Talk:Sarah Palin

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Article incorrectly infers Palin's ethics complaint against Renkes was the major factor in his resignation

In fact, the Renkes scandal was already months old by the time Palin filed her ethics complaint against Renkes in December 2004. Gov. Murkowski had two months prior appointed his own investigator (Robert Bundy) into the matter, and a large volume of damning information had already been uncovered by public records requests from the press (http://www.adn.com/news/government/renkes/story/42104.html). Bundy finished his report January 26, 2005. Murkowski reprimanded Renkes January 29th, 2005. And Renkes resigned February 6, 2005 (http://www.adn.com/news/government/renkes/story/42125.html). The unfinshed ethics complaint investigation, now largely moot, was settled a month later. Joeljunk (talk) 19:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Palin also filed ethics complaint against *Murkowski* in 2005 over Renkes matter

http://www.adn.com/news/government/renkes/story/42108.html Joeljunk (talk) 19:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The Bristol Palin Part of the Main Article Ignores the Fact that Bristol's Pregnancy Was Only Announced in Response to Vicious Internet Rumors

Sarah Palin did not suddenly decided to make her daughter of 17 an issue. Vicious Internet rumors falsely claimed that Sarah was claiming the daughter's baby. Only to squelch those rumors was the announcement about Bristol made. While the press was putting Bristol Palin on the front page of newspapers, there was no mention whatever of any of Biden's kids when they were 17, and the press failed to investigate rumors which had persisted since October 2007 that John Edwards was having an affair. As Obama and Biden correctly noted, children are off limits. The press indeed left the children of Democrats off limits, but not the children of Republicans, thereby leaving the press wide open to charges of partisan bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.153.18 (talk) 16:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree about Gov. Palin not intending to make her daughter an issue, but I think there was a slight correction. I think what touched that off was that some blogger claimed that Bristol was the actual mother of Trig (the baby suffering from Down's Syndrome). WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 16:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Yartett (talk) 14:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)First entry here folks. ;-) The pregnancy is an issue given that Sarah Palin is a so-con who is into abstinence sex-ed, and that she might not have told McCain.

Actually, its appropriate for Wikipedia because the media made it an issue. Her political stands are irrelevant to Wikipedia. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Dispute #1: Alaskan Independence Party

1. The article currently says nothing about Palin's tangential association with the Alaskan Independence Party, but the mainstream news media has analysed the issue. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

We have had lengthy discussions about this material, and while no strong consensus was reached we did seem to be leaning toward not including the (minimal) factual information as not being proven to have any relevance to Palin's career/life.

We don't get to decide; the frenzy of mainstream coverage says it's notable. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 01:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually we do get to decide to an extent. We aren't a news source, so what is relevant for their purposes is not necessarily relevant to ours. This page is supposed to be a biography, so things should be relevant to the subject's life for inclusion. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

We shouldn't be looking to evaluate topics, but edits. For example, we ought to talk about the weight of someone's treatment of Palin's AIS associations, the edit's verifiability, etc.. If we start trying to evaluate topics, it descends quickly (super fast) into mob rule, utter disregard of argumentation. The Wiki-edit guidelines exist for a reason; we should use them, and allow ourselves to be constrained by them. Catuskoti (talk) 10:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

There was no lean toward excluding the info. In fact, it appeared to be 3 to 2 in favor of including it. The only objection to a section on Palin links to the AIP is that they are allegedly not relevant. See discussion above. But the fact that they have gotten so much media and public attention shows they are relevant to many people. Since the items are all factual and well sourced, they should be included. -Pulsifer (author of the AIP links section that was deleted).

There was previously a single sentence in the article about her connection to the AIP. That was sufficient. It's now gone. It could be put back. Anything beyond that is merely an attempt to paint her as a secessionist, which is an absurd idea at this point. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I support a single sentence, preferably in the 2008 campaign section, saying that she has not been a member of the AIP, citing to Mother Jones and whatever other sources people think are important. As Bugs said, anything beyond that is merely an attempt to paint her as a secessionist, which is an absurd idea at this point.Ferrylodge (talk) 01:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to such a sentence. (Nor would I object to its exclusion.) That she was never a member is the one fact that seems well established and possibly relevant. All other points are either debated or irrelevant. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I think there should be a single sentence that mentions her attending the convention in 2000, Todd previously being a member and her video tape address for the AIP 2008 convention. zredsox (talk) 01:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

There should also at minimum be a mention that her husband Todd, at member of the AIP, was the treasurer of her 1999 mayoral campaign. -Pulsifer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pulsifer (talk • contribs) 01:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

One sentence about the AIP convention sounds about right. Coemgenus 01:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

This is highly irrelevant to the life of Palin as a whole and her BLP and also previous consensus seemed to be to not include it.Hobartimus (talk) 01:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Link to previous consensus? I have been watching this page for days and must have missed it... zredsox (talk) 02:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

IMO, the 2008 convention video is the LEAST relevant of all the facts and "facts" --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The AIM thing has been widely reported by RS. The problem is decideing what exactly to write.Geni 02:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I added proposed text to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sarah_Palin#Palin_links_to_AIP

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There is no controversy that Palin had links to AIP, including her husband's membership. This is different than claiming she was a member. The links are well documented and certainly relevant. This section should remain available to readers as a well-documented source of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pulsifer (talk • contribs) 23:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

This has already been extensively discussed above. Kelly ^hi! 23:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Obviously not enough as it was removed when it seemed quite clear that the consensus was to have at least a mention of this in the biography. zredsox (talk) 01:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Kelly, I have read the complete discussion above. It focuses primarily on her husband Todd's membership in AIP, which was in the end deemed relevant. Similarly, the section I added documents other links to the AIP. None of them were discussed above, and certainly they are all relevant. Your stated reason for deleting the section was that it had been "debunked". This is not the case. All of the items are both true and well sourced. It appears you are trying to hide behind the above discussion to prevent relevant information from being added to the entry. If you have any issue with the truth or relevance of any of the statements, please identify the specific statements. -Pulsifer

Kelly, you keep saying that, but what is being posted is simply *not* contradicted anywhere above. These are WP:V-referenced statements. -- Rei (talk) 23:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Exactly what is the purpose of including all this information on the AIP, as opposed to other organizations, like the Better Business Bureau or the Girl Scouts of America? Kelly ^hi! 23:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Does this straw man even need to be dignified with a response? No, we don't need lot of info about the AIP here. But pretending that the AIP thing isn't a huge scandal is just plain ridiculous. It's real, it's WP:V, it's WP:N, and thus, it can go into Wikipedia. By the book, if those constraints are correct, the only question is *where* it can go (there's no right for WP:N things to go into any particular article; it simply has the right to go into Wikipedia).

And seriously, cut it with the "debunked" stuff. We've all read the previous discussions. Nothing is debunked. If you think something is debunked, cite a source. -- Rei (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Clearly many people think it is relevant because it is all over the news. When links to those other organizations also become news items, they can also be added, but that is not the issue. -Pulsifer

• Some mention MUST be made of the AIP material, it is all over the news. Censoring it on Wikipedia is pointless now. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 23:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
  • ZOMG censorship...please see the extensive discussions we've already have. It's a guilt-by-association attempt that has already been debunked. Kelly ^hi! 23:45, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
    • Kelly: first you said "debunked", now you are saying "guilt by association". Regardless, there is no guilt by association. It is simply information. There's no claim that she is guilty of anything. -Pulsifer

(undent)It's true that Palin had well-documented links to the AIP. However, those well-documented links are so tenuous as to not be notable here in this article, except maybe a brief mention in the campaign section that her membership was debunked by Mother Jones. I feel like the tenuous links to AIP are being used not to give a neutral description of the subject, but rather to pulverize the subject.

By the way, Pulsifer, are you any relation to this guy? Ferrylodge (talk) 23:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

If you believe the links are tenuous, that is all the more reason they should be included in the article. This allows readers to judge for themselves whether the AIP association is substantial or not, and if they decide they are tenuous, it would prove the point that there should be no controversy. -Pulsifer

There is *no* tenousness here. Her husband *was* a member for seven years. She *did* go to at least one convention, possibly two. She *did* record a message telling them to "keep up the good work" this year. The McCain campaign spokesman *did* sidestep a question as to whether she wants a vote on secession. These aren't up for debate; they're confirmed. And they are huge issues, as made clear by the explosion of controversy. -- Rei (talk) 00:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

And her husband, a member of AIP, was the treasurer of her mayoral campaign. -Pulsifer

Palin also has tenuous links to the Democratic Party. Shall we create a section about that too? Her mother-in-law is a Democrat, so obviously Sarah Palin's Republican schtick is a complete charade, right?[1]Ferrylodge (talk) 00:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, the is a straw man. When Palin's links to these other organizations become so important to people that they are mentioned in the news, then we can add them. -Pulsifer

This comes up quite often, someone could add something to the FAQ about it. Hobartimus (talk) 00:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not a straw man at all. Much ink has been spilled about Palin's willingness to cross the aisle and work with Democrats, and to encourage bipartisanship in her administartion. Smells like a Democrat to me, and I think we need a new section about her ties to the Democratic Party.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

So let's get the facts. One, a party official said she was a once a member, but had to recant when proven wrong. Two, she may have attended one or two party conventions. Three, she sent a welcome video to their convention. Four, her husband appears to have been a member in the past, later re-registered as Independent. So form these 4 facts, you think a 4000 character section, attempting to tie every possible thing she has said in the last 10 years into AIP somehow is justified. Apparently, this isn't original research in any way and is based on the length is the single most important part of her entire career, regardless that it had never even come up before 2-3 days ago? Is that an accurate summary of your position? --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

It is irrelevant to your conclusions, but for the record the various assertions have included her being present at up to three conventions: 1994, 2000, and 2006. Dragons flight (talk) 00:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The only argument that has been made is that these items are allegedly not relevant. But if half of the population feels they are relevant, and half of the population feels they are not, then the material should be included so that readers can decide for themselves. Unless someone can come up with an argument other than relevance, I am going to add the material back in. -Pulsifer

Good luck with that. Coemgenus 00:34, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Palin has "links" to the Alaska Independent Party. The only relevancy in trying to include this is to suggest through guilt by association that Palin is an extremist who favors succession of Alaska from the Union. This argument started when officials of the AIP claimed Governor Palin had once been a member of the party. These claims have since been withdrawn, and Sarah Palin's voter registration records showing that she has been registered as a Republican since 1982 have appeared. So editors wanting to include this material have fallen back on circumstantial facts. 1) In her capacity as Governor she sent a video to the 2008 convention where she refers to "your party" in the first sentence, 2) in her capacity as Mayor she attended the 2000 convention, and 3) her husband declared AIP preference for several years in his voter registration. Using WP:SYNTH editors claim that these three facts prove that Governor Palin has ties to the AIP. They do no such thing. This is not material that is relevant to the biography of Sarah Palin. It is an attempt to imply guilt by association when there is no association. Inclusion of this material violates WP:BLP, WP:NPOV and WP:SYNTH.--Paul (talk) 12:26, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

This is what I propose adding. It accurately describes the controversy which has received much attention in the press; it correctly describes that Palin has never been a member of AKIP, but does accurately describe her association with AKIP and is properly sourced and written from a neutral point of view. It violates none of the rules that Paul has cited. Its seems some people at intent on censoring facts, but that is a violation of wikipedia rules. -Pulsifer

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The Alaskan Independence Party (AKIP) is an Alaskan political party that calls for a vote on the secession of Alaska from the United States. The motto of the AKIP is "Alaska First - Alaska Always".

On September 1, ABC News reported that Sarah Palin had been a member of AKIP. The sources for this story later retracted these claims, and the Alaskan Division of Elections confirmed that Palin has always been registered Republican.

Palin's husband Todd however was a registered member of AKIP from 1995 to 2002, and served as the Treasurer of Palin's 1999 mayoral campaign. The McCain campaign admits Palin attended the 2000 AKIP convention, and as governor, Palin sent a video address to the 2008 AKIP convention. In addition, two AKIP members recall seeing Palin at the 1994 AKIP convention, although Palin denies attending.

• I disagree with this proposed edit as 1st) Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and 2nd) it is a classic case of "when did you stop beating your wife?" Let's start with Wikipedia is not a newspaper.

  On September 1, ABC News reported that Sarah Palin had been a member of AKIP. The sources for this story later retracted these claims, and the Alaskan Division of Elections confirmed that Palin has always been registered Republican.

  This paragraph contains anti-matter (the incorrect news report) and matter (finally finding the truth which is that the report was false). When you add them together they create a big bang but leave nothing behind. In the discussion of the National Enquirer rumor (below) the consensus is to wait to see if the rumor is true or not. If true, it will be added, if not it will be ignored. That is what should have happened here, but the ABC claim was inserted as soon as it came out, and the truth only came out a day or two later. It should never have been in the article when it was little more than a politically-charged hit, and now that we know it is false, it is not appropriate to add it.

Second there's "when did you stop beating your wife?"

Palin's husband Todd however was a registered member of AKIP from 1995 to 2002, and served as the Treasurer of Palin's 1999 mayoral campaign. and as governor, Palin sent a video address to the 2008 AKIP convention. In addition, two AKIP members recall seeing Palin at the 1994 AKIP convention, although Palin denies attending.

Palin's husband is not Palin, and what is the purpose of sneaking in the fact that he was her campaign finance manager in 1999 other than to insinuate that because a family member with AKIP ties was active in her campaign, she must "have ties to AKIP"? This is clearly POV-pushing and it is also clear WP:SYNTH. Next is mentioning that two AKIP members recall seeing her at the convention 18 years ago. She denies it. I don't know, maybe she was there to get some grocery money from Todd, or to go out to dinner with him. It certainly doesn't prove any "ties to AKIP" and is either trival or POV-pushing. As I said "when did you stop beating your wife?"

And because of the reasons above, the following isn't needed at all.

The Alaskan Independence Party (AKIP) is an Alaskan political party that calls for a vote on the secession of Alaska from the United States. The motto of the AKIP is "Alaska First - Alaska Always".

I strongly object to this proposed edit for all the reasons above and because it gives undue weight by virtue of its length. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:19, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Object as well. Serious undue weight for this "incident". Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 18:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. Then I propose deleted the 2nd para and the sentence about 1994, leaving the following. This simply states the facts and let's the reader decide the importance. -Pulsifer

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Proposal: The Alaskan Independence Party (AKIP) is an Alaskan political party that calls for a vote on the secession of Alaska from the United States. Its motto is "Alaska First - Alaska Always". Palin's husband Todd was a registered member of AKIP from 1995 to 2002, and served as the Treasurer of Palin's 1999 mayoral campaign. Sarah Palin herself has always been registered Republican. She attended the 2000 AKIP convention, and as governor, sent a video address to the 2008 AKIP convention.

I disagree with this insertion. First off, it cites an abcnews blog, and youtube. It is also compiling a lot of stuff together that if it were true, should be available as being convered in a single very reliable source. Based on the fact that you need so many sources of questionale reliablility to make the point appears to be a case of WP:SYNTH. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 18:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)SYNTH

The multiple sources were included because otherwise you would be arguing that the information was not sufficiently sourced. Most of the sources contain the entire story. This is the first time I have heard an attempt to exclude information because it had too many references. The facts stated are NOT IN DISPUTE, by anyone, and therefore the alleged "questionable reliability" of the sources is a red-herring. The material also does not state any conclusion, it simply lists facts, and therefore WP:SYNTH does not apply. The YouTube video is the actual video Palin sent to the 2008 AKIP convention. It is also mentioned in the other sources. There is no way it can possibly be deemed to be unreliable, and therefore the caution about self-published sources that generally applies to YouTube links does not apply to this video. The reference to the YouTube video of Palin's address is also appropriate as link the reader can follow if they are interested in the content of the video. -Pulsifer

I think this is probably a bit too much weight, not to mention that it is clearly trying to POV push the AIP views onto Palin. I think the more relevant fact is her husband's participation, which if you can imagine hypothetical analogies (if Michelle Obama was Green party), is more than just trivial. I propose the following insertion in the family section right after "...commercial fishing business."

Proposal:

He was also a registered member of Alaskan Independence Party (AKIP) from 1995 to 2002; while Palin has always been a registered Republican, she attended the 2000 AKIP convention, and as governor, sent a video address to the 2008 AKIP convention.

I don't have all the refs from above so they'd have to be chosen. This retains the essential facts, which are more than notable through all the media coverage, but doesn't impose or imply any viewpoints of Palin's. (Update: I suggest using this NYT article as the source of the sentence, as all relevant info is included) Joshdboz (talk) 19:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

While it is better being wittled down into a smaller (single sentence), it also shows how little subtance is involved with such assertions. The article is about her, not her husband (or daughters). Overall, I do not see the significance of it? As a governor I am sure she did lots of stuff with the state of alaska, should we include a blurb for every speech or video she sent to any organization (outside of her party)? I think this is a sever stretch to be included for inclusion. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 19:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

 Declined It is clear that at the present time there is no consensus supporting any version of the edit proposed here. If such a consensus forms in the future, and is clearly stable, then it will be time to use the {{edit protected}} template. GRBerry 20:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

If you read this entire section you will find many editors who have stated that some mention should/could be included, though nothing was resolved. I have thus removed your "declined" tag until further discussion. As for your comments Chris, it may be a minor detail in her political life, but the amount of media coverage it has received is anything but minor. Now, one could rightly say that we shouldn't allow the media to run our agenda here; on the other hand, we rely on them to determine notability, and these facts, which have been the soul subjects of articles in many top newspapers, are much more notable than other details of her life. Joshdboz (talk) 21:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I have restored my own comment to the state I left it in. I declined to implement the edit protected request. The text makes it clear that such declining was a decision as of that time and if there is consensus in the future you would be free to make the request again. GRBerry 13:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

There was no edit protect request. There was a proposal looking for comment. Joshdboz (talk) 14:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

There was indeed an edit protected request. I converted it from {{edit protected}} to {{tl|edit protected}} (the latter of which displays as the former, the former of which displays as one of those beige-orange boxes) at the time I declined it. It is between Paul.h's comment of 12:26, 4 September 2008 (UTC) and Pulsifer's undated comment immediately below that. Properly used, that template is to request an admin to make the edit immediately - which is why the template says "please discuss it on the protected page's talk page before using this template." [emphasis in original] GRBerry 14:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

As it is is now noted without dispute that Sarah Palin attended the AIP meeting in 2006 and created a video this does deserve mention. If other sources of involvment are identified they should be reviewed on a case by case bases. Proposal from the AIP Website "Sarah Palin's husband Todd Palin was a member of the Alaskin Independant party. Sarah appeared at the AIP Convention in 2006. Sarah sent a welcoming DVD to the membership at the 2008 AIP statewide convention." http://www.akip.org/090308.html Sitedown (talk) 15:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Palin was campaigning for governor in 2006 and visited the convention as part of the campaign, and as had been said many times, sent the video to the 2008 convention in her role as governor (and no doubt vote prospector). I would like to know what the rationale for including this material in this article. Please note: "There are verifiable sources for these facts" is not the answer I am looking for. I am curious as to how editors think this adds to the narrative of Sarah Palin's biography. What does it show about her? If you had to write a sentence after your suggested insert of this info that drew a conclusion, what would you write? Thanks!--Paul (talk) 16:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Paul, The large number of requests to include or not include this information that has been verified as fact demonstrates there is a level of importance associated with it. As the general public believe this is an important part of her history we have no choice but to include the verified fact in her biography. The only alternative would of course be to make a conscious decision and censor information that the public believes is important and I am not sure anyone believes censorship is the responsabilaty of wikipedia. Sitedown (talk) 17:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Censorship? No one is advocating censorship here. Certainly you aren't accusing anyone of censorship, are you? You may think that there is a wikipedia policy proscribing censorship, but there isn't. However, there are policies on verifiability, reliable sources, maintaining a neutral point of view, proscribing synthesizing opinions out of unrelated facts, and being especially careful and sensitive about accuracy and not making conjectural interpretations or implications when editing biographies of living persions. Wikipedia is not a free-for-all. Just because something is verifiable does not mean it has a free pass into an article.

The proposals to include AKIP info in the article have never achieved consensus because they aren't NPOV. First some editors tried to establish that Palin was a former member of the AKIP. Later proposals put together a bunch of unrelated facts in an attempt to establish that Palin "has ties to AKIP." Simply put, the sources provided do not back that up. I'm perfectly willing to put something in the article but it needs to be factual with a neutral point of view, which none of the prior proposals have been.

The only "fact" that is indisputable is that Palin was reported as having been a member of AKIP, but that isn't true. Beyond that we get into NPOV and the relevancy of the "facts" to this biography.--Paul (talk) 20:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

"I'm perfectly willing to put something in the article but it needs to be factual with a neutral point of view Paul.h" Thanks Paul Thats great. I will place a request to craft the appropriate entry and ask for submision based on the facts available. Sitedown (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

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AKIP Inclusion request

Please assist in creating a single sentence with the appropriate minimal and verifiable facts from reliable sources of Sarah Palin direct interactions with the AKIP.

{{editprotected}} As there has been no objections raised I would suggest the following for submision. Sitedown (talk) 02:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Sarah attended the Alaskan Independence Party convention in 2006 and sent a welcome movie to the attendees of the 2008 AKIP statewide convention.[2] Sitedown (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

N Edit declined. There is currently no consensus for the suggested edit. Please use {{editprotect}} only after a consensus for a change in the article has been achieved (see CAT:PER). The edit request is otherwise not actionable. Also, we don't refer to the subjects of our articles by their first name.  Sandstein  05:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sandstien, I made a proposal and recieved no objection after 6 hours. Could you please provide the documented and approved process to obtain concensus. Your objection to using the first name is easily fixed. Are there any other issue or concerns. ? Sitedown (talk) 12:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello. To request an edit, please open a new subsection and start it off with a specific, WP:MOS-compliant proposal. If there is consensus to include it after 24 hours or so (i.e., no opposition or substantial net support), then you may use {{editprotect}} at the bottom of your subsection and an admin will evaluate the request.  Sandstein  21:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

The fact that there is so much controversy both for an against the exclusion or inclusion of this information then it is obviously important. I believe if there is documented evidence of Sarah Palin attending multiple events for the AIP this should be noted as this I believe is simply a documented biography of noteworthy facts. {99.228.151.16 (talk) 22:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)}

Just as a BTW, there is a claim near the beginning of this topic claiming that it is significant because of the frenzy of media attention it is receiving. A query on Google Trends returns the following: Google Trends: Palin "alaska independence party" - do not have enough search volume to show graphs.--Paul (talk) 23:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Try a Google News search for "Sarah Palin" "Alaskan Independence Party". WP:NPOV says "Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves," and I don't see how anyone can claim that it is not a fact that the Palins' links with the Alaskan Independence Party have been the subject of extensive media coverage worldwide, and that it is a campaign issue that deserves mention. --Stormie (talk) 01:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The only "fact" about this "campaign issue" is that Palin does not have any ties to the AKIP even though it has been falsely reported that she did. Since there's nothing about this in the article at the moment, and in the interest of closing this dispute, I propose using an update version of Ferrylodge's sentence as follows:

Members of the of the Alaskan Independence Party suggested that Palin was a member at some point, but have since retracted that claim.

This mentions Palin and AKIP and uses as a source for the correction, the same ABC source that was used for the original incorrect charge.--Paul (talk) 06:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The fact Palin attended multiple conventions either in person or via video raises controversy and is relavent to her biography. Sitedown (talk) 11:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see much of a controversy. I think it'd be a great thing if every governor of every state sent welcome messages to the conventions of the other major parties in their states. What I think is problematic here is that after a flare up of media attention, this is now a dead story, especially since the veracity of the claims has since come under a cloud. I think including it here is just not biographical, and would place wp:undue on the matter.   user:j    (aka justen)   02:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

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AKIP Inclusion Proposal For Review

Proposed Palin attended the Alaskan Independence Party convention in 2006 and sent a welcome movie to the attendees of the 2008 AKIP statewide convention.[3] Sitedown (talk) 12:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Support If you support this with minor modifications please included the modified version you would support.

1. I support this text, but would like additional material, as shown in my addition to Talk:Sarah Palin/sandbox. --Zeamays (talk) 15:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)--Zeamays (talk) 15:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

   I think the idea of a sandbox is a bad idea, just opening up another avenue for edit warring and potential libel. Could you please move your suggestion here and ask an admin to remove that page?--Paul (talk) 16:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

   It wasn't my idea. I saw a note on this pages asking to place proposals for edits via admins to be placed ion the sandbox. --Zeamays (talk) 16:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)--Zeamays (talk) 16:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

2. She not only attended, she was a member, and only switched her party affiliation when she ran for governer, according to Dexter Clark in this video from last year (jump to 6:00).

