Talk:Homeschooling

Financial Obligations

A new section called "financial obligations" has just been added. Since there is already a section called "cost to families" which actually has references, and since the "financial obligations" sections sounds suspiciously like original research, I think we ought to remove it. Does anybody object to that? Amillion (talk) 08:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your points and have rewritten this part of the article. I have taken out the first paragraph that gave examples for how homeschooling parents that stay at home may generate extra income. None of the studies I read indicate this to be the case, it's simply not being commented on. I did add a line stating it as possibility, unless other sources become available that's all it deserves. Instead I have put the point of the criticism in the first paragraph, being that the majority of homeschooling families leaves one parent at home. This is backed up with different statistical sources in the second paragraph. There is a paragraph going into the costs for educational materials compared with public schooling as well, but with less detail as this is not the primary financial obligation. I believe the only flaw it currently has is the one of only using US studies. This however goes for most of the article, likely because the US is the only country with over a number of homeschoolers in the thousands. Species8473 (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a few comments/questions about the "Criticism: Financial obligations" section. 1) The purpose of the section isn't clear - what is the criticism? If one parent stays home and doesn't participate in the labour force, that isn't a criticism of homeschooling. 2) If the purpose is to state financial facts and demographics, then it should go in the main body of the article somewhere - probably in two places - one for demographics, the other for estimated costs of homeschooling. 3) If the Rudner article is indeed flawed, then why are we using the data? 4) The section isn't written very well, but I don't want to touch it as I am not familiar with the studies and it isn't clear to me what the purpose of the section is. Dumb All Over (talk) 00:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I understood it as saying that homeschool can burden families by forcing one parent to stay at home rather than earn money. Seemed like a weak criticism to me, but whatever. Wrad (talk) 00:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Not only is it weak, it's nonexistent. The cited sources say nothing about one parent being "forced" to stay at home, or one parent "excluded" from the labor force, as creating a financial burden. I removed the first two sentences of that section because we can't synthesize conclusions from published sources. However, without those two lead sentences in the section, the whole section no longer appears to be criticism, and should be moved elsewhere in the article. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I merged some of the demographics information from this section (the Rudner and Belfield studies) with the "International status and statistics" section for the United States. Dumb All Over (talk) 02:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

References in popular culture

Should there be a section for this? I can think of a few off the top of my head:

• Mean Girls - the protagonist is homeschooled.
• Hannah Montana - in one episode, the character Lilly masquerading as "Lola" claims to be homeschooled in Canada.
• Charles Webb wrote a sequel to The Graduate called "Home School", the plot of which includes the protagonists fighting for the right to homeschool their children. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TigressofIndia (talk • contribs) 2008-02-06

NO. "Popular culture" sections are equivalent to "trivia" sections, and tend to grow without bound, adding zero value to the article. Please don't. See WP:TRIVIA. Trivia sections are strongly discouraged. -Amatulić (talk) 00:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Germany section

I reverted the section on Germany as violating WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Seanwal11111 put it back with the biased phrasing removed (thanks, good job). However, it still has problems:

• Undue weight. See WP:UNDUE. The section is too long and has too much detail for a general article about home schooling. It needs to be made more concise. The particulars about court cases aren't necessary.
• Improper citing. Please don't just stick a URL between two "ref" tags. See WP:CIT for citation templates. They're easy to use and do all the citation formatting for you.
• Misrepresentation. The first source cited in that section doesn't support the accompanying text. The "source" is just a home page of a web site. If claims are made, they should have specific citations. What articles on that web site can be used instead?

Otherwise, the section without the POV verbage is good enough to keep, provided the problems above are addressed. -Amatulić (talk) 00:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The first source cited is http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/default.asp -- that webpage is an aggregation of cases of parents getting arrested, losing custody of their children, etc., which is exactly what my text is saying. As one example from the list of cases available from that webpage, "The Dudeks... were tried, convicted and fined 900 euros (about $1,200) in May [2007] for not sending their children to school.... Additionally, the local Youth Welfare Office in Hesse filed a case against the family in the local Family Court [to take custody of their children]. But at a July 3 hearing, a judge ruled the Dudeks could keep custody of their six children." On another page we have "Dagmar and Tillman Neubronner were home at their small publishing house in the City-State of Bremen, Germany, when a knock came at the door. Outside were two German marshals who wanted to enter and see if there were any possessions they could seize and sell to pay the $6,300 fine levied against the family because they homeschool their children." There are loads of similar such websites on the internet and it seems to me that one I cited is as good as any of the others.

With regard to your opinion that the text is too detailed, I don't agree, but we can satisfactorily resolve this issue by creating a separate Wikipedia page headed "Home schooling in Germany", and linking to it from "Home schooling". I'll get around to doing it on or before Sunday, but in the meantime if you're impatient don't let me stop you from doing it yourself. seanwal111

The section about Germany is only a small fraction in length compared to the section about United States. And Germany is distinctive because it's (I believe) the only European country where homeschooling is illegal and violators are aggressively prosecuted. I've only wrote two paragraphs. The first states that it's outlawed, and the second states the moral or legal justification for outlawing it. What's wrong with that? seanwal111111

The first source doesn't comply with the verifiability guidelines. It would be better if you selected one or two representative articles to cite instead.

Trimming the Germany section down to the bare essentials, and writing a separate, detailed article about home schooling in Germany, is an excellent idea.

It's enough to state in this article that it's outlawed. The justification for that is best left to a separate article. Highlighting that in this article which is more about the general topic, violates the undue weight guidelines.

I'm not impatient. Wikipedia doesn't have deadlines. -Amatulić (talk) 00:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The first source is the website of the Home School Legal Defense Association, a big website from a hugely-funded US non-profit organization that has staff lawyers that lobby in Washington and at state capitols, and which is constantly gathering news and other information related to home schooling legal issues. It's probably the premiere site in the English language for this issue. Certainly it's an advocate for home schooling, but the notion that its hard news is unreliable is not credible to me.

I firmly disagree that it violates the undue weight guidelines. It lies at the core home schooling issues. The attitude that makes it illegal in Germany lies in the discourse in all countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanwal111111 (talk • contribs) 01:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Collaboration

Hey folks! I'm thinking the first thing I'm going to do is put a tag on everything that doesn't have an inline citation. It's worked in other collaborations I've been part of. We just start by citing everything and then move from that point into expanding the article. Usually as we cite what's already here, we'll start running into what isn't here yet. Wrad (talk) 23:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

This article has been selected as the WikiProject Homeschooling collaboration of the month. Members of that project should be notified about problems with this article at the project's forum. Thank you. DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 19:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

International homeschooling

We need to get all of our bases covered on this. Can someone make a color-coded map of the world showing legality of homeschooling across the world, also another possibly showing # of homeschooled in different countries?

