Talk:National Development Front

This document is trying to be hijacked by two opposing views. I think it is better to have a session about what is NDF by the "NDF people" and What critics says about by its "critics". The information in WIKI should be neutral to the readers for its own neutrality. It is not a place for war. The issue on Marad is controversial. It is true that Five brothors have brutally killed in Marad-2, but it should be read with that in Marad-1, on which the opposite also lost their life. If something happens(Prays not to happen) in future then we shouldn't treat it as a seperate one. We should keep all in a sequense and treat it together to bring the culprits to account and bring the society to harmony before the Marad-1. Let the views talk each other and indian democracy is powerful enough to give the opposing views have its own importance. Let wiki be neutral.

by anonymous

I've rewritten the article today, keeping closely to what has been published by reliable sources and focusing it on the National Democratic Front. There is also a redirect here from National Development Front at the moment, but that is not substantiated by the sources I've seen. --Mereda 15:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Copied from User:Mereda talk page -

The Rss/BJP/Muslim league were not involved in the Marad massacre, it was the RSS/NDF and the Araya Samajam. These terrorists massacred five Hindus(and muslims in 2002) at the beach, the police killed one terrorist in crossfire(a lie), the terrorists hid inside a mosque. When the police tried to get them, a mob of the terrorists wives surrounded the Mosque, barring entry.The police later found bombs, and swords there. By then, the Araya Samajam terrorists and VHP terrorists had evicted all terrorists from the area, and as of now, I dont think the terrorists have been able to return, even with pleas from the Communist party.Bakaman 17:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

sabrang

Its an unreliable partisan org and their page reads like SIMI propaganda.Bakaman 00:31, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

All organizations, newspapers and publications are in some way partisan. If you think [1] is SIMI propaganda, well then the definition of 'SIMI propaganda' is stretched as widely that virtually any written text can fall under that definition.

The problem is not that a source can be politically tilted. The question to maintain a NPOV outlook is to be able to weed out POV formulations in sources to write an NPOV encyclopediatic tone in an wiki article. It would not be ok to write the article on BJP relying only/mainly on Congress sources, and neither should the article on Congress be based on RSS/BJP-affiliated websites. That I cannot understand in this case, is why you find it objectionable to mention that NDF is in conflict not only with the Hindu groups but also with the majority of the Muslim community in Kerala? The only explanation I could come up with is that it spoils your own communal agenda of picturing all local political conflicts in India as parts of greater epic battle between Hindus and non-Hindus. --Soman 15:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Well its obvious the NDF is in conflict with Muslims in Kerala. The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorist maniacs. Sabrang is not a reliable source, its partisan.Thats why I only used mainstream sources for the article. I myself quoted the CBI report but I think it hurt you to see fellow anti-Hindus getting smacked by the rule of law. I dont find it objectionable to show the NDF is in conflict with local Muslims (after all Kerala is home to four groups: Christians, Muslims, communists, and Hindus). My communal agenda? I'm sorry that I cant be an apologist for the genocide of innocent fishermen and have to call a terrorist a terrorist. Perhaps you didnt realize Hindus and Muslims are not "classes" and that Terrorists are no proletariat.Bakaman 17:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You seriously need to study Marxist concepts of class, before making half-baked analogies. --Soman 18:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

"Epic battles between Hindu and non-Hindus"? "Communal agenda"? Oh no, Sonia Gandhi maine maaf karo.Bakaman 18:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

battle, not battles. There is a difference in meaning. --Soman 18:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no organisation named National Democratic Front in Kerala. i think the user had given partisan data and is not relevent. No government or any enquiry commmison reported NDF worked behind Marrad massacre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sm ashiq (talk • contribs)

If that's true, then why did you create the article? [2] --Sigma 7 08:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Move

If you read the Malayalam text on Image:Kerala2006_(18).JPG, the name of the organization is actually National Development Front. --Soman 15:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Support - correct name.Bakaman 17:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no organisation named National Democratic Front in Kerala. It is National Development Front. Please move to the later.

I've completed the page move. Cheers. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

some points

• Terrorism, is a word to avoid. The NDFFare undoubtably involved in political and communal killings, but that is not the same as being a terrorist in its encyclopediatic definition. See similar arguments about Shiv Sena at List of terrorist organizations.
• ISI connections? Needs to be backed up by other quotes than from politicians. The standard explanation that all evil is a foreign import is mainstay in Indian politics, and accusations of ISI links to quite widely distributed. (Likewise allegations of RAW connections in Bangladesh).
• Role in Muslim communal politics in the state? See for example [3]
• Regarding political alliance building, [4].

--Soman 18:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Similar arguments? Especially because you were the only person making the argument. They were implicated in the massacre of Hindus, and in rampant assassinations of their political enemies.Bakaman 18:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

--Sundaram7 06:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear editors, please see the edited pages in this articles. May be you are not aware of this organisation in deep. I have gathered the information from reliable medias and sources. NDF is accused of terrorism and killing innocents. But it is not in the agenda of NDF. It work for freedom and human rights of common people in the country. See its website in the references.Sundaram7 06:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Try to be neutral and non-biased for this article

I have seen two parties making arguments and counter arguments on putting artcles on NDF. I am not going to argue too much on what is ndf and what is not. But it is not fair to put only what they are not or what they are accused for.

As there were a lot of discussion on Murders and killings before, I am not getting into the topic. CPM and RSS everyday fights in kannur and blood is spilled all over kerala due to political killings and revenges. Sometimes these parties tries to accuse other smaller organisations for these nonsense. They use media and power to accuse the parties like NDF to escape from the responsibilites.

When you read NDF's publications and watch its activities closely, you will understand one thing: it is against the social evils and it stand srongly like killing of innocents especially by buerocrats and fascists.

It is quite strnge to see in the articles on robbery and murders in NDF's name. This arguments need to be removed.

Living in kerala, I have seen ISS and NDF. They are different. NDF is not a violant organisation ISS and it is not a organisation to fight RSS. As they claims their aim is the empowerment of musim mass and other backward people. We can say they are communal, but they are not a terrorist and extremist organisaiton. Ganeshco 13:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes iss a terrorist org headed by Abdul Nazir Madani. What you define ISS/NDF as is irrelevant, as NDF activists were directly implicated in the massacre of Hindus.`Bakaman 21:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Editors, Baka , Soman, sundaram7, please dont play with this topic. When ISS is dispersed, Madani had started his PDP and his followers started working in it. NDF has links to PDP and ISS. Anand has put his openion in his paper and it is his own imagination. He didnt give any evidences for this linkage. Is there any leaders of ISS in NDF? no. I am seeing for the first time those kind of arguments. Also looting and robbery?? Keralites have never heard of these arguments against NDF!! Please don't put imaginary information into this topic. It should be 100% non-biased and neutral, pls. NDF is not against hindus! NDF is working for all nationalities of Indians. Ganeshco 04:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The NDF can lie all they want. The reports implicated them in the massacre of Hindus. If you look at al-Qaeda you will note that al-Qaeda is not used to source itself, neither should NDF.Bakaman 04:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello,BAKA, your are just putting the old version again back!! Please respect the other editors in the topic. They are also trying to contribute to WIKI. If this continues, I may have to notify the administrators. Pls don’t compare the international terrorist organization with NDF, which is a organization work for democratic empowerment of Indian citizen. Sundaram7 06:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Look it was started by madani. The only newsworthy news about NDF is their massacres of Hindus. You know Hindus are Indian citizens too.Bakaman 21:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Give some credible evidences , not your blind statements like the above. Dont put the edited articles back and put your ugly old version. As you can see in the media, NDF is not a illegal organisation. It is being working in Kerala for 16+ years. If it is a organisation agaist the people and democracy, govt might have banned it. But the reality is that we can see it gaining more popularity among keralite.

