Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

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User:Abtract is stalking again

Once again, Abtract (talk · contribs · logs · block log) is stalking and harassing Sesshomaru (talk · contribs) and myself. See the RfC/U for the full history (which expired with no action).

For the highlights, Abtract began his stalking campaign in mid-late May. In an AN/I on June 2nd he was warned to leave us alone, he ignored it. On June 2nd, another AN/I resulted in a 48 hour block. He came back and continued his stalking and harassment, stalking which he full admits to doing[1]. June 5th, another AN/I, he was blocked for a week. After that block, he took a two week wikibreak. He returned on the 12th[2], self closed his RFC/U on the 13th (though it had already been archived anyway)[3], and began his stalking again, reverting various random edits we've done to "disagree" with u.[4][5][6][7] as well as continuing his insults of other editors[8]. He's also continued to retain an attack piece against Sesshomaru in his userspace since May.[9]

He obviously is learning nothing from the blocks and intends to continue this inappropriate and disturbing behavior anytime he returns, thumbing his nose at the administrators who have blocked him, and the numerous editors who have attempted to talk to him (to which he always replies as if he is listening, then does what he wants anyway). -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 14:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Indef blocked

Please review. I would comment that I am imposing the block until such time as Abtract promises to moderate his interactions with (the edits of) certain accounts, and anyone who thinks sufficient clue has been applied may lift the block without reference to me. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks...would it also be possible, at this point, to delete the attack page? It was made May 4th giving the appearance it was prep for an RfC/U, but Abtract never touched it again and has just left it there for more than two months. -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 15:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Following a discussion on a similar subject, I would be against unilaterally removing the content; Abtract needs warning from another (uninvolved) editor that it should be removed, giving the various WP policies. If they do not remove it after an appropriate period it can then be deleted. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The now-archived request for comment may be of interest - Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Abtract. There are enough unaddressed points on both sides of the dispute to cause concern. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with a long block, but I'm certainly not comfortable with an indefinite block. Blocks escalate in duration, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month etc. We don't keep them blocked and make it a mandatory requirement for them to apologize or to accept responsibility or to make assurances. That's only needed for an unblock request. We still give them the opportunity to fix their conduct by themselves, without the wurble. I therefore think the appropriate definite period needs to be given prior to any formal unblock request being made by him. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen the block log? My experience of this editor is that they will say all the right things, agree to all the conditions, patiently wait out the blocks, and then continue doing whatever they please. However, if you think the block is inappropriate then by all means vary it - it is up for review after all. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think he's on his way to a community ban if he keeps it up, though given he's had 4 short blocks, doing an indefinite block already isn't going to necessarily help. I think giving him 1 long block of a month as a last chance might be better prior to going to indefinite stage. But as my suggestion is a month, when it's reset isn't urgent I suppose. I want to see some more views on it. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I think this would have been better if it had been an uninvolved admin doing the blocking. As Ncmvocalist has pointed out, normal procedure is a sequence of blocks leading to an indef when the community runs out of patience. If it wasn't this way, half the IP editors would be indef banned by now. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 16:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I would say the previous 5 blocks including the last one for a week was a sequence of blocks leading to an indef when the community ran out of patience. Also, we try not to block IP editors indef at all. Chillum 17:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Unwilling to learn from past experience; unable to take advice; deliberately wasting the time and disrupting the work of good editors; more than adequately warned... no argument with indefblock here. EyeSerene^talk 17:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget that "indefinite" does not mean "permanent". Corvus cornix_talk 22:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Presumably nobody here is reading the RFC, which was as critical of Collectionion and Sessh as it was of Abtract, and clearly shows that it was Abtract who had done most to resolve these issues amicably. Likewise the diffs Collectionion presents above, which seem to be good edits by Abtract. Note in passing that redirecting a page on the day of its creation with an {{underconstruction}} tag placed on it by its creator is rather gauche,and the revision history of Dragon Ball Z shows that Sessh and Collectionion seem to be "stalking" and "harassing" each other... When can an editor not review contribs and make edits they deem good ones? When can Sessh do that? When can Collectionion do that? When can Abtract do that?

Agree that Abtract could simply make this go away by not interacting with these users, but he has repeatedly offered to do so if they do the same. Please read the RFC and see Collectonion's and Sessh's rejections of the mediations offered there by various users. The pig-headedness is decidedly not all on one side here. I am disappointed that an editor can simply forum-shop until they get the result they want. 86.44.20.40 (talk) 01:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like to immediately remove the block on Abtract, for the reasons noted by 86.44.20.40. Abtract expressed agreement to several solutions proposed that would also apply similar strictures to Sesshomaru and Collectonian (who have also stalked and edit warred along with Abtract), but with no buy in. The histories of the articles linked in the complaint show that this is not a case of one editor harassing innocent victims. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

If you are going to make such an accusation, then please provide clear, valid evidence for the claim that I have stalked Abtract or anyone else. -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 02:42, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The edit histories of the pages whose diffs you linked here and in the RFC will show the edit warring. I apologize for saying that you stalked Abtract. I have only seen Sesshomaru trailing his edits, and formed my statement too hastily. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring is relative when he deliberately stalked my edits and reverted just to disagree with me (and the stalking is a fact, admitted to by Abstract himself). It directly violates the warnings given him in his last block. There is a difference and, note he also violated his own "I'll only revert them once" resulting in what should have been a very standard, commonplace unnotable album redirect into an AfD. -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 02:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring is rationalizable, but not relative. I can rationalize it when I do it, you can rationalize it when you do it, Abtract when he does it, and Sesshomaru when he does it. Because all four of us have done it. That's why I made the proposals I made in the RFC, and I think it's unfortunate that you and Sesshomaru wouldn't agree to them. -- JHunterJ (talk) 03:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There was no need for me, you and Col to adhere to that. It should only apply for Abtract, who seemingly enjoys edit warring. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 03:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There are many reasons for all of us to adhere to that. Seeking to address the multi-sided problem with a single-sided solution was not as good as addressing it with a multi-sided solution. From your perspective, Abtract seems to enjoy edit warring, since he does it when clearly you are in the right. From his perspective, I hazard that you seem to enjoy edit warring, since you do it when clearly he is in the right. -- JHunterJ (talk) 03:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

J I suggest you compare mine and Abtract's talk page histories and notice who has the most warnings. That's all I'm saying. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 03:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes J, if you are going to make such allegations I would like to see evidence. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Collectonian, you keep saying "self-admitted" and such, when Abtract is clearly saying he is taking his lead from Sessh, as in Sessh here [10] You know this of course. It's all in the RFC. Remember the RFC? And how dispute resolution is supposed to work? I don't like how you keep going to venues, carefully revising your framing of your case each time, so that more accumulates, and less people click through. 86.44.20.40 (talk) 04:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

And you do realize that we all know that you are Abtract, evading his block, right? -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 05:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The other, less absurd option is that I am the same IP that stumbled upon the RFC and gave a reasonable and uninvolved view there. Please don't do that "we" business, speak for yourself. 86.44.20.40 (talk) 05:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

(OD)I thought this was wrapped up, but if there's any doubt, I support the block. Abtract has promised on several occasions to stop crossing paths with these two editors, and appears incapable of living up to his promises. He appears now to be IP socking to protest the latest block. Support. Dayewalker (talk) 06:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Sidaway civility sanction: actionrequired

Unresolved

Moved to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Tony_Sidaway.

User:JimBobUSA

This user has been warned before about deleting a credible/reliable reference (a long article from the London Review of Books) from Yamashita's gold. He has given up on that, but is now attempting to delete the same reference from Japanese war crimes, while misrepresenting it as a "novel". I think a stern warning from someone other than me may help. Thanks. Grant | Talk 00:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to do it if you could get me the diffs of the previous warnings, and the diff for removing the ref from the Japanese War Crimes article. Beam 00:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it has to do with the following DIFFs:

• Yamashita's gold: [11] [12]
• Japanese war crimes: [13]

I see a lot of reverts, but this is something that doesn't require administrator attention at the moment. Have you tried dispute resolution? seicer | talk | contribs 03:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, WP:RFC or simple talking on the articles in question/user talk might be more apt at this time. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 06:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I support User:Grant65 on this. For many, many months, User:JimBobUSA is trying to eradicate all references to this topic on Wikipedia and discussions have provided nothing... as you will see here [[14]] [[15]] [[16]] Yamashita's gold has even been protected without any success : [[17]]. --Flying tiger (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There does seem to be something of a campaign being waged. I was saying to someone the other day that POV warriors have the more obscure areas to themselves because they can turn anything into a content dispute which outside admins cannot comprehend due to the specificity of the subject and the nature of the points being argued, and are allowed to drive away valuable contributors with knowledge in the area (such as Grant65 in this case) for years until they finally meet their match, get shoved into a corner, sockpuppet or stalk to get out of it and get blocked for that. It's a phenomenon which occurs time and time and time again - effectively a way of gaming our entire policy structure by testing the limits' of our volunteer admins' knowledge. The last one in my general area of interest to get blocked has now shown his true colours now that he is banned, by vandalising and stalking from an entire stack of IPs and usernames, and another one in my project, who had free rein in the place for 14 months despite *numerous* reports here, which all went nowhere or met with blithe calls for good faith, went the same way when blocked about a year ago.