I'm putting together a list here:

• Czech Republic - Legal since 1998 [1]
• Norway - ? 200 in 1998 [2]
• Sweden - Legal, low #s [3]

• South Africa - Legal since 1996, over 10,000
• Guam - Legal [4]
• Japan - Uncertain [5]
• Singapore - Legal since 2003 [6]
• India - Legal [7]
• Israel - Legal [8]
• Belgium - Legal [9]
• Bulgaria - Mostly Illegal [10]
• Hungary - Legal [11]
• Kenya - Legal [12]
• Netherlands - Illegal [13]
• Poland - Legal [14]

--Wrad (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that a couple maps could carry the legality by country issue better than the current section does. I think our list of countries should be reorganized into paragraphs about continents and larger geographic regions and should discuss more than legality. It should discuss history, popularity, etc.

• Homeschooling in Europe [15]

-- Wrad (talk) 01:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to try to work on this. - DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 15:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I have already made a starting map. Zginder ^{(talk) (Contrib)} 15:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Where? - DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 15:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is a draft. Image:Homeschool Legality-World.svg. Zginder ^{(talk) (Contrib)} 15:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Russia—Legal. [16] Zginder ^{(talk) (Contrib)} 17:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I like the four categories of the map: Legal, legal but contested, illegal but uncontested, illegal. Let's list according to that. Wrad (talk) 19:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Should the U.S. by green? Zginder 2008-05-02T22:25Z (UTC)

Is there a source for homeschooling being legal in Greenland? As an article about Greenland states "education is free and compulsory for all children between the ages of 7 and 16". Note that Greenland is completely autonomous since 1979, only before that date it was a colony of European Denmark. Should we reform the European table into an international one? Or create extra tables for other continents? - Species8473 (talk) 17:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Should we change the map legend to the following?

(Green) Legal under no conditions, or only registration

(Yellow) Legal under regulating conditions, usually being mandatory tests and checks

(Orange) Legal under restricting conditions, usually being a teaching certificate or permit required for parents

(Red) Illegal

• In the United States and Switzerland legal status varies by state, colored by most occuring

With that the United States remains yellow as by 1 and Swistzerland orange by 2 - Species8473 (talk) 18:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Homeschooling in Europe

I have done some research on homeschooling in European countries, and created a table to hold all the information. It's quite big so I put it on a seperate page.

Current gaps: Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Georgia, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malta, Monaco, San Marino, Serbia, Vatican City.

Everyone is encouraged to help with the gaps, feel free to take them out the list above when done. Extra sources and information for other countries are most welcome as well.

Current issues:

• Austria, stated as legal in article, but without any source (illegal in my list)
• Slovenia, stated as legal in article, but without proper source (illegal in my list)

Greetings, Species8473 (talk) 18:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you use sources other than Wikipedia? Zginder 2008-05-19T20:44Z (UTC)

Thanks for your help, I agree with you that more sources are needed. Unfortunatly I only speak five of all the many languages used in Europe. I believe the Czech Republic status should be: "Legal under restrictive conditions by temporary experimental law for children aged 5-12"1. This is confirmed at a Czech government page adding "school attendance takes nine years, usually from the age of 6 till the age of 15" 2. I believe this means children have to go to a public school starting age 12. Species8473 (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Alaska

Shouldn't it be yellow, since it's part of the US? Wrad (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it should. I'll try to fix it when I change Spain to green. - DiligentTerrier ^{and friends} 16:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Peer Review 2

I have nominated this article for peer review a second time. Criticism is welcome at the peer review page. Thanks. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 20:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Homeschoolers vs. homeschoolees

Is a homeschooler the parent or the student? Is the other the homeschoolee? Zginder 2008-04-29T21:11Z (UTC)

The homeschooler is the parent; the homeschoolee is the student. Hope that answers your question. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 21:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm concerned this hasn't been made clear enough. Maybe there should be some kind of explanation towards the beginning of the article? - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 21:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this pre-existing terminology or was it made up for the sake of the article? Amillion (talk) 22:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It is pre-existing terminology, but many homeschooling families avoid using the homeschoolee word, and use "homeschooler" for both the educator and student. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 00:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

WHERE is it pre-existing terminology? I've never heard it, and the term "homeschoolee" only gets 95 Google hits, some of which are WP mirrors, and many others are scare-quoted as a neologism. I vote to remove the term from the article. Everyone I know refers to both parents and students as "homeschoolers", in part because they view homeschooling as a collaborative process, not something one person is doing to another. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Although many homeschoolees refer to themselves as "homeschoolers", the fact is that the correct grammar is "homeschoolee" for the student. Wikipedia does not go by "what it seems as though most people do". As for finding citations, homeschoolers are barely on the internet to begin with, and if we are going to go by what the dictionary says, this article might as well be deleted, as homeschooling is not even a completely recognized word ... Google just recently recognized it, but Oxford dictionary does not recognize "homeschooling", "homeschooler", or "homeschoolee", and the built in spell checker that I am using in Firefox says they are all wrong. Even among the homeschooling community, there is a disagreement over how "homeschooling" is spelled. Some spell it like the title of this article. Others spell it "home-schooling" and "home schooling". As the debate of the spelling of these words continues, the fact remains that "homeschooling" is perhaps the most recognized spelling for "education at home", while "homeschooler" is the educator, and "homeschoolee" is the student. So let's move on and not get in a big argument over these little things. Cheers! - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 22:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia also does not condone the creation of terminology for the sake of an article. The "correct" terminology is the terminology which is used by the majority of reputable sources which discuss the topic. If we found that homeschooled students are commonly referred to as homeschoolees, that term would be the correct one to use in the article. However, this does not appear to be true. It is also untrue that "homeschoolers are barely on the internet to begin with." There are a multitude of websites about homeschooling. Also, the fact that there is more than one way to write the word "homeschooling" does not make "homeschoolee" a legitimate term. Amillion (talk) 07:44, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I did a little research on local homeschooling support groups, and I found that with every local homeschooling support group website I have been to, they all hold their discussion in private forums or in email mailing lists, both of which Google does not index. The homeschooling websites that are public range from curriculum sales to tips on how to homeschool, both of which are resources for the homeschoolers - the educators. I don't want this to come off as disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point, but the "correct" terminology is not always the most frequently used. There have been cases where most people use incorrect grammar, but that doesn't make it correct. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 20:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Show me a Wikipedia policy page that says it's correct to use a word that is not used by any reputable sources on the subject simply because one believes it to be a more "grammatical" conjugation.

Here's an example:

I personally don't think that using "chiropractic" as the name of the field is grammatically correct, and think that chiropractors should use "chiropractic medicine" or "chiropracy" or something to that effect. However, all reputable sources on that subject use the term "chiropractic." By your logic, I would be justified in changing the Wikipedia page to reflect my belief. It would not matter what term is actually used. Amillion (talk) 03:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, my judgment was the opposite - that many people may use the incorrect grammar, but that doesn't make it right. So, Wikipedia should go with the correct grammar regardless of what the majority of people say. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 17:39, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

So we should change the chiropractic article to chiropracy or chiropractic medicine then? Even though the consensus in the field is that the correct term is "chiropractic?"