NDF is not connected to Madani. NDF doesn't refer to his thoughts in any of their activities. NDF, as the name reflects, stands for the total empowerment of nation. It is quite foolish to argue that by killing a group of people we can achive something in the nation. It is a fascist thought and NDF is 100% against the thoughts. Ganeshco 05:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Please dont put back the old versions again. Please dont remove the hard work of other editors. Sundaram7 09:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

ISS

Note that Vinod Kumar's article doesn't mention the causes behind the banning of ISS. --Soman 14:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Dispute On this Article

Editors of this article: please don't do unprofessional disputes flipping the pages with each other. Please follow wikipedia's policies to change the pages. If you have arguments and counter arguments, please discuss it first and then modify. Please dont put immotional statements and arguments in the text. Please feel positive and try to resolve this dispute.-- Sundaram7 06:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I have semiprotected the article. I have never heard of the group, but if WP is going to call it "militant Islamist", we'd need a good reference for that, especially since the epitet seems to be disputed. The reference quoted in support of "The organization is one of the organizations that took over the political vacuum when the Islamic Sevak Sangh (ISS) of Abdul Nasser Madani was banned in 1993" is mentioning NDF in a single sentence, saying "newly-formed groups like the National Democratic Front (NDF) have emerged as stronger alternatives to ISS and SIMI and have allegedly masterminded communal violence in recent years". That is, the source is not itself alleging anything, but it can be quoted as a reference that there are allegations to the effect that the group is involved in communal violence. Keep everything closely sourced and stop the edit-warring. dab (𒁳) 12:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think the article is quite balanced right now.Bakaman 17:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

glad to hear it, maybe you can ask Freedom skies to cut the revert-warring. They may well be a "militant Islamist" group, I wouldn't know, but before we're not going to state that as a fact if it is disputed. As it is, we don't even have a source that calls them "militant Islamist". One article calls them as "shadowy outfit", and I don't doubt they are. But usually, you can tell a group is "militant Islamist" because they tell you they are, waving rifles and shouting a lot. A group that does not self-identify as militant Islamist shouldn't be so called lightly, certainly not on WP. dab (𒁳) 11:25, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Other than the unsourced allegations of "militant Islamism", the article defines the general mainstream view on NDF, they shot into prominence after massacring a bunch of Hindus on a beach in 2002, and are known for using death squads for killing their opponents. The BJP alleged they have links to the ISI.Bakaman 16:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

as far as I can see, a connection between the NDF and this "massacre" is also a matter of "allegation". We can certainly say the BJP thinks they are involved, and they may be involved for all I know, but we won't be able to just take BJP's word for it, we'd need a court decision at the very least. dab (𒁳) 08:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Dab you are incorrect, NDF activists were directly implicated in the massacre. The BJP alleged NDF was connected to the ISI. See "it was the NDF and IUML, which planned and implemented the massacre in Marad", and a cursory look at the CBI sheet.Bakaman 04:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

quoth thehindu.com. the references you removed said otherwise. Bakaman, I know you are biased, but even you must recognize that you cannot use thehindu.com as a neutral or authoritative source. As I said, it may be true for all I know, but the point is that not all sources agree on it, and no court decision has been shown to exist so far. dab (𒁳) 10:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The Hindu is a mainstream newspaper. I have no need to quote "hindunet", "hindu unity", the RSS and other orgs closer to my POV when mainstream media has a dark view on the NDF.It seems you are unaware of what is mainstream in India."Hindu" in this case is in the context of Hindustan, not "Hindu dharma".Bakaman 23:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

OTOH, dalitvoice, human rights kerala, and etc, are fringe and partisan mouthpieces. I might as well quote LeT on this org if anti-Semitic papers are the only things praising the NDF.Bakaman 23:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Article must be rewritten

I am a new user of wiki. I am a person from kerala now based in bangalore. As per my knowladge and as per the public opinion NDF is an organization that is patriotic and that strives for the devolopment of our coutry. Whatever allegations put here are just the other side of the media and the fascist criminals just because a majority of people behind the organization are muslims. Please try to be neutral and please save wiki from the rise of islamophobia.

This article should be corrected.

I suggest that http://www.ndfindia.com/ which is their official site should be put in External links. And that is a must!!

Please go through the site and verify the facts, especially in the news section. The kind of activities the organization is involved shows their true nature. Those facts can be verified.

It is shame full that editors in wiki are also trapped by the fascists criminals. -- wrongNot Feb20 2007

Article was being modified in the right direction by User:Dbachmann and now the user Bakaman is creating trouble. Please discuss the issue which you are having and lets resolve it before updating.

The user will have to explain why he deleted few facts which were laid by along with references and added new informations which are just an accusation by the largest communal parties.

why did this user remove the below information added by User:Dbachmann

"A killing of 8 Hindus in Bepur known as the "Marad massacre". NDF has condemned the incident and rejects all allegations of involvement, . and welcomed the CBI inquiry which did not investigate NDF involvement. "

I can see that this user Bakaman have active roles in the articles on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and VHP, groups that is trying to eliminate mulims from india and make india a hindu nation. (See the banner on the site RSS.org). Vast majority of Hindus as well as the political parties are strongly against the activities of these groups. -- wrongNot Feb22 2007

Wrong not 06:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

look, Bakaman is partisan in this, and so are you. You have to both recognize this and sit down to carve out a neutral presentation of all views. And do go easy on the red font please. dab (𒁳) 10:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

allegations must not be put as facts

Those who wish to criticize the organization may do in the criticism section..

59.160.207.14 07:28, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

dont remove the facts which are laid with reference (discussion before any such act)

most of the neutral contributions by User:Dbachmann were removed by User:Bakasuprman without any discussion here. Since the changes made by User:Bakasuprman had new informations too, i didn't revert the whole thing back to User:Dbachmann version, instead added the removed content back once again in the appropriate places Pens withdrawn 12:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Bakasuprman, please try to undertand and accept that NDF is not an islamist group. --- Pens withdrawn 07:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I will once NDF brings the 8 Hindus massacred in Marad back from the dead. They are a ragtag group of pseudo-human right militants, who claim to be working for the upliftment of Muslims.Bakaman 23:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)::

was it proved that NDF did it.. why hate the organization cos majority are muslims... based on BJP/RSS/VHP leaders allegations, why do u need to believe that NDF did it????? did any court say that? NDF has welcomed CBI enquiry, did u know tat?