I wish I had the time and capacity to intervene here, but I'm neck deep in content research at present and only have about 3 weeks before real life becomes busy again. Can someone look into this in more depth? Note: Be careful not to become an "involved editor" if you do, as that will then get used against your capacity to act in the matter. Orderinchaos 01:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This thread seems to sum up the problem with JimBobUSA rather nicely. If JimBobUSA disagrees with a statement, it cannot on any account be included. Even a straightforward statement like "Several historians have stated that Yamashita's gold existed", cited to no less than six sources, is rejected as a "novel narrative".Hesperian 01:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with all of the above. Part of the problem is that any rapport that existed, between me and JimBobUSA, has long since disappeared. I believe that he has breached Wikiquette in many ways, including a general lack of cooperation and repeated wikilawyering. For instance, he did not respond to my suggestion of mediation on January 14. I do not believe it is in anyone's best interests that I deal with him directly and this is why I ask that other admins get involved. Grant | Talk 03:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I've now read the edit histories of the article and talk pages and agree with your stance. JimBobUSA seems to miss the point that Yamashita's gold is about a theory of missing gold — the 1st line says "... alleged loot stolen ..."; the lead also says "The theory has been particularly popularised ...". No-one (as far as I can tell) is saying that the gold exists, just that there are theories that it does. And to say that, one needs to cite these same sources. I see that User:JimBobUSA engages in regular edit warring on a number of articles and despite numerous warnings given, then treats them with contempt (see User talk:JimBobUSA). Moondyne 06:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Josh Hamilton = Josh Hamilton (baseball) ??

Resolved

 – Not Spartacus

User:Josh Hamilton created his account on July 17, 2008[18]. According to him, he is Josh Hamilton, the baseball player. Five minutes after creating his account, he supported the RfA of User:Finalnight[19]. I think an admin should review this. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I've blocked him until he has a chance to confirm his identity to OTRS. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 04:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, you did a right thing. Masterpiece2000 (talk) 04:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be prudent to unblock per the user's request for Wikipedia:Changing username? Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 06:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, no, because he's also asserting on his user page that he's the ballplayer. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 06:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

[20] I don't see the claim anymore. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 06:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Because I removed it. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 06:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless, is it really wise to block someone who may actually be the person in question? It might be tenuous, but perhaps discussion would have resolved this. Or WP:RFC/N Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 07:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, either he is the person in question, in which case I don't expect that he'd mind being asked to prove it, since it's for his protection (and I did ask quite politely) or he isn't, in which case he shouldn't be unblocked under any user name. I haven't dealt with the unblock request because it should be dealt with by an uninvolved admin, but I don't see a lot of reason to unblock. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Silly question, but what is the threshold for blocking a user who claims to be a famous person unless they verify? Stephen King, Tom Cruise, David S. Goyer, Joss Whedon? What if its some author with 2-3 books to his name? Whats the threshold? Just curious. rootology (T) 07:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no hard and fast threshold. I would put it as simply, "enough name recognition." —Kurykh 07:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

"Do they have an article?" is the most sensible way (why create another set of criteria when we have one?), although this presupposes our notability criteria are effective and at the right level. Neıl ☄ 09:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

In this case, it is likely that User:Josh Hamilton is an imposter. He supported the RfA of User:Finalnight[21] few minutes after creating his account. Why would Mr. Hamilton, a baseball player, be interested in the RfA of Finalnight? Masterpiece2000 (talk) 02:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

He also "proved" his identity by providing me with an official sounding e-mail address...for a domain that was registered yesterday. I'd say we can mark this resolved. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 02:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a fine line between assuming good faith reasonably, and being silly about it. In a related story, I am actually Babe Ruth. You only thought he was dead. Trust me! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Liancourt Rocks

Our old Korean-Japanese hotspot article Liancourt Rocks is flaring up again, after being quiet for about half a year. The suddenness of the disruption (multiple disruptive throwaway accounts making either lame revert edits on the article or disruptive POV rants on talk, from both nationalities) leads me to believe there's again a coordinated campaign off-wiki. Please help watch. I've been blocking anything on sight that looks like part of the campaign, going as far as immediate indef-blocks with no warnings after a single edit. Given the intensity and stubbornness of disruption we've seen on this article, I stand by this rather extraordinary measure. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There's been some sort of recent news stuff about it [22] - I expect that has something to do with it. Tombomp (talk/contribs) 12:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Condoms, will people ever learn? Beam 12:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia has historicaly been viewed as a battleground for this issue yes. Can't find anything in english but there are korean and perhaps japanese blogs floating around that meantion the article that suggests there may be some online campaining specific to the article.Geni 15:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah here we are a group called VANK are probably involved. Sigh can't we just use the island for nuclear testing and have done with it?Geni 16:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

And this would appear to be the appeal.Geni 16:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Nuclear testing would probably leave some bits and pieces above the water. We need something that would cut the islands off well below sea level. --Carnildo (talk) 19:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

We could try air-dropping a copy of a few WR-related ANI threads on the islets, perhaps? That should finish them off. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Only if we could send a few of our most "famous" vandals there prior to the air-dropping. Wildthing61476 (talk) 21:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The Help Desk is catching it in the earhole; personally I don't want to touch the entry in case I get people shouting at me, but maybe somebody should have a word with the angry mastodon? --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 16:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, this disruptive title moving vandalism by a new editor can't be done by none but Japanese. I believe 2channel's systematic meat/sockpuppetry began active like this.[23] Former or banned editors are returning to gear like a war or new editors provoked by the recent controversies around Japanese Government's history book revision emerge. Besides, summer vacation is pretty long. The article is not the only one to occur edit warring. Comfort woman, Sea of Japan, Korean Strait and all are all in this same vein. --Caspian blue (talk) 16:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is sudden disruptive activity from both sides, that's for certain. Anyway, thanks to Geni for finding that Korean link. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Anyone ever notice the astonishing similarity between the map of the East and West Islets to Jonathan Swift's drawing of Lilliput and Blefuscu? Antandrus (talk) 03:11, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Jokes aside, it needs to be said that Liancourt Rocks is currently only one minor side issue in the much larger field of Japanese-Korean conflicts. The most disruptive at the moment seems to be comfort women, where a bunch of Japanese editors are persistently trying to whitewash Japanese war crimes and relativise them with tendentious accounts of Korean actions. I think we need to lower the bar for forceful admin intervention (quick blocks, topic bans for tendentious editing et cetera), to somewhere near Balkan level on Korean-Japanese issues in general. Assuming that there'll be community consensus to do so, I guess I'll just start doing that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think FPaS gets half the thanks he deserves for being the one who takes on quelling so many of these nationalist flashpoint disputes. Thanks FPaS. Neıl ☄ 11:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, thanks :-) (/me bows deeply.) But please help watching the area too, it takes at least two or three dedicated admins to do such a thing successfully. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I do have Liancourt Rocks bookmarked now, and will help out where I can. I did make a special template for the page! :) Neıl ☄ 12:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Just curious, is Spartaz really not coming back? He was doing a good job to the article too....-Caspian blue (talk) 12:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Need info on WP policies regarding pro-Nazi users

Hi.

I'm an admin on FA:WP.

We usually base our policies on EN:WP. So I thought I'd ask you guys, instead of Meta.

Are there any EN:WP policies regarding users that exhibit pro-Nazi edits? Or users with pro-Nazi user names?

I have a user on FA:WP that has awarded other users a barnstar (actually a Nazi medal insignia) with a swastika on it.

How would you guys deal with such occurences? Are there any laws anywhere that addres such issues? Thanks.--زرشک (talk) 12:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think we're pretty much laissez-faire with people who hold such opinions, as long as they are kept civil and neutral in the article space. For example, we have an admin, El C, who has a self-admitted left-wing slant, but at the same time, he keeps civil and doesn't let his feelings influence his article contributions. Sceptre ^(talk) 12:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Sceptre, that is not correct. Usernames which may cause problems can (and have been) blocked, and barnstars with inflammatory imagery have been deleted. Horologium (talk) 12:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Our username policy (Wikipedia:Username policy) specifically prohibits "Offensive usernames (that) make harmonious editing difficult or impossible.", and I would term some of the more pro-nazi usernames as meeting that criteria. As for userboxes and barnstars, I think an argument used previously in deleting such things was that it "did nothing to contribute to the building of the encyclopedia", which is true as far as it goes. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 12:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

No barnstar "contributes to the building of the encyclopedia." Beam 12:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Er, yes they do if they contribute to the morale and act like a carrot to improve editing. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Didn't read the thing about usernames, sorry: yes, they can be blocked. But as far as opinions, as long as they don't interfere with building an encyclopedia, they're okay. Sceptre ^(talk) 12:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Comparing pro nazi with left wing is comparing apples and oranges by a few orders of magnitude. A user who made pro nazi edits and awarded another user a barnstar with a swastika would get an indefinite block from me.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the preceding sums it up rather well. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