I think we need some kind of administrative dispute resolution process to resolve this. You are the only one who thinks that "homeschoolee" is the proper term, but you are obviously not going to change your mind. Perhaps we should ask for help from the mediation cabal (since the official dispute mediation page suggests that that be tried before formal mediation)? Amillion (talk) 19:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The fact that just 0.02% of the population uses the term 'homeschoolee' as opposed to 'homeschooler' (REF: Googlebattle.com: 464,000 results for 'homeschooler' vs. 114 for 'homeschoolee') or that not one single reputable dictionary uses the term, or that not one profile on Spock.com is referenced as a 'homeschoolee' or that not one single website of a leading, respected homeschooling organization uses the term is irrelevant. Digital Terrier is the all knowing expert on all things grammer and the singular voice for all homeschoolers (whoops, "homeschoolees") and we just blindly accept the fact that everything he says on the issue must be true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristianLAX (talk • contribs) 17:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all my name is not Digital Terrier. Second, please do not make personal attacks. Third, if you claim that you know grammar and I don't, then why did you just spell "grammar" wrong? I don't think we need administrator intervention on this. You need to stop bringing up your Google search results as the answer to this issue. I have already said that homeschoolers mainly interact through emails and private forums, which are not indexed by Google. The point is that just as it took a while for the homeschooling community to accept the correct spelling of homeschooling, it may take a while before they accept the correct grammar - homeschoolees. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 20:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

And until that time, we ought to continue to use the word that is used.

I am going to remove the section you re-added. I propose that we keep it out of the article until such time as a decision is reached. Please do not re-add it. I think we really do need administrative intervention, because I think we have come to an impasse. Until we know what Wikipedia's policy is on the matter, no decision can be reached. Although ChristianLAX, Wahoofive, and I do not think one ought to create a term for the purpose of this article, you disagree and show no sign of changing your mind.

By the way, although ChristianLAX's comment was verging on a personal attack, s/he does have a point. The legitimacy of this term cannot be established, because it is used by no reputable sources. Amillion (talk) 21:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible compormise: I have alway heard students say they were homeschooled, and do not use the nouns homeschoolers or homeschoolees. Homeschoolers are the teachers only. Where do we need to explicitly refer to the students in the article anyway? Zginder 2008-05-05T13:23Z (UTC)

OK, I've already given up with this (for now, at least), as you can see at the RFC section below, but I say we refer to them as "homeschooled students" (if necessary). - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 20:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think that we should use either "homeschooled students" or "homeschooled individuals" depending on the context. Amillion (talk) 21:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Homeschooled students/individuals/people" is probably the least troublesome theoretically consistent solution, but the claims that homeschooler is technically incorrect and that homeschoolee is technically correct are worth reconsidering. Anyone interested may find the following helpful. If this post is technically and categorically excessive or breaks any other requirements you have my apologies and I hope someone deletes it appropriately.

English contains a limited number of action-undergoer words that end in -ee and that are fixed entries in the dictionary, such as employee. These words typically come from French, where -ee can be used as the equivalent of "someone who has been verbed." Distinct from this is the fact that in English we can also use -ee on just about any verb to produce an action-undergoer word, and the result will usually be readily comprehensible; but that does not make it a fixed, established word you will find in a good dictionary. The distinction I am informally describing as "fixed word" versus "produced word" is technically more often referred to with such terms as "lexicalized" versus "productive." Productive suffixes are free for use just about anywhere, while lexicalized words are learned and, by comparison, unpredictable. When a lexicalized word for a concept exists, its use is preferred over alternative, productive formations, though the latter are still comprehensible. For example, -ness can be added to any adjective to create a comprehensible quality noun, but if an alternative noun for the same concept already exists then that one is preferred (humility over humbleness, arrogance over arrogantness, and so on). Calling humbleness or arrogantness incorrect is only correct if you realize this: in and of themselves the words are perfectly understandable and regularly formed, and their only demerit is that other, less predictable, lexicalized words for the same concepts already exist and a principle of English grammar calls for us to prefer these.

Now, what's special about -ee is that its productive use is not fully integrated into English grammar. It is a suffix borrowed from French and generally recognizable in English, but not yet fully native. This may be one reason that it is also used inconsistently, if one considers attendee as inconsistent (logically meaning "one who gets attended" but used with the meaning "one who attends"). Inconsistent usage suggests that English users don't fully understand -ee the way they understand native productive suffixes like -ness. But if attendee becomes established as the standard for the majority of the population, then it will make its way into dictionaries and become a recognized, lexical, correct form despite being inconsistent. Language is notoriously inconsistent.

As an illustration of this point take another suffix, -ant. In French this is the active participle, an active counterpart of -ee (both have spelling variants we'll ignore here). It had a similar function in Latin. But while -ant is acceptable in many lexicalized English cases (borrowings from French and Latin), English speakers do not recognize it as productive. So attendant is a word because it is registered in the dictionary (lexicalized), but it is not a word you could produce on the spot without having ever heard it before and expect to be understood. There are grey areas here; I tried out a clearly incorrect sentence *I was enjoyant of that once (= I was enjoying it) and the person did in fact understand, but still clearly registered by her face that something wasn't right, meaning her grammar contained no rule for the productive use of -ant. Now the productive use of -ee has become fairly acceptable, unlike that of -ant, but it is still not standardized and fully integrated into English.

Homeschoolee is a productive formation, which makes it readily understandible and in principle acceptable; yet because it is produced with a suffix that has been borrowed from another language and not yet fully integrated into English, the word will still not strike most people as being completely and unremarkably consistent with native English word formation rules.

Separately, because homeschoolee is a productive formation rather than a lexicalized one, if a different term is already established as the standard, lexicalized word for the same idea, then that term should be preferred, not homeschoolee. The lexicalized term is preferable even when its history is irregular. "Incorrect" forms (forms that are inconsistent with some previously accepted rule or pattern) are often generated in language evolution, but once they become generally accepted and lexicalized, they become correct at a later stage. If you want to decide whether to say homeschoolee or something else, you need to look at the candidates for "something else" and see if any of them is the established, generally accepted terms used by the majority of modern English speakers today even in formal, educated, written styles. If you find such a term, and particularly if no official national grammar-policing institution has condemned it, you should use it. Continuing to insist on using homeschoolee is not "correct," particularly when you have cited no particular source other than your personal understanding of grammatical structure, which in this case really boils down to a rule you have assumed, that action-undergoer words ought to be formed with -ee, not -er.

In fact both parts of that conjectural grammar rule should be questioned. The use of -ee cannot be obligatory in English because the suffix is only a partially integrated loan. But also, the use of -er to express an action-undergoer is not necessarily incorrect. It depends on whether the source verb has a generalized intransitive use, where the undergoer of the action is also viewed as the person experiencing and thus in some sense doing the action. ("In some sense" covers a range of options here, with variables including the amount to which the person is affected, and the amount of volition and control they have.) That the verb homeschool has such an intransitive use is clear. That is, besides its transitive use with a direct object (We homeschool our children), it is used without an indirect object; here the subject can be the instructors, the instructors plus the students (typically a family unit), or just the students: As parents we decided not to send our kids to public school; we homeschool. - Our family homeschools. - We do homeschooling at our house. - Those kids don't go to public school; they do homeschooling.

