Talk:High school

Nearly a B Victuallers 20:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Info needed on the end of vocational high schools in the US

I was recently told that the US used to have vocational high schools, but they were ended because some people thought they were racist. However the elimination of vocational high schools has left poor people without the best means to rise out of poverty so they could build a good life and have their kids go to college. Did the US used to have public vocational schools? If anyone knows anything about this topic, please add it to the article. Really it could even get a wikipedia entry all on its own, as there's a WHOLE lot to know about the topic.

Old comments and discussion

Should we really include the "It is widely beleived..." paragraph? It is purely speculative and not at all factual. --Frecklefoot —The preceding comment was added 6:46, 15 October 2002

Moved from article:

"(It may be parallel to British 'College'? (as opposed to 'University')?)

It is widely believed by persons age 14-34 that high school is the worst part of one's life, and widely believed by persons age 35 and over that high school is the best part of one's life."

Vicki Rosenzweig —The preceding comment was added 01:38, 20 October 2002

Singapore

The term "high school" isn't used in Singapore except for a small number of schools and those are private schools

United Kingdom

Likewise in the UK. I can't speak for Wales, N. Ireland or Scotland, but it is not a phrase I often hear in England, where 'Secondary School' seems the most prevelant.Markb 09:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

That is a strange statement considering that the school I went to had the suffix High Scool in its name. Now if you are considering the general class of post Primary education then you may be correct.

In Scotland secondary education is almost always referred to as secondary school. Many schools are however called "... High School" but you would never speak about it as high school.

In the UK, schools with "high school" in their name are not uncommon, but (in England at least) I have never heard the term used to describe a level of education. Certainly the DfES do not use the term anywhere. In fact it reading this article it looks like the UK content was written by someone who has never been through education in the UK or worked in it. Unless someone can convince me that I'm thinking of some other UK, I'm going to move all the UK related content in this page to Secondary education in the UK and replace it with "the term high school is rarely used in the UK". TomViza 23:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

High school is used throughout Manchester 80.2.18.139 (talk) 18:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Alphabetization

Does wikipedia use alphabetization as a standard for structuring the arrangement of names, such as places in these article headlines?Weaponofmassinstruction 23:55, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree, these links seem ludicrous, surely if you wanted information regarding that country you would search for it. The links are irrelivent and not required in the article, they also make it look somewhat of a mess, and to my knowledge this is not common practice on Wikipedia. I will remove them. -Hamdev Guru 20:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

U.S. vs. State law

The section on United States high schools contained references to 'U.S. Law', especially regarding compulsory attendance laws. I've edited this section to clarify that all attendance laws originate with the states, not the federal government. Each state sets its own ages for compulsory attendance ages and maximum ages, although there is remarkable consistency. This seems like a minor change, but most of the other countries in this article have national education systems, and the United States doesn't. I feel this is an important distinction. --BucInExile--66.194.217.220 00:38, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Secondary school (in US at least)?

How can High School be secondary school if it is the third part of school, e.g. Elementary, Middle School, High School. --169.139.185.1 11:39, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

It is most likely due to the fact that it is called that in britain, and america could have copied it, but I do not know.--Sstabeler 10:20, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Traditionally, grades 1-8 (ages 6-14) were considered "primary school." Middle school is a 20c innovation. Grades 9-12 (ages 14-18) were considered "secondary school." Postgraduate education (university, community college, specialized art schools, etc.) are considered "tertiary" education. Drfryer 04:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

use of 'Year'

I do not understand the constant references to 'year 10', 'year 12', nor 'grade'. The age of the children my be more relevant along with number of preceeding years of formal education? Markb 11:37, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

in the UK, year refers to the number of years in school, starting in september, and ending sometime in july since the pupil started key stage one, and so is a reflection of how much schooling a person has had so far, regardless of age, while I cannot speak for the american system, the grades in america are roughly equivalent to the years in britain.--Sstabeler 10:13, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, in the UK, as a general guide, by knowing the Year someone is in adding 5 to that number will produce the age of that person. Eg, a Year 10 pupil will be 15 by the end of the academic year. This is because Key Stage 1, and compulsory education, starts when the child is 5, Year 1, and therfore aged 6 at the end of that academica year. - Hamdev Guru 20:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Just think of it like Kindergarten is Year One, 1st grade is Year Two, 2nd grade is Year Three... and 12th Grade is Year Thirteen. That's the easiest way to convert UK Years to USA grades. Stephe1987 00:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

In Australia (compulsory) schooling starts with Kindergarten, then goes through 1st class - 6th class (sometimes referred to as 1st grade etc) - then in High School becomes Year 7 to Year 12. Just to confuse everything!Garrie 03:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

"Typical high school students"?