if u want to accuse them, just put it in criticism section. if people start fighting like this, it can be in both directions, muslims may start troubling the articles related to RSS, VHP etc, again it will be going worse.. Wrong not 04:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I have cleaned-up the allegation part as suggested by user:Pens withdrawn. The original version is found more meaningful. So I reverted some sentences.Sundaram7 07:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Allegations against NDF are not just made by BJP, Congress Party (vehemently anti-BJP and very popular among moderate Muslims) and CPI(M) have also labelled NDF as a terrorist front. Lionheart5 23:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Wrong not, your empty threats of bringing muslims starting to "trouble articles" merely proves you are here for some agenda. In that case view WP:POINT and WP:NOT. Unlike you I am not affiliated to any political party. Its no secret I am sympathetic to Hindu nationalism but I dont need RSS to claim things when the chargesheet directly implicated this group. NDF seems to be reviled all over as a communal organization, outside a few districts in Kerala effectively controlled by the ISI.Bakaman 23:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

the alteration done by User:Lionheart5 on 14:36, 26 February 2007 on this article by just mentioning in the comment as rv POv pushing, is not acceptable. How can anyone change the entire article like that in one stretch without any discussion. --Pens withdrawn 06:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Might help if you actually read up on some wikipedia policies.Calling members of the Communist Party of India (Marxist) "fascist" is just plain delusional, and addressing exposers of the terrorist mass-murderers of the NDF as "fascist" (directed, presumably at David Bukay) is a violation of WP:LIVING and can be removed by anybody at any time with prejudice. Lionheart5 06:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

we have already discussed in my talk page where I told you that I didn't want to revert the entire article and discard all of your changes. I was about to make the changes you have done in its original structure. As a first step I reverted it to previous version which was the continuation of the version created by the administrator User:Dbachmann. Until the edits of User:Sundaram7 on 10:03, 26 February 2007, The article was moving in the right direction. What ever alterations you have done on 14:36, 26 February 2007 on the article (by just mentioning in the comment as rv POv pushing) should be re examined and edited once again. -- Pens withdrawn 07:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Sundaram's edits were just part of the problem. There were removals of relevant text in criticisms.My suggestion is, why don't you place your edits in the talk page first and let everybody see them "before" you put them into the article? Another idea that you should do is to invite commentary from other uninvolved users through Wikipedia:Request for comments.Then we can see what many other people say. Lionheart5 07:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The editors other than me, user:Pens withdrawn and user:Dbachmann are trying to put back the old arguments to the article. user:Lionheart5 looked like a new user, but he is trying to brings the old arguments to the article which the administers have cleared. He is trying to bring the Vinod Kumars article , Ahamkaaris, Bukay, David book again. They are not good for Verifiability. This is being discussed a lot before and dont drag it again. Sundaram7 09:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that any sane editor would want to keep insipid nonsense about "fascist" persons in the CPM or WP:BLP violations against people (which is totally verboten here). Plus, all cited works satisfy WP:V. I hope that you are sane enough to have actually read the policy page. If not, then conversing with you is a waste of time.

Follow my suggestions above and file a request for comments instead of wasting people's time with terrorist propaganda. Lionheart5 09:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Marad riots

I beleive Mr.Backmen from one of Fanatic organisation in India User User:Lionheart5 added the following text under criticism section.

"The Central Bureau of Investigation report found that "activists of IUML and NDF, a Muslim outfit, were actively involved in the massacre"

He was trying to twist the fact. As per the reference he has put, it is stated that

Thomas P Joseph Commission report, tabled in the assembly , found that "activists of IUML and NDF, a Muslim outfit, were actively involved in the massacre" of nine persons, including eight Hindus, at Marad beach in Kozhikode on May 2, 2003. And they have asked for a CBI enquiry. (reference - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2032620.cms ) Both IUML and NDF has welcomed CBI enquiry.

Whereas "The Hindu" states that

The Commission, in its findings, described how a minor incident on the Marad beach during the New Year celebrations on December 31, 2001 had turned into a riot on January 4, 2002 "due to the intervention of the CPI(M), Indian Union Muslim League (IUML) and BJP/RSS activists. This was the first of the riots and it led to the death of five persons belonging to two communities. (reference - http://www.hindu.com/2006/09/28/stories/2006092804310700.htm)

User:Lionheart5 is a new user and he is here to create trouble... He has also removed all the major sections created by administrator User:Dbachmann ----Pens withdrawn 12:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Ironic, since the moniker is true more for you than anyone else here,a sockpuppeteer troll with an Islamist agenda of hate. Stop violating WP:LEAD and WP:NPOV and keep your propaganda in your morning morchas please. Wikipedia is not the place for NDF fancruft. We want to build a neutral encyclopedia. Lionheart5 13:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Every one knows who is spreading hate here. -- Pens withdrawn 13:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

NDF had condemned this cruel incident. Read what NDF had said on this incident("The Hindu" report - http://www.hinduonnet.com/2002/01/16/stories/2002011603360300.htm )

Please see the result of CBI enquiry published on "The Hindu"- http://www.hindu.com/2004/09/03/stories/2004090309320400.htm --- Pens withdrawn 13:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I do not see anything in "The Hindu" article that says that CBI exonerated NDF of terrorism. Of course, you are right that NDF "condemns" this incident publicly. Osama bin-Laden also "condemned" 9/11 at first. Nevertheless, I have kept it in the article that NDF denies involvement in marad massacre so that should satisfy you. Lionheart5 13:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The NDF betays itself on it's website as an Islamist group with their hysterical accusations of "Fascist Hindus are everywhere and them vaarmint are all out to git us" paranoia. Yes, it is indeed clear who's the one spreading hatred (NDF wallahs). Lionheart5

what the hell are you saying??? where is the CBI report which accusses NDF?????? and why did you put that again. What User:pens withdrawn said was true. It is clearly mentioned in the reference you have put, that Thomas P Joseph Commission report accused NDF.If you what to say that CBI have accused NDF, show the reference. CBI has enquired the case and has given the report on it. What ever changes Pens withdrawn has made is right and he made it clear in the above discussion. RSS is the real accuse as per the Hindu report, which can also be mentioned, they started the riot and few local muslims revolted naturally. Did any muslim mention that in this articlewhen we have clear reference from Hindu News. And what you guys do is twist the facts and blame NDF. You guys are spreading hatred and you are blamming muslims. Are Muslims creating trouble in the article of RSS??? I dont see that. Are you gone mad????? Whats is wrong with you? I have read your discussion with Penswithdrawn in his talk page User_talk:pens withdrawn. You are afraid of NDF right. Let them defend their rights yaar.. And if you are against Islam as a whole, we muslims dont have any problem. Allah is sufficient for us. You are also among those unfortunate ones who is under the trap of conspiracies against Islam.. Islam is for peace. But Islam also asks us to defend ourself. If the RSS/VHP destroys mulims in India and dream about a Hindu nations, Understand that we dont need any banner of any oranization to fight against those ___..

Bakaman is trying to add the same text again. If CBI has reported NDF involvement, please provide the reference -- Fear the Fire 10:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Please give the reference when you add that info again. --- Fear the Fire 03:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

If that fact is true, it must be there in the article. But you should have at least one reference which clearly says that NDF was involved in the incident. Unless you don't give any reference, it is just a POV. If the CBI has actually reported NDF's involvement, it wont be hard to find a reference. Whatever reference you are putting against that fact clearly states that it is Thomas P Joseph Commission report which found IUML and NDF involvement. It is not mentioned anywhere that CBI reported the same. (Please read these two references http://www.hindu.com/2006/09/28/stories/2006092804310700.htm / http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2032620.cms) -- Fear the Fire 04:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Congress campaigns against terrorism

---

As per User:Freedom skies "Congress launched a campaign against terrorism in Malappuram district in Kerala, labeling NDF as an organization that promotes Islamic terrorism" [5]

Congress "We cannot close our eyes on extremist elements and activities." (edit summery comment by User:Freedom skies)[6]

where is islamic terrorism in that reference?? Did anywhere in the reference is it mentioned Islamic terrorism??? its therefore POV. Or else give appropriate reference.

