Talk:School choice

This article needs a complete rewrite, but it really needs an American who follows the debate closely to do so. --Robert Merkel

wheres the beef?

I'm an american, and the article looks pretty good to me. Do you have any specific objections, or has it already been rewritten?

Moved a paragraph or so in here

I read it a little more thoroughly, and decided to edit it a bit, and bring a couple things in here.

"Ultimately, politicians need votes, not money."

"After these limited programs have been established for some time, and society has sufficient confidence, then the experiment may be extended to the middle class. If the courts prevent full voucher programs, then limited ones using tax credits might still come into being. Tax credits have already been tested in U.S. courts, and would provide sufficient incentives to move many more children into private schools."

These seemed to be a bit too... insightful ;)

one more : "Also, these programs have substantial regulations on the private schools, and are justified by concerns for an equitable education."

JackLynch

Liberal political elites divide into politicans, and citizen activists such as the NAACP. These agree in theory that vouchers would not increase democratic instutitions. However the activists are coming under direct and increasing pressure from their traditional constiuencies, who are forming organizations such as Black Advocates for Educational Choice (BAEC).

Google finds no reference to "Black Advocates for Educational Choice" except for in our article. Does anybody know where they are, how large they are, and whether they indeed are "increasing pressure" on the NAACP? DanKeshet

In the U.S., many unaccredited public schools have per-student costs more than twice the tuition of accredited private schools in the same area. In many areas, the accredited private schools also have superior educational outcomes.

Something like this simply has to be cited, preferably to the original studies and not secondary sources. So we know what on earth they mean by "superior educational outcomes", etc. DanKeshet 01:13, Nov 10, 2003 (UTC)

The advantages to society are supposed to be several. First, people will be as well educated as possible. In particular, vouchers might easily help equalize educational outcomes for underprivileged children and middle-class children. Second, that the available money for education should theoretically tend to flow to the best available learning methods, and institutions and possibly even save a lot of money.

The first 'advantage' is simply an assertion. You could just as easily say, "the disadvantages to this are that people will not be as well educated as possible." If you want to say the more specific assertion, that it will equalize educational outcomes for underpriviliged children, than you should say so, but you should attribute the claim. The second claim definitely needs to be attributed. Could we include some information on who, precisely, advocates school choice. For example, the Brookings institute or John Lott would be better than "politically-impotent libertarians". DanKeshet

I removed a large part of the article. It seemed redundant and non-encyclopedic to me. Also, there were many claims bandied about without any evidence to back anything up. It looked very POV to me so I removed most vague, over-reaching/sweeping statements. If anyone is dissatisfied, don't be angry, jut revert my editions as I don't intend to go on a big debate about this. I just think the text in the article that I deleted did not have much substance. Dori 04:46, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

This is an extremely complex and controversial subject and much of what appears is way too simple (or shows strong bias toward one side of the debate or other) I've tried to suggest adding a link to the National Center for Study of Privatization of Education (NCSPE, <www.ncspe.org>) at Columbia University, which has a wealth of solid, balanced papers available on line. Bob McMeekin

picayune nitpick:

I do not understand the second word ["Moe"] of this parenthetical remark: "(See Moe, or ask accrediting organizations in your area)". MikeSchwartz

Based on the earlier mention "Moe and the CATO institute (see references, below)" it appears to be this book: John E. Chubb and Terry M. Moe, Politics, Markets, and America's Schools (Washington: Brookings Institution, 1990), p. 183. which I found as a footnote in a Cato article on the subject. Since the references do not appear in this wikipedia article despite being pointed to by the parenthetical remark I cite, it smells like a copyvio to me, but Googling the phrase didn't get any non-Wikipedia hits. Autiger 9 July 2005 05:05 (UTC)

Some more information on School Choice

(I am not a very good writer, so I figured I would add some information here and let others decide what is good enough to be added and what needs to be edited.)

School Choice in America comes in a few different forms. The different options could be put into these categories: Vouchers, Tax Credits, Charter Schools, Magnet Schools and even Home Schooling.

Vouchers: When the government pays tuition to a private school on behalf of the parents, this is usually referred to as a Voucher. Vouchers currently exist in Milwaukee, Cleveland, Florida, and, most recently, Utah and the District of Columbia. The largest and oldest Voucher program is in Milwaukee. Started in 1990, with a cap of no more than 1% of Milwaukee Public School students eligible, it has since expanded to (a cap of) 15%, or almost 15,000 students.

Tax Credits (or Tuition Tax Credits): A Tuition Tax Credit is similar to most other familiar tax credits. Certain states allow individuals and/or businesses to deduct a certain amount of their income taxes to donate to education. Depending on the program, these donations can either go to a public school or to a School Tuition Organization (STO), or both. The donations that go to public schools are often used to help pay for after-school programs, schools trips, or school supplies. The donations that go to School Tuition Organizations are used by the STO to create scholarships that are then given to students. These programs currently exist in Arizona, Florida, Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota and Pennsylvania.