Those are not typical American high school students, at least in my (fairly recent) experience. That's a pretty offensive picture, don't you think? Moreover, and perhaps more to the point, it has nothing whatsoever to do with high school.

i agree, and think it was most likely vandalism, the user that did this also made a similarly explicit edit to the cheerleading aritcle. possibly best course of action would be to remove from article and then list on IFD? i do not think it belongs in any articles.--Sstabeler 10:18, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

American high schools paragraph

I deleted the paragraph that started "Although not considered fact...", based on the premise theories should cite who is saying them. The paragraph was pretty general, saying things that go without saying, or are too general to apply to the whole country, or apply anywhere. Some sort of revised re-inclusion would be fine. Also, talking of college standards going up, may well be true, but that's an assertion of fact that must be supported (and defined), since some perceive the opposite. It's also hard to discuss such a thing, without talking of specific time periods for comparisons (are they higher than they were 5 years ago or 20 years ago). --rob 09:49, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The bit about when kids graduate. "...the year of their 18th birthday..." That is a little long. It's easier to say "Students usually graduate at age 17 or 18." or something similar. Oh, and those cut off dates don't apply to any of the schools I went to. --Bee 04:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to include...

...sections about high school courses, life in high school, history of high schools, etc? I know it would be difficult as high school just doesn't mean the same thing in different countries. But, this article seems rather stubby and incomplete at this moment... Orage 21:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

American High School Photo

The photo of the high school in class should be replaced. 1) From the layout of the classroom, it looks like a college classroom. 2) Have several "high school students" age 30+.

Must classrooms look the same all the time? We need to change in times. Teens grow up faster than before, so they may look older than their age. --Terence Ong 10:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

LOL. That's funny. "Teenagers" with male pattern baldness.  :-p There seem to be familiar faces in the back row. VT classroom?

Ages of American High School Graduation

I would like to point out that the ages of high school graduation that are listed on here are incorrect for at least two states, which are two of the ones with the largest populations:

• In California, students born between January 1 and November 30 graduate in the year of their 18th birthday. Those born in December graduate in the year of their 19th Birthday. For example, the kids who will graduate from high school this year, unless they started school a year late or failed a grade, were born between December 1, 1987 and November 30, 1988.
  • Children born December 1-3 also graduate in the year of their 18th birthday, they begin Kindergarten at age 4.5 and graduate almost 6 months before they turn 18!
  • California has considered several times changing the date for the Kindergarten age cutoff to September 1 but the measure is repeatedly defeated.
• In New York, all students graduate in the year of their 18th birthday. So everyone who was born in 1988 is graduating this year (unless they failed or their parents made them wait a year to start school).
• It is also common for kids with birthdays between December and February to start school a year early if they can read. I am from California and my cousin who was born in December 1994 is in 6th grade. I also have some friends who are first-year college students who were born in February 1988. And Dakota Fanning was born in February 1994 and she's in 7th grade this year.
  • Dakota Fanning probaby has had private tutors for much of her professional life and skipped a grade due to the personal academic attention.
• It is equally as common for parents of kids with birthdays in October or later to have their kids wait a year to start school. In my sisters' Girl Scout troop, there are two girls, both in 3rd grade: one was born October 11, 1996 and the other on the same day in 1997. Stephe1987 01:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Technically, the New York part is a little flawed. While it is true now that all students graduate in the year of their 18th birthday, that has only recently changed. It used to be the same as California; there are two kids at our local school who were born December 1, 1987 that are graduating this year, yet they have never failed nor did their parents wait a year.

• In Colorado although there is a state cutoff date, individual school districts have the option for earlier cutoff dates. In some rural school districts in northeastern Colorado the cutoff date is June 1st.