User:Freedom skies is trying to twist the fact. The sentence he framed in the article means like congress launched the campaign to check islamic terrorism by NDF. whereas the reference he gave clearly says "The Congress on Tuesday launched a campaign against terrorism in Malappuram district, simultaneously taking on parties and organisations such as the Indian Union Muslim League (IUML), the Communist Party of India (Marxist), the National Development Front (NDF), the People's Democratic Party (PDP) and the Jama'at-e-Islami and its subsidiary Solidarity Youth Movement". CPI M involved in Islamic terrorism?? --Fear the Fire 11:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

---

I have just rephrased the sentence in my first edit [7]. The part I have removed in my second edit is just the repetition of same sentence[8].. It mentions the congress campaign twice under criticism section. User:Freedom skies has reverted my edit and now again it is mentioned twice.. Please check before doing reverts. --Fear the Fire

removed the repetition again. Congress campaign is still mentioned, so please dont revert --Fear the Fire 12:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

So noted. Accurate edit summaries would have helped. _{Freedom skies| talk}  14:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

i had clearly mentioned it in the summery and moreover i had asked you to read this talk page as well. -- fear_the_fire

Criticism

There are few relavant points in this section, which we need to review and expand further. But the real fact is missing. For example in the article "between hope and fear" in hinduonline, there is no mentioning about the 2002 massacre. But there is a quoting in the article which ways In Marad, RSS activists who are guilty of the crimes committed during the 2002 incident are roaming around freely[9]. Now it is confusing. I have removed some POVs as cited by Baka, Soman and Pens Withdrawn. They are dicussed in the above sections. We need to continue the positive discussion to clean up this article.---- Sundaram7 14:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

That's a quote from the head of the terrorist group himself accusing the RSS of terrorism. Don't take things out of context.Bakaman 18:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not fair to call an Human Activist as terrorist. There should be references and judgement to support your POV. For some editors, others who are against their thoughts, they just call them as terrorist and try to make the white black!! Sundaram7 07:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Please dont bring it back again: The statement from Pinarai Vijayan is not a source for putting information in wikipedia. It is just an accusation but not proved. If you start putting the accusation, wikipedia is not the place for it. The book "Will I Be Killed?" doesnt talk about the NDF. It is talking about terrorism and its linkage. But NDF stands for human rights, to protect people from terrorism from goverment and communal groups. For some editors, they are trying to divert the attention putting unecessary arguments like Terrorism. Let us talk positively and contribute to wiki in positive way, not in a destructive way. --- Sundaram7 07:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Article protected

This article has been a subject of revert warring since a long time. Please discuss here instead of blindly reverting. I am also concerned that people are engaging in sockpuppetry in order to evade 3RR. I am investigating the matter. - Aksi_great (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Do see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Pens withdrawn.Bakaman 17:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Very Good Initiative: This is a very good initiative from Aksi_great to protect the article from POV, Vandals and 3RR from unknown people. You might see different cases related to 3RRs and vandals here: [10][11] and [12]. You could see most of the 3RRs and vandals in the articles were from sockpuppets and unknown users from IPs. See the edits [13], [14], [15],[16] and also numerous continous edits on the article here [17]. User is found in the same ip range of the sock puppet of [18] and [19].Thanks to the admin team for taking appropriate action on the sockpuppets and vandals. --- Sundaram7 05:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Attempt to damage the article

There is a deliberate attempt recently to damage the article and to mix drop of wrong informaiton here and there in the article. Please note that this article has gone through different review by the administrators and differnt peole with differnt POVs. I have put back the nutral version of the article which was reviewed by our admininistrators like User:Dbachmann and User:Aksi_great -- Sundaram7 15:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

baka, please dont add your vandals and POVs in this page. I am wondering why you want to participate in the switching the article business. -- Sundaram7 09:54, 26 August 2007 (UTC).

The pove pushers has put a lot of drops of wrong information here and there. Some of them are:

1. Why you call it as militant Islamist organisation

2. What is your evidence for NDF allegedly encourages Pakistan-backed ISI related activities in Kerala.

3. How you can say It also stands accused of being a propaganda front for numerous Islamic terrorist groups, and for orchestrating the 2002 Marad massacre (see Criticism below)  ?? In 2002, Among the arrseted were workers of Hindutva workers of ARAYASAMAJAM, RSS. Are they Islamist parties? So there is no logic or reference to prove your point.

4. You changed in sevaral places from the fact as 'claimings' of NDF. Why you don't want to agree on the facts?

5. You are calling Mukuntan C Menon as radical Islamist !!. Why you want to call him this way...? he is not even a muslim!!

6. Why you want to link it to ISI and pakistan? Did any goverment agency prove this? It is just some propaganda of fascist and unpopular parties in india. All parties has their opposition. This party is not an exception. -- Sundaram7 12:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Mainstream sources. Menon is not being called an islamist, and NDF is not looked on as some sort of red cross in India. Giving a whole bunch of unsourced advertising space to this organization violated WP:UNDUE and there is really no propaganda involved, apart from yourself, fear the fire, and the other Saudi.Bakaman 02:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Please dont divert from the subject. I am talking about the article and its WP:Verifiability. Please give enough references to prove your POVs. Give me atleast references and reliable sources for the above arguments and then you change the article. Please dont post with Wikipedia:No original research. I am trying to solve the balancing and you are ruining this attempt. --- Sundaram7 04:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Cut the bullshit. A large part of the criticism section magically disappeared during your edit. The references are deleted by you, and then you ask for the references you deleted.Bakaman 04:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Show me them in your version. -- Sundaram7 11:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The editors who push vandals has not brought any evidences or references to prove the WP:Verifiability or thier version (atleast for the 6 points listed above) to prove the differnt POVs that they have put in their version :[20]. This proves that the user are pusing their WP:POV and WP:Vandalism.-- Sundaram7 10:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

To Sundaram7 Request you to do some study on the subject before you involve in contribution of the article "Great HR actvist Mukundan C Menon",CHRO association with Human Rights Watch [HRW] can you substantiate this with an independent source.CHRO is alleged to be a partisan group as well as Mukundan C Menon was the editor in chief for Thejas daily which is the mouthpiece of NDF. Its apparent that you dont have any idea regarding the demographic-political dynamics of Malabar. Wikipedia is not a place to put Partisan sources as Original Reference, if you had any brief study it was'nt difficult to make out to certain extend atleast that NDF,CHRO,Mukundan C Menon can be associated to that category . For your mention that "Mukundan C Menon is not even a Muslim", take the case of Mukthar Abbas Naqwi , Dr Najma Heptullah, Shanawas Hussain associated with Sangh Pariwar,none are Hindus , can any one claim they are non-partisan.I can prove with the help of n Main stream media report the association of Mukundan C Menon,CHRO with NDF 59.145.142.36 15:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC) Lib Democrat

Wikipedia is not a place to fill Partisan views of Jamaat-e-Islami affiliated Madhyamam daily & Thejas (NDF) or Milli Gazette , or the contrarian reports from Sangh Pariwar dailies. In English version of wikipedia how can a Malayalam news report be shown ???. Any way acknowledge the mistake in wrongly understanding the identity of Sundaram7 earler

You have already removed the Malayalam references :-). -- Sundaram7 05:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

A balanced spacing of facts in this article should be every body's agenda, and that this undoubtfuly the true spirit of Wikipedia ,but in an attempt towards this ,the article has more or less become a replica of NDF portal. When the entries based on reports from Mainstream media many of which narration of reports prepared by Police and Intelligence agencies are countered by NDF's or Jamaat-e-Islami's version ,the article itself will turn to a P.O.V.