In regards to the barnstar issue, I found this in the recent archives:Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive152#Offensive Barnstar. It was nuked. Horologium (talk) 13:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, barns stars are generally seen as one of the ways that the community interacts with each other - and it's generally accepted that all communities need some "glue" and this is one such manifestation. While the article space needs to be NPOV, the reality is that userspace is not for a lot of fairly complex reasons. The community gives people a lot of freedom in their userspace *but* it has it's limits and part of that relates to disruption. Leaving aside, the contempt most of us having for Nazi ideals, the presence of a barnstar using a swastika as a sing of affirmation and "reward" would be disruptive and would be nuked from space as soon as it was used here for that very reason. --Allemandtando (talk) 13:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately if I were to block this user for awarding another user a Swastika barnstar, many folks would demand to know on what policy is my decision to block the user based on. Are there any policies to base this on, or is it merely the perogative of the admin? Again, any thoughts are appreciated.--زرشک (talk) 13:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

That racial divisive barnstars are disruptive and do nothing to promote the core goal of building an encyclopaedia. --Allemandtando (talk) 13:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Swastikas/fylfots do have legitimate non-Nazi-related uses even in contemporary culture, but obviously users should take care with such things. I see the specific example you raise really is a Nazi medal, but I just wanted to highlight that fact so that we don't accidentally throw the baby out with the bathwater! :-) --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 13:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no specific policy at en.wp, but there might be at some of the other languages. While it's not hard-and-fast, many of the language sites (German, Polish, Norwegian, and so forth) are dominated by members from a single country, and that country's laws may influence policy. It's not at all far-fetched to imagine that the German Wikipedia would have policies specifically banning such activity, as German law is quite strict on that issue. Perhaps you can find a bilingual (English/German or Farsi/German) user who can find that out for you. (Sorry, I speak about two dozen words in German; I won't be able to help.) Horologium (talk) 14:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately the intersection of Category:User de and Category:User fa seems to be empty. :-( You might like to look at just the members of Category:User de, I guess you at least have English in common with them (if they're editing on en-wp, stands to reason they speak the language). --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 16:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

← Look, I'm just one admin, but I would readily block someone making "pro-Nazi" edits and awarding Nazi medallions as barnstars, and not think twice about it, wikilawyering notwithstanding. The day we need to cite chapter and verse of policy to block someone who's come here to promote Nazism is the day this project officially becomes unworthy of volunteer effort. MastCell ^Talk 17:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

People making pro-Nazi comments, or anti-Semitic comments, or denying the Holocaust, or having an obviously Nazi-sympathetic barnstar or other indication are routinely indefinitely blocked. There isn't a policy about this, per se. Its just standard practice, similar to how the ArbCom routinely blocks or supports the indefinite blocking of pedophilia activists or self-professed pedophiles. Its important to respect varying points of view, even those that are in some ways objectionable, but certain positions are anathema to a collaborative environment. Avruch ^T 18:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, editors self-identifying as Nazis and making edits promoting fascism, etc., are blocked as a matter of practice rather than explicit policy. I guess that's because such editors are also typically disruptive in some way or another, and are blocked for inserting racist slurs into articles rather than for identifying as Nazis as such. That's probably why we've never needed a policy to that effect. There is consensus, though, that divisive and inflammatory extremist behaviour in general is not allowed, as reflected in e.g. WP:CSD#T1.  Sandstein  21:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

We may have an issue here with differing standards by different communities. Without attempting to characterize any editor on any particular wiki, I would imagine that most of the users on the Farsi Wikipedia are Iranian. The current Iranian government has actively promoted some of the more odious elements of Nazism's views towards Judaism, and that may be aggravating the situation. I understand Zereshk's frustration in attempting to identify a policy under which such antics can be grounds for dropping the banhammer; I don't think one exists here. It isn't tolerated at all here, through community consensus rather than formal policy. Do we have anyone who is active on he.wp? I suspect that they have a formal policy on the topic. Horologium (talk) 18:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Spammers using different IPs to add external links

Some spammer is adding this external link FREE CCNA Practice Exam Questions to Cisco Career Certifications from different IP addresses as this this2 this3 I reverted these edits and gave a general warning not to add them again each time. At the third instance , I gave a Final warning at User talk:116.71.191.250. How do I proceed here as the spammer uses a different IP every time ( so no point reporting to WP:AIV..Please advice -- Tinu Cherian - 14:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

This is the fourth attempt today -- Tinu Cherian - 14:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

If there's a problem, I suggest you file a spam report at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam, instructions there. The URL to be blacklisted is likely to be ccnacertificationguide.com. x42bn6 Talk Mess 14:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Or you go over to WP:RFPP and request semi-protection of the indicated page. --PaterMcFly (talk) 14:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm gonna spam-blacklist the url locally, since other IPs seem to be contributing on the article. -- lucasbfr ^talk 15:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done -- lucasbfr ^talk 15:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. When I reported this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam, I got a message that it is already backlisted. Is there anything I should do ? -- Tinu Cherian - 16:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

This should be fine, we'll keep an eye open, but if they are persistent they may change domain to go around the blacklisting. If that happens, just poke WT:WPSPAM again. Thanks! --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 17:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to Dirk Beetstra, another attempt by a registered username was reverted. -- Tinu Cherian - 05:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Four separate cases, a common thread, and I have no idea what to do about it

We need to, as a community, decide how we are going to handle the situation of a page in user space that, while not quite an attack page, exists for airing grievances or making a point about specific editors. I know it is theoretically prohibited under WP:UP#NOT point #9, but it doesn't seem to always work out that way.

There are at least four borderline cases I am looking at right now. In each case, other editors raised objections to the material in question, WP:UP#NOT was pointed out, but the editor with the user page feels the page is allowed and refuses to budge. In a couple cases I have sought admin enforcement, but there does not appear to be a consensus among the admins on how to deal with this.

So now I am forced to tell people, "Well, I think it's against policy, but I can't get anyone to enforce it, so... uh... maybe we can beg him to compromise?" Not fun.

The following links all contain content to which at least one user has objected, which I feel runs afoul of WP:UP#NOT, and which the creating editor refuses to remove:

• User:GHcool/Views (previously on User:GHcool, initially ad action was taken but it is now floundering)
• User:Abd/Allemandtando (ongoing MfD, but do we really need an MfD for this sort of thing?)
• User talk:Posturewriter#The Motivations, Strategies, and Tactics of my Critics
• User talk:Romaioi#Summary of Events Concerning False Sock Puppetry Accusations against User: Romaioi

(Even though the last two are in User talk space, the user has made it clear they wish it to remain a permanent fixture of their talk page and do not wish for other users to reply in the same section) --Jaysweet (talk) 17:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

GHcool may still be on vacation, so maybe we should continue to wait on that one. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Meh, let GHCool have his little propaganda page. His command on "references" makes him a "good" editor, so I don't see him going away any time soon. Not that I'd even want him too! Beam 17:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

my case should not be discussed here as is now the subject of a suspected sock puppet case and that case should take primacy. --Allemandtando (talk) 18:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The page, User:Abd/Allemandtando is, as is noted, the subject of an MfD, which is currently heavily Keep. It's not a page as described by Jaysweet, not a page for "airing grievances." It's actually a neutral page, intended to be a compilation of facts (diffs, edit summaries), which has now been used, as Allemandtando points out, as an evidence page for an SSP report, Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day (3rd), because, when I finally started compiling it today -- the page was almost blank when the MfD was filed, though it was created two weeks ago (and was the subject of comment in AN/I by Allemandtango within a half hour, obviously somebody is watching my edits -- I saw a very strong correlation between Allemandtando's registration and an edit of mine to an AfD that he dove into the next day; I'd suspected Killerofcruft -- his name when he registered, less than a month ago -- of being Fredrick day before, but this made it likely, and I'd missed the connection. Fd is known to stalk me, was a popular deletionist editor, and, when unmasked, shown to be, as an IP editor, thoroughly and very reprehensibly uncivil, with gross vandalism of user pages, and other disruption. Killerofcruft was clearly disruptive, was the subject of two AN/I reports within days of registration, and I could go on and on, but won't. The SSP report isn't a user RfC. It is purely a statement of a reasonable suspicion that Fd has returned as Killerofcruft. Fd has claimed that he had other accounts, so I would not take a simple connection between Fd and another account as conclusive. One account previously suspected to be Fd, and now "retired," -- and who had a good record, and was only suspected because of an odd edit from an exact IP known to have been used numerous times by Fd -- could have come back, for example. But Fd very likely had numerous sock accounts, and Fd would not be his oldest account. Fd was a single-purpose account, dedicated to AfDs, and was not naive on registration.--Abd (talk) 18:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

You left out User:Nishidani. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

@Beam: I never suggested for a second that GHcool be sanctioned, I just question whether it is appropriate that the "Views" page calls out specific editors -- more than one of whom has complained about it.

