Talk:Taiwan

Regarding the lead

I propose we add [[Political status of Taiwan|partially recognized]] [[state]] instead of just [[state]] in the lead, as the reality is that the Republic of China is only officially recognized by 24 states (that includes the Holy See). nat.utoronto 08:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I looked up the wikipedia entry for "partially recognized state" and found an article starting with "These lists of unrecognized or partially recognized countries give an overview..." but that gives no historical or legitimizing information about the term "partially recognized"? When I hear "partially recognized" it sounds like only part of the country is recognized, not the whole thing. Is "partially recognized" a legitimate term? If so, then I think it makes sense to add it. However, should we use [[partially recognized state|partially recognized]] [[state]] so that people can find out what "partially recognized" means? I think we should also have a link to "Political status of Taiwan" or perhaps "Legal status of Taiwan", but I'm not sure how we can include both.Readin (talk) 14:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The 23 states that give formal recognition rather understates the situation. Many states in practice treat Taiwan as independent but do not give formal recognition because they would mainland China would break off relations. The Peoples Republic is too important for most states to not have relations with them. ROC- Taiwan has a fully functioning government that has full control of its territory (apart from a completely empty claim to the mainland). It's a state and recognition is merely the icing on the cake.Dejvid (talk) 16:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Or we can try: The '''Republic of China''' ([[Abbr]]: ROC; {{zh-tshtw|t={{linktext|中|華|民|國}}|s={{linktext|中|华|民|国}}|hp=Zhōnghuá Mínguó|w=Chung-hua Min-kuo|tp=Jhonghuá Mínguó}}) is a [[East Asia]]n[[state]] with [[Political status of Taiwan|limited international recognition]]. But I still like the first one better. nat.utoronto 18:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I like your newer proposal better, though I would prefer to keep the previous "state in East Asia" wording.The '''Republic of China''' ([[Abbr]]: ROC; {{zh-tshtw|t={{linktext|中|華|民|國}}|s={{linktext|中|华|民|国}}|hp=Zhōnghuá Mínguó|w=Chung-hua Min-kuo|tp=Jhonghuá Mínguó}}) is a [[state]] in [[East Asia]] with [[Political status of Taiwan|limited international recognition]]. but I could live with either of them. I did a quick google on "partially recognized" to see if maybe it is a well known diplomatic term that I just wasn't aware of, but I didn't find evidence of that. At least to my American English ears "limited international recognition" sounds more correct. The recognition is "limited" to certain countries. But those recognitions are not "partial".Readin (talk) 19:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If you check the discussion archives, it was agreed that the introductory sentence would say nothing about Taiwan's political status. User:Jiang and I agreed on this consensus. All the information about the Republic of China's political status is already overly explained in the later paragraphs. Please do not open another can of worms. Allentchang (talk) 00:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Editors change and consensus can change. Can you at least provide a link to the archive we should look at or perhaps some explanation of reasoning behind the previous consensus?Readin (talk) 01:46, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Readin. Editors change and consensus can change. As well, the introductory paragraphs are suppose to summarize the article. Clearly stating the reality within the lead sentence helps to do that. As well, there have been efforts to add in "partially recognized" in front of "state" in the lead. by adding "with limited international recognition", it is more accurate and helps to simply define and explain the reality and the facts of the region, and of the state. nat.utoronto 07:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The reality is that it is fully independent from China yet the article writes about if as having continuity with the pre war Chinese republic despite there being little territorial overlap. You can't just unpick one aspect of the consensus and leave the rest intact.Dejvid (talk) 08:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The Republic of China is sovereign and independent from the People's Republic of China, yet it is a continuity of the Republic of China before the Nationalists party and the Government fled to Taiwan. The Governmental system is essentially the same as the one on the mainland, it's just now that the People and the Government are allowed to push its full democratic mandate set out under the Constitution of the Republic of China; the Constitution of the Republic of China is the same as before, before the Nationalists lost the mainland; the National Anthem is still the same. and the list continues nat.utoronto 13:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