Think about CIA's , British agencies and the indepentend media's view (7/7 or 9/11) got countered by O.B.L 's and Taliban's view —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.145.142.36 (talk) 09:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Be Civil and Calm: What are we talking about. I didnt see a meaning in talking to representitive of user:Herbert von Karajan / LogicaCMG.com /59.145.142.36 and other POV pushers if the discussion is going this way. Are we talking about a organisation called NDF or something else? All the references that you have given in this regard is not relavant. You are diverting the subject to 'Taliban' and CIA report!!. You are not civil in your edits and writings. user:Herbert von Karajan is not even ready to talk about the subject!. Besides the above 6 points, I have the following 4 more points that shows that you are POV pushers.

7 It is a new finding from your group that NDF is started by Abdulnassar Madani!! .It looks like LogicaCMG.com / 59.145.142.36, is pedged to defeat this article!.

8 Where in the internview [21] the guy find that the organisation is a right wing?

9 What is your reference to prove that NDF is a militant group?

10 What you mean by Fourced Implementaion Of Sharia ?? There is nothing of that information explained in the reference:[22]. This is a real POV!

Why you cant change the heading from additional view to additional Point Of Views? Both are same, right? -- Sundaram7 10:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

You can differentiate between the views of 59.145.142.36 and Herbert von Karajan I have now where pushed a P.O.V only sourced items , there needs a lot of reasoning while providing this article ,the question is who is a P.O.V pusher the only question I need to ask you regarding your contribution is , making a replica of NDF's portal means what ? is it justified —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.145.142.36 (talk) 10:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

One of the above 10 points are enough to prove that you are pushing POV. Please give me reference and credible evidences to prove that you are not POV pusher. Give reasoning to put the arguments in the article. Othewise it is proven that you are damaging the article. Otherwise you are proving yourself that you are an ANTI-Wikepedian and un-Civil ! -- Sundaram7 11:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

POVs for this aricle, the bone of contention

1. Why you call it as militant Islamist organization ? What is your reference fot it?

Answer>>I used the description "Right wing Islamic organization " only check the wiki edits. Extensive mainstream media reports are there to prove. Your version is nothing but a replica of NDF portal, can you provide a non-partisan mentioning it as not an Islamic organization

Again, Where in the article it says NDF is a 'RIGHT WING'?? Secondly, a email discussion group cannot be accepted as a resource for wikipedia. It is another false argument that I am copying 'NDF portal'!!. Show me otherwise. Please respect the WP:NPOV. Thirdly the definition of Right_Wing is associated with a political party and is not applicable here.

2. What is your evidence for NDF allegedly encourages Pakistan-backed ISI related activities in Kerala.?

Answer>>it was reported by a governmental agency "The kerala State Police" the source http://www.hindu.com/2005/05/14/stories/2005051402780700.htm . A report presented by an IPS ranked Officer under his/ her capacity as the Commissionar of Police Kozhikode district . The only placed used this was under alleged foreign connection and no where else. Which is the acceptable resource for wikipedia ? governmental agency source or the ones sited from the mouth piece of NDF or Jama et Islami or other Partisan Orgainizations siting that state establishment is colluding with its opponents . we can wait for a nuetral source to come out with an answer on which is an [[WP:NPOV]

This was already proven that it was a play between the HIV leader Kummanam and Neera Ravath. How a confidential paper did was given to Kummanam and the same report was later shown to government. This way it is proven that it is a fascist propoganda. It is a utter failure of our Police that they are also influenced by the fascist move. "Notably, Ms. Rawat’s evidence was necessitated when the Hindu Aikya Vedi general secretary Kummanam Rajasekharan deposed before the Marad Commission on April 4 by submitting the same police report against NDF. Ms. Rawat had no convincing answer as to how the Hindu militant leader got the report in advance, which she herself termed as “confidential”." see http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2005/01-15June05-Print-Edition/011506200502.htm. This controversial material cannot be published in WP:Wikipedia. We have enough material already to publish but not doubtful and half truth.

3. How you can say It also stands accused of being a propaganda front for numerous Islamic terrorist groups, and for orchestrating the 2002 Marad massacre (see Criticism below)  ?? In 2002, among the arrested were workers of Hindutva workers of ARAYASAMAJAM, RSS. Are they Islamist parties? So there is no logic or reference to prove your point.

Answer>>I added it is a propaganda front under 2003 Marad massacre not 2002, this too was substantiated citing reports in mainstream media originated from Police and Intelligence agencies,among the arrested were only workers of Hindutva workers of ARAYASAMAJAM, RSS . A item under criticism refered as Modus Operandi published in frontline courting a governement source also worth noting. Here also [[WP:NPOV] needs to be judged by a third party as one of the particies does'nt see governement source as nuetral.

I think you have only little knowledge on the subject According to the Justice Thomas P. Joseph Commission report, of the 393 persons against whom charge-sheets were filed in 115 cases relating to the January 2002 incident, 213 were activists of the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS)/Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), 86 were of the Muslim League and 78 of the Communist Party of India (Marxist). see http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2320/stories/20061020003810600.htm

4. You changed in sevaral places from the fact as 'claiming' of NDF. Why you don't want to agree on the facts?

Answer>>I havenotdone that. which are Facts and claims depends on the perspective of contributers also. The NPOV here are different for the 2 sides , for one side 'Fact' is mainstream media reports based on Governamental agencies and for the other 'Facts' exactly the claim made the NDF and allied organizations through their mouthpiece. How there will be a mutual consensus on this in such a scenario?

5. You are calling Mukuntan C Menon as radical Islamist !!. Why you want to call him this way...? he is not even a Muslim!!

Answer>>This got removed already. Article is seen opiniating him as a "Great human rights Activist". Him being a non-muslim does,nt bar him from associating with muslim group. Is Dr Najma Heptullah, Muqthar Abbas Naqwi associated with Sangh Pariwar Hindus? Mukuntan C Menon's is associated with Thejas daily the mouthpiece of NDF , he is referred in article as a Journalist only.fundamentalist groups often quotes articles from Ultra Left wing due to their congruence in stand on various issues such US imperialism,Israel,Hindutva forces, with a transactional association with a person will there be diference in stand of an organization again wait for a nuetral source to come out on which is an [[WP:NPOV]

This way you agrees that it is not a fundamentalist and right wing. Mukunthan C Menon was a leftist thinker..

6. Why you want to link it to ISI and Pakistan? Did any government agency prove this? It is just some propaganda of fascist and unpopular parties in india. All parties have their opposition. This party is not an exception.

Answer>>Yes it was reported by a government agency "The kerala State Police" the source http://www.hindu.com/2005/05/14/stories/2005051402780700.htm .I do entered article linking with ISI and Pakistan with O.Rs given to question 2

see my comment on question 2

7 It is a new finding from your group that NDF is started by Abdulnassar Madani!! .It looks like LogicaCMG.com / 59.145.142.36, is pledged to defeat this article!.

Answer>>This was removed already You were making the article a propaganda centre for NDF likes it portal.All the claims made by the organization are refered as 'Facts' Does mentioning of activities of this organization siting WP:OR tantamount to defeating this article.Here the question is which is an WP:NPOV

come to the point, I stated 'NDF is started by Abdulnassar Madani' is a POV.

