Talk:Celibacy

The article homosexual celibacy redirects to this page, but this page lacks any mention of celibacy due to reasons involving sexual or gender identity, nor anything of that nature. While it probably can fall into reasons for celibacy, it could potentially be an additional section; I have therefore added an request for expansion. (And please don't suggest that it should go into the homosexuality article instead - that thing is huge already!) - Heartofgoldfish 15:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Not my area, but I'll consider it.--T. Anthony 15:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

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Italic textI'd like to add something about Catholic priests, in terms of both celibacy and chastity. In particular, let's address the issue of homosexual priests. Since Catholicism does not deem homosexality itself sinful, a homosexual ought to be able to take the same vow of chastity (or celibacy?) as any other priest. Is this correct? Ed Poor

Yes -Ben

Not exactly. The recent Vatican document argues that celibacy in the sense of priestly celibacy is not a gift to someone who is homosexual and uninterested in marriage.

By the way, the old articles on celibacy and chastity were identical with the last paragraph of the Holy Orders article.

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This looks like as good a place as any to put this:

The Catholic and Orthodox churches holds themselves to Canon 6 of the Council of Trullo in 692, which reads as follows:

"Since it is declared in the apostolic canons that of those who are advanced to the clergy unmarried, only lectors and cantors are able to marry; we also, maintaining this, determine that henceforth it is in nowise lawful for any subdeacon, deacon or presbyter after his ordination to contract matrimony but if he shall have dared to do so, let him be deposed. And if any of those who enter the clergy, wishes to be joined to a wife in lawful marriage before he is ordained subdeacon, deacon, or presbyter, let it be done."

-Ben Brumfield

Two points: 1. it's the Council IN Trullo rather than OF. The Trullo was a part of the imperial palace at Constantinople, so it is like referring to the Capitol in our nation's Capital, or like the legislative affairs column in a state-capital newspaper being called "Under the Dome." Indeed, I think 'Trullo' may be a version of 'vault' or 'dome'. 2. The Latin Church did not accept the disciplinary canons of the Council in Trullo. Western rules on celibacy do not base themselves on that council (which also prohibited representations of Christ as a Lamb [Lamb of God] - one of the first signs of the coming Iconoclastic controversy). The rules for the non-Latin rites of the Catholic Church are actually separate (with their own ocde of canon law). MichaelTinkler

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"The old meaning of this term was "to have sexual intercourse only with one's wife".

Anybody got a source on the "the original meaning of celibacy" quote? The author seems to be describing what's sometimes referred to as "continence". -Ben Brumfield

Exactly. Leaving aside the fact that celibacy is a noun and "to have sexual intercourse only with one's wife" is a verb, I've checked OED and there's no evidence for any such meaning. The original sense was "unmarried" and the current one is "not having sex". Deleted that sentence. Flapdragon 6 July 2005 22:30 (UTC)

List of famous celibates?

I wonder if this article could benefit from a "list of famous celibate people", like the "list of famous..." in other articles such as the one about homosexuality. A rather famous celibate is Paul Erdös, and Friedrich Nietzsche was also one by some accounts.

• Friedrich Nietzsche died of Syphilis, now: where could he have contracted that as a celibatarian? Kraxler 16:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea.

I will add a list of notable celibates to the article. One I can think of is Anne Widdecombe. Walton monarchist89 17:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

• I could have sworn I saw something on TV that said Kyle Brady was celibate, but considering his article says he is married and has a son, that doesn't appear to be correct. Recury 16:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for resonding for my call to assistance, AdelaMae and Hideouslywrinkled. Unfortunately, there were some mistakes. The Reformers did not give alternative interpretations of verses cited in favor of celibacy. hey cited verses they thought were against it, and their reasoning belongs in the Humor section (read the verses they cited). If it was people outside the Church thinking married priesthood was a solution, it would not even be mentioned (Catholics do not tell Muslims what colors they should paint their mosques to attract converts). Unfortunately, this opinion is held by many high-rank officials in the Church (but note: the insincere ones). And, as I said previously, "The sectors of the Church where vocations are the highest are those where the Church's teachings are followed, and the sectors where these teachings are not followed have the lowest." The data DOES exist, but I need to find it.JBogdan 15:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Main reason for celibacy?

