 15:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jakew, I agree with you that sources should be provided. However, this wasn't your primary reason for reverting, was it? You called the edit a 'conspiracy theory'. I disagree. and think the section should be re-added.
The only reason I will officially oppose the addition of this section is that the rules do state that sources should be provided. ScapegoatVandal, could you please try to cite sources? -- Ec5618 15:46, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Ec5618, you're partly right. I think the section is complete and total rubbish, and - yes - a conspiracy theory. It is also distinctly POV. However, if credible references are supplied, I cannot reasonably oppose the inclusion. I do not expect them to be found, since those of us who have read up on the subject (eg Gollaher's Circumcision: A history of the world's most controversial surgery) know it to be wrong. - Jakew 16:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Tell me how it is complete and total rubbish, by context of definition. Tell me how it is a conspiracy theory, by a context in definition. Tell me how it is POV, by context of definition. I am circumcised, but do you see me inserting my personal campaign to justify an optional circumcision at my age, regardless of that fact(it was not as an adult)? You are here on a mission to promote your views in favour of circumcision, but I have no f**king care to get involved in that either way. I'm not on any hateful vendetta. All I'm interested in is culture and this is merely one part of culture that came off the back of my head and I wanted to share interesting facts that I never knew before. That is what wikipedia is about, although the cultural interest is mine alone. ScapegoatVandal 16:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since you are trying in include something, it is your job to provide references, ScapegoatVandal. Though I do agree that Jakew's initial asessment of the situation was off, and that he should have tried to word his comments less offensively. -- Ec5618 16:24, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
I have already provided internal references to my claims here at the Wikipedia.
Here are just a few for starters:
Menasseh Ben Israel
History of the Jews in England--Maranos in England
History of the Jews in England
History of the Jews in the United States
Also as we all know, circumcision wasn't widespread until recently in Christendom. It was only after Jews got Emancipation at the time as Catholics did, that circumcision became "normal" to the average Christian. Just because the articles don't draw these conclusions, doesn't mean it is wrong for me to deny speaking about the convergence of facts. To do else is to turn a blind eye. ScapegoatVandal 16:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
None of those articles deal with circumcision. In fact, the word does not even occur in them. Your edit is based in inference and speculation, and unless you can cite a serious reference this is dealt with as original research, for which Wikipedia is not an outlet. JFW | T@lk 16:45, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Your edit suggests that Jewish emancipation led to widened practice of circumcision in Anglo-American countries. There is, however, no record of widespread circumcision in the UK since the late 19th century. The acceptance of circumcision in the USA has more to do with perceptions of hygiene than influence of "rich Jews" (rather stereotypical) on the fashionable classes. Again, during a business deal people typically keep their underwear on. JFW | T@lk 16:53, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You are yet again putting words into my mouth. I never said that their wealth was a cause. That is straw man argumentation. I said that they enjoyed mutual society with the Yankees and Victorians of Puritan origin, partly because of the way the laws were intolerant to traditionalists and promoting the Bank of England etc which was largely staffed by Jews. Protestants were making the big money most of the time. Jews only began to make money around the time of Disraeli and Rothschild, whilst they had been the tools of selfishly bigoted anti-Papist Protestant aristocrats. Any Traditional Catholic will tell you this fact. Just because history is written by the winners of war, doesn't mean that the truth is nonexistant apart from policy. ScapegoatVandal 17:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have reported the eponymous ScapegoatVandal to the 3RR board for consideration. His response to my warning on his talkpage may be worth reading, and are grounds for banning IMHO. JFW | T@lk 16:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, a Jew would say that about those that reveal more than a Jew wants in the media. WHORE! ScapegoatVandal 17:03, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ScapegoatVandal, you are making an arse of yourself. You broke the rules, so you should pay the price. Clean and simple. Also, please stop using emotionally charged words out of context. -- Ec5618 17:36, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Hey dude, what of the others here breaking the rules by reverting? What of their motives and actions by bullying the Jew topics? ScapegoatVandal 17:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reverting is not "breaking the rules". Your violations of this and this are, though. JFW | T@lk 18:22, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hogging articles is not against the rules per se(or is it?), as is not(or is it?) also reverting any single thing for power over that info. You have found a loophole and you've gone to exploit that weak jugular. I will never concede to your pressure. Anybody who is not Jewish and knows about Puritans I will converse with on this article, because I want it to be fair and balanced. Apparently, the fact that this includes the topic of "Jew" offends every Jewish person here unless a Gentile or Goy gets your express permission prior to editing. There is nothing else to this conversation. Stalking is against the rules. ScapegoatVandal 18:30, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