Oppose If you oppose please either include a supported version or state your reason for not including anything in relation to the AKIP

1. It's a McCarthyistic attempt to prove "guilt by association" with a fringe party which is not even accused of doing anything illegal, but only of having a fringe viewpoint - and with no evidence that Palin herself agrees with that viewpoint. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

   The simple fact that multiple meetings were attended by her makes this worth mentioning. There is no reason to try to prove guilt by association but if you believe a statement to be added in relation the rumors then please provide a suggestion. 99.228.151.16 (talk) 17:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

2. Are people still pushing the debunked "secessionist" meme? I thought even dKos had given up on flogging that. But Bugs is correct - there's no need to give undue weight to a trivial relationship with one particular group. As governor, she attended and greeted many organizations, from the Better Business Bureau to the Girl Scouts of America. Kelly ^hi! 15:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

   Even if the rumors had never been raised this still warrants a mention. If she has attended multiple conventions for other parties I beleive this would also deserve a mention. 99.228.151.16 (talk) 17:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

3. It might have had some relevance when it was suspected that Palin had once been a member, but since that has been debunked, the only reason for inclusion would be to imply "guilt by association." She attended the 2006 convention while campaigning for Governor, and sent a welcome video to the 2008 convention in her capacity as Governor. And even though it isn't mentioned above, she attended the 2000 convention in her capacity as mayor of Wasilla. Inclusion of the proposed sentence violates NPOV and UNDUE WEIGHT.--Paul (talk) 15:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

   If a governor attends multiple conventions for a seperatist group and submits a video then it is worth a mention. I recall you previously agreed that a statement could be included. 99.228.151.16 (talk) 17:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

   Rebuttal to 1-3: This is well-documented material. AN AIP leader can be seen on video at their convention stating that their aim is to "infiltrate" other political parties, so this is relevant. My proposed addition doesn't mention "secessionist". More importantly, she expressed support of AIP aims in the video. Did she also send a video to the Democratic Party Convention that year supporting their aims? Wikipedia policy for Well-known public figures reads, "If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." [emphasis mine] --Zeamays (talk) 16:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

   Have you watched the video? "Your party plays an important role in our state's politics. I've always said that competition is so good. And that applies to political parties as well." Very sinister!--Paul (talk) 04:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

4. As I said above, the story is dead. If she had been a member of the party, I think there would be something here, but those claims (made by that party itself apparently) have since been debunked. Addressing the convention of a competing party is interesting (and something I think should be encouraged), but it's trivial and not biographical, and thus including it in the article would be wp:undue. Should further facts on the matter emerge, though, I reserve the right to change my mind.  :)   user:j    (aka justen)   02:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

   Rebuttal to 4: Once agin, this is not a dead issue. The facts have been documented that she and her husband have been associated with the AKIP, he as a formal member, she as a sympathizer, who stated in the welcome video a sympathy for the party and support for its success. --Zeamays (talk) 17:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Jillyan2008 (talk) 18:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Palin's ties to the Alaskan secessionists are neither irrelevant nor too thin to be worthy of mention. Whether found on You Tube or blogs across the internet, the video of Sarah Palin is real evidence that she did in fact say she was "delighted" to address the 2008 convention of secessionists and advised them to "Keep up the good work!" Her sentiments were made clear by her own words and are available for anyone to see on tape. It's a fact. And it most certainly is relevant to her political career as she was serving as a governor at the time and was charged by the electorate of her state to serve them and represent them. And now she seeks to be the vice president of the nation from which the members of the organization she told to "Keep up the good work" wish to secede. It is factual, relevant and one of the most important issues in the 2008 campaign. No, she was not an official member. No suggestion to say she was on Wikipedia has been made. But her remarks in her words should be included in her biography. To do otherwise is to present an unbalanced press release for a political candidate and ignore the fair, factual, complete picture of this historic figure. A brief explanation of the organization and its official beliefs and activities, that she deemed good work worth keeping up, would be appropriate.

Book Banning

It is noted in the Wikipedia article on Sarah Palin that she "gave up" on banning books at the library. This is not the full truth. Gov. Palin tried to get Librarian Mary Ellen Baker to ban or remove certain books due to "inappropriate language". Ms. Baker was eventually terminated, after refusing to remove 'said' books. She didn't give up, she met opposition that became very public! (Reference: Time Magazine)

Terminated? can you please be more specific, do you mean sacked? And can you give a fuller ref, eg the date this was published in Time Magazine. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Quote from a 9-2-08 Time article, with different person making allegation than the person cited in the article, Ann Kilkenny - “[Former Wasilla mayor John] Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." That woman, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire Baker for not giving full support" to the mayor.” http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html EricDiesel (talk) 05:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The incident is discussed in the article, but in a more neutral way. Kelly ^hi! 23:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Dude.. Terminated!? Like hit man from the future?? That IS notable. Full Truth Rules! --98.243.129.181 (talk) 23:25, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Sarah - what a coincidence! :) Kelly ^hi! 23:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Sticking with Wikipedia:Verifiability, here are two sources related to this discussion. The Time (magazine) article from above:

• • Mayor Palin: A Rough Record

This article (Sept. 2) offers only a few details of the event. A more detailed article (from Sept. 4) is in the Boston Herald:

• • Palin asked Wasilla librarian about censoring books

The second article does offer more information that could be added to the article to clarify the sequence of events. -Classicfilms (talk) 00:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

What is your proposed rewording? Kelly ^hi! 00:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm open to suggestions. Perhaps it's best to wait and hear from other editors who have read the Boston Herald article first (and any other useful ones) as the source currently being used on the main page does not offer many details. The information below is useful as well - I would suggest however, keeping WP:UNDUE in mind, that this topic only take a few sentences or less (to maintain balance with the rest of the article). On the other hand, since this issue is something that has been referenced in a number of places, the WP should probably offer a bit more detail than it currently does. -Classicfilms (talk) 01:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The article, Wasilla librarian letter of termination is currently separate from Palin's bio, but contains several facts relevant to the discussion:

On Thursday, January 30th, 1997, the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, now Governor Sarah Palin, served the city librarian with a letter informing her she intended to terminate her employment in two weeks. The following day, Palin reversed herself, announcing that the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, could stay. Palin explained the attempted dismissal by saying that she did not feel she had the librarian's full support, and explained her reversal by saying that Emmons had assured Palin she was behind her.

Emmons, and the Wasilla police chief whom Palin dismissed at the same time, both supported her opponent, the incumbent John Stein, when she ran against him for office the previous year.

But Palin and the librarian also had other disagreements. Soon after Palin was elected mayor, in December 1996, Emmons was quoted by the Wasilla newspaper, The Frontiersman, as saying Palin had asked her multiple times about removing books from the library. Emmons added that she had refused to participate in any kind of censorship.

On at least one occasion, Palin brought up removing books from the library in public. In October 1996, at a meeting of the City Council, Anne Kilkenny, a Wasilla resident, said that Palin asked Emmons: "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?" According to Kilkenny, Emmons responded: "The books in the Wasilla Library collection were selected on the basis of national selection criteria for libraries of this size, and I would absolutely resist all efforts to ban books." At the time, Palin called her inquiries about book removal "rhetorical."

Emmons resigned in 1999, shortly before Palin was re-elected mayor. Palin is now the vice-presidential nominee of the Republican Party.

ENDIT.

The Anchorage Daily News, published today, cites Emmons herself as saying that Palin approached her several times about removing books from the library. Those two facts, if no others, should be included in any discussion of Palin's interest in censorship.

The references are:

Komarnitsky, S.J. (1997-02-01). ""Wasilla keeps librarian, but police chief is out"", Anchorage Daily News, pp. 1B. Retrieved on 2008-08-31.

White, Rindi (2008-09-04). ""Palin pressured Wasilla librarian, TOWN MAYOR: She wanted to know if books would be pulled"", Anchorage Daily News, pp. 1B. Retrieved on 2008-09-04.

Like.liberation 01:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

By what's presented here, how do we know Palin wasn't simply "testing" her librarian's principles? There doesn't seem to be any verifiable data that she actually requested specific books be removed, and she herself has labeled the incident as rhetorical. Fcreid (talk) 01:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Why would a person imagine that Palin was testing her librarian's principles? There's no evidence for that in what anybody said or what she stated. If it were the case, then Palin was simply testing her librarian's principles repeatedly, over a period of months, before she even knew she would be mayor.

Palin called her own inquiries rhetorical after they earned her negative media attention -- does that mean she was just joking? The librarian took her seriously. I doubt that Sarah Palin viewed city council meetings, which are on the public record, as times to fool around.

She never named specific books, because the librarian repeatedly refused to cooperate; it would have been pointless. Like.liberation 02:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Apply Occam's Razor here Fcreid, what is more likely? Your invented theory, or that a proven strongly religious person really wanted to ban material that she found offensive? Erik Veland (talk) 02:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

It would sure make for a fuller story if there were actual names of specific books. Given the scope of attention this is given, I can't imagine how that never came up between two humans who apparently knew each other pretty well. Really, can you? I also find the librarian's recollection of the incident coinciding with her notification about employment termination to be pretty telling. Think she actually like Palin? Probably not. So, why would we fully accredit her account but completely discredit Palin's? Just food for thought. Yes, Occam's Razor works nicely here. Fcreid (talk) 02:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I humbly propose that we change this sentence:

According to Ann Kilkenny, a Democrat who observed City Council, Palin also brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting, but did not follow through with the idea.

To this:

Soon after Palin was elected mayor, in December 1996, Emmons was quoted by the Wasilla newspaper The Frontiersman as saying Palin had asked her multiple times about removing books from the library, starting before she was elected. According to Ann Kilkenny, a Wasilla resident who sat in on city council meetings, Palin brought up the idea of removing library books at one meeting. Emmons refused repeatedly, and in January 1997, she received notice from Palin, later rescinded.

The sources are in the above Anchorage Daily News articles, one of them published today. Like.liberation 01:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

You forgot to mention the part about it being rhetorical! Fcreid (talk) 02:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point - it should be put in somewhere. Otherwise, I'd say that this is a good start. We should probably indicate, however, as the Herald article states, that the firing was grouped in with a number of other people and that her notice was received prior to the City Council meetings. In addition, I wonder if the last sentence should read: "in January 1997, she received notice from Palin, which was later rescinded." (I also fixed your formatting a bit for readability). -Classicfilms (talk) 02:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this story is completely out-of-whack in chronology and POV. Personally, I'd write it off to a petty feud if there weren't the actual reported incident of the rhetorical question at the city council meeting. Regardless, it's important to get the chronology correct, because it appears Palin was responding to the city council issue with her "just a rhetorical question" response, and it needs to be clear that occurred after the librarian (and many others) had already been released under the discretionary assignments she enjoyed as mayor. The librarian late recounting that she had been asked directly lacks a whole lot of credibility in my mind, but that's just me. Fcreid (talk) 02:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Clearly today's article in ADN is an important source. I think "three times" is more informative than "multiple times". Also, "Palin had asked... about removing books from the library" leaves open the possibility that Palin was asking for specific books to be removed which is not supported by either source. And the last sentence appears to connect Emmons' refusal with her notice of dismissal, which is also not supported by the sources. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 02:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Problems with the "book banning" issue.

1. John Stein (who later ran against her as mayor) says here that, '"She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them.'. This gives context to her inquiry - it's absence just makes the situation about a crazy mayor wanting to ban books. This references also gives a hint to it was certain books because of "inappropriate language". Problem is, we have no other source that goes beyond this detail.
2. Where's the direct source from this , "In December 1996, Emmons told her hometown newspaper, the Frontiersman, that Palin three times asked her -- starting before she was sworn in -- about possibly removing objectionable books from the library if the need arose. " Other articles mention trying to get a hold of Emmons but she was unreachable.
3. And about Anne Kilkenny, not that she's lying - but I think this gives weight to find another sources before we take her characterizations of the situation. About Sarah Palin: an e-mail from Wasilla By Anne Kilkenny

Theosis4u (talk) 02:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly why I never use people I've pissed off as references in my resume! :) Fcreid (talk) 02:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I move that if we allow any portions of the Kilkenny letter as factual that all portions may be cited as factual, e.g. "According to Ms. Kilkenny, Governor Palin is 'not really pro-life'" and the like. Of course I am being facetious. This source is anything but reliable and rings clearly of an axe grinding from an old adversary. It should be utterly discredited as WP:RS. Fcreid (talk) 03:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. I think practically any candidate, for anything from mayors to national elections, has been criticized as "pro censorship" in some way all the time by previous associates, and duly quoted by mainstream media. It's incredibly irrelevant, RS, and Undue Weight.Pianomikey0 (talk) 03:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Although I will admit it's a good read. You can tell a lot about a person by talking to his enemies. Fcreid (talk) 03:18, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed again. Although I shudder to think what some of my former co-workers would say say about me, should I run for office ;) Pianomikey0 (talk) 03:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll be responsible here, considering I share the link of the letter. The link - About Sarah Palin: an e-mail from Wasilla By Anne Kilkenny - does say this, "Editor's note: The writer is a homemaker and education advocate in Wasilla, Alaska. Late last week, Anne Kilkenny penned an e-mail for her friends about vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin, whom she personally knows, that has since circulated across comment forums and blogs nationwide. Here is her e-mail in its entirety, posted with her permission." Is that good enough for us to judge it as representative of Anne Kilkenny? Theosis4u (talk) 03:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you advocating for inclusion of its contents as cited reference? If so, I would disagree. It's obviously an extemporaneous and anecdotal account of events without any context for establishing either her credibility or credentials. I believe the legal term is voir dire. If some other RS runs this to ground and provides greater foundation, then we should potentially look to that. Somehow, I find that unlikely. Fcreid (talk) 03:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to point out that the newspaper said they confirmed the email was from her. I hate to find out tomorrow that the "email" turned out to be a hoax. Theosis4u (talk) 04:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Since Palin herself referred to the incident by calling it rhetorical and since it was covered in the press on December 18, 1996 and here [4] it is fair to say that something did happen and that it is notable and worthy of inclusion. The Anchorage Daily News is RS and the issue has been covered by a number of newspapers including the NY Times and others. The WP should include something on the topic. On the other hand, I do agree that it would be a good idea as well to find the original December 18, 1996 Frontiersman article before expanding the sentence. I checked a few online sources and cannot find it. If someone has access to a library which would have a copy of the article in microfiche and wants to do the research, it would be very helpful to this discussion. -Classicfilms (talk) 03:39, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Concur. The city council statement, while rhetorical (taking Palin at her word), still warrants a mention. It should not include anything unsubstantiated and, frankly, deserves no more than a single line, e.g. "As mayor, Palin was once quoted asking about "removing books from the library" at a city council meeting, later stating it was a rhetorical question." Fcreid (talk) 03:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, that's a good start - in following Wikipedia:Five pillars and importantly Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, all voices which are documented according to Wikipedia:Verifiability have a place in the article. Thus in addition to Palin arguing that she meant it rhetorically, quotes from the librarian are needed to balance the section. Since the Frontiersman has those quotes, it should be easy to find them (if someone can dig up the article). As for Anne Kilkenny, I'm not certain her email is RS but if she is interviewed by an RS news source and quoted, that would qualify as RS. In other words, a few sentences are worthy of inclusion but they should be well sourced and researched. -Classicfilms (talk) 03:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess in fairness we should also add the other known context, i.e. "As mayor, Palin was once quoted at a city council meeting asking about "removing books from the library" because some voters felt they contained inappropriate language. She later stated it was a rhetorical question." Fcreid (talk) 03:53, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Good suggestion and closer to NPOV. Again, however, I'd like to see that 1996 article before making major changes - it will help us to construct an NPOV sentence that is well documented. Thanks for your suggestions. -Classicfilms (talk) 03:58, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The above seems most appropriate if it's to be included. That's why I include the quote from him - it gave context. Theosis4u (talk) 04:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

It also leaves open the possibility that <gasp> she was actually performing her official duties by escalating an issue raised by constituents to the city council instead of unilaterally dismissing it. That lacks the punch of "Palin fires Wasilla librarian for not burning "Darwin's Theory of Evolution", but it could actually be closer to the truth. Fcreid (talk) 04:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

That's sorta what I was thinking and thought it would be important to include the references that the inquiry was on behalf of others in regards to specific books about inappropriate language. As a parent, I would hope my mayor would look into something like that -- if I had no children, I would consider it a waste of his time. Theosis4u (talk) 04:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

If I read the complaint correctly, there have been no books actually censored, even after the librarian was fired. That indicates the firing really had nothing to do with book-burning, but with personality issues. In short: a "cat fight". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 06:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Librarian was never fired. No books were banned. There was a source in this article yesterday that mentioned the librarian had signed some document stating she supported the mayor Palin had ran against. Believe it was the same thing with the police chief. I've been unable to locate it again. Theosis4u (talk) 07:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

What? Why does anyone even care? People don't read books from the library, especially not the school's "media centers"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.122.119.33 (talk) 08:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Besides, what's wrong with banning books anyway? Some of them are stupid. People still think George Orwell's phantasy is believable. People are stupid. Why do we even let them read the internet?

Sarah Palin is a babe. You can't take your eyes off her. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.122.119.33 (talk) 08:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I defy anyone to take their eyes off of Sarah Palin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.122.119.33 (talk) 08:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Why do you think McCain chose her? Rush Limbaugh once said McCain's nomination would destroy the Republican Party. Now he's on the bandwagon. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 11:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

So, is there consensus to replace this:

"According to Ann Kilkenny, a Democrat who observed City Council, Palin also brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting, but did not follow through with the idea.[18]"

With this:

"As mayor, Palin was once quoted at a city council meeting asking about "removing books from the library" because some voters felt they contained inappropriate language. She later stated it was a rhetorical question."

This presumes consensus that the Kilkenny email is tainted, non-RS. Fcreid (talk) 12:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The issue here is not the email (which doesn't exactly fit RS) but the article by the ADN which satisfies Wikipedia:Verifiability. If a change is made, it should only be based upon this article unless other articles are offered. This article does not contain the quote "removing books from the library," thus it cannot be used. Here is what the article states:

"When the matter came up for the second time in October 1996, during a City Council meeting, Anne Kilkenny, a Wasilla housewife who often attends council meetings, was there. Like many Alaskans, Kilkenny calls the governor by her first name. "Sarah said to Mary Ellen, 'What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?" Kilkenny said. "I was shocked. Mary Ellen sat up straight and said something along the line of, 'The books in the Wasilla Library collection were selected on the basis of national selection criteria for libraries of this size, and I would absolutely resist all efforts to ban books.'" Palin didn't mention specific books at that meeting, Kilkenny said. Palin herself, questioned at the time, called her inquiries rhetorical and simply part of a policy discussion with a department head "about understanding and following administration agendas," according to the Frontiersman article." [5]

If the sentence in the main page is changed and a quote used, the quote should reflect what is written above exactly (and in fact can state that the information came from the ADN). -Classicfilms (talk) 12:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, the article didn't mention the fact that this happened "because some voters felt they contained inappropriate language" - this is a paraphrase, which is fine, but I didn't see anything in the article which reflected this idea. If it is used, another RS which states that this is what happened is needed. -Classicfilms (talk) 12:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The closest sentence in the article is "about possibly removing objectionable books from the library if the need arose" - this is what would have to be paraphrased. -Classicfilms (talk) 12:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Hard telling what she was up to, without knowing what specific books she had in mind, if any. For example, if they had the nambla official guide to molesting children, she might have wanted that out of there. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what bugs me the most and the only reason I ventured into this topic. However, the quote about "because voters felt they contained inappropriate language" is derived from here http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1837918,00.html which is anything but a glowing interpretation of the event. Fcreid (talk) 13:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

No pun intended, Bugs. :) Fcreid (talk) 13:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, that helps, thanks. The rewrite can then mix what is offered in the ADN [[6] and TIME [7]. Anything beyond what is in RS, however, would fall under Wikipedia:No original research and is thus beyond the scope of the WP. -Classicfilms (talk) 13:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Not to muddy this water even further but this other quote "St. George worked on Stein's campaign at the time, and while he says he has no reason to dispute Stein's recollection of events, he doesn't remember Palin's conduct being beyond the pale. "Our tax coffers were starting to grow," he says. "John was for expanding services, and Sarah wasn't. That's what the race was about." certainly sheds even further light on this event. Growth, change and reform are hard things to accept, and one's perspective of a specific event more than a decade later might certainly become suspect. I'm glad these folks are not witnesses for a prosecution (at least more than figuratively). Fcreid (talk) 13:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

That's certainly a fair quote from the Time article if you want to use it. If you can come up with another version of the sentence for the main page which follows Wikipedia:Five pillars, I would be happy to take a look this evening. I have to sign off now. -Classicfilms (talk) 13:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

How about this without getting into all the he-said/she-said an less than credible source quotes? (Sorry for lack of structure.. still learning here.) Fcreid (talk) 14:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

"As mayor, Palin was once quoted at a city council meeting asking about "removing books from the library" because some voters felt they contained inappropriate language. Accounts of the incident vary, with Palin later stating it was a rhetorical question."

Rationale for above: it includes the core premise (Palin asked about removing books) and two undisputed facts (because of complaints from constituents and her later admission of it being rhetorical). It excludes a disputed fact (whether the librarian firing had anything to do with the books) and omits any inference on the purposes of the ban (because we know nothing about which books to which she referred). Fcreid (talk) 14:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The Anchorage Daily News article from September 4, 2008 -- http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515512.html -- currently presents our best evidence in this discussion. They cite an article in The Frontiersman, saying:

"In December 1996, Emmons told her hometown newspaper, the Frontiersman, that Palin three times asked her -- starting before she was sworn in -- about possibly removing objectionable books from the library if the need arose."

That’s one reliable source citing another reliable source citing Emmons’s statements in 1996. Since Emmons is not answering the phone these days, that’s all the media have to work with. The ADN article continues:

 "Emmons told the Frontiersman she flatly refused to consider any kind of censorship….
 When the matter came up for the second time in October 1996, during a City Council meeting, Anne Kilkenny, a Wasilla housewife who often attends council meetings, was there. 
 Like many Alaskans, Kilkenny calls the governor by her first name. 
 "Sarah said to Mary Ellen, 'What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?’ " Kilkenny said. 
 "I was shocked. Mary Ellen sat up straight and said something along the line of, 'The books in the Wasilla Library collection were selected on the basis of national selection criteria for libraries of this size, and I would absolutely resist all efforts to ban books.'" "

The above quotes from Kilkenny are not in the widely circulated e-mail, and ADN does not attribute them to The Frontiersman. They are quotes from a witness in a newspaper that is RS, and should carry at least as much weight as Palin’s own claim that her inquiries were “rhetorical,” since Palin, after all, has every interest to paint the remarks as trivial.

And what does it mean, Fcreid, to repeatedly ask “rhetorical” questions of a librarian as to whether she’ll remove books from the shelves? What kind of rhetoric is that? What if someone asked you: “How would you feel about not expressing your opinion in this forum?” What if that someone asked you that three times, and had the power to terminate your account? Does calling such a question rhetorical make it meaningless? And if the remarks were empty, why did Palin repeat them?

If Palin was simply representing her constituents by exploring the possibility of banning books, then to call her own remarks rhetoric is to betray the purpose of her constituency. If, on the other hand, her interest in censorship was sincere and truly representative of Wasilla residents, then it was not rhetoric. You can’t have it both ways.

If it was not rhetoric – and I think her persistent inquiries and the Stein quote in Time both support that – then Palin stood for censorship. That is the most notable aspect of her library policy at that time, and the only aspect that was newsworthy.

Then we come to the question: What was she censoring? She gave no list of books, but we know what was on hand. To quote ADN, “Emmons was president of the Alaska Library Association at the time.” According to Kilkenny, Emmons said: “'The books in the Wasilla Library collection were selected on the basis of national selection criteria for libraries of this size…” We have no reason to believe that Emmons’s standards were so low as to include material that was objectionable by any objective measure. We do know that Palin belonged to a church that might have objections to mainstream literature, possibly works concerning evolution or reproductive freedom, possibly works with “inappropriate language,” as Stein put it.

In the end, of course, Palin backed off. Again, the ADN article offers a reason:

 "Emmons had been city librarian for seven years and was well liked. After a wave of public support for her, Palin relented and let Emmons keep her job."

All that to say, in describing this exchange, we should refer to the latest ADN article, which itself is based on the quotes in The Frontiersman. Something along these lines:

 "Emmons said she was asked three times about removing books from the library, at least once at a city council meeting.  Having refused repeatedly, Emmons received a letter from Palin terminating her employment, which Palin then retracted after a wave of public support for Emmons.  Palin may have been concerned with inappropriate language in certain library books, but ultimately none were banned.  Palin later called her inquiries rhetorical."  

I think that sums up the significant aspects of the exchange based on our best knowledge. It makes no reference to the Kilkenny e-mail.

Like.liberation 14:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Beyond the fact that you're still introducing disputed accounts of unknown factual data, you have also omitted two other relevant facts: that she was doing this at the behest of her consituents, and that the former mayor's campaign manager did not recount the event in the same manner. I think the term I've seen used in this type of situation is "synthesis". Fcreid (talk) 14:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

In the phrasing I proposed at the end of my last comment, what’s the unknown factual data, and what’s disputed about it? It would help me to respond and improve the sentences if you could be more specific. Every proposed sentence can be referenced to the ADN article, which itself is based on the best reporting available to us, not hearsay. Those sentences are as sound and verifiable as anything in Wikipedia.

It may be that Palin was acting at the behest of her constituents. Stein says she was. I’m fine rephrasing it like:

Palin may have asked about removing library books because of her constituents’ concerns with inappropriate language, but ultimately none were banned.

In the Time article, Chas St. George never mentions the library. What version of events are you referring to? I don't object his quotes, but they're not relevant to the library issue. Like.liberation 15:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

My last word on this, as I'm not paid to be her lawyer. Choose the version you want. What you've concocted here obviously paints the "zealot" image that the left has been trying so hard to insert into this article with an equivalent level of extremely thin evidence. I, in good conscience, consider my succinct statement as NPOV with the evidence presented, omitting the disuputed accounts, the hearsay and even the "hearsay about hearsay". In your own conscience, you might consider elaborating that these people did not like Palin (substantiated by the evidence) and maybe include just one quote from a person actually willing to stand by his account, i.e. "Wearing her faith quietly fits more with Palin's personality, says St. George. "In all the years I've known Sarah and her parents, we never talked about right-to-life or any of that," he says. "She doesn't let those issues get in the way of getting things done for the community." Fcreid (talk) 15:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This really should get edited ASAP. Everyone who watched the news last night knows this has become a DNC talking point, "She tried banning books." Theosis4u (talk) 15:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I propose we cut this sentence:

According to Ann Kilkenny, a Democrat who observed City Council, Palin also brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting, but did not follow through with the idea.

