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Edits reverted

The following edits by Phase4 made 6 May 2007, 14:36 have been reverted:

Removed Craig Williamson's name from the list of associates - no sources cited and several unproven theories on who killed Palme see these theories
Donald Acheson reverted to Donald Acheson because the existing wikipedia entry refers to a different Donald Acheson Suidafrikaan 18:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough on Craig Williamson: he's been reinserted under the "See also" section. On Donald Acheson, the TRC spells his name Aitchison. Maybe we should do a disambig on the Acheson spelling?Phase4 23:13, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Aitchison disambig: Good idea. Spelling on TRC records, have left it as is but is most likely a 'mis'-spelling by the transcriber. --Suidafrikaan 00:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted See also section There is no rule that I am familiar with that suggests this section must only consist of existing wikipedia articles; therefore I am re-inserting them because they provide the reader with the ability to see the CCB in a wider context.--Suidafrikaan 15:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Youth Power

Although Jeugkrag translates literally as Youth Power the official English name of the organisation was Youth for South Africa.Suidafrikaan 15:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the reference to Jeugkrag ("Youth for South Africa") and National Student Federation which can not by any stretch of the imagination be lumped with – or classified as "similar to" – the CCB (or even Third Force). A bunch of students informing on or influencing other students is completely different to violent operations conducted by trained and armed security force personnel (assassination etc.) or arms smuggling and chemical/biological weapons manufacture. --Deon Steyn 07:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Deon

Like you I was also an officer in the SADF. We have a lot of the context in our heads. Many who will be reading this article for the first time do not. To them it may seem as if murder was the only tool that the government used, which creates the impression that the brass were just a bunch of unsophisticated, boors who only knew how to use hammers to kill flies.

The "forerunners and contemporaries" section establishes that

There were many precedents for what the CCB was doing, not only in the military
The military used a wide range of well-conceived tactics (viz. NSF/JK) to pursue the SP's Total Strategy
Many of these were not conventional military operations.

I do agree with you about the way the original was phrased. The words "there were many other covert operations which were similar to the CCB" does make it sound as if JK et al were of the same type and magnitude as the CCB. What I am trying to get across is that the difference between the CCB and NSF/JK/IFF was one of tactics, not one of strategy. I will rephrase the original paragraph to bring this meaning out more completely.Suidafrikaan 18:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Third Force

Mandela first used the words third force in 1990, 4 yrs before he became president. see http://www.csvr.org.za/papers/papolv90.htm

=Amendments to edits by Bsrcrgrieve and others

The changes to the goals are an improvement
The comparison to SOE is unreferenced and casts a POV light on the organisation
It was not a long-term project but an organisation with a hierarchy and 10 divisions as indicated in Malan's submission to the TRC

Suidafrikaan (talk) 08:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suidafrikaan

Thanks - you are right it was an organisation - it was also a long term project which I will provide you with a reference to - but hey "Tomatoes" "Tomatoes". I don't think it puts the SOE in a bad light - they were after all both successful - also if you look at the SOE page I referenced you will see remarkable similarities. The structures and goals were clear and also similar to those of the SOE. I am in process of using this information and appreciate your diligence. The link I provided to Gen Malans submission should not be lost as I understand most documents are not generally (excuse the pun) available to the public through the TRC website. I also think your additions ( that operated beyond the stipulations of the Fourth Geneva Convention, resulting in the assassinations of non-combatants and civilians such as sociologist David Webster and Namibian activist Anton Lubowski; the attempted killing of cleric Frank Chikane and an unsuccessful assault on ex-Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari.) about the whole organisation operating outside boundaries is unfair unreferenced and uncalled for and puts those individuals and Special Forces members who actually conformed to the letter of the law in a bad light. Yes there were bad apples - there were in the ANC too - but not every individual was bad....one only has to read the full 28 pages from Gen Malan - as he did, I am simply trying to be factual without stirring others up...(if that is possible...).

Suidafrikaan, I hope you are ok with my contribution - I think it is valuable and the comparison of aims is necessary -

I am a beginner at editing, so thanks for your help in straightening things out editorially. I will get there in the end, necessity is the mother of invention.

I am grateful for your correction - thankyou / dankie!

BSRCR 08:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

BSRCR Thank you for your response.

