Talk:Hoa people

Majority of boat people Hoa?

I raised my eyebrows when I read that ~85% of the Vietnamese boat people actually were ethnic Chinese. I need FULL refernce on that claim, as I believe the number to be ridiculously high. My parents were boat people themselves and they believe the number to be far far off the mark. Most boat people were ethnic Vietnamese. I believe most Vietnamese that actually were boat people can confirm that fact. I am removing the statement until I see a full reference, (a longer text with the numbers in context, posted on this Talk page.) I've also got to say that I'm sorry the Vietnamese government treated the Chinese in Vietnam badly, but there is no need to play down the suffering experienced by ethnic Vietnamese. The claim that Chinese make up the majority of the boat people from Vietnam is nothing short of historical revisionism.

It is also pointed out below, that the article contains mainly citations from a Chinese Communist paper in 1982, right after the Sino-Viet war, and is highly propagandist. The number of Hoa people that left the country could hardly be millions. The total number of ethnic Vietnamese that left Vietnam after the war was around two million...Tridungvo 22:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The Boat People were ethnically Vietnamese. They are classified as Hoa because they may have a grandfather or great-grandfather who was Chinese, even although all the other grandparents or great-grandparents were Vietnamese.

Neutrality

The articles contains mainly citations from a Chinese paper published in 1982, right after the Sino-Vietnam War. It is highly propagandist. Add up the number of how many Hoa people left the country, you end up in millions... LOL

Occupations

Warning! The above paragraph is very misleading. It's a bad translation of the original vietnamese paragraph. The original vietnamese paragraph is below:

"Để đối phó lại phong trào cách mạng ở miền Nam Việt Nam trong thế trận phát triển không ngừng, đế quốc Mỹ, một mặt dùng quân sự đánh phá nông thôn, khủng bố mạnh ở đô thị, tiến hành "chiến tranh đặc biệt"; mặt khác, để có chỗ dựa về chính trị, đế quốc Mỹ nuôi dưỡng và phát triển tầng lớp tư sản mại bản ở Sài Gòn - Chợ Lớn. Họ lũng đoạn nền kinh tế miền Nam, chiếm 80% cơ sở công nghiệp gia công chế biến, 90% đại lý buôn bán và 50% bán lẻ, 80% ngân hàng tín dụng, 42 công ty có số vốn trên một tỷ đồng (trước đây ở miền Nam chỉ có 60 công ty có số vốn lớn hàng tỷ đồng). Thông qua hoạt động kinh tế, giai cấp tư sản mại bản đã nắm được trong tay mình hàng vạn công nhân và có ảnh hưởng lớn đến các tầng lớp lao động khác ở thành phố Sài Gòn - Chợ Lớn."

From the book called "Chung Một Bóng Cờ" published in 1993 in Ho chi Minh city. Visit the link below see the full page which contains the paragraph (in Vietnamese): http://www.hochiminhcity.gov.vn/home/left/gioi_thieu/lich_su_van_hoa/lich_su/tp_chung_nhan_cua_dong_chay_ls/khang_chien_chong_my/nguoihoa.htm?left_menu=1 (added by an unsigned user)

Actually, no, the text was taken word for word from the Library of Congress country studies, published in 1987: [1] --Yuje 00:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Where did they get the statistics from?

They got the statistics from the communists. Americans are ignorant about Vietnam, and its history and culture. That's why they lost the war. All the information about Vietnam they have is from the books the vietnamese communists or other Vietnamese wrote.

I'm Vietnamese myself, and I lived in Saigon at the time. Let me tell you, Hoa people were often bullied by Vietnamese at the time. Only rich Hoa people could get away with the bullying by briding South Vietnamese Government officials for protection.

Most Hoa people of the South live in District 5 (Chinatown) of Ho Chi Minh/Saigon city but still they only accounted/account for 50% of the population of the district. Hoa people there are known as Tau Cholon. Cholon means "Big Market", and Tau means "Chinese". Tau Cholon implies the Hoa people living in District 5 where Big Market is.