"...despite there being little territorial overlap. You can't just unpick one aspect of the consensus and leave the rest intact." But you've done just that, you picked on aspect (territory) to emphasize over the rest. This article is about a government, not about any particular country. The government moved, but it remained the same government. Chiang was still the dictator. The symbols such as the constituation, anthem, and flag remained the same. The legislature stayed the same. Nothing internal to the government changed, only the people and places governed changed. Since the ROC was not a democracy, changing the people governed did not significantly affect the identity of the government, much as my identity would not change if I sold my house and moved across town to a new house. Or perhaps more appropriately, a slaveholder's identity would not change if he lost his plantation and slaves but managed to acquire a new plantation with different slaves.Readin (talk) 14:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

"But you've done just that". Sure, that's exactly what I intend to do. If there is an intact consensus then I'll respect that. If someone choses to overturn one aspect then I'm free to overturn other aspects. As for your slave owner example that holds true only if you take the point of view of the slave owner. From the point of view of the slaves the plantations are quite different. The logic of what you are saying is that now that Taiwan is a democracy it has become a new state. That would be a valid point of view and you should hold to it, to be consistent. Dejvid (talk) 17:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

If an aspect of a consensus is overturned, it should be overturned by consensus. Before changing the opening sentence, we discussed the change and reached a consensus. If you want to overturn something else, particularly something as large as the topics and structures of the several articles, then consensus should first be reached.

You are right that two entirely separate plantations are involved. In the analogy, the plantations are China and Taiwan. The owner, the Master ROC, first runs the plantation called China. He acquires a second plantation called Taiwan and shortly thereafter loses possession of his first plantation. We don't write two articles about Mr. ROC, one concerning his life while he ran one plantation and then another for the time spent running the second plantation. We just write one article about Mr. ROC. But we do write separate articles for the separate plantations. See China and Taiwan.

Your comment about the ROC changing when it became Democratic is insightful. In fact I think that marks a more significant change in Taiwan's history that it is given credit for. In a sense, that marked the first time in 100 years when Taiwanese were running Taiwan instead of the country being run by foreigners. However, this article is not about Taiwan, it is about the ROC. From the ROC's perspective it was simply an evolution, not an identity change. The name, constitution, flag, components, remained largely the same. Over time the ROC is changing. But if all changes are peaceful and slow, at what point do we say it has a new identity? Readin (talk) 18:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I must apologize - I expected you to be inconsistent and you're not. Further, I can see the way you have of looking at things has advantages. However it is not how county pages are normally done on Wikipedia. The pages are not simply about regimes but more about nation states. The problem of trying to treating the pre war republic as being the same as the republic that now governs Taiwan is seen when you look at the economic section - the two bits bear no relation to each other. Even the most dictatorial regime will be fundamentally change if it finds itself governing a different people - it will be faced with different problems and that will change it.Dejvid (talk) 09:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

As well, democracy was always a part of the basic and constitutional laws of the Republic of China, the only difference between now and when the Chiangs were in power, is the 50ish year old martial law that basically suspended several "democratic" parts of the constitution , which was repealed in the late 80s, early 90s. nat.utoronto 02:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing we're seeing the problem Allentchang referred to. The opening paragraph is growing as information about the independence debate is added. Recent additions include

multi-party democratic

and

Though it still formally claims to be the government of all China, both elected presidents have held the view that it is a sovereign and independent country and there is no need for a formal declaration of independence.

In my view the opening paragraph should cover information that draws the reader's interest and that identifies the subject of discussion. I think the addition of "multi-party democratic" is justified on the grounds that whether a government is elected is essential to its nature. If you were to try to understand a government's behavior on any subject, the first thing you would want to know is whether the government is elected.

However, I'm less inclined to agree with the addition of the statement about claims to China. Taiwan's official claim on China has become more of a footnote than a central issue. The hostilities between Taiwan and China are certainly a big thing, but they result from China claiming Taiwan, not the other way around. I think it is important to note that both Taiwanese presidents, and the only two elected ROC presidents, do not agree with the claim, but I think it is important to note it in a detail paragraph, not in the opening paragraph where the claim to rule all of China isn't worth mentioning.