DNFTT. JFW | T@lk 19:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What does that mean? ScapegoatVandal 19:08, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Google:DNFTT JFW | T@lk 19:13, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It means you need to substantiate your edits if you want anybody to take you seriously. - jredmond 19:17, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Template:TrollWarning

Wow, he found the template! JFW | T@lk 19:23, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Because I feel just like you do. Wow, yet you think I'm just a miserable homophobic antisemite? ScapegoatVandal 19:26, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Motion to refactor the above

I suggest we refactor the whole discussion above. Any objections? JFW | T@lk 19:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please do. I have in the past suggested keeping trolls, so these could be shown to editors as an example of what not to do. This discussion fails to meet my criteria for archiving, as the mistake ScapegoatVandal made is simply too obvious. -- Ec5618 20:52, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Circumcised?

File:Circpn - circumcised penis.jpg

The image of the 'circumcised' penis in the article looks to me like it could be an uncircumcised penis with the foreskin rolled back...? It's hard to tell but it appears to have skin bands bunched behind the glans, which looks smooth and shiny. Have a look at these wikipedia pics where you can see another penis with foreskin both covering the glans and retracted.

User:Michael Glass, I noticed that you added a bunch of links to CIRP pages on alternative treatments. I've temporarily left these, but they really don't belong here. I don't object to linking to individual studies at CIRP, but CIRP's summary pages are heavily biased, do not have the benefit of peer review, and sometimes contain outright lies. Please could you replace the CIRP summaries with primary sources? - Jakew 8 July 2005 11:29 (UTC)

User: Jakew Thanks for the note, Jake. I have added some individual sources but I have left the CIRP references for the time being. If you have any specific objections to the pages that are linked, please say so. At the moment I feel that the value of these summary pages is that they link the reader with a range of references to investigate. Michael Glass 8 July 2005 12:55 (UTC)

I've removed the CIRP references. My principle objections are: 1) the unbalanced and selective presentation of evidence, 2) the fact that the pages concerned are not peer-reviewed, and 3) are frequently misleading. If it is useful to present lots of references, then let's do so on Wikipedia, either here or on another page. At least we can correct errors here. I can see no reason to link to CIRP's pages here, any more than I can see a reason to link to the Flat Earth Society on a page on geophysics. Propaganda has its place, I suppose, but not in an encyclopaedia. Do we really want to start the habit of linking to any fool's webpage as an authoritative source? - Jakew 8 July 2005 13:43 (UTC)

Jake, I'll go through the references and see if any more are relevant and add them. I am, however, disappointed that you did not take this opportunity to explain what specific objection you had to the CIRP pages that I cited, apart from the fact that they present a view that you object to.Michael Glass 8 July 2005 14:04 (UTC)

Ok, so you want some specific objections. Here are a few.
  • BXO is the best page given, but is somewhat selective in terms of evidence presented. It omits evidence (eg Vincent & Mackinnon) showing less successful alternative treatments, thus giving a misleading picture. To CIRP's credit, they do mention the possible pre-cancerous role of BXO, yet downplay it (see my letter for the facts). It also includes questionable hype about the 'value' of the prepuce.
  • Balanitis is again highly selective in terms of evidence presented. They quote Van Howe's "finding" regarding balanitis, but ignore the approx. 7 other studies investigating the link between balanitis and circumcision (see [1]). They say virtually nothing about treatment. They make a highly misleading statement about lysozyme (CIRP misinterpret of Prakash's findings, assuming that the 'lytic material' found was lysozyme when in fact it could be any of hundreds of possible candidates, and Fleiss' claim is contradicted by their own references [2]), and also about sebaceous glands (which Taylor reports do not exist).
  • Phimosis is again selective. "Phony Phimosis Diagnosis" is a clue that this is not a balanced page. CIRP totally endorse Rickwood's bizarre premise that phimosis is only present when BXO is, ignoring the criticism of this circular reasoning, and other causes such as scarring due to balanoposthitis. CIRP make erroneous claims, such as "Topical steroid ointment is now the treatment of choice..." (it is among some physicians, but the statement implies all, which is blatantly false).