The point is not whether one can license these sentences based on logic alone... one can rationalize all kinds of things no one ever says. The point is that the rationale has led in this case to a standard and accepted convention among users. (Language is conventional in this sense anyway; disagreements between prescriptivist English grammar teachers and the general populace really resolve into differences of opinion on which rules ought to be the accepted convention, not on intrinsically correct rules vs intrinsically irrational anarchy.) The intransitive use of the verb homeschool is what made it possible to describe those who do homeschooling as homeschoolers even in reference to the students. It is the fact that this latter use has caught on and become the accepted norm that makes it arguably legitimate.

While the debate about homeschoolee on this page thus does have a technically, linguistically correct answer (homeschoolee is comprehensible but not "the correct" form ousting other productive or lexicalized options), it should also be acknowledged that in situations where correct grammar is debated and no clear and comprehensible answer has won general agreement, it is always better to go with common usage (which homeschoolee is not). This is more practical for those who feel long linguistic discussions are low on their priority list especially in articles not primarily about linguistics anyway.

I hope this is helpful but please correct any errors. I consulted no sources here but if anyone wants bibliography on anything I could look for it at some point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.232.251.220 (talk) 00:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

I've done quite a bit of work cleaning this article up and re-writing a few sections. Any thoughts on the changes I've made? - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 22:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It's difficult to see what you've changed based on the edit history. Give it a look yourself and you'll see what I mean. Amillion (talk) 08:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Educational games

The paragraph about educational games in the "methodology" section seems to be condoning a particular point of view, and it also seems out of place/irrelevant. This paragraph reads:

Recently, the parents of both home schooled children and compulsory education schools are using educational games to make learning fun. Educational games cross the barrier between both types of schooling. They are intended to give children a positive attitude towards learning, and self-motivation. In response to the popularity of educational computer games, a wide variety of subjects are now covered in these games. Free online schools including colleges have made home schooling an easier transition from compulsory education, because the computer teaches the child instead of a parent or teacher, allowing the parent time to work their job. Free job training can also be learned online for those who can't afford college tuition, or who live far from schools. Amillion (talk) 08:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I just re-wrote it, although I feel there may still be some point of view left in that paragraph. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 21:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The use of the term "homeschoolee" rfc

Is "homeschoolee" the only grammatically correct term for homeschooled students, and should it therefore be used regardless of whether or not it is used by outside sources, or is the term inappropriate for a Wikipedia article because it is not used by reputable sources? (In other words, should the extent to which a term is used by credible sources determine whether or not it is used on Wikipedia?)

• Don't use homeschoolee. Reputable sources are the key, and grammar is determined by the way words are actually used in real life, anyway. Wrad (talk) 22:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Homeschooling :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.12.190.144 (talk) 18:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'd like to forget about this for now; I'll do a little research on it and come back another time, maybe. Could you please withdraw the RFC? Thanks. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 20:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to leave it so that other editors can weigh in on the issue, but I will remove your name from it. Amillion (talk) 21:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, please note that there is another rfc on List of homeschoolees discussing the same issue with the intention of determining whether or not the current title is appropriate. Amillion (talk) 22:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Wrad on his line starting with "Don't use homeschoolee..". The government12, media12 and homeschooling organisations12 all use homeschooler(s)/homeschooled and not homeschoolee. I believe this issue takes far too much time and place over a non existing word. Species8473 (talk) 20:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"The following editors" tag

The tag on this page that says "The following user(s) are actively contributing to this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources," although it explicitly states otherwise, does actually imply article ownership. Questions about verification and sources should be placed on the talk page where any editor can respond. I think that this tag should be removed. Amillion (talk) 22:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I am going to remove it pending discussion. Amillion (talk) 22:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I you feel that it implies article ownership, then you can nominate the template for deletion, as you do not have grounds to remove it. I am going to re-add it, and you can add your name if you want. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 16:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Alright, how do I nominate it for deletion? Amillion (talk) 19:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

"Assume good faith" seems to be a good rule here. You can assume that it implies ownership, or you can believe what it says, that the people listed can be sought for answers to questions regarding sources. Wrad (talk) 20:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Without doubting any good faith, I wonder what kind of advantage the template gives. It has been there for a couple of month now, while it doesn't seem like it has ever been used. More importantly though we have a perfect talk page right here, that does not rely on one editor being familiar with the specific subject or even worse be available and active at all. Logically concluded using the article talk page provides the best answers in the shortest amount of time for those seeking help or information. With another added advantage that all contributers to the article can keep track of and discuss on ongoing talks by monitoring one talk page. Currently the template is just another one in the list, being a distraction for other information. And if it is going to be used I'm missing the advantage as well. Species8473 (talk) 15:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe that following the template guidelines it shouldn't have been put there in the first place. It clearly states "do not place this template on the talk pages of controversial articles that are easily subject to POV wars". This page is full of complaints about POV and bias: opposing views, biased research, the page blithely offers positive studies as the truth, NPOV, heavily biased, NPOV again, efforts to edit out POV from research section. And those are only for the last year, many more of them in the archives. Species8473 (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Homeschool Legality World Map

The map I'm commenting on: homeschool legality world I think some of the information on it isn't correct. Starting with the Netherlands, where I happen to live. Homeschooling is not completely illegal in the Netherlands, it just has very high requirments, is opposed by political parties, and we virtually have none. Belgium has a similar situation, home schooling is allowed, but only if the parents prove able. And although the number of homeschooled children is higher, it's still a very tiny percentage. Sweden I believe should be yellow, virtually no homeschooled children and opposed by major political parties. I think a good improvement for the map would be to change orange into meaning legal under restricted conditions. And with that I would think about anything that goes further then registration. Another improvement for the map would be if it gives an indication on the percentage of home schoolers. Countries like Poland, Ireland, Czech, and earlier mentioned virtually have none. - Species8473 (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The Map was meant to show legality not population. Zginder 2008-05-17T12:50Z (UTC)

I am aware of that, the part of the article it's next to however is on international status AND statistics. My idea is to add extra lighter/darker colors indicating the percentage of home schoolers. For example the United States and United Kingdom become dark yellow/green while Ireland, Sweden, Poland, the Netherlands (etc.) are given a light color. Unfortunately you're not giving your opinion on the idea. Another option would be an extra map. - Species8473 (talk) 13:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of change the USA to green. Do you have sources that say it is legal in the Netherlands and Belgium? Zginder 2008-05-17T16:22Z (UTC)

In the Netherlands homeschooling is legal in case the parents can't find a public school fitting their beliefs in the area. In Belgium homeschooling is legal for parents with a teaching certificate. I have this information from the Dutch wikipedia article, it is accurate to my knowledge and in line with other Dutch sources I checked. The status "legal under restrictive conditions" fits best for the Netherlands and Belgium, and possibly other countries as well. China currently is the only orange country, while I believe it should be red in line with the article concluding illegal. For the United States I would say green, but the state of California orange. Legal under the restriction that parents have a teaching degree. Unless the court decides otherwise during the re-hearing in june. Sweden I believe should be yellow: http://www.thelocal.se/10982/20080408/ I haven't checked all the other countries, I do believe they could use one to ensure the maps accuracy. Do you happen to have a complete list of sources you used when creating the map? - Species8473 (talk) 21:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I would not consider legal with teaching certificate, legal at all. The map has one area for the 48 states of the USA so I have to make it one color. Most of my sources are in the International homeschooling heading above, I also used [17] for other counties. I will change Sweden to yellow per that link and the one above I used before. Zginder 2008-05-17T22:10Z (UTC)