8 Where in the internview [1] the guy find that the organisation is a right wing?

Answer>> Read the 2 articles properly . does it sound for you it is like any other organization as you have stated .This because the WP:NPOV for you are articles from either NDF or its allied Organization

I have read the article and I cannot find it. Show me this as an answer from the interviewed person. As this is an interview, the POV of the interviewer is not acceptable.

9 What is your reference to prove that NDF is a militant group?

Answer>> "Right wing Islamic organisation " is used there .WP:OR as per this 'point of view ' are provided . The contrarian view differs from this , so no consensus

It is you who brought the argument and you should prove it. Dont be silly on it.

10 What you mean by Forced Implementation Of Sharia ?? There is nothing of that information explained in the reference:[2]. This is a real POV!

Answer>> "Implementation of religious code " was used ..WP:OR as per this 'point of view ' are provided regarding this After going through the if you didn’t find the entries regarding Implementation of religious code . I'am surprised.

I didnt see it says about "relegious code"!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Liberal Democrat (talk • contribs) 11:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

See my comments to your answers. -- Sundaram7 12:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Fighting Vandalism

The VandaL sundaram7 is removing sourced articles article under the pretext that any thing stated outside the manifesto of NDF are not NPOVs . He is seen loosely quoting wiki rules whenever necessary, under many occasions WP:Verifiability is not followed in quoting O.Rs, the WP:Verifiability section "Sources in languages other than English" was never followed from the beggining. Overall idea seems to make the article a propaganda pag of this organization

Removed the following vandals:

* To defend the human rights atrocities from Police, Military, Government and non governmental agencies.

Reason: The reference given is not relavant.

The Thomas P Joseph Commission report found that "activists of NDF, a Muslim outfit, were actively involved in the massacre"

Reason: The source is not reliable and it is a source of Communist/Marxist Propoganda.

In addition, the State secretary of the Communist Party of India (Marxist) in Kerala, Pinarayi Vijayan, has said that NDF was involved in the Marad massacre and referred to them as a "terrorist outfit" that executed a "planned mass murder".

This is not a place to put the POV from different political leaders.

::What about the stated manifesto's of NDF which are opininiated as facts , can you prove through a non - partisan source that they are NPOV

Ms Neera Rawat IPS, Senior Superintendent of Police, Bareilly, Uttar Pradesh, deposed before the Marad Judicial Inquiry Commission, Justice Thomas P. Joseph (reference Marad_massacre) that the Kozhikode Special Branch during her tenure as Kozhikode City Police Commissioner from March 22, 1997 to May 16 1999. She also added before the Inquiry Commission that the police had prepared confidential and authentic reports that ISI and Iran were the fund sponsors of the NDF..

Reason: The reason is already given in the previous discussion. It was clear from the media that it was a play b/w Kummanam Rajasekharan and Neera Ravath. http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2005/01-15June05-Print-Edition/011506200502.htm. So the credibility of this evidence is questioned and it is not included in the Joseph. P Commission.

The User dont have any authority to arbitrate that, milligazette a partisan source has presidence over governamental report. This is a dispute that need to be judged by third party that which is an NPOV. The whole idea seems out of line with wiki concept of WP:RS .Do find the Recommendation of Marad commission . Another article added whis is reference to a report from Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA),which is headed by Hon. Minister of External Affairs Mr.Pranab Mukherjee

Did I put milligazette as a reference source in the document? I dont want to start a discussion of milligazette is partisan or not. I want to point out that the statement from Neera Rawat is doubtful and is not accepted by public. Even Thomas P Joseph commission didnt have any reference to such a connection to this organistion.

Who is this 'Public'? State how a Governmental Report does'nt pass [WP:Verifiability] guideline.State the line in the report where this aspect is negated. Infact commission sole main reccomendation was for a wider investigation into this with a central agency

The NDF has been heavily criticized for recruiting the largely moderate and progressive Kerala Muslims into extremist ideologies. The organization, while superficially a "Human Rights Group", has attracted numerous Islamic Fundamentalists to their ranks, and, as such, stand compared to several more well-known militant Islamist groups such as Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hizbul Mujahideen and others.

Reason: You are arguing that apple is same as orenges. The author's references are already being questioned many times in different articles.

::Come to point with respect to wikipedia rules for entry, that how it is getting negated here . only wiki rules are the set of standards to be followed in editing the article

Wikipedia is about WP:balancing. The book dont have any such reference also. It is a fascist propoganda and was written by a fascist.

"written by a fascist", Wikipidea is about its guidelines , how can you arbitrate that

while following WP:balancing, the whole article has become a source as mentioned in WP:OR

Haifa University political scientist David Bukay lists the NDF as a "fundamentalist and subversive group"

Reason: You are arguing that apple is same as orenges. The author's references are already being questioned many times in different articles.

::Come to wikipedia rules , that how it is getting negated here . only wiki rules are the set of standards to be followed in editing the article

Wikipedia is about WP:balancing. The book dont have any such reference also. It is a fascist propoganda and was written by a fascist.

'"written by a fascist", Wikipidea is about its guidelines , how can you arbitrate that

while following WP:balancing, the whole article has become a source as mentioned in WP:OR.If David Bukay (haifa uni)is fascist , that is the opinion shared by them about NDF and its supporters, so leave it to third party dispute as per WP:DR

implementation of relegious code

The NDF is alleged to involved in pushing the Islamic Sharia code in cosmopolitan Muslim society , which itin India, an act viewed by moderate Muslims and secularists as "Talibanization".A typical case reported by media is killing Fakir Uppappa or Siddhan, killed in November for indulging in "un-Islamic spiritualism".

Reason:The source don't match with the argument here. See the previsou discussion on this matter.

::This got reported from IndianExpress daily state here how the wiki rules are negated here

There is no such quotes as relegious code in this article.

Technical arguement !!! . then what does it speak about .

A muslim was murdered in Punalur for his binding with Leftist oganization [DYFI].The media reports involving the killing of CPI(M)’s Ashraf in Punalur in Kollam district points towards this.

Reason:This is just a POV from .

::This got reported from IndianExpress daily please state here how this happened to be a POV

Pinarai's statements have marxist and communist propoganda behind it. It is quite natural to have polical such statements from diffent parties and they are not suitable to publish in wiki.

What is suitable to publish in WIKI? only NDF manifesto!!! .You are just another partisan source , suggest to leave this to WP:DR

Allegation of targeting the liberals in the community: those who do not strictly follow Islamic laws like abstaining from liquor, fasting during Ramadan and wearing the makhna or the purdah.

Reason:This is already been discussed before. It is just a discussion forum with different POV of people, and cannot be accepted as reliable source.

:: Is milligazette accepted as reliable source

Are you saying, if somebody can add non-sense, you will add some nonsense??. So please remove it from the article.

Islamism

Reason:There is no reference either from NDF or from reliable sources that it promote Islamism

Article quoted from WashingtonPost is quoted there, defenitely is is as per WP:Verifiability , explain how this is a POV. What is reliable source for you please explain.

"Mediapersons have been misled by Intelligence authorities to believe that the NDF was a militant organisation. They had said the same thing about Congress during the freedom struggle."

::The user is requested to substantitiate ,how the above quoted entry stated in the article happens to be WP:NPOV with repect to the WP:Verifiability policy

The author is doubtful and is being under scrutiny of many intelligence agencies for his spy work. He is being arrested by diffenent counties like Zimbabway for his spy work. So it is doubtful also.

Wiki is not an area for 'Original Research' , Come with a 'reliable sources' as you had asked earlier the other party for this

And over all what is your concept regarding WP:NPOV

Hello, Liberal Democrat and Herbert Von Karajan, See my comments above. Please respect Balancing and WP:NPOV before adding such vandals in the article. -- Sundaram7 14:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You are also asked to do the same ,Umpteen time I'm suggesting to go by guidelines . If you had dispute take it as per Wiki guidline WP:DR

"activists of IUML and NDF, a Muslim outfit, were actively involved in the massacre" It is stated in the article so referring to Thomas P. Joseph commission report. Afer reading the complete report it is found that there is no such reference in Joseph P Commission Report. The complete report is here in PDF format: [23]. This really helped me to point out that the writer is trying to push his POV into the article.

Kottakkal Police station attack: Only Sangh Parivar and Marxist party say so. All the mainstream media in Kerala has evaluated this as attack from police and the photos of damaged cars and vehicles of the N D F activists were shown in next day's news papers. Refer to same day's news papers.

Pakistan MP's visit row:

Only Sangh Parivar found something wrong in this visit. Infact it was a accusation only. Even if it is a fact, what is wrong in it? Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal is a political party and they are not part of ISI or banned Pakistani extremist movements. If one of Indian minister visit pakistan and their people, do a pakistani say that it is against Pakistani Nationalism. It is in fact will be evaluated to enrich the relations between two neighboring countries.

Additional Views: This portion is a pure vandal. The reference is from a sangh parivar ideologist.

Islamic Sevak Sangh and SIMI links:

This is also an accusation. The great evidence is that these organizations have their own existence. No SIMI workers are there in NDF. But there are NDF workers who were previously working for different movements like SIMI, PDP, IUML, DYFI; and later on they found that they should work for Indian minority movement like NDF and leave their terrorist and rightwing lines.

You can see similar situations in other organizations also. For example, K T jaleel and Abdussamad Samadani were previously working for SIMI and they later disagreed with the extremist thoughts and jointed in mainstream movements of IUML.

Pakistan-backed ISI related activities in Kerala:

There are many organizations, political parties in Kerala. But only sangh parivar declares that N D F has ISI links[24]. They are trying to push these views using mainstream media. example is [25]. But they are not able to bring single evidence towards it. Once they reported an incident in Baypore that an ISI ship in Baypore and police has caught the accused. But when they suspects were in quested, it found that they were from Indian Army!!.

most of the points mentioned bellow appears as Original Research done by Sundaram7 quite interesting to see your enthusiasm !!

• On the incident of Marad, it is declared by I D Swami, who was the cabinet minister that ISI is behind the killing. He was from BJP and was activist of RSS.

• During Marad inquests, Neera Rawas declared that she has enough evidence that NDF has links with ISI, which were not put on the desk. But it is later found that the report that she was referring to was the report that Kummanam Rajasekharan submitted to her when she was I G in Calicut. This was pointed out to her and she said "Confidential Matters". There might be a confidential agreement b/w her and HIV leader. From this it is clear that she is learned towards the Sangh Parivar.

• NDF is running a case against Neera Rawat's declarations. For them Neera Rawat's statement is against Indian Nationalism. She didn't report such an activity from ISI to the government on time. ISI is a secret agency which is trying to ruin the Integrity of Indian nation. She either telling a lie or she is working against the Nationalism of India.

• Amar Bakhshi & P Koya: Amar, who is the author of washington post, is arrested different times for his CIA links. He works for American and Zionist interests. Sangh parivar is behind P. Koya for long time. They have tried to trap him for a meaningless argument on one of his books and claiming that it is against Indian interests. But later the court has rejected this arguments [26].

--- Sundaram7 12:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Sundaram7 & is warned to refrain from personal attacks least it will invite Intervention

Patronisation

The User Sundaram 7 is requested to come with mainstream and governmental sources to prove his point like the other editors. Wiki is about verifiability, on what Jurisdiction/powers you can comment on various agencies? ,this is not a blog or space alloted for NDF. It seems you are annoyed about criticism from the very beggining as seen in this page. Come with solid proofs not with your own hypothesis as seen stated through out these page.You can claim the whole media & ruling establishments are biased but that cant reflect in Wiki as there are principles laid out for entries here .--212.8.174.135 13:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The biggest proof is the The Joseph.P Tomas commission report[27]. The editor has put a big lie about it in the article. -- Sundaram7 12:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Attacks from HVK pusher

user:Thegoldenageoftheflyingspaghettimonster is trying to help user:liberal Democrat removing my edits even in discussions. see[28]. This proves that they are related and work for the banned user user:Hkelkar.

Why you guys fear to discuss the facts. This document is totally learned towards Sangh Parivar views. Not balanced at all. !! -- Sundaram7 11:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Sundaram,Everyone has the same access to Wikipedia as you have ,it is totaly Uncivil to try to manufacture opinion against another as you are doing.Edits show you were repeating the same for quite sometime. So it is high time you got warned of a block from this article.--59.93.32.65 08:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Trying to Push Jihadi Propaganda

As reports denote Internet has become the largest playgound for Jihadi activists,in this article also the same overtone are seen under the guise of Sundaram7/198.36.32.21 [29]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sahyadhri (talk • contribs) 07:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Sangh Parivar Views : "Sanghified" article

"activists of IUML and NDF, a Muslim outfit, were actively involved in the massacre" It is stated in the article so referring to Thomas P. Joseph commission report. Afer reading the complete report it is found that there is no such reference in Joseph P Commission Report. The complete report is here in PDF format: [30]. This really helped me to point out that the writer is trying to push his POV into the article.

Kottakkal Police station attack: Only Sangh Parivar and Marxist party say so. All the mainstream media in Kerala has evaluated this as attack from police and the photos of damaged cars and vehicles of the N D F activists were shown in next day's news papers. Refer to same day's news papers.

Pakistan MP's visit row:

Only Sangh Parivar found something wrong in this visit. Infact it was a accusation only. Even if it is a fact, what is wrong in it? Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal is a political party and they are not part of ISI or banned Pakistani extremist movements. If one of Indian minister visit pakistan and their people, do a pakistani say that it is against Pakistani Nationalism. It is in fact will be evaluated to enrich the relations between two neighboring countries.

Additional Views: This portion is a pure vandal. The reference is from a sangh parivar ideologist.

Islamic Sevak Sangh and SIMI links:

This is also an accusation. The great evidence is that these organizations have their own existence. No SIMI workers are there in NDF. But there are NDF workers who were previously working for different movements like SIMI, PDP, IUML, DYFI; and later on they found that they should work for Indian minority movement like NDF and leave their terrorist and rightwing lines.

You can see similar situations in other organizations also. For example, K T jaleel and Abdussamad Samadani were previously working for SIMI and they later disagreed with the extremist thoughts and jointed in mainstream movements of IUML.

Pakistan-backed ISI related activities in Kerala:

There are many organizations, political parties in Kerala. But only sangh parivar declares that N D F has ISI links[31]. They are trying to push these views using mainstream media. example is [32]. But they are not able to bring single evidence towards it. Once they reported an incident in Baypore that an ISI ship in Baypore and police has caught the accused. But when they suspects were in quested, it found that they were from Indian Army!!.