Start a new paragraph in the same place, incorporating Frceid's suggestions:

Emmons said she was asked three times about removing books from the library, at least once at a city council meeting. Having refused repeatedly, Emmons received the letter from Palin terminating her employment, which Palin then retracted after a wave of public support for Emmons.  Palin may have asked about removing library books because of her constituents’ concerns with inappropriate language, but ultimately none were banned. Palin later called her inquiries rhetorical.

And reference each of the above sentences to this article -- http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515512.html -- and the second to last sentence to the Time piece. Like.liberation 15:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Concur with one caveat. Is the cause/effect of the librarian firing fully substantiated? There is further dialog below (with cite) that specifically describes the chronology of those events, and it indicates the librarian firing was among a group of others. It's certainly not flattering -- describing them as non-players and then going into discussion of Draconion "was just testing you" diatribe, but it also seems to counter the hearsay evidence that the book removal precipitated the firing. Fcreid (talk) 16:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

We don't know why these things happened, and we can't read Palin's mind, but we do know is what happened and in what order. We know from newspapers that Palin and Emmons had one open difference: Emmons refused to consider removing books from the library. Kilkenny says in her e-mail that Emmons had also supported Palin's opponent in the mayoral race, but there seems to be caution here about including information from the e-mail in the article.

In any case, Palin said she did not feel she had Emmons's full support in the letter informing her of the intended termination. A day later, Palin said she had been reassured of Emmons's support. So Palin's action probably had multiple causes. I think the proposed change addressed one of those causes. The other possible cause, the issue of support, has already been covered in the third paragraph under the Wasilla heading. Like.liberation 17:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Object. The librarian was never fired. If she was fired their would of been paper work on it. The only thing we have at this point is that Palin sent a letter out to those that gave public support to the old mayor she beat in the election and the letter stated she "intends" to fire them. Sources then claim that Palin meet with these individuals to discuss the issues. Only the Police chief was fired. Also, Fcreid's sentence is the most accurate one:

• ""As mayor, Palin was once quoted at a city council meeting asking about "removing books from the library" because some voters felt they contained inappropriate language. She later stated it was a rhetorical question."

Though it could be adjusted to say "As mayor, Palin asked about,"removing books from the library" because some voters felt they contained inappropriate language. She later stated it was a rhetorical question." There's mixed results about how many times she brought it up - maybe it's best to avoid the number of times and just stick to what was asked about and why. Theosis4u (talk) 16:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Only for an alternative, because the original revision was significantly reworded:

Emmons said she was asked three times about removing books from the library, at least once at a city council meeting. Having refused consistently, Emmons was among several other city employees who received letters from Palin terminating employment. Palin retracted the letter requesting Emmons' termination. Palin may have asked about removing library books because of her constituents’ concerns with inappropriate language, but ultimately none were banned. Palin later called her inquiries rhetorical.

Based on the reference http://www.adn.com/sarahpalin/story/510219.html which indicates the decision to retain Emmons was reached through reconciliation between the two parties rather than in response to a town uproar. Fcreid (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Any further tweaks? Can we get consensus here? T0mpr1c3 (talk) 16:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the tweaks, Fcreid. I propose this wording, which mentions both reasons why Palin may have retained Emmons:

Emmons said she was asked three times about removing books from the library, at least once at a city council meeting. Having refused consistently, Emmons was among two city employees who received letters from Palin in January 1997 terminating their employment. Palin retracted the letter informing Emmons of her termination after a wave of public support for the librarian, and having been assured of her support. Palin may have asked about removing library books because of her constituents’ concerns with inappropriate language, but ultimately none were banned. Palin later called her inquiries rhetorical.

Like.liberation 17:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I object on the ground that her termination letter was already mentioned in the proceeding paragraph and that tying the two together is improper since they are not necessarily related. I would instead suggest a paragraph only about the possible book banning without mentioning the firing aspects and would suggest putting such a paragraph above the current one (since it came first chronologically). The sentence about book banning would be removed from the current paragraph. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I have a few moments so I thought I'd take a look. It looks like there are a number of suggestions floating around. I combined them and used quotes directly from the sources. While it is a little longer, I do not think it would fall under undue weight since a number of topics need to be covered. Also, I added footnotes, which is something we should start doing so that the final draft can be copied directly to the article. Let me know what you think:

As mayor, Palin was quoted at a city council meeting as asking: "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?" because some voters felt they contained inappropriate language. The librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, later stated that Palin asked her three times about removing books from the library, at least once prior to this city council meeting as well as during the meeting. Emmons stated that she refused each time. Prior to this meeting (along with the police chief, public works director, and finance director ), Emmons had received a letter from Palin requesting her resignation. The letter did not refer to the question of censorship as a reason for the request. Palin later retracted this request after Emmons received support from the community. None of the books were banned and Palin later called her inquiries rhetorical.

-Classicfilms (talk) 17:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I should add that if we use this version, we can combine it with the existing paragraph in the main article and tweak both a bit so that material is not repeated twice. I looked at both paragraphs and it seems like a simple matter of a little copy editing that shouldn't create a problem. -Classicfilms (talk) 18:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I like it, Classicfilms, but I don't think we're quite there yet. In October 1996, Palin asked for Emmons's resignation, along with the resignations of a bunch of other public employees. In January 1997, she sent Emmons a letter telling her her job would be terminated in two weeks. (And of course neither letter referred to Emmons's refusal to remove books.) Let's not confuse the two letters, or their tone. One asked for resignations, the other said you've got two weeks to leave. The weaker letter came before the public confrontation and Emmons's remarks in the newspaper, the stronger one after. Taking your paragraph as a model, I made a couple tweaks that straighten it out, I think, using the same sources.

As mayor, Palin was quoted at a city council meeting as asking the town librarian: "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?", perhaps because some Wasilla residents felt they contained inappropriate language. The librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, later said Palin had asked her three times about removing books from the library, at least once prior to the meeting. Emmons said she refused each time. Before the October meeting, Emmons received a letter from Palin requesting her resignation; then in January 1997, Palin served Emmons's with a two-week notice, terminating her employment. Neither letter referred to the question of censorship, but only to feeling a lack of support. Palin retracted her letter of termination a day later, after Emmons was backed by the community.

These reflists are acting weird and I don't quite know how to fix them...

ThaddeusB, I'll repeat what I said above. We know from newspapers that Palin and Emmons had one open difference: Emmons refused to consider removing books from the library. The librarian said that Palin inquired about it and was refused before she was sworn in, and therefore before she had the power to ask for employees' resignations. So the censorship inquiry predates the resignation request, and that pattern was repeated again in Dec 1996-Jan 1997: inquiry, refusal, letter. That's the chronology and we should stick to it.

Like.liberation 18:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sure, Like.liberation - it looks fine. We're still in the draft mode so I expected more tweaks. My only qualm would be "perhaps because some Wasilla residents felt." The Time magazine article quotes Stein as stating that this is the reason she asked so to add the above becomes interpretive. If you don't like my wording, can you rephrase so that it reflects the Time article? I also tried to fix your refs - check and make sure I didn't make it worse. Since I added the reflist tag above, it doesn't need to be added again. -Classicfilms (talk) 18:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

It looks like I ran into the same ref problem - oh well. It should be fine once the final version is pasted into the main article.-Classicfilms (talk) 18:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

No, the letter that speaks of possible termination can't be directly tied to the book issue. Those letters went to employees that Palin thought favored the old mayor, had publicly support the old mayor, or were tied to a position that was going to be removed of the city payrolls. There's also statements that show that their were discussions about this "test of loyalty" and those can't be tied back to the librarian simply because of the book issue. It makes sense to treat both topics as separate events without this collusion. Theosis4u (talk) 18:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Just so the small town politics doesn't get lost to the layman here, these are "discretionary" positions and are absolutely up for grabs to be filled at the discretion of the mayor. There should have had been *every* expectation the new mayor (Palin) would have bounced the incumbents and put in employees who were "loyal" to her agenda, particularly if the incumbent employees vocally supported the losing party. (The police chief learned this in his failed lawsuit.) If Palin wanted to "clean house" of the cronyism to advance a "different direction" agenda for which she was elected, she was totally within her bounds. Emmons should be thankful she ended up with a job. Fcreid (talk) 18:59, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The Time and ADN articles mentions both but indicates that the ties are ambiguous. I think if we are quoting these sources, we need to include both but state, as the articles do, that there are no direct links. Also I just noticed the "rhetorical" statement was missing. That needs to be there since it is Palin's official response. We are reflecting articles, not interpreting them.-Classicfilms (talk) 18:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Sarah_Palin#Clarity_About_early_.22firings.22_in_Wasilla about details. Theosis4u (talk) 18:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sure, some public employees hold discretionary positions, but the post of librarian is usually not highly politicized. I doubt that most librarians appointed by mayors would consider themselves "cronies," and if they did, they wouldn't be very useful ones. What's the mayor going to do -- get a deal on wigs? Most mayors don't have an agenda for the library, or put book removal at the top of their list. But Palin did, and Emmons resisted. Emmons had been librarian for seven years in a town of less than 5,000 people. She was president of the entire Alaska Library Association at the time. How many people do you think there were in Wasilla, Alaska, that could compete with those credentials? Do you think that Palin had the best interest of the community in mind when she tried to get rid of Emmons? No. And here's the ADN:

Palin herself, questioned at the time, called her inquiries rhetorical and simply part of a policy discussion with a department head "about understanding and following administration agendas," according to the Frontiersman article.

So Palin said she had a library agenda. That involved, among other things, seeing if the librarian would remove books upon request, books that had been approved under national standards, but which weren't clean enough for Wasilla. In most towns, that's not even an issue, but Palin made it an issue. Her agenda failed to win the support of Emmons, who preferred to resist censorship rather than show her "loyalty." The letters and the censorship issue all took place in those first few months, and should be presented together. We're not saying because, but there is a clear chronology here, and bending over backwards to avoid putting those events in order only muddles them. Along those lines, we will be reflecting articles -- particularly those coming out of Alaska -- not interpreting them, because that's how they related the events.

Classicfilms, I propose this wording in response to your tweaks.

As mayor, Palin was quoted at a city council meeting as asking the town librarian: "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?", because some Wasilla residents felt they contained inappropriate language. The librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, later said Palin had asked her three times about removing books from the library, at least once prior to the meeting. Emmons said she refused each time. Before the October meeting, Emmons received a letter from Palin requesting her resignation; then in January 1997, Palin served Emmons's with a two-week notice, terminating her employment. Neither letter referred to the question of censorship, but only to feeling a lack of support. Palin retracted her letter of termination a day later, after Emmons was backed by the community, and said her book removal inquiries were rhetorical. The letters themselves did not mention Emmons's refusal to consider removing books, but simply her lack of support.

Like.liberation 20:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks great - as I mentioned above, we should add one line about Palin's response that it was a rhetorical comment as reported in the ADN. As part of the WP's NPOV policy, we need to state all sides and this comment should be quoted. Otherwise, it looks fine. -Classicfilms (talk) 20:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, we should somehow indicate that she wasn't the only one to receive a letter - that other public officials did as well. This is referenced in the sources and should be mentioned here. The key point is that we are summarizing sources in a way which reflect all key points and all sides. Otherwise, good work. -Classicfilms (talk) 20:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Concur with caveats above if we *must* go into this much detail about the flap in Hooterville. Thanks. Fcreid (talk) 20:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

The comment on rhetorical is in the second-to-last sentence. The Wasilla section already amply covers the other letters served, and briefly mentions Emmons. I don't think we need to restate it. But if we choose to, it could read like this:

As mayor, Palin was quoted at a city council meeting as asking the town librarian: "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?", because some Wasilla residents felt they contained inappropriate language. The librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, later said Palin had asked her three times about removing books from the library, at least once prior to the meeting. Emmons said she refused each time. Before the October meeting, Emmons received a letter from Palin requesting her resignation; then in January 1997, Palin served Emmons's with a two-week notice, terminating her employment. Both times, other public employees were also served with letters. Neither time did Palin refer to the question of censorship, but only to feeling a lack of support. Palin retracted her letter of termination to Emmons a day later, after Emmons was backed by the community, and said her book removal inquiries were rhetorical. The letters themselves did not mention Emmons's refusal to consider removing books, but simply her lack of support.

If we all agree, I think that's a wrap.

Like.liberation 20:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - I missed the "rhetorical" in your draft above. -Classicfilms (talk) 00:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Object: the proposed version is far too wordy and if the current paragraph was left largely in tact (and it has to be because others are involved with resignation request/firing) it would mention the same basic facts regarding the firing incident 3 times. I will try to write a version that addresses everyone's concerns without being so wordy shortly --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

We're not proposing to replace the paragraph about resignations, we're proposing adding this one on after it. It's wordy because we have to be careful with the language, and there's so many nuances to cover. We've spent a lot of time hammering it out, so to save time and not duplicate effort, it might be best to work with the present wording. Like.liberation 21:01, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Except it is way too long, and addresses the same fact 3 times which are both UNDUE WEIGHT. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I want to congratulate Like.liberation for doing as NPOV job as possible, given the apparent impetus to put such explicit details of the "Wasilla Library Shake-up" in here. One final comment but not a request for further change. I understand "inappropriate language" is all we know about these books. While we don't actually say it, everyone knows the obvious inference people will take is that the questionable material was religiously offensive. And it may have been--St. George himself admits the area was evolving into a "Bible-belt", and it wouldn't surprise me if citizens raised that issue to Palin. My problem is I think we're reading Palin wrong on this religion thing. The case for it is far too thin from everything I've seen--even the extemporaneous stuff like the biting critque from Kilkenny doesn't paint her as a zealot. The real "meat" out there just doesn't seem to support the inference made here. Whatever, though... I guess of public service and getting into your constituency's shoes. Fcreid (talk) 21:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

N Edit declined. There is currently no consensus for the suggested edit. Please use {{editprotect}} only after a consensus for a change in the article has been achieved (see CAT:PER). The edit request is otherwise not actionable.  Sandstein  05:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggested version

Here is what I suggest. Hopefully this version covers all the facts/concerns without being too wordy/repetitive.

While Palin was mayor, she raised the subject of removing some books from the town's library. According to the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, Palin asked her three times about removing books from the library, beginning before she was inaugurated. At an October 1996 city council meeting Palin asked "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?", adding that some Wasilla residents felt the books contained inappropriate language. Emmons, who had received a request for her resignation from Palin four days prior, strongly rejected the idea. Palin later stated that the question had been rhetorical in nature. Ultimately, no books were removed from the library.

In October 1996, she asked the Wasilla police chief, public works director, finance director, and Emmons to resign, saying that she felt they didn't support her administration. She also instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters. In January 1997, Palin notified the police chief, Irl Stambaugh, and Emmons that they were being fired. She stated that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration, but declined to be more specific. She rescinded the firing of the librarian the next day, after community outcry, stating that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. The police chief, however, was fired and filed a lawsuit. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Comments? --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I like it. I think it covers all of Ike's points. Fcreid (talk) 22:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, the source has portions of the letter that was sent out. The letter didn't say they were fired or terminated. It says that Palin had the intent and from other parts of the source materials it's clear she meet with individuals (Librarian and Police Chief are specifically mentioned). There isn't reference to the said individuals giving public support to the mayor that was defeated. There is a conflicting report about why Emmons wasn't terminated - 1. Palin and her worked it out in the mentioned meeting. 2. "Outcry" for the public - how many was that they "outcried" exactly? I would recommend swapping the order of the two paragraphs and then removing the lines about termination in the "books" paragraph. Theosis4u (talk) 22:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

ThaddeusB, thanks for this. I agree with you in large part. I'd like to propose a couple tweaks, with explanations in parentheses.

While Palin was mayor, she raised the subject of removing some books from the town's library. According to the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, Palin asked her three times about removing books from the library, beginning before she was inaugurated, and three times she was refused. At an October 1996 city council meeting, according to one Wasilla resident, (Anne Kilkenny says this. We don't have Palin directly one record saying it.) Palin asked "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?", because (adding that, we have no record of her adding this. John Stein made the claim in the Time article) some Wasilla residents felt the books contained inappropriate language. Emmons, who had received a request for her resignation from Palin four days prior, strongly rejected the idea for the second time (otherwise it would seem as though she were doing it out of spite). Palin later stated that the question had been rhetorical in nature. Ultimately, no books were removed from the library.

In October 1996, Palin asked the Wasilla police chief, public works director, finance director, and Emmons to resign, saying that she felt they didn't support her administration. She also instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters. In January 1997, Palin notified the police chief, Irl Stambaugh, and Emmons that they were being fired. She stated that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration, but declined to be more specific. She rescinded the firing of the librarian the next day, after community outcry, stating that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. The police chief, however, was fired and filed a lawsuit. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Theosis4u, you're harping on semantics. ADN said there was a "wave of public support" for Emmons after she received the January letter. Here's a direct quote from that letter:

"I do not feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the city of Wasilla. Therefore I intend to terminate your employment ..."

Now tell me, is she firing them or not? Employers fire employees by giving them notice. What is notice? It's saying: "Your job will end in a short period of time. I intend to terminate it." All firings happen in the future and are therefore based on intent. Let's please move on.

Thaddeus has included both reasons why it is thought that Emmons was kept on: the reconciliation and the outcry. I see no other objections. Now it's a matter of adding the references.

Like.liberation 00:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks great. Thanks ThaddeusB for the rewrite and Like.liberation for your tweaks and suggestions. Perhaps one of you could create one more version with the refs and if it is approved by everyone, we can ask for it to be copied to the article. -Classicfilms (talk) 00:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I concur with the tweaks. On a side note, if we actually get this approved I would consider that a minor miracle - consensus on a hot button topic, imagine that. :) --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Update - Just saw this, might be relevant before going forward. Offical city responses - one is pdf about the book issue. Theosis4u (talk) 00:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on this site? -Classicfilms (talk) 00:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Which document are we supposed to be looking at? Also, wouldn't using direct source constitute original research? --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Didn't want to link a pdf directly, for those that don't link the surprise. The document didn't have much to offer other than confirming no books were ever "banned" and gave the library policy about these situation. Theosis4u (talk) 01:43, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's what I've come up with - I know it's to long and I expect cuts to it. I believe it does give a good account of the three situations though. 1. Resignations. 2. Books 3. Terminations. I didn't focus on proper quoting and syntax, that should be reviewed for necessities.

In October 1996, newly seated Mayor Palin asked police chief Irl Stambaug, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak and city librarian Mary Ellen Emmons to resign. Saying that she felt they didn't support her administration. Stein, the now ex-mayor, hired many of these department heads. It is known that both Emmons and Stambaugh had publicly supported him against Palin during the mayoral elections. [upcoming source questionable?] Stambaugh also was at odds earlier with Palin, when she was on city council. He wanted the local bars to close sooner, she didn't find it necessary. And again when the Alaska legislature proposed expanding Alaska’s laws to expand the right to carrying concealed weapons. Stambaugh had publicly opposed it while was Palin in favor. 3 Palin also instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters during this time. In summary about the request of resignations, Palin told the Daily News that the letters were just a test of loyalty as she took on the mayor's job. Alluding to the support they had given to the ex-mayor. We know that Stambaug and Emmons stayed on after this.

Palin inquired in the last quarter of 1996 about the subject of removing some objectionable books from the town's library. Stein, the ex-mayor, said that it was because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. In December 1996, Emmons told the hometown newspaper, the Frontiersman, that Palin asked three times about possibly removing objectionable books from the library if the need arose. Once was before Palin had sworn in. Emmons continued saying, "she flatly refused to consider any kind of censorship." One of the later incidents, was in October 1996 at a city council meeting. It was described by a Wasilla resident, Anne Kilkenny. Kilkenny recounts that Palin asked Emmons, 'What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?" . Kilkenny accounts that, "Mary Ellen sat up straight and said something along the line of, 'The books in the Wasilla Library collection were selected on the basis of national selection criteria for libraries of this size, and I would absolutely resist all efforts to ban books.'" Kilkenny said Palin didn't mention specific books at that meeting. Palin herself, questioned at the time, called her inquiries rhetorical and simply part of a policy discussion with a department head "about understanding and following administration agendas," according to the Frontiersman article. Ultimately, no books were removed from the library.

On January 30th 1997, a Thursday, signed letters from the mayors office were dropped off at Emmoms and Stambaugh's desk, telling them that their jobs were over as of Feb. 13. 1997. The letter stated, 'I do not feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the city of Wasilla. Therefore I intend to terminate your employment .... The next day, Friday, the three met briefly at Wasilla City Hall in the afternoon to discuss the situation. Palin also called them twice at Stambaugh's home later before making her decision. Palin announced her decesion later that Friday, stating she now felt that Emmons supported her but didn't feel the same about Stambaugh. Palin claimed she now had Emmons' assurance that she was behind her and would support her efforts to merge the library and museum operations. John Cooper, the ex-director of the city museum, resigned earlier hearing that Palin would eliminated his job. Palin announced though that Stambaugh would be terminated. Her conversation with Stambaugh was short, both later said. He had asked, "What's the basis for this?" She gave him no details he claims and that he didn't understand why he's been fired. There never was an appropriate response, he said. How did we not support the administration? In regards to his support of the past mayor, Stambaugh said he thought any questions had been resolved. Stambaugh filed a lawsuit after this, believing he had a contract that prohibited the city from firing him without cause.. A court later dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Sources used to compile above : Wasilla keeps librarian, but police chief is out (2/1/1997) , Palin pressured Wasilla librarian , Mayor Palin: A Rough Record , and Fear And Retribution: Palin’s Pattern Of Governance Apologies if that was horrible, still getting the learning curve down. Theosis4u (talk) 02:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Goodness, that's a lot of text. Its certainly a more compete history, but is all this detail necessaery? Which specific facts do you think are both releveant and missing from my version above? --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I had the same reaction. While I realize that you are hoping to trim this down, the excessive amount of detail can still lead us to WP:Undue weight and I'm not certain how it improves the existing version by ThaddeusB and Like.liberation. Was there a particular objection you have to their version? Is there a detail you would like to add? That might prove more effective than a complete rewrite again. It would be nice to add this section to the article soon. -Classicfilms (talk) 02:27, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

My intent was to break down the three issues and have each issue stand on it's own within the paragraph. Hopefully I provided all the evidence/context within each paragraph for this. I've seen all three of these issues addressed in the news - resignations letter , book censorship , and terminations (poorly I might add). If all three inclusions become intermeshed in one or two paragraphs it seems to cause never ending edits. For example, the reasoning behind Emmons getting the termination letter I believe is now self supporting in the third paragraph without bring up the book censorship issue - those readers are still free to infer this because it's addressed in the second paragraph. Not sure if I'm communicating myself well here, sry. Theosis4u (talk) 03:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I understand now. I don't object to the intent - it is always the goal for articles to be NPOV. The problem is that the above offers far too much detail on the topic to pass Wikipedia guidelines. In other words, I think if this incident were the subject of an entire article we could go in this direction. As it stands, the above offers too much information for what should be a very short part of a larger article - this will lead to its rejection by other editors. These pages may prove helpful here: Wikipedia:Summary style, Wikipedia:Layout, and Wikipedia:Manual of Style. The goal would be something of the nature offered by ThaddeusB and Like.liberation in terms of length, style, and NPOV content. -Classicfilms (talk)

Should the header of "Wasilla" be broken into two sections - "Wasilla - City Council" and then "Wasilla - City Mayor" ? Theosis4u (talk) 02:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

FYI, I have posted the suggested version below, complete with references. Hopefully we can get this change implemented today. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

ThaddeusB - that's great but I don't see it. Could you place a pointer to the rewrite with refs? -Classicfilms (talk) 16:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've found it. The discussion has moved below to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sarah_Palin#Proposed_change_to_Wasilla_section

-Classicfilms (talk) 17:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I have suggested inserting the information about the attempted librarian firing controversy at Talk:Political_positions_of_Sarah_Palin#New_Section_Request:_Censorship because it obviously shows Sarah Palin's stance on Censorship and Freedom of Speech. User:Kelly referred me here saying the issue wasn't clear-cut. I disagree. The issue has been extensively reported on and is a key indication of her ability to protect the fundamental human rights of freedom of speech and freedom of the press. I request an immediate inclusion of the issue there.--Cdogsimmons (talk) 18:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll also post below. Here is the original Dec. 18, 1996 Frontiersman article which should be used as the primary source for this section. http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/06/breaking_news/doc48c1c8a60d6d9379155484.txt -Classicfilms (talk) 01:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE: This discussion moved to the section below. Please add comments there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sarah_Palin#Proposed_change_to_Wasilla_section -Classicfilms (talk) 21:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Book banning redlink

The book banning link should link to book banning, not book-banning. Any problem with making this change? --- RockMFR 02:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It should not say "book banning" at all, as those words are not found verbatim in any quotable source. The actual quote the recounts the event says "removing books" and should be used verbatim. Fcreid (talk) 02:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I created a redirect for "book-banning" since it is a plausible typographical error, but I agree that it should be "book banning". No opinion on the content issue of whether it should be rephrased. Dragons flight (talk) 02:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree on the grammar. Coemgenus 14:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Link Request for Librarian/book removal issue

Can we add a link in this section to Wasilla librarian letter of termination? I found this article very useful for fleshing out this issue. --Bertrc (talk) 14:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That article is up for deletion. Virtually all of the same ideas are discussed below at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sarah_Palin#Proposed_change_to_Wasilla_section

-Classicfilms (talk) 15:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

"morally or socially objectionable"

I propose that an important point from Anne Kilkenny (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/03/us/politics/03wasilla.html) be accurately quoted in the book banning question. I propose the following change based on the NYT article: CURRENT: According to Anne Kilkenny, a Democrat who observed the City Council, Palin also brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting, but did not follow through with the idea.[21] PROPOSED: According to Anne Kilkenny, a Democrat who observed the City Council, Palin also brought up the idea of banning some books, which she felt were morally or socially objectionable, at one meeting, but did not follow through with the idea. --Robapalooza (talk) 19:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

This topic moved to the section below a few days ago. Please read through the entire section, but the current draft is draft 8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sarah_Palin#Proposed_change_to_Wasilla_section

-Classicfilms (talk) 21:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Add information on Monegan firing

At the time Palin fired him, the governor said she wanted the department to move in a new direction. Later, after Monegan said he felt pressured to fire Wooten, Palin at a news conference said Monegan wasn't a team player, didn't do enough to fill trooper vacancies and battle alcohol abuse issues in rural Alaska.