@Jayjg: I just took a look at Nishidani's user page for the first time, and while it's a bit WP:SOAPy, I don't see where it calls out specific editors, which is my main concern with the four pages I brought up here. Not that I'm saying it's perfectly fine, I just think it's potentially a different problem.

@Everybody: Well, the lack of response is telling me that the community is not interested in enforcing WP:UP#NOT point 9. Which is fine, I suppose, I'll just tell the folks who are offended by these pages that there's nothing they can really do about it. I'd suggest revising WP:UP#NOT if we're not going to enforce it, though... --Jaysweet (talk) 13:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:UT#NOT points to Wikipedia:Utilities, a historically inactive page. Perhaps the link is wrong? Chillum 13:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Heh, yeah, sorry... I noticed that about the same time you did, and I went through all of the places in this section where UT was mentioned and replaced it with UP -- and accidentally changed your comment too because I didn't notice you'd added it. Sorry!

I had looked at the relevant section via the shortcut shortly before posting this, and somehow I figured it wasn't UP for User Page, but UT for User Talk. My bad. --Jaysweet (talk) 13:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ahh I have context. Now, if the page serves no other purpose than to attack another user then WP:CSD#G9 applies, if the page has a reasonable purpose other than attacking someone then it is a matter for WP:AfD. We have policy to address this. I would say all four examples shown in the first post of this thread are AfD fodder. I think telling anyone that we don't enforce WP:UP#NOT section 9 would be a misrepresentation of reality. Chillum 13:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

There was an MfD on GHcool's user page quite some time ago that resulted in no consensus. An ongoing MfD on Abd's page got stalled because of other circumstances, but it wasn't look very good either. MfDing the other two would be awkward at best, because it is a single section of the User Talk page that is the problem. I could try that, but I'll bet you a hundred WikiBucks that it doesn't result in any action. --Jaysweet (talk) 14:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

If the community does not decide the content should be deleted then that is the way it goes. I don't understand the bet you offer, if the MfD didn't turn out how you wanted just go to DRV. Some policy is enforced by the opinion of one person, ie CSD, other policies are enforced by consensus such as WP:NOT and WP:USER. It does not mean that the policy is not enforced, it is just that it is enforced by consensus, not the strict letter of the rules. Chillum 14:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Not one of those four pages has any purpose in building a better encyclopedia. It shouldn't have to go to MFD, and the wikilawyering by some to get their rubbish kept is tedious, to say the least. I also have no idea why Jayjg thought it was a good idea to creat User:GHcool/Views. I would delete/remove them all, put a explanation on each user's talk page making sure to mention WP:SOAPBOX, revert and warn anyone who restored the content, blocking them on a second offence. Neıl ☄ 14:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) Well, yes and no. There is no need to re-establish community consensus for every policy enforcement. Or perhaps we should start a new !voting process called WP:Vandalism for reversion, and before you revert vandalism we have to get consensus at WP:VfR? heh... I don't mean to make light, but my point is that the community consensus on this is highly unclear, and WP:UP#NOT does not seem to reflect the ambiguity. People come to me and say, "Hey, 'perceived flaws' aren't allowed on user pages, but this guy lists perceived flaws," and I say, "Yeah, he does, but all I can really do is ask him nicely to remove it." And surprise, most people say no.

Note that none of this involves me personally. I'm just growing increasingly frustrated because I'm not sure what to tell people to do in these situations. --Jaysweet (talk) 14:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Neil, the community has repeatedly rejected the idea of deleting pages due to WP:NOT without an XfD. If you think this should be different the go to the policy talk page and make a proposal. These arguments for deletion belong on XfD, not ANI. Chillum 14:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll try MfD, but when inevitably someone asks me, "Why is a user talk page at MfD?!", I will say, "Chillum made me do it!" (Or perhaps, I could create a page User:Jaysweet/Chillum made me do it.... It's not speedyable as long as I have at least one section on the page used for something productive, right? Hmmm... ;p ) --Jaysweet (talk) 15:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't say "Chillum made me do it!". Say "Policy requires that deletion based on this sort of policy violation should be based on consensus". Come now, lets get to the heart of the matter, it is not me, it is the way we have done things for a rather long time now. Ideally the closing admin would take into account the fact that a person's argument demonstrates a lack of understanding of policy. Chillum 15:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, I am not literally going to say "Chillum made me do it"  ;) However, I am also not going to say "Policy requires..." because my interpretation of policy and past community consensus is different here. First of all, I did not think XfD was the proper venue for removal of a section of any page. Secondly, I have seen content that violates other parts of WP:UP#NOT removed on sight.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I'm not convinced that you're right either. So, what I would likely say in that case is neither "Chillum made me do it" nor "Policy dicates...", but rather, "It was suggested to me based on [permalink this ANI thread] that MfD was the proper recourse for violations of WP:UP#NOT." Fair 'nuff?

In any case, I am giving Posturewriter and Romaioi some advance notice that I plan to do the MfD, in case that makes either one of them change their mind and decide to remove the content in question on their own. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW, if you can point me to a specific policy that says "Inappropriate content on a User page or User talk page should only ever be removed by consensus via the MfD process," I'll apologize profusely and then shut my mouth. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello,

I see also user:JaapBoBo. I think it can be seen in contradiction with WP:UP#NOT points 7 & 8. Ceedjee (talk) 19:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:ABUSE not working

What happens when reports filed at WP:ABUSE doesn't solve the problem? I've had a report filed at Wikipedia:Abuse reports/69.19.14.xx for a couple of months. It had early activity in solving the problem, and the behavior ceased for a short while, then the person behind these addresses continued. I'm not criticizing neither WP:ABUSE nor the person assigned, but I'm not seeing the value.

Very brief and sporadic vandalism (no AGF here, the contribs which I've reported are falsifying dates and other information). It's like a splinter under your fingernail. I'd like to get it taken care of, but WP:AIV won't work, since the standard 31 hour blocks won't solve their patterns; and WP:RBI is getting wearisome. Yngvarr (t) (c) 17:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't a range block work here? It's a sufficiently narrow range.-Wafulz (talk) 18:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I would request a range-block, but I'd be concerned about diffs like [24] [25] which are valid (good faith) edits from an IP in the same range, so I'd suspect it's a different person at that point (or perhaps another person in the same household, I'm getting the feeling that this might be a very young child. no real evidence, but just a hunch). Yngvarr (t) (c) 18:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see if and when the ISP has been contacted, and what the replies have been if any. If there hasn't been any replies yet, it might be a good idea to mail them with a last warning, along the lines of "if you are unable to take action, we are forced to block the range. In the block message you can tell them to bug their ISP, but in more suble wording. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The worker on the case marked about half of my earlier IP reports as done, so I'm going to take it that there was some sort of ISP contact. Should I nudge the worker on the case? I'd hate to be pushy and all that, but the last action posted by the worker was a little short of two months ago. Yngvarr (t) (c) 19:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems a bit odd that there would have been contact about part of the IP's. The whole point of these kind of things is that we contact the ISP, to help with things we can't do. In this example, find out who was at the adress, if it was the same person, and take action against that person. The ISP would need all the adresses for that. A friendly nudge to ask how he is doing on the report, and if there has been any email contact yet could just do the trick. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Strangeness at The Wizard (film)

Someone seems to have replaced the page with some vandalism I can't find. It's been replaced with a Celtic cross and the message "This is Zodiac speaking. I have recently bean informed about your litle website. You canot ex cape me.". Any idea how to fix it (or how to find this person)? --UsaSatsui (talk) 22:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

A vandal hit one of the templates used in that article. --Golbez (talk) 22:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah. But which one? Most of them are protected already. --UsaSatsui (talk) 22:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, it's been fixed. It was {{who}}, and User:BettyLouJensen did it. Thanks. --UsaSatsui (talk) 22:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

National Review opinion piece regarding WP Admins, on cbsnews.com

Resolved

 – Nothing new here, climate change deniers incensed that Wikipedia reflects the dominant world-view; in other news Pope stated to be Catholic, study says bears shit in woods Guy (Help!) 13:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved? Ha, that's funny. What's been resolved in this? Or do you mean that you are resolved to keep your head in the sand on this issue? :) --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/08/opinion/main4241293.shtml?source=search_story

excerpts:

Wikipedia Is A Stunning Example Of How The Propaganda Machine Works

Wikipedia is full of rules that editors are supposed to follow, and it has a code of civility. Those rules and codes don’t apply to Connolley, or to those he favors.

Nor are Wikipedia’s ideological biases limited to global warming. As an environmentalist I find myself with allies and adversaries on both sides of the aisle, Left and Right. But there is no doubt where Wikipedia stands: firmly on the Left. Try out Wikipedia’s entries on say, Roe v. Wade or Intelligent Design, and you will see that Wikipedia is the people’s encyclopedia only if those people are not conservatives.

I saw a link to this article on a industry message board where 99.9% of the posts are industry related and not related to politics, global warming, wikipedia, etc.