- Jakew 8 July 2005 14:47 (UTC)

Thank you, Jake, for this detailed information. I shall certainly ponder what you said, and pass on your comments to CIRP for their consideration. There are just a couple of preliminary points that I would like to raise in response. Your letter and that of George Hill [3] in the British Medical Journal are answered by Willcourt, who makes some very good points in support of your position. It is obvious that the whole area of phimosis and BXO is an area of some contention. I would be interested to see other responses in this ongoing controversy. Michael Glass 9 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)

Thank you, Michael. I would be grateful if you would keep me informed. While you are at it, perhaps you might also ask them to correct other errors. For example, at cancer, which is one of their more outrageously misleading pages, they claim "There were clinical studies that attempted to induce cancer by introducing smegma subcutaneously and intravaginally: No carcinomas could be induced." (False. I can think of three studies from memory that produced carcinomas: Plaut and Kohn-Speyer, Pratt-Thomas, and Heins.) Another example, which is downright irresponsible, can be found at HIV, where they say: "In another review, Van Howe found that men with circumcised penises were at statistically greater risk of acquiring HIV than a man with a non-circumcised penis.32" Van Howe's meta-analysis has been known to be invalid for a long time,[4] [5] and apparently even Van Howe admits this. To omit this fact is highly irresponsible, especially as Falk has apparently known about this for some time.
These are not an exhaustive list of errors, but just some that occur to me. Please let CIRP know that I would be happy to go into more detail. - Jakew 9 July 2005 11:01 (UTC)

Thanks, Jake, I'll pass this further information on to CIRP. However, a Google search revealed that a Dr Robin J Willcourt was disciplined by the Medical Board in Nevada, USA for 'moral turpitude' <http://medboard.nv.gov/press%20releases/dec6.htm>.

I wonder if this Dr Robin J Willcourt is also the Dr Robin J Willcourt, Maternal-Fetal Medicine, who wrote the letter to the British Medical Journal on circumcision. Michael Glass 9 July 2005 14:22 (UTC)

Well, you can always write to him or email, if you really want to know, Michael. I'm a little puzzled as to what this has to do with the subject, though. - Jakew 9 July 2005 16:31 (UTC)

The quality of the argument can stand or fall by itself, but questions of character can have a bearing on the motivation of the one putting forward the argument and his or her integrity as a writer and as a person. Michael Glass 13:42, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


HIV numbers

Michael, I've removed the discussion of the "earlier" figures, since it will be confusing towards readers.

However, it is incorrect to describe these figures as "earlier". Though they were presented earlier, they must be from a later sample point. The 63% rate comes from the study presented in Rio. Note that there were 45 infections in the control vs 15 in the intervention group. The earlier infection figures reported were 51 and 18 respectively, and thus clearly must be sampled later. I suspect that the 70% figure is a rounding error. - Jakew 17:01, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Uncircumcised vs. Intact

Why does this community insist on using the term uncircumcised. When I went through the article and changed instances of uncircumcised to intact, I was clear about my reasons. The person that reverted it was not.