Am I missing a vital piece of context for the "Reasons for celibacy" section of this article? It seems to me that the most obvious reason for celibacy, and one I would like to add to the list, is:

• An inability to obtain a willing sexual partner, due to social awkwardness or anxiety, physical or mental handicap, or lack of physical attractiveness and/or financial resources.

Blackworm 01:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Consider it done. Chris Henniker 16:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.228.106 (talk) 12:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

merge this with 'clerical celibacy'?

I think this page should be merged with the entry about 'clerical celibacy'. While the content is partly the same, the entry for 'clerical celibacy' is more detailed, better structured and less biased. I stumbled upon the 'celibacy' entry when I wanted to find out something about the history of celibacy in the catholic church, but all I found was a biased argument why celibacy is a good thing and why all who say otherwise are 'insincere', 'uninformed' or 'humourous' (luckily, the latter two terms have been edited out). Even the external links don't provide information, but only propaganda for clerical celibacy. As you see, I think the 'clerical celibacy' entry is far superiour and this one should link to the other.

I agree. An article on "celibacy" that doesn't include clerics is fairly meaningless. Why would anyone care? Merge. A link to "clerical celibacy" is okay in the short run, but merge and delete this article long term. -student- 11/5/06

Other Traditions following Celebacy

I have added some reference to celebacy being practiced in both Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Certainly it is not only practiced within the Christian world - maybe people could expand these areas in order to make the article more 'global' in it's focus. How is it seen in different countries and cultures around the world? 82.163.63.228 15:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Infobox for individual birth control method articles

Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 12:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Why Musical Linguist is downgrading the Wikipedia by deleting contributions?

I recently added a section about History of Celibacy. My additions showed when and who started the tradition of celibacy in Catholic Church.

Why Musical Linguist deleted them?

In my opinion he is downgrading Wikipedia by selectively editing chosen articles to enforce his agenda. The discussion about his other contribution clearly show that.

Please, let the moderator show his clear view and ban Musical Linguist from constant misediting wikipedia pages.

Thank you. User:83.19.104.34

Why did she do it? - Because your edits were downgrading WP by adding false information.

• Clerics (or laypeople) were never allowed by canon law to have concubines. Concubines are "unlawful" by definition.
• Clerics were allowed to keep wives married before their ordination - in the Latin Rite up to the 11th century - in the Eastern Rites until today.
• Clerics were never allowed to marry, only allowed to retain their wives, albeit under certain restrictions.
• The ordinance of Pelagius I, if he issued such a thing, has nothing to do with marriages. It merely protects Church property and reiterates something that should be obvious to any moral person, Christian or not.
• There is no doubt that many clerics had, in spite of canon law and morality, concubines and hence there are also reiterations of the ban, e.g. by Pope Benedict VIII.
• The property question certainly has a part in the 11th century implementation of general celibacy, but you are overdoing it. Spiritual reasons were much more prevalent, as many believers demanded to have celibate priests.

Good day, Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 09:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Religious/clerical celibacy

I would suggest the whole section on religious celibacy is too focused on the Catholic church. Of course it is a major topic of debate and interest within that Church, but surely the subject of the Catholic view of celibacy should be a subset (albeit a substantial one) of a general heading on celibacy due to religious belief, since practitioners of other variants of Christendom (and of other faiths) may also choose celibacy because of their beliefs. 82.153.129.223 23:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a seperate article on clerical celibacy that I think it would be better for this article to refer users to who are interested in that aspect of celibacy. The whole article needs a re0write and I've started to do a bit of a literature search (this not being my field, it takes days at the library which are few and far between :-). From what I've seen so far, we should have 4 sections on the "whys": religious belief and practice, physical/biological causes; social reasons (including involuntary celibacy); and cultural forces. There has been a request to cover homosexual celibacy (and the article homosexual celibacy points to this article), but from my search so far, homosexual celibacy doesn't seem to be rooted in anything different from hetrosexual celibacy. So I was thinking of incorporating homosexual perspectives throughout the article rather than having a seperate section. --SiobhanHansa 00:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is not that large. How much of it do you want to devote to homosexual celibacy? Is it really that important of a subset? (The figures I've seen indicate it might be overrepresented, but it'd still only be around 15%)--T. Anthony 04:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't thinking it would be a huge bit, more that it would make it clear that (for the most part) reasons for celibacy, and approaches for handling it, were not related to sexual orientation. I'm still reading up on this, so I'm not clear how I'd do it. Feel free to edit yourself :-) --SiobhanHansa 13:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Lopsided views

