Talk:Homeopathy

Please read before starting First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's homeopathy article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. A common objection made by newly arriving editors is that this article presents homeopathy from a non-neutral point of view, and that the extensive criticism of homeopathy violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Pseudoscience NPOV: Undue weight NPOV: Making necessary assumptions NPOV: Giving "equal validity" The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Some common points of argument are addressed at Wikipedia's Homeopathy FAQ. Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON). This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of homeopathy. See WP:NOT. If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of homeopathy or promote homeopathy please do so at google groups or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

The Lead

sorry to have 'hit and run' a bit with my editing above - but I still feel that the suggestions at Talk:Homeopathy/Lead are better than the lead we currently have... will try and work some of the suggestions above into the sandbox - and also try and merge the two suggested versions, with a view to replacing the lead before too long - I'm afraid I consider the current version rather weak. Privatemusings (talk) 08:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and I am looking forward to getting a new, more concise lede here. --Hans Adler (talk) 17:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

As an engineer and former nonbeliever, I really don't think we shall ever get agreement on the introduction. Homeopathy seems completely impossible and seems to violate the current laws. However, let me remind you that Albert Einstein's work completely obliterated the law of conservation of mass for certain cases. I believe that homeopathy is probably another one of these special cases. I think the best way to fix this page is to present the facts of what homeopathy is. Remove any reference to it working/nonworking and have links to a seperate page(s) to discuss this. I know it works because I have seen it many times, however, I truly understand the skeptic who has never tried it. I suggest that all nonbelivers try it out on themselves but purchasing some Arnica cream and put it on a bruise. In addition, if you want to see some awesome photos of impossible cures go to http://www.dupagehomeopathic.com/ and look at the photos. It really does seem impossible and I will tell you that it is really, really hard to practice. It is harder than any of the toughest engineering problems I faced. However, the results are amazing enough that I quit my Director of Engineering job to practice this very difficult medicine. Dr. Josephine Polich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.135.121 (talk) 12:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

<groan> I am a "skeptic who has never tried it", and you most certainly do *not* understand me. For a scientist (engineers might think differently), anecdotal evidence is the *least reliable* type of evidence, and being first-hand does not make it any better. Regardless of what happens if I try it, I would still believe an RCT over my own experience any day. If we could write the article so that the readers would understand this one point, we would be bringing them a long way toward understanding how science works. We should strive to do that rather than "removing any reference" to this most central of scientific questions. --Art Carlson (talk) 13:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Conservation of energy (mass is, in simple terms, energy) is not broken by Einstein's work, the notion was refined. Removing criticism and the scientific and medical view, the majority view, of homeopathy from the page seems like a bad idea and is contrary to wikipedia's core policies. Also, the last tube of arnica bruise cream I looked at wasn't homeopathic. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 09:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that random, double blind placebo controlled (RDBPC)studies are the best and verifying something. However, anecdotal evidence is also important and useful. Generally, they should be followed up by random, double blind studies. However, in the case of homeopathy that is exceedingly difficult because our model of health means that everyone is different. I may treat a person with Eczema with any one of 50 different remedies. We don't diagnose based upon disease but based upon how well they match a single remedy. If we conducted the RDBPC according to the remedy type then we would have better results. It is like trying to referee basketball using the rules of football. To further complicate matters, homeopathy is exceedingly hard to practice. It takes a lot of analytical capability to find the right remedy. Sometimes I simply can't figure out what remedy will work. When I can't match the right remedy, noting works. Now, there are some studies that I am surprised did not work. Arnica is a relatively simple to figure out (and of course you can find homeopathic and nonhomeopathic creams)and I was surprised that there are not tons of positive ARnica studies out there. However, I realized that the Arnica formulation was way too weak for the condition. I really don't know why they did not do a pilot study before hand, but I think it is because few homeopaths have research experience. Dr. Josephine Polich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.107.176 (talk) 13:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, this isn't the right place for this discussion (talk pages are for discussing the article, not a forum about the topic). However, please feel free to copy your comment to my talk page and I'll discuss it there with you, if you like. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 13:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I am particularly discussing the comments of "scientifically implausible..." in your note. We can certainly find a number of references that state the opposite along with controlled trials. Let us borrow from the wikepedia acupuncture page and put something like this in:

While homeopathy has been a subject of active scientific research since the late 20th century, its effects are not well-understood, and it remains controversial among researchers and clinicians.[ The body of evidence remains inconclusive but is active and growing. The WHO, the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the American Medical Association (AMA) and various government reports have all studied and commented on the efficacy (or lack therof) of homeopathy. There is general agreement that homeopathy is safe when administered by well-trained practitioners, and that further research is warranted.

If you agree, I am sure we can find nice little references for the statements. If not, I wonder why you don’t fight these statements in acupuncture given that it is just as strange and implausible. Lets be professional and agree to disagree in a reasonable way.

BTW- If Einstein's work is a "refinement", then homeopathy can be a refinement as well. We are mincing words here. Dr. Polich

No comments back disagreeing with my suggestion? Perhaps we can follow the lead from acupuncture throughout the page to present a skeptical but polite way to address the issues of homeopathy. If so, how do we get the page officially changed? Dr. Polich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.107.176 (talk) 10:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The analogy with acupuncture is flawed, as acupuncture has physically measurable effects. The debate over acupuncture is very different. The current theories suggested for how homeopathy might work are generally not refinements of well tested and understood scientific principles, rather they are counter to them; this is not a mincing of words nor a debate over mere semantics. There is currently no theory to explain the claimed effects of homeopathy that is consistent with scientific models and observation. I am against the changes you have suggested as they greatly misrepresent the situation with regards to homeopathy and evidence. Please get an account so that we can discuss things not directly related to the article without disrupting this page, or say hello on my talk page and we can invite others to discuss things there (that aren't directly related to the article). At the very least please sign your comments :) --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 11:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk of scientific principles is pseudoscience which was discarded in the Renaissance. Modern science is essentially empirical - it makes experiments and observations. Theories and principles are secondary and must follow these results whither they lead, whether they make sense or not. In medicine, simple mechanistic ideas do not suffice to explain many observations. For example, if you give someone an emetic in a certain way then it is found to have the opposite effect of preventing nausea. It seems that the doctor-patient relationship plays a considerable part in this and it may be that homeopathy is especially efficacious in this regard. Our lede should not be dogmatic when the matter is not fully understood. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

CW, you are partly right, but as that implies partly wrong. However, as I have said above and to you before, this is not a forum for discussion about homeopathy in general. The lead is accurate. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 13:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The article concerns homeopathy in general and so we must necessarily discuss this as we decide what to say. My comments relate to the content of our lede and so are quite proper. Since your own paragraph above is of a similar nature, your stricture is impertinent and hypocritical. Since such hectoring is uncivil and the article is on probation, please desist from such disruption lest you be sanctioned. For avoidance of doubt, let me be clear that my point is that our lede should not talk of fundamental scientific principles as it does. This is an improper synthesis which does not belong here. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I replied to your comments on the lead, and my comments about this not being a forum were directed mainly at the user without an account, and thus a talk page. I apologise if you thought I was being uncivil, that is not my intention. I was asking them to cease disruption of this page, although their comments directly related to improving the page are welcomed (as some of their comments have been). WP:TALK applies to all of us. It would be good if they got an account so they could join in more fully. Regarding your comments, I think you are right that theory follows experiment, and that theory and experiment must agree (with experiment taking primacy). However, I fail to see how this relates to the lead, as the lead is quite accurate. Homeopathy has not been shown to be effective, nor has it been shown to be a "more effective" form of placebo. The principles of homeopathy, and postulated methods of action, currently do not agree with experiment nor do they fit with established theories. They in fact appear to be contradictory to experiment and well established theories. The lead gives a summary of the scientific and medical view of homeopathy, which features in the article and is thus right and proper. I also think your call of synthesis is also incorrect, but obviously these are my opinions and the community should form a consensus about what should be in the lead. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 14:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

in my view i fele that the articles lead could be improved by adding information related to the homeoapthic controversy. The way the lead is writen now indicates that everyone is fuly aware of the mainstream scientific view of homeopathy. While the mainstream scientific view should have primality in the article, the cultural and alternative scientific prevalance of homeopathy should also be taken into acount. This is not so say that the lead should say that homeopathy is 100% perfect or anything, but simply to indicate that homeopathy isnt completely discredited with every single medical profession in the world. It shouldnt go into too much detail (thats what the main body of the article 0f for), but it should at least be a summary of the arguments presented re: hoemoapthys success, failure, re: placebos, et al in the main text of the article. My two scents. Smith Jones (talk) 16:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Ses, you state that this discussion is about editing the text and not about the efficacy of homeopathy yet you also return to this point. Obviously, it is an important one in resolving this issue. Regarding the comparison with accupunture. Yes, it is obviously the same. The Accupunture theory is just as far fetched as homeopathy and well as their claims. You can find research that is pro and con. However, both work in some unexplained way. Beter yet, would you have put such strong language 20 years ago when there was not as much research on accupuncture? Did that change the fact that is works? Anyway, my main request would be to remove the offensive paragraph while this is being disputed. Is there an official way to do this. Who can edit the page? BTW- why does it matter if I have an official sign on ? I sign my pages so you know who I am? Dr. Polich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.107.176 (talk) 12:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