Saki2 (talk) 02:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This section needs to be rewritten, or reverted to an earlier version, so that facts crucial to any summary of this issue are present. There were numerous sourced references included previously that described the investigative stage of this topic as occuring in the following order: 1. Governor Palin denied any pressure had been applied to fire Wooten. 2. The state legislature announced it was conducting an investigation. 3. Gov. Palin directs her Attornet General to conduct an internal investigation. 4. Gov. Palin admits that around two dozen contacts had been made regarding Wooten.

As modified, the article implies no initial denial, and that the Gov. admitted to the contacts prior to the announcement of the legislative investigation, rather than as a result of that announcement [8]. Removing key facts, and only those that imply the possibility of wrongdoing, in the name of maintaining this sections "summary" status has imparted a bias upon this section that is in opposition to the established facts. Placing the occurance of events into an accurate timeline, and including the fact that there was an initial denial, then, after the State announced an investigation was planned, an admission to over 20 contacts regarding Wooten would require the addition of only a few words, and result in a concise overview of the isuue, rather than a whitewashed version. 75.88.83.220 (talk) 04:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Paul

The site floppingaces.com has done [full encyclopedic and scholarly writeup on "Troopergate"] complete with links to the relevant court documents. I think it would be appropriate to simply refer the reader to that writeup. I would propose the sentence be added that refers the reader to that site or that wikipedia obtain permission to reprint the article in its entirety here. -- Robert 76.120.109.174 (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable source. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 09:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

As above, blog posts don't cut it. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I would think the important part would be whther the journalism attained the proper levels of journalistic research, fact checking and referencing. The source is irrelelevant if the information is complete, scholarly and correct. If the identical text appeared on the Washington Post and Floppingaces, would that text be more valuable from the newspaper? Given that the vast majority of newpapers are liberally slanted, this would impart a defacto liberal slant to this site. At any rate the story should be evaluated on the journalistic value of the piece. Floppingaces has linked to the actual official depositions and documents which this obviously POV article has not done. As it is, this article is spouting liberal POV and excluding important relevant facts. -- Robert12.23.96.197 (talk) 16:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Effectively refusing to print an accurate chronology and then asking the reader to go to a hyperpartisan blog for "facts" really doesn't cut. This section should have an accurate account of how this controversy came about.--BenA (talk) 12:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Saki12 has correctly summarized Palin's post hoc rationalization for the firing. If our article includes her contention, however, then it must also include this information from our daughter article on the dismissal: "Monegan responded on July 18 that the two most recent trooper graduating classes had the most recruits in years."

I also agree with the anon that the Sarah Palin article should include her initial statement, which she later had to retreat from. In our daughter article:

Initially, Palin denied that there had been any pressure on Monegan to fire Wooten, either from herself or from anyone in her administration.

I'll have to recheck the sources -- I think she initially denied any contacts, not just pressure, but whatever the specifics of the denial are, it should be included. JamesMLane t c 12:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Adding this information of her reasons for the termination of Monegan (including ineffectiveness in battling alcohol abuse) is important because the article earlier states that after the termination, "She then offered him an alternative position as executive director of the state Alcoholic Beverage Control Board, which he turned down.[83][84". Saki2 (talk) 13:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This is a level of detail more suitable for the spinout article on the dismissal and subsequent controversy. The section here is just a summary. Kelly ^hi! 13:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel an extended "he said/she said" session as to each parties perceived reasoning for the firing is appropo to a summary. Also not worthy of inclusion in a summarization are: facts about her offering him an alternate position, tidbits about his successor and his failings, or legal arguments being used to challenge the legislatures authority to conduct an investigation. All of those belong in the full, detailed, sub-article. All a concise, chronologically-correct, well-sourced summary need say is:

On July 11, 2008, Palin dismissed Public Safety Commissioner Walter Monegan, citing performance-related issues.[82] Monegan alleged he had been pressured to fire Palin’s former brother-in-law, Alaska State Trooper Mike Wooten, and that his dismissal was retaliation for his failure to do so.[85][86] Palin publicly denied that any pressure to fire Wooten had been applied on Monegan. On August 1, the Alaska Legislature hired an independent investigator to review the situation.[91] Palin then asked the Attorney General to launch his own internal investigation which led to her acknowledging that there had been over twenty contacts made by her administration relating to Wooten. Palin stated that most of those calls were made without her knowledge, and reiterated that she did not fire Monegan because of Wooten.[85][88] The legislative investigation is scheduled to be completed in October 2008.[85]

Tweak some verbage, add in a couple dates if you like, replace a couple references that were previously in the section, and I think this would make a much more accurate, easy-to-read, summarization of the issue 216.170.33.149 (talk) 14:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Paul

I endorse the summary given by 216.170.33.149. However, there are those that feel the Kopp detail is notable in its own right, so perhaps that should either be worked into the summary or placed elsewhere in the article. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Newsweek is reporting that the McCain campaign is trying to shut down the probe into the firing. This should be added.--BenA (talk) 12:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

That's not what the article says. It says the McCain campaign endorsed a letter calling for the removal of the lead investigator for making public comments about the investigation in a partisan way against the person being investigated (and the lead investigator, according to the article, has admitted to doing so). It also says that the guy who wrote the letter (but presumably not the McCain campaign) wants to go further and call into question the entire investigation for this incompetence. So it would be inaccurate to say that the McCain campaign is trying to shut down the probe into the firing. Parableman (talk) 13:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

That's not exactly what the article says either. Nowhere in the article does the lead investigator makes comments regarding his previous statements. I'm not sure where the word "incompetance" comes in... I love this quote form the Republican in charge of removing the head of the investigation: "If this has been botched up the way it has..."Spiff1959 (talk) 03:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

This controversy is now virtually always referred to in public discourse as "Troopergate." Perhaps that should be the title of this section at this point.--BenA (talk) 12:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

We need to tweak this sentence:

Palin stated that most of those calls were made without her knowledge, and reiterated that she did not fire Monegan because of Wooten, who is still employed as a state trooper.

This is a strong evidence to support the argument that Palin did not fire Monegan because of Wooten. If that was her goal, wouldn't Wooten have been history?

Regarding labeling this section with the highly POV term "TrooperGate" ... ah let me think ... No. Freedom Fan (talk) 16:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Public Safety Commissioner dismissal

This section should be removed from the article since it violates the NPOV. If you are going to talk about how she has questionable ethics in office, you should also mention it other politician's articles. For example, Obama's article should talk about how he got a discounted home loan for being a senator.24.117.138.162 (talk) 04:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Mentioning a current scandal does not have to violate the NPOV rule, but it is difficult to report it that way in the heat of the moment. Bringing out all relevant facts, and a listing of the various parties reactions to them could work. When saying the Commisioner was dismissed for allegedly treating a relative of hers badly, mention should be made of the specific charges. One of these, not mentioned so far, is that the dismissed man Tasered Palin's 10 year old nephew while off duty. Add this, properly sourced, and the response to the accusation.

Besides, everyone is talking about the dismissal right now; Wiki should provide all the facts, because they are going to be in demand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.89.68.24 (talk) 04:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Two replies to IP24: first, WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV are not the same. The presentation in the article is neutral. Second, we don't look at other articles to determine how this one should be edited. Tvoz/talk 05:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen this?Ferrylodge (talk) 05:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

me? Tvoz/talk 05:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh- I see what you're responding to. never mind. Tvoz/talk 05:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I was addressing IP24.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I would add, in reply to the anon, that Obama's article does mention that Rezko's involvement with Obama attracted media attention. One obvious difference is that, in l'affaire Monegan, the Legislature has opened a formal investigation, which elevates the matter into more prominence than mere media mutterings. JamesMLane t c 06:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no basis to remove this section. The article currently handles it is a very responsible way. If you have specific problems about it, please specify. However, removal is not an option. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

About Monegan— he has now said in the Anchorage paper that, for the record, Palin never, and no one else in her administration ever, tried to make him fire Trooper Wooten(her ex-brother-in-law). The article should reflect this, with the proper sourcing. Not sure how this jibes with his earlier statements. According to other articles in the same paper, Wooten is alleged to have: - used a Taser on Palin’s 10 year old nephew while off-duty - driven his state patrol car while drinking; -threaten to murder her father and sister for hiring a lawyer for her divorce from Wooten. Wooten was suspended, not fired; he was put under a court protective order . Investigation is proceeding. Palin may not have liked this person, but there seems some reason to think he might have been suspended even without that, pending investigation. These allegations should be added and sourced, along with the findings of the investigation, when that is completed. 65.89.68.24 (talk) 19:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Please make the following clarification to the last sentence of the first paragraph of this section:

Palin stated that most of those calls were made without her knowledge, and reiterated that she did not fire Monegan because of Wooten, who is still employed as a state trooper.

Demer, Lisa. Is Wooten a good trooper?, Anchorage Daily News (2008-07-27).

Otherwise the reader may be misled into believing that Wooten was actually fired. This statement is notable because it provides significant support for Palin's argument that the Public Safety Commissioner was not dismissed for failing to fire Wooten. This fact is supported by The Anchorage Daily News shown above, a related Wikipedia article, Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal, and by a statement on her web site. Thanks. Freedom Fan (talk) 00:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You may be right, but I'm not sure. Just because Wooten hasn't been fired doesn't necessarily mean that Governor Palin wouldn't have fired him if she could have. I think the Governor has a lot more power to hire and fire political appointees (like cabinet secretaries) than she does to hire and fire other employees like Wooten.Ferrylodge (talk) 01:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

True. But Monegan's replacement also did not fire Wooten. So why did she fire Monegan but not his replacement? Regardless this is a verifiable fact which should be part of the article. Freedom Fan (talk) 03:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Please be more clear on 'high approval rating'

"maintained a high approval rating throughout her term.[43]" can we please be a bit more specific and include some numbers? I heard some say she had the highest of any governor, if this is true (and I don't know if it is), that certainly warrants a mention.

Proposed change to Wasilla section

A number of editors have worked hard on expanding the library controversy/early firings information to better reflect all the facts. (See "Book Banning" secion above.) This is what we have come up with:

---

While Palin was mayor, she raised the subject of removing some books from the town's library. According to the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, Palin asked her three times, beginning before she was inaugurated, about removing books from the library if the need arose. In response, Emmons refused to consider "any type of censorship". At an October 1996 city council meeting, according to one Wasilla resident, Palin asked "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?", because some Wasilla residents felt the books contained inappropriate language. Emmons, who had received a request for her resignation from Palin four days prior, strongly rejected the idea for a second time. Palin later stated that the question had been rhetorical in nature. Ultimately, no books were removed from the library.

In October 1996, Palin asked the Wasilla police chief, public works director, finance director, and Emmons to resign, saying that she felt they didn't support her administration. She also instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters. In January 1997, Palin notified the police chief, Irl Stambaugh, and Emmons that they were being fired. She stated that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration, but declined to be more specific. She rescinded the firing of the librarian the next day, after community outcry, stating that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. The police chief, however, was fired and filed a lawsuit. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

---

These two paragraphs would replace the current 3rd paragraph of the "Wasilla" section. Although, I believe consensus has already been reached, I am reposting it (with references) to solicit further comment before asking it to be added to the main article.--ThaddeusB (talk) 15:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose because this phrase "who had received a request for her resignation from Palin four days prior" is out of context and does not reflect that she was terminated the same time as the police chief. It's confusing and should be omitted. Also, though it would require a little re-writing, the order of the two paragraphs should be reversed so that the chronology makes sense.--Paul (talk) 15:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The phrase in question was used to show that the letter came first since both happend in October, but I agree it is a little ackward. The 'book debate' came before the firings, so I thought this was the more logical order. Perhaps a rewrite to the order resignation, books, firings is in order? That would seem to solve both problems.

Oppose Appears to make a causal link between the book issue (which looks to be getting a little bit of undue weight) with the Palin's request for termination. After reading some of the sources both the Librarian and the police cheif actively supported her opponent for Mayor. Additionally, a city council member stated that one of the reason she was elected was for general change. Arzel (talk) 15:39, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

How about this?

Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin asked the Wasilla police chief, public works director, finance director, and librarian to resign, saying that she felt they didn't support her administration. In January 1997, Palin notified the police chief, Irl Stambaugh, and the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons that they were being fired. The police chief filed a lawsuit protesting his firing. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason. The firing of the librarian, was more controversial. According to Emmons, Palin had asked her three times about removing books from the library "because some Wasilla residents felt the books contained inappropriate language." Emmons refused to consider "any type of censorship". Palin later stated that the question had been rhetorical in nature. Ultimately, no books were removed from the library. Palin rescinded the firing of Emmons the day after her initial action, stating that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations.

It has all of same facts, but shows a better chronology.--Paul (talk) 15:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I support this section, though it is clear from the first section that the inquiries over banning books was more than a one time affair. I would suggest the following edit to the second proposal: "According to Emmons, Palin had asked her three times about removing books..." Joshdboz (talk) 15:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Your suggested change is fine with me. "three times" it is.--Paul (talk) 16:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Number of times implies that three is somehow significantly important, and strengthens the belief that the books were the reason she asked for termination (plus the bolding is a bit much). Additionally, the librarian was never fired from what I have read, only that she had said that she was going to fire her. So we cannot say that she was actually fired. Additionally for neutrality it should be noted that both the librarian and police cheif actively supported her opponent during the election for mayor. An additional minor aspect is the repeating of the first sentence later in the paragraph, this needs to be rewritten. Arzel (talk) 16:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, the word "fired" should be replaced with "terminated" in all instances. Terminate or termination of a position is the correct grammatical form. Arzel (talk) 16:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Drafts 1 through 5 and associated discussion

New version

After some thought about this, I think 3 short paragraphs are better than 1-2 long ones. This is the best way to show chronology. As such, here is my new proposal. I added a few details to the resignations part to better show Palin's reasoning.

---

Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin asked the Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons to resign, saying that she felt they didn't support her administration. All four had been part of the previous administration and Palin had been elected on a platform of change. A fifth director, John Cooper resigned when his job overseeing the museum was eliminated. She also instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters.

According to one Wasilla resident, later that month Palin asked Emmons at a city council meeting, "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?", because some Wasilla residents felt the books contained inappropriate language. Emmons strongly rejected the idea. According to Emmons, Palin asked her about this subject a total of three times, beginning before Palin was inaugurated. Palin later stated that the question had been rhetorical in nature and ultimately no books were removed from the library.

In January 1997, Palin notified Stambaugh and Emmons that they were being fired. She stated that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration, but declined to be more specific. She rescinded the firing of the librarian Emmons the next day, after community outcry, stating that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. The police chief Stambaugh, however, was fired and filed a lawsuit. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

---

It is probably a bit long, but I'm not sure which details to cut. Thoughts? --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Fired should be changed to terminated for proper current official terminology. Remove the "but declined to be more specific", implies that her reason wasn't valid. Arzel (talk) 16:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm okay with either your version (if you'll cut out "but declined to be more specific"), or my version. It is so tedious to have to devote so much of the article to this long ago little skirmish in the culture wars. My version is about 2/3 the size of yours, so I prefer it a little, but yours is a bit more neutral because it contains more of the facts from the Wasilla PDF.--Paul (talk) 16:41, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I have striken the "but declined" part. I'm not sure about 'terminated' as that seems unnecessarily harsh and firing is the more common term (even if not technically correct). If its really an issue, I can accept "that their employment was being terminated" as a replacement for "that they were being fired". (Along with changing the other mentions of fired to terminated, of course.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

One more change. The supplied reference does not support "after community outcry." Without a cite, it is not a NPOV and should be removed.--Paul (talk) 16:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Good catch - I apparently "SYNTHed" that in from somewhere with out realizing it. The actual source only says "caused a stir,' which doesn't mean much of anything. I am striking it. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Support: I have been following this section from the beginning of its development. This is the best version. I fixed two spelling errors but otherwise I think it is ready to add to the main page. -Classicfilms (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I still think "Terminated" is the proper form, perhaps "Dismissed", but I won't press the issue. I made one small change to ensure consistancy as well (librarian to Emmons and police cheif to Stambaugh in all instances). Arzel (talk) 18:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The Frontiersman just published the original Dec. 18, 1996 article which is the primary source referenced by the others. Since it looks like it was just posted, none of us would have known about it when the edits were made. I still support the section below - I just think that it needs to be tweaked to refer to the primary source. Can this be done quickly before it is added to the main article?

FROM THE ARCHIVE: Palin: Library censorship inquiries 'Rhetorical'

• http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/06/breaking_news/doc48c1c8a60d6d9379155484.txt

Frontiersman Dec. 18, 1996 -Classicfilms (talk) 01:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

---

I am withdrawing this request until people have had a chance to read the newly republished original source for the news articles written on this subject. Found here: [9] I personally think the existing text is fine, but should probably be tweaked to the language of the original article and resourced where appropriate. Please make any suggested changes below the current version. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

After extensive talk/negotiations in the Book Banning and Clarity about early firings sections, as well as some refinement here, I believe we have finally reached consensus and respectfully request the follow edit...

Please replace the current third paragraph of the Wasilla section that starts "In October 1996, she asked the Wasilla police chief..." with the following three paragraphs. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Current version:

Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin asked the Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons to resign, saying that she felt they didn't support her administration.All four had been part of the previous administration and Palin had been elected on a platform of change. A fifth director, John Cooper resigned when his job overseeing the museum was eliminated. She also instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters.

According to one Wasilla resident, later that month Palin asked Emmons at a city council meeting, "What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?", because some Wasilla residents felt the books contained inappropriate language. Emmons strongly rejected the idea. According to Emmons, Palin asked her about this subject a total of three times, beginning before Palin was inaugurated. Palin later stated that the question had been rhetorical in nature and ultimately no books were removed from the library.

In January 1997, Palin notified Stambaugh and Emmons that they were being fired. She stated that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration. She rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day stating that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. Stambaugh, however, was fired and filed a lawsuit. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Suggested changes: I would like to suggest that we modify the second paragraph only according to the primary 1996 source and focus on Emmons rather than what others said happened. I also used a direct quote from both Emmons and Palin in order to present both sides of the argument. Please feel free to restore deleted material or modify what I am suggesting here - in order to satisfy WP guidelines, it seems to me that we should focus on primary sources as much as possible. Here it is:

According to a 1996 article in the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman, Emmons stated that Palin twice discussed the question of library censorship with her. These discussions, which took place in October 1996, became public when Palin, herself, referred to them during an interview. Palin argued that she wanted to know how Emmons would react to the issue of censorship in a general sense but did not have a specific list of books in mind. Emmons stated that "I will fight anyone who tries to dictate what books can go on the library shelves [...] this is different than a normal book-selection procedure or a book -challenge policy [...] she was asking me how I would deal with her saying a book can't be in the library." Palin responded through a written statement that "many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature." She also later stated that "the issue was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy." Ultimately no books were removed from the library.

-Classicfilms (talk) 02:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If the footnote doesn't appear well, here is the source again: http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/06/breaking_news/doc48c1c8a60d6d9379155484.txt -Classicfilms (talk) 02:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposed changes to the 2nd paragraph. This is entirely too much detail and bumps up against WP:UNDUE. I support the three-paragraph version, above.--Paul (talk) 15:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

We need to include the original, primary source which was not available when that version was being hashed out. If this version is too long, tweak or trim it as I wrote above. But I would disagree with any version which does not make use of the primary source. The WP always encourages the use of primary sources. -Classicfilms (talk) 16:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia urges the use of secondary sources, not primary sources. Use of primary sources can lead to original research, which is a no-no.--Paul (talk) 16:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I think you are misreading the use of a primary source here. We are talking about using articles which describe the Frontiersman article over using the Frontiersman article. This is a different context for using a primary source.WP:No original research#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources doesn't say they can't be used but should be used on a case by case basis. The section still makes use of the current news articles which talk about the event - but to discard the original article which actually contains quotes by Emmons rather than comments about what people said she stated is misleading. As I wrote above, go ahead and restore portions of the second paragraph or delete the quotes - but I will not agree to a second paragraph which itself does not reference the original Frontiersman article. This is not original research - this is a responsible account of the event. -Classicfilms (talk) 17:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It not really a primary source just a much earlier secondary source. The current sources being used are mostly tertiary sources in reality. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Right. A primary source would, for example, be the actual letter Palin wrote or the transcript of the interview with either Emmons or Palin. Thanks ThaddeusB for clarifying this. -Classicfilms (talk) 17:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Second draft

Just to be clear, the current section on Sarah Palin's early days as mayor is 150 words long. I include it here just so we're all clear about what is under discussion:

In October 1996, she asked the Wasilla police chief, librarian, public works director, and finance director to resign, and instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters. In January 1997, Palin notified the police chief, Irl Stambaugh, and the town librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, that they were being fired. Palin said in a letter that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration. She rescinded the firing of the librarian, but not the police chief. The chief filed a lawsuit, but a court dismissed it, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason. According to Anne Kilkenny, a Democrat who observed the City Council, Palin also brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting, but did not follow through with the idea.

Now, there's a lot of problems with it, particularly with the last sentence. I proposed tacking on a 181-word paragraph on the library issue. ThaddeusB proposed replacing the above paragraph with two grafs, 263 words all together, on resignations, terminations and book removal. Theosis4u proposed a 689-word version and then we got back to 298 words with ThaddeusB again, and with Classicfilms' tweaks, we're at 365. The version I now propose below, with tweaks, is 386 words long. There will be objections, but in my opinion the length is inevitable, because the more disputed a subject is, the more editors have no choice but to stick with the precise wording of the sources they rely upon, which makes it impossible to rephrase events in a summary fashion.

Paul, it's true that the idea of outcry was not in the reference ThaddeusB cited, but it is in others, including this one -- http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515512.html -- so we should include it again. The specific wording is: "a wave of public support." This was covered earlier in the talk thread, and cited properly. The argument that Emmons was kept on because she agreed to merge with the museum is according to Palin only. What's more, the issue of the museum itself isn't essential to this discussion. In the tweaked version below, I've rewritten that sentence for brevity. I also think we can cut the sentence on the museum director, John Cooper.

But it seems necessary to include two additional facts, one from the recently republished Frontiersman article. 1) The librarian said Palin brought up a scenario where the library would be picketed, and asked her how she would feel about censorship then. That's stronger language than we've had evidence of so far, and deserves inclusion. Yes, only the librarian says it happened. But only Palin says her remarks were rhetorical. Just because only one source says something doesn't disqualify it from inclusion here, especially when we're talking about a tete-a-tete.

And we could get into it a lot more. The Wasilla library released this statement:

"This library holds censorship to be a purely individual matter and declares that – while anyone is free to reject for himself books and other materials of which he does not approve – he cannot exercise this right of censorship to restrict the freedom of others."

Which puts Palin's inquiries in a pretty bad light. But for many here, that will be going too far and getting too wordy, so for now I think we should just stick to tweaking the changes presently proposed.

I do have a second addition, however. Much has been made about Palin's prerogatives to fire city employees. Those editors who seem to support her actions have repeatedly justified them by saying that Emmons, Stambaugh et al had openly backed her opponent in the mayoral race. But by those arguments, Palin was acting illegally. Thanks to Theosis4u, we have the Wasilla Munical Code, which outlines the mayor's powers:

2.16.020 Power and duties of mayor.

A. The mayor is the chief administrator of the city, has the same powers and duties as those of a manager under AS 29.20.005, and shall: ...

4. Appoint, suspend or remove city employees and administrative officials, except as provided otherwise in AS Title 29 and the Wasilla Municipal Code; http://www.codepublishing.com/AK/Wasilla/Wasilla02/Wasilla0216.html#2.16.020

So the mayor is bound by AS Title 29, which is the title on Municipal Government. Under the chapter Municipal Officers and Employees, and the section Prohibited Discrimination, we find:

AS 29.20.630. Prohibited Discrimination.

(a) A person may not be appointed to or removed from municipal office or in any way favored or discriminated against with respect to a municipal position or municipal employment because of the person's race, color, sex, creed, national origin or, unless otherwise contrary to law, because of the person's political opinions or affiliations. (The bold is mine.) http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/Statutes/Title29/Chapter20/Section630.htm

This is why Palin never said she fired them because they had supported Stein. She only said she did not feel she had their full support. With the second sentence in the above version, we are leaving the reader to infer that Palin fired them for their political affiliations, and that such action was justified. If that was indeed her reasoning, then she acted illegally, and we should either remove the sentence entirely or qualify what we're suggesting here. I have made those changes in the 2nd sentence of the version I propose below:

---

Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin asked the Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons to resign. All four had been part of the previous administration and Palin had been elected on a platform of change; however, it is illegal under Alaska law to fire city employees for their political affiliations, and Palin only said she felt they didn't support her administration. She also instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters.

According to a 1996 article in The Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman, Emmons said that Palin twice discussed the question of library censorship with her. These discussions, which took place in October 1996, became public when Palin herself referred to them during an interview. Palin argued that she wanted to know how Emmons would react to the issue of censorship in a general sense, but did not have a specific list of books in mind.