Can you comment on my idea of changing orange into meaning legal under restricted conditions? In both Belgium and the Netherlands a number of people is legally homeschooling. Note that Belgium currently is green on your map, apparently some find homeschooling is legal in Belgium, while other don't. Again showing the demand for the status I proposed. - Species8473 (talk) 22:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

What colors do you want the Netherlands and Belgium to be? Zginder 2008-05-17T23:12Z (UTC)

This is a map the Home School Legal Defense Association has made about the various stated in the USA. Could we use a similar system? Zginder 2008-05-17T23:18Z (UTC)

My proposal: Green: Legal, Yellow: Mostly Legal; may be disputed in most political subdivisions, Orange: Legal under restrictive conditions, Red: Illegal. The only issue we have to decide on will be where the borders are. Personally I think if a country only requires registration and/or testing it should be either green or yellow. For those are merely regulations instead of restrictions, and do not prevent a parent from homeschooling. Countries (or states) that require parents to have a teaching degree (Belgium/California), or only allow it if no public school suiting the parents beliefs is available in the area (Netherlands), are examples for the orange category for they are clearly restrictive conditions and do stop a group of parents from homeschooling.

The HSLDA map is nice, but the legend not sufficient for the world because it has no illegal status. A darker red can be added, but the largest issue currently is that we don't have all the data. The article has a written section on some countries, once existing data on regulations and restrictions has been added there, that information is ready to make entrance to the map. And at that time the legend can be expanded. - Species8473 (talk) 00:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I changed the map; if you have more changes to you would like made, change it yourself or reply here. Zginder 2008-05-19T12:50Z (UTC)

Major flaws in Rudner study

Report: http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/

• Voluntary participation
• Student grade placement was decided by parents
• Tests were supervised by homeschooling parents
• Funded with money from HSLDA

Any comments on these points before I add them to the "criticism of supportive achievements studies" section? - Species8473 (talk) 16:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Lack of sources in Methodology section

Wikipedia requires content to be verifiable. Especially the methodology section seems to need work there. Under educational games fact templates have already been added. But all-in-one curricula, student-paced learning and community resources completely lack any sources. I trust this information wasn't made up, but things like "homeschooles often take advantage of.." and "groups of homeschooling families often.." should be backed up by sources and/or statistics.

I have checked on the history of the community resources section, and it appears to date back to March 2005. With an extra paragraph added at July 2007. Lucky enough Wahoofive is still among us so perhaps he has some sources.

Greetings, Species8473 (talk) 17:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Famous Homeschoolers

Maybe we should discuss this? Do we want such a list in the article? Or prefer a section where it is also mentioned why they are notable? And who is to be in the list/section, who not? I personally have issues with Abraham Lincoln, Sandra Day O'Conner and Winston Churchill being in the list. The source used seems to list people as soon as they read a book at home once in combination with being famous. For example Sandra Day O'Conner in the list, she "attended the Radford School, a private academy for girls, from kindergarten through high school." 1 Even Albert Einstein made it to that 2 list, and he clearly was never homeschooled 3. Species8473 (talk) 21:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Nice new list, I'm sure we can get it up to a thousand items in no time! However, it could classify as a copyright violation for the source. And I would say it is not a reliable source either. Species8473 (talk) 05:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone explain how Chad Kennedy (stated to be editor of some website, full of advertising and no visitors) is notable? I believe this person being in the list says enough about how reliable the source is. Another person in the list Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, is stated to be "self-taught"1. And Charles Evans Hughes was enrolled in a "private school"2. I'm not going to bother checking the entire list, these examples clearly show the source is not reliable. Species8473 (talk) 06:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I originally came to this section a few days ago wanting some basic facts on homeschooling. One of the questions that I had was "are they any examples of home-schooled students?". This section is useful and needs to be improved. Different people will have different opinions as to how many hours, days, or years and what kind of education qualifies as home schooling. The specifics are ultimately a matter of opinion; the fundamental issue is home education and the role that it plays in the development of the human person, and the kinds of people that consider themselves home schooled. We must reject any simplistic efforts to assume that all home schooling is of only one kind. There have been a diverse range of educational efforts throughout history. Snow555 (talk) 14:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a few days before your quest the wikipedia list of homeschooled individuals was removed. It was however removed for the same issues that this new list has. To quote the administrator that removed it: "I did think about just ruthlessly trimming this to properly sourced entries, but there would've been practically nothing left once we'd removed the entries sourced to blogs, a forum, user-generated content sites and HomeSchoolAcademy.com. More problematically, though, the exact definition of "homeschooling" is vague (for example, should someone who only became homeschooled as a teenager be included?). WP:NOT#IINFO appears to apply here, and I am also mindful of User:Ecoleetage's comments." (Black Kite). As WP:NOT#INFO applies here too, the condition of verifiability is even worse, and I have already proven it to be flawed on a number of examples earlier. I'm going to follow this example and remove it. For a new list I would prefer we come to a consensus first, and have made a proposal for that below this section. But with or without consensus, wikipedia policy should be followed. Species8473 (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope User:Diligent Terrier can explain why it was justified to revert my deletion of the list over prior explained violation of wikipedia policies. Species8473 (talk) 18:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed the references needed tag. There is a reference to the full list, which is from a noted homeschooling cite. It is sufficient, but could be improved. To the people who keep placing various tags throughout the article, PLEASE start adding more citations instead of cluttering the article with tags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManBuiltPrice (talk • contribs) 15:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Most of the names are linked to other Wiki articles that mention that the person had some homeschooling; the citation that is used comes from a source that is generally reputable, as far as I can tell (no evidence has been presented to the contrary). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snow555 (talk • contribs) 03:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I have already provided examples on where the source if flawed. Neither you nor DiligentTerrier have gone into those specific points. Also when someone removes this questionable source, or after I removed the list, it is being restored with as argument that it should be discussed. While the list was put there completely ignoring the discussion starting May 29th in the first place. This cause of action is almost as questionable as the used source. Species8473 (talk) 04:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Upon further investigation I believe that the linked reports are generally accurate. I spent a lot of time on this (because of your skepticism). I could not verify ALL of the information, but the practice of finding one or two flaws to discard entire articles, which has mostly accurate and directly relevant information is unjustified.Snow555 (talk) 11:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm tired of the dispute over this unreliable adsense filled source, I will fix the double source entries again and work on the child abuse section instead.Species8473 (talk) 12:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm challenging the Rosa Parks list entry, as I have been reading through a lot of internet biographies now, but have not found one of them stating she was homeschooled or anything along those lines. While a short biography about her states that she did go to a school. It does add to that the situation in the school was bad because of racism, but this alone indicates she went to a school. Another internet biography about her states: "When she completed her education in Pine Level at age eleven, her mother, Leona, enrolled her in Montgomery Industrial School for Girls".