I do think we should move it.

Can we agree for the near future that significant (other than grammar or spelling) edits to opening will be discussed here first to avoid "mission creep" in the first paragraph?Readin (talk) 13:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

And within 4 minutes of my post, "multi-party democratic" became "that has evolved from a one-party authoritarian state with full global recognition into a multi-party democratic state" and the words "mostly unofficial international recognition" were added, affirming my concern about the growth of the paragraph.

To set an example I hope others will follow, I'll propose trim down a section I worked on.

Established in 1912, the Republic of China encompassed much of mainland China. The island groups of Taiwan (Formosa), the Pescadores were added to its authority in 1945 at the end of World War II. These island groups, together with Kinmen and Matsu became the full extent the Republic of China's authority after 1949 when the Kuomintang lost the Chinese Civil War to the Chinese Communist Party and the People's Republic of China (PRC) was founded in mainland China.

can be trimmed to

Established in 1912, the Republic of China once governed mainland China. Since the loss of mainland China to to the Chinese Communist Party in the Chinese Civil War, the ROC has ruled the island groups of Taiwan (Formosa), the Pescadores, Kinmen and Matsu.

It's a little awkward mainly because I've tried to avoid words that would suggest Taiwan was part of the rule before, or that Taiwan is not part of China. But I think the end of WWII and the founding of the PRC can be excluded as not central to ROC identity. The territories controlled are pretty significant though.Readin (talk) 13:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

About the map of 'Constitutional administrative division of the Republic of China'

In this map, some area administered by the Democratic People's Republic of Korea and claimed by the Republic of China is missing. You can compare the map http://mail.lnes.tp.edu.tw/~miriamlou/DSC04892.JPG (Map of Northeasten China, published in Taiwan) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanggang (Location Map of Ryanggang Province, DPRK) Can someone fix the map? Nabimew (talk) 19:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Esperanto

Hello,

Here is the status of interwikis for Taiwan and Republic of China with the esperanto language:

• en:Republic of China -> eo:Tajvano
• en:Taiwan -> nothing

This should be :

• en:Republic of China -> eo:Respubliko Cxinio
• en:Taiwan -> eo:Tajvano

Can somebody with suficient rights change it? 62.16.186.192 (talk) 06:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Those may be the correct Esperanto translations for the concepts of "Republic of China" and "Taiwan" but unfortunately the article "Respubliko Ĉinio" doesn't exist and the article "Tajvano" describes the Republic of China, not just the island.

Ili estus la korektaj translacioj Esperantaj de la konceptoj "Republic of China" kaj "Taiwan," sed bedaŭrinde la artikolo "Respubliko Ĉinio" ne ankoraŭ ekzistas kaj la artikolo "Tajvano" priskribas la Respublikon Ĉinion, ne nur la insulon.

--- Hiyayaywhopee (talk) 22:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Change to multi-party democracy

Hello,   I'm particularly interested in the process of democratization of ROC. There seems to be little/no information about this in the article, although it seems to be very important (the article states that there was a shift from authoritarian rule to pluralism, but provides NO additional information). Can someone who has info or is knowledgeable about the subject please contribute to the article? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.17.59.251 (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This is precisely the reason that one should not include any adjectives or modifiers in the lead sentence, but certain people don't understand the consequence so we have to live with the consequence. Allentchang (talk) 15:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually having that information in the lead sentence is extremely important because it's not covered anywhere else in the article. If we didn't have it in the lead we wouldn't have it at all - which would be a terrible omission. The anonymous poster is right that we should have more information the topic. If said reader is still around, I suggest he look at the History of the Republic of China article for some additional details. Readin (talk) 22:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Ehh hang on mix up between mainland and taiwan

The Republic of China on mainland China went through periods of warlordism, Japanese invasion, civil war between the Kuomintang and the Communists, rapid economic growth and industrialization, and democratization