• On the incident of Marad, it is declared by I D Swami, who was the cabinet minister that ISI is behind the killing. He was from BJP and was activist of RSS.

• During Marad inquests, Neera Rawas declared that she has enough evidence that NDF has links with ISI, which were not put on the desk. But it is later found that the report that she was referring to was the report that Kummanam Rajasekharan submitted to her when she was I G in Calicut. This was pointed out to her and she said "Confidential Matters". There might be a confidential agreement b/w her and HIV leader. From this it is clear that she is learned towards the Sangh Parivar.

• NDF is running a case against Neera Rawat's declarations. For them Neera Rawat's statement is against Indian Nationalism. She didn't report such an activity from ISI to the government on time. ISI is a secret agency which is trying to ruin the Integrity of Indian nation. She either telling a lie or she is working against the Nationalism of India.

• Amar Bakhshi & P Koya: Amar, who is the author of washington post, is arrested different times for his CIA links. He works for American and Zionist interests. Sangh parivar is behind P. Koya for long time. They have tried to trap him for a meaningless argument on one of his books and claiming that it is against Indian interests. But later the court has rejected this arguments [33]. --- Sundaram7 12:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Islamic and Islamist:

In the document in references, NDF is refered as "Islamic organization" and the editor has changed it as "Islamist Militant". This is a POV. --- Sundaram7 13:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... come on, please dont remove my edits from discussion page. Why you even hate to discuss. My whole point is that only Sangh Parivar has the views that I have highlighted. Please prove otherwise. -- Sundaram7 12:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Newsweek

“ I was very happy, excited, on September 11th. Someone called me to switch on BBC and I saw the aircraft crashing into the World Trade Center and I saw it crumbling down -- down like the United States and I was laughing… Osama Bin Laden gave Americans back what they had done to the world. It was a wonderful thing! What else can a helpless people do? There should be more of it [terrorism] in U.S. Why not? ”

[34]

Newsweek is an WP:RS and this quote is indicative of the NDF stand.Bakaman 20:51, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Hkelkar and his Supporters are back on this article!

Be aware that the vandal specialist Hkelkar and his sockpuppets[35] along with user:Eagerbeaver434 are back with their supporters to attack on this article. Please help to remove this vandalisation. His supporters are just make Edits without even discussing in the discussion page!. ---- Sundaram7 11:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the right place to space conspiracy theories

What ever written about the article had been discussed umpteen times as visible in discussion page. Wikipedia is not the right place to space conspiracy theories. All the entries made had been backed by mainstream media references as per Wiki:RS policy, while the Saudi Arabian contrarian editor is reiterating theories on regular intervals questing to prove the credibility of mainstream medias such as Washington Post.--Sahyadhri (talk) 11:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive edits by User:Headmast ship

The user User:Headmast ship had reverted quite a lot of changes without any explanation. After my first revert, he again repeated a complete revert to bring a minor change. I am reverting this back because no explanation for revert had been given to counter my arguments - especially removal of POV weasel words and OR sentences.

I am retaining the word "militant" in the intro as a citation from Frontline had been given. Other changes are not justified

Seeing the lack of existence of any other contributions by User:Headmast ship, I suspect he is a sockpuppet. If this behaviour is repeated, I will consider raising the issue again to a moderator with the identities of sockpuppets —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zencv (talk • contribs) 14:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that User:Headmast ship is a sockpuppet of User:B Nambiar - both reverts many revisions without providing any explanation , makes no other positive contribution to the article other than introducing biased weasel words and POV Zencv (talk) 07:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive edits by User:B Nambiar

Quite a lot of clean up done by me to remove weasel words had been removed by User: B Nambiar and his suspected sockpuppet. You(and I) may disagree with NDF, but please stop vandalising - Wiki is for objective facts, not for bringing your POV. eg: The sentences like "NDF had been heavily criticized.." and "though NDF publicly denies..." etc. are inappropriate use of weasel words to bring biased POV and are nor referenced(if I am wrong, please provide where exactly).

The above users continuously vandalises and does nothing to improve the overall quality of the articles..Appropriate sockpuppet alerts are being raised to Wiki moderators. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zencv (talk • contribs) 10:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh please, anyway the bone of contention I have is the removal of the sourced material in the additional views section, done with no reason and cleverly hidden under many accusations of POV and sock puppetry. KBN (talk) 11:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

yes, I agree with you it is highly POV pushing, I reverted his vandalism. --Tomb of the Unknown Warrior tomb 11:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Allegation of militancy

I removed the word "militant" from the intro and included it under criticism. This word was squeezed in based on a citation from Frontline. But this alone doesn't warrant this word to be taken as an absolute truth. We live in an age where you can call any organization any name including terrorist or militant - but not all of them deserve equal weightage. RSS had been accused as a fascist organization which involved in militant activities including the murder of Gandhi and Babri riots, but those who want to call NDF a militant outfit doesn't want these terms in the intro of RSS, isn't it? I retained the word Islamist because organization itself identifies as an Islamist organization.

I have included the word "militant" as it appeared on the reference provided under criticism section Zencv (talk) 16:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The NDF's notability is tied to the fact that it was involved in the Marad massacre. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a viable argument for the removal of an obviously appropriate tag from the article.Bakaman 01:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It is just your POV that Marad warrants NDF to be called a militant org. When giving such a controversial and hyper sensitive adjective to an organisation, you have to bring more arguments. RSS had been involved in zillion times more violent incidence, but I dont know whether you would approve if I write "RSS is a militant fascist org..." as the first sentence in the intro.

My argument is that NDF itself never accepted the allegations that it pursues militancy(like LTTE). It had been clearly involved in violent incidence like BJP, RSS and CPIM. So allegations and accusations are noted, but not good enough for name calling.

As a compromise, I have included it in the intro. itself in the next paragraph. Zencv (talk) 18:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

What arguments do I need to bring? My job is not to prove anything to you, or to the Saudis editing this page (a look at the page history should tell you who they are) who probably fund this organization. I merely document the fact that the NDF is characterized by violence, unlike the BJP/RSS/CPIM who are notable for actually engaging in politics at the ballotbox in a civilized banner. The sources attest to whatever I have put on the page, so whether I am anti-NDF or pro-terrorism is irrelevant.Bakaman 23:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and as I stated before, since you were too busy attacking me to read it, the fact is that the NDF's notability is a result of the Marad massacre. No massacre, no notability.Bakaman 23:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whether you understood my argument or bothered to analyse it without getting emotional. NDF had been clearly involved in militant activities and those are noted in the article. Most recently they have been accused of attacking some commuters on the way to Kochin airport, to prevent them from travelling. But to justify a clear label(ie, militant) like you would have given to al-Qaeda or similar sorts, there has to be some sort of official classification by governmental agency or something like that, and this was my point. Otherwise, this would end up as just a POV. IMO, to improve the overall quality of this article, one has to improve the "History" part as well as how NDF operates(Activities). The Activities part would step by step document their activities, including militant ones as well as some other practices like "fanning fanatisicm".

As a sidenote, I cannot share your opinion on the civility of RSS - the difference between RSS and NDF is that the former had been operating since decades and with or without militancy is going to remain in the mainstream. I occasionally read mouthpiece of RSS and the only difference that I find about it in comparison with Thejas is that one has saffron flavour whereas other has green Suigeneris (talk) 10:25, 22 April 2008 (UTC)