I have also removed sources that provide merely a list of names. They are poor as reliable source and on verifiability, and not interesting for those looking them up for extra information on what kind of homeschooling the person received. I did not remove the "So - Why Do You Homeschool?" book as source, because this one does provide a limited amount of extra information.Species8473 (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

About Rosa Parks, see [18]. Species8473, I don't appreciate it that several people go and find references and then you delete them because you have subjective opinions about their valididty. Unless you can show that the source is not clearly wrong, the source should stand on its own merit; let the reader decide.HomePolice (talk) 21:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Making the grade had two pages about homeschooling, at the end of the second page a small list of "famous homeschoolers". It does however give no additional information or source. And people that clearly were self-educated (such as Abraham Lincoln) are also in the list. If you think this was a great source you can put it back, and I will bring it to the reliable sources noticeboard. Or you can do this yourself. However, I believe it to be very counter productive as there are enough biographies on the internet and google books. They do provide a full useful section about what kind of education a person received. I'm not interested in discussing the homeschool.net source any further, if you don't agree with it's removal there are a ton of issues with it above you can waste your time on.Species8473 (talk) 06:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

Proposal for section about notable homeschooled people. With as goal to provide useful factual information. I have kept the discussion over deletion of homeschooled individuals in mind while creating it:

• As in line with wikipedia policy, there must be a proper source, such as a biography. If there is none the person may not be notable enough.
• The person must have been homeschooled, no schooling that better fits under self education or private schooling.
• The homeschooling must be notable. Someone that was homeschooled for only a very short time, or simply because the entire country had no educational system is not.
• Relevant information should be included, such as what kind of homeschooling the person received, and why. And what other education if applicable.

Example: Thomas Alva Edison, an American inventor and businessman, was taught reading, writing and arithmetic by his mother. Before that he left school for only three month, where he had trouble following the lessons. Most of his other education he received from reading books on his own.1 And for this example I would say it is questionable at point two and three, because most of his education seems to have been originated from self education through reading books. So that makes a good point for discussion.

Please state if you think this is a good proposal. Species8473 (talk) 12:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but if someone was homeschooled, they were homeschooled. Period. Their homeschooling does not have to be notable. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 13:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The reason behind that proposed point is for the section to result into providing good examples of notable homeschooled people. Not a list of names as big as possible. I would say a section describing the homeschooling of ten notable people enriches the article far more then a plain list with any number of entries. Species8473 (talk) 14:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

That may be true, but Wikipedia is based on facts, not what "enriches" articles. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 14:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It is required by wikipedia policy1, and most particial, to come up with a clear membership criteria. If you think my proposed criteria have issues, we can try to improve them, or you can make your own proposition. I personally don't think someone that received homeschooling for two years, and received the rest of his/her education in public education, should be in this list. Species8473 (talk) 16:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

You personally do not think that. Sorry, but that is not how Wikipedia works. Also please do not spoof comments from other users. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 16:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It is however how this proposal works, if you have fundamental issues with it you can write your own. Without strict criteria it will be a violation of WP:NOT#IINFO. For that I currently see no reason to change my proposal on that point. The reason for moving the comment by ManBuiltPrice was because it had nothing to do with this proposal, therefore it was completely justified. Species8473 (talk) 16:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

If somebody went to Harvard (or any university) for two years and dropped out, that would be mentioned in most biographical articles; if so, why would a specific schooling experience at Home by famous individuals be excluded here?? Snow555 (talk) 17:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Because we are not writing a biography here, and this list or prose (as preferred by wikipedia policy) should only contain the most notable homeschooled people. If you don't agree with that, and have a better solution that will result in a list of reasonable size under clear criteria, you are most welcome to propose it. If you want to list all famous people that received some sort of education at home, I think this should be done at either a seperate website or seperate wikipedia article. This per Wikipedia:NOT#IINFO Species8473 (talk) 18:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

This was a reason the article was deleted. to many people that were not really homeschooled are on the list. I could remove the section as recreation of deleted content. We need strong criteria for inclusion or this article is POV.

I have made my proposal as the the criteria we should use.

• As in line with wikipedia policy, there must be a proper source, such as a biography. If there is none the person may not be notable enough.
• The person must have been homeschooled, when free public school were available or modern (post 1950 westerns who grew up in the middle of nowhere.).
• The homeschooling must be have been for at least one year.
• Relevant information should be included, such as what kind of homeschooling the person received, and why. And what other education if applicable.

Zginder 2008-06-02T15:21Z (UTC)

Only the first and second criteria seem good. The second is difficult because whether someone is homeschooled is a binary variable that has nothing at all to do with choice or necessity. The fourth criterion is problematic because of the subjective nature regarding what information is deemed relevant. HomePolice (talk) 22:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

History

I don't believe the current section is accurate. No sources have been added, and one of the editors has ignored comments on his talk page. But to the point, during the early middle ages European countries like France had free public education.1 And before that ancient Greece and Rome were known to have both voluntary and compulsory educational systems.2 Even if countries had no educational system at all, this does not mean "the vast majority of people were schooled at home". I would say that they simply received no education at all, as is the case in many third world countries today. Species8473 (talk) 08:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. "No formal education" is not the same as "no education". (for treatment of this and a full discussion please see the articles on "education" entries in the Encyclopedia Britannica- they are quite good), Much of the education most of us receive in life happens outside of formal systems; the book "the education of Henry Adams" is all about this.Snow555 (talk) 00:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello, great you found your way to the talk page. The words "schooled at home" are used, dictionary definition: "to educate in or as if in a school"1 And for homeschooling: "to instruct in an educational program outside of established schools".2 The current section states that until recently almost everyone was homeschooled, and for that I would like to see a proper source. Species8473 (talk) 05:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad for the discussion. I agree that there are many ways of schooling (and the notion of schooling itself have evolved much over the past 3000+ years, and varies considerably, so we would need to agree on essential features, which I would be happy to discuss). The word and meaning of "school" has changed a lot since its roots in antiquity (for instance, see the entry in the full version (20-volume) Oxford Dictionary of the English Language; it is quite good; it the Oxford (which is the standard Dictionary of scholarly research), the definition that seems most constant through the ages is "place of instruction" - would you agree with this?). Snow555 (talk) 11:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with the definition "place of instruction" for a school. However, I don't find it very relevant. The question is if the term homeschooling fits in a situation where children never even learned how to read. And I would say no to that. The homeschooling this article is about I would say counts for situations where children receive schooling similar to in a school. Either way, I believe wikipedia is quite clear at this point, a reliable source is to be used. Currently there is no source at all. Species8473 (talk) 12:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

