Talk:Caroline, No

Fair use rationale for Image:Beach Boys - Caroline No.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Carolineno sheet.jpg

Image:Carolineno sheet.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"The opening line... indicates that the song's protagonist is dissatisfied with his partner's new haircut and in general with changes in her personality." has got to be one of the worst ways to summarise this song and one of the best ways to kill all the meaning this song has that I have ever seen. Paul McCartney said he cried when he listened to it, yet the best that Wikipedia can come up with is "dissatisfied with his partner's new haircut". There has got to be a template for this... Warning! Some people will think you are trying to be serious. Anyway, I'd change it, but that would destroy what is, in its own twisted and mixed up way, a truly quintessential Wikipedia line. JS (talk) 12:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Ha! You're right on. I've seen similar atrocities in articles related to Pink Floyd's The Wall. Anyway, it's been changed, so I'm glad you left the comment for our amusement. --63.25.118.201 (talk) 17:06, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The key.

According to the sheet music book (which I added to the list of references), the key (after being sped up) is D-flat, not F#/G-flat as the article previously stated. If you think about it, D-flat's the right key, even though the song does not start with a D-flat chord. Here are the chords:

VERSE: ||: Ab6 | Gb6/Db | Ab6 | Gb6/Db | Ab6 | Abm7 Db9sus4 | Db6 | Gbmaj9 :||

I don't see how you could argue this is G flat when the Ab major is so prominent.

BRIDGE: Ebm7 Ab7 | Dbmaj9 | Cm7(b5) Gbdim7 | Bbm | A6 ||

It's the bridge which really settles it: The first two chords, a classic ii - V resolving to a Db chord (indeed, a major ninth), and the next two chords resolving to the relative minor, Bbm. And that A(natural) with the sixth is equivalent to the minor IV of Db (F#m/Gbm), which is always a telltale sign.

Hope that heads off any arguments.
--63.25.26.25 (talk) 20:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, incidentally, the sheet music book gives the chords as "Fm7/Ab" and "Ebm7/Db". I don't understand why one would ever use "Fm7/Ab" when an Ab6 is the exact same chord, and a simpler name. Also, the Db9sus4 was named "Abm7/Db" (this kind of chord comes up a LOT in the Pet Sounds material). If I'm doing something wrong by renaming these, I'd be interested to know.

--63.25.26.25 (talk) 04:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I still would argue for Gb. What you say about the first chords in the bridge also applies to the last chords in the verse: Abm7 - Db9sus4 - Db6 - Gbmaj9... also an example of ii-V-I. And to me, it's the only time that the chords truly sound resolved in the whole song. I would also argue that the chords in the sheet music book aren't entirely accurate. The Db9sus4 sounds more like a plain old Db7, and the next chord, Db6, should be Gbmaj7/Db, I think. Try playing through with those chords and see which sounds more like the recording. (Also, in the bridge, the Gbdim chord should have an F in the bass, making it F7(b9), a fairly common jazz chord. And the last chord in the bridge is Eb7(b5)/A, not a plain A6 chord.) (My point is, the sheet music isn't completely accurate.)

This is what Philip Lambert has to say in his book Inside The Music Of Brian Wilson, which I think that you would really enjoy.:

The back and forth between bass notes Ab and Db makes most sense in the keys of Db or Gb, but the chords above offer little in the way of confirmation. When we do finally get a sense of total resolution, at the end of the phrase "How could you lose that happy glow," we want to hear it in Gb, but the bass note stays on the the fifth of the chord, in second inversion, on the word "glow," making us wait one more bar for a stronger resolution to a Gb bass note supporting the word "no' in "Oh, Caroline, no."... Later, in the bridge, the progression comes to a rest briefly on the other key implied earlier, Db, on the words "go and cry," and subsequently on still another key, down a minor third to Bbm, for the words "sweet thing die." After an artful turnaround on "Oh, Caroline, why," we're then back to the verse and the familiar tonal indecision.

There comes a point where it becomes almost impossible to say what key some of Brian Wilson's from this time period are in... Don't Talk, Surf's Up, Let's Go Away For Awhile never really settle on any one key. I Just Wasn't Made For These Times seems to be pretty clearly in Bb to me, but only hits a root postition Bb chord twice, neither time all that convincingly.

My point is that it can be somewhat dangerous to assign keys to these songs, but if one must, I think that Gb should be the choice for Caroline, No. MookieZ (talk) 14:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

You definitely raise some interesting points. However, I just don't see how you can ignore the fact that an A-flat major, with its C natural, is both the first, and the most prominent chord. If you're willing to overlook that and put the song in G flat, why not instead call the G-flats accidentals and put it in A flat? Then, at least the key signature will match the first chord! (I've seen inferior sheet music companies do exactly this -- the first chord dictates the key signature, regardless of what happens next.) That makes about as much sense.

Regarding your chord corrections, they certaintly would work, but . . . Well, have you tried playing along with the recording? I just went over and over it, especially the bridge. That Gbdim7 definitely is Gb in the bass. I myself originally thought it was F7, before I got the sheet music (Cm7 to F7 being a standard change), but I've just verified it by playing along. I try to avoid this sort of reasoning, but I think Brian would have been attracted to the change of flattening just one note (Bb to A) in the right-hand chord. Regarding the Db9sus4 (aka Abm7/Db), yes, I hear it that way, but it makes sense that a Db7 would sound okay to you. The next chord still sounds like Db6 to me. You're just hearing a Gb somewhere where I don't. Finally . . . "Eb7(b5)/A"? Why even call it that? Is that not identical to an A7(b5)? But my only real concern is your apparently hearing a G natural instead of F#/Gb in there. This is simply incorrect. Try playing along, ideally with a keyboard you know is in tune, but voice it with that G natural on top -- A, C#, D#, G -- it sticks out most hideously! You'll switch it to F# soon enough, I predict. Thanks for informing me of the D#/Eb in there, though. I guess you'd call it an F#m6/A, or would A6(b5) be better? (So long as we don't start calling it "B9/A" . . . .)

I recognize that the verse does lead to a feeling of resolution on G flat, but I have to consider the Ab major, plus the basic bass roots of Ab, Db, and Gb adding up to a V-I-IV in D flat. If anything, he's changing keys back and forth in mid-verse, but, when notated in D flat, that still only amounts to one measure with accidentals in it.

Then there's the question of the bridge, again. Thanks for the Lambert recommendation, and I probably will check it out, but statements like his reference to B-flat minor as "still another key" will exasperate me; I hope there's not too much of that sort of thing. Point being, the bridge is in "five flats" through and through. Even the F#m6/A (whatever you call it) is basically the minor IV, begging for resolution to Db (that never comes, fittingly enough.)

While I still don't agree, I appreciate the reasoning you've put forth. And I agree that it can be a fool's game trying to limit Brian's compositions to any one key.

Oh, and regarding "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times", well, that's just Brian deliberately trying to confound the listener in general, and his traditionalist songwriter father specifically. The chorus does resolve to a B-flat, more or less, but with a C in the bass that quickly descends Bb, Ab, G. The sheet music did notate it in two flats, but of course, accidentals abound. They put the first half of "Let's Go Away For Awhile" in F, which is almost arbitrary. But I think "Don't Talk" is clearly in E-flat minor/G-flat Major.

--63.25.234.43 (talk) 23:14, 9 July 2008 (UTC)