Random unsigned comments

is it me or the "high school" seems to be a painful and terrible experience for almost everyone basically everywhere? in my country everybody hates it and eventually drops it. i saw an american saying that "almost every kid in USA wants to pull a columbine" and so on. is it possible to talk about how bad high school can be and give some motives? i don't know. i really think it sucks because you're been shaped for the little box called "college" where you become one more mr. something until the day you die. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.10.55.48 (talk • contribs) 12:03, March 25, 2006 (UTC)

WHY is there no info on the HISTORY (like when the 1st one opened up in the U.S.) of High School!!?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.74.230.249 (talk • contribs) 02:00, April 12, 2006 (UTC)

Canada

The first line of the Canada section reads: "Secondary schooling in Canada differs depending on the province in which one resides. Normally it follows the American pattern"

Are we expected to know what the american pattern is? Ironcorona 04:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that the dropout rate was only about 10%, with the highest dropout rate being 13% in Manitoba; a total fallacy, for example Ontario has a dropout rate of nearly 40%. The Canadian Education System is rapidly falling into ruin, and I think this article should reflect that.

I don't know what you're talking about. Dropout rates have decreased since 1991 rapidly. Totally fallacy? You're soure please? I have mine right here. Ontario has the third lowest dropout rate of 9.1% (as you said, Manitoba has the highest of 13%). The dropout rate of the past 2 years is 10.1% which is considerbly low compared to other countries out there. As of 2004-2005 (lastest records avalible, dropout rates were only 9.8%. Statistics Canada

CuffX 05:08, 17 Nov 2006 (UTC)

High school students image

The picture is terrible, very few high schools in the United States look like that. Illuminus

I agree. The picture has adults mixed in with students and doesn't appear to be in an average classroom. Also, in my school and those I've visited, desks are usually bigger than the ones pictured. If anyone has a better picture that could be used, I think it would be a good improvement. Brian Night 23:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

While these students are in a school building, it is misleading to have this on the page here, as many readers will come away with the impression that these students are actually "going to school" that is they are in a classroom learning the normal curriculum. This was, instead, an exceptional event not representative of what a "school" is like in general, and in an auditorium, not representative of a school classroom. This image should be omitted from this article. (This comment was added before the above comments were noticed and moved to this section.) -- Centrx 01:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. That picture looks nothing like a real high school. Plus they're all wearing weird glasses. Ilikefood 20:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I went to a private school and it did, in fact, look like this.

Rzrscm 12:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree. It appears to be a screen cap from TV show Fast Times. I'm removing it. Wl219 04:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

History of high schools in america and the world

I suggest an article on when did it start in this country, 4 years, back then in 19th century there was something like grade school 8 years, but next 4 years was college. And similar conept was elsewhere.

This article is missing the critical history of transition from pre-WW I "academies" which trained teens only for college = college prep schools; to new schools which offered vocational subjects during and after WWI which were then called "high schools." While they did not give up their original goal of educating teens to pass rigid entrance exams for college which took only the brightest and best educated, but added the additional role of training typists, stenos, bookkeepers, wood workers, welders, factory workers, etc. Students that definitely would not go on to college = the majority of their new enrollment. This again transitioned in the 1950s on to schools which supposedly attempted to again move all students into college, the latter supposedly a new goal for "every man." However, the old standards had been lost. Colleges no longer required the classical student to be educated in Greek (both dialects) and Latin, the old classics, etc.

So the standards for secondary schools slumped after WWI and never did resume their former high standards. The history ought to be recorded somewhere. From this article, a reader would suppose that high schools were invented out of whole cloth! Student7 (talk) 04:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Grade schools and high schools years (duration)

Well guys, we need to find out, when number of years changed in usa and worldwide, i do know community colleges came in 1901, but was grade school always 8 or more, we are trying to get this straight and it is of importance.

