Talk:Livonian Order

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Requested move

Livonian Order → Teutonic Order in Livonia. — The current name of this article is not clear and definetly should be changed. This military organization was not a separate military order, as Teutonic Order or Order of Malta. It was just a part (although largely autonomous part) of Teutonic Order. Moreover, the term Livonian Order is often used for the Livonian Brothers of the Sword [1]. The so-called list of masters of the Livonian Order is actually the list of Teutonic masters of Livonia, see German article. — Albert Krantz (talk) 17:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC).[reply]

I'm more inclined toward Livonian branch of the Teutonic Knights, personally. Olessi (talk) 02:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with Olessi. One real historian lectured me against using term "Livonian Order" and said it be "Livonian branch of the Teutonic Knights." Renata (talk) 05:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the correct full name for this stuf in German is Landmeisterschaft des Deutschen Ordens in Livland. My English is rather poor to translate. — Jón Þórunn (talk) 07:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Support any move to reduce confusion with the Livonian Brothers of the Sword which has made the interwikis a mess (but now hopefully fixed). I would also go as far as to make Livonian Order a disambiguation page since some languages refer to the Livonian Brothers of the Sword as the Livonian Order (e.g., lv:Livonijas ordenis, lt:Livonijos ordinas) and there is the reasonable possibility of confusion in English. — AjaxSmack 01:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those two article in lv and lt do not differentiate between the two. English used to also not differentiate until just few months ago. Renata (talk) 01:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely why a disambiguation page is in order. — AjaxSmack 03:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I totally object making Livonian Order into dab page. It is a very popular link, which 90% of the time refers to "Livonian branch of the Teutonic Knights." Since there are only two pages to disambiguate a simple hatnote should do the trick. Renata (talk) 04:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Normally I would agree with the hatnote solution but where would "Livonian Order" redirect? The are a number examples of it being used as shorthand for Livonian Brothers of the Sword. In addition to the Encarta article noted in the nomination[2], a brief web search turns up "The knights in 1202 had founded the ORDER OF THE BRETHREN OF THE SWORD, commonly referred to as the Livonian Order."[3] and "the Order of the Brothers of the Sword (Schwertbrüderorden), also known as the Knights of the Sword, or the Livonian Order."[4] I'm not sure where the 90% figure comes from or what "it is a very popular link" means but isn't this sufficient evidence to question the redirect target? If not, I will defer to those more familiar with the topic but I hope a move from the current title can proceed regardless of this discussion. — AjaxSmack 15:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Livonian Order has 648 refs @ google books and 268 @ google scholar Please provide evidence in the form of published sources that renaming the article is justified in any way. Also Livonian Order as an autonomous branch of Teutonic order was only called so after 1237, also they used different insignia than Livonian Brothers of the Sword, or another way to put it, Encarta should get their facts straight and not confuse the 2, even though one grew out of another--Termer (talk) 19:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose the move because in Wikipedia we should prefer "what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity," and not what is academically correct. Neither "Teutonic Order in Livonia" nor "Livonian branch of the Teutonic Knights" are the most common names for the organization in question. A redirect from those titles to "Livonian Order" will suffice. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]