Talk:General Assembly and Church of the First Born

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This information is incorrect. The Church of the Firstborn is not Pentacostal. They do belive in the origina sin. Some prohibit doctors, most do not and they existed long before 1907. (There is a record of the Church of the Firstborn recorded in the rare books library of the University of Texas call number 826 G389P Volumes 1 & 2 published in 1702). (The Church in Delta, Colorado has existed since 1904; Elwood Indiana since 1900; Indianapolis, Indiana since 1896; Hobart, Oklahoma since 1902; Homestead, Oklahoma since 1895; Olympia, Washington since 1898). There are currently atleast 121 assemblies in the United States (2006 Directory of Churches General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn). 01:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The information in the article is from the reference cited. It's possible the article and the group you are thinking of are different, since the source is quite clear it is a Pentecostal church and that it began in 1907. You should start a different article for the churches you are researching. Snocrates 01:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is possible, but much more likely that the reference source is inaccurate. There are several similarities between the church described and the church of the firstborn which i am refering including the washing of feet, laying on of hands, and prohibition against physicians. The groups are all loosely organized and have no paid ministry. Too similar to be a different group. But definitely inacccurate of the origina sin issue and date of begining. I have the 2006 directory of churches which states the founding of each group. Many going back to the 1890s. Many of the churches do have long hair and wear dresses and would appear like a Pentacostal to a casual observer. Just because the source calls itself an encyclopedia it is not necessarily accurate. I appreciate your contributions and I do not mean to be a pain, but would like to see accurate information about the Church published here. Thank you. --Shanetoland (talk) 02:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP is not in the business of second-guessing sources that otherwise have all the hallmarks of reliability—that would be WP:OR. The church is specifically classified in the section on "Pentecostalism" in the citation, so the sources are likely referring to different groups of related but separate groups. Snocrates 03:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

I created a new article and it has been suggested that it be merged. This article should not be merged. The group discussed below has existed hundreds of years prior to the Pentacostal group mentioned under the General Assembly and Churhc of the Firstborn, does not share the beliefs of the Pentacostal group mentioned therein and has over 120 congregations, not 30 as the Pentacostal group desribed. It is possible that the author describing the Pentacostal group was incorrect and was referring to this group. But, the information contained about the Pentacostal group does not describe the group below.--Shanetoland (talk) 18:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To me they don't sound at all like the same group. It's possible the Pentecostal group is a break-away from this other group. How would the group you wrote about be described, i.e., what type or branch of Christianity would it be classified as if not "Pentecostal"? Snocrates 22:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a member of the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, I can tell you that it does not fit any classification I know of; it is unique... or, to borrow from the bible, we are "a peculiar people". —Preceding unsigned comment added by SirVenom (talk • contribs) 06:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems by what you are suggesting that there are two groups with the same name? Jake the Editor Man _(talk) 18:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There must be. It wouldn't be entirely surprising considering the name is taken from the Bible. Snocrates 21:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

what type of group

The Church of the First Born that I am speaking of has no affiliation with the current Pntecostal movment which began in the late 18th century, long after the Church of the First Born. There are some commonalities. There are also commonalities with Baptists, but it is not a Baptist church either. I would describe the Church of the First Born as being a seperate classification from Baptists, Methodists, Pentacostal, Lutheran, whatever. Many have not heard about the Church of the Firstborn because of the small size. --Shanetoland (talk) 00:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Firstborn Variety

Wow, it's great to see so many different articles on the different types of Church of the Firstborn. My father gets those same directories but I didn't know there was one out for 2006 yet. I usually find the General Assembly: Church of the Firstborn buildings tucked away in small towns and growing up in that church, there are some congregations that won't go to doctors due to scriptures stating that when others are sick they should seek the elders of the church and have them lay hands on them and pray to heal them. No worries though, I grew up going to doctors all my life. It was a few of my childhood friends who weren't so fortunate. If you want some reading material, try to google the name and check out all the cases of dying babies and mothers that are from Cushing, Oklahoma. Talk to ya'll later! Learjetsuperkingairmechanic (talk) 20:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am nearly certain that you are from the same church. I know people from the Cushing Church as well as Perkins, Trion, and others from Oklahoma. I don't care if they put up the stuff about the Pentacostal group, but I believe that there really is no Pentacostal group and the man that made the book which referred to the Pentacostal group was really talking about us. There are just too many similarities. --Shanetoland (talk) 00:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merging

I misunderstood the concept of merging earlier. I believe that "Genral Assembly and Church of the First Born" and "Church of the First Born" should be merged into 1 wikipedia listing.

I do want to make sure that it is understood that if there really is a Pentacostal group started in 1908, that it is not confused with the much older group that is not Pentacostal. --Shanetoland (talk) 23:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Church of the Firstborn is a disambiguation page that directs readers to different articles that have this or similar names. General Assembly and Church of the First Born can't be merged into that page. Each page has to have its own unique name. See WP:DAB for more info on disambiguation. Snocrates 00:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Physicians

I have deleted the last part of the sentence in the second paragraph which read ",but it does not believe in seeking medical help from physicians." Some members choose faith healing over seeking medical attention, however this should not be confused with doctrine of the church. Alynn05 (talk) 05:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC) Alynn05[reply]

You need a source. This is what it says in the source that is already provided. Snocrates 09:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It does not read in your source "they do not believe in seeking medical help from physicians" It is not doctrine and should not be published as though it is. Alynn05 (talk) 17:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC) Alynn05[reply]

Yes, it is in the source if you would care to look it up. It says: "The group makes use of all the gifts of the Spirit and holds the Lord's Supper in conjunction with footwashing, but does not seek the help of doctors." There has been some confusion about multiple churches with the same name. It's possible you are referring to another non-Pentecostal church of the same name, in which case you should edit an article about that church, not this one. This article has been written with reference to a reliable source, which is a requirement on WP. If you have a source which discusses the non-doctrinal nature of this belief, by all means, make edits in conformity with the reliable source. Snocrates 20:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can testify that the church of the firstborn in agra, oklahoma uses Physicians. Learjetsuperkingairmechanic (talk) 20:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]