Title of page

Is this article supposed to be about high schools or secondary education in general? There is already an article on secondary education and it seems that much of what is included here should perhaps go there instead. The words high school are only used in certain countries to denote the final stage of compulsory education so perhaps it might be best to confine this article to those countries where this terminology is used. At the moment this article seems to be developing into a review of secondary education worldwide as though the words high school and secondary school are synonymous which they are not. At the moment secondary school redirects to high school when in fact it should be the other way round. A high school is a type of secondary school. They are not one and the same thing. Dahliarose 09:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem of the title of this article has now been resolved. I've now completed the removal of all the UK and other material on secondary education to the secondary education page. It made no sense whatsoever to have these sections grouped under a page entitled high school when the term is not used in these countries to describe secondary education. Dahliarose 14:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Divert

I've now discovered that Secondary School was being diverted to High School which made no sense whatsoever. This presumably explains why this article has developed in the way it has. As I've explained above the two terms are not interchangeable (or at least they might be in North America but not elsewhere). I've now removed the divert and provided a brief explanation of the word secondary school. I will move all the content relating to secondary schools (eg. the whole of the United Kingdom] from this current high school page to the secondary school page unless anyone has any strong objections. This high school page should surely only provide an explanation of what a high school is focusing only on those countries which use the words high school. The other alternative is to retitle this page "Secondary school" and divert "High school" to "Secondary School" but I think sufficient countries use the words high school for it to warrant a page in its own right. Dahliarose 11:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You have got it wrong about UK. High school is the normal use, not secondary. Please don't remove it. --Majorly 12:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whereabouts in the UK do you live? I live in England and have two children at secondary school here. I've never ever come across anyone calling a secondary school a high school in England. Dahliarose 12:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Northwest. --Majorly 12:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whereabouts in the Northwest do you live? I can't think of a single school in the northwest of England which calls itself a high school. Can you give some examples?

Oftsted categorises schools as secondary schools not high schools:

[1]

As does the DFES:

[2]

I would be interested to see if you can provide a single reference to show that high school is the normal way of describing an English secondary school. Dahliarose 12:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at List of schools in the North West of England for a huge selection. I counted two that call themselves "secondary". --Majorly 16:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

But those are the names of the schools not a way of describing the category. All the official bodies, eg OFSTED and the DFES, refer to the places where pupils go for the final stage of their compulsory education as secondary schools. Some secondary schools have the words grammar in their name, some have the word comprehensive in their name and some have the word high in their name. Some don't have any of these words. However they are all categorised as secondary schools. A lot of schools in the north-west do seem to call themselves high schools but if you look at most of the other regions that is not necessarily the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_in_England

The terminology must follow that used by the official bodies not the regional use in one small part of the country. If OFSTED and the DFES change their categories and use high school instead of secondary school then you would have a point. Look at the comments in the section above on the United Kingdom and you will see that other people have made the same points as me. Dahliarose 17:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I answered your comment though: you said "I can't think of a single school in the northwest of England which calls itself a high school" and there are plenty. I totally agree that the category is secondary, but the names are more often "high". I'm happy enough with how it is in the article, so I'll leave it at that. --Majorly 21:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad we reached a compromise. To be honest being a southerner I don't know the names of many schools in the north of England. Manchester Grammar School was the only one which immediately sprang to mind and I can't imagine that they would be very pleased at being classified as a high school! As far as I can establish the usage of "high school" seems to differ and I think the Americans seem to use the phrase as a generic word to describe all their senior schools (which is why this article has gone off on a tangent) whereas in this country only some secondary schools (and especially as I now know those in the north-west!) actually call themselves high schools. We live and learn! Dahliarose 23:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in many places, the term 'High School' has a specific meaning in the UK, albeit differing depending on authority. In places such as Leicestershire it refers to a type of middle school catering for pupils aged 10 to 14 (i.e. Year 6 - 9, parts of KS2 and KS3). Probably not a significant enough number to mention in the article, but noteworthy all the same. Tafkam 21:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hochschule, hogeschool, etc

The point of the paragraph In the non-English speaking world there exist the words, Hochschule, hogeschool, hõjskola, højskole... is that 'High School' doesn't have to mean 'High School' other languages. Hoch, hoge, höj, høj and høg all translate to 'high' and Schule, skola, skole is 'school'. But Hochschule is German for Vocational university while gymnasium is German for High School.

