Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Acharya S (2nd nomination)

Acharya S

Non notable with no reliable sources. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. —Ism schism (talk) 14:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Not notable. No reliable independent data concerning her life. Majority of article is about her books and theories. Jchurchward (talk) 22:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Please note this user has written negative articles on Acharya S, tried to include them in her article, then threatened to write more negative "reviews" of her work if he didn't get his way here. ^^James^^ (talk) 06:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Although 'this user' researched a thoughtful and provocative article on the relationship of Acharya S to a relative, that should not preclude the inclusion of my comments in this forum. The article was only considered negative by her associates and they have responded with Ad Hominem attacks. The substance of the material was never questioned or disputed.Jchurchward (talk) 12:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete This article has been, for over 3 years, on wikipedia with no reliable sources. The subject is non notable. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 02:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The author is notable in her field. This is a basic article - who she is and what she does. As it should be. Aren't her books reliable enough sources when describing what she writes about?? ^^James^^ (talk) 04:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Many people write books. For notability, more is required than having a book or two. There must be reliable sources that show the subject of the article to be notable. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 04:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Please see WP:N#Articles_not_satisfying_the_notability_guidelines: "If it is likely that independent sources could be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate unless active effort has been made to find these sources. For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort." So this might be a bit premature. Also, I note that you have littered the article with inappropriate fact tags. ^^James^^ (talk) 05:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply Please see Three year history of no reliable sources. Also, you have been editing this article for three years and have added no reliable sources. So, as you stated above, "If it is likely that independent sources could be found for a topic..." Well, you have had three years. Do you have anything else to add? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 05:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody has questioned her notability until now. It's been taken for granted. The article is a bio (see WP:BLP) on a notable person in a niche field. The articles content is very basic, so doesn't currently need outside sources for corroboration. Why you've added all those fact tags is beyond me. You seem to have some sort of misunderstanding. Anyone interested can review the "fact tagging" conversation here.^^James^^ (talk) 06:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is the second time that the article has been marked for deletion which indicates that questions about her notability have been raised previously.Jchurchward (talk) 12:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, and it was determined she was notable. That was 2 and a half years ago. Shall I add some notable reviews of her books? Do you remember why they were removed? Personally I'd rather keep the article as basic as possible. ^^James^^ (talk) 18:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This article has been edited for over 3 years by ^^James^^ and other editors concerned with the article. In this time, no reliable sources have been added to the article. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. While not a credible scholar in any relevant field, she IS notable in that her work is popular in conspiracy theorist circles. Her work almost single-handedly keeps alive the "Jesus Myther Theory" and "astro-theology" theories of Christian origins amongst the popular crowd. While she has not sold as many books as Dan Brown or had a career as long as Jordan Maxwell's, she's at least as notable for her being one of the prime sources for "Zeitgeist: the Movie." She's a minor internet celebrity, but a fixture of the popular speculation community. Her work was notable enough for Robert M. Price to review it (negatively, but still). Not every article on an author needs to have a complete bio. She is deliberately secretive about her life details, but a few do exist, including her photograph, real name, a few family details, education, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.52.143.152 (talk) 11:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC) — 68.52.143.152 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 12:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This person, Jack Churchward has been harassing Acharya S libeling, smearing and defaming her and her work Since November 2007. Jack should be completely banned from posting anything on or about Acharya S here at Wiki. His radio show and his articles and other videos and comments should be reviewed by an attorney. Jack Churchward has been asked to stop but he refuses to do so as demonstrated here, Jack continues to essentially stalk Acharya S.

Read the discussion at the "James Churchward" wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Churchward

I request that her name be kept to Acharya S or D.M. Murdock only. She has already experience a child abduction by 3 strangers due to getting a hold of her *PRIVATE* information. Jack Churchward cares nothing about Acharya's safety or privacy or her family - I see he's made some threat here about writing about her private life?