Just FYI but information that administrators should know about, at least what is being written about WP. Chergles (talk) 23:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

That's not really from CBS News; it's an opinion column in the National Review. Looks like there's already discussion of the essay at Talk:Naomi Oreskes. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

National Review has no particular biases themselves, though. In fact, NR is kind of leftist itself - a tad to the left of The American Spectator, anyway. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:59, 17

July 2008 (UTC)

Its obvious from the talk page citations of Naomi Oreskes that the guy is a moron who has a bone to pick. Nothing else needs to be said. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 00:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, you can think this if you wish, but the fact of the matter is that he has a platform based on observed experience and his points have found their way into two undeniably mainstream media outlets. Whether you agree with him or not is irrelevant, his piece serves to undermine the credibility of Wikipedia as a resource and ignoring that fact won't make the problem go away. --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Meh...its National Review...and the opinion of a GW skeptic to boot. Maybe, if the editor who wrote that piece can refute the findings myself and others made when writing Retreat of glaciers since 1850 and come up with some other explanation than global warming, then it sure would be nice to see it. I tend ot be rather conservative on some issues, more so than the average wiki editor, and we looked long and hard for evidence of glacial advance and found almost none documented anywhere worldwide.--MONGO 23:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

In matters of science, I'm more inclined to believe National Geographic than National Review. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(Thinks the topic should read "Attack article from NRO reaches cbsnews.com, no one cares") SirFozzie (talk) 23:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Small correction, no one at Wikipedia cares. I am sure the people reading those pieces will care ... especially given that they won't have the benefit of the viewpoints being expressed here. --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec with multiple editors) Thinks SirFoz is helping NRO prove its point. If Solomon is right, and I'm too tired to look it up now, the attack articles would be on Wikipedia. Having worked in the trenches on this kind of thing, nothing in Wikipedia could surprise me. Actually, come to think of it, bias in Wikipedia, in principle, wouldn't surprise anyone posting in this thread, would it? Face it, when it comes to political controversies, especially anything that makes more than a couple of people livid, Wikipedia's consensus method stinks like piss pot in an asparagus farm. It's harder for a lot of people to put aside their politics than they think it is. You know exactly what a Wikipedia article on Negro would have looked like if this encyclopedia that anyone can edit were around in, say, the 1920s. So don't brush off the problem. I don't have the time to get into whether or not Grossman is correct, but when a respectable publication runs an article saying this website has biases, not taking it seriously is close to the worst reaction we can have. Noroton (talk) 00:50, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100% with the sentiment. But of course, when more editors are "left", that's what happens. And it's ok, if the people of the "right" had the ability to find good sources and worked at it they could tilt the articles a little bit if they cared to. Beam 00:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Beam, that’s the theory, but in practice where articles on controversial topics are concerned, the most ardent partisans are the most active at keeping contrary information out. Less motivated editors tend to move on rather than keep on wasting their time in unproductive editing. It’s a problem that Wikipedia has not yet found a good solution for. Askari Mark (Talk) 00:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ditto this. --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Does William Connely really do that stuff? Beam 00:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Mostly the answer to this depends on whether you agree with him or not. The incidents cited in the article certainly happened. --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeeech. I don't know whether I'm more disturbed by the fact that notable sources are calling wikipedia biased, or by the "whothefrakcares" attitude that is apparently the primary wikipedia response. I've half a mind to email Oreskes a link to this discussion just so she'll have a nice followup article. --Ludwigs2 00:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The same notable sources that brought us Conservapedia? I'd be more worried if they DIDN'T call us biased, to be quite honest. SirFozzie (talk) 00:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The odd thing is that, we get criticized for having articles written by random laymen who don't know anything about the subject they're contributing on. Here we have an eminent, published scientist who has done extensive work and research in the realm of climate modeling contributing... and because he's edited the article to make clear the scientific viewpoint, that's illegitimate bias! So, experts should contribute but... not in the field that they're expert in? Is that what this guy is saying? FCYTravis (talk) 00:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you over-rate WMC's impact here ... and that's not me talking it appears to be the opinion of his supporters on his BLP where they are arguing that Solomon's assertion that WMC may be the second most influential person in the AGW debate (due to his activities here on Wikipedia) is (in their words) absurd. Even so, Solomon's point is not that WMC shouldn't be allowed to contribute ... but rather that his degree of influence over the GW pages is excessive. This view is held by many here at Wikipedia as is amply demonstrated by his history within RFCU and RfA's over time. There are always plenty of people taking this same perspective ... just not enough to drive home a consensus on the point. --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

He's saying that since Wikipedia doesn't support the minority viewpoint regarding GW, a viewpoint that he shares, that it must be because we're biased. And that folks like Connolley, who have studied the facts and seen the evidence first hand, who are only trying to keep minority viewpoints from being given a larger portion of representation than they deserve, must be biased. The undue weight clause of WP:NPOV is one of our prime policies particularly due to the need to keep minority viewpoints from overtaking the quantifiable evidence.--MONGO 00:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

No, he's saying that they tactics used to keep out contrarian viewpoints introduce a systemic bias. Your mileage may vary on whether you agree, or not, but the tally seems to fall along ideological lines which suggests there is some truth to it. --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT is (probably out of necessity) very vague. It's basically a judgment call each time to say just how much we should include from minority views, and those judgment calls rely on a consensus of editors with judgment. Which tends to be lacking if the debate gets heated. I'm coming around to the idea that WP:COOL, WP:CIVIL, WP:TALK are each about ten times more improtant than WP:NPOV. (I'll take it on faith that everything you say about Grossman and Connolley is true.) Noroton (talk) 01:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

There is indeed an issue with the wiki rules. I.m.o., the wiki rules are too much focussed on the politics articles, they are not good guides for editing the wiki science articles. The global warming article is written from the scientific point of view. This is how most wikipedia articles on scientific topics are written (by consensus of the editors). It is not correct to say that global warming is a controversial topic. In the scientific community it is not controversial, there hardly are any "contrarian views" published in the leading peer reviewed journals. We don't consider any other sources reliable enough for science articles.

What happens on the global warming pages is that from time to time some editor who usually edits politics articles comes along and argues that our own rules for reliable sources are in violation of WP:RS. This happened yesterday and I wrote that this is irrelevant, because either WP:RS agrees with the standard we use (which is simply that a source is reliable if and only if it would be acceptable for a scientist to use in one of the leading peer reviewed journals) or it doesn't. If it doesn't then that is a problem for WP:RS and one should discuss that on its talk page. Count Iblis (talk) 00:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, to claim the scientific journals are apolitical is hogwash. The scientific community is every bit as political as any other community. Factions form within the community and the members of those factions support one another precisely as part of the peer review process. The editors of the journals are perfectly able to shift the balance of what gets published and what does not by simply cherry picking the referees. It doesn't take a genius to know that this can and does happen. --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Taking a step back from the specific article and even from global warming, Count Iblis, do you doubt that -- in principle -- politics can taint both the scientific community and by extension Wikipedia? Other than watchful humility on the part of all of us, I don't see any way we can avoid it. Noroton (talk) 01:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how that could happen, especially not in a field so large as climate science were thousands of scientists are active in. It may be the case that more scientists are left wing compared to the general population. But that's simply because a left wing world view is more compatible with science than a right wing world view. The same can be said about atheism. E.g. almost all cosmologists are atheists for obvious reasons.

It is hard to see how politics could influence a discipline such as climate science. You do some technical research write up the results and submit it to a peer reviewed journal. Then you get a Referee report. How could politics have an impact in such technical exchanges? The only way I can imagine would be if the referees and editors had some hidden agenda and were rejecting articles on political grounds. But the editors and referees are members of the scientific community themselves, they are not appointed by politicians.

So, the whole scienctific community must then be politically biased. Otherwise you would get disputes amoung the editors of the journals and you would hear a lot of complaints by scientists about unfairly rejected articles, but this doesn't happen a lot. So, you are then led to assume that some giant conspiracy exists similar to the conspiracy theory that the Moon Landings were faked. Count Iblis (talk) 02:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

To recognize that political factions exist within the scientific community, as they do within any community, hardly requires an appeal to a conspiracy theory as you suggest. To assert with a straight face that such factions do not exist, however, requires a willful assumption of disbelief of significant proportions. --GoRight (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Your faith in the scientific community's ability to step away from bias is touching. When science touches on sensitive political/social topics, such as research into gender differences, IQ testing, homosexuality and genetics, the consensus is always influenced by the strictest adherence to sound scientific theorizing based only on a dispassionate, open-minded review of the best research results. Personalities, politics, corporation funding and prevalent social views never, ever influence any scientific consensus. (Except when they did in the past, perhaps, before previous consensuses were overthrown by the current consensuses. Then we find scientists not only drawing conclusions from bad information but sometimes drawing bad conclusions despite good information -- but that all stopped in the past. Such practices are never carried on in the present. Because scientists act perfectly rationally, now, you see.) Because when you put on the white lab coat, human nature experiences wonderful changes. Left-wing world views and atheism are naturally the result because, after all, they're only a kind of applied science. What a coincidence that science has proven that leftwing world views are correct and that God doesn't exist when those views are prevalent on university campuses. (Coming up after the break: Scientific research establishes proof that long hair and unshaven faces on men, a taste for Star Trek and Cheetohs are the most rational cultural preferences that a human being can have!) Of course, we have to reflect whatever the current scientific consensus is on an issue, as Sheffield Steel puts it so well below. And the major minority views, as WP:WEIGHT reminds us. But should we be careful about describing those minority views which, as the history of science shows, might one day become the consensus? Only if we approach politically contentious topics with an appropriate degree of watchful humility. When science books get to be outdated, is it solely because of new information and theories no one ever thought of before? Only if scientists as a group are perfect. Noroton (talk) 15:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

If you look at historical cases un which with hidsight there was a lot of political bias, what you see is that the science was not driven by objectively vrifiable facts, that personal opinions/interpretations played an important role. In some scientific disciplines this is still a potential problem, take e.g. psychology. In cas of the "hard sciences" everything is unltimately based on the laws of physics. Personal opinions may influence the work of a particular scientist (e.g. by determing what kind of research he/she does), but you cannot get a situation where it influences a whole field.