One reason to get an account is that you can then edit the page. It also means other editors can leave you messages or discuss things with you on your talk page. The watchlist is also useful. I'm sure there are other great reasons... (I've now left a note on your IP address page.) However, I still think the comparison to acupuncture is invalid, as acupuncture has evidence of effect whereas homeopathy doesn't (beyond placebo). Acupuncture can also fit into current medical theory, whereas homeopathy can't. Acupuncture is a usually practised as a complementary therapy with EBM, whereas homeopathy is usually an alternative to EBM, and rejects much of modern medicine. The differences between homeopathy and acupuncture, the evidence for them, general acceptance within science, and the problems they face, are vast. For example, while it is known that acupuncture has an effect (you are sticking needles in people, after all) and that this could cause the release of chemicals such as endorphins, the mystecism of meridians and pressure points is much more debatable. Before removing the paragraph you would have to build consensus for this, and as yet there is none. To build consensus, it might be best to suggest alternative wordings or changes below in a new section so people can find them easier, if you like. New discussions usually go at bottom, and are more likely to get people's attention there. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 13:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I now have an account. If we need a consensus to remove it, how come we did not have one to create the paragraph? I realize that you think homeopath is quackery, but even you must admit that the wording is not consistant with other pages. Regarding acupuncture, sure you are sticking needles into the body. However, that does not at all explain the reactions that are observed. Similarly, recent studies of homeopathic remedies in water show thermodynamic changes to the water. However, the issue is that we should stick to non-inflammatory statements where there is consensus. There is no way that there will be consensus where the statements include “homeopathy does not work or there is NO scientific evidence supporting homeopath” or any other similar statements. Both of these statements are false. I agree that there are more studies that are negative than positive, but it is false to state that there are no studies. In addition, either homeopathy works or it does not. If there is a single study that clearly shows that homeopathy works then it must be possible. Clearly, drinking water would NEVER result in a positive study beyond the placebo effect. Speaking of which, one thing that homeopathy has hugely is a healing crisis, where things get worse before they get better (which may account for some of the issues with our studies). This is NEVER seen in placebo studies and it is very common in homeopathic treatment. Anyway, can you propose the nicest, least offensive language you are comfortable with? Drpolich (talk) 13:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I really don't think there is a problem with the 2nd paragraph of the lead; it is verifiable from reliable sources, correct, and gives both points of view with a respectable balance. The only change I would think could be done, to address the lead only, is to contract the final sentence from "The lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy[15] and its use of remedies without active ingredients have caused homeopathy to be regarded as pseudoscience;[16] quackery;[17][18][19] or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst."[20]" to "The lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy[15] has caused homeopathy to be regarded as pseudoscience.[20]" and place the rest of the sentence in the appropriate place in the article. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 14:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This is highly inconsistent with the reasoning ("NOT in the criticism paragraph") of removing the verifiable and reliable references to effects of highly diluted compounds in the phrase "While homeopathy advocates point to effects of compounds diluted almost out of existence[7][8]". Is the second paragraph a "criticism paragraph" (then why is it not titled as such?) or one that gives "both points of view with a respectable balance" ? Vyx (talk) 00:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that this paragraph can only have such things in it and is only to be critical, but rather than the focus of this paragraph is on scientific evaluations of homeopathy (which is what I should have said rather than criticisms). The other two paragraphs focus on summarising other areas of the article (definition and history, legality and prevalence), and not all references should go in the lead. It's much better to suggest changes to the lead, and other large changes, in a new section at the bottom of this page to get multiple input before applying your changes. I'm not sure that your references address the point of the paragraph, as these studies are not done at usual levels of homeopathic dilution (I think, I need to check). In homeopathic levels (beyond 12c, 30c is usual) it is not just diluted almost out of existence, but statistically there is not going to be any of the original substance left. They might have a place further in the paragraph as a response. As a whole, I think the lead gives both points of view (several actually) with appropriate balance, although I realise some people have problems with the 2nd paragraph. If ways such as my suggestion above and your current edit can be found that make the lead more acceptable, without diluting (!) the content and thus breaking NPOV/etc, that would be great. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 08:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Apologies, I've just realised you are referring to another editor and not my comment on your talk page. I would think their reasoning is similar, but I don't know obviously. :) --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 10:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, lets take a page from Wiki regarding psudoscience. I quote Pseudoscience also differs from protoscience. Protoscience is a term sometimes used to describe a hypothesis that has not yet been tested adequately by the scientific method, but which is otherwise consistent with existing science or which, where inconsistent, offers reasonable account of the inconsistency. It may also describe the transition from a body of practical knowledge into a scientific field.

Ultimately, whether something is pseudoscience or not has less to do with the ideas under study than the approach used to study or justify them. Acupuncture, for instance, while it involved a prescientific system, is not inherently pseudoscientific. This is because most of the claims can be tested scientifically so acupuncture can be viewed as a protoscience. Of course, a scientific investigation might fail to support the claims of acupuncture. In the presence of a number of tests that successfully falsify a particular claim, insisting that the claim is still scientifically supported becomes pseudoscience.

Based upon this definition. Homeopathy is NOT a psudoscience, just like acupuncture because it can be scientifically tested. Just because you have a references for the following statements " regarded as pseudoscience;[16] quackery;[17][18][19] or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst."[20]" does not mean that it is. I am sure I can find statements that homeopathy cures AIDS. However, it is not true. We must remove any statements like quackery, pseudoscience etc. Can you come up with something a bit more reasonable? Drpolich (talk) 14:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

See the archive for Homeopathy/pseudoscience discussions. I think I read that there was also an arbcom decision related to this, maybe someone can provide the references. Personally, I think the label is appropriate, as unlike acupuncture homeopathy is not consistent with accepted scientific theory, and it is well sourced. I agree that homeopaths should not be allowed to claim that they can cure disease. My proposed change above seems reasonable, and would remove the word quackery from the lead which seems to be one of the areas of contention. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 15:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Fine, lets look at a page with a medicine that is even less studied than homeopathy and has less clinical information. If you look at that web page they present lots of information on the practice without calling it names like pseudoscience etc. Lets follow the practice on the Arurvedic page present inbiased information and put a comment in the bottom similar to this....

Critics object to the lack of rigorous scientific studies and clinical trials of many ayurvedic products. The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine states that "most clinical trials of Ayurvedic approaches have been small, had problems with research designs, lacked appropriate control groups, or had other issues that affected how meaningful the results were."[20]

In India, research in Ayurveda is largely undertaken by the statutory body of the Central Government, the Central Council for Research in Ayurveda and Siddha (CCRAS), through a national network of research institutes.[21] A large number of non-governmental organisations are also conducting research work on different aspects of Ayurveda[22]. However, "even staunch advocates of Ayurveda like cardiologist Dr. M.S. Valiathan...admit that 'clinical studies that would satisfy the liberal criteria of WHO World Health Organisation have been alarmingly few from India, in spite of patients crowding in Ayurvedic hospitals"'.[20]

If you are fair you will have to agree that there is no way ayurveda is even less proven or believable. Their page is a fair representative on how we should proceed. 70.131.107.176 (talk) 22:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

wHAT DOES Ayourveda have to do with Homeoapthy? --Smith Jones (talk) 16:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Come on??? answer? Smith Jones (talk) 22:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Smith, it has nothing to do with anything, it's all just a WP:OR discussion to try to remove every negative qualifier from the article independently of what the sources actually say. I like specially "X is NOT pseudoscience because it can be scientifically tested". Uh, yeah, sure, right, whatever you say. I'm not going to enter into details. Let's just say that pseudoscience is not defined by whether the subject can be scientifically tested. It's more about having proponents that say (or have said on the past, like Worlds_in_Collision) that it has a scientific basis after it has been tested with negative results or unconclusive results, or after the positive studies have been replicated with negative results. If something can not be scientifically tested, I guess that it becomes pseudoscience when proponents claim that it can be tested and start making faulty science to prove it. Also consider the usual exceptions for religious stuff, which is currently not labelled as pseudoscience on wikipedia, and for all shades of grey, and please consider that this is not a complete definition of the term.... --Enric Naval (talk) 01:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Smith, sorry for not answering earlier. I have not been on in awhile. I realize that no matter how much positive research we present on homeopathy, there will be those that state that it is impossible. It is impossible for the two sides to agree. Thus, I have simply skipped this fruitless discussion and pointed out that there is less vitriolic language used in other therapies that are even less proven than homeopathy. We can choose to follow the tradition of Wikipedia as indicated by the Ayervedic page and choose to indicate that there is controversy without using offensive verbiage. Again, if you are not comfortable with this approach, I ask WHY? Why attack homeopathy and not all of the others? Drpolich (talk) 05:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

critics object that

I removed "critics object that" from the lead, as it appears to imply that only critics of homeopathy say that it has no scientific basis.

However, the fourth source for that sentence is an AMA report that plainly states that the efficacy of most homeopathic remedies has never been proven, and that there is some research touting efficacy for childhood dhyarrea, but that it has been criticized for several reasons and that its clinical significance has been called into question. It doesn't say anywhere that the efficacy is only put in question by critics.

As for the NHS source [1] (second lnk on the third reference), it talks about "supporters of homeopathy", but it does not talk about "critics of homeopathy". Instead, it talks about "Many medical doctors and scientists" and "some scientists", and it also makes non-attributed statements about clinical evidence and effects being caused by placebo effect (on the first paragraph)

As for the rest of sources, they appear to be several clinical studies of efficacy made by neutral parties and not by critics. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Brunton (talk) 13:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, the first reference is authored by Edzard Ernst, who should count more as "expert of the field" than as "critic". They talk about him on this Guardian article [2] that got added today to the article. --Enric Naval (talk) 02:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality disputed tag

• This tag has been removed without recent discussion or consensus. I still consider the article to have an unnecessarily hostile and offensive tone by comparison with other encyclopedic treatments. I am therefore reverting this change. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

• It may be useful to have a good example of a NPOV treatment, to indicate where we need to get to, in order to remove this tag. I recently found that the National Health Service has a good encyclopedic A-Z of medical topics on their home page. I just looked at their entry for homeopathy. This introduction tab corresponds to our lede. You will notice that it has milder tone and neither extols nor condemns the therapy; it just explains its origins and essentials while indicating that it is "outside of conventional medicine". Here is the text, which we should take as a model:

Introduction

Homeopathy is a complementary therapy. This means that it is one of a group of health-related therapies that are considered to be outside of conventional medicine. Other complementary therapies include osteopathy, acupuncture and chiropractic.

Homeopathy (meaning similar suffering) was developed by a German physician named Samuel Hahnemann at the end of the 18th century. Unhappy with the conventional medicine of his day, he began to research alternative treatments.

He began a series of provings, giving repeated doses of common remedies to healthy volunteers and carefully noting the symptoms they produced. This research led him to discover that swallowing quantities of some common substances would produce certain symptoms that mimicked those of medical conditions.

For example, herbalists claimed that Peruvian bark cured malaria. Hahnemann swallowed a quantity of Peruvian bark and began to experience the symptoms of malaria itself such as fever, intense thirst, drowsiness and agitation.