The term uncircumcised is an extremely POV term. It implies that circumcised is the normal state of the penis, or that the penis started out circumcised and becamse uncircumcised at some point. The term intact is pretty accepted. The term uncircumcised is only used by circumcision proponents. Doesn't the change makes sense? Sirkumsize 02:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Uncircumcised is the more common, unmarked, and neutral term. The term intact, which means "not damaged or impaired", when used in contrast with circumcised pushes the POV that circumcised penises are damaged or impaired. Nohat 03:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore, the argument that "uncircumcised" implies that "circumcised" is the "normal" state of the penis is patently false. Does "undamaged" mean "damaged" is normal? Does "unambiguous" mean "ambiguous" is normal? Does "uncontested" mean "contested" is normal? The fact that a word has an opposite formed with "un-" doesn't inherently mean that the form without "un-" is in any way a default. Nohat 03:22, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
You don't understand. My point is that the term intact (which simply means whole) simply denotes the original state of the penis. It makes no judgement of normality. I feel we must choose the term that makes no judgement over the term that makes a judgement. No, intact does not mean undamaged -- just unmodified. Sirkumsize 03:27, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
It is you who misunderstands. You might try looking up the word "intact" in a dictionary: [6] [7]. All the definitions imply that if something is not intact, then it is somehow damaged. Nohat 03:32, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The dictionary defines intact as having all of its parts. Saying that intact is an invalid term for a penis that is not circumcised would be to deny that the foreskin is part of a penis!!!! Sirkumsize 03:35, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
It also says "not damaged", implying that if something is not intact, then it is damaged. Perhaps you only meant "having all of its parts", but for someone else, that is, the majority of people, who understand "intact" as meaning "not damaged", using that word to describe an uncircumcised penis is an extremely biased and loaded usage. If for whatever reason you don't like "uncircumcised", then just say "not circumcised". But "intact" brings in all kinds of loaded meanings that are inherently POV and completely unacceptable. Nohat 03:38, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Circumcision is surgery. The debate is whether the surgery is therapeutic. Saying that surgery doesn't cause injury is something that I've never heard contended before. Surgery also causes injury in the most literal sense, the question is are the benefits worth it. I really don't understand how you could see circumcision any differently. Sirkumsize 03:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
This is not going to a be a fruitful line of reasoning. No one is arguing that it doesn't make any sense or that it is ungrammatical English to use the word "intact" to describe an uncircumcised penis. What is being argued is that the term "intact" has a negative connotation when used in contrast with the term "circumcised", and the connotation is inherently biased and POV; therefore the term must be avoided to maintain neutrality. It's a loaded word. Nohat 03:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
OK, I'll drop the whole thing right now if you can provide me one academic reference showing that intact is a loaded word in any way. Sirkumsize 03:49, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Because they tend to be interested in finding out facts and not engaging in pointless semantic debates such as this one, academics don't, in general, make declarations about what is and is not a "loaded word". Furthermore, even if I were to find such a reference, you would simply dismiss it as "not academic", so I am not going to take your bait. As a trained linguist, however, I can tell you that it is a very elementary inference from the various dictionary definitions of "intact" that using it as a substitute for the word "uncircumcised" makes the implication that a circumcised penis is somehow damaged. Nohat 03:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Well that's just my point. There is no way to prove which term is more NPOV. I withdraw my original reasoning and now put forward the reason that the term uncircumcised literally doesn't mean that according to the dictionary, and given the dispute, I think we should favour the correct, dictionary meaning of uncircumcised regardless of what its come to mean. This is the only way this can get sorted out. Also, I feel that wikipedia should be correct in its word usage regardless of slang meanings. Sirkumsize 04:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
You keep changing your point and this is frankly getting quite tiresome. Obviously you will not be dissuaded of the belief that the word "intact" is not loaded and biased. I see no point in continuing to argue with you. The fact remains that the word "intact" is loaded and biased, and the word "uncircumcised" is the normal, neutral, clinical, ordinary term, and the evidence for this is borne out in numerous ways as described here. Nohat 04:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Also, dictionary.com defines uncircumcised as being non-Jewish or non-Christian. Clearly a different meaning than what this article seems to be implying! Sirkumsize 03:39, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
As I said previously, if for whatever reason you don't like "uncircumcised", then just say "not circumcised". But don't replace it with a loaded, biased POV term like "intact". Your POV pushing will not be tolerated. Nohat 03:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
You have no proof that using intact over uncircumcised is in any way POV. Sirkumsize 03:43, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
All of the evidence and reasoned argument I have provided is the "proof". Nohat 04:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I also add that "uncircumcised penis" gets more than twice as many hits on Google as "intact penis", furthering the point that "uncircumcised", in addition to being netural and unmarked, is also the more common usage. Nohat 03:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Google is not the authority on such things. Sirkumsize 03:43, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Actually, considering the Google index is the largest corpus of English text ever collected in human history, it certainly is an authority on what constitutes common usage. Nohat 03:51, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The word "uncircumcised" is far more common than "intact" in this context. I do not share your opinion that it has negative connotations. It would be more of an NPOV violation to use the approved vocabulary of the anti-circumcision movement in this article. Rhobite 03:52, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
