Talk:Niçard dialect

The "comté de Nice" was very different from the french department of "les Alpes Maritimes". It was much smaller, at least the french part of it. Nice is limited on the West by a river called the Var, and on the other side of the river is a town called Saint Laurent du Var. as a typical example, during the 19th century, the "comté de nice" wasn't french, but Saint Laurent du Var was, as were Antibes, Cannes, and so on... Palleas 17:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Occitan?

Can it honestly be said that Niçard is a dialect of Occitan and not Ligurian? I would be inclined to think it can be categorized either way- as part of a continuum- but closer to the latter. Any info out there? Dionix (talk) 16:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

This chapter from a book on languages in Contemporary Europe (2002) suggests Nissart is Ligurian (Northern Italian), not Occitan or French. Dionix (talk) 16:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

No scholar consider Niçard as Ligurian; all scholars consider it as Occitan. Please see bibliography, especially Bec (1970-71), Dalbera (1984) and Gourdon (1997).--Nil Blau (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Sue Wright is a scholar and her opinion on the referenced "Beyond boundaries" book must be taken in consideration. Please remember that in Wikipedia we have to consider all the scholars' opinions.--Merighi (talk) 22:33, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Dionix (talk) 22:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Sue Wright is not a specialist of Romance linguistics and what she says about the linguistic adscription of Niçard (Occitan or Italian) is totally undocumented: all specialists of Romance linguistics agree about the fact that Niçard is a part of Occitan: see the given references (especially Dalbera). — — — Merighi's last modifications are wrong about Cerquiglini's book: Cerquiglini has never said that Niçard would have been a former Ligurian variety. the Royasque dialect (Brigasco, Tendasque...) is structurally Ligurian, yes of course, but this is not the case of Niçard: please note that Royasque is not Niçard.--Nil Blau (talk) 22:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I must bow to your knowledge on this subject matter. What I'm learning is just recent surfing. Nonetheless, when you look at language as a continuum, there is no doubt that Niçard is in many ways a transition. It seems entirely plausible that in the past it was closer to Ligurian. Dionix (talk) 22:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

You say "It seems", but no linguist has never demonstrated such a thesis. What we need in Wikipedia are academic references and documented sources, Wikipedia official policy doesn't accept personal research nor undocumented statements. Please see Wikipedia:No original research--Nil Blau (talk) 23:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait a moment, please! Sue Wright is a scholar and here there are two other references added to bibliography. DALBERA Jean-Philippe (2003) “Les îlots liguriens de France” & CERQUIGLINI Bernard (2003) (dir.) Les langues de France, Paris: Presses Universitaires de France / Ministère de la Culture et de la Communication-DGLFLF: 125-136] Why Nil Blau considers ONLY the scholars he wants? Sorry, this is not a wikipedian NPOV.--Merighi (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I first mentioned Dalbera/Cerquiglini in the bibliography section, a few days ago, before you. I read this book and you probably didn't. Dalbera says clearly that Royasque is Ligurian and that Niçard is Occitan: both dialects are separated by a strong limit of converging isoglosses. We can keep Sue Wright's statement of course, and I just restored it, but the fact is that Wright doesnt't give any source about Niçard linguistic adscription.--Nil Blau (talk) 23:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

No, you referred only to one book of Dalbera. I have added the other one on the "Ligurian isles in France", that evidently you don't like because of your nationalistic points of view. Furthermore, the "strong limit of converging isoglosses" is a famous creation of De Gaulle's historians when he wanted to take even Ventimiglia for France in 1945/6.--Merighi (talk) 23:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Please, read what Dalbera really says. If you want, I can give you his quotes, I have the very book here at home. Accusations of "nationalism" won't help us to progress.--Nil Blau (talk) 23:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I have read it , and I suggest you to read even Cerquilini. Hope now we can agree. --Merighi (talk) 23:33, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess you didn't because Dalbera's article about Ligurian in France (Royasque) is a part of the book directed by Cerquiglini, Les langues de France. This is all in the same book.--Nil Blau (talk) 23:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Cerquiglini has not written only that book, as you probably know. Anyway, I don't want to have problems with 3RR and other edit wars: hope we can agree friendly.--Merighi (talk) 23:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Merighi, look: you wrote that, according to Cerquiglini, Royasque is "a remnant of a bigger medioeval "ligurian" area that included Nice and most of the coastal County of Nice": your statement is simply false: Dalbera (and Cerquiglini) don't say that. Please give the quotation, unless I will have to remove your false statement.--Nil Blau (talk) 23:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Please read Histoire de la langue française 1945-2000. Co-edited with Gérald Antoine. Paris: CNRS Editions, 2000. For the exact page, I have to find it when I 'll have more time. Hope you have the book.--Merighi (talk) 00:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I have added even Vignoli Giulio Gli Italiani Dimenticati. Minoranze Italiane In Europa. At least one author from the italian side, in the bibliography full of french scholars.....--Merighi (talk) 03:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)