Arizona has probably the most well known and fastest growing Tax Credit program. In the Arizona School Tuition Organization Tax Credit program individuals can deduct up to $500 and couples filing joint returns can deduct up to $625. About 20,000 children received scholarships in the 2003-2004 school year. And since the program has started in 1998, over 77,000 scholarships have been granted.

Charter Schools: Charter schools are public schools with more relaxed rules and regulations. These relaxed rules tend to deal with things like Teacher Union contracts and state curriculum. The majority of states (and the District of Columbia) have Charter School laws. Minnesota was the first state to have a charter school law and the first charter school in the United States, City Academy, opened in St. Paul, Minnesota in 1992.

In places like Dayton, OH, Kansas City, MO, Washington, DC more than 15% of public school students attend charter schools. Of the states, Arizona has the most charter schools per capita with over 20% of their public schools being charter schools.

Charter Schools can also come in the form of Cyber Charters. Cyber charter schools deliver the majority of their instruction over the Internet instead of in a school building. And, like Charter Schools, they are public schools, but free of many of the rules and regulations that public schools must follow.

Magnet Schools: Magnet schools are public schools that often have a specialized function (i.e. science, technology, art, etc.). These Magnet Schools (unlike charter schools) are not open to all children. Much like many private schools, the students must test into the school.

Home Education: When a child is educated at home, or is having his education instructed or directed primarily by a parent, then this is usually referred to as Home Education or Home Schooling. Home Education has obviously been around for a very long time, but in the last 20 years the number of children being educated at home has grown tremendously. The laws relevant to Home Education differ throughout the country. In some states the parent simply needs to notify the state that the child will be educated at home. In other states the parents are not free to educate at home unless at least one parent is a certified teacher and yearly progress reports are reviewed by the state. Currently there are over a million children being educated at home.

Uncategorized School Choice: There are still some examples that do not fit well in any of the previously mentioned categories. One such example is in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. In Edmonton each school principal has near total control of the school budget. That is, the principal does not need to go through some central bureaucracy to get things built or changed. This gives each school and principle more autonomy. This might be considered similar to Charter Schools, but these are traditional public with VERY traditional budgeting schemes.

More information on School Choice in the United States can be found at:

The ABCs of School Choice from the Friedman Foundation
Frequently Asked Questions from School Choice Indiana
School Reform News - August 2001 edition from The Heartland Institute
School Reform News also from The Heartland Institute

POV vs NPOV: Traditionally, school choice advocates have been on the right and school choice detractors have been on the left. So, those looking to find information to support School choice should look to these Think Tanks:

Those looking for information to oppose School Choice should look here:

I imagine that references are in order for many of the things I have stated. I will do this, just not at this moment.

Some Notes: Vouchers also exist in Vermont and Maine and have been in place since the 1800s. These programs are very small and serve only those students that live in rural areas that do not have a public school. Also, there are privately funded Voucher programs around the country. The two largest are the Children's Educational Opportunity (CEO) Foundation and the Children's Scholarship Fund. I will add more about these later.

Some Notes on School Choice around the World: Different School Choice programs have been implemented in Chile (as already noted), Australia, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, and the Netherlands. Hopefully I can give an introduction to these programs at a later date.

I hope this was helpful.

Ian Lewis

p.s. Someone was asking about "Black Advocates for Educational Choice". The original user was incorrect. I am assuming that they were referring to the Black Alliance for Educational Options. They were started in 2000 and have a number of chapters around the country.

Added two paragraphs

I added 2 paragraphs to the pro side. In the against side, the last reason is remarkably tenous, and in my opinion, outright communist/socialist. It sounds like, to me, it is saying that, well, kids under the voucher system will be better educated, get rich, and will then segregate themselves from the other kids, so better to not let them get rich in the first place. The only possible way that clause makes sense is if these formerly poor but now rich families would, had their not been vouchers, put their kids in a public school with rich and poor. Even that assumption is terribly weak. First, if they were rich, they would have the wealth to put their kids in a private school anyway. Second, if the first reason were untrue, and these rich parents actually did put their kids in a public school, it would be in an affluent public school, reflective of the affluence of the parents (or affluent surroundings), because the public school one attends is based on the residence of the parents. so, vouchers would not change anything either way. In fact, rich parents whose children already attend a successful public school in an affluent area would have no incentive to switch schools, unless truly better schools were available. If everyone gets a better education, then there will be no segregation. And, if you are rich, vouchers are not going to make a difference, because you can afford private schooling with or without the funds provided by vouchers. I deleted it because, as I demonstrated, the reasoning is atrocious and fallacious. Also, I think this article should be merged with school vouchers. Additionally, the first two paragraphs are terribly written; How can one be a "school choice proponent" if one does "not advocate it at all." It's an ambigous pronoun. I edited it a little.