First of all the anti-circumcision movement as you say just is. I'm really disliking the idea of associating it with POV and ignoring institutions that endorse circumcision. Second of all, do you have any evidence that the term actually belongs to the anti-circumcision movement and is not just the grammatically correct term for a penis o-natural. Sirkumsize 03:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not about common usage. Its about what's correct. The authorativative references show that the word means something else. Sirkumsize 03:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
The word "intact" is defined by negatives: Unharmed, unblemished, etc. The word "uncircumcised" is both more common and more specific. Wikipedia is about common usage, by definition (WP:NOR, WP:V). We are not a prescriptive language guide. We don't get to decide about what words are "correct" or not. Rhobite 04:03, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia has an obligation to recognize that the word uncircumcised has another meaning, just as its obliged to acknowledge that the use of the term intact to describe a natural penis is quite common. The word uncircumcised is also longer. What if someone came here who only speaks Chinese and relied on a dictionary to understand the article? Also any word that uses un- as prefix implies the reversal of, not, in effect a negative of something. The real question here is why does it have to be the negative of circumcision. Can't it be the negative of intact - intact or unintact penis? You have to acknowledge that POV pushers want to the word uncircumcised to be used and its EVERY BIT AS POV as using intact, if not more, and at the very least, not accurate as per the dictionary! Sirkumsize 16:25, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
You have a point, somewhere. But, to me, uncircumcised does not suggest negative. Many people are happily undrugged, undamaged and unimpressed.
If we have to choose between circumcised/uncircumcised and damaged/intact, the first set seems to be less POV. -- Ec5618 17:03, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
But are as many people happy with being unmale (women), unwhite (black), unchristian (jewish)? Sirkumsize 02:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The point is that there is nothing inherent in the prefix "un-" that grants negative connotation to the word. Some "un-" words have a negative connotation, many others don't. There has not yet been shown any evidence that "uncircumcised", when used to describe a penis, has any negative connotation at all whatsoever. (These ridiculous arguments about the secondary meaning of "non-Jewish" or "non-Christian" are laughably inapplicable because those meanings could only possibly apply when describing a person, not a penis.) However, there is a mountain of evidencethat shows that it doesn't have any negative connotations, namely that it's the most common term, as well as the term used clinically. Furthermore, there is a mountain of evidence that the word "intact", when used to describe a penis, is limited in use almost exclusively to anti-circumcision advocates, and is therefore heavily bound up with strong biased connotations. Nohat 04:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Well that's debatable. I certainly don't think you made a strong case for the latter. Sirkumsize 03:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
You obviously know very little about how language actually works. Common usage is inherently what's correct. The term "intact", however, is as Rhobite says the approved vocabulary of the anti-circumcision movement. This claim is made patently obvious when one considers the fact that anti-circumcision activists call themselves "intactivists", a portmanteau of the word "intact" and "activists". The very fact that anti-circumcision activists bind themselves up in the term "intact" is extremely strong evidence that the word is loaded. Activists, by their very nature, use loaded words to evoke emotional responses to further their activist goals rather than use neutral, clinical terminology like "uncircumcised". Nohat 04:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Can you provide me with a clinical reference that uses the term uncircumcised? Sirkumsize 04:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
How about this one? [8] I'm sure I could find more... that one only took me about 30 seconds. Nohat 04:16, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Clinical references? Are you kidding? Here's a random one: [9]. 250 more examples on Pubmed for your perusal. Compare to 3 hits for "genitally intact". 9 hits (including a few off-topic) for the words "intact" and "circumcised" in the same abstract. Rhobite 04:19, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, it is quite clear that the term "uncircumcised" is the clinical term. Nohat 04:24, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Also I will point out that it is just your speculation that this is the reason the movement chose to be call intactism. Sirkumsize 04:15, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I have not made any such speculations—I have only noted that the fact that an activist group uses a particular word constitutes strong evidence that a word is loaded. Nohat 04:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Then provide me a reference that shows that words used by activist groups must be loaded. Otherwise your argument proves nothing. Sirkumsize 16:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Why don't you provide some references yourself? You've asked for references a few times but have yet to back up anything you say with anything other than a dictionary reference. Rhobite 18:22, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
I think the reference I provided was good enough don't you? Sirkumsize 03:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
What reference? You never provided a reference. Rhobite 03:56, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
It is difficult to find references for things that state the obvious because most people don't find it necessary to state things that are obvious for the simple reason that they are obvious. An essential aspect of activism is propoganda, and a key part of propoganda is use of slogans and virtue words to affect opinions. It is obviously a core element of anti-circumcision advocacy to use the word "intact" because it forms an appeal to emotion that something that is not intact is "damaged" and should therefore be opposed. Nohat 04:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Dictionaries don't exist because the meaning or connotation of words are obvious. What's obvious to you might not be obvious to me -- or correct. Please see wikipedia guidelines on original research. Sirkumsize 03:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Good lord. Sirk, when did you stop arguing that circumcision was the primary cause of anti-semitism? You're either clearly misguided or utterly out of touch with reality. I'll let you decide which. In either case, your POV-pushing is utterly inappropriate. That you've been called on it 15 dozen times weakens your case, rather than strengthens it. Tomer TALK 05:55, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

