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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 144.131.118.235 (talk) at 01:54, 20 September 2005. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Here We Go Again

I have reverted an edit made by Pwqn (diff) which asserted the same ridiculousness that saw Skyring banned from editing this article. Pwqn has a long edit history so I don't think s/he is a sockpuppet, but the edit is awfully similar.--File:Australia flag large.png Cyberjunkie TALK 9 July 2005 12:50 (UTC)

Pwqn has made this subsequent edit. I don't want to be involved in any controversy, and I will not revert this until others have commented. I am, however, very concerned - I don't want to see a return to the frustrations and viciousness that this issue has caused.--File:Australia flag large.png Cyberjunkie TALK 9 July 2005 13:08 (UTC)

I have reverted. This is clearly the same sort of content change that is discussed through all the archives and determined to be unnacceptable. If Pwqn has any problems, he/she can refer to the archives of this talk. Xtra 9 July 2005 14:22 (UTC)

Can someone ascertain by comparing the ISP numbers, or whatever it is, that Pwqn is not an alias of Skyring's? Adam 9 July 2005 15:17 (UTC)

We could request David Gerard to do so. But I don't know if we need do that yet, particularly given we haven't initiated a direct conversation with him/her. Perhaps all we need do is impress upon Pwqn that his/her contention will not be accepted. Also, I don't think Pwqn is actually a sockpuppet. Pwqn's contributions log shows that s/he began editing three days after Skyring's first edit, and apparently not in the same areas. However, Pwqn might be one of those editor's Skyring said he would find to present the same facts [1], in which case, if they persist, a block may be appropriate.--File:Australia flag large.png Cyberjunkie TALK 9 July 2005 16:14 (UTC)
I have advised Pwqn of the situation on his/her talk-page and requested that he/she comment here. --File:Australia flag large.png Cyberjunkie TALK 9 July 2005 16:26 (UTC)

Head of state section needs a rewrite.

The section on "head of state" needs a rewrite to make it neutral. Right now, it reads as if Wikipedia is advocating the view that the Queen alone is Australia's head of state, however this is controversial, since many people recognise the Governor-General as a de-facto head of state within the Commonwealth - see [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], etc. This is against the WP:NPOV policy: Wikipedia is not a forum for advocacy of any political view, cause or person. Note that Wikipedia does not say that evolution is a fact, only that 95% of scientists agree with it (and 99.8% of biologists). Pwqn 9 July 2005 17:17 (UTC)

At most, we should note in one sentence that some monarchists claim that the GG is head of state. That's it. Pwqn, please read the extremely volumninous (and occasionally rather heated) talk page discussion on the topic. --Robert Merkel 09:23, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The current situation

I will assume for the moment that Pwqn is a good-faith editor and not a Skyring clone, but I remain suspicious. For Pwqn's benefit, the situation with this question is this:

  • Matters of fact
  • The Constitution, for historical reasons, does not nominate a head of state - Australia was part of the British Empire in 1901 and shared a common head of state with the rest of the Empire. The Constitution contains numerous references to "the Queen" which in 1901 were obviously references to the Queen of the UK.
  • Since the Statute of Westminster, Australia has been a sovereign state, and must have a head of state. The High Court, the government and all other authorities now hold that the Queen of Australia is Australia's de jure head of state, and the references to the Queen in the Constitution should be read as references to the Queen of Australia, a title which was fornmally accorded to Elizabeth II in 1973.
  • Under the Constitution, the Queen's powers are almost entirely delegated to the Governor-General, and it is not disputed that the Governor-General acts as a de facto head of state.
  • Nevertheless, a de facto head of state is not a de jure head of state. The Governor-General is formally appointed by the Queen and takes an oath of alliegence to the Queen, as do government ministers, judges and other officials. The Governor-General himself has said that the Queen is Australia's head of state.
  • Matters of process
  • This question has been exhaustively argued for many weeks. The view of every editor who has taken part in this debate, except Skyring, is that the Queen is head of state, and that the article should state this as a matter of fact and not just of opinion. It should of course be noted that a small minority of people dissent from this view.
  • Skyring has been banned from editing this article as a result of his persistent refusal to accept the majority view of what this article should say.
  • This question having been exhaustively argued and decided by a near-unanimous opinion of those participating, there is absolutely no way this question can be re-opened and re-debated because a new editor has come along and wants to reopen the whole process. I suggest that Pwqn read the discussion pages if he or she is really interested in this subject. Alernatively, Pwqn should go and find one of the many Australian articles which need work, and do something useful for Wikipedia by editing some of them. In any case, Pwqn should note Skyring's fate. Adam 09:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Showcasing Adam Carr's Doublethink

From Talk:Citizens Electoral Council:

[] In Australia the Queen has no influence whatever, and plays no constitutional or political role whatever. It is true that in theory the Governor-General represents "the Crown" (which is a legal entity separate from the Queen's person), but in practice he is an independent ceremonial head of state. Kerr's dismissal of Whitlam was a drama played out entirely in the context of Australian domestic politics, and the Queen knew nothing about it until after the event. Even if she had, she could and would have done nothing about it. She has no independent power to dismiss the Governor-General or tell him what to do or not do. []

— Adam Carr, 13 October 2004 (emphasis added)
The question of what powers the Queen wields, how much influence she has over Australian domestic politics, and whether or not she can dismiss a Prime Minister are *entirely* irrelevant to her position as Australia's official head of state. This remains the case, no matter how many Skyring clones wish to obfusticate this point. (emphasis added). Slac speak up! 22:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You can usually tell Skyring's clones by their ignorance of constitutional law and legal principles, and determination to prove their point by quoting information that at best is irrelevant (as here), or at worst quote information that says the exact opposite of what they think it says . Either someone is breeding them, creating them, or they are him under false names. In any case, as per Wikipedia decision both the clones have been blocked, and all other of his 'personalities' that appear will suffer the same fate. And everytime he creates another, the date of his suspension moves. He really must think we are a shower of fools not to spot his little games. FearÉIREANNFile:Tricolour.gifFile:Animated-union-jack-01.gif SOLIDARITY WITH THE PEOPLE OF LONDON\(caint) 23:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC) [reply]

It may be worth doing a sockpuppet check on User:Kangaroopedia to check whether Skyring has violated his ban. I still think Pwqn is a bona fide editor, though, perhaps one coerced by Skyring (as he threatened to do). Further to that point, Skyring has made note of the events unfolding here (though, thankfully, he cannot partake).--File:Australia flag large.png Cyberjunkie TALK 11:05, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Does Skyring's ban on editing this article include a ban on participating in its Talk page? Adam 11:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
He's banned from editing all pages for 2 months, following that he is banned from editing in this area for a year, I assume that the ruling includes talk pages.--nixie 11:32, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I would assume so also. It would defy logic if he were permitted to, given the talk-page is where he was most frustrating. --File:Australia flag large.png Cyberjunkie TALK 11:37, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little puzzled as to how the above quote from something I wrote last October can be said to show "doublethink." It is completely consistent with what I wrote yesterday. Of course the Governor-General is "in practice an independent ceremonial head of state." As I wrote yesterday, "it is not disputed that the Governor-General acts as a de facto head of state." The article should and does say that. But as I also wrote, the Governor-General is not a de jure head of state, which is what this discussion is about. (SOLIDARITY WITH THE PEOPLE OF LONDON indeed). Adam 00:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]


vote

Reference: Talk:Government_of_Australia/Archive_6#Vote_on_contents_of_Government_of_Australia

  • Agree with 1, 2 and 3. And also with a), b) and c) but I think that it would be alright to state that is an incorrect view that the Governor General is the head of state in the article. this is not saying that the GG is head of state, it is saying that sometimes the GG is incorrectly attributed as being the head of state. The first google result I found when typing "Australian Head of state" was this page [17] "Who is Australia's head of state".Astrokey44 07:15, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I though this was going to be resolved by arbitration rather than popular vote. I think I have lost track of the results of arbitration since it was tied up with banning user Skyring as well.--AYArktos 09:37, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It has been resolved. This issue is outdated, although Astrokey is welcome to express his opinion. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 12:00, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's just been opened up again. I quote from Jimbo Wales on WP:NPOV
  • If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
  • If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
  • If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it's true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not (see Wikipedia:Flat earth problem).
The Prime Minister, senior ministers, Simon Crean as Opposition Leader, major daily newspapers, a whole bunch of other folk have all made public statements saying that the Governor-General is the head of state. That's a fact, easily demonstrated. This view deserves inclusion and it is stupid to vote on it here; no amount of discussion or voting on this page can possibly alter the views already expressed by prominent adherents. In Jimbo's own words, it is "a viewpoint held by a significant minority".
I think it's quite clear:
  • Majority opinion = Queen is head of state
  • Minority opinion = Governor-General is head of state
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.238.244.56 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of law, the Queen is Head of State and the Governor General is merely her representative. Just because someone doesn't agree with a legal definition (if they indeed do not) does not make their opinion worth mentioning here. The Governor General is at most a de facto Head of State, but that itself would be a bit of a stretch. Xtra 23:24, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's your opinion. The Prime Minister has a different one. Clearly there is a diversity of opinion, and "prominent adherents" (as Jimbo puts it) are easily found to support views opposed to your own. If you don't want the article to reflect NPOV principles, may I ask why?

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