I consider it relevant to know that a word for word translation in this case isn't right. A list of what high schools are called around the world in the 4000+ languages there exist is in my view not relevant.Aastrup 10:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

This article should confine itself to the definition and usage of the phrase "high school". It is relevant to include words in other languages which appear to translate as high school. A gymnasium is a specific type of secondary school in Germany but it cannot be translated into English as high school. As with the French word lycee, there is not really an English language equivalent. A gymnasium is I believe more like an English grammar school. Dahliarose 12:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oberschule etc would seem to be institutions of secondary education. This is true for all the examples that I could find, e.g. Education in Germany. It was possible to believe that these institutions were of tertiary education in the old version. Aastrup 14:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Generally this section is so full of mistakes (højskole is not considered tertiary education in Denmark, but rather a voluntary vocational programme hardly giving any academic qualifications; Realschule in Germany is not a vocational alternative to the Germain Gymnasium, but grades 5-10 of primary education - approximately equivalent of the UK secondary school, the last half of folkeskolen in Denmark, and approximately equivalent to the Swedish Högstadiet) that I will suggest it to be deleted completely. It does not make sense to try to translate the American term 'high-school' into other languages literally or equivalently - rather it would make sense to translate it into grades or children's age-ranges and find the terms equivalent for these ages in other languages. Bfjohannsen 22:30, 2 June 2007

I've moved most of the definitions to the secondary school page as most of the terms were direct translations of secondary school rather than high school and were completely irrelevant here. Gymnasium for instance cannot be translated as high school - if anything the closest English language equivalent is grammar school. If any of the remaining definitions are incorrect please feel free to amend or delete as appropriate. Dahliarose 23:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Simplify opening paragraph?

There seems to be a fair amount of contention about the opening gambit to this article. I wonder if it's worth really simplifying the opener to a broad strokes statement of the term's use, and moving the specifics which currently appear there (e.g. UK references, non-English, etc.) into their own sub-sections further down (with perhaps UK stuff as a country entry, and an entry below all the nations about the language issue? That would lead the opening paragraph to give a very broad, simple understanding for those who want a brief intro , without losing the other content. Any thoughts? Tafkam 18:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The opening paragraph could well be tidied up. However, what we don't want to end up with is a whole section devoted to secondary education in the UK as this section has now been moved to the main article secondary education. The UK usage needs to be explained somewhere to avoid any confusion. There was an assumption in earlier versions of the article that the term "high school" in the American sense was in global usage which is of course not the case. Dahliarose 16:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I was thinking that a UK section would be a brief: we don't really use the term, where we do it's synonomous with secondary education in most case, see 'secondary education' or similar. Tafkam 20:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you meant to say that the term is not synonymous with secondary education in the UK! Dahliarose 20:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahem! Yes... nothing like missing out the key word! Tafkam 21:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

US content moved from intro

A long section has been added to the intro which as far as I can establish relates only to the USA with information about Junior High Schools, etc. I've moved this content to the US section but some further tidying up is probably still required. There seems to be a certain amount of duplication at present but I don't know enough about the subject to make too many changes Dahliarose 22:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization

There is inconsistent capitalization of high school, High school, and High School. Which is correct?

It should be lower case, ie, high school, unless it is part of a school name. I've done a quick find and replace to fix it. Dahliarose 14:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

US high schools

In the recent edits a large section of interesting and useful content about the different types of American high schools was deleted. This whole section is a complete muddle. I've had a go at revamping it and have restored the deleted content which, as a non-American, I found interesting and relevant. I suggest that such major changes should be discussed on the talk page first. Dahliarose 12:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Alternative schools are for BAD students MUST have a source. There is an alternative school article. People can click on the link for more information. It sounds so repetitive to put information about vocational schools, alternative schools when they already have an article for them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MSerje (talk • contribs) 18:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There seem to be two different articles one at Alternative high school and another at Alternative school. I don't know anything about these schools in the US and can't comment on the accuracy or otherwise of either article. As a non-American I think it is useful to have short statements about the various types of US high schools. By all means change the section on alternative high schools and add appropriate references but I see no reason to delete large amounts of legitimate referenced text. Dahliarose 19:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

So much information on U.S. high school but so little on all the other countries? 67.34.102.46 23:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)