It shouldn't be my problem. Every single time I was called on it was a mistake. I provided my references. My goal here is to restore sanity to an encyclopedia that seems more interested in misusing words than use a correct that because so many POV pushers are endorsing circumcision that even neutrality is now being seen as POV. What's going on. If you want to imagine that I've lost my credibility go ahead. It won't be any different than imagining that dictionary.com gives another definition of the word uncircumcised! Sirkumsize 16:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Vote

The above issue has arisen time and time again. In a (probably naive) attempt to resolve it once and for all, let's try a vote, that we can simply refer back to. The terminology used on Wikipedia for a penis that is not circumcised should be:

Uncircumcised

  1. Jakew 11:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
  2. Ec5618 11:20, August 16, 2005 (UTC) Intact is correct aswell, but obvious POV.
  3. Nohat 17:02, 16 August 2005 (UTC) "Intact" is a loaded word only used by anti-circumcision advocates, and is inherently POV, as explained above. "Uncircumcised" is clearly the neutral, clinical, most common term used, for example, in medical journals.
  4. Jayjg (talk) 18:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC) See Nohat's comments. Also, "uncircumcused" is vastly more common, as a couple of Google searches will show, and thus should be used as per Wikipedia policy.
  5. Rhobite 18:16, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
  6. Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:19, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
  7. gargoyle888 03:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC) OK, both terms are "loaded" to some extent. I think that the most common word in use by the general public is the word "Uncircumcised." For that reason, I cast a vote in that direction. The purpose of the article is to convey substantive information about the procedure. As such, I think that the most readily understood word is "uncircumcised." The word "Intact" causes the new reader to stop while they figure out what is being said.
    I think too that Jake does have a valid point that "Intact" is not necessarily an accurate description. A penis that has never been circumcised may still be very far from an intact penis.
    I see nothing wrong with the inclusion of a paragraph that explains the use of a different term, I just would not use that different term in the main body of the text. (Sorry about the length of my vote.) (UTC)
  8. Agree with Nohat. Mark1 03:07, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  9. KHM03 13:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  10. Pretty sure my view is a "given", but figured I'd better vote anyways. Tomer TALK 18:42, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Intact

  1. Woodstone 15:18:10, 2005-08-16 (UTC) Intact is simply neutral; Natural might also be used; Uncircumcised is rather POV
  2. Liftarn 15:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
  3. Sirkumsize 16:05, 16 August 2005 (UTC) - Not only is uncircumcised POV, its literally not correct as per the dictionary definition. Even if the word intact is rejected, I feel that the word uncircumcised should be discarded, if for nothing else this reason.
  4. — Ŭalabio‽ 23:53:47, 2005-08-16 (UTC) — Uncircumcise literally means to sew back of a præpuce. Intact literally means not altered. — — Ŭalabio‽ 23:53:47, 2005-08-16 (UTC)

Other

  1. I believe that there are problems with both 'uncircumcised' and 'intact'. Both are skewed; only the direction is different. I think the best solution is to find a more neutral term than either 'uncircumcised' or 'intact'. My choices would be 'with a foreskin' or 'men with foreskins' and 'circumcised'. However, when quoting an author who uses another term, the author's choice of word should be respected. Michael Glass 11:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  2. DanBlackham 23:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC) - "Uncircumcised" is not a neutral word because it also means "unclean", "impure", and "heathen". No other normal, healthy part of the human body is described in terms of the amputation of that body part. Normal breast are not described as "unmastectomized". A normal clitoris is not described as "unclitoridectomized". Describing a normal intact penis in terms of the amputation of the foreskin indicates a strong cultural bias in favor of circumcision.