Eventually, Hahnemann formed a theory that like cures like, calling it the Law of Similars. His theory claims that if a substance that causes a symptom is taken in small amounts, it can cure a medical condition with the same symptoms.

Homeopathic remedies are said to work by stimulating the body's own healing processes to treat the individuals condition. Homeopaths claim that homeopathy doesn't just treat a person based on the symptoms of their condition, but is holistic, taking into account the persons mind, body and spirit.

Colonel Warden (talk) 13:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• In case it is not obvious, discussion of the therapy's effectiveness are found deeper in their treatment. Again the tone seems good, indicating that clinical proof has been difficult to obtain but not going over-the-top with extravagant debunking. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• Another point. The NHS example generally seems more accessible than our version - the text is light and readable, while ours is cluttered and turgid. Since we are supposed to be writing an article for a general audience, just as they are, we need some vigorous pruning. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you give examples of where you think this article is unduly negative in tone or confusing, and suggest alternatives? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• I just did so above. I suppose you mean that I should start fussing over the fine detail. I'm not going down that road because working upon this article is clearly a huge waste of time. This became clear when I looked at the very first version of the article from nearly seven years ago. This was not perfect but was better-written than our current version. It seems better to flag the article as the plaything of POV-pushing fanatics so that readers may understand its provenance and look elsewhere for a balanced presentation. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

• I have to disagree, CW. You need to point us to specific examples of places where the article needs pruning, that editors can take as a reference to solve the POV issues. Specially places where "going over-the-top with extravagant debunking" happens, since that should be able to solve if it's really non-neutral over-the-top, and not just plain statements of debunking and criticism from reliable sources. Also, I'm afraid that doing a wholesome comparison to an article on other website and saying that it needs to follow the same style is not helpful, since I don't think they have the same style guidelines as here. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• That's easy. The entire second lede paragraph must be rewritten before the tag can be removed. It's way over the top. --Hans Adler (talk) 01:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

• Uh, isn't this the one that kept being reworded and that its references were being challenged and improved all the time? Looking at a random version from 500 revisions ago, I think that it was expanded because of complaints that the claims on the paragraph were not correct, and every claim was picked apart and sourced by separate, I didn't follow all the discussions. (P.D.: I mean that there are probably good reasons for why it became so long, but it would require me to dig thought several archive talk pages to find them before I can find them) (P.D.D.: Notice that I don't oppose on principle to reducing the size of the paragraph, but it's a landmine that has been built after several disputes. I can't opinate without first looking at what caused it to grow so much) --Enric Naval (talk) 23:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The statement that this "the plaything of POV-pushing fanatics" is clearly breaking the terms of the article probation, does not assume good faith, and is unworthy of a wikipedian. It is also not a valid reason for the tag to be placed. The article is a mess as it has too many references in the lead (demanded by Ullman and his ilk), and too much explanation to support the valid statements. The article is fair, it just needs a good copyedit now. I suggest the tag is removed and CW is appropriately censured for this statement. --83.171.151.158 (talk) 12:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

That's quite a strong statement from a coward who comments using the TOR anonymising service. It is also so obviously inappropriate that I will refrain from further comment unless you choose to log in to claim responsibility. --Hans Adler (talk) 12:31, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience requires us to explain how mainstream science views homeopathy, that's not going to change. If you have SPECIFIC points with it, then we're open to talking, if you think it should not exist, or should not say anything negative about homeopathy, then this article is not for you. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 04:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The policy page you are quoting is adequate. Your interpretation of it is not. It doesn't say that the reader of a Wikipedia article on a pseudoscience topic should see the foam around the mouth of the article's author. It doesn't say that Wikipedia articles on pseudoscience topics need to be in the same tone as Skeptical Inquirer articles. It does talk a lot about objectivity, balance, and NPOV. Also note that it quotes an Arbcom decision: "Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized." Homeopathy in Europe has a slightly smaller following than psychoanalysis (the US situation is special), but it is extremely similar to it in most respects. --Hans Adler (talk) 07:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

‘Foam around the mouth of the article's author’? What are you talking about? Sit back, and have a cup of tea and a biscuit. When I came here to find out what this POV tag was all about, only to discover that it was about the second paragraph, I was really surprised, and not in a good way. The second paragraph explains in neutral terms that homoeopathy doesn't work, why this is not surprising and what tests have shown. When reading about a medical treatment, the first thing the reader will want to know is its effectiveness and we should not withhold that information. The only thing that I could find that could be considered slightly objectionable is the use of the word ‘quackery’, but if that is the common opinion in the medical community, and also taking into account that the definition fits, the reader has a right to know this. Rewriting the second paragraph to obscure, circumlocute or water down any of the claims currently there, could only serve the purpose of confusing or misleading the reader. I honestly fail to see the POV here, unless people are going to claim reality itself has a non-neutral POV. The scientific method and in the medical sciences double blinding in particular, is science's way of ensuring that the results arrived at are in agreement with reality. And using the scientific method it has been determined beyond reasonable doubt that homoeopathy doesn't work. Taking a statement of this fact as a violation of our neutral point of view policy in imminent need of tagging is obscene. I strongly encourage the editors of this article to remove the tag because an article tagged for, one might argue, no reason at all will leave a very unprofessional impression on our readers. Shinobu (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken since it seems quite clear that homeopathy does work. Moreover, at some points in its history, it worked much better than rival schools of medicine. For example, during the cholera epidemic of 1857, patients in homeopathic hospitals were much more likely to survive than those in the more usual sort. The lede is current written with your hostile and counterfactual POV and this won't do. Colonel Warden (talk) 05:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

While it seemed to work in comparison with 18th and 19th century medicine (ignoring the very real possibility that the groups treated in the homoeopathic hospitals in 1857 were not comparable to those treated by "rival schools of medicine"), the best that modern meta-analyses of the research can come up with are vague statements that the effects may not be entirely down to placebo (and in the case of one of the studies frequently cited by homoeopaths, the authors later stated that even this was probably an overstatement of homoeopathy's effectiveness). Saying that "it seems quite clear that homeopathy does work" is certainly "counterfactual". Brunton (talk) 07:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Brunton. To say that homeopathy "clearly" works is "clearly" incorrect, otherwise we wouldn't be having these problems. It seems clear to me that the evidence says it works no better than placebo. I think Gerbrant is also correct, that the scientific and medical view should be in the lead. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 07:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

When you says that homeopathy works no better than a placebo then you are agreeing that the therapy does work. Moreover, since placebos are quite effective for many conditions, it follows that homeopathy is correspondingly effective. Moreover, since the formulation of homeopathic remedies is especially designed to ensure safety, there are unlikely to be the side effects which one commonly sees with allopathic medicines. In this respect, homeopathy is better than SSRIs, say, which also are little more effective than placebo but which have serious side-effects too. Q.E.D. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Quoting CW "When you says (sic) that homeopathy works no better than a placebo then you are agreeing that the therapy does work" No, I'm not. Placebo means not working. The rest of your comment is ridiculous and is not discussing the article (See WP:TALK). Why have you written QED? What have you proven? Please take this to your talk page if you wish to continue, and let me know on my talk. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 11:22, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

My point seems clear enough already. So far as the neutrality issue is concerned, then comparison with the SSRI article may help in understanding the point. The lede for that article states "Their effectiveness and safety have been questioned." A single sentence of this sort would be appropriate NPOV for our article. A whole paragraph of tendentious attack is excessive. The whole article has this excessive and unbalanced tone and that why we have the NPOV tag. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The paragraph is proportionate and neutral. It could probably do with some trimming, as could the whole lead. For example, the only thing that is "excessive" is the number of references in the lead. Surely if they appear in the article then so many aren't required? I really don't see how a valid summary of critiques of homeopathy adds up to a "whole paragraph of tendentious attack". Your point seems to be that we should say homeopathy works and keep any criticism down to an absolute minimum (for example, your ridiculous "clearly works" statement). This would not be neutral, be incorrect, and break many wikipedia policies. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 12:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is a permanent battleground and everyone knows it. This does not need to be tagged. I have removed the {{POV}} tag. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

dude. this place is a battleground. you people into flame wars explode over the most minr punctuation decisions. we are on PROBATION for gawds sae. i am no tsure if it is a goo didea to strip off the NPOV tag without even consulting anyone. eprsonnally I support the decision but some of these people might not. Smith Jones (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Schmucky, we know it, but the tag is for all readers. Your reason for removing it happens to be the best reason for it being there. I'm restoring it. When there is no dispute about NPOV, then it can get removed. -- Fyslee / talk 04:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

These tags are not meant to be perpetual. When treated as such on controversial and fringe belief articles they do a disservice to all readers. It, in fact, creates a POV problem when true believers can highlight their battle to the general readership. This article will never appeal to homeopathy supporters. There will always be disputes about it. Allowing any editor to come along and highlight the dispute is a form of undue weight allowing the detractors to control what is displayed to readers.