This article is very lopsided; more than half of it touches on the Christian aspect of celibacy. The practical and secular forms of celibacy (such as the involuntary celibacy experienced by professed nerds) are mentioned in the opening, but largely ignored by the rest of the article. Even the section which deals with reasons for celibacy makes a highly biased statement on celibacy by quoting the Apostle Paul verbatim at the end. I'm not sure how we could rebalance the article, because celibacy is usually associated with religion in the first place, but a good start might be to focus more on celibacy in non-Christian religions and the secular celibate. Johnleemk | Talk 17:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Nerdish celibacy" is not historically significant or studied enough to matter that much. Although there has been activists of a secular nature who decided to be celibate in order to devote more time to their respective movements. That was more true in the nineteenth century, and earlier, as sex then was more likely to lead to children. I believe several of the early feminists were celibate. And it might be too focused on Christians specifically Catholics. There have been Protestant celibates and among the Religious Society of Friends I think "spinster celibates" were not too unusual. I remember reading something on a Quaker site about them considering celibacy to be one among many sexual options a person may choose. There could maybe be a bit more on people on the autistic spectrum, as well as other conditions, as there are conditions/disabilities that are disproportionately celibate. I believe some autists find sex unpleasant or even disorienting because of neurological factors. Also I think a bit more on celibacy in Dharmic religions could be helpful.--T. Anthony 09:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the Shakers (distinct from the Quakers) should also be mentioned. They have practically died out as a sect because of celibacy and a failure to win converts. Ranthlee 23:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article needs a lot of cleanup. I made a start, but a lot more needs to be done. Here's what I see:

• References: Still need 'em, especially in the light of creeping OR and POV. Perhaps some of the "External links" could be converted to references.
• Roman Catholic clerical celibacy: A lot of this text should be removed, or moved to other articles. (Clerical celibacy, Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church), Roman Catholic sex abuse cases, etc.)
• Secular celibacy: A lot more information about secular aspects of celibacy would help. Are there organizations or notable manifestos promoting secular celibacy? What about the historical view of the risks of celibacy (e.g green sickness)?

--Shunpiker 17:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

New Page from this one or references for this page?

Just an idea, but can the medical opinions from this site be made into a new page for "Health Benefits of Celibacy"? www.semenloss.com There are many citations from doctors. Unfornuately some of the sources are only from the work of Dr. Bernard. But many of the sources are from the original author's directly. As108 02:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture Suggestion

This article lacks pictures. How about someone introducing a picture of a couple not engaging in sexual behavior before marriage. Perhaps a shot of people walking down a street, eating some ice-cream or having sexual intercourse. Oops - not that one :-) - Bennyboyz3000 07:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Islam section

I have added the Islam section, with myself being a muslim and already knowing alot about celibacy in Islam.

I have researched alot about it before putting the info in, and have tried to make it as neutral as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.25.71 (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Why Were Two Celibate People Removed?