I notice a mention about a relationship implied above which is totally bogus. It should be removed as it is just more lies for Jack Churchward and his friends to post on their smear campaign against Acharya S who has never done a single thing to Jack or his friends.

I remember when Acharya was being harassed here by another stalker named ZAROVE, who was eventually banned because of threats and possible libel. It may be that Wiki's lawyers will need to be contacted again concerning this latest libel by Churchward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.16.230.16 (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

— User:84.16.230.16 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at Ism schism (talk) Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 23:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC) (UTC).[reply]

Comment Once upon a time, I wrote a commentary podcast about my great-grandfather & the use of his works in Acharya S's work, "The Christ Conspiracy". After some vengeful individuals had the video removed from YouTube, I wrote another commentary podcast. This is the extent of my involvement in the so-called "smearing and defaming of her and her work." I did not initiate the Article for Deletion and a rationale person would not believe that I should be excluded from voicing my opinion. After all, don't her ardent supporters jump in? There should be some civility in these discussions, otherwise, I should just use a sock-puppet next time. Why should I have to defend myself against all the lies spread about me when I just offered an opinion? Jchurchward (talk) 23:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This is a debate on the (lack of) notability of this subject and whether or not there are reliable sources. Whoever ^^James^^ is or Jchurchward may be is as relevant as Anons with no edit history and no references and lots of opinions . As is, this article is about a non notable and should be deleted. After 3 years of discussions, debates, and edits - this article still fails notability and has no reliable sources. Thanks. Ism schism (talk)
Comment I, somehow stumbled on this a couple of days ago thinking it was about an Indian Guru. Then saw the whole trail from the past, the YahooGroup and all. I believe many more IPs and other new users will come here and vote to keep this article. And this message is for them. Please do not try to create a smear campaign against your fellow editors. Rather, you can try and improve the referencing of the article and help in keeping it. Thanks. Shovon (talk) 13:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. No secondary reliable sources given to establish notability.--Boffob (talk) 03:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding notability, how popular are her books relative to others in her field? What about the many radio interviews she's done over the years? Robert M. Price wrote a review of her book The Christ Conspiracy, and has also reviewed Suns of God for the "The Journal of Higher Criticism". They have appeared together in a joint radio interview. Richard Carrier wrote an article concerning the author. Earl Doherty has reviewed The Christ Conspiracy. What about her involvement with the movie Zeitgeist? She is very popular with the counter culture crowd. These facts are or have been in the article at some point, but its been stripped down to the basics. Ism schism suggests otherwise, but he is mistaken.^^James^^ (talk) 10:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you could cite reliable third party sources instead of Acharya S' own website (which is not at all neutral in matters of establishing notability for a living person) or commercial websites like Amazon, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Find neutral third party sources and cite them, and the article can stay. It's as simple as that.--Boffob (talk) 11:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I echo Boffob comments above concerning notability and reliable sources - "Find neutral third party sources and cite them." Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 12:57, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Boffob I'm not sure I understand - neutral with respect to what? The people in her niche field have reviewed her work - is that not neutral enough? What about her appearances on all those radio stations? Are they not neutral? Are you asking me to individually corroborate every listing? The only time I used her website above was to show what radio shows she has been on and to show a review reprinted from "The Journal of Higher Criticism". Robert M. Prices first review appeared in Skeptic Magazine. And Amazon does give one an idea of how popular her books are. Is that not a factor to note when establishing notability? While not universally respected, she is well known in the Jesus Myth circle, in the counter culture crowd and on the internet. As it stands I see little difference (in terms of "neutral third party sources") between Early Doherty's page, Robert M. Price's page, Acharya S's page, and probably a ton of other bio pages. ^^James^^ (talk) 17:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Well James, please do perform these searches to establish the popularity of Acharya S, Amazon.com and Amazon.com2. It clearly seems that she is non-notable although you would like us to believe otherwise. Shovon (talk) 18:14, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The person's notability has not been established using "neutral third party sources". As the present case stands, she seems to be a fringe conspiracy theorist/author. Shovon (talk) 13:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]