So, while Freud's personal opinions may have influenced the field of psychology, the field of climate science will be influenced by the results of research which is based in observations and theoretical computations. Many climate sceptics don't have a background in physics, there are some economists, staticians and political scienctists who are skeptics (I think there are only two active climate scientists out of the few thousand who are sceptics"). They are used to the fact that political opinions can influence their own fields, and they mistakenly think that climate science is equally susceptible. Count Iblis (talk) 16:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

You may want to revisit List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming and get back to us. There seem to be plenty of physics and natural sciences individuals included there. --GoRight (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, your faith is very touching, but my examples weren't from psychology. It was you who brought up cosmologists (hard science?) and their supposedly scientific disbelief in God. How rigorously one looks at certain observations and theoretical computations is not always a simple matter of applying the rational parts of one's brain, as the history of science shows. I'm arguing a pretty limited point, and it's not worth going on about: be humble. Noroton (talk) 17:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions and Scientific consensus#Scientific consensus and the scientific minority are worth looking at -- not because they show that scientific consensus is meaningless, but because they reinforce the idea that not all minority viewpoints are necessarily wild-eyed kook theories. You can violate WP:NPOV in more than one direction. Noroton (talk) 17:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Another thing to think about, scientists and historians funded by the state (which can also mean any state supported university or school), being only human and with bills to pay and mouths to feed like most anyone else, may indeed tend to support the PoVs put forth by the state through its power hungry politicians and bureaucrats. This has nothing to do with left or right (or even green), or with scientists blowing off codswallop belief systems like ID, but truth be told, the outcome is even worse than most think. From what I've seen, some academics knowingly play the game, having given up long ago, while others have somehow swayed themselves into thinking everything's NPoV or that, at least, never mind the bullocks, they're still being somehow helpful to the world in spite of it all. Still others throw up their hands and go into the private sector, with many and sundry outcomes. Meanwhile as WP:V says so pithily, it's not about truth, but about sources, which is as it should be but we don't handle sourcing in some articles as openly and neutrally as we could, hence the wanton systemic bias in some high profile articles. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well put. Noroton (talk) 16:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. --GoRight (talk) 17:11, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec with Travis & Iblis) Beam, your second and third sentences contradict each other. And actually, your third sentence is being tested out right now at Project Vote where Bdell555 is essentially a Terminator robot searching out evidence and providing cogent arguments and just not stopping (at least as of about six hours ago when I had the chance to check). What I find in these situations is that some editors can be convinced, and some will never, ever, ever, under any circumstances change their minds no matter what the evidence. Wikipedia doesn't handle that situation well. At all. Noroton (talk) 00:50, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll admit that I've got a bias against the National Review and GW deniers. The assertions brought up in that article are troubling at first glance. Here is one of the edits. The main trouble is that this Peiser's criticisms are not really published except on the internet. Plus, although he does present papers which doubt that global warming is anthropogenic (allegedly from Oreskes database), he only brings up 2, 1 from AAPG (petroleum geologists) and another from Futures. That's not compelling. II | (t - c) 00:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

You might consider reviewing Talk:Global_warming#Conflict_over_NPOV_in_the_introductory_paragraphs which has an on-going discussion of similar criticisms that HAVE been published, albeit in a peer reviewed journal that the IPCC backers take issue with. Still, it is peer reviewed and otherwise meets WP:V. Still their simply seek to exclude it from inclusion on procedural grounds. This is exactly the type of thing the Solomon piece is talking about.

On a separate point, is your admitted bias also transitive? Does the fact the CBS News also decided to print the same piece simply get dismissed in your mind because it started out in the National Review (actually it first started in the National Post? --GoRight (talk) 17:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Gee, an opinion piece in the National Review lambastes an online encyclopedia for accurately reporting a consensus view in the scientific community that if taken seriously threatens to disrupt the smooth sailing of well established American economic interests? You wouldn't say.PelleSmith (talk) 01:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Gee, so everybody else's bias is wrong but yours? Watchful humility. Watchful humility. Read your comment the way most outsiders would who knew nothing about some subject and heard one side charging bias and the other giving the response you just gave, oozing personal opinion from every pore while dismissing the critic. You just got down not to his level but below his level. Treat critics of Wikipedia (even of minor importance) with a respectful attitude or you've already lost the argument because a charge of bias is, when you think about it, a charge of arrogance. Don't indict yourself. And Grossman's argument, right or not, was actually that Wikipedia was inaccurately reporting someone's view. Noroton (talk) 01:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC) (((clarified my comment -- too tired, gotta go for now. Noroton (talk) 01:35, 18 July 2008 (UTC))))

There is nothing mysterious or secret about the National Review's political slant--as with other such magazines from the left and the right. I'm not sure how an observation based on common knowledge indicts me of anything. If you want to argue that scientific consensus somehow reflects a liberal political bias then you're very welcome to do so, but there are some rather obvious facts here which make this entire discussion uninteresting. 1) Scientific consensus is reflected in our encyclopedia's entries on global warming and 2) the National Review is an openly conservative news magazine aligned with a political position that still disputes the POV of said consensus. I'm not entirely sure what you think my bias is, but comprehending rudimentary social facts shouldn't be considered bias--unless of course it is the ability of others to engage in empirical observation that you take issue with in the first place. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 02:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The implication that National Review ran the piece not because they thought it might be accurate but primarily because global warming threatens "established American economic interests" is part of a leftwing meme about bad conservatives only mouthing what they say because they're fronts for economic interests. That's a bias. I remember a magazine cover story last year that defended the idea of global warming and helped cement my own view that it's a real problem. What magazine do you suppose ran that cover story? Noroton (talk) 16:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Same piece at NR...[26]...Lawrence Solomon, the editor who wrote it also wrote a book called The Deniers: The world-renowned scientists who stood up against global warming hysteria, political persecution, and fraud. Just saying.--MONGO 02:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, a couple Grudgesocks.. er.. alternate accounts brought it up on the WMC/Geogre ArbCom case when it was first released. SirFozzie (talk) 02:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

If you want to really scramble their pinhead brains, tell them that Global Warming is just another aspect of Intelligent Design. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

What, you mean it isn't? Gahhh! — CharlotteWebb 13:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

If the published material from the reliable sources (i.e. the scientists' research papers) show a pronounced liberal bias, and we offer a faithful reflection of that, I think we've got it about right. To answer an earlier point, if Wikipedia was written in the 1920s, we would have written articles like Negro and eugenics very differently. We're here to document the prevailing opinion, not judge it, and certainly not to right wrongs. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 13:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Cheers for putting it like that, SheffieldSteel. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, well put. In tone as well as wording, with the exception that you neglected to say that we're also here to document the major non-prevailing opinions, not judge them, and certainly not to right wrongs related to them, either. Which was a major part of Grossman's point. Noroton (talk) 15:11, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The pith is, some high profile articles do carry heavy systemic bias, which is most often not the simplistic "left-right" or "helpful-unhelpful" kind of bias so many folks go on about. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

And the pith helmet for us is to let the folks going on about it know that they're being listened to with a careful ear and an open mind. The same principles that we're supposed to be using in writing the articles need to be applied to criticism of our articles. Otherwise (a) we lose in public-relations terms, and (b) we may deserve to. Think of outside criticism as a continuation of the talk page discussion by other means. Of course we're entitled to our own POV, but critics (at least the prominent ones) of particular Wikipedia articles are entitled to both be heard with an open mind and for us to be seen to have an open mind. Doing that is in the interests of the encyclopedia and its readers, and as this thread shows, we don't do it well enough. Noroton (talk) 16:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Saying that our position on "Intelligent Design" makes us firmly left is a bit like saying our position on Santa Clause not being real makes us firmly anti-Christian. Come on, just because we don't accept a fairy tale as reality does not mean we are taking a political position. Chillum 13:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Pope stated to be Catholic

Ironically, the Pope recently said we need to do more about global warming. Yes, the Pope is Catholic... as was National Review's founder, Mr. Buckley. Doubly ironic is that the Pope was speculated, at one point, to have been a Nazi... as was... oops, 'nuff sed. 0:) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The Pope's a Catholic?! Next you'll be telling me that bears are doing their business in the woods! --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 13:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Only the live bears currently at large in the woods. We also have zoo dwellers, polar bears, dead bears and unborn bears, none of whom can fairly be accused of polluting the woods.LeadSongDog (talk) 13:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This message constitutes Official Notice that, as of 13:14, 18 July 2008 the above thread has reached its Godwin's Law juncture ("inflammatory rhetoric" subsection). As such, Baseball Bugs has forfieted any and all of his winnings from the argument, to be distributed among the other participants, individually and severally, by a designated agent of the Pope (which may include a nun with a thick ruler) and the estate of the late William F. Buckley Jr. (a soldier in a war against <cough! cough!> a certain regime run by National Socialists). At the discretion of any administrator, or, for that matter, any damn editor (ouch! Sorry, Sister), this thread may be closed, as per the optional sanctions of Godwin's Law. We now return you to your regularly scheduled drama. Noroton (talk) 15:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Jawohl! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

That reminds me of this one: The Pope's secretary dashes into his office excitedly and says, "Jesus has returned and is on His way up to see us. What should we do?!" The Pope answers, "Well, at the very least... look busy." Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The Pope said we should worry about global warming? I thought God designed all this, shouldn't we just accept global warming? Chillum 15:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC) The preceding comment was meant as a joke.