Who decides the subcategories around here!

Explain to me someone why the Circumcision Support Network link keeps on getting changed from its original subcategory of emotional support/support group to circumcision opposition. Since when can there be only two categories? Clearly this groups primary mission is emotional support? Also why can the only two categories be general information and opposition. What's going on here? Shouldn't there be a category for circumcision endorsement? Oh, yeah, I guess that would go under general information, because surely we all know that people that endorse circumcision are really just providing unbiased information, and organization that help people recovery from trauma are POV and trying to destroy the health of our babies or something? Give me a break. This is nothing but censorship and why should it be tolerated? Sirkumsize 02:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It's censorship to say that a work which claims that "circumcision is mutilation" is against circumcision? It seems more like pointing out the obvious to me. Rhobite 04:05, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Rhonite: Its POV pushing actually. Its not so much the question of is the site against circumcision, but why must it be put in that section and not another one? This is what is yet to be explained. Sirkumsize 16:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
It would be misleading to do otherwise. If there is a section labeled "Against circumcision" and this link is listed not in that section, then readers will assume that the link is not "against circumcision", which is false. Nohat 17:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
Isn't there a wikipedia policy against telling the reader what to think? The reader has the right to decide for themselves whether they think that a site is for or against circumcision without having the view forced on them. Are you afraid people will think its a pro-circ site? What about the right of the reader to be accurately informed that the site's purpose is emotional support? Are you trying to censor from Wikipedia the fact that circumcision has emotional impact in some cases? You are a POV pusher!
Labelling a site as against something is POV because its your own interpretation and not based on references, which is known as original research. It draws a conclusion! Sirkumsize 03:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Pointing out the obvious is not original research. We have categorized the links so that users will know whether the site they are visiting is anti-circumcision or not. Placing a site which is clearly anti-circumcision not under the anti-circumsion section is misleading. Nohat 03:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:External links: "One should attempt to add comments to these links informing the reader of what their POV is." Right now there is no warning that CIRP is a heavily biased site. We need either section headers, or individual labels on each link. Rhobite 03:12, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Sirkumsize does have a point here - 'general information' and 'opposition' are not the only categories. I've added "circumcision promotion" accordingly. In accordance with Wikipedia:External links, we ought to remove some 'opposition' links since "The number of links dedicated to one POV should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other." Nominations? - Jakew 09:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The division of references into general/pro/contra is good progress. I reassigned some of the refs to better fit this new grouping. −Woodstone 11:18:52, 2005-08-17 (UTC)
Unfortunately, your categories were incorrect. Csn-recovery.org is clearly anti, as discussed above, as is historyofcircumcision.net. To quote: "Although this site does not intend to take issue with contemporary claims for the "advantages of circumcision", I hope that the historical perspective it provides will encourage people to take a sceptical view of reports that it should be enforced on children as a preventive of AIDS, cervical cancer, urinary tract infections etc, and show them to be not so far removed from nineteenth century assertions that circumcision should be enforced to prevent or cure masturbation, syphilis, epilepsy, bed-wetting, hip-joint disease, hernia, pimples and other disorders too numerous to mention. And also to wonder whether it was ethically acceptable to inflict such a mutilation on helpless children even if such therapeutic claims were true." [10] (my emph)
In case anybody wonders, I had to remove the link for Flavius Josephus because of an erroneous spam filter. I've notified WikiEN-l about this, and hope to reintroduce it soon. - Jakew 12:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Can you explain why you disagree that the following are pro-circumcision?

And why do you disagree that the following are contra-circumcision?

