Re-instating this article

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I'm re-instating this article, since the main Dorje Shugden article is 92KB and rambling. I've tried to transfer most of the information related to the controversy into this new article, making only minimal editorial changes. If you see something inappropriate that I've left out or changed, please just add this in.Peaceful5 (talk) 07:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

kt66 aka Tenzin Paljor

Just so you know, kt66 has a personal agenda to undermine the New Kadampa tradition and is an ardent supporter of the Dalai Lama's ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden. As Tenzin Paljor, he has been on chat groups and blogs all over the internet for years trying to persuade people to abandon the New Kadampa tradition and Dorje Shugden. Please therefore be on the look out for potential POV bias and disinformation in his edits of this article or any article to do with Dorje Shugden, Geshe Kelsang, or the New Kadampa Tradition. (Wisdomsword (talk) 18:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Two things. First of all, kt66 is retired. Secondly, I worked alongside kt66 on WP for a couple of years, and although he was sometimes furious at himself for having spent so much of his life promoting NKT, when he came here, he learned to balance his opinions carefully with fact. It was mainly due to his efforts that the NKT, DS, KG articles remained reasonably balanced. Of course, now that GKG has told his students to stay away from discussion groups, it is unlikely that his faithful followers would continue to edit and discuss on WP - but it appears this isn't the case. Once more, the said articles are blatantly biased in NKT's favour - so much so that they garner attention as being not much more than promo. material. If you wish to present the NKT, DS, GKG etc in a manner that meets the criteria of an encyclopedia, it is essential that you reflect the facts of these things in an impartial manner. Unfortunately, it appears that there are no students of GKG, of the DSS, or any other supporter who is yet able to do that. It is fascinating. If we read the texts of the Kadampa tradition (I recommend ISBN 0-86171-440-7 as a seminal work which accurately represents the entire lojong foundation, or the great translations of the LRCM for Je Rinpoche's Lam Rim.) we are told to reveal our own faults first, and to hide our qualities. This behaviour is NOT something readers find when coming across the NKT sponsored pages of WP. Instead, they are faced with no mention of the controversies, politics or sexual escapades that the organisation is stained with.

e.g GKG expelling students who complained about Kelsang Lodrö having sex with Kelsang Thogme, or GKG's email to Steven Wass indicates the degree of truth of my words:

Steven Wass,
I have received your email message. You have destroyed the NKTs reputation and the power of all NKT Resident Teachers. Through your actions so many ordained Teachers have disrobed following your view which is opposite to Buddhist view – you tried to spread a sexual lineage which you yourself created. Even in society a Teacher cannot have sex with students. After you left many people confessed to me that you had had sex with them. You had sex with so many students and through your deceptive actions one nun tried to commit suicide because of your sexual behaviour towards her.
Because the NKTs reputation and power of the Resident Teachers has been destroyed by your activities now the future development of the NKT will be difficult both materially and spiritually. However, I myself and all my students are working hard to recover the damage you made. We will never allow your sexual lineage to spread in this world.
I have no connection with you.
Geshe Kelsang Gyatso

(20040302 (talk) 13:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Initiating a temporary subpage for a draft re-write

A re-write of this article has been proposed with the goal of making this article more intelligible, especially for those unfamiliar with the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. I'm proposing a major re-write of this article and am initiating a subpage in the talk namespace. Contributions are welcome. Visit the /proposed re-write page. Peaceful5 (talk) 07:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article's title could be changed to "Dorje Shugden discrimination" instead of "Dorje Shugden controversy." Emptymountains (talk) 02:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Peaceful5, this article is approaching un-intelligible and seems quite partisan in places. I'd start the article off with the timeline or the background (or a very short summary) and move "Today's Controversy" further down. I disagree that the title should be changed as "discrimination" is a partisan word. Iainspeed (talk) 10:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Discrimination" might be inappropriate for this particular article. However, if there is factual evidence of discrimination -- and the 1998 Swiss TV documentary is certainly a strong argument that there is (to name but one source) -- then the word "discrimination" is not partisan but objective fact. And if it is objective fact, then this definitely deserves to be brought to light. Does it not? No matter which view of Dorje Shugden you support, no matter which view of the Dalai Lama and Geshe Kelsang you support, if people are being actively discriminated against because of their religious beliefs, this is something that needs attention -- not something that needs to be buried inside a long article on a controversy which most of the world won't read. --Iheartmanjushri (talk) 03:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proof of religious persecution

I would like to suggest adding content from this article which shows many of the things that have been going on in this controversy: http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5170/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.243.60.154 (talk) 15:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This section desperately needs some writing which is neither partisan nor assumes familiarity with the intricacies of Buddhist practice. This issue is in the media, and it would be helpful to have a brief and straightforward account of what this is about, which is as yet very murky Crocodilian (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is definitely too long and needs a short summary to begin with. As it is now, the only people who could dare to read it all the way through would be those with some personal investment in the issue. A short summary at the beginning, representing both views, would be enough for curious passerbys, and those interested in learning more could read the rest. But, I also think that the article is quite thorough and gives an excellent overview of both sides of the controversy, as well as what is happening currently. I think most of the current content should stay for those interested in the full details. --Iheartmanjushri (talk) 03:44, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]