Yeah, eh, the last three things - "growth, industrialization and democratization" - none of those occured in the mainland for the Republic of China. Only on Taiwan. much later after 1950's, which, I assume is not mainland. Tourskin (talk) 04:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

maybe it's because of the CIVIL WAR AND WWII HAPPENING DURING THAT TIME. Dude, don't just look at one little thing, look at the big picture. Rarukan (talk) 21:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liu Tao (talk • contribs)

The text in the article has been changed. Regardless of the cause (civil war, Japanese invasion, internal divisions within government, whatever) we should be documenting what happened, not what might have happened had the situation been different.Readin (talk) 02:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

ROC's territorial claims

What are the ROC's current territorial claims? I find contradicting information at different Wikipedia pages. In particular, I find information about claims in Outer Mongolia confusing.

Yi ge Zhongguo states:

Legally speaking, the Republic of China continues to maintain its version of the "One China" principle by officially (but no longer actively) claiming sovereignty over all of its territory before 1949, including Mongolia.

History of the political divisions of China#Republic of China agrees:

Regions (地方 Dìfāng)
Outer Mongolia	蒙古	Měnggǔ	蒙 měng	Kulun (Ulaanbaatar)

Zhonghua Minguo#Political status agrees:

Thus, the claimed area of the ROC continue to include Mainland China, several off-shore islands, Taiwan, Outer Mongolia, northern Burma, and Tuva (now Russian territory).

On the other hand, Republic of China-Mongolia relations states:

The Republic of China's Ministry of the Interior then decided to discontinue including Mongolia on its official maps of Chinese territory, and on 3 October 2002, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced that it would recognise Mongolia's independence.

Note that it said that it was going to recognise Mongolia's independence. This doesn't mean that it ever happened. So has it happened yet?

List of unrecognised countries: Mongolia was removed from the list of partially unrecognised countries as of [1] with the edit summary

rv - we have a source stating that the roc recognized mongolia starting in 2002

but it doesn't tell what that source would be.

Does anyone know whether ROC currently recognises Mongolia or not? (212.247.11.156 (talk) 11:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC))

Under constitutional law in the Republic of China, the answer is no. Unofficially, under the presidency of Chen Shui-bian they have established unofficial diplomatic relations with Mongolia. nat.utoronto 21:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Altering the former territorial claim is a sensitive subject as it would bring up the issue of formally renouncing the claim over the entire mainland. As a result, no formal changes have been made. As Nat has mentioned, the Chen administration has pretty much gone as far as they can go in "recognizing" Mongolia without pushing for a formal constitutional change. The attitude of the incoming Ma administration on this issue is unclear at this time. Ma is a proponent of the intentionally ambiguous "One China, Differing Interpretations" policy. The exact definition of ROC territory used by Ma is also likely to change depending upon whether he tries to appeal to the more conservative old guard in the KMT, or the younger generation in the party who tend to be more Taiwan-centric. So far, Ma has been playing a balancing role between the two factions. -Loren (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Found an article from 2002 on the subject: [2]. Support for opening the representative office in Mongolia was pretty bipartisan. -Loren (talk) 23:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

There isn't, and can't be, any "official" territorial denouncement. This "official" kind of thing is impossible in the RoC. The constitution can't be changed because of both internal politics (blue vs green) and external politics (changing the constitution to remove territorial claims might aggravate the PRC towards thinking it was a step towards independence, and thus provoke a war). Thus, in many, many areas the whole constitutional issue is just sort of side-stepped. Various RoC law making organs (either the executive or legislative branch have passed laws, made statements, etc) have denounced almost all territorial claims except to what they currently hold.