Emmons said, "I will fight anyone who tries to dictate what books can go on the library shelves." The librarian explained: "This is different than a normal book-selection procedure or a book-challenge policy," adding that Palin "was asking me how I would deal with her saying a book can't be in the library." Emmons said Palin raised the possibility of picketing the library in the same discussion. Palin responded in a written statement that "many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature." She also said later that "the issue was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy." Ultimately no books were removed from the library.

In January 1997, Palin notified Stambaugh and Emmons that they were being fired. She stated that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration. She rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day, after a wave of public support for the librarian, saying that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support her. Stambaugh, however, was fired and filed a lawsuit. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Like.liberation 17:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Support - Thanks Like.liberation. This is a great version. I support it. -Classicfilms (talk) 17:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for giving this another try and finding the correct sourcing for the public outcry bit. However, I have a couple objections:

1. The whole "illegal under Alaska law" thing has to go. The jobs in question are non-partisan and there is no evidence to believe that they were fired for the political affiliation. I am pretty sure the law is referring only to one's political party; And a judge later ruled that Palin did have the right to fire someone for political reasons. Also use a primary source (the law itself) is original research - none of our newspaper articles claimed it would be illegal, so we shouldn't either.
2. There is no reason to split the 2nd paragraph into 2 and I am confident this info can be conveyed in less words.

I'll give it another stab here in a sec. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I have to agree these are fair points. Yes, another draft would then be appreciated. -Classicfilms (talk) 17:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggested changes:

1. Remove: "however, it is illegal under Alaska law to fire city employees for their political affiliations, and Palin only said she felt they didn't support her administration" improperly implies firings were for partisan political purposes.
2. Remove: "She also instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters." Irrelevant to the issue at hand and in this context unfairly implies that she is a "censorship freak."

These changes would make it more neutral.--Paul (talk) 17:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

These are also fair suggestions which I support. -Classicfilms (talk) 17:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You bet, ThaddeusB. I agree that we should get the word count down, and I look forward to the next version.

I think you're misinterpreting the judge's ruling in the Stambaugh case though. His case was dismissed in federal court after a three-year process, but we have no evidence that the judge said Palin could fire him for political reasons. Only that she could fire him.

Noting Palin's careful language, we should be just as careful what we suggest about why they were fired. She always says it was about support, never the fact that the directors had worked under Stein.

If we’re going to be so careful about suggesting causal chains, let’s apply the same rigor equally across the board. Plenty of articles have suggested the librarian was almost terminated for refusing to consider removing books, but we’re going with that theory. We should drop the other as well.Like.liberation 18:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Paul, the present version suggests that she fired them for political reasons, by noting their affiliation with the former mayor. We need to drop that, or include her saying that she didn't do it for political reasons. Why? Because she couldn't.

The sentence about policy heads needing her approval before talking to the press is not irrelevant. It's important. Not everything in these paragraphs has to do with censorship and not everything has to. In them, we're talking about big changes Palin made or tried to make early in her mayoral career. The "gag order" as it was called was one such change, and considered just as newsworthy at the time as the resignations, terminations and inquiries as to book removal. It's verifiable, notable and an NPOV fact that's now in the proper place. There's no reason to drop it.Like.liberation 18:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

LL...

1. The draft version holds that she was elected to effect change, and instituted house cleaning upon taking office. This is not necessarily political. Including the "illegal under Alaska law" material is suggestive when there is no proof that there was any legal conflict at all. It's got to go.
2. No one puts material into an article just because it is "newsworthy," especially not biographical articles. This multi-paragraph section is only here because we are dealing with the "censorship" issue. As I said above, in this context including this material unfairly implies that she is a "censorship freak," and implies there was a connection between the library issue and the talking to the press issue. That's pure supposition. Its inclusion betrays a POV when we are supposed to have a NPOV.

I think the most recent draft is accurate and mostly balanced. I would lean toward supporting it if these two items are removed.--Paul (talk) 18:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Paul, Changes that one is elected to make are necessarily political, and Palin's so-called house-cleaning involved throwing the administrative apparatus of a small town into upheaval. There was a legal conflict, and it was embodied in Stambaugh's law suit, and it had a legal resolution in federal court. Secondary sources also cite the formation of a group called Concerned Citizens of Wasilla, which challenged his firing.

This multigraf section is meant to address a number of issues, all of them pertinent to the early days of Palin's mayoral tenure. Censorship was not the only one, although it remains important. We have done our best to strip it of implications, and keep it as fair as possible, based on the facts at our disposal that we have articulated, together, in the most neutral way we can. To exclude them would be another sort of POV, in a graf about censorship ...

We're not implying any connection between talking to the press and library censorship. I can't imagine that ThaddeusB meant that, and I haven't heard anyone else here interpret it that way. We just can't give every sentence its own paragraph. Please make this a little easier. Everyone is compromising.

Like.liberation 20:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

This conversation has been overtaken by events. I'm sure you've seen ThaddeusB's draft #4 and my support thereof. It omits the lecturing about "illegal under Alaska law" and re-phrases the press issue to make it less censorship-linked. Although, as I mentioned below, I think the "circling the library" bit is piling on and only has a single source, we all need to get this behind us and move to other issues in the article needing attention. You are right, we all have to compromise, and we all have done so. Thanks for your hard work on this section of the article.--Paul (talk) 20:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Third times a charm?

Here is what a have come up with:--ThaddeusB (talk) 18:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Palin was elected on a platform of change and wasted no time starting on that agenda. Shortly after taking office in October 1996, she eliminated the museum overseer position and asked the Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons to resign, saying that she felt they didn't support her administration. Palin called the request, which was accompanied by a request for updated resumes, a way to find out who supports her as mayor. She also instituted a temporary policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters until they got to know her administration's policies.

Accoring to Emmons, Palin twice discussed the question of library censorship with her - briefly in early October then in detail on October 28th. Palin asked if Emmons would object to censorship to which Emmons replied "Yup and ... it would not be just me ... the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) would get involved, too." Palin also asked about the possibility of people circling the library in protest to which Emmons replied "it would definitely be a problem the ACLU would take on then." In early December, Palin was the first to speak about the issue publically, using it as an example of conservations she'd had with her department heads. She stated that "many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature" and that it "was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy." Ultimately no books were removed from the library.

In January 1997, Palin notified Stambaugh and Emmons that they were being fired. She stated that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration. She rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day, after a wave of public support for Emmons, stating that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. Stambaugh, however, was fired and filed a lawsuit. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Comments/Suggestions I reworked the first paragraph to address the concerns above. I left in no talking to reporters line, but changed it as the original newspaper article called it a temporary measure until she got to know the dept. heads. I don't think it is necessary, but its debatable.--ThaddeusB (talk) 18:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the middle paragraph is still too long. I would consider leaving out either the precise timing of the meetings or the circling the library line since neither adds much. Palin's response could also be shortened. Other thoughts? --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It's okay with me to remove the "circling the library" sentence, it's in the footnoted source and anyone interested in more detail can easily find it. Other than that, this looks fine.--Paul (talk) 19:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The Seattle Times did a front page article on Palin's first year as Wasilla's mayor.[10] Perhaps it could be of some use? Of particular note is that after the attempted firing of the librarian and successful firing of the sheriff and museum chief, 2 of the remaining 4 department chiefs quit and all three of the people asked to replace the museum chief quit rather than take the position. Not to mention the article provides some examples how the police chief didn't support the administration. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

4th draft

ThaddeusB, this looks good. There are a couple spelling tweaks I made, and mild rephrasals. I'll drop the bit about Alaska law, but I can't get on board if we don't mention the picketing, as per below.

Palin was elected on a platform of change and began to implement that agenda almost immediately. Shortly after taking office in October 1996, she eliminated the position of museum director and asked the Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons to resign, saying that she felt they did not support her administration. Palin called the request, which was accompanied by a request for updated resumes, a way to find out who supported her. She also instituted a temporary policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters, which she justified by saying they needed to become better acquainted with her policies.

According to Emmons, Palin twice discussed the question of library censorship with her -- first in early October then in detail on October 28th. Palin asked if Emmons would object to censorship, to which Emmons replied she would, and that "it would not be just me ... the American Civil Liberties Union would get involved, too." Palin also raised the possibility of people circling the library in protest, to which Emmons replied "it would definitely be a problem the ACLU would take on then." In early December, Palin was the first to speak about the issue publicly, using it as an example of discussions she'd had with her department heads. She said that "many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature" and that it "was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy." Ultimately no books were removed from the library.

In January 1997, Palin notified Stambaugh and Emmons that they were being fired. She said she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration. She rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day, after a wave of public support for Emmons, stating that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. Stambaugh, however, was fired and filed a lawsuit. A court dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Like.liberation 19:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

All changes are improvements. I support this version. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Support. Excellent work, I fully support this version. Thanks to Like.liberation and ThaddeusB for your work on this. -Classicfilms (talk) 20:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

By the way, there was one spelling error which I corrected. -Classicfilms (talk) 20:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment The source does not say she wanted the letters of resignations because they didn't support Palin, but rather she wanted the letters to find out who supports her. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the bit about circling the library is unnecessary piling-on, but consensus means compromise, and thus I support this version. Bobblehead, do you want to suggest a re-wording?--Paul (talk) 20:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

How about: "Shortly after taking office in October 1996, she eliminated the position of museum director and asked the Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons to resign, saying that she wanted to find out who supported her administration." --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

"Palin was elected on a platform of change and began to implement that agenda almost immediately." Since the next sentence gives the chronology of "almost immediately." Less wordy. Kaisershatner (talk) 20:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin eliminated the position of museum director and asked for the resignations of Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons. Palin stated that she felt they did not support her administration.(cite) Kaisershatner (talk) 20:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Palin was elected on a platform of change. Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin eliminated the position of museum director and asked for both letters of resignation and updated resumes from Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons. Palin described this as a way to find out who supported her. She instituted a temporary policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters, stating the staff needed to become better acquainted with her policies. Kaisershatner (talk) 21:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

5th Draft

Edits for word choice/length. I haven't chased down the refs but this draft assumes the correctness of Bobblehead's view about the resignation letters, so correct that if it is wrong: Kaisershatner (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Palin was elected on a platform of change. Shortly after taking office in October 1996, she eliminated the position of museum director and asked for updated resumes and resignation letters from Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons. Palin stated she wanted to find out who supported her. She instituted a temporary policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters, stating they first needed to become better acquainted with her policies.

According to Emmons, she and Palin twice discussed the question of library censorship—first in early October then in detail on October 28. Emmons stated Palin asked her if she would object to censorship, and Emmons replied "it would not be just me ... the American Civil Liberties Union would get involved, too." Palin raised the possibility of people circling the library in protest, to which Emmons replied "it would definitely be a problem the ACLU would take on then." In early December, Palin spoke publicly about the issue, using it as an example of a discussion she'd had with her department heads. Palin said, "many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature," and said adding that censorship "was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy." No books were removed from the library.

In January 1997, Palin notified Stambaugh and Emmons that they were being fired, stating she believed the two did not fully support her administration. She rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day, after a wave of public outcry, and stated that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. Stambaugh was fired and filed a lawsuit, which was later dismissed by a court finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Comment: For the most part, I support these changes. There is one sentence that I would like to see tweaked for style. It is in the second paragraph:

" Palin said' many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature,' and said that censorship "was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy."

Using the word "said" twice in the same sentence is a little clunky. I would suggest something like: Palin said that 'many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature,' and that censorship "was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy."

If this sentence is tweaked a bit, I will support this draft. -Classicfilms (talk) 21:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Kaisershatner, if you want the exact wording of one source, here's ADN referring to the resignations:

Palin told the Daily News back then the letters were just a test of loyalty as she took on the mayor's job...

http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515512.html

I agree with Classicfilms that the "said... said" could be reworded. Maybe one of those "said...adding that" formulations. In all, I support. Thanks for the edit. At this point, we've got something publishable. Maybe there's a better way to word it, but the agreement we've got seems most important. Like.liberation 22:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm.. The first sentence looks tacked on.. Perhaps something like "After being elected on a platform of change, Palin eliminated the position of museum director and asked for updated resumes and resignation letters from Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons shortly after taking office in October 1996. Palin stated she wanted to find out who supported her." --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:13, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Bobblehead, I think we can leave that first sentence. It's an important thought, and it could just as well stand alone. Palin was a change candidate, that's why she beat Stein. Or as Michelet used to say, beginning his courses on history: "England, messieurs, is an island." Everything else that follows results from that, so we don't need to demote it by making it a dependent clause. Like.liberation 23:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It is an important thought and one that should be included in the article, but its location reads as if it is tacked on, more as a counter to the remainder of the paragraph, than an actual encyclopedic addition to the article. Also, I'm wondering if the "platform of change" would be more appropriate for the preceding paragraph that is actually about the election, rather than the paragraph about her first actions as mayor. It just seems odd to me that the article would say that she won the election in one paragraph (which includes arguments she used against Stein), but then say in the next that she was elected on a platform of change. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 23:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I think I agree with Bobblehead that the "platform of change" works better appended to the preceding para or inserted higher up in that para. It doesn't really directly go to the subject of this paragraph/s, ie her early actions in office. Looking at the context within the larger article for the first time, I would support removing the first sentence "Palin...change" and putting it into her campaign for mayor para. Above, I made the small style modification for review. Kaisershatner (talk) 00:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The version 4 first sentence read better. Why not just use it instead? "Palin was elected on a platform of change and began to implement that agenda almost immediately"--Paul (talk) 00:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm also concerned about the last sentence of the second paragraph "No books were removed from the library". It also comes across as tacked on. While I do think it is important to acknowledge that no books were removed from the library, perhaps a rewording is in order? Something like "In the end, no books were removed from the library" or "After the two discussions in October, the subject was not revisited and no books were removed from the library." --Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

6th draft

I pushed the change platform into the proceeding paragraph and added a tiny detail. Slight rewording on the resignation line for readability. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

In 1996, Palin challenged and defeated incumbent John Stein for the office of mayor, running on a platform of change. In the campaign, she vowed to replace "stale leadership" and criticized Stein for what she called wasteful spending and high taxes. She also highlighted issues such as abortion, religion and gun control. Though the position of mayor is non-partisan, the state Republican Party ran advertisements on her behalf. During her first term, the state Republican Party began grooming her for higher office.

Shortly after taking office in October 1996 Palin began to implement the change she'd promised. She eliminated the position of museum director and asked for updated resumes and resignation letters from Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons. Palin stated this request was to find out who supported her. She instituted a temporary policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters, stating they first needed to become better acquainted with her policies.

According to Emmons, she and Palin twice discussed the question of library censorship -- first in early October then in detail on October 28th. Emmons stated Palin asked her if she would object to censorship, and Emmons replied "it would not be just me ... the American Civil Liberties Union would get involved, too." Palin raised the possibility of people circling the library in protest, to which Emmons replied "it would definitely be a problem the ACLU would take on then." In early December, Palin spoke publicly about the issue, using it as an example of a discussion she'd had with her department heads. Palin said, "many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature," adding that censorship "was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy." No books were removed from the library.

In January 1997, Palin notified Stambaugh and Emmons that they were being fired, stating she believed the two did not fully support her administration. She rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day, after a wave of public outcry, and stated that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. Stambaugh was fired and filed a lawsuit, which was later dismissed by a court finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

On January 30, 1997, signed letters from Palin were given to Emmoms and Stambaugh stating, "I do not feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the city of Wasilla. Therefore I intend to terminate your employment..." The three met to discuss the situation the next day. Palin rescinded the firing of Emmons after meeting with her and what Anchorage Daily News called "a wave of public support for Emmons." Palin stated that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. Stambaugh was fired as planned and filed a lawsuit which was later dismissed by a court that found the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason, including a political one.

Hope you don't mind, but I consolidated the referencing for the last sentence into one. The reference at the end of the sentence was the same one at the middle of the sentence, so the middle one was redundant. One question though, shouldn't the sentence end with ", including a political one." That is part of the judge's ruling, so it seems odd to just leave it off. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 00:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I'm gone for a day and your almost back to what I purposed earlier. Theosis4u (talk) 00:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

---

I've refactored a lengthy discussion on the book censorship paragraph to here --Bobblehead ^(rants) 04:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

---

On the third paragraph. (1) "In January 1997," should be "On January 30th 1997". This really sets the time frame between the book situation and the "intend to terminate your employmen" letters. And again, we should use the language of the letter. You have, "that they were being fired". I think what I wrote earlier is the most accurate description. (2) : This should not exist as is. "She rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day, after a wave of public outcry, " We can't substaniate that it was the "public outcry" that lead to Palin's change of mind. The ordering of the events would leave one to think so. I've yet to see what the evidence of "public outcry" is. This all occurred in the course of 24 hours remember. I suggest this instead:

On January 30th 1997, signed letters from Palin were dropped off at Emmoms and Stambaugh's desk stating,"I do not feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the city of Wasilla. Therefore I intend to terminate your employment..." It referenced Feburary 13 as their last day. The next day the three met briefly at the Wasilla City Hall in the afternoon to discuss the situation. Palin also called them twice later before making her decision. It has been reported that there was "public outcry" to the letters. Palin announced her decision later that day, stating she now felt that Emmons supported her but didn't feel the same about Stambaugh. Palin claimed she now had Emmons' assurance that she was behind her and would support her efforts to merge the library and museum operations. Palin announced though that Stambaugh would be terminated. Stambaugh filed a lawsuit believing he had a contract that prohibited the city from firing him without cause. A court later dismissed the suit, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.

Theosis4u (talk) 01:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I have completely reworked the last paragraph. Let me know what you think.--ThaddeusB (talk) 02:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think your third paragraph is now the best writeup on this situation - even compared against all the sources on it. Very good job! I believe it describes the situation very accurately and from a NPOV. But.. still leaves just enough content for those that want to say there's a conspiracy to have enough to look into it - without wikipedia giving any actual weight to it. Theosis4u (talk) 03:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Definitely an improvement on what was there. One question though, is the "All three met the next day" sentence necessary? The next sentence indicates that Palin met with Emmons and the sentence about Stambaugh could be modified to say that after meetings with Stambaugh and separately with his lawyer that Stambaugh was still terminated.. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a reference about a meeting with Stambaugh and an attorney on that Friday? I haven't seen that one yet. My purposed sentence comes from this , "The three met briefly at Wasilla City Hall Friday afternoon, and Palin called them twice at Stambaugh's home before making the decision." Theosis4u (talk) 03:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Good rewrite, ThaddeusB, although I agree with Bobblehead that the next-day meeting could probably go. Like.liberation 03:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Like.liberation (talk • contribs)

I believe the meeting is vital to an accurate summary of the situation. With a meeting and phone calls after the letter about the situation paints a different picture compared to someone who sends the letter and then terminates with no discussion. Especially in light that for one employee she changed her mind and for the other she did not. Theosis4u (talk) 03:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I original didn't have this sentence and mentioned the meetings separately. It was actually less wordy this way. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Lets look at it another way. If your boss tells you on thurs. that he might fire you tomorrow and he'll let you know at the end of the day and then walks off. If he then talks with you about it three times on Friday before his decision compared to not talking to you at all - would their be a different POV implied to your manager based upon the two circumstances? Theosis4u (talk) 04:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The meetings should be included, it's just the how that is of concern. As an example, if the rescinding sentence were re-written as such: "Palin rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day after meeting with her and what Anchorage Daily News called "a wave of public support for Emmons." As far as a source about meeting with Stambaugh and his lawyer, see this memo from Palin. According to the memo the meeting was with Stambaugh and his lawyer. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 04:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow! That turn allot of what the Chief said in his interviews, doesn't it? I would offer that we stick with my recommend sentences about the "wave of support" as well as the meetings but include reference that the Chief had legal counsel. Theosis4u (talk) 04:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The memo certainly gives Palin's interpretation of what happened.;) The chief's interpretation is covered here. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 04:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Every source prior to that one (date Sept. 7 2008) has the Chief claiming he was never given a reason. Either he was lying in all the sources or he was reported on inaccurately. Theosis4u (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The follow change would be OK by me. The only problem is that it is a very slight synth to say that "no resolution was reached." I mean it is quite apparent, but no source actually says those words. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

On January 30, 1997, signed letters from Palin were given to Emmoms and Stambaugh stating, "I do not feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the city of Wasilla. Therefore I intend to terminate your employment..." Palin rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day after meeting with her and what Anchorage Daily News called "a wave of public support for Emmons." Palin stated that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. Palin also spoke with Stambaugh at least three times about the matter, but ultimately no resolution was reached and he was fired as planned. Stambaugh filed a lawsuit which was later dismissed by a court that found the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason, including a political one.

Perhaps eliminate "ulitmately no resolution was reached and" then? I agree that it's quite apparent. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 04:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

You're right, it isn't really needed. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm good with the change. Nice job. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 06:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Book censorship discussion

Ok, this new source you've found is mentioning an existing policy about citizens being able to object to library material. I don't understand why the librarian is freaking out and talking about the ACLU? We know from the ex-mayor that Palin was inquiring about the issue because people had objections about inappropriate language in some of the books. Why didn't the librarian just mention the existing policy and that was the procedure to handle questions about library materials? It couldn't be that the librarian didn't like Palin and was dishing out some out fashion attitude? With this new reference that you found, I'm really starting to believe this is nothing but a non-issue now. Theosis4u (talk) 01:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Whoa! I also missed this: Emmons said in the conversations with now-Mayor Palin in October, she reminded her again that the city has a policy in place. “But it seamed clear to me that wasn't really what she was talking about anyhow,” Now it is Emmons OPINION that Palin was talking about giving her a list of books to remove instead of asking about the book challenge policy?--Paul (talk) 01:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Seems like an attitude issue. Theosis4u (talk) 01:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The article makes it rather clear that Emmons was under the impression that Palin was not asking about submitting books to be reviewed under the existing policy, but rather that Palin intended to submit a list of books to her that Palin wanted the library to stop carrying. Is this a she said-she said instance, yes, but there's no reason to take Palin's word over that of the librarian's... --Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

And what is the reason for taking the librarian's word over Palin's?--Paul (talk) 02:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that we are... Palin has admitted that she discussed book censorship of with the librarian. The only difference between the two stories is that Palin says it was purely hypothetical, while Emmons was under the impression it was not. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Even if it was not hypothetical, all the librarian had to do was tell Palin to follow the policy about submitting a complaint in regards to the materials. End of story, right? Theosis4u (talk) 02:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Tell me this. What is the difference between "book censorship" and a policy that allows books to be removed or placed only in certain locations within the library? This whole situation needs to be reviewed for complete removal. Theosis4u (talk) 02:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me just call it for what it very well could be. The librarian was activity using the "book censorship" term politically against Palin to either give her attitude (she support other mayor) or maintain some job protection in light of the "please resign letter". There is no difference between "book censorship" and what the library policy allows for citizens to bring up objections about materials. The librarian was simply sidestepping the issue with Palin when she could of simply told Palin about the policy in place. Theosis4u (talk) 02:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Heh. The difference is that if the policy is followed it is the librarian's decision if the book is to be removed, while the discussion Palin had with Emmons was more in line with a mayor telling the librarian which books to remove, thus done outside the policy. Also, it should be noted that the source rather clearly says that it was Palin that brought up book censorship and not the librarian. Palin was the one that used it as an example of her having a discussion with her department heads in front of the state liquor board... --Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, Palin is new in office. Citizens inquired about certain books. New mayor asks about library and librarians policy on the issue. Librarian say, "“This is different than a normal book-selection procedure or a book-challenge policy,” Emmons stressed Saturday. “She was asking me how I would deal with her saying a book can't be in the library.” Come on, this is a joke. The non-confrontational response to Palin would of been. "Your welcome to fill out the forms yourself to request the review but the decision is given by the library system." I believe the policy allowed you to challenge it and go above the local librarian. So, I'm still at a lost why this is even an issue unless we are making the claim that new local mayor seems to follow up on her citizens concerns. Plus, the librarians quote above seems an opinion not back by direct reference to any of the quotes she offered from Palin. Theosis4u (talk) 03:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Theosis4u, are you even reading the source, or are you just applying your own bias and inferring what was said? Seriously.. Palin did not ask how one goes about removing a book from the library, but rather "Palin said she asked Emmons how she would respond to censorship." This is not a concerned citizen submitting a request to have a book removed from the library, but rather a government official telling a library which books it can not carry. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think your inferring yourself here. I'll admit I am doing a little inferring myself based upon the ex-mayors reference that he knew/though that she was inquiring about citizens complaining about inappropriate language. I don't think your quote actually is clear cut by itself as saying "Palin asked the librarian if she would respect her personal requests to remove books from the library." I think the librarian was saying just enough in her summary of Palin's words to let others infer what you are. Theosis4u (talk) 03:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of inferring and supposing going on here. The source for "no books were removed" really says this:

Were any books censored banned? June Pinell-Stephens, chairwoman of the Alaska Library Association's Intellectual Freedom Committee since 1984, checked her files Wednesday and came up empty-handed. Pinell-Stephens also had no record of any phone conversations with Emmons about the issue back then. Emmons was president of the Alaska Library Association at the time.

They obviously looked at the formal book remove process to see if this controversy resulted in removing any books. It seems there is very little rhetorical or logical distance between the new Mayor discussing library censorship policy with the librarian, and the existing formal method for removing books from the library. I think there is much less than meets the eye to this controversy.--Paul (talk) 04:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Ummm. Your inference is not supported by the source. We simply can not apply that kind of interpretation to the sources or else we get into the original research realm.. The source says that Palin told them that she asked the librarian what she thought about censorship. The source also indicates that Palin was aware of the library's policy:

Emmons said the current Wasilla policy, which she described as written in more general terms than the borough's, also worked procedurally in a book-challenge case last year. Emmons said then-council-woman Palin was distressed about the issue when it came up, indicating she was aware of the city's book-challenge policy.