After further study and investigation, education at home seems more universal than this article currently reflects. I have consulted a number of scholarly books on the subject; Erasmus of Rotterdam (in his book "Education of a Christian prince", Cambridge University Press, 1974) contends that proper education begins in the cradle, and this idea is found in other books as well. Most Children are educated both at home and outside the home until they are at least 5 years of age; after which they may be formally instructed in several ways, including formal schooling. However, many after school activities also have educational purpose, whether it be music lessons, martial arts training, religious training, or other extracurricular training that may be provided by parents, tutors, or specially-trained professionals. Each of these may happen in its own time and place, and contribute to one's education. Thus, home education can be understood as a part of education more generally; what is being discussed in this article is basically to what extent formal methods are used, when, and by whom. I have added Queen Elizabeth as an example of home education because this is a high-visibility example of what home education can be. Many young actors and athletes can't attend normal schools because of their schedules, and thus are given lessons in the home or elsewhere, by tutors. These examples help to illustrate a very great range of educational solutions. Snow555 (talk) 17:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

(our last messages crossed). I will try to find a reference, no problem. Snow555 (talk) 13:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Schooling and Instruction is a kind of education- one can not conclude, therefore, that one without schooling is one without education. Regarding a reference, I will repair the article; a full history of education, including formal schooling, can be found in various editions of the Encyclopedia Britannica. I use this because it is more reliable than citing web-pages. This is very illuminating; I suggest that you read it. The 15th edition (1994) give a wide range of educational practices throughout history. The treatment of education in the classic ("scholar's") 11th edition (1910) states "the mass of people in every European country remained without schooling throughout the 18th century" (page 959). This does not necessarily mean that they were not educated (apprenticeships were common in those days, for instance). Snow555 (talk) 13:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Problems with "Child Abuse" section

The final paragraph of this section is indirectly related to homeschooling, it seems. This whole page should be neutral of this sort of innuendo, I propose. Snow555 (talk) 17:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Child abuse is probably the number one argument used against homeschooling. There is a huge thread about this on richarddawkins.net, it has been linked to homeschooling in the media numerous times, and once by a superior court judge. The statistics back up the statement in the first paragraph. And add to that relevant information on child abuse reported by public school teachers. I believe the section is written neutral, stating there are "no studies available that show a direct correlation for homeschooling resulting in an higher amount of child abuse", even though it is at the criticism section of the article. Species8473 (talk) 18:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

But the media says many things, and Richard Dawkins is not exactly know for his even-handedness. To cite 2 or 3 media reports on a baseline of millions of home-schooling families is about as unfair as arguing against police departments because of one or two bad cops. Of for that matter, school districts for teachers who engage in abusive activities with students. This entry demands real numbers relating directly to homeschoolers, and some agreement as to what constitutes a significant incident rate of abuse. Additionally, I still think that this discussion seems to fit better in child abuse, not homeschooling. Snow555 (talk) 19:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say Professor Richard Dawkins is a fine source, when subjects related to biology are involved. I have no idea what his opinion is on homeschooling, and referred to that forum topic only as extra source showing child abuse is often mentioned by people being critical of homeschooling. In the article I use CBS News and Marcia Herman-Giddens (DrPH, associate professor of public health, North Carolina Department of Maternal and Child Health in Chapel Hill) as source. I could add more sources, but I'm not sure if more of the same will improve anything. However, articles such as the ones from CBS have been in the news numerous times, and child abuse is often referred to in court cases and rulings. If you have a source that fits under your definition of "real numbers relating directly to homeschoolers" please do leave a link here. I believe currently the most relevant numbers are used, and where applicable they are critical against the criticism as well. Species8473 (talk) 20:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok. However, see pp 58-60 in the book "So why do I homeschool?". (see [19]. The author cites relevant statistics and comparisons, and examines some of the same studies that you cite. Overall, her evidence suggests that schools can be more dangerous than homes for students (and teachers), and that socioeconomic and cultural demographics may matter. In sum, I don't think that there is enough conclusive evidence to make strong claims about homeschooling and child abuse in a sweeping, generalized way.Snow555 (talk) 14:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

She goes into the same CBS News cases. And says she doesn't think child abuse happens in isolation. And that families highlighted were all involved with protective services. However the Warren family "tried to keep social workers out" until it was too late. And on the same report Marcia Herman-Giddens (DrPH) states "there's so little supervision that they really are not protecting those kids". For the other cases there is not even a mention of protective services at work. With that Marcia Herman-Giddens states "there is a subgroup of people that are keeping them in isolation, keeping them from public view because the children often have visible injuries". Species8473 (talk) 23:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You have failed to report more than one side of the CBS News story, and have simply regurgitated it as a reliable source over and over again in spite of substantial controversy which arose as a result. You have cherry picked comments supporting your view from numerous articles in deliberate acts of contextomy. I have updated the article to give both sides of the story, including citing articles mentioning the members of congress who protested the CBS report. Your repeated returns to a single "expert" and the lack of any further citations since indicate to me that you are, in fact, simply bluffing when you claim you can provide any further RELIABLE citations. You have repeatedly attempted to bias the article over the last few weeks with your edits which makes it EXTREMELY difficult to assume good faith per Wikipedia policy. At this point, any changes would clearly demonstrate that you wish to excise any opposition to your belief (which appears to be based on a pair of dubious news stories from CBS). You have consistently selected the most biased way to express things while claiming NPOV, which you obviously have no grasp of. Your efforts have been facile and transparent, and your assumptions ludicrous. You clearly joined Wikipedia to edit this article, as it has been your only real activity since joining a couple of weeks ago. In most cases, when someone does something like this, they are called a troll. CokeBear (talk) 07:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

As I wrote before, and you must have already read this: "I refute the point that the section relies on her opinion, as the opinion of the families advocate is also noted." I have also pointed to homeschooling court cases where child abuse is involved. And I do actually have many edits on the Dutch wikipedia - not one involved with homeschooling. Finally I would like to point out that, even though other parts of the article have been reported (by other editors - see archives) to read as homeschooling propaganda. Describing a critical point, even if seen as inflammatory by a certain group, should be possible under the "criticism" section of the article.Species8473 (talk) 09:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Snow555, that this section would be better placed in an article about "Child Abuse". This section suffers from "Undue Weight" (NPOV 2.3) in its focus on a few freak incidents and its reliance on the opinions of Marcia Herman-Giddens of the North Carolina Child Advocacy Institute. This section is irrelevant to homeschooling and I wonder whether the bias of one editor is effecting the neutrality of the article. Dumb All Over (talk) 00:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The news articles by CBS are notable because they have received a lot of attention. Google returns ~117.000 results if you search for keywords related to them. With accuracy in mind, I have checked the first five pages of results, and they are all about the news articles in question. I believe the opinion of Marcia Herman-Giddens is notable because she can be regarded as expert on child abuse and neglect1. And has been one of the people reviewing the cases in question. I refute the point that the section relies on her opinion, as the opinion of the families advocate is also noted. On your point of "bias of one editor", personally I see no reason to delete this section over the bias of one group of editors with newly created accounts.Species8473 (talk) 11:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh! I see? Well, MY account is not newly created, and I agree with the people you are arguing with 100%. Your biases are obvious. You are trying to express an OPINION in a Wikipedia article - and that's a no-no. On top of that, I find it interesting that you would say something about "newly created accounts" when yours is, in fact, mere weeks old as well. It's time for you to move on, your contributions are simply meant to express your personal viewpoint and appear to be deliberately inflammatory. CokeBear (talk) 06:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe we won't have any editors left if everyone with an opinion about the subject is to be excluded. And in line with that not many sources either, as all the supportive research presented in this article is done by or with money and/or in cooperation with the HSLDA and NHERI. The material you added further establishes my point that the news items are notable, and this part should not be subject to removal. I do believe it should be added that while 33 members of the congress signed this letter, 402 members did not. For example: ".. and 33 out of 435 members of Congress signed a letter adressed to..". On the material you added to the Janet Napolitano section, she has later stated to want mandatory kindergarten statewide 1. The current "No changes were deemed necessary or ever publicly proposed." contradicts that.Species8473 (talk) 09:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The recent changes to the Child abuse section are an improvement, however I am still of the view that the entire section should be deleted. It isn't at all clear that "Child abuse" is a valid criticism of homeschooling. The CBS News source does not establish this, and the integrity and neutrality of their reporting on this matter has been discredited. If "Child abuse" as an issue is going to be raised, it ought to be supported with much better verifiable sources. I have removed the section accordingly.Dumb All Over (talk) 13:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