Since a lot of these issues have been proclaimed by the executive branch over the last eight years, it will be interesting if any of them are revisited after the next president takes office (who is from the opposite party, the party that originally made the claims). I doubt it. What's done has been done and no politicians seem eager to revisit these issues or make these land claims anymore. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Ironically, this territorial residue has been used by the DPP administration to block cross-strait trade and direct links. For example, RMB cannot be freely exchanged with NTD because it is, in legal statutes, the "currency of the Mainland Area" that cannot be exchanged in the "Taiwan Area" instead of "foreign currency" that is under no such restriction. In the same way, the law is used to regulate residency rights for mainland spouses and visits by mainland tourists (officially regulating the flow of goods and people within 2 "areas" of the Republic of China) more stringently than "foreign" spouses and tourists.[3]

A recent legislative proposal forwarded by the KMT is to have RMB simply redefined as "foreign currency".--Jiang (talk) 16:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The KMT willing to admit that China is foreign? That really does show the power of money over politics.Readin (talk) 19:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not always about the money. For example, millions of soldiers who were loyal to the KMT died or who lost their families forever, fought because most of them believed that KMT was China. Yes PRC is foreign to KMT but I wouldn't say that about China. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyl (talk • contribs) 16:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

(cur) (last) 2008-04-04T04:57:11 Golbez (Talk

— contribs) (14,118 bytes) (rm mongolia - i found a source saying it has been actually recognized since 2002) (undo)

[4] But it doesn't tell what that source would be. (Stefan2 (talk) 20:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC))

Good Article Reassessment

The GA status of this article is under evaluation. See[[5]]. Majoreditor (talk) 11:38, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

interwiki

Please add gd:Poblachd na Sìne to this article, Thanks --84.63.21.106 (talk) 09:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

'Five Races under One Union'

I have yet to come across any scholarly literature that uses this translation of wuzu gonghe; I have changed this to 'Republic of Five Races'. Cf. Harris, P., 'Chinese Nationalism: the State of the Nation', The China Journal, No. 38 (Jul., 1997), pp. 121-137; Leibold, P., 'Competing Narratives of Racial Unity in Republican China', Modern China, 2006:32. The previous translation is more appropriate to the original usage of the phrase in the 18th century than with the context of late 19th/early 20th century nationalist republicanism. Cripipper (talk) 17:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

If you read Lin Yutang's early 20th century historic novel Moment in Peking, a Manchurian servant named Paofen said that they are all five races living in one union under the Republic. According to Lin Yutang, the concept of "five races under one union" also is referenced in the Dream of the Red Chamber. Strictly speaking, "gonghe" is too vague to be equated with the word "Republic" as it could mean "unity" or "togetherness." "Gongheguo" is more concrete in describing a Republic. Once I get the exact quotation from Lin Yutang's novel posted here, I will revert the reference. Allentchang (talk) 15:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Map

Since the PRC map was changed to reflect the PRC's claims, should the ROC map be changed to reflect the ROC's claim over the mainland? T-1000 (talk) 02:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The PRC is actively pushing it's ambitions, while the ROC's claims are a relic of the past that might have been repealed absent U.S. pressure. It therefore makes more sense to draw attention to PRC's irredentist imperialism than to the ROC's lip service to history. The ficticious administrative divisions of the ROC are addressed in a map later in the article, and thereby provided a map of the claims. But showing the claims in the main map would be confusing because they are so much larger in size than the actual ROC, and new visitors might think the former ROC is the current ROC. Readin (talk) 03:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Lol, PRC imperialism...I hope you're not American, because if you are and you said that with a straight face.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlad Dracula (talk • contribs) 08:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Splitting Proposal

In light of the recent debacle regarding pages on China, I am proposing that we split pages on Chinese topic as follows:

Proposed Name	Topics covered
China	Geography of China (no actual text, but links to its counterparts at the Taiwan and PRC article), the different definitions of what area constitutes "China", the constituent nations that lies within it (PRC, Taiwan), cultures and customs
China (Historical)	History of China, including its successive dynasties, areas ruled (there are wild variations between dynasties) with a cutoff point at the end of the Qing Dynasty
People's Republic of China	People's Republic of China as it stands today
Republic of China (1912)	ROC as it existed before it retreated to Taiwan
Republic of China	ROC after its retreat to Taiwan (aka: Taiwanese Government)

The effects on this page will be as follows: any materials within the ROC page that deals with topics or issues before the ROC moved to Taiwan will be moved to Republic of China (1912), and any materials that deals with ROC as it exists today (post-retreat to Taiwan), will remain here, and this page will deal with ROC issues after its move to Taiwan.