South Vietnam is big. It's hundreds of times larger than District 5 of Ho Chi Minh/Saigon city. Before 1975, Hoa people only accounted for 1% of the whole population of South Vietnam. So how could 1% of the whole population possibly control 80% of South Vietnam's foods...? It just doesn't make sense at all. You can say that they controlled 80% of their Chinatown's economy but not the entire South Vietnam's economy. The ones that really controlled a big percentage of South Vietnam's economy were the Vietnamese goverment officials.

P.S: Note that the statistics was released by the Viet Cong. If they hadn't released it there's no way LOC could have gotten it and misinterpreted it.

Saigon-Cholon was the former name for Saigon City/Ho Cho Minh City. LOC thought that Saigon-Cholon was the district that most ethnic Chinese live in so they misinterpreted the whole thing.

---

To be fair Nguoi Tau literally means "Boat People" but shouldn't Viet Nam Hoa kieu be a translation as well? ~ Epod.

--- Um, a technical thing= Chinese in South Vn did not make up "1 percent" of the South Vietnamese population before 75 but about 5 percent. More than 60 percent of the currently 85 million people in Vietnam right now were born after 75.

Hoa and Jing (Gin) people

• Hoa = Chinese Vietnamese (Chinese heritage, Vietnamese citizen)

• Jing (Gin) people = Vietnamese Chinese (Vietnamese heritage, Chinese citizen)

However the Hoa's are genetically more Gin than Han Chinese. The Vietnamese classify them as Chinese simply because they claim at some point in their genetic history, there was a Chinese ancestor. The Hoa look like other Vietnamese, and not at all like a Han Chinese.

The Jing's in China are also genetically Vietnamese. They have not intermarried Hans, and their physical appearance is still Vietnamese.

Hoa anymore???

I noted that the term Hoa applies to ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam. Yes, many ethnic Chinese do not have direct origins with china and have roots directly from Vietnam instead. Once they are out of Vietnam, I dont think they are ethnic Chinese of Vietnam anymore. As one can see, a person's race cannot be changed. Once the Hoa emigrated to other countries, they are considered ethnically Chinese (American), with origins from Vietnam. At most this makes them ethnically Chinese (American) and by national origin Vietnamese (American). Thus once these chinese emigrates to other countries they are no longer Hoa, unless the term Hoa is a totally separate ethnic group from the Chinese/Vietnamese.

Thus I made the necessary amendments. If you have any objections, feel free to raise them here, but I would appreciate at least a notification from my talk page. Thanks.Mr Tan 15:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Christy Chung

I note that Chung is the daughter of a Chinese father and a Vietnamese mother; however, she was born in Canada and has never lived in Vietnam, or held Vietnamese citizenship. The term Hoa refers to ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, or at least Chinese born in Vietnam. She is a mix of Chinese and Vietnamese, and that her Chinese father has nothing to do with Vietnam. Thus is she a Hoa at all? She is a Chinese Canadian and Vietnamese Canadian, that's all. You might want to query me if you have objections. Mr Tan (talk) 15:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

** THIS ARTICLE HAS BECOME A RACIST JOKE **

This article has become little more than a reinforcement of popular myths and is highly patronising to many people around the globe as a result. In particular, this article:

1.Falsely implies that most Cantonese and Teo Chew peoples are of Han ethnicity. In fact nothing else can be further from the truth. In fact, their ancestors were the victims of one of the worst genocides in world history at the hands of various Chinese armies. Once subjugated, the existences of distinct Cantonese and Teo Chew ethnic identities (as opposed to 'regional' identities) were 'conveniently' forgotten by most people in the world (and tragically to this day). Thus from this point of view, the label of Han ethnicity was a brutal imposition upon the Cantonese and Teo Chew peoples against the wills of the said local peoples.

2.Fails to clearly state that the Cantonese and Vietnamese peoples are very similar, both culturally and genetically and that most people of Cantonese or Teo Chew ancestry who come from Vietnam are also of Vietnamese ancestry (due to very high rates of inter-cultural marriage).