All sources have issues with neutrality, and though some parties have seen reason to discredit CBS News. I haven't seen anything about that in direction of Marcia Herman-Giddens. The letter from Congress members was signed by 33 members, but 402 members did not. And even if they would have all signed it, with a signature from George W. Bush as bonus, that would make it even more reason to keep this section. Here is a page on a homeschooling website listing some cases as well: Homeschooling in the Media. And some court cases where homeschooling was mentioned or the primary reason for the ruling: 1 2 3 4.Species8473 (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I have made a request for a third opinion at the neutral point of view noticeboard. Species8473 (talk) 19:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is that the section about child abuse is totally irrelevant for the article on homeschooling, and therefore should be completely deleted. The fact that we can find on internet a few cases where someone accused someone of child abuse involving homeschooling does not make it relevant for an encyclopedic text. Saying that "there are no studies indicating a correlation of child abuse with homeschooling" not only does NOT make it neutral, but also proves that what was written before has no relevance either to be here or on any other article. I also recommend that we should delete this article until this dispute is resolved. How can we do that? as it seems that it was tried before and Species8473 keeps undoing it. Mlonguin (talk) 03:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

My fourth opinion (representing the vast majority of countries, that don't even allow homeschooling, and the vast majority of people, as even in the country with the most homeschoolers - the United States - only 2% of the students is homeschooled - before they go to a public school). Is that we wait for the opinion of one or more experienced and active editors that at least have the appearance of being more or less neutral.Species8473 (talk) 07:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The Child abuse section is totally irrelevant and should be deleted in its entirety. It appears that Species8473 is the only person pushing for inclusion of this section. Valid criticism is fine, but Species8473 appears to be uninformed about homeschooling and his contributions to this and other sections are not improving the article. Dumb All Over (talk) 10:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Verifiablility & Neutrality of Homeschooling fo Child Abuse

MightySmall (talk) 23:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I would like question the verifiability and neutrality of the very far fetched criticism of homeschooling for the purpose of 'Child Abuse'.

I would liken this to having section in "School" stating that one criticism of school is that some group up to be murderers, rapists, and child abusers, or that many schooled children have commited violent and sometimes deadly acts of violence. There are even many ancedotal examples of teachers using their position of power to abuse children, mentally, physically & sexually, but it would not be neutural to use them in a piece about the definition of schooling. While these may be 'true' are they are simply not neutral in terms of defining what a school is and what it does.

The section is on child abuse in combination with homeschooling, this is often used as critical argument against homeschooling. Adding to that it has been noted in the Germany's Federal High Court 1. By a New Jersey Superior Court judge 2. And even more recently it was part of the case that resulted in a ban on homeschooling in California 3. Adding to that there is Marcia Herman-Giddens, a Doctor of Public Health who was in a team that reviewed a number of cases stating: "there is a subgroup of people that are keeping them in isolation, keeping them from public view because the children often do have visible injuries" 4.

There should be no doubt that this is used as a critical argument against homeschooling. As such it is presented in the article. There is another section in the article called "supportive research". I believe that to be not entirely neutral, but it's not a real issue as long as there is a place for critical arguments.

I have put back the reference improve template to the top, as there was no reason to 1 remove it. And moved the POV dispute template to the top, as there is a number of sections with such disputes (see other talk sections). Species8473 (talk) 23:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Notable homeschooled individuals

I have requested a copy of the now deleted article, List of homeschooled individuals, and it can be viewed at User:Diligent Terrier/List of homeschooled individuals. We need to work on merging information from that page into this article. - DiligentTerrier (and friends) 01:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm opposing that for the following reasons:

• It was removed by an administrator because it had verifiabilty and other wikipedia policy issues.
• Even the list we currently have in the article has verifiabilty issues. Such as Charles Even Hughes, who is stated to have been enrolled in a private school on wikipedia. While for Dakota Fanning, Brett Dennen, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer there is no proper source, and I haven't found one either. Four other entries have no proper source either.
• Before adding more entries, I believe we should discuss topics such as the criteria, and how big it should be.

Greetings, Species8473 (talk) 05:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Problems with "Criticism of supportive achievement studies"

I propose that this section be removed for the following reasons: 1) There are no sources cited for this section. 2) The section appears to consist of opinion rather than fact. 3) The portion dealing with demographics would be better placed in a section on demographics. 4) The section is vague. 5) The article is about homeschooling, not statistics. Dumb All Over (talk) 00:51, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

There is one citation in that section, which should be kept and moved somewhere else. Otherwise I'd say, go ahead and remove it. While you're at it, you might try figuring out what to do with the next section about financial obligations - it isn't criticism at all, just interesting demographics. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. The reference was moved to the section on "Test results", and I added another supporting reference to the 2007 Fraser Institute Paper. There is a lot of information in that Fraser Institute paper btw - I highly recommend that editors read it as it would help improve this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dumb All Over (talk • contribs) 02:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Please don't remove sections that are in the article for a long time in a period of hours again.

First of all the "criticism of supportive achievement studies", even though this section needs citations, if you have read something about homeschooling you know that things said are true. Look through the NCLBA article, and you will read that the tests are indeed mandatory for public schools, while "homeschooled students are not subject to this requirement." And if you would have read the studies involved you would know they indeed have a voluntary participation. etc.

The financial obligations section has also been in the article for a long time, and has been worked on by a number of editors that apparently do see a place for it in this article. The basic point here is that with homeschooling one parent for the average one or two children has to stay at home. While in schools there are groups of children.Species8473 (talk) 06:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I have read through the Fraser Institute study, and it acknowledges both that "There are good reasons to be suspicious about easy comparison between the test scores of home schooled and other students, since it is difficult to ensure comparable testing conditions of levels of student participation, among other reasons." and the "lost income when a parent leaves the labour force to home school" as an argument. Species8473 (talk) 08:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)