Please discuss the issue here. Thanks! Arbiteroftruth (talk) 23:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

We won't be the first, in Spanish Wikipedia there are Republic of China and Republic of China in Taiwan and in the French one there is Republic of China and Republic of China (Taiwan), too (the French is a little confusing). Schröe! (talk) 10:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

There is already a page entitled Taiwan after World War II which used to be called "Republic of China on Taiwan." How would that page fit into the scheme of things?Ngchen (talk) 12:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that the historical Republic of China should be separated out - it's too messy to try to fit both onto one page. John Smith's (talk) 22:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Make it Republic of China 1912-1949 or Mainland China 1912-1949 and the other Republic of China on Taiwan or Republic of China (Taiwan). I agree though, there needs to be a split 202.132.6.251 (talk) 02:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree. Why must there be a split?! You don't see the other nations split, do you?! It's always been the Republic of China from 1911 to now. There needs not be a split. So what if currently the RoC only possess Taiwan? The US at first possessed only 13 colonies, and now it's 50 states. Why don't you split the US too? Liu Tao! (talk) 7:15, 22, May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liu Tao (talk • contribs)

I don't think there has to be a split, but the comparison to the U.S. doesn't work. The U.S. grew from the original 13 colonies to include 50 states over the course of more than 175 years, and it still includes those original thirteen colonies that make up a non-insignificant portion of the entire country.

On the other hand, the ROC went from ruling China to ruling Taiwan in only 5 years, and the territory that is common to the earlier and later rules is only some islands that are tiny even when compared to Taiwan which is Tiny when compared to China.

The country that was ruled did not remain the same, it changed suddenly between 1945 and 1949. But the government remained the same, and the article is about the government, so I think having one article works. In fact if the ROC article were to split it would make more sense to split it into it's authoritarian and democratic eras.Readin (talk) 23:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The republic that was founded in 1912 was meant to rule mainland China, and currently it has no intention to rule mainland China or overthrow the current government of China. The US did not see such significant change of government in its history as ROC did. --K kc chan (talk) 22:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see a reason for the split. The ROC has been a continuous state, with its constitution from 1948 still in power. The only thing that made a difference authoritarian/democratic difference was Chiang Kai-shek's "illegal" amendment to the constitution. Otherwise everything else has been in place since 1948. Blueshirts (talk) 06:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The better is split em: there are different flags, nations, territory, capital, recognition. Both don't have nothing to do with:

• 
  ROC - teritory
• 
  ROC (Taiwan) - teritory
• 
  ROC - flag
• 
  ROC (Taiwan) - flag
• ROC - capital
  ROC - capital
• 
  ROC (Taiwan) - capital

You don't really know anything, do you? Of those 2 flags, the 5 striped flag was changed to the "Blue sky white sun" a long long time ago before the civil war even started. Also, so what with the change of Capitals? Many nations changed their capitals over time. Look at Germany, during the Cold War, it's capital was switched repeatedly from Bonn to Berlin and from Berlin to Bonn. Also, you don't see them making two seperate pages of Germany before the resurrection and after, do you?

Also, another point, throughout the history of the UK, it's size varied vastly throughout history, when it gained and lost its overseas territory. And the US too, it itself had a civil war, they don't have seperate pages talking about the US "before civil war" and "after civil war", do you? Liu Tao 06:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

To my knowledge the only significant change that happened was that the ROC (the government) went from being the government of one country to being the government of another. Bobby Knight coached basketball for Army, Indiana, and Texas Tech, but he only has one article. He doesn't have separate article for the time he spent with each team. My feeling is that ROC should be the same. The people and country being governed may have changed, but the government remained the same.