Soitenly. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Just blame God for Global Warming and for high crude oil prices. ;) BTW it's just a tongue in cheek joke. Bidgee (talk) 15:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Something wrong with 24 (season 7)

Resolved

There is something wrong with the page. This is not ordinary vandalism. Need urgent admin attention.—Chris! _ct 00:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the problem (not to say it is not there). Can you describe it? -00:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Page hasn't been edited in two days. Grandmasterka 00:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Template. WJBscribe fixed it. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Look like it is fixed.—Chris! _ct 00:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Slipknot related edits

Resolved

As of member of the Slipknot project it has came to my attention that the same user has continually made disruptive edits to articles about the band. See [27], they have clearly ignored warnings on their talk page and have continued and was blocked temporarily for their actions. I'm not sure what the best resolution is but it's clear this user is out to either cause other users bother or does not understand the spirit of Wikipedia and it's policies. REZTER ^TALK ø 03:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't require admin intervention. Try engaging the user on their talk page. caknuck _° is back from his wikisiesta 03:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The Nobs

Resolved

 – Nothing here requires administrator intervention. Guy (Help!) 07:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I wish to bring to attention to the admins, the AfD for the article The Nobs, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Nobs. Yesterday, User:Tenacious D Fan nominated that article for deletion. There was no previous discussion on the Talk page about the state of the article nor was the article's original editor User:Yobbo14 given enough time to respond. With only one comment from another user, the AfD was closed within 2 hours by a non-admin User:TenPoundHammer and only 50 minutes of discussion, with the comment "content was merged" in the resultant article edit summary. This was not the case at the time of the redirect by User:TenPoundHammer. This is IMO an abuse of the AfD process and poor etiquette on behalf of the nominators involved. MegX (talk) 04:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It looks like the commenter in the AFD noted that the information that was included in The Nobs was already present in the target article, at Led Zeppelin European Tour 1970, which appears to have been the case. Another editor has added to it, from the looks of the history there, which is fine, but it would appear the basic information was already included. Nothing was lost by the merge/redirect. I probably would have left the AFD to run longer rather than closing it so quickly, to be honest, and I'll mention that to TPH, but beyond that I'm not sure there's admin attention required here. Tony Fox (arf!) 04:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

That was done so by Anger22 only after I mentioned this to him a few hours ago, not TPH. Had I not left a comment on Anger22's page I seriously doubt that information would have been added. MegX (talk) 05:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

False statements on RFA

Resolved

 – Yechiel (Shalom) 06:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it permitted to make false statements about other users on RFA?

If yes, please ignore this. Yechiel (Shalom) 05:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

My, what a fatuous appeal for help. You already replied at the RfA, which is the place to do so. However, this little stunt earned you another oppose.nevermind, you already failed, got RfA and RfAr confused. I'll be opposing at your next one, then. ThuranX (talk) 05:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

ThuranX, I would suggest that you be a little more civil in you comments. Comments such as "However, this little stunt earned you another oppose.", "...you already failed", and "I'll be opposing at your next one, then." don't help the situation at all. nat.utoronto 05:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)`

Hey, i'm being honest. A guy upset about problems at an Arb report comes here instead of handling it there, as he's supposed to, and that Arb is in part about his RfAdmin? It's reasonable to say that someone who seeks to forum shop and circumvent procedure shouldn't be an admin. it's really simple like that, and hardly incivil to say it. ThuranX (talk) 05:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you talk to the editors in question? —Kurykh 05:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Reminds me of this. Daniel (talk) 05:28, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm calling off the dogs on this one. I blanked the RFC. Yechiel (Shalom) 06:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, ThuranX, I didn't think during the RFA to check for all the false statements made about me. The whole RFA was done in 12 hours. I have a right to be upset about it, and the community has a right not to care. Yechiel (Shalom) 06:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no it doesn't. Those comments are really beyond the pale, and I think a 24 to 48 hour block wouldn't be out of the question. Jtrainor (talk) 09:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

User RFC

Having created an RFC about himself, is it in order for the OP to unilaterally withdraw and blank it? Mayalld (talk) 10:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Ending RfCs doesn't specifically address self-RFCs, but (N.B. I'm not an admin) I would say it's OK if there was no ongoing discussion, the participants don't object, he's taken on board any comments made, etc etc; business as usual really, except that the nominator and subject are the same person. :-) If users want it to remain open then the closure can be reversed, but I think it's OK to give some latitude to any user who's shown enough maturity to open an RFC on themselves in the first place! --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 13:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's codified anywhere but simply; if someone else has created an RFC on you, you cannot withdraw it as it's someone else asking for third party input on you. If you create one on yourself to get feedback for your own purposes, then yes, you can withdraw it. Usually it should just be closed and archived - unless it is uncertified, or has some other good reason to be deleted or blanked (such as you wanting to vanish). Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

He's vanishing now anyway (see WP:AN) so it's a moot point.

Very sad. That RFC/U was about the most ill-advised thing I've seen by an intelligent good faith editor in awhile. Ah well, such is life I suppose... --Jaysweet (talk) 16:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

More template transclusion vandalism

I'm terrible at finding this stuff, so could somebody fix Battle of Monte Cassino? That *is* template transclusion vandalism, right? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Also Tuvalu. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything. Have you purged the cache? Calvin 1998 ^(t-c) 05:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Have I whatted the what? Let me go through Firefox help and see if I can figure out what you're talking about. What I'm seeing is that Zodiac Killer nonsense. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The cache purge dealt with the issue at Monte Cassino, but not Tuvalu. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm so confused... where specifically is the vandalism? nat.utoronto 05:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to indef full protect all the pages in Category:Subtemplates of Template Rnd, one of them was the target, they are technical templates called by a lot of other templates to perform basic formatting functions, I've done some but need to get some sleep. MBisanz ^talk 05:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Would cascade-protecting Template:Rnd work? I don't know exactly how cascade-protection works, but I'm pretty sure that that would be an easy, on-click solution. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 05:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, while you're at it, you may want to look at Category:Subtemplates of Template Convert. I'd imagine those are used quite a bit as well. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 05:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec)they were on Template:World_War_II and Template:Rnd/b. Both are reverted and protected now. I think I'll look around and see if I can find any more heavily used unprotected templates... J.delanoy^gabs_adds 05:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Template:Commonwealth realms was also vandalized with the same thing. —Kurykh 05:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

A WP:PURGE and WP:BYPASS should fix up the issue once the vandalism is gone. I think Cobi might want to add yet another heuristic to ClueBot for this as well... Calvin 1998 ^(t-c) 05:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to admit, Calvin, I haven't understood a word you've said this entire thread. You seem to know what you're talking about, though, so I'll bow out and leave this to the more technically proficient among you. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:50, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Update the server's cache, then clear your own cache. That's supposed to clear up any template-vandalism. If that doesn't work... then the vandalism is still there and I just can't see it for some reason. Calvin 1998 ^(t-c) 05:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Ryulong appears to have gone through and protected all or most of Template:Rnd's subpages. Calvin 1998 ^(t-c) 05:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

All that MBisanz hadn't yet.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually Calvin (and this is probably the only technical thing I know that you don't), if an edit would cause more than 500 changes to the software (expanding templates, re-coloring links, etc), it is tossed in the job queue. The queue may take several days to fully process, as is seen with re-categorization edits. Usually a whitespace edit to a page with a vandalized template will fix it. Also, this is why it is important to find and revert the vandalized template as quickly as possible, since the longer timeperiod between the vandal edit and the revert, the longer each article will be vandalized, as the job queue progresses. MBisanz ^talk 06:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

He's back again, see Special:Contributions/217.15.121.102. Hut 8.5 18:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Seicer protecting his own revert at Urban exploration