3.Fails to make any real distinctions between the concepts of ancestry and ethnicity whatsoever. There is more to ethnicity than simply being descended from a particular ancestor. Naturally, ethnic identities evolve and may even change over time (but not counting genocides). One could even argue that the concept of ancestry is nothing more than a political and social misconstruct since a recent scientific study has proven beyond reasonable doubt that all modern humans were descended from Africans.

4.Contains contradictory information and inappropriate references. Some of the information also appears seriously out of date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.147.120 (talk) 23:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The above points, in particular, MUST be taken seriously. Someone who is an expert on the subject matter of this article must edit this article IMMEDIATELY to remove the blatant biases in the article (including population figures).

I also note that parts of this article could intensify unnecessary divisions between 'native' Vietnamese people and Vietnamese people who happen to have Cantonese or Teo Chew ancestry.

If this article is not fixed by 21 March 2008, 00:00 UTC, this article will be **NOMINATED FOR DELETION**.

Note: I would have attempted to correct some of the biases in the article, but owing to the fact that most of the required references are very difficult to obtain (and generally not found on the internet), I have called for an expert to fix the article instead.

UPDATE: Procedures for proposing that this article be deleted are now underway.

Urgent issue that must be addressed now

There is something in this article and this talk page itself that suggests that the article is in danger of ending up in a state of disrepair. Of great concern is the fact that the article promotes an 'us and them' attitude between ethnic Vietnamese and other Viet peoples. The article fails to explain that the term 'Hoa' is really just a political label that was used to marginalise certain people. It also fails to explain that there is no real difference between the so-called 'Hoa' and the 'native' Vietnamese.

Also of concern is the propaganda throughout the article. There is an urgent need to check each reference in the article to see if they are suitable. We also need to delete any sentences that cannot be substantiated.

The first step that needs to be taken is to remove all references to 'Overseas Chinese' and 'Chinese' except where they are explicitly referring to the labels that various Vietnamese governments or the local populace have imposed (in which case the wording is altered appropriately). By doing this, a very serious point-of-view problem will be resolved and will also help towards ridding this article of politically motivated propaganda.

Also, note that the 'native' Vietnamese are probably really a collection of ethnic groups (one being the Kinh people) rather than a single monolithic entity. This point may need to be addressed too.

Therefore, I have commenced cleaning up the article as a matter of urgency. If you have any comments or suggestions, I will be more than happy to see it. 122.105.145.169 (talk) 11:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Some of the propaganda and other questionable material have now been removed or reworded. In particular, most of the references to 'Chinese' have been eliminated for neutrality's sake and I believe that most, if not all, of the communist propaganda made up by the CCP have been deleted. However, further improvements are required (including the addition of relevant, balanced information that is not already in the article) if the NPOV and factual accuracy tag is to be removed. 122.105.145.169 (talk) 12:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Do we really need a section on 'Hoa' concentrations around the world? As far as I am aware, these 'communities' exist in the same locations as 'other' overseas Vietnamese communities. In fact the descendants of 'Hoa' people who have migrated from Vietnam to other countries are rarely distinguishable (probably less than 1 in 100 cases) from descendants of 'other' Vietnamese-born people on the basis of culture, appearance, social class or language. 122.105.146.66 (talk) 05:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I will also move that this article be no longer part of Wikipedia: WikiProject China. It is widely accepted amongst Mainland Chinese, Hong Kongers and even Taiwanese that the Hoa people are not of Chinese ethnicity at all; these people consider the Hoa a subset of the Vietnamese ethnicity. I believe that the said WikiProject designation just highlights a case of double standards: on the one hand, the populaces of China, Hong Kong and Taiwan regard the Hoa as ethnically Vietnamese and not Chinese; but on the other hand, some propagandists from the same countries continually exploit (for their own interests) the prolonged discrimination against Hoa people at the hands of some Vietnamese, convinced that they can label people whatever they want. 122.105.146.66 (talk) 05:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I have just requested that this article be no longer part of Wikipedia: WikiProject China at the appropriate WikiProject talk page. If approval is sought, I will remove that deplorable template that has promoted nothing but an 'us and them' attitude. 122.105.146.66 (talk) 06:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)