What is the bias in:

Woodstone 12:25:56, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

A Judaism-based view of circumcision is pro-circumcision, though only for Jews. It could be argued either way. The Jewish Encyclopaedia times out when I try to load it, so I cannot comment. I agree with you regarding kensmen.com.
Bias is not the issue. Opposition to circumcision is the category and so must be the test, not bias. - Jakew 12:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Now you have me confused. If there is no bias, there can be no opposition or support. The two last references in bullets above show no visible bias to me. So they should not be classed as either pro or contra. −Woodstone 18:07:38, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

You have me confused. If a site which boldly states on its main page "Circumcision is Mutilation" and claims that people get "trauma" when they are circumcised as infants that they need to recover from as adults is not opposed to circumcision, it's hard to imagine what would be. Jayjg (talk) 18:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
My point is that its synthesis. Is it not possible for someone to believe circumcision is mutilation and yet support it. Is it not possible for someone to say circumcision causes trauma and yet support it. The only thing this shows it that you are POV making your own interpretation of sites and trying to discredit ones that threaten your own political agenda. The only sites that belong in circumcision opposition would be a site that specifically states that it is opposed to circumcision. Otherwise it belongs in a different category such as sites that claim circumcision is mutilation or sites that claim circumcision can cause trauma. Its arrogant to assume that your interpretation is obvious or the only possible one. Its against wikipedia policy. Sirkumsize 21:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

They are not saying that all circumcised people get traumatised. They just say that IF someone feels traumatised, they can help getting over it. Read their FAQ. I concede that the "Circumcision is Mutilation" statement may be interpreted as provocative (but justifiable). It is however the only place in the site that could be interpreted as contra. −Woodstone 19:26:19, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

The assumption that there is some sort of "trauma" to get over is anti-Circumcision. The bold statement that "Circumcision is Mutilation" is obviously anti-Circumcision. The fact that you think the latter is "justifiable" merely exposes your own bias in the matter. Jayjg (talk) 19:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The suggestion that there is no trauma associated with cutting off a normal, healthy part of a child's genitals (often without anesthesia) indicates a pro-circumcision bias. DanBlackham 23:09, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
The suggestion that adults need to "recover" from the "trauma" they received from minor surgery as days-old infants is far greater bias. Jayjg (talk) 23:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Well no, there really are men out there who feel that their infant circumcision was an assault. There are men who are angry that their penis has been, in some manner, reduced. Now, maybe you want to tell those men to "just grow up and get over it," but the fact of their existence is inarguable. It is the fact of their existence rather than the merits of their claim that is important to this article because it is precisely that person who is likely to hunt on WP looking for information about the procedure that he feels was unjustly inflicted upon him. That man, sissy though he may be, is your audience. He needs information that will help him. --gargoyle888 00:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
There are also men out there who believe that aliens are traumatizing them by reading their thoughts. The normal response is to try to cure their mental illness, not encourage them by helping them deal with this "trauma". Jayjg (talk) 00:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't believe that I used the word "encouraged." Though quite frankly, I don't believe that they should be discouraged either. If you feel that they are mentally ill, then perhaps this article can serve a very useful purpose in getting them started on the way to a cure. Right now, what I see you doing is removing anything that would admit of the "illness." If you want to put in the article that "There are sick men out there who want to bemoan an imaginary wrong." That would be better than denying their existence entirely.--gargoyle888 00:43, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Let's get this straight: First, I haven't removed anything at all from the article. Rather, I have agreed with the people who rightfully point out that a website which boldly states on its front page that "Circumcision is Mutilation" is, indeed, anti-Circumcision. Second, the purpose of links it not to help individuals get therapy, but to provide additional information from encyclopedic links which is not present in the article. Third, I haven't denied the existence of these individuals at all. And fourth, any individual who feels he is suffering from trauma because he was circumcised as an infant will also be anti-Circumcision, and will no doubt look in the anti-Circumcision links. Jayjg (talk) 01:06, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Tell me, is this site "general information" about water, or is it "water opposition"? Jakew 20:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

That some (few) people feel (subjectively) traumatised is not an assumption, but a fact. Trying to help them does not imply any POV. I have some trouble taking the "water" reference seriously. They are not even saying "water" a single time. Meanwhile we agree on a few of the other revisons of classification. Will you change them or shall I? −Woodstone 20:49:42, 2005-08-17 (UTC)