I should clarify my remark "casting the CCB in a POV light" By comparing the CCB to SOE while calling the latter highly successful suggests that the CCB was also highly successful. Besides the fact that it is an unreferenced statement, judgements on the success of a military organisation are highly subjective regardless of the source making them. As you may have experienced, kill statistics may not be accurately estimated, recorded or communicated. Once they are reported in public there is invariably an element of propaganda involved. Second, when the actions of such a military organisation (the CCB, that is) are widely deeemed to be in gross violation of human rights, the notion of success cannot be dealt with without bias towards one side or the other.
On re-looking at it I think you are quite right that the intro is unfair to special forces members who responded to legal orders and acted within the prescripts of the 4th Geneva Convention. The article needs a formulation that is both brief and balanced. Perhaps we can work on something together, bearing in mind that many known operations targeted civilians and non-combatants and therefore fall outside of the 4th convention.
The Malan citation: I think it is preserved in footnote 12. If not i'd be happy to put it back.
Lastly perhaps we should discuss large revisions on this page before making them so that we can avoid this.Suidafrikaan (talk) 09:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suidafrikaan,

Thats fine - I will consider large edits carefully first, but in the interests of free speech I don't want to feel that I have to run them through a censor - .

I will communicate with you on what I think are important aditions or large amendments.

Keep up the good work of independence - its not easy I am sure!

BSRCR 09:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Suidafrikaan,

I would like to suggest we exclude the following in the intro:-

".....such as sociologist David Webster and Namibian activist Anton Lubowski; the attempted killing of cleric Frank Chikane and an unsuccessful assault on ex-Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari."

My reasoning is that these are not the full list of alleged assassinations or actions outside the 4th Geneva Convention, are covered elsewhere in the page, cast a poor light (on an already "damaged and discredited") subject and I don't feel fully appropriate as part of the introduction.

What do you think ?

BSRCR 09:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Geneva convetion changes

I agree. I would suggest the following:

change 1

Simplify the introduction:

The South African Civil Cooperation Bureau (CCB) was a covert, special forces organisation[1] during the apartheid era.

change 2

Remove the following because it is already in the establishment section (but retain footnote 2 as per change 3),

that had the Minister of Defence Gen Magnus Malan's authority and establishment aims [2], similar to those of the British Special Operations Executive SOE, to
* Infiltrate and penetrate the enemy; and * Gather Information;
* Disrupt the enemy.

change 3

Since these are clearly contentious, replace the following…

No assassinations were approved however rogue individuals operating within possibly under the guise of the CCB and other covert units operated beyond the stipulations of the Fourth Geneva Convention, resulting in the assassinations of non-combatants and civilians such as sociologist David Webster and Namibian activist Anton Lubowski; the attempted killing of cleric Frank Chikane and an unsuccessful assault on ex-Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari.

… with this under the Truth and Reconciliation Commission heading, using your footnote 2 as mentioned in change 2

In testifying before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission General Malan submitted that no assassinations were approved , implying that some individuals had operated outside of their mandate.

change 4

To accomodate change 3, rename the heading Truth and Reconciliation Commission finding to…

Truth and Reconciliation Commission

--Suidafrikaan (talk) 10:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've implemented change 4, tidied up the intro and quoted the evidence given to the TRC by Magnus Malan.PJHaseldine (talk) 14:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CCB2 Changes

Suidafrikaan,

I agree with all except

1. the positioning of the aims - it really should form part of the intro - it details the reason for the existence of the organisation.

2. The exclusion ,of the similarity to the British WW2 SOE, in the introduction, would not be reasonable. The aims and even the structures were very clearly similar - just look at the equipment of the SOE on their page, poisons, exploding pens, concealed landmines, bombs and assassination devices - in an extraordinary manner.

I concur and agree with your suggestions; if you would consider my ones above - I think we are there!

I think we may have much ground to cover in the future -

Kind regards

BSRCR 10:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Suidafrikaan,

I have put suggested change 3 into place.

Kind regards

BSRCR 10:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

P Haseldine Amendments

Copied to your talk page as well Patrick.

Amendments/edits to Civil Cooperation Bureau page.

Patrick,

Thanks for completing the suggested edits to the above page so well. We were trying to framework (somehow) the right words, which you then introduced - well.

A question might be - if Magnus Malan, in Para 15 said his orders to the SADF were to "destroy the terrorists, destroy their bases etc" then followed up by "./.....and I never authorised any member of the SADF to kill political opponents...etc ...."...is this not contradictory - or in your interpretation, would a political opponent who chose to associate with activies and actions that could be termed "terrorist/terrorism" then fall into the category mentioned first.

I am busy with a comparative analysis of justifications, activities, actions and morals between several past Government initiated covert groups. Primarily the CCB, SOS and the SOE. I have also been provided with almost unlimited access to the historical archives and information on the SOE.

Thanks again for a good edit on the above page.

BSRCR 20:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:PJHaseldine"

BSRCR 02:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Civil Cooperation Bureau

Edits reverted

See also ("compare to")

Youth Power

Third Force

=Amendments to edits by Bsrcrgrieve and others

Geneva convetion changes

change 1

change 2

change 3

change 4

CCB2 Changes

P Haseldine Amendments