The answer is for these editors to use inline tags to identify specific problems: {{POV-statement}}, {{POV-assertion}}, or {{Lopsided}}. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I placed this tag this year (not sure whether it has been used in previous years). I did so because the nature of the disputes here obviously indicated that a warning to the readership was required - that they should not assume that the content was stable and generally accepted. I gave some pointers as to what was required when the tag was placed and have done so again when it was reinstated - see the head of this section. My suggested benchmark is the encyclopedic treatments of the subject which one finds elsewhere. These do not appear to have been written by or for homeopathic advocates and seem to have a significantly more dispassionate and NPOV style than we find here. I myself am not a homeopathic advocate and so reject ad hominem jibes of that sort. Colonel Warden (talk) 16:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Placebo and scientific plausibility

I'm proposing a modification in "Homeopathy is scientifically implausible" to "Homeopathy beyond placebo effect is scientifically implausible". The rationale is that if the proponents of homeopathy accepted that it is just an elaborate use of placebos, then there would be no disputes over its scientific plausability. In other words: homeopathy is scientific implausible only if it claims effects beyond placebo. (Note 1: please notice the "if" above; it's just a hypothetical argument to show the contradiction in the original statement. Please refrain from disputing whether homeopathy is just placebo or not. Note 2: placebos have their valor, i.e., placebo is much better a therapy than nothing at all.) Fgnievinski (talk) 16:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this, since it fits perfectly with the later quote of "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst." Tim Vickers (talk) 16:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ditto for me. It's a necessary caveat. It may help to streamline the scientific consensus paragraph to combine the placebo effect clauses and separate them from the claims of violating the basics of chemistry & whatnot. — Scientizzle 18:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, to modify my previous statement...Adding any form of "beyond placebo effect" to the above sentence actually makes the paragraph more redundant, as the first sentence states "Claims for efficacy of homeopathic treatment beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence". Clearly the lead is a bit jumbled already... — Scientizzle 21:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you make it "Homeopathy, beyond placebo effect, is scientifically implausible" or "Any beneficial effects of homeopathic preparations, beyond possible placebo effects, are scientifically implausible", and wikilink if needed. Also, the grammar in general is a bit of a mess. And the lead is a bit long - partly due to all the unneeded refs for things that are referenced later. --78.54.120.62 (talk) 18:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I tried something that may help with the clarity of that paragraph. Feel free to improve or revert. — Scientizzle 22:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, OrangeMarlin reverted the essence of Scientizzle's edit, removing "greater than placebo" in the sentence "claims that these treatments have a pharmacological effect greater than placebo are considered scientifically implausible" [3]. Fgnievinski (talk) 06:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Placebo effect may be as scientifically possible as homeopathy, meaning, not at all. Placebo effect implies that there might be some causative value, even psychological. There's no scientific proof for this. It is clear that a random subsection of any population will either get worse or better with a non-therapeutic action, and by random probability the placebo effect just happens. Making it appear that homeopathic potions actually have any beneficial effect, even psychological, is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 21:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that your contention concerns the placebo effect itself, not whether homeopathy is at least as good as placebo, which is the point under discussion. While such contention is conceivable, it pertains to the article about placebo, not homeopathy. Regarding the actual point under discussion, it seems to me that there is enough evidence indicating that, indeed, homeopathy is at least as good as placebo. I might even dare to say that there is consensus in the body of original research regarding that position. (For references, please see each and every occurrence of the word "placebo" under homeopathy.) Fgnievinski (talk) 00:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, homeopathic lotions and potions lack any effect whatsoever. Even stating that it has a placebo effect, which has no scientific backing, is giving it medical credit, where it deserves none. BTW, there is no "consensus" in science. That's a canard that has no real meaning. Scientists do not sit around a room, debate for a few hours, then build a hypothesis and theory. Let's stick to the current statement. It doesn't do anything. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

By consensus I meant that there is not even a single piece of original research denying placebo effects to homeopathy. Please prove me wrong indicating any contradictory reference. Fgnievinski (talk) 01:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It is clear that you have an opinion about the value of homeopathy ("[it] deserves [no medical credit]"). You're entitled to. I might even share it. But it seems that you are further proposing that such opinion should be pushed down to the reader. I disagree with that; wouldn't that violate NPOV? Fgnievinski (talk) 01:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no controversy in medical science that the placebo effect is for real. There are tons of studies to show that patients respond in a positive way to an empathic practitioner, a friendly atmosphere and positive suggestions (e.g. I am a doctor, I have authority, I am here to listen to your problems, I know that this drug will make you much better"). The ubiquitous placebo effect is the main reason to use the expensive double-blind studies. MaxPont (talk) 06:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we are getting confused here about what scientific implausibility refers to! It is the theory behind the practice of homeopathy which is biologically, chemically and scientifically implausible. There is nothing about placebo in the founding theoretical hypothesis of homeopathy as far as I know. When we talk about placebo effect we are refering to the experimental results of real world testing. To say that placebo effect is scientifically implausible is of course untrue as there are plausible psychological theories to explain this effect. To say that "Homeopathy beyond placebo effect is scientifically implausible" is a mixed metaphor so to speak. The theory behind homeopathy is scientifically implausible. The theory behind the placebo effect is very scientifically plausible.--Kenneth Cooke (talk) 23:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with your conclusions! But it's not clear to me whether you agree or disagree with the proposal -- it seems you'd be in favor of a third option, is that right? If so, how would it be? Fgnievinski (talk) 00:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposal since it mixes together two separate issues which should be kept distinct. You might say...The hypothesis forming the foundation of homeopathy lacks scientific plausibility. However homeopathy is claimed to provide benefit through the placebo effect. However I would even then argue that even the possible placebo effect benefit is not enough to out weigh the harm that homeopathy does to the overall health of a community... see below.--Kenneth Cooke (talk) 05:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to re-state my point in yet other words: homeopathy is no worse than placebo. Does anybody dispute that? If not, then we should make the proposed caveat under the original statement. The rationale is that placebo might be significantly superior a therapy than nothing at all, and that denying even that slight benefit to homeopathy wouldn't be NPOV.Fgnievinski (talk) 00:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Homoeopathic remedies are a bit more expensive than standard placebos, but are no better or worse than regular sugar pills, since that is what they are. Another alternative is to say "The ideas and claims of homoeopathy are scientifically implausible." Tim Vickers (talk) 01:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with the similar statement "the ideas of homeopathy (meaning the theory about how it works) are scientific implausible" provided that we make the caveat "but its results (and for that matter, of any placebo treatment) are plausible". I hope I'm not stretching the point here -- I'm trying to be fair. Fgnievinski (talk) 01:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I might have stretched the point a bit too far at this time. I'm taking it back, to avoid it attracting undue attention, in detriment of my other comments above, which I still hold. Fgnievinski (talk) 01:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy can be significantly worse than placebo. First example... The substitution of homeopathic vaccines for the real thing can and does result in signifficent avoidable illness and sometimes permanent disability or death. Second... Much needed medical treatment and diagnosis can be delayed while homeopathic treatment is being given, particularly if the homeopath is not medically trained. We are dealing with peoples health and lives here, not some life style choice.--Kenneth Cooke (talk) 05:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I consider that Kenneth Cooke made a significant contribution to clarify the issue. I agree with his distinction about the scientific plausibility of the hypothetical mechanism of action versus that of claimed results of homeopathy. I also share his worries about the harm that homeopathy (and any placebo treatment, for that matter) can have when it denies otherwise necessary treatment.
Yet I think that to be neutral we must tell the whole story, just like we are doing here in the discussion page. May I therefore suggest something along these lines:

On one hand, the claimed mechanism of action for homeopathy lacks any scientific plausibility. On the other hand, the claimed benefits of homeopathy, as long as admissible under the placebo effect, are still scientific possible. Of course, beyond placebo, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which homeopathy fails to provide.

Please notice the usage of the word "scientific"; as it tends to give such strong credibility to any expression that it is attached to, I'm using it to support both positions (provided its usage is not untrue, of course).
My motivation is that the current version of the article gives the impression that homeopathy is a completely useless rubbish; assuming good faith on what homeopaths report, I don't want to deny the possibility of it being a sometimes useful placebo treatment (think of hypochondriacs). It's unfortunate that homeopaths themselves tend to make extraordinary claims regarding its mechanism of action (shooting themselves in their feet, in my opinion) and sometimes regarding its benefits beyond placebo (e.g., malaria), which is criminal in my opinion. Fgnievinski (talk) 07:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It kind of has to be "scientifically implausible", a naked implausible would be very hard to support. As for your objection because it might be useful as placebo, find a few reliable sources saying that and we'll talk about homeopathy as useful placebo. I don't think it'll make the homeopathy supporters very happy, though. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 20:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the qualifier "scientific": I was concerned that we'd be quick to use it to attack homeopathy, but reluctant to use it to support homeopathy (provided that support position is not untrue, of course). Fgnievinski (talk) 01:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

You are asking for reliable sources stating that homeopathy might be useful as placebo; right in front of the article, in its lead, we have it very very clear: "in the words of a 1998 medical review, '[homeopathy is] placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst.'"
Now I revert your question: show me reliable sources denying homeopathy as placebo. Because that's what the current version of the article is doing: it's giving the impression that "homeopathy is quackery, period." Fgnievinski (talk) 01:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience. We call it like science sees 'em. We also spend a lot of time detailing the proponents' views, but the general view, with the Lancet and Nature editorial boards coming out and saying so, is that it's at best very shaky, and cannot work better than placebo without rewriting most of science. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

You're saying that (i) representative science journals affirm that homeopathy cannot work better than placebo, which I agree. But you're also saying that (ii) the current article reflects that scientific view, which is the whole and only point of my contention.
To restate it once again: the article should imply "Admittedly, homeopathy can be as good as placebo (which is not insignificant)."; as of now, the article is implying "Homeopathy has no value at all, not even placebo." Fgnievinski (talk) 03:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Placebo and scientific plausibility, continuation

I think it should be stated in the article that the effects of exposure to a homeopathic preparation are in accordance with those expected from exposure to a placebo. However, I don't think it should be worded in any way which puts a positive spin on this angle. The placebo effect is the expected background effect which would be observed if any population were given any inactive substance and told that it was a powerful remedy. The effect can be separated out as unrelated to the actual substance administered, meaning that the make-up of the placebo has no effect on whether or not it is perceived to help. The fact that homeopathy is practiced suggests that it is claiming some benefit beyond placebo, that the specific substances which are diluted are potent irrespective of the placebo effect. What is the point of the diluting and shaking if the final product is no better than tap water? The wording should clearly reflect that homeopathy is implausible, that the mechanisms of action offered thus far to explain how it would work if it did work are implausible, and that any perceived activity has been shown to be the same as that observed after administration of any inactive substance (i.e. the placebo effect). Suggesting that a homeopathic preparation somehow evokes the placebo effect is misleading, as the effect can not be shown to to be dependent on the nature of the placebo itself. It occurs in the mind of the patient (best current theory), not through any pharmacological response. Perhaps:

Perceived positive effects after administration of homeopathic preparations have been shown to be no more prevalent than those expected from any other placebo and can not be attributed to any idiosyncratic properties of the preparation itself.'

I'm certain the appropriate references are already in the article.

Puddin'head Wilson (talk) 15:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't include the words "any other": not all placebos are equal, with those involving a greater apparent intervention tending to produce a larger effect. The homoeopathic consultation process, which involves the patient and homoeopath talking about the patient's health, lifestyle etc. generally for over half an hour (cf. a GP spending an average of about 8 minutes with their patients) makes homoeopathy quite an effective placebo. Brunton (talk) 07:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point of what the placebo effect is. Indeed, the consultation and talking to the patient is all part of the process. But after that consultation, the administration of any substance, even tap water, will have the same effect as long as the patient thinks they are getting a powerful medicine. For most people, the simple notion of speaking with a doctor is suggestive enough to bring about the placebo effect, regardless of the duration and depth of the consultation. The big problem is this: who do you want administering your placebo? Someone who has the training and insight to determine if there is any better treatment which will have a real and needed effect, or someone who's sole goal is to get you to take a placebo regardless of whether or not they actually have any idea of what is wrong with you? Based on the evidence already cited in the article, I think it is imperative that the article be clear on the fact that homeopathic preparations have no benefit beyond any other placebo. However, since every imaginable substance has not been tested as a placebo, this wording may be unwarranted. Any other thoughts on this?Puddin'head Wilson (talk) 14:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Let us also look at the limitations of the placego effect. It does not apply to infants, children or animals who can obviously not "think they will get better and therefore get better". Homeopathy works fine on all of the above. In addition, we have to constantly worry about healing crisis where the person gets worse before they are better. This does not show up in the placebo effect. Finally, placebo effects are typically very short lived, and homeopathic effects are long term. Sometimes I think I should take 50 of my Eczema patients who I know a too strong remedy will make the eczema return and demonstrate that this is not imaginary. Would you agree that if a 10 -400 concentration caused any change to anyone, you would need to question your belief system? Sadly, even if I could do it with minimal discomfort to the kids, the headlines would read "Homeopathy causes Eczema" never paying attention to the fact that the exact same remedy was used to cure the patient and that they were even better after the healing crisis. Anyway, if homeopathy were imaginary then why would we make up the healing crisis, and spend 2 hours asking every question under the sun so we can give them water? Also, if the healing of my patients is placbo, then I am in the wrong business. I think a megachurch would be way better. Drpolich (talk) 14:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Studies have shown that the placebo effect can apply to children, babies, and animals. Do you have clinical evidence for the existence of the healing crisis? I'd appreciate sources for this and for your claim that homeopathic effects are better/longer lasting than placebo effects/spontaneous remission/etc. I'm sure that you practice homeopathy because you believe it works :-) --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 14:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

"Mummy will kiss it better" is probably the original placebo. In addition, babies and animals who are unaware that they have been given a remedy are also unable to report an improvement in their condition. Any report of improvement will be made by the parent or owner, who is well aware that a remedy has been given. Brunton (talk) 17:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

A "healing crisis" or "aggravation" can also be a placebo effect if it is an expected result. We tend to see what we're looking for. If the patient thinks a healing crisis or aggravation is agood sign, then the placebo effect certainly comes into play. If the patient does not know about the idea of a healing crisis, it will be the homoeopath, who is expecting one as a possible (and positive) result, who interprets the patient as undergoing a healing crisis. See also nocebo. Brunton (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Please explain to me how a 6 month old child's eczema is going to get better with placbo? A 6 month old is not able to have any idea that they are treated. I would love to see your reference that they are better with placebo. Look at the photos at http://www.dupagehomeopathic.com/homeopathic_photographs.html and tell me how it could be placebo. Regarding the healing crisis, it is documented tons in homeopathic literature. . There are numerous reported clinical cases and as a practitioner I worry about it all the time, particularly in skin ailments. If I am not careful, I can use impossibly low concentrations to cause eczema to come out all over the body. Regarding the long lasting, if you get the remedy right then the ailment will be gone completely. In placebo, the ailment typically returns after a few weeks. I am not sure of the reference, but I have an article on it I got years ago. Yes, I agree that the research is lacking. However, that does not mean that it does not work. What is really lacking is the money to do good research. I teach homeopathy at a university and because of my engineering background I constantly think of awesome experiments. However, there is no money. You can’t make any money on homeopathic remedies, so no one wants to spend the money to research it. Drpolich (talk) 05:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The placebo effect is just one cause that anecdotes fail to control for. You also need to account for regression to the mean in chronic conditions, spontaneous recovery etc.

As for the suggestion that "you can't make money on homeopathic remedies", I'm sure this will come as a great surprise to Boiron. Brunton (talk) 06:53, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The placebo effect can cause the observers to feel there is an improvement when all that is happening is the usually cyclic nature of eczema. The placebo effect can cause observers to ascribe improvements that are from other cause (such as the change of diet you talk about) to the placebo, and also spontaneous remission (which is common in eczema, especially in babies) to be ascribed to the placebo. There are lots of homeopathic manufactures and clinics that have a lot of money, can't they fund your research? Homeopathy is a billion dollar industry, there seems to be plenty of money in it. Maybe you should write up your proposals and submit them to "Homeopathy" or Dr Ben Goldacre. There is no evidence for the healing crisis - it is a mechanism for explaining why the placebo doesn't work while nature takes it's course. And remember, it gets worse before it gets better. Therefore, I think your arguments against the article are incorrect. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 06:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The idea of a "healing crisis" is not unique to homoeopathy BTW, but seems to have been common in 18th/early 19th century systems of medicine, including the "orthodox" medicine of the time. Brunton (talk) 09:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

We are getting off topic, but I recently treated a patient who had swelling on the spinal cord. The steroids cost thousands of dollers and the homeopathic remedy $5. There is no comparison on the price. Yes Boiron makes money, but you can't charge much over the manufacturing cost. Thus, there is significantly less money to conduct extensive research. BTW- I know you won't believe this, but the patient thought it might be the steroids and not the remedy. I wondered too so I said "Lets, figure it out. Stop the remedy and we will see" The remedy was stopped and within 24 hours the pain came back.

Regarding the spontanious remission, it is possible, but not probable that each time a remedy is taken the healing gets better. You can belive that there is some sort of miraculous cure, but what is more probable? Did you even look at the photos? Do skulls reform spontaniously? Doubtful.

There are laws, extensive proceedures required for homeopathy and a significant amount of information indicating that it works. Homeopathy does not lend itself to Western style tests because of the need for individulization and the healing crisis (which dates back 200 yrs). Consensus is not possible, thus we should either delete the whole page or try to be reasonable like other "unusual" treatment pages have managed controversal subjects. Drpolich (talk) 16:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

The singular of data is datum, not anecdote. Drpolich, and everyone else, please remember that talkpages are not for discussion about the subject, but about the article. If anyone has a concrete proposal (deletion of the whole page is not one of them) for improving this article under the direction of Wikipedia policies and guideline, lay it out for real discussion or move along. — Scientizzle 16:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

• The healing crisis appears in numerous sources. Our article seems to say nothing about this and so an addition seems appropriate. I may add something myself when I get a moment. Colonel Warden (talk) 16:51, 9 July 2008 (U

I apologize for going off topic. I don’t think that we will get consensus here and there are people who will not follow the polite comments that are typical of the Wikipedia regulations similar to what is found in web pages on unusual treatments like ayurvedic medicine. I will never agree to a page that includes pseudoscience and quackery. Thus I would like to gather those that are reasonable and suggest that we make a whole new page on homeopathy and add it under some title like homeopathy-balanced information. Those who want to name call can have this page. I don’t think it is worth discussing anymore under this page. If anyone is interested please let me know. We need to have a reasonable, non-inflammatory page out there. Drpolich (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

What you are proposing is a variant on the POV Fork - a variant that is very much against Wikipedia policy. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

However, no more than the rude words used in the current topic. Drpolich (talk) 23:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you referring to "pseudoscience" and "quackery"? Given the extensive sourcing of those terms to scientific journals, I don't see any violation of Wikipedia policy. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 02:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Your claims are ridiculous. One of the references under pseudoscience lumped all alternative medicine along with homeopathy as pseudoscience. Plus, the article references pertained to someone's opinion, with NO scientific backup. . These statements need to be removed. The statments are misleading and rude. It is clear to me that some people in this discussion are not reasonable. Why can't we remove the offensive statements until this issue is resolved?Drpolich (talk) 21:13, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't attack other editors, and remember to Assume Good Faith (WP:AGF). I have suggested removing "quackery" from the lead, but the pseudoscience claim is very well sourced and supported. You need to provide good reasons for removing these assertions, but I really don't think you can. The homeopathic point of view is already provided, and the mainstream scientific view must also be presented. At the moment there is no issue, so the statements should stay, and you haven't provided a good, encyclopaedic, reason for their removal that fits with wikipedia policies. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 21:22, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

There certainly is an issue and, if I understand Drpolich's point, I agree with it. For a comparative example, I happened to check my home medical encyclopedia the other day for its entry upon homeopathy which is:

---

"A system of alternative medicine that seeks to treat patients by administering small doses of medicine that in a healthy person would bring on symptoms similar to those that the medicine is prescribed to treat.

For example, the homeopathic treatment for diarrhoea would be a very dilute laxative preparation."

---

Now the work in which this appears is The British Medical Association Complete Family Health Encyclopedia. This is a reputable work, published under the auspices of the main professional body for medicine in Britain, and has sold over a million copies. That encyclopedia, like others we have considered, does not present the topic in the debunking way of the offending paragraph. Such comparative treatments are good objective evidence that our article is overdoing the critical content and so is neither NPOV nor good encyclopedia style. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:00, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Your reasoning is flawed because Wikipedia has different rules. Checking other encyclopedias is always interesting, but we are required by the NPOV policy to edit in a different manner here. Here we MUST include significant controversies and criticisms. We must follow the references and describe all significant sides of the story. A personal website can tell one side, but here we tell it all. -- Fyslee / talk 20:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, the focus of that encyclopaedia is medicine, not C/AM, so it only mentions homeopathy for completeness ans gives the briefest of overviews. WP has a much wider scope. That it doesn't give a more thorough discussion is telling. It would count as a very small stub in wikipedia. Notice the language is very carefully crafted "it seeks to treat" and the only mentioned effect of the substances is to "cause" similar symptoms. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 20:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I can reference a number of studies that are positive for homeopathy and many have previous to my entering the discussion. Why is that not enough? If there is a single well done study out there that proves that homeopathy works better than placebo then you must question your statements. Because in no case would a glass of water be better than placebo. We don't have to worry about the weight of evidence. THIS IS NOT WESTERN MEDICINE. It is not an issue if homeopathy works for any single ailment. You say it can never, NEVER work due to the dilution. Thus, just one positive case or study proves you wrong. Does this make sense to you. I am hoping that the more scientific people out there will understand what my postulate is. Furthermore, If I did 100 studies of the efficacy of lexipro for hypertension then we would say Lexipro does not work. Obviously, it is the wrong study. I could easily set out to prove that Lexipro does not work. This is the problem with many homeopathic studies. They are the wrong study. Sesquip. are you an official of Wikipedia? If so, then I am wasting my time. I hereby request a change of personnel to someone who is more open minded. Drpolich (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not an official of wikipedia. Also, I wasn't the person that reverted you and I am trying to engage with you here. I understand that you think homeopathy works, and I assure you that if I saw scientifically rigorous evidence that homeopathy worked then I would too. I don't understand your reference to weight of evidence and "western" medicine. I also have a science PhD (I'm currently at a research conference in Iceland, where the constant sunlight is driving me mad while I'm trying to write my talk) - I'm only telling you this so you realise that I am a scientific person; this is not an attempt at argument from authority. Arguments have to stand or fall on their own merits. Why don't you post your ideas for studies on your talk page. To write the article, though, we have to rely on what is already published and out there. I also haven't said that homeopathy cannot work due to the extreme dilutions, I simply think it doesn't work due to the lack of compelling evidence after 200 years. If you want to post evidence on my talk page I'll read it, when I have time, and get back to you. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 22:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem we run into is that many (most?) published studies on positive results for homeopathic preparations (including EVERY study I have looked into) are critically flawed. You can reference studies all day long, but if they do not employ proper controls, they are worthless. Feel free to post what studies you have, but be ready to have them thoroughly excavated. I have just looked at the online citation index (web of science), which is an extremely thorough database of clinical and basic science literature, and have found only one paper which makes any mention of a study of homeopathy and pediatric eczema: Hughes et al, "The use of Alternative medicine in pediatric patients with atopic dermatitis", Pediatric Dermatology, 24(2), 2007, p 118. Unfortunately, the sample size was small (34 patients) and herbal remedies were also studied. The conclusions? No benefit from alternative medicine, although these treatments caused adverse effects in three cases (doubtless it was the herbal preps, not the homeopathic ones). We've been over this several times. There is simply no evidence that homeopathic preparations work. The published studies are weak, the CAM journals often have no peer review criteria and are often little more than editorial in nature. The studies which do make it into peer reviewed journals are still generally flawed and, when positive, show lackluster, non-reproducible results. The positive meta analyses are also regularly flawed, often authored as an exercise in gross incompetence or intentional deceit. Your arguments here, while obviously in earnest, are part of the problem with validating homeopathy: to this day it stands only on anecdotal evidence such as "I have seen 6 year olds cured of eczema". That sort of evidence got you burned at the stake in Puritanical times. Publish a proper, statistically and methodologically sound study on the matter, with real, non-partial, non-subjective endpoints and, not only will you grace the cover of the journal "Nature" (and likely win a Nobel prize) but you will also start to sway the editors of wikipedia.Puddin'head Wilson (talk) 16:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• See Homoeopathic versus conventional treatment of children with eczema: A comparative cohort study for a peer-reviewed journal report on the matter. The results found homeopathy to be comparable with conventional treatments in effectiveness. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Non placebo-controlled study with no control group, where the eczema symptoms are "assessed by patients or their parents" instead of being assessed by health professionals, and where it measures vague things like "quality of life" and "Disease-related quality of life" (and it's probably non-blinded, but the abstract does not make that clear). As Puddin says, you can present studies (positive or negative) but don't be surprised when they get picked apart by other editors on the talk page. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• I am not the least bit surprised. Please see No true Scotsman. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I asked this on my talk page and did not get a response. Many have said that placebo works on infants, animals and children. What studies have shown that? I am only aware of those that do not work on infants etc. I am surprised that an infant or animal has the mental ability to even know that they are being treated let alone "believe that they will get better and therefore get better". If there is a documented placebo works on them then it must not be placebo which gets really weird. Drpolich (talk) 15:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The effect is on the people reporting the improvement in the condition, as the patient cannot report themselves. If the owner of a dog, for example, expects it to get better with a sugar pill, then they will probably report that there has been some level of improvement. It does not rely on the animal even being aware it is being treated - although the extra attention lavished on the animal could also produce a beneficial effect. This is thought by many to be an extension of the placebo effect to the observers who believe there will be an improvement, and is taught about in veterinary school. It is also often termed observer bias, although in this case it is unintentional. The belief can also cause incorrect attribution of improvement to the placebo, when the cause was actually more mundane. With children, the effect is commonly exploited by mothers and is discussed under various names in many parenting books. So it is an effect on those observing the patient in this case. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 16:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Ses, where is your research to support your statements? Also, let me add, the changes seen in homeopathy are objective symptoms not just subjective symptoms. So there is no reporting. On my website I have photos and measurements to support the claims that it works on infants. How do you explain that? Drpolich (talk) 22:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Anybody can set up a website. The fact that your website exists is therefore not surprising and needs no further explanation. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

As for photographs and measurements posted on a website: without a large enough sample and a control group to show how the condition of infants who were treated with a placebo progressed, they won't provide any evidence that the intervention actually caused the improvement. Without a control group you're just relying on the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy again. Brunton (talk) 07:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The control is the fact that without treatment or even with helmeting the skull normally takes more than 4 months to change by 15mm (see website for details) and homeopathy did it in 1.5 months. Anyway, my main question is what research data supports the idea that infants are susceptible to placebo. As you have pointed out many times in homeopathy, we need a weight of evidence in research and no other information is relevant. Certainly, references in parenting books is not a reliable source without research. Ses, you surprise me. Drpolich (talk) 19:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

1. The placebo effect comes about from expectation of an outcome. As has been clarified several times above, the issue is not that an infant is cognizant of therapy, but that its parents are. Since it is the parents who are reporting on disease progress, their expectations and wishful thinking are very pertinent and prone to distort their assessment.

2. Hopefully having that finally clarified, the placebo effect needn't even be invoked for this discussion. After all, you have nice pictures to make your case obvious. It is very important that you realize that pictures of a baby's skull or fading eczema do not serve as proof that homeopathy works. In the eczema case, how do you know that the parents didn't change soap, or kleenex, or eliminate some other possible allergen? With a sample size of one, it is impossible to account for every possible variable which may have had an effect on that child. Not to mention the well known phenomenon of spontaneous remission. In the case of helmeting, 4 months for 15mm is an average' progression'. The most logical conclusion one can come to is that this particular child is simply ahead of the curve. It is absurd, and quite frankly irresponsible, to suggest that homeopathy, without a doubt, cured these children, or had any effect on them whatsoever. Strictly speaking, given the fact that there is no reason to believe that extreme dilutions will have any physiological effect whatsoever, it is just as likely that the speed of the car these children were driven home in was responsible for their improvements.

An idea to consolidate & trim...

I think the current article is a bit heavy on the mathematical arguments regarding the high dilutions. This contributes to the large size of the page and, no doubt, to the feelings of the pro-homeopathy side of an overly skeptical tone. I'd suggest a potentially simple change could help alleviate this:

Given that the swimming pool example, its large footnote, and and the dilution calculation is roughly 5kb, perhaps it would be best to move it into a "proof page" or appendix of sorts? I'm thinking of the type of thing they put in textbooks wherein a claim supported by complex evidence or a mathematical proof is simply cited in the general text as "see Appendix A" and Appendix A has the gory details and relevant citations. We could create a subpage, Homeopathy/Dilutions (or similar), that serves as an appendix, and leave simplified claims of "__ dilution is equivalent to __ ridiculously huge volume^{[reflink to appendix]}". This would allow us to maintain even the exact current text, but reduce the main article's size and (in my opinion) overload of mathematical gymnastics.

Any thoughts? — Scientizzle 19:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

How about leaving a summary in, and creating a subpage called homeopathy and dilution (like the homeopathy and allopathy page). This could cover succussion from the homeopaths perspective and have a serial/volume-to-volume dilution and discussion of the arguments (hormesis, Arndt-Schulz rule) and include the analogies + discussions that are too wordy to go in here. There is probably enough for a whole article. There has also been talk of a "Scientific criticisms of homeopathy" article, which could reduce the perceived non-neutrality (I think this article is more or less correct) by taking the bulk of the criticisms and science elsewhere, but leaving good summaries that point to the new articles. The main page could just have a few top quality references, while the bulk of the scientific evidence is moved (but still referenced). Obviously, the lead should still contain criticism (in about the same proportion in my opinion). But the homeopathy and dilutions page might be a good start. I hope I've not misunderstood your intention - I just think it's such an interesting old chestnut that always comes up in homeopathy discussions, and hence deserves it's own page (more than the homeopathic MM does at the moment!) SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk)

Or Homeopathic succusion and dilution maybe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk • contribs) 21:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that a separate "Scientific criticisms of homeopathy" article is currently unnecessary, and that general editing for clarity and brevity is currently the best option. My "appendix" proposal wouldn't (technically) create a new article, but allow finer detail of the moderately confusing and complex mathematical evaluations to exist (and improve) as a subordinate reference subpage, essentially. I'd envision something like this:

blah blah Homeopathic preparations often involve such extensive dilution that __ dilution is equivalent to __, and __ is equivalent to __.^[α]
[...]
References
[...]
α Please see Homeopathy/Dilutions for detailed explanations regarding the dilution calculations and their example equivalents.

This could replace a lot of the text in Homeopathy#Dilution_and_succussion without losing any content. I think it would be best if limited strictly to the mathematical sources and examples. — Scientizzle 22:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this discussion. What I don't understand is why that much material needs to be preserved in the first place. It's excessively repetitive (we have counted the "wow, that diluted!" metaphors above, so I won't do it here), and it only stresses the general prejudice that all homeopathic remedies are diluted to that point. E.g. the only remedy mentioned in that section is oscillococcinum 200C, which incorrectly (at least for Germany; especially the US situation may be different, of course) suggests that it is typical in the sense that most homeopathic remedies are diluted beyond the Avogadro limit and therefore obviously harmless. It looks as if 1X only occurs in the table for systematic reason, which is just not true. But of course, if we also discuss remedies like Arnica 1X, then we may have to explain that of course the homeopathy exception in pharmaceutical regulations (no clinical studies needed, no proof of efficacy needed) only applies to "high potencies", and that in most countries you can expect that efficacy of "low potency" remedies has been tested.

Currently what our readers will remember in the long term is 1) all reasonable scientists agree that homeopathy is crap, and 2) all homeopathic remedies are harmless because they are so diluted. The typical esoterically oriented reader would happily take Arsenicum album 1X after reading this article. --Hans Adler (talk) 07:21, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that you know of studies using low potency remedies that have demonstrated clinical efficacy when applied according to homeopathic principles? Das ist mir neu! --Art Carlson (talk) 07:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I confess that I am not sure about the exact details. But e.g. I am using a German homeopathic hayfever remedy which contains substances in 3X and 4X dilution and is sold with a clear indication of purpose, two reasons for it not to fall under the homeopathy exception. I am not 100% sure they didn't use another type of exception for this, but I will try to find out in the next couple of days. (I had once researched the regulations for Wikipedia, but I don't have the time to re-read them now.) --Hans Adler (talk) 08:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The UK recently (2006) introduced a new scheme ("The National Rules Scheme") for homoeopathic medicines which allows them to give indications of purpose (limited to minor conditions, which would include hayfever) without having undergone clinical trials, as long as the manufacturer provides data relating to their safety. This allows low potency remedies to be marketed without proving efficacy. It was implementing provisions of an EU directive (Directive 2001/83/EC), so it's possible that a similar scheme has been introduced in Germany. See the MHRA's Homoeopathic medicines page. Brunton (talk) 16:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clear pointer. [4] I wasn't going to look it up so soon, but you made it very easy. The homeopathy exception (Article 14) clearly doesn't apply: "Only homeopathic medicinal products which satisfy all of the following conditions may be subject to a special, simplified registration procedure: […] - no specific therapeutic indication appears on the labelling of the medicinal product or in any information relating thereto" (and it also requires a dilution of 4X or more). But they may be using the exception for traditional herbal medicinal products (Article 16a), with conditions including: "in particular the product proves not to be harmful in the specified conditions of use and the pharmacological effects or efficacy of the medicinal product are plausible on the basis of long-standing use and experience". In some member states the plausibility requirement probably excludes higher potencies. --Hans Adler (talk) 18:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Arsenicum album 1X? So it's 10% arsenic?! Good way to get arsenic poisoning, that. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I am quite sure it's not being marketed. :-) Not too surprisingly, even heroic medicine used it (externally) in a more diluted form, about 3X. [5] --Hans Adler (talk) 18:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Getting back on topic, I think this is a good idea but that there is enough information, and it is notable and interesting enough, to go in its own daughter article. With an adequate summary (including some quotes/discussion) left here, but with the mathematics and bulk of the analysis moved to it's own page. SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 16:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm against producing new articles when we're barely able to maintain the current number. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 16:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

How's that? The prevalence one is a bit messy, but the preparations, homeopathy and allopathy, water memory, serial dilutions and this page aren't bad. SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Today while going through WP NPOV i noyice this external link [6], i think active editors of this article must at least once go through the article at this link, so that scientic attitude is not sacrificed in the name of neutralityHallenrm (talk) 17:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

that article is at best slanted or at most only indicativa of the authors own opinion. while it makes some good points it is nto the law of wikipedia or the Interne tand there is no real obligation to stick to anything under than the actual ypollicy of WP:NPOV as outlined on the website itselfe intead of in external link ourticles. thank youf or your contributiaon. Smith Jones (talk) 00:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not move the dilution section to the article Serial dilution. MaxPont (talk) 05:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Or, go back to the original subpage idea, and then we can decide whether to spin it off properly (into own article), or move it to another article (serial dilution), leave it as a subpage, or put it back in the article. A summary should, of course, remain. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 09:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Feedback requested

I went ahead and enacted my vision above: see Homeopathy/Appendix: Dilutions, the new site of the info moved from the current version.

I feel this set of edits reduces the bulk of the main article, consolidates dilution information, and pares down some of the dilution-based criticism that has bothered people. What are your opinions? Thanks, — Scientizzle 17:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Wooot, that new page looks very good. I approve of this new page. However, the location is probably breaking Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles), it should probably be moved to something like Homeopathic dilution or something (it can be moved later to a better name depending of how its content evolves). Also, under "Dilution and succussion", you should separate part of the content on its own subsection called "mathetical basis" and add {{main|Homeopathic dilution}} under it, to make the link to the article clearer. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Definition

per WP:TALK
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
An interesting one: Homeopathy: water and 'intent'. I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't. -- Fyslee / talk 17:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Do you have a sauce source for that? (Apologies for the bad pun)--SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 17:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC) No apology needed. Occasional humor helps to lighten up heavy discussions. Only true believers take offense. Somehow they are allowed to declare their personal POV (which is allowed), but skeptics are not allowed (by them) to express their personal POV. Hmmm... -- Fyslee / talk 19:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC) Homeopathic Hollandaise sauce: One atom each of eggyolk, cream, lemon juice and salt. Boil in one ton of water. Eat while firmly believing it tastes like hollandaise sauce. Alternative recipe: one atom of BS. Boil in one ton of water. Tastes the same as homeopathic hollandaise sauce, has the same effects, and is perfectly harmless. ;-) -- Fyslee / talk 18:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC) thats al very well and good and but this page is forf discussing how to improve the article, not for making jokes about the articles subject. Please stay focussed. Smith Jones (talk) 18:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC) I agree with Smith Jones. This is inflammatory and will only create bad "vibes". MaxPont (talk) 06:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC) Yes, back to dealing seriously with the absurd.... This is nothing but a provocation. Fyslee should be topic banned for a week. MaxPont (talk) 06:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC) Enric found an article above which has this relevant quote: "What was being created, it seemed, was not a drug, but the idea of a drug, what an artist friend of mine calls "conceptual medicine." I thought, Welcome to homeopathy." - James Gorman is the author of "First Aid for Hypochondriacs." [7] -- Fyslee / talk 18:44, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Time article by Toufexis

I just found this Time article:

• IS HOMEOPATHY GOOD MEDICINE? - ANASTASIA TOUFEXIS

It mentions our topic banned editor User:DanaUllman and quotes Stephen Barrett. Even though it is from 1995, it is a RS for opinions, as well as possibly for scientific sources that can be sourced directly. -- Fyslee / talk 18:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Stephen Barrett is a very controversial figure. We should avoid refering to him in this article. There is an abundance of RS scientific sources with the same message that are much less controversial. MaxPont (talk) 06:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking at his wikipedia page he doesn't look that controversial. His only critics seem to be in the communities he criticises, while he is referenced as a good source by many leading mainstream science publications. I also think Time is a good source, so I don't see why this article can't be used. However, whether it is used depends on what it will be used for. Has anyone proposed any additions based on this article? I notice it's used on Dana Ullman's page to justify some peacockery. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 12:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The article could be included if we need yet another reference, which I doubt. But Barrett is a red flag for everyone who is critical of conventional medicine (look at the talk page archive on his article). Barrett has a fan club of followers here on Wikipedia that want to promote him wherever they can. There is no need to stir up more controversy than necessary here. We should rely on credible scientific sources in this article. Not a campaigner without scientific credentials. If we include the article I recommend that Barrett is not mentioned. Mentioning Barret will actually make this article less credible. MaxPont (talk) 15:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with MaxPont. And if it seems that Barrett is not that controversial, it is because of the whitewashing which had occurred on his article for the better part of two years (and seemingly still continues!). -- Levine2112 ^discuss 20:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It probably isn't a good idea to spread that argument to this page. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 21:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

All the more reason to leave it out of the article. ;-) -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

If it's a good addition, it should go in, with qualification as necessary. However, no addition has been suggested - it's just been brought here as an interesting source. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 21:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, "it's just been brought here as an interesting source," but it sure has brought out the usual and totally invalid arguments against using Barrett as a source: he's controversial. He has enemies who will do almost anything to keep his very notable opinions out of articles, no matter how well sourced; and there are editors who think that well-sourced, controversial opinions from notable individuals who are generally recognized by the mainstream as experts on the quackery aspects of some subjects happens to be the stuff which makes Wikipedia richer and which are not forbidden by any policy here. "I don't like it" seems to be the modus operandi for not quoting him. It's a pretty despicable agenda. Hmmm... Such unwikipedian attitudes need to be douched with a healthy dose of NPOV for a few decades. -- Fyslee / talk 06:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Please declare your interest. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

None. See ArbCom case. Will discuss further on my talk page if you wish, but not here as your remark is off-topic and a violation of both NPA and TAlK. -- Fyslee / talk 05:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Its better to use sources that eventually link to primary sources for those who wish to delve further. The Barrett article on aromatherapy, for example, did not cite any Pubmed summaries of the use of essential oils in mood alteration, wound care or antibacterial mouthrinses.Cayte (talk) 00:46, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Celebrity endorsements

moving on from the huge debate re: Steve Barett, I think that these statements could be use to "testifyIn print ads and TV and radio commercials, such celebrities as Lauren Hutton, Larry King, Rush Limbaugh and Lindsay Wagner testify to their effectiveness." that homeopathy is being popular. Smith Jones (talk) 23:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not just link to Dana's book and have done with it? Brunton (talk) 08:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No, we could use the fact that celebrities have been paid to promote these products to support the statement that homeopathic remedies have been advertised by celebrity endorsement. However, advertising and popularity are two different things - one is hoped to lead to the other by the people paying for the advertising, but it isn't a necessary connection. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:35, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Where doe s it say that Lauren Hutton, Larry King, Rush Limbaugh, and Lindsay Vagner has been paid to endorse homeopathy? Perhaps they feel that they got good results from it and have decided to endorse it based on their personal views on its merits? Or are you saying that no one can suport homeopathy without being bribed??? Smith Jones (talk) 23:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm just cynical about "celebrity endorsements" in advertisements, that's a general opinion, not derived any view about homeopathy. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

you are rite to be cynical but you need a source to add it in the article. you cant edit the article based on your personal prejudices agianst celerity endosements unless you have proof in the form of a surce[ that these celebrity endorsements werte coerced or extracted using money rewards rather. --:D---| Smith Jones (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think any normal person assumes that if a celebrity appears in an advert then they have been paid to do so. I therefore don't think you need to make an explicit statement, if you just mention that these are adverts people will draw their own, entirely correct conclusions. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to do that if your so confidence. I am sure that an equal mount of people will simply view these endorsements as a sincere faith on the part of these significants peoples that homeopathy is a valid and respectworthy scientific and mediscal discipline. Smith Jones (talk) 00:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't argue with that. ;) Tim Vickers (talk) 00:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that we should have a section of this sort which lists some of the famous people who use and espouse homeopathy. We should do this because it is typically what our reliable sources do - the associations are clearly notable, just as it is notable that Tom Cruise is a Scientologist, George Foreman promotes a grill or Richard Dawkins is an atheist. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

If this went anywhere, it should be in the "prevalence" article. However, celebrity endorsements should be assumed to be paid for unless a source states otherwise. Indeed, when celebrities make endorsements without taking a fee, or donate their fee to charity, the advertisers usually make a big deal about this. I also think reporting on celebrity endorsements is not suitable material for an encyclopaedia. Let's stick to scientifically rigorous population data (which is the attempt over on the prevalence article). --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 09:08, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I am sure that many celebrities use homeopathy because they believe it helps them. That's the kind of information that can add human interest to the treatment of a subject, but it's not core encyclopedic content. If a celebrity is well known for talking about homeopathy all the time, that could be mentioned in the article for that person. If it gets to the point that a considerable number of people know about homeopathy mainly because of a certain celebrity, then it's probably worth mentioning that particular celebrity at Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy. On the other hand, while I know nothing about the "celebrities" in question, or US television, at least in Germany I would be quite confident that when celebrities talk about a medical therapy in talk shows they are motivated by conviction, not money. People do have personal opinions, you know. Or are there TV ads or full-page newspaper ads for homeopathy in the US? (This would explain some of the attitudes here.) --Hans Adler (talk) 10:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. To clarify, I was talking about "celebrity endorsements" in advertisements, which are usually paid for, not opinion pieces in interviews etc. However, sometimes these can still be suspect when the person has an undisclosed (or non-obvious) interest or arrangement with a firm related to the products they endorse. This is true in all areas, not just CAM. For a recent example, look at the endorsement given to the recently collapsed Dore (dyslexia treatment) by Kenny Logan. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 11:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• I made a quick trawl for notable folk who use homeopathy and are commonly mentioned as such by RS covering homeopathy. They include:

• Ranjit Singh
• M.K.Gandhi
• British Royal Family - many members across several generations
• Pope Pious XII
• Bill Clinton
• Paul McCartney
• Mother Theresa

Some list of this sort should be included here because these people have been quite influential and so directly responsible for encouraging homeopathy in the UK, India and elsewhere. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

If these aren't already mentioned on the prevalence page, add them there with sources or take it to that talk page. This page is not the right place for this. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 11:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree this is not the right place even for these very notable people. I am all for mentioning one or two of them unobtrusively in a context where it fits. But a list is not appropriate, and even just mentioning one is likely to lead to more opposition than it's worth. --Hans Adler (talk) 12:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree and this list should be incoluded (in a differet format than a list) in the Regulation and prevlaece of homeopathy Smith Jones (talk) 12:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• Most changes made to this article result in opposition from the polarised camps of true-believers and debunkers. Such opposition must necessarily be confronted if we are to get anything done. The points in favour of such content are:

1. such examples commonly appear in general treatments of the topic (which is where I found them)
2. it is an important aspect of the history of this therapy
3. it provides good content for the general reader rather than the committed fanatic or medical professional. We are a general encyclopedia and so should not treat topics in a narrow way.

As for the Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy, I don't even want to go there as it sounds like a tedious geographical catalogue. VIPs such as Queen Elizabeth and Bill Clinton are known to the entire world and covered by global media and so belong here in this top level article. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but no. This is a general overview of the field, such very specific examples have no place in an overview. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:28, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The comparisons above to Tom Cruise and Scientology (and to George Foreman and his grill, and to Richard Dawkins and atheism) are apt, and can guide us here. In the first case, Cruise's relationship to Scientology is widely reported in the media, and (I believe) he voluntarily promotes Scientology as a belief which he espouses. It receives broad coverage. Asking the average person on the street about Cruise, one would probably hear that a) he's an actor, b) he's married to Katie Holmes, and c) he's a scientologist. In the case of George Foreman, his eponymous grill is certainly the best-marketed use of his name today. I'm sure that there are many millions of people below a certain age who have no idea he was a boxer. For Dawkins, atheism is a central part of his writing—the guy's most recent book was titled The God Delusion, after all.

When noting a celebrity's practices or interests, we ought be careful not to simply engage in star worship, or to attempt to buttress the credibility of a particular idea through association. In all honesty, now, is it fair to say that the practice of homeopathy is linked – in the public consciousness – to the names Bill Clinton or Mother Teresa in the same way that atheism is linked to Richard Dawkins? Are there celebrities for whom such a link does exist? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:28, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The presence of celebrendorsements does not make thie idea or policy of Homeopathy any more plasuible than it already is. It deos not enhance credibility or make it more scientifically valid. ALl it does is says that some celebrities feel personally that it is a benifeet to their lives and an improvement on their physical and mental holistic health. I see no difference between Bill Clinton and Pope Pirus XII and the Brtish Royal Family's dneorsements of Homeopathy than to the endorsement of atheism conferred by the scientist Rickard Dawkins. To imply that Clinton and Queen Elizabeth and Pope are all liars who into homeopathy for the money without any proof of that being so is fundamentally opposed to the concepts of WP:V that Wikipedia is built upon, the fundamental undermining of our culture and the downfall of the meaning of adding ONLY verifiable and well-cited/sourced assumptions onto the article instead of our own persojnal biased feelings either in favor of or in opposition to homeopathy, the Clinton administraiton, the royal family, Scientology, atheism, or the nature of celebrindorsements. Smith Jones (talk) 17:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No one has said or even implied that these people are liars. There is a difference between famous people using something, and advocating/lobbying for it. Richard Dawkins is not a good analogy for these people and their use of homeopathy; he is an advocate, like Dana Ullman is for homeopathy. The Royal Family do not campeign tirelessly for homeopathy - if they did then that would be notable (I wouldn't put it past Charles though!) You are right that celebrity endorsement has no bearing on homeopathy's scientific validity or credibility, hence this isn't a good place for it. TenOfAllTrades et al are right on this one. --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 17:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

it was implied above that the only reason the people who have publically endorsed homeopathy is because they were paid advertisers for it. I disagree. However, I dod agree that this info in disappropriate here, whih is why I have chosen to include in a related article that I will not name for fear that people ere will attempt to carry this debate over there and disrupt that article (which has developed far more expeditiously than this one) Smith Jones (talk) 17:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I think you're mistaken - the only person who has said this is you. People who advertise any product are usually paid, that is a general truism; I don't think it's been said that anyone who recommends homeopathy is in the pocket of BigHom (which is as ridiculous as saying all critics are if the pay of BigPharma!) :) Please point me to the post where this was said, if I'm wrong (on my talk page if you like, I'll then strike this and update if needed). I agree that this info is more relevant to the prevalence page, but even then it still has to be notable and fit into the article properly (no lists or simple enumerations, for example). --SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 18:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is not and should not be exclusively about the science or merits of homeopathy. It is a general article in a general encyclopaedia and so should cover all general aspects of the topic. These would include culture, economics, marketing, politics, fashion and whatever else is commonly found in general coverage of the topic. I shall be looking to broaden the article in this way and hope this may get us out of the curent single-issue rut. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

While I generally support the notion of a broader article that touches upon topics beyond the history, regulation, and efficacy of homeopathy, the specific inclusion of celebrity endorsements is, in my opinion, trivial and vapid. Naturally, a case-by-case evaluation would better determine if a particular promoter/marketing ploy/etc. has encyclopedic merit (the Royal Family is probably a specific example, given the apparent influence they've had in legality and popularity). A laundry list of supporters (not implying that is CW's suggested outcome) would also be a NPOV problem, I think. — Scientizzle 01:37, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

there is another betre article inlcluding this topic. That is where I have alreddy included all the celebrendorsements mentioned here. Smith Jones (talk) 01:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad that the information has – apparently – found an appropriate home. Smith Jones, could you let us know where that is? (We're all about collaborative editing on Wikipedia, remember?) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

It was added to Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy on this edit --Enric Naval (talk) 04:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Part of the misunderstanding above was that SJ used the term advertising when he meant endorsement in an editorial. There is a more recent Time article here that may be of interest: [8]--SesquipedalianVerbiage (talk) 07:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

that article does not seem to be as well-written as the previous one. Time's standards must be slipping in recent monthsSmith Jones (talk) 19:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Final decision in Homeopathy arbitration case

This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to homeopathy, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. User DanaUllman (talk · contribs) has been banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year. On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 00:34, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for takign the time to render a deicison regarding this case. personally I Feel that it would have sufficed to ban DanaUllman only from hoemopathy-related articles indefinitely, but your decision was based on the facts of the case and I hope it wll lead to a cooling of tentions regarding to this page that will eventually lead to a stabilizaiton of the article, a lifting of the probation, and eventually raising hre article back to FA or eve GA status. Smith Jones (talk) 01:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Systematic review of homeopathy representation in CAM journals, possible bias

I've been interested in how CAM views homeopathy (whether there is a faction within the group which is highly skeptical). The review suggests that much of CAM is pretty sympathetic to homeopathy. Minor corrections here. II | (t - c) 22:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Notes & references

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