If anyone can provide details of extensive changes to the ROC government when they became exiled in Taiwan, I'll certainly be willing to reconsider.Readin (talk) 14:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

RoC has always have had one government, and has always been a nation. We are not exiled to Taiwan, how can we be exiled into our own province?! We merely retreated to Taiwan, which was our only province we had left that we could hold on to. Taiwan has been a part of the RoC since 1945, and it still is now. Liu Tao 14:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

What the ROC calls Taiwan (we call know they call it a "province") isn't the issue. Pre-1945 ROC and post-1945 ROC are almost completely different in terms of its countries, regions, possessions or whatever you want to call the people who were forced to submit. That is why we have an article about the government, because the possessions (people and places) mastered by the government changed even while the government remained the same. Readin (talk) 19:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the ROC has had multiple governments of different lineages. Republican era history was really messy. For example, the Yuan Shikai/Beiyang Government existed from 1912-1928. The KMT government, which was formed to challenge the Beiyang Government, has existed from 1922 to the present. Then there were Japanese puppet governments, and offshoots of the KMT government. And Communist governments.--Jiang (talk) 22:15, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The ROC is not a government in exile. It lost most of its territory after the civil war but it still governs Kinmen and Matsu since its establishment. One of the reasons why Chiang Kai-shek refused to retreat from these islands despite all the military difficulties was because he wanted to avoid the ROC being argued into becoming a government in exile.

Also, ROC didn't become from being the government of one country to another. Taiwan was not a country. It was a colony of Japan. The legal status of Taiwan immediately after the Japanese handover was not clear, but it was clear that Taiwan didin't become a country by virtue of that act.

I think that by spliting the article Wikipedia can be argued into taking a position that the ROC is a different government after the civil war. That is a contentious view. I don't believe the approach is consistent with the NPOV policy.--Pyl (talk) 05:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

lol, the five colored flag was already abolished in 1928, twenty years before the KMT retreated to Taiwan. I see the same egregious error in the split spanish wiki article. Blueshirts (talk) 07:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Aye, and god knows how many different flags the US had throughout it's history. Literally speaking, it's flag changed everytime a new state is added. Liu Tao 07:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no comparison between the ROC and the US. The change in territory over three years was total. The point made above that Chiang Kai-shek refused to retreat from Kinmen and Matsu for fear of being deemed a government in exile rather proves the point. If only Kinmen and Matsu saves it from being so regarded then those islands are nothing more than fig leaves hiding reality. But the most important issue is that the ROC in 1948 ruled a completely different set of people than it had before 1945. Initially an entirely alien imposition it has been shaped by the Taiwanese realities. Even before it became democratic it had to take into account of the wishes of the Taiwanese people because ultimately all governments must do so to some extent. -Dejvid 10:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

An *almost* completely different set of people. There were people living in Kinmen and Matsu before 1948. Nevertheless, I think you raised a valid point even though I am not sure if your point can eliminate all potential contention associated with a split of the article.--Pyl (talk) 12:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if the word "alien" is a suitable word to describe ROC's governance of Taiwan. Taiwan was part of China before the Japanese colonial rule and what Japan did in handover was to give effect of the term that Taiwan was to be handed back to China. If KMT didn't lose the civil war, I wonder if people would still use the word "alien" to describe KMT in Taiwan. Is the PRC an alien imposition on Hong Kong and Macau?--Pyl (talk) 13:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It most certainly is no longer alien -that was my point. Just by the fact it governed Taiwan it was changed, that is to say Taiwan changed it. Had it continued to rule mainland China the effect of a small offshore island would have been insignificant.Dejvid (talk) 19:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

A practical point. How can you sensibly write a section on the economy of the ROC without a split?Dejvid (talk) 10:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no such article. I believe an article called the economy of the ROC was renamed to the economy of Taiwan. This article talks about Taiwan before and after the ROC.--Pyl (talk) 12:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

But there is a section headed economy in this article - not a lot of continuity there.Dejvid (talk) 19:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Strongly Disagree: I think it will be a good idea of making 2 history pages (history of ROC before 1949, history of ROC before), but since its considered the same entity the splitting is a bad idea.

merge with China

China should redirect here.--4.245.72.201 (talk) 18:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)