I added two very well known celibates, Jessica Simpson (took a vow of celibacy at 12 and remain a virgin until her marriage to Nick Lashey) and Britney Spears (famous for her celibacy as a teen) and they were removed without reason. Apparently these were not celibates as they were in their young 20s. I don't believe to be any sort of valid reason for a vow of celibacy to be valid, especially considering Jessica and Britney took a "vow of Celibacy" which is what the article is all about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbx118 (talk • contribs) 15:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that these are cases covered by celibacy as it is discussed in this article. In the lede we define a vow of celibacy as a promise not to enter into marriage or engage in sexual intercourse (my emphasis). These two cases are more virginity pledges than vows of celibacy. -- SiobhanHansa 20:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Celibacy is defined as referring to be being either unmarried or to sexual abstinence., the cases mentioned cover both in this instance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbx118 (talk • contribs) 15:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You're reading that as an either one or the other case, but by that reasoning anyone who has sex but isn't married is celibate, which isn't what this article intends. I also think the two cases are much clearer examples of virginity pledges than celibacy. The list is, to be fair, a huge mess anyway, and it's not as though I think these are the only two poor inclusions. -- SiobhanHansa 14:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Siobhan - I can surely confirm that no, I'm not reading that as an either one or the other case, I'm using the exact definition given. Jessica Simpson in her case took a vow of celibacy, it doesn't get any clearer or more defined than that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.81.125 (talk) 22:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

So you're using the idea that every person who is unmarried and is not currently engaging in sex is celibate and from that any star who has ever said that they are (or were once) unmarried and not engaging in sex is a notable celibate?

BTW the source you provided for Simpson does not mention a vow of celibacy - in fact it doesn't include the word celibacy or celibate, nor does it say she in anyway said she would refrain from marrying. It says she took a vow of chastity and that she envisioned wedlock as a fairy tale where she would remain a virgin for her husband which indicates that her vow of chastity did not include a conscious decision to refrain from marriage. I'm just pointing out that these are nuanced terms and you seem to be treating virginity, chastity and celibacy as interchangeable. -- SiobhanHansa 03:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I am removing again the names of actress Jessica Simpson and Britney Spears a very-well know whore. Get married as a virgin do not implies celibacy. My grandmother and my mother and millions of peoples engaged in their weddings in virgin state, due this was be a cultural ethics. Don't be stupid your moron. Rodrigo Zauli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.62.161.228 (talk) 14:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

To the Wikipedia Team: Can we discard the above immature comments? I've re-applied the names Britney Spears and Jessica Simpson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.81.125 (talk) 22:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with discarding the stupid/moron comment, though I think the rest of what he said was fine. How about having 2 separate sublists? One list could be for people who are permanently celibate, and the other list could be for people who are only waiting for marriage. Both categories are worth mentioning, but I think they should be separate. There's a big difference between someone who never has sex and someone who only has sex while married. --cowgod14 26 June 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 16:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

POV Tag

I'm doing POV tag cleanup. Whenever an POV tag is placed, it is necessary to also post a message in the discussion section stating clearly why it is thought the article does not comply with POV guidelines, and suggestions for how to improve it. This permits discussion and consensus among editors. This is a drive-by tag, which is discouraged in WP, and it shall be removed. Future tags should have discussion posted as to why the tag was placed, and how the topic might be improved. Better yet, edit the topic yourself with the improvements. This statement is not a judgement of content, it is only a cleanup of frivolously and/or arbitrarily placed tags. No discussion, no tag.Jjdon (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have edited one of the reasons for Celibacy

The article read like this "An inability to find a sexual partner that one finds acceptable or tolerable" with a link to involuntary Celibacy. Involuntary Celibacy is if a person is unable to find a sexual partner. If one can find a sexual partner but refuse their Celibacy is not Involuntary it is due to their choice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris smith jones (talk • contribs) 16:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

A reason for celibacy?

I was reading this article and I noticed that one possible reason for celibacy is missing. It is the reason I have chosen to become a celibate: I have a mental disorder that many people are trying to cure (I won't mention which one because it's not relevant in this context), and I have become a celibate so that I cannot have children and therefore cannot contribute to the continuation of this mental disorder's gene.

What I'm saying is, do enough people become celibates for the reason that they cannot reproduce and therefore not give their unborn children undesirable genetic qualities (like defects, mental disorders, ect.)? If so, would this be worth putting on this article? Pippin the Mercury (talk) 00:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be a good thing to add, but you've got to find an article or something that mentions this so that you have a citation. Cowgod14 (talk) 21:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)