Resolved

 – Directly contacting the person you have a grievance with (and waiting for their response) should be the first step before going any further. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have to bother you, but it seems to me that in protecting his own edit, seicer may have been contravening general Wikipedia practice. Can you advise me on what to do? Thank you. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 12:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems that posting here was the right thing to do, since, 31 minutes after protecting the article, seicer has now reverted to the previous version. Hopefully, this sort of thing won't happen again in future. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 12:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I gather that your complaint about the article is that it doesn't say enough about illegality and costs, and you've got a point. You should write up a prospective paragraph on the subject and post it on the talk page, if you have not already done so. I think it belongs in the "safety" section, because most of the folks doing this are probably kids who think they're immortal. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

• [ec] The only text involved is a POV tag. The POV warrior appears, on the face of it, to be you; I'm with Bugs here, you need to provide sourced text not simply assert that the article is POV because it doesn't adequately reflect your POV, however right you may be. You seem to be extremely agitated on the talk page, to the point of suggesting some kind of conflict of interest, which I'm sure is not what you intend. I suggest you calm down. Guy (Help!) 13:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I gather that the complaint about the article is that it doesn't say enough about illegality (trespassing) and costs (rescue efforts, etc.), and he's got a point. He should write up a prospective paragraph on the subject and post it on the talk page, if he has not already done so. I think it belongs in the "safety" section, because most of the folks doing this are probably kids who think they're immortal. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

EC'd on a clarification above. Guy (Help!) 13:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

My impression from looking at the contribs, etc., is that Seicer's reversion had more to do with you contacting him on his talk page to express your concerns... which I note you didn't do until after you raised the ANI/I report. I'm glad everything worked out, but in the future you may find that merely contacting the person you have a grievance with will solve more problems than an AN/I report. --Jaysweet (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I unprotected it before Papa contacted me, and I was not made aware of this thread on ANI. I stepped out into a meeting and just now came back to see a comment (not about this thread, though) on my talk page. I'd be more than happy to discuss this, but POV-warring is not the way to go about it. I've left it protected for one week; if there have been no more substantial comments, I'm removing the tag. seicer | talk | contribs 13:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Article on Soviet Union hacked since July 15th - semi protected

Resolved

The page was last edited on the 15th of July and has this bizarre message from "The Zodiac" in various characters (from that movie with that Jake Gyllenhall guy? The message appears in code, nonetheless.), and the page has been inverted in colour as to make it unreadable.

This shows up on IE6. Not sure about other browsers. The source didn't seem to show anything, so I dont know how it was inserted.

If I did this wrong, I apologize. This is the first time I've posted anything at all to Wikipedia.

Prometheus-BC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prometheus-bc (talk • contribs) 15:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Linky: Soviet Union. I'll have a look. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything unusual; unless it was some cryllic characters that didn't render properly, everything looks OK. Where in the article did you see the odd text? I'm thinking it might have been a template that was vandalized, and the location would help narrow it down. Thanks, UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 15:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

vandalized template was Template:Redirect6. IP blocked as an open proxy. Thatcher 15:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Fog

Can someone check the edit history of the article on Fog. I was adding to the article on Bristol International Airport, and wanted to check to the link I added to the sub-section there on Radiation fog. Suddenly, the whole screen goes dark and I have some form of hacker special message! I reverted this clear vandalism by going straight to the articles history page, and it seems an Anon IP was the last editor, so I reverted back to the last solid version of the article. I left at Vandal3 warning at the Anon IP's talk page, but am less positive now that it was that Anon. However, I note now that my reversion edit of the article does not stand in the articles history record. Help! Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 16:30, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Was just template vandalism on Template:Refimprovesect; User:(:Julien:) beat me to fixing it, bah! --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 16:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to spread the word about what template vandalism is so that people can more easily identify and reverse it; I've noticed that the users reporting it frequently seem to not know what's happening. Maybe one or more of Wikipedia:NotTheWikipediaWeekly, Wikipedia:WikipediaWeekly, Wikipedia:Wikizine, or Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost would be interested in reporting on it? I'm afraid I don't normally interact with any of those, so I'm not sure. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 16:46, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd be concerned about WP:BEANS, but if there's consensus that a signpost article would be of value, I can write one, if and when. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 17:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that the recent wave of fools doing template vandalism means that the cat is out of the bag, so BEANS isn't a major concern. I'm not an janitor myself though, so please contradict me if you think otherwise! --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 17:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Nor do I have the mop, but I am opposed to publicizing it until we have a better way of fighting it. Right now, going through the list of all of the non-protected transcluded templates on a page to find the one with the vandalism is a real pain in the butt, and most users are not going to do it.

If there were a button that said, "View Recent Changes to pages transcluded on this page", then I would support publicizing it, because we can get widespread community help in fighting it. But until it's that easy, I think you'll end up recruiting more bandits than you will deputies.. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point... That sounds like something that could be cooked up on the toolserver, doesn't it? Is there a specific page where we can put forward suggestions for new toolserver tools, or just the technical Village Pump? I'd try it myself, but I'm a bit busy at the minute and haven't even used the toolserver before. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 17:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Illegal Immigration To the United States- protected

Under general profile of illegal immigrants the first of the sentence of the child rapists. Other than not abiding by wiki's policy at neutrality it makes no sense can an editor please fix it and "illegal alien" is not appropriate just as "undocumented immigrant" is not appropriate. Change it back to illegal immigrant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant23 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The proper way to make this request is by creating a section on the talk page and putting the template {{editprotect}} at the top of the section. In this case, I think you definitely have a point, so I would go ahead and make the editprotect request. --Jaysweet (talk) 16:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Per Jaysweet. Alternatively, you can go to Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection which might get a quicker response. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Indiana Gregg

Indiana Gregg has been protected and a section documenting an important and relevant event has, in my view, been improperly deleted. Could a few admins please review and undo the deletion? Thanks. cannona (talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

That's not wise, considering that the removal was nothing more than correcting a BLP issue, and is the subject of OTRS #2008071410044846. The article was also being heavily socked, so I am endorsing the protection and removal of the BLP issue. seicer | talk | contribs 17:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Given that the sources noted are the Pirate Bay itself (not an independent source in relation to a dispute with the Pirate Bay) and the subject's blog (ibid), I concur with the removal. Have you taken an opportunity to discuss the matter with Phil? UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 17:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Pretty easy fix - find the reliable sources as requested, otherwise, between BLP and a high-level OTRS issue, you're completely out of luck. Shell ^babelfish 17:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I have only a passing interest in this, and you folks have much more experience with such things than I, so I respect the above opinions. However, I am curious. What issues are in question? The PirateBay obviously posted her emails, because they are on their site and that link has been provided. Indiana Gregg has mentioned this fact on her blog, so it is clear that the emails were from her. Several blogs have posted about this issue, though no mainstream media sources have, most likely due to the relative obscurity of the artist. Finally, it is difficult to see how the section in question could be read as inflamitory or libel. What am I missing? Again, this is not so much about the article as it is about my trying to understand the reasoning.

Thanks. cannona (talk) 17:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not so much truth; it's quite likely that the information was accurate. However, it's about a living person (Ms. Gregg), and thus must be backed by independent, reliable sources. Given that there is an OTRS ticket on this matter, I'd say that goes double. If there ends up being mainstream media coverage, or even not-quite-mainstream coverage (a news website, or some such, for example), then I'd say you're fine. Failing that, though, we almost always go with the safer option, which is the removal of the material. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 18:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense. Thank you for explaining. cannona (talk) 18:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Likely sock of User:Fredrick day

Please note this result. My questions for this board are as follows: 1) When the results of a checkuser are likely, should the account be blocked? And 2) what should we do about the various pointed AfD nominations that the checkuser confirmed likely indef block evading account nominated as I also asked here, here, here, and here? Also, please note these edit summaries: [28], [29], [30], [31], [32], [33], [34], [35], etc. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 17:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Not totally sure about the rest, but typically (or at least as far as I've encountered) if an AfD runs its course, even if the nom was made in bad-faith or by a banned user, the community is considered to have "spoken" on the subject and the outcome stands. Shell ^babelfish 18:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The discussions in question were hardly unanimous and thus, if the block evading account played a significant role in influencing the discussions, I think we should be concerned about that per precedent. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 18:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Absent some sort of clear and obvious fix, I think that WP:DRV is the place to go with these concerns. -Chunky Rice (talk) 18:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible to do multiple AfDs in one DRV or should each case be dealt with individually? As indicated above, I've contacted that closing admins and hope that they will agree to overturn or relist in some manner, but there is still the larger issue of whether or not a "likely" result means a block for the account in question as well. --Happy editing! Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 18:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

William Howard Taft

This page seems to be badly vandalized, in a way that I can't revert, but curiously the vandalized version is only visible when I am not logged in. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 18:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. There've been no major changes in the article recently. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Catch up, Will - we have a vandal who's been hitting templates. --Golbez (talk) 19:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

In this instance 80.248.10.234 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log); logged out users see cached material much more than signed in. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It looks pretty vandalized to me; I think 194.171.56.13 is right--it's only visible to people who aren't logged in. 69.26.216.147 (talk) 19:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)