Emmons said in the conversations with now-Mayor Palin in October, she reminded her again that the city has a policy in place. “But it seamed clear to me that wasn't really what she was talking about anyhow,” Emmons added. “I just hope it doesn't come up again.”

On a side note, whoever typed up that reprint really needs to work on their spelling.;) --Bobblehead ^(rants) 04:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Bobblehead. I think the reference to the city council meeting implies enough to state Palin did know something about a policy. I'm still not sure of how we go from that to the implications that Emmons makes here though, '“But it seamed clear to me that wasn't really what she was talking about anyhow,”". What's their to report about that except using the direct quote of Emmons and let the reader to decide to determine what they will of it? [by the way, who has any respect for reporters to tell a straight story after investigating the issues behind Palin? :) ]Theosis4u (talk) 04:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the current wording does a pretty good job of indicating that Palin agrees with what was said in the meeting, just that she disagrees with the interpretation that Emmons had. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 05:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion (and this is just my opinion and is not for the article), based on all the evidence, there were personality conflicts between Palin and Emmons/Stambaugh and that is the main reason she wanted them out. She simply had trouble working with them and the firings had little to do with politics or issues. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

7th draft

Wow! Quite a bit of text here... I looked through all of the above and put together what appears to be the 7th draft you all have agreed upon. If I have missed a change or a point, it is due to the amount of text above rather than an attempt to change anything - so please fix it. Otherwise, it looks like we have a section ready for the main article. It would be nice to see this added today. What does everyone think? -Classicfilms (talk) 11:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I made a minor grammatical correction in paragraph four, adding a definite article (the) and itals. It was: Anchorage Daily News. I changed it to: the Anchorage Daily News. -Classicfilms (talk) 11:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Another grammatical point:

The beginning of the first line of the 4th paragraph currently reads:

"On January 30, 1997, signed letters from Palin were given to Emmoms and Stambaugh stating..."

It should be changed to:

"Palin gave signed letters to Emmoms and Stambaugh on January 30, 1997 which stated..."

-Classicfilms (talk) 11:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Looks pretty good, but about the "groomed" reference. I read it start to finish, and it's pretty thin on this point (comes up in last section only, nice work by the headline writers). Three people on the record, one of them a Palin opponent: "The national Republican Party was encouraging local party officials to groom a new generation of candidates, officials say. [emphasis added] Palin was an obvious selection, say local party officials Roy and June Burkhart of Willow. [emphasis added] Roy is head of the District 15 party, while June sits on the state party's executive board...[Palin] headed straight to her next race, entering the 2002 Republican primary for lieutenant governor. The winner was going to run at the side of Frank Murkowski...Officially, the party under chairman Randy Ruedrich remained neutral. But it didn't always feel that way to Palin's opponents, [Gail] Phillips said recently. [emphasis added] "It was Randy that really talked the Republican Party into her being the bright and shining star, to the point there was a lot of preference within the leadership," Phillips said. "Boy, it was there. The three of us would discuss it among ourselves. We were saying, hey, how about experience?" The citation supports "Some local Palin supporters and one of Palin's political opponents thought Palin was being groomed for higher office by the state Republican Party." Maybe not a really big deal, but the article says something different than a broad assertion that the Republicans were grooming her. Kaisershatner (talk) 13:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a fair critique (sorry to have missed it). Perhaps it would be best for you to offer a rewrite of the section for review and if we achieve consensus, we can make the change. -Classicfilms (talk) 14:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, instead of "During her first term, the state Republican Party began grooming her for higher office," how about "Some local officials and one of Palin's opponents have stated they believed Palin was being groomed for higher office by the state Republican Party." NB I hardly consider this a significant part of her career (is it notable for high-ranking officials to have started as low-ranking ones that were groomed by the party?) but I guess it doesn't hurt to include it if it is sourced and objectively factual.Kaisershatner (talk) 14:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Just an added thought that struck me - wasn't there a minor local offical, state senator or something, whom the Democrats groomed for higher office by giving him a choice speaking slot at their convention? What ever happened to that guy? :) Kaisershatner (talk) 14:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with "During her first term, the state Republican Party began grooming her for higher office," (what's wrong with it?) but I do object to "Some local officials and one of Palin's opponents have stated they believed Palin was being groomed for higher office by the state Republican Party." This is an ugly sentence, and almost weasely (have stated they believed). I'd rather omit the whole thing rather than put in the "sentence designed by a committee"!--Paul (talk) 15:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey Paul - the problem with the original sentence is that the citation doesn't support it. You are right about my horrible rewrite though. Kaisershatner (talk) 15:39, 8 September 2008

I think the "Fresh faced launced Palin" source supports the original sentence: "The high-profile support from local Republicans was hardly surprising, however. Party officials say Palin was already being groomed for bigger and better things, even as she talked about sewers and road-paving projects. In Alaska's fastest-growing region, Palin was the fresh young face of the suddenly dominant Republicans."--Paul (talk) 15:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey Paul - who are the "party officials" the author means? I think it's the two in the final section plus the one Palin opponent. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly? Kaisershatner (talk) 16:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I read it as Republican party officials. Who else would know? I can't imagine why we wouldn't include this.--Paul (talk) 16:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

8th draft

Adding that I support current version per Thaddeus below, we can add this and argue about the nits being groomed after. Kaisershatner (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

• I've added "term limits" to the list of items Palin ran on, as it is the same sentence in the NYTs article used to source "abortion religion and gun control".--Paul (talk) 15:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Edit completed.--Paul (talk) 00:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Please replace the two paragraphs at 2.1 "Wasilla" which currently read:

In 1996, Palin challenged and defeated incumbent John Stein for the office of mayor.[19] In the campaign, she criticized Stein for what she called wasteful spending and high taxes,[20] and highlighted issues such as abortion, religion and gun control.[21] Though the position of mayor is non-partisan, the state Republican Party ran advertisements on her behalf.[21] During her first term, the state Republican Party began grooming her for higher office.[19] In October 1996, she asked the Wasilla police chief, librarian, public works director, and finance director to resign, and instituted a policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters.[22] In January 1997, Palin notified the police chief, Irl Stambaugh, and the town librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, that they were being fired.[23] Palin said in a letter that she wanted a change because she believed the two did not fully support her administration. She rescinded the firing of the librarian, but not the police chief.[24] The chief filed a lawsuit, but a court dismissed it, finding that the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason.[25] According to Anne Kilkenny, a Democrat who observed the City Council, Palin also brought up the idea of banning some books at one meeting, but did not follow through with the idea.[21]

With the following four paragrahs, per the broad consensus below:

In 1996, Palin challenged and defeated incumbent John Stein for the office of mayor, running on a platform of change. In the campaign, she vowed to replace "stale leadership" and criticized Stein for what she called wasteful spending and high taxes. She also highlighted issues such as abortion, religion, gun control, and term limits. Though the position of mayor is non-partisan, the state Republican Party began grooming her for higher office, and ran advertisements on her behalf.

Shortly after taking office in October 1996 Palin began to implement the change she'd promised. She eliminated the position of museum director and asked for updated resumes and resignation letters from Wasilla police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak, and librarian Mary Ellen Emmons. Palin stated this request was to find out who supported her. She instituted a temporary policy requiring department heads to get her approval before talking to reporters, stating they first needed to become better acquainted with her policies.

Acording to Emmons, she and Palin twice discussed the question of library censorship—first in early October then in detail on October 28. Emmons stated Palin asked her if she would object to censorship, and Emmons replied "it would not be just me ... the American Civil Liberties Union would get involved, too." Palin raised the possibility of people circling the library in protest, to which Emmons replied "it would definitely be a problem the ACLU would take on then." In early December, Palin spoke publicly about the issue, using it as an example of a discussion she'd had with her department heads. Palin said, "many issues were discussed, both rhetorical and realistic in nature," adding that censorship "was discussed in the context of a professional question being asked in regards to library policy." No books were removed from the library.

Palin gave signed letters to Emmons and Stambaugh on January 30, 1997 that stated: "I do not feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the city of Wasilla. Therefore I intend to terminate your employment..." Palin rescinded the firing of Emmons the next day after meeting with her and after what the Anchorage Daily News called "a wave of public support for Emmons." Palin stated that her concerns had been alleviated when Emmons agreed to support Palin's plan to merge the town's library and museum operations. Palin also spoke with Stambaugh at least three times about the matter, but ultimately he was fired as planned. Stambaugh filed a lawsuit which was later dismissed by a court that found the mayor had the right to fire city employees for nearly any reason, including a political one.

I suppport this version. I do feel the groomed comment is out of place, however, it is best to just leave it since it is already there and unrelated to our proposed changes. It can then be addressed separately. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

ThaddeusB, what are you suggesting? If we take the "groomed" sentence out of our changes it will be gone, as our changes will overwrite the reference to Republican grooming on the main page.--Paul (talk) 18:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, I think it would better fit in later in the Wasilla section, since it seems out of place chronologically in its current position. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I support all of the recent changes - I would just like to add a small grammatical change as proposed above:

The beginning of the first line of the 4th paragraph currently reads:

"On January 30, 1997, signed letters from Palin were given to Emmoms and Stambaugh stating..."

It should be changed to:

"Palin gave signed letters to Emmoms and Stambaugh on January 30, 1997 which stated..."

If you agree, I would like to ask another editor to make the change - perhaps as an 8th draft below? Maybe 8 times the charm... Good work everyone. -Classicfilms (talk) 18:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I've made Classicfilms' requested change. I also made an effort to incorporate the grooming info better by changing the two sentences to one: "Though the position of mayor is non-partisan, the state Republican Party began grooming her for higher office.[43] and ran advertisements on her behalf.[30]" Are we done now? "My name is Paul.h, and I approve this draft" :-) --Paul (talk) 18:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Support: Thanks Paul, I needed a good laugh today :-) I too support the above version - thanks as well for adding my suggested change. I'm also fine with the changes you made. I should have been more clear above about an "8th draft" - I just meant this version above with tweaks - I added a subhead above it for just for clarity. Anyway, I'd like to see all of this wrapped up as well so we can move on to other tasks. -Classicfilms (talk) 18:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

supported with these two comments. One, let's get what we have posted and then let new tweaks get worked out against this version if needed. I'm expecting that the ACLU paragraph might get tweaks, but the way it stands is reasonable. Second, I believe these two sources should be integrated somehow. A) FROM THE ARCHIVE: Palin: Library censorship inquiries 'Rhetorical' B) PDF warning Palin Letter to Chief and Attorney . Theosis4u (talk) 20:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Just to let you know, paragraph three has already integrated A FROM THE ARCHIVE: Palin: Library censorship inquiries 'Rhetorical'. -Classicfilms (talk) 21:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

• Made a minor tweak to a reference to use the page number for Johnson's book; see #Johnson cites -- page numbers below. I made no changes to article text. He also said that book had material on the librarian thing, so you might want to see what he has to say about it. GRBerry 18:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Minor grammar fixes to draft8. I support inclusion. Kaisershatner (talk) 19:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

For clarity, I'll state that I support the current version (which is slightly, but not materially different than what I first said support to.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's what the Johnson book, at pp. 46-47, says about the firings:

Stein's loss was a bitter one. Many of his supporters viewed the young mayor as a kid playing a grown-up game. Police Chief Irl Stambaugh, in particular, made it clear he did not care for the new arrangement.

"I told them that I understood they had supported Mayor Stein," Sarah said of her first meeting with department heads. "But I told them they couldn't continue to support him now that he was out of office." Sarah asked the department heads to resign and reapply for their positions. She requested resignations from the police chief, Public Works Director Jack Felton, Finance Director Duane Dvorak, and Librarian Mary Ellen emmons. The city's museum manager, Jack Cooper, had already resigned when Sarah eliminated his position. The new mayor's startling demand for resignations tested the department heads' willingness to transfer their loyalties to the new adminstration."

I'm not sure how much that adds to the proposed langauge above, but I think it places the firings in a larger context. Coemgenus 20:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure either. One possibility would be to add this long quote as a footnote to the final paragraph. Otherwise I'm not certain how we would integrate it. -Classicfilms (talk) 21:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

• I see the "Shortly after taking office in October 1996 Palin began to implement the change she'd promised." sentence has made it back in. I'm still not sure what it adds to the article as a whole, but if everyone else is fine with it, don't let me get in the way. ;) I also made a few grammar fixes. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Good catch Bobblehead. I agree with you - this is an awkward sentence that should be changed. ::How about:

"Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin eliminated the position..." which would combine the first two sentences. If you like that version and if other editors agree, go ahead and change it. -Classicfilms (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Aha, now I see what happened. While it was discussed, the sentence was never actually taken out. But yes, the your proposed rewording works for me. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed the sentence from:

"Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin began to implement the change she'd promised. She eliminated the position of museum director and asked for..."

to

"Shortly after taking office in October 1996, Palin eliminated the position of museum director and asked for..."

The current version is less awkward than the original. Since the platform of change was discussed in the first paragraph, I do not see that this will change the intent of the paragraph.-Classicfilms (talk) 21:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Somehow this sentence got taken out again. "Palin was elected on a platform of change and began to implement that agenda almost immediately.[31]" With that sentence in, the sentence Bobblehead is talking about makes sense. I think this is an important point and it has got to go back in. I don't support the current version without it. Or at least some way of tying change and the firings closer together.--Paul (talk) 21:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Paul - I think this is a fair request. Why don't you go ahead and add it to the first paragraph. I would support it. -Classicfilms (talk) 21:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

As I said up in the 6th draft section, it's a bit disjointed to say she ran for office, here's her platform, she was groomed for higher office by the Republicans, and then go back to her election platform. If we cover her platform for change adequately in the first paragraph, then it should be redundant to repeat it in the second paragraph. It also comes across odd that her platform of change is in the first sentence of two paragraphs in a row.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Right - which is why it makes sense to restore the sentence in the first paragraph but not later ones. The first paragraph talks specifically about the election and restoring the sentence there would work. So I agree with Paul on that issue. I also agree with Bobblehead that it is awkward in the sentence from which I removed it. I'm not entirely certain where "Palin was elected on a platform of change and began to implement that agenda almost immediately.[31]" should be restored in the first paragraph so perhaps another editor should restore it. We also need to track down the actual reference the number 31 is referring to. -Classicfilms (talk) 22:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I restored the sentence. Look at it now. And let's not quibble over awkward. If we are all okay with content. Let's get this over with. The article is going to semi-protect very soon, so it won't stay this way for long anyway. Again I Support --Paul (talk) 22:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't the first sentence of the first paragraph already cover her election platform: "In 1996, Palin challenged and defeated incumbent John Stein for the office of mayor, running on a platform of change". But like I said, it's not that big an issue to hold off putting it on to the main page.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Fine. -Classicfilms (talk) 22:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Recap of Political positions

Political positions (current mainspace version)

Main article: Political positions of Sarah Palin

Many of Palin's political views are of a strong social conservative nature: she opposes abortion except when the life of the mother would otherwise be imperilled, and is a member of Feminists for Life; she backs capital punishment, and opposes same-sex marriage. She is also a member of the National Rifle Association and is a strong supporter of the right to keep and bear arms.

Palin is known for her support of "individual freedom and independence", and her endorsement for the minimal state and economic liberty of classical libertarianism: she is known in Alaska for her strong opposition to what she views as excessive government spending and corruption. She has strongly supported development of oil and natural gas drilling in Alaska, including in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Comments on Political positions (current mainspace version)

• This version is currently in mainspace. It is way too short. QuackGuru 22:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - This version is fine for now, written in summary style, and comparable to Joe Biden#Political positions. I would much rather see incremental improvement to it via {{editprotect}} than to replace it with one of the laundry lists of controversial issues below. Kelly ^hi! 22:57, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
• Expand - A featured article has a very well written political positions section. Barack Obama#Political positions This article would easily fail to be a WP:GA because of the very short political positions section. QuackGuru 23:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
• Expand. "Controversy" doesn't have any meaning; as long as there are no BLP violations, and care is taken to follow the sources, why shouldn't it be in the Positions section? QuackGuru, please find us a few reliable sources that say that Palin took these positions deliberately, to forestall any claim that a position is a slip of the tongue or something. We do not need Palin's campaign website to also say what positions she takes, but if there is such a source, please add it, so that nobody can say it isn't appropriate for Wikipedia. Also, please note that only 10,000 people a day visit the Political positions of Sarah Palin article, but 500,000 visit this page, so the "they can just click through" argument must be tempered to allow more in the summary. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 23:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - There is no need for a main biographical article of a politician to give lots of political positions on particular issues. For example, see the John McCain article which is a featured article that only addresses two particular issues: the economy and Iraq. John McCain#Political positions mostly covers broad themes, and leaves particular issues for the sub-article. It's very difficult to describe a particular issue position in a very brief sound bite, and that's why we have the sub-articles. Also, doing it all in the main article will prevent the main article from ever becoming stable; people will constantly be arguing about which issues to include, and how to describe her position.Ferrylodge (talk) 23:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment The article is protected, so stability shouldn't be a problem. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 23:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
• Note - Talk:Joe Biden/GA1 Either expand "Political positions" or get rid of it. It has a separate article, and that's fine, but the one in this article is way too short for its own section. The Joe Biden article failed to become a Good Article in part because of the short political positions section. The goal for this article can easily be a WP:GA. This can happen when we work together in good faith and are reasonable. QuackGuru 23:40, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
• This is not enough on her positions. Social issues are not the single, monolithic important aspect to her campaign. She ran as governor as a fiscal conservative, and has said on numerous occasions that she opposes pork-barrel spending. There is plenty of evidence to suggest her past history with lobbyists contradicts her statements. With that in mind, the "Political Positions" part of the article should be split into Social Issues and Fiscal Issues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.123.227.162 (talk) 23:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
• Keep The current short summary is fine, it's the same as Joe Biden. If someone is intrested we have a full article dedicated to political positions, no need to duplicate the whole thing here. Time to focus on improving other parts of the article. Hobartimus (talk) 04:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Did you read my note above? The Joe Biden article failed GA in part because of the short political positions section. QuackGuru 05:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Expand I think people just want to conveniently ignore this fact although it is obvious that the section needs to be expanded. 66.186.173.180 (talk) 12:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Note The wikipedia blurb claims that she is against abortion except when the mother's life is in danger, yet the cited article claims she is against it except when the mother's health is in danger. This is a fairly big difference, policy-wise. Porcupine8 (talk) 22:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Political positions (draft 1)

Main article: Political positions of Sarah Palin

Palin has described the Republican Party platform as "the right agenda for America," adding "individual freedom and independence is extremely important to me and that's why I'm a Republican."

She has called herself as "pro-life as any candidate can be " and would permit abortion only in cases where the mother's life is in danger, and supports mandatory parental consent for abortions. Palin is a member of Feminists for Life. Palin has been described as supportive of contraception. She backs abstinence-only education and is against "explicit sex-ed programs" in schools. She supports capital punishment and opposes same-sex marriage and supported a non-binding referendum for a constitutional amendment to deny state health benefits to same-sex couples.

Palin has said she supports teaching both creationism and evolution in public schools, but not to the extent of adding creation-based alternatives to the required curriculum. She has strongly promoted oil and natural gas resource development in Alaska, including in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR). She has opposed federal listing of the polar bear as an endangered species warning that it would adversely affect energy development in Alaska. Palin does not believe that global warming is human-caused.

Palin, a long-time member of the National Rifle Association, strongly supports its interpretation of the Second Amendment as protecting individual rights to bear arms, including handguns. She also supports gun safety education for youth.

Palin's foreign policy positions were unclear at the time she was picked as McCain's running mate. When asked for her views about troop escalations in Iraq, she replied "…while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place…"

Comments on Political positions (draft 1)

This draft is very well written. QuackGuru 22:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I like #1 since it is shorter than #2 and to the point. I would tighten it up bit more by:

• Delete the mention that she is a member of Feminists for Life. It should certainly be mentioned in the article, but not here. Membership in an organization is not a political position.

• State simply that “Palin is pro contraception. “ That is the clear message in the cited reference. There is no need to qualify it with “it has been reported that”. This is an encyclopedia article. Everything we post has been reported by others.

• Delete the mention that she is a member of the NRA for the same reasons above. It should be in the article, but not here. Instead simply say that “Palin strongly supports an individual’s right to bear arms, including handguns. “

• Regarding foreign policy, simply say “Palin supports the current administration’s policies in Iraq”. There is no need to mention what we don’t know (i.e. her positions are unclear). When they become clear, we can add them. There is also no need to mention that she wants to know we have an exit plan in place. That’s not a policy position.

• Add that she is pro Israel--Nowa (talk) 02:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If you would like, I can go ahead and make the above edits, or leave it to the original poster to decide which of these, if any, to incorporate in his/her proposed draft. Just let me know.--Nowa (talk) 01:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I started a new section below for you to draft a similar version to draft 1. Anything is better than the current mainspace version. QuackGuru 05:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Political positions (draft 1.5) (shortest draft)

Main article: Political positions of Sarah Palin

Palin has described the Republican Party platform as "the right agenda for America," adding "individual freedom and independence is extremely important to me and that's why I'm a Republican."

As governor of Alaska, Palin has been a strong supporter of reducing state government spending, including cutting $1.6 billion from the Alaskan construction budget. Nonetheless, she has been strongly in favor of increased federal funding of construction programs for her state.

She has called herself as "pro-life as any candidate can be ", would permit abortion only in cases where the mother's life is in danger, and supports mandatory parental consent for abortions. Palin is supportive of contraception but she backs abstinence-only education and is against "explicit sex-ed programs" in schools. She opposes same-sex marriage and supported a non-binding referendum for an Alaskan constitutional amendment to deny state health benefits to same-sex couples.

Palin supports allowing the teaching of both creationism and evolution in public schools, but not to the extent of requiring the teaching of creation-based alternatives.

Palin has strongly promoted oil and natural gas resource development in Alaska, including in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR). She has opposed federal listing of the polar bear as an endangered species warning that it would adversely affect energy development in Alaska. Palin does not believe that global warming is human-caused.

Palin strongly supports an individual’s right to bear arms, including handguns. She also supports gun safety education for youth.

Palin supports the Bush Administration's policies in Iraq.

She supports capital punishment.--Nowa (talk) 12:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments on Political positions (draft 1.5)

I added draft 1.5 to the draft article.[11] QuackGuru 19:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.--Nowa (talk) 20:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Political positions (draft 2)

Main article: Political positions of Sarah Palin

Palin has described the Republican party platform as "the right agenda for America," adding "individual freedom and independence is extremely important to me and that's why I'm a Republican."

In 2002, while running for lieutenant governor, Palin called herself as "pro-life as any candidate can be." She opposes abortion in cases of rape and incest, supporting it only in cases where the mother's life is in danger, and suggested that requiring parental consent for abortions be added to Alaska's constitution. Palin is a member of Feminists for Life. A 2006 article in the Anchorage Daily News refers to Palin as supportive of contraception but does not go into detail. She is a "firm supporter of abstinence-only education in schools", saying, "explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support".

Palin supports capital punishment for some crimes. "If the legislature passed a death penalty law, I would sign it. We have a right to know that someone who rapes and murders a child or kills an innocent person in a drive-by shooting will never be able to do that again."

Palin opposes same-sex marriage and supported a non-binding referendum for a constitutional amendment to deny state health benefits to same-sex couples. Palin has stated that she supported the 1998 constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage.

In a televised debate in 2006, Palin said she supported teaching both creationism and evolution in public schools. She clarified her position the next day, saying that if a debate of alternative views arose in class she would not want its discussion prohibited. She added that she would not push the state Board of Education to add creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum. Palin does not believe that global warming is human-caused. Palin opposed federal listing of the polar bear as an endangered species on the grounds that the "population has dramatically increased over 30 years as a result of conservation," and supported a controversial predator-control program involving aerial hunting of wolves to increase moose populations for hunters.

Palin, a long-time member of the National Rifle Association, strongly supports its interpretation of the Second Amendment as protecting individual rights to bear arms, including handguns. She also supports gun safety education for youth.

Palin's foreign policy positions were unclear at the time she was picked as McCain's running mate. When asked for her views about troop escalations in Iraq, she replied "…while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place…"

Comments on Political positions (draft 2)

This draft has the most detail. QuackGuru 22:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

If this is going to be a summary of what is described in more detail on Political positions of Sarah Palin, there probably should be a mention of her position on energy and the environment. --Crunch (talk) 23:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is a transcript of an interview with her on CNN earlier this year. In it, she carefully outlines her strong opinions that the environmental activists are using the Endangered Species Act as a tool to prevent oil and gas development that will not really harm the environment. It is clear that this is a political position she believes in. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 23:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment- In an (probably archived already) discussion, we hashed out better language than "Palin, a long-time member of the National Rifle Association, strongly supports its interpretation of the Second Amendment as protecting individual rights to bear arms..." which makes it sound as if Palin holds the position because the NRA does. Better wording would be more like "Palin strongly supports the individual right to bear arms and praised the 2008 US Supreme Court decision in Heller that interpreted the Second Amendment as an individual right.(cite) She is a long-time member of the NRA.(cite)" etc. Kaisershatner (talk) 00:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC) NB this discussion is still several sections above, not archived yet. Kaisershatner (talk) 00:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I simplified it a bit more. See v 1.5 above.--Nowa (talk) 12:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Comment The reference for the predator hunting program does not confirm that Palin supports the program, nor does it support the POV-clause "for hunters." Also, this is mostly a list of wedge issues and doesn't really tell us anything about Sarah Palin's political principles or political accomplishments. It is well documented that she is a fighter for ethics in government, and against wasteful spending, having vetoed 300 spending items so far as governor. This summary is not balanced. --Paul (talk) 01:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It is equally well documented that she has been a fighter for earmarks, and has helped to appropriate vast sums of money for her town, and later for the "bridge to nowhere" that she later changed her mind on. So are we talking about the dictionary definition of "balanced", or the FOX News definition? -- Scjessey (talk) 01:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer a summary that doesn't address any specific positions. I would prefer the summary only deal with her political philosophy and possibly decision making process. I prefer this for two reasons: one it avoids unnecessary duplication of info and two it discourages people from adding more specifics and more specifics as is bound if the article becomes unprotected again. The section will inevitability expand until it is basically a copy of the daughter article again. (This already happened multiple times despite the hidden comment asking people not to expand it.) All of that said, I think this is a well written, reasonable, and fair summary. However, I feel it is at the very least too long and detailed. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:11, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

"A summary that doesn't address any specific positions" doesn't make any sense at all. How can you have a section called "Political positions" that doesn't specify any? While I agree these sections have a tendency to expand, that is not a good enough reason to keep important details out of the summary. There are plenty of editors who can step in to provide guidance, perform "good faith reverts" and/or perform regular pruning as and when necessary. This particular version is reasonable, accurate and non-controversial summary of the key details. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Biden doesn't address any and McCain only addresses two, so certainly it can be done. To be clear I meant that the summary should be something like it is now (only bigger) in that it explains the general principles behind her positions without addressing the finer details. A few sentences on her philosophy on social issues, a few on her economic view (with ~1 on her view of the environment.), a few on her view of governments role, and maybe a few on what she is know for/how other view her. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I added her views on government spending to v1.5 above.--Nowa (talk) 12:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Beluga whales

Currently, the last line of "Energy and Environment" states:

Palin also disagrees with strengthening the protection status of the beluga whales in Cook Inlet, Alaska, where oil and gas development has been proposed.

Recommend replacing with:

Palin also opposed the placement of beluga whales in Alaska's Cook Inlet on the engangered species list, on economic grounds. Palin cited state scientists who claimed that hunting was the only factor causing the whales' decline, and that the hunting has been effectively controlled through cooperative agreements with Alaska Native organizations.

I believe it's more neutral and specific. This is the additional source being cited for the info, in addition to the source already on the sentence. Kelly ^hi! 09:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose That source is the government of Alaska's own page. Since Palin is the governor, that is a decidedly non-neutral source; she could well have written it herself. Please find a newspaper or other independent secondary source that says what you (and Palin) are claiming. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 09:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

  Here is another source regarding the whale population and the agreements with the Eskimos. I think the state press release should also be kept as an additional source though, since it contains the scientists' statments. Kelly ^hi! 09:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• • That source is acceptable, it says "Gov. Sarah Palin already has come out against listing the whales because of the potential for long-term damage to the local economy." and clearly blames overhunting (now curtailed) for the decline. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:07, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• I see where you're coming from, Kelly, but it's not really more neutral since it gives her rebuttal but no argument for. The NMFS doubtless have their scientists too. How about

In 2007 Palin urged against a proposal by the National Marine Fisheries Service to place beluga whales in Alaska's Cook Inlet on the engangered species list. Such a listing entails vetting of all actions under the scope of federal agencies. Palin argued that there was evidence that the whale population was on the increase, and warned against damage to the local economy by the costs of added delays in process.

? 86.44.29.35 (talk) 10:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah, including the NMFS opinion is a good idea. What do you think of the mention of the Eskimo whaling agreements? Kelly ^hi! 10:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I would like to suggest:

... the hunting has been curtailed after federal negotiations with Alaska Native organizations.

because that is what the source says, and I don't think Alaskan Natives would like to see themselves described as "controlled." Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If we want to be loquacious, we can add "She pointed to collaborative hunting agreements in place between the State and Alaskan Native organizations, and asked the NMFS to work with the State in implementing alternative plans to ensure the conservation of the Inlet's whales." Rather wordy though. 86.44.29.35 (talk) 10:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it was the feds who negotiated it. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The hunting agreements, you mean? 86.44.29.35 (talk) 10:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

My mistake, I presumed otherwise from the .gov source. OK, substitute "federal agencies" for the first instance of "the State", i guess? 86.44.29.35 (talk) 10:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• May I direct your attention to this document containing more recent from the NMFS research that addresses Palin's scientific claims. The document states that despite hunting controls beluga whales in Cook's Inlet remain severely depleted and at high risk of permanent extinction. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 10:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Yep but we're just saying what she said, we're not saying it's true. Give the reader some credit.86.44.29.35 (talk) 10:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The NOAA source is okay, but ideally we'd need a newspaper or magazine that says that, or better yet assesses all the claims. State scientists vs federal scientists, who is right? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, but if we state her position we should also state its rebuttal in a scientific document by the NMFS, a branch of the US department of Commerce. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 10:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Do they call it a rebuttal of the Alaskan/Palin claims? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Read the document for yourself. It clearly rejects the claims of the Alaska state scientists that are being considered here. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 10:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Why get into the rights and wrongs of it? It will be its own article! The NMFS proposed it, there was obviously good reason for doing so, she rebutted them thus. And we're out. 86.44.29.35 (talk) 10:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

No, that's only half the story. The NMFS proposed the listing. Palin argued against the listing it on the grounds the hunting restrictions adequately protect the beluga population. And then the NMFS review was published which rejected those grounds. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 11:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's 134 pages long, I just read half of it. Please find a secondary source. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

There already is a secondary source: the Time article. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 10:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• To clarify: the NMFS proposed listing belugas and held a public discussion. The Alaska scientists put their case at the public forum. And then the NMFS published this review which rejects the claims of the Alaska scientists. And seeing as its federal scientists who get to decide whether or not the belugas get listed as endangered, that's pretty important information. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 10:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• • But I don't even mention scientists in my proposed version. We really don't want to give claim and counter claim to infinity. Don't you like my proposed version? *is hurt* 86.44.29.35 (talk) 10:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• • • FWIW I don't think it's a case of claim and counterclaim. The NMFS held a public discussion at which Palin and presumably others put their case, and then published a review synthesizing the current status of research. The NMFS is a public body, its not a bunch of animal rights loonies. As I'm sure you know.

I'd say this discussion really needs to take place on the "Political positions" page where we can maybe do some proper wiki editing on an unlocked page, and then when we have consensus we can summarize it here. The version currently up there has already benefited from a bit of back and forth between Kelly and myself.

Here is the version as it currently stands on "Political positions":

Palin also opposed the placement of beluga whales in Alaska's Cook Inlet on the endangered species list, on economic grounds.[36] Palin cited state scientists who claimed that hunting was the only factor causing the whales' decline, and that the hunting has been effectively controlled through cooperative agreements with Alaska Native organizations. [37] More recent research by the National Marine Fisheries Service suggests that despite hunting controls beluga whales in Cook's Inlet remain severely depleted and at high risk of permanent extinction. [38]

As an intermediate step, I propose the first sentence of the above for this page, sourced to the Time article which is the ony secondary source we have at the moment:

"Palin also opposed the placement of beluga whales in Alaska's Cook Inlet on the endangered species list, on economic grounds."

This avoids mentioning oil & gas which are not the main economic considerations (it's really about fishing) and is generally a bit more neutral. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 12:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Should we specifically say "fishing" instead of simply "economic grounds"? Kelly ^hi! 14:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, the statement that Palin put out doesn't specifically mention fishing. I would say it's probably on the safe side not to single out the fishing industry. But I don't have a strong view on that. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 18:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Are there any more suggestions? I'd like to build consensus towards an edit because I think we have made some progress here and it would be good to see that reflected in the page content. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 19:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Pending any further suggestions: I propose Palin also opposed the placement of beluga whales in Alaska's Cook Inlet on the endangered species list, on economic grounds in place of the current sentence. 79.74.252.173 (talk) 23:07, 7 September 2008 (UTC) I support the sentence change since it is more accurate than the current one. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yet another proposed revision:I agree with the basic idea that scientific arguments should be included (both sides) or excluded. Giving only one side, as in the original proposal in this thread, would be wrong.

A few suggestions for improving the wording proposed above (by 79.74.252.173 at 23:07): This and other versions say something like "placement of beluga whales in Alaska's Cook Inlet". This would make the reader think first of some kind of program to stock the inlet with whales, until he or she reads on, and then has to go back and re-understand the sentence. Also, the version above might give some readers the impression that the listing was on economic grounds -- not reasonable under the ESA but some people wouldn't know that. Finally, "the endangered species list" most logically means the species designated as "endangered". I've only skimmed the references but it seems possible that NMFS was considering some kind of listing under ESA, which could include listing as "threatened" rather than "endangered".

{{editprotected}}

For these reasons, I suggest: "Palin also opposed, on economic grounds, a proposal to list beluga whales in Alaska's Cook Inlet under the Endangered Species Act." JamesMLane t c 02:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

(in place of Palin also disagrees with strengthening the protection status of the beluga whales in Cook Inlet, Alaska, where oil and gas development has been proposed.) T0mpr1c3 (talk) 14:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Approve. Could maybe wikilink beluga whales. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 08:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Approve This is definitely an improvement (more neutral and more accurate). --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

•  Done by somebody; I haven't checked the history to see who or when. GRBerry 19:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Disapprove The main argument is not "on economic grounds", Palin said it was a concern. By only listing this reason it is implied it's the only one! The Time's article doesn't source this reason of "economic grounds" - it implies it about Palin. Remember, the NMFS decided to NOT list the whales in 2000 with the same population numbers. That's why they are taking the six month extension to do another population estimate. The reasons are given here. This is a bias POV.

Decision to list Cook Inlet belugas delayed

Theosis4u (talk) 23:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit request - Anchorage Daily News

This looks like a good External link, as it appears balanced, comprehensive and it's from Alaska. It's also updated on an ongoing basis: http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/ Flatterworld (talk) 17:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me. 79.74.252.173 (talk) 17:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the fact that it's from Alaska means it's balanced, but it seems comprehensive, so I support adding it, formatting as
Alaska Daily News ongoing coverage of Sarah Palin. --Crunch (talk) 18:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

oppose In a google search for "anchorage daily news bias" several sites pop up identifying ADN with a pretty significant left-leaning bias. --98.243.129.181 (talk) 18:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Support A reliable and independent source with substantial and encyclopedic coverage of the subject. If one leans far enough to the right, the center can appear to be leaning left. One of the largest circulation papers in a candidate's home state should not be excluded as a reliable source on such flimsy grounds.Edison (talk) 19:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Same goes for all biases, but if you do a search for sites with "anchorage daily news bias" nothing comes up as identifying it as right leaning, other news agencies even identify this one as slightly leftist. Moot point now anyhow. --98.243.129.181 (talk) 20:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Support. A reliable and informative source. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 19:07, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Support I see no reason to exclude it. It adds value and is considered independent. --ThaddeusB (talk) 23:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Support Looks like a fine source. Important paper in her home state, it would seem to be a POV issue to not have it. Hobit (talk) 23:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Note We already have News and commentary from The New York Times so I would suggest News and commentary from Anchorage Daily News Flatterworld (talk) 01:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Support, no reason to see it as "left-leaning". JamesMLane t c 01:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Support a google search is not sufficient evidence to label something "left-leaning". Hobartimus (talk) 01:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} Please add the following external link per consensus: --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
News and commentary from Anchorage Daily News

•  Done in the format Crunch suggested, which is the one that has consensus. GRBerry 13:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Protection

Just to keep us all up to date, what are the plans to get this page down to semiprotection? This is supposed to be a Wiki. I remember reading somewhere that we were going to give it a try on Saturday. This is Sunday and the page has been fully protected for three days. I think someone on this page seriously proposed keeping it locked until after the election, which is a laughable suggestion and diametrically opposed to Wikipedia's mission to be an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 19:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

There is currently a proposed temporary injunction at the ArbCom case regarding this. Admins are waiting for a determination, which I think is prudent. Kelly ^hi! 19:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That's got nothing to do with my question. The proposed temporary injunction only concerns how admins should handle the page while it's protected. This seems like a silly question if the page will be unprotected before that question can be settled, like it should be. What steps are being taken to get the page unprotected? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 19:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The issue was discussed by administrators at WP:RFPP (sorry, no link), but the sense of the conversation was that any admin who screws with the protection of this article now risks being added as an involved party to the ArbCom case. Kelly ^hi! 19:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Very nice catch-22 we've blundered into here, protect the page and then make it procedurally impossible to unprotect it, thereby indefinitely enshrining a situation that runs directly counter to Wikipedia's mission. Very well, how can the community voice its views on getting this page unprotected, notwithstanding the activities at arbcom? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 19:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

For now, the best way forward is to draft proposed edits and propose them here at the talk page, for consensus. This process actually seems to have become fairly civilized and is working well so far. Kelly ^hi! 19:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Your edits will then be reviewed and if they are positive towards Sarah we will add them. If they are in anyway negative despite the fact they are current and in the MSM and verified correct we will not include them. We will do this by continually declining updates based on wording or other semantics that would normally be resolved through the wiki process. Sitedown (talk) 20:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Is the above meant as some kind of sarcasm? Obviously, including only positive edits but no negative edits would be an NPOV violation. Wikidemon (talk) 20:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Afraid not. There is plenty of material in this article that people could regard as negative - i.e. the Alaska Public Commissioner dismissal and other things. But those things will only be accepted if they comply with WP:NPOV and have multiple, reliable, sources. This is the same reason you don't see garbage about being a secret Muslim or Mob-associated at the Barack Obama article. Kelly ^hi! 20:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm well acquainted with NPOV policy. That would suggest that any contentious material, positive or negative, and particularly anything challeneged by another editor, must be reliably sourced. The notion of multiple sources is a bit unique but I would go along with it as a mater of weight for hyper-notable people (on the theory that if it's truly notable a lot of sources would agree on it). The only policy I'm aware of that goes one-way to admit only positive and not negative stuff is BLP, and that is only under limited circumstances. Most negative things about major politicians are POV issues, not BLP issues. For example, the "troopergate" and "bridge to nowhere" matters as they affect Palin are matters of her public record in office and definitely not BLP concerns (though I suppose where they affect the officer himself, the kid, the divorce, etc., they raise BLP questions for other people). Wikidemon (talk) 20:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I absolutely agree. In terms of multiple sources, I was thinking of WP:REDFLAG as regards controversial or unlikely claims. Kelly ^hi! 22:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Background on Traffic

I have just finished writing this summary of the traffic and activity on this page. It remains the most visited page on Wikipedia. I plan to propose a reduction in protection once the evidence shows this page falls out of the top spot, but we aren't there yet. Dragons flight (talk) 21:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the high level of traffic on this page. That is an excellent argument in favor of lowering the protection level as soon as possible and not waiting for the traffic to abate. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be available to edit by anyone. The fact that our most-trafficked article is locked is a mockery of our purpose. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Excellent work, Dragons flight. The problem with this article is that the volume of editing simply overwhelmed the normal wiki procedures of warning and blocking for quality control. There were simply so many edits that it was hardly possible to read them all, much less check out the supplied sources. I was going to do an analysis of edits per minute, but your work is good enough so that I think I'll do something else this afternoon. I'm sure there were long periods of time with edits at more than one per minute. Thanks again.--Paul (talk) 21:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course, as you know, Paul, that describes what was happening three days ago, before the article was locked. Furthermore, the number of page views tells us nothing about the editing pattern. Looking at that part of the summary shows that the edit rate on the day before it was locked (Sept. 3) was about half what had been on Aug. 29. Also, the page views were down yesterday to 207,000 yesterday from a high of 2.5 million on the 29th. There's obviously no more reason for this page to be locked. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I get your point, but you'd probably be better off making your point at the Arb case page. No decision will be made here, it's just wasted bytes. Kelly ^hi! 02:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Anderson makes a wondeful point. Mrs. Palin's page may be receiving an enomorous ammount of attention and be suseptable to vandalism, but the irony is, that by receiving such focus the chance of removing slanderous and untruthful comments also proportionally increases. For Wikipedia to place this page under full protection is a basic violation of one of their basic strengths, an "open and transparent consensus." To reject the word is to reject the human search. ~Max Lerner —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aruhnka (talk • contribs) 06:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Anderson and Aruhnka make fine utopian agruments, but they've never edited the Sarah Palin article, and presumably weren't here at the height of the attacks that led to fully protecting the article. Poke around on the Adminstrator's pages there is plenty of evidence as to why the article is locked at the present. As disagreements are solved here on the talk page, and as interest falls back to normal levels (on Friday Aug. 29, this page had more page views than any wiki page ever). the protection will be removed.--Paul (talk) 13:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Why doesn't Obama's page get the same protection she does? Are the wiki admins being paid by the republican party or something? I've notive alot of things with this presidential election and wiki and alot of things I've observed have been pro republican themes and reverts. This needs to be put out on main stream media on how wiki has change to being evil now.--Ron John (talk) 11:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Obama's page isn't fully protected at the moment, because it isn't being attached by 100's of POV-pushers. Though if you look at the protection log, it has been fully protected at times in the past.--Paul (talk) 13:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

You're a nut! Need help adjusting that tin foil cap of yours, son? 68.46.183.96 (talk) 04:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

• Have you got any friends who are reporters you can contact? We know that reporters watch Wikipedia talk pages for juicy stories, maybe a story is in the works. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 12:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

NPR already did a story on how the article was edited by one volunteer the night before the Palin announcement. What seems to be missing is the followup story on how the article was so heavily attacked by partisans of the other side inserting libel and NPOV and BPL voilating materials, that the article has been locked for editing ever since; a very much bigger story which has not been reported.--Paul (talk) 12:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if people outside Wikipedia would find it surprising that an article with millions of views would attract a few NPOV edits, since this is the "Encyclopedia that anyone can edit". My comment to Ronjohn above was tongue in cheek, although not unsympathetic. I was trying to convey that unless a reporter is very familiar with Wikipedia's internal workings, they would not understand how unusual the behavior of the admins has been lately. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 13:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Bridge To Nowhere

As this is locked, I cannot add this. According to http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/675/ and an NPR story here she said "thanks but no thanks" after Congress actually had reneged. The bridge plan was already cancelled when she asked for it to not continue. This is notable in the artilce. Qermaq (talk) 01:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

"after Congress actually had reneged" what do you mean by this? Hobartimus (talk) 01:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Basically, Palin said "Thanks, but no thanks" after Congress had already removed the funding for the bridge to nowhere.. Well, after Congress had changed the earmark from a specific funding of the bridge to a general funding of Alaska's transportation system. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 01:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understand the funds were in place and it was a specific Alaskan decision not to build the bridge. Congress had nothing to do with not building the bridge they merely passed the responsibility to the Alaskan government to build it or not. Then Alaska decided not to build the bridge and spend the money elsewhere where it's less wasteful. Hobartimus (talk) 01:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

This is already pretty thoroughly covered in Sarah Palin#Gravina Island bridge. DId you have a specific change in mind? Kelly ^hi! 02:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think your link is correct, Kelly. Do you mean Sarah Palin#Bridge to Nowhere? I'm thinking the issue at hand is that the way the section is worded, it gives the impression that Palin was the one that was responsible for getting rid of the earmark, when in reality it was Congress that did that.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 02:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, yeah, wrong link - it apparently got changed sometime, or my brain is scrambled. What rewording would you suggest? Kelly ^hi! 02:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly clear that Congress removed the earmark in 2005, leaving Alaska's general transportation grant available for whatever purposes the state chose. [12] The current wording gives the impression that this happened after Palin became governor, which of course is false. (For that reason, I agree with Bobblehead's criticism.) In 2006, campaigning for governor, Palin supported funding the bridge and referred to the power of the state's congressional delegation. The clear implication is that she wanted to keep the general transportation grant but get bridge money added on top of it. (If all she had wanted to do was spend the grant money on the bridge, then the state could do that without intervention by Stevens and Young.) Thus, she was still hoping to get bridge money from the feds. She canceled the bridge only when it became clear that there would be no additional appropriation for that purpose from Washington. In that respect, I think that Hobartimus's summary above, although accurate as far as it goes, is incomplete.

As for rewording, I'm too tired right now to draft something. I do think that the section should go roughly in chrono order, beginning with the pre-2006 developments rather than beginning with Palin's campaign. She wasn't involved pre-2006, but it's essential to give the reader the background. JamesMLane t c 08:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Your theory that Palin somehow wanted to get the bridge money twice out of Congress is interesting to me. Why would Congress pay more after they already paid the full price of the bridge? After they pay the 2nd time and again Alaska finds that the bridge is still as wasteful and still spends the money much better elsewhere would there be a 3rd run 4th etc? I think your theory about bridge money on top of bridge money becomes weak at this point because it makes the assumption that Congress would even consider handing out more money for a bridge they already paid for in full. And in the end they didn't. Why would they? They'd look stupid at that point paying say 1B$ for a bridge with a price tag of 400 Mil. We know that the earmark was cancelled in late 2005 but when did the money arrive? The previous administration of Alaska should probably also get some credit if they also recognized the wasteful nature of the bridge and directed some funds at better projects however the extent of this is not known. But even if they get some more money from Congress why would they build the bridge. Say the bridge costs 400$ and it's benefit to Alaska is estimated at 50$ (thus being a huge waste of money), clearly they will direct the money building other projects(as they did). Let's say Congress goes mad and pays them 2-3-4 times for the whole price of the bridge as you speculated. Now they have 1600$ but the bridge still costs the same 400 with the same lousy 50 benefit and still if they build anything else they will be better off. If they have the choice they will never build the bridge they know it's simply not worth 400. If Congress forces the bridge on them with an earmark and they have no say in it then Congress can take credit or blame for how the project turned out. But here Alaskan government had the choice and they deserve full credit (possibly shared between the two administrations who handled it) for recognizing that the bridge is not worth it's cost. Hobartimus (talk) 13:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

There's no issue of paying for the bridge twice. The 2005 transportation bill, which provided money to Alaska for transportation projects, was originally considered in a version that required $442 million to be spent on the two bridges. That requirement was removed. According to the Times article from 2005 that I linked:

The change will not save the federal government any money. Instead, the $442 million will be turned over to the state with no strings attached, allowing lawmakers and the governor there to parcel it out for transportation projects as they see fit, including the bridges should they so choose.

It was a year later that Palin, running for Governor, called for funding the projects and referred to the power of the state's Congressional delegation. If she meant only that she, as Governor, would choose to spend the federal money on the bridges rather than on other projects, then the Congressional delegation wouldn't be a factor. As the Times points out, the person elected Governor would have the power to do that without Congressional action. Her reference in 2006 to the power of the state's Congressional delegation must mean she wanted additional federal funding -- money for the bridges on top of what would otherwise be appropriated. (If Congress added bridge money with a restored earmark, that would eliminate the problem you describe of paying for the same bridge over and over again. The additional money would have to go to the bridges.) It was only when it became clear that no such funding would come through that she canceled the projects. JamesMLane t c 19:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest changes to the Bridge to Nowhere section; it's currently a bit unclear and does not make note of recent press on the subject. The sentence "Palin made national news when she stopped work on the bridge" should probably be removed, as I don't see it supported in the cited sources (both from Aug/Sept 2008). Also, most of the sources suggested an element of exaggeration or oversimplification in the claims made by the McCain/Palin campaign: such sources include, but are not limited to, the Anchorage Daily News, the Associated Press, the New York Times, NPR, the Guardian, Politifact (from the St. Petersburg Times), FOX News (!), the Los Angeles Times, UPI, UPI again, and of course Newsweek. This huge weight of reliable sources should be more accurately reflected. Currently, the article makes it sound like only a couple of local Alaskans noticed any disconnect between the rhetoric and the reality, which is not the case. MastCell ^Talk 20:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal has a new article about Sarah Palin and the Bridge to Nowhere that could be used in the article. Here's a quote in the article about her stance on the Bridge to Nowhere:

She endorsed the multimillion dollar project during her gubernatorial race in 2006. And while she did take part in stopping the project after it became a national scandal, she did not return the federal money. She just allocated it elsewhere.[13]

Here's a little quote from the article about her earmark requests:

Gov. Palin has requested $750 million in her two years as governor -- which the AP says is the largest per-capita request in the nation.[14]

Also, here's an interesting photo of her, but it would probably cause an edit war if placed in the article. --JHP (talk) 23:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I've seen the photo and I suspect I will again before November. Probably a little too pointed to be encyclopedic here. I'd add the WSJ to the list of sources indicating that there is a notable element to this story that is not well-covered in our article at present. Thoughts about proposed wording changes? MastCell ^Talk 23:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

"Too pointed" is not anything close to a reason for barring a photo from Wikipedia. See Michael Dukakis#Public relations failure: The "Tank/Helmet" disaster, which reproduces the photo that damaged Dukakis. In other words, we can use significant and accurate photos of candidates for national office. What's sauce for the Democratic gander is sauce for the Republican goose. The Palin t-shirt photo has been uploaded under a fair use rationale, which is defensible, but I'll feel more comfortable about adding it once we have more information about its provenance and licensing. JamesMLane t c 00:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Fixed with agreed-upon text from political positions. See talk page there.GreekParadise (talk) 02:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The text may or may not have been agreed upon in that discussion, which I haven't had time to follow. What I can tell you with confidence is that the current version (notably in the first two paragraphs) is rife with false statements, chiefly of timing. It is incorrect as to the order of events, which was actually, in rough form:

• bridge is proposed
• bridge gets name "Bridge to Nowhere"
• opposition causes Congress to cancel earmark (note that this occurred in 2005, before Palin was Governor, not afterward [15])
• Palin runs for Governor on pro-bridge platform
• Palin, in campaign, expresses hope that Alaska's powerful Congressional delegation can restore Bridge to Nowhere money
• Palin is elected
• Congress does not restore federal money for bridge
• Palin doesn't want to spend state money for bridge, and so gives up on project.

I guess this exemplifies one problem with trying to deal with some many comments about so many issues on one talk page. Nevertheless, much of the correct information is in this very thread. I'll try to do a first-draft fix but I don't have time tonight to polish it, so merciless editing will be welcome. JamesMLane t c 04:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Racial, gender positions of Sarah Palin

When looking at Palin's views, we should examine her views on race and gender. Reports are out saying she called Obama "Sambo" and Hillary Clinton a "b----." They also say she regularly calls Alaska’s Aboriginal people racial slurs. For one such report, see http://www.smh.com.au/news/us-election/media-factions-at-war-over-palin/2008/09/08/1220857456619.html

What was Palin's record on appointing minorities and women to positions in her administration as Alaska governor and mayor of Wasilla? Does she support affirmative action? Did she ever help increase the pool of loans given to minority and women owned businesses? These are important questions that need to be answered in any report on her positions. Jacksonthor (talk) 16:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes important positions indeed. Newsflash- her husband is part eskimo. Your source reads like a gossip rag: A blog said that someone said that he heard someone else say, but she hasn't been interviewed to confirm ... Please. This tripe is a suitable for a speedy delete in accordance with WP:BLP (Yes it applies to talk pages too.) Freedom Fan (talk) 03:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Abortion reference should include "personal opinion"

I have this on Talk:Political_positions_of_Sarah_Palin#Abortion_wording as well. I think we should include the abortion reference as a "personal opinion" and then let the main political positions page refer to the following below:

ADN - Palin on issues.

Q: If Roe v. Wade were overturned and states could once again prohibit abortion, in your view, to what extent should abortion be prohibited in Alaska?

A: Under this hypothetical scenario, it would not be up to the governor to unilaterally ban anything. It would be up to the people of Alaska to discuss and decide how we would like our society to reflect our values."

If someone could please include the above references in the appropriate manner. I'm not 100% sure I've been able to maintain objectively in response to the hypocrisy I've witness around Palin. Theosis4u (talk) 03:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I tried to add this info, but as I was doing so the page got full protected again due to continued edit wars. Sigh. See the talk page for my attempted edit. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

My view would be to hold off until someone directly comes out and asks her "Do you support Roe vs Wade?". I don't think the interviewer pinned her down. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 09:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

A direct "answer" would be nice, but this reference should definitely go in the article as it gives more context to the other opinions that very well might be "personal". Without this reference, it's easy to imply the others are political statements against Roe V. Wade. Theosis4u (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Request for POV Tag

The one consensus we have on this page is that there's no consensus (See comment above.) As there's no consensus that the current article is NPOV, shouldn't we have a tag to alert readers of our intense disagreement with each other?GreekParadise (talk) 06:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

haha, yea right! Slap one on Obama first. Nowhere in Obama's article do I find mention of him voting against the born alive act, or do I read about HIS family such as Malik Abongo Obama...I cant learn about Rezko or Ayres on Obama's article....thats because the typical wikipedian- a white male, aged 35 and under, techi, socialist, in favor of smoking pot will typically hate Palin and want to fill her article with 'controversey.' that is what many people want....they want to add a bunch of controversey to this article. We all know it.

• Approve This page is not NPOV, and the consensus process has stalled. Spiff1959 (talk) 16:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

New information on the Palins' choice of churches

The NYT has new information on why the Palins changed churches;

One of the musical directors at the church, Adele Morgan, who has known Ms. Palin since the third grade, said the Palins moved to the nondenominational Wasilla Bible Church in 2002, in part because its ministry is less “extreme” than Pentecostal churches like the Assemblies of God, which practice speaking in tongues and miraculous healings.

Now that we have this piece of information we could add it to the religion paragraph at the tail end of the article, if anybody cares to rework it. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 07:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems like further support for the existing statement that Palin is a non-denominational Christian, although it hardly seems necessary because we already have it in her own words. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 09:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

irrelevant. Obama has the monopoly on bizzarre churches, and barely a mention in his article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 (talk) 08:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

oops forgot to mention: Obama's church is black liberation theology....interesting how the Obama article completely leaves that out! But then again, the typical wikipedian: a white male, age 35 and under, a tekkie, a pro-obama, anti-palin socialist will conveniently leave that out! I know how the typical wikipeian works. He will pump up the palin article full of controversey and leave it out of Obama's. When you confront him on it, he has a nice little pre-packaged excuse "well thats over THERE and this is HERE...two wrongs dont make a right....blah blah". Its all bogus. If you go out of your way to describe all of Palin's churches including their theology, then you have to mention black liberation theology on Obama's article without issuing the repetitious excuse of "these are two different articles", because thats the point-- that is precisly how the typical white male tekkie wikipedians exploit wikipedia with POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 (talk) 08:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I completely ignore the foregoing anon rant and respond to Phlegm Rooster's serious point. The quotation is from a member of the church who highlights one difference from the other church, but doesn't even allege that Palin told her that that difference is why she switched. (BTW, speaking of "that that", I note that the Times removed a "that" in quotin from the video. Shame on them.) I think it's too peripheral to the Palin bio to include what amounts to speculation about her reasons for choosing one church over another. JamesMLane t c 09:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the pro-Palin folks should be happy that the Palins were smart enough to get out of that church while the getting was good, unlike Obama. And the speculation was by someone who has known her since the third grade. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 10:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Has she changed churches, though? She spoke at the Assemblies of God back in July, when its pastor stood next to her on the stage and thanked God that she was Governor because she'll know what to do when the apocalypse comes and hundreds of thousands of Americans flood to Alaska. ANd she invited the founder of that Church to preside at her inauguration. Isn't she keeping a foot in both camps? And this "less extreme" church, the one she moved to, is the one where she sat and listened to David Bricker of Jews for Jesus describe terrorist attacks on Israel as the judgement of God, and then listened as her new pastor prayed for the conversion of Jews. 86.140.233.58 (talk) 10:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC).

In the Time interview she said her family switched from Roman Catholic to non-denominational. No mention of other churches. T0mpr1c3 (talk) 11:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read the Time interview. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 12:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Do not concur with inclusion. Palin's religious views are already succintly and appropriately summarized in the Personal section of her biography. Her attendance at this or any other church provides nothing to alter the veracity or accuracy of those views. The inclusion of any church affiliations is a clear attempt to place undue bias and "guilt by association" (if, in fact, the church is "guilty" of something), and it does not belong there unless RS have evidence that a) she participated in ritualistic religious behavior outside of the norm, and b) her governing policy was demonstrably influenced by religious beliefs outside of the norm. I just checked, and it appears the maintainers of the Obama article has also resisted attempts to paint him through tangential church affiliations as also not meeting that criteria, with which I agree. Finally, the MSM is divulging much more researched background information on Palin now that some time has elapsed since her precipitous thrust into the spotlight. I would suggest others do more thorough research against current sources as well before requesting inclusion in this article. Fcreid (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm neutral myself, but I trust folks here to puzzle it out. At the risk of repeating myself; it means she found the church too extreme, and left. If you are 44 and have known someone continuously since you were both 8 years old, your opinion can be said to be "well-informed". I think it makes the Palins look better, so if it doesn't go in the article because the pro-Palin people here oppose, it's no skin off my back. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 20:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sarah Palin Article Is Going Stale

This process is obviously not working. There was a total of 1 updates in the past 16 hours to the article and this was made by a passing admin who made a change without concensus. The review process to decided who did what will take a long time as the article gets older. The editors are losing interest over having to debate over a minor update. As a result no updates are happening. Sitedown (talk) 12:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not a "perfect" article at present, but it's not bad either. If you contrast it against [16], it appears the hard work over the past ten days paid off in reaching accuracy through consensus. What specific issues do you think make it "stale" and warrant immediate inclusion? Fcreid (talk) 12:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Last I checked, WP was an encyclopedia. How can an encyclopedia article go stale in 16 hours? Ronnotel (talk) 12:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It's been days since any edit of substance has been made. And one doesn't have to look far for issues that require resolution. Spiff1959 (talk) 12:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

So, chip in and help forge consensus on the outstanding issues.--Paul (talk) 12:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It is impossible with the majority blockers in place. I have given up. 66.186.173.180 (talk) 12:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

So you are asserting your right to add material that has not gained consensus? Ronnotel (talk) 13:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Are there any edits of substance and WP:CONSENSUS that have been ignored? If so, let me know and I'll be happy to add them. Ronnotel (talk) 12:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Ronnotel, do you think we have enough consensus on beluga whales yet? T0mpr1c3 (talk) 13:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It's getting close. Can you please make an edit request with specific language. If no one bleats I'll consider adding. Ronnotel (talk) 13:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

AdminPedia I have no idea what needs to be added or removed because I am not a subject matter expert on Palin and I can not imagine any of the administrators here are either. Millions of people will visit this page and a percentage of people who do are subject matter experts and have important verifiable facts that need to be added or changed. This is the whole purpose of a wiki. It is not the responsibility of the admins to make an article "perfect" before it is unlocked and since information changes by the minute on a person it would be impossible to ever make it "perfect". My understanding is the reason the article was locked was due to hacking of the page and that maybe valid for a very short period of time (although it is quicker to press undo then argue about what should or should not be included). I am disgusted by this behavior and believe it is not in the spirit of wikipedia, democracy or freedom of speech. Sitedown (talk) 13:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS is non-existant and unattainable. Incontrovertible issues of unsourced bias, or easily verifiable factual errors, go unchanged if a single person lodges opposition. Proving that opposition unwarranted bears no fruit. WP:CONSENSUS apparently means that in order to replace blatant flaws in this article, one must produce a perfect edit that garners universal approval. For the shortest read in my list, review the merits of "Edit request: 2008 vice-presidential campaign - Convention speech" 216.170.33.149 (talk) 13:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC) (Pardon, I neglected to login) Spiff1959 (talk) 13:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Can you point to any "easily verifiable factual errors" in the article? I highly doubt admins would raise objection to correcting such an error. Hobartimus (talk) 13:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The issue is not what is in the article but what is not. Until the article is unlocked no one will know what that information is. I can't believe this argument is still ongoing. I have not heard one valid reason why the article can not be semi protected. Sitedown (talk) 13:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If anyone's bored after that firxt read, look at the major edit that took place just before the lock to the text discussed in this talk-page section and subsection: "Suggested edit to Public Safety Commissioner section" and "Gripes" Spiff1959 (talk) 14:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC) You'd of thought I'd of at least been able to correct an unsourced global assertion of total media praise attributed to the Palin speech in over 2 days? Or put sentences into a chronologically-correct order to properly portray the factual order of events in the Public Safety Commissioner section in 2 days? Both of continuing violations impart a particular bias. This page need to be unlocked now, or have a bright shiny POV tag pasted smack on the top of it.

You are only furthering the beating of the dead horse into glue. It's been largely discussed at AN, ANI, AE... with consensus to keep the page fully protected for the short-term. You're a pretty new user (judging from your contributions), so it is understandable you didn't read the countless threads on this topic. seicer | talk | contribs 14:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I reviewed the Arbitration discussion, the war wheeling pages, most of the on-and-on discussions about unlocking, semi-locked, full-protection a long time ago. I'm not sure what I saw is what I would call consensus. So, this flawed article is to remain intact, in it's current state, indefinately (beyond Nov. 4th?) due to turf wars amongst the admins, to the detraction of providing a quality, accurate product to the millions who pass through WP? (I'm a WWII buff, I had a WP login years ago which I've forgotten and contributed somewhat to those civil, less-ugly topics within WP) Spiff1959 (talk) 14:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I am a new editor but a regular user. My reason for creating an ID was simply because I could not believe this was occurring. I have read and already commented on a lot of the locations you mentioned where this is being debated and I continue to raise it either sarcastically or directly as it is not being resolved. When I stated it should be left locked until after the election it was obvious sarcasm to show just how ludicrous this is but now it appears this is actually the opinion of some people. This is CENSORSHIP BY LACK OF CONCENSUS.

I can only assume the majority of people who want to make updates do not have the time to debate for 2 days on if Palin was a member of the PTA or basketball team captain and then spend another 24 hours trying to get the wording correct so everyone agrees. Sitedown (talk) 14:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I will desist with any of my opinions as to the locked/unlocked status of this page as that is not within my purview. But you have to be kidding, you relegate the flaws demonstrated above to the triviality of PTA membership? Spiff1959 (talk) 14:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Pardon, I'm a bit frustrated and your sarcasm (temporarily) went over my head ;) Spiff1959 (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually that time was not an attempt at Sarcasm and I am concerned that anyone would refer to community work such as PTA membership as Trivial. Education of children is one of the key issues and Alaska has the highest drop out rates in the country [17]. So this is very important, so important Sarah has mentioned this several times in her speeches as the turning point in her career. I am not here to debate this though, my objection is to the fact this record is locked and neither Biden or Obama’s records are locked. This is very one sided politics and should not be occurring.Sitedown (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Spiff1959 I should not have lost it like that but I like you am frustrated and everyone has different views on what is or is not important. That’s kind of why wikipedia works so well. BTW I am neither a republican or a democrat or even an American for that matter so I am in no way biased either way. All I want is a wikipedia article on a potential VP of one of the most powerful countries in the world to have a neutral point of view so the people who do vote can vote responsibly knowing all the facts and not just the ones that were “approved by consensus” for submission. Sitedown is taking a break. Sitedown (talk) 15:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

No, I apologize. I in no way meant to belittle the importance of the PTA or even High School sports. I, too, am frustrated, and misunderstood your statement. I'd thought you were discounting my documented instances in this article of unsourced personal opinion, and a fictitious timeline, as trivial. Spiff1959 (talk) 16:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

• By saying "I understand the editors are in a bind, sorting out rumors, with Dems wanting to add truthful negative information and Republicans desperately trying to keep readers from knowing the truth." and more, you are clearly indicating your own bias, and may not be in a position to offer an objective opinion about what is neutral or not regarding this article. PHARMBOY (TALK) 15:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Unless I'm misunderstanding, a BLP article is not a "debate" forum, right? On the issues you mentioned: there was extensive talk regarding the book removal incident above with a multiple of sources cited and examined. Have you participated in that discussion? Just because you see it one way does not mean everyone does, and you will invariably find multiple reliable sources that interpret the event entirely differently than you. There was (or was approaching) consensus above. Why should your interpretation now trump all other editors and reliable sources? I don't recall discussion or proposal on the other issue you mentioned (the Wasilla budget), but have you proposed an edit for discussion and consensus? I think the fundamental problem is what I mentioned above. People are trying to use this person's biography to grind their political axes. Certainly that's not appropriate when multiple RS provide entirely different conclusions (and often entirely different "facts"). The article must strive for neutrality. Fcreid (talk) 15:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality will not and can not be acheived until the article is unlocked like every other politician. Sitedown (talk) 15:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, POV tags should be added until this article can undergo a through assessment by the community, which will take time. Right now its neutrality is in dispute and that should be clearly noted.Neutralis (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. I agree, sadly. A "disputed" tag is appropriate. --Evb-wiki (talk) 15:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Whether I agree or not is irrelevant, as I have nothing to do with that decision. Based on my understanding, the admins were going to wait until the page hit volume subsided, as BLP violations can be much more egregious when tens of thousands of users are reading that content. It looks like the "Political Positions of Sarah Palin" article is unlocked... why don't you work on that one? Fcreid (talk) 15:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we go work on a spinoff? A good response might be that the majority of the readers will get their misinformation from this page, and not bother delving into the sub-articles Spiff1959 (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC).

• Any editor can join in the discussions on the talk page to propose changes to the article and to help achieve consensus on any changes. Those that claim that the article is biased without participating, and those who continually post poorly-sourced and libelous charges on this talk page are only prolonging the protection of the Sarah Palin page. It is partisan anger that got the page protected in the first place.--Paul (talk) 15:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The right reason for the temporary use of a POV tag is to alert the reader that an article may fail to adequately reflect all points of view, with the intention of encouraging more participation in consensus building. Once consensus has been reached, the tag is removed. The wrong reason to add a POV tag is when one side in an editing dispute fails to gain consensus on their preferred version. In this case, it's difficult to argue that all points of view are not being adequately represented. That some feel their input is not sufficiently represented in the consensus version that is adopted would fall under the wrong reason to add a POV tag. Ronnotel (talk) 15:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The point is there is zero consensus on the stuff that's up here. I have tried to change it several times and I can't get consensus on my change because everyone wants to assert POV. My earlier changes were all reverted without any explanation and then the page was locked thereafter. I tried to work on the talk page several times (and many archives ago) and my suggestions were just ignored. Not responded to. Every change I've made, all duly sourced by reputable sources, has been reverted back without explanation and locked. And people have been extraordinarily uncivil. If you want me to name names, I will, but I'd rather not make it personal. This is a more systemic problem.

All I'm saying is that let's post truthful, balanced information. If you want to balance the positive with the negative or the negative with the postive, fine. But what we have here is the locked remains of Young Trigg, the probable political operative who created this puff piece to begin with.

These early changes then locking the door is kind of like someone stealing my money and then saying, "The case is closed. I won't discuss giving the money back unless you and I agree on whose money it is." And I say, "The money is mine!" And you say, "Sorry bud, no consensus. Case closed."

Right now, I'm not arguing for a particular edit. I've learned the hard way it's practically impossible. Every well-sourced edit I put in gets reverted and people refuse to dicuss why. I'm just saying there is ample disagreement that the version of this article represents anything close to neutral POV. And that disagreement should be reflected with a POV tag until we can all agree (consensus!) that the article expresses all the truthful descriptions of this woman's life, including things she's done that can be perceived in both a negative and positive light.

Once we at least acknowledge disagreement, we can work on our differences. But to pretend, in an Orwellian kind of way, that there is no disagreement, makes me think any attempt at working out our differences is hopeless.GreekParadise (talk) 16:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

"But what we have here is the locked remains of Young Trigg, the probable political operative who created this puff piece to begin with." I don't know who is pushing this argument, but here is the Early morning Aug. 28, 2008 version of article. I would think that any unbiased observer would conclude that current article is VASTLY more critical of Palin than it was 10 days ago. and "Young_Trig" didn't "create this puff piece" he (or she) started with an existing 2200 word consensus article.--Paul (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll make you a deal, slap a POV tag on Obama until you include mention of black liberation theology in his article and I'll support a POV tag here....sound good? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Johnson cites -- page numbers

{{editprotected}}

There are currently 13 cites to the Johnson book. I'll list here the pages to which those cites refer, and request that some administartor add them.

a - p. 15; b - pp. 15-16; c - p. 17; d - pp. 27-29; e - p. 31; f - pp. 27, 30; g - p. 21; h - p. 45; i - p. 65; j - p. 80; k - p. 81; l - p. 107 (there's probably a better cite for this elsewhere); m - p. 39.

The book also contains some insight into the librarian firing, but lets do the non-controversial edits first before getting into that. Coemgenus 15:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Great job. Kudos. I support the expedited addition of page cites. Thanks, Coemgenus. --Evb-wiki (talk) 15:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

a, b and c are all in the same paragraph and no other source is used in the paragraph. I'll do this as one citing pp 15-17.

d, e, and f are all in the next paragraph and no other source is used in the paragraph. I'll do this as one citing pp 27-31.

None of the other uses are combinable. So we'll end up with 9 separate references for the book. But unless we totally change the reference style to a notes & references, this is unavoidable. And I can't recommend a change to the reference style here. Unless I hear an objection soon, I'm going to do this. GRBerry 16:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

•  Done [18]. (ec). GRBerry 17:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps something inline with WP:CITESHORT would be in order? It still keeps 9 references to the book, but it at least reduces the amount of typing.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

That section is what I had in mind when I mentioned changing the referencing style on the article. But changing referencing styles is usually considered contentious enough that it shouldn't be done without a consensus for such a change. (I think the contentiousness relates to edit wars from before my time about reference style A versus style B.) If you think you can generate consensus for that change, more power to you. I certainly wouldn't object. GRBerry 17:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for adding those page numbers. I don't think a style change would be contentious, at least not when dealing with a book, as opposed to a newspaper article. When I rewrote Calvin Coolidge and Grover Cleveland, I cited in that style and no one raised objections. Coemgenus 17:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Media coverage

• {{editprotected}}

Proposed edit--Rtphokie (talk) 16:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC):

The McCain-Palin campaign refused interview requests for Palin saying calling the news media "piranhas" complaining that Palin was not being treated with "respect and deference." Reporters have expressed concerns with the lack of opportunity to ask questions directly of Palin. Since the annoucement as McCain's running mate, Palin has granted a single interview to People Magazine and Charles Gibson of ABC News.

Oppose If this is relevant at all (and one can argue that WP:RECENT and WP:Wikipedia is not a newspaper suggest it is not) it would be relevant to the campaign article, not the biography of Sarah Palin.--Paul (talk) 16:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this would be more appropriate for the campaign article. Kelly ^hi! 16:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Support some reference to this although the suggested wording could be improved. Her selection by McCain was an important event in her life. It's reasonable for her bio (as well as the campaign article) to include brief reference to the immediate consequences: (1) She gave a convention speech that was well-received by the Republican Party faithful; (2) Immediately thereafter, instead of plunging into a whirlwind of campaign activities, she was largely sequestered, a step that drew some criticism. Our article now includes the first point but omits the second. Both of them are relevant to the campaign and to her bio. JamesMLane t c 19:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

POV

• {{editprotected}}

--Proposed edit until consensus is reached for reasons stated above. Otherwise, people who go to this encyclopedia will think that consensus has been reached when it clearly has not.--

GreekParadise (talk) 16:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose:Disagree for now, can you be more specific? Kelly ^hi! 16:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose: As above, I think this is a poor reason to insert a POV tag on this article. Ronnotel (talk) 16:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose I don't like most of her politics, but the article is neutral in regard to the facts. The debate about adding additional content that doesn't favor her is a separate issue. While the article isn't as up to date as it could be (and Wikipedia policy is clear that it is better to be out of date than to try to be a news source) doesn't make the article POV. Again, I am not a fan of hers, but there does seem to be a fair amount of people determined to turn the article into a political tool, which is NOT the purpose of Wikipedia. PHARMBOY (TALK) 16:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose The typical wikipedian: a white male under 35, who favors legalizing pot, is a tekkie, leans socialist, is pro-obama, despises conservatism....of COURSE you think its POV. You want to shove more controversy in it...like talking about speaking in tongues, etc. Funny how the words "black liberation theology" is no where to be found on Obama's article. But Palin/McCain now have a 10 pt lead in the polls, and I understand how desperate you are. You have to save Obama! You got to get that controversy stuffed in this article.....these are desperate times!! 17:09, 8 September 2008 24.18.108.5 (Talk)

Reminder: comments like this do not factor into consensus.--Tznkai (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose, for the time being .... someone should condense what the issues are and then the validity of a tag can be weighed. CENSEI (talk) 17:26, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose no valid reasons have been given for the adding the tag - this seems to a request based on frustration that the article is locked rather than actual material problems --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose -- I don't see how this would help resolve anything, and I'm not sure what particular POV you're suggesting exists. Coemgenus 17:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose with caveat While small portions here and there are subtly unbalanced (in either direction!), I don't see any overall problem with neutrality. The disjointedness present here is very common with a high interest article with polarized perspectives. I would revisit this if someone was more specific. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 19:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - NPOV icons are an admission of defeat, that we can't work out how to edit an article. Page protection more or less says as much. The very idea of consensus on a POV tag is baffling, and asking for an NPOV tag to go in under page protection seems doubly odd. POV tags are usually added only after one fails to gain consensus for something. If we had consensus together to say that the article has a POV violation we might as well get consensus together to make a protected edit to fix it? Wikidemon (talk) 19:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose on the basis of what is being proposed as POV problems below. Kaisershatner (talk) 20:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose I do not see what the proposal states as being a POV bias in the article. It seems we've removed the major POV problems are are chipping away at minor problems now. --98.243.129.181 (talk) 20:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose any tags on one of our highest trafficked articles, but more on principle than anything else (I think tags are evil and unprofessional, and are too self-referential). Of course the neutrality is disputed. It always will be, from one side of the aisle to the other, depending on who's editing. Political articles are pendulums, which by laws of physics, eventually will settle into a very nice article with smaller and smaller undulations. With or without a POV tag. I will always "vote" without, for any tag, especially for a highly visited article. Keeper ǀ 76 22:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose The only complaint I see is that some editors want to lard up the article with every single Dem talking point about her. Sorry, that's not what Wikipedia is for. A.J.A. (talk) 04:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree

Agree I would prefer the article was unlocked but if we can't get that then this is a good start. Sitedown (talk) 16:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree Wholeheartedly. Spiff1959 (talk) 17:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree The objectively of the article is in dispute even though the majority might think it is fair. In reading though the talk page archives it is clear that many of the changes made were based on democracy rather than clear consensus. It would be best at this time to denote the article does not represent a neutral point of view and begin working to achieve it.Neutralis (talk) 17:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree -- A POV tag would not be unreasonable, considering the ongoing discussion here. On the other hand if people want to help get either Senator Obama or Senator McCain elected they will probably do much better to volunteer at their local campaign office rather than fooling around on WP. :-) Steve Dufour (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree -- Just putting in a vote for my own proposal. Now it's 7-5.GreekParadise (talk) 19:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree, and in a case like this, it shouldn't be a vote, but an indication. The current situation is that enough people are concerned about POV for it to be POV-tagged. Our concerns should not be dismissed. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 22:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree only if equal treatment This article deserves a POV tag only if Barack Obama and John McCain also get one. 3 or 4 articles have POV. Only Joe Biden's article is decent. Even that has POV but it's not nearly as bad. 903M (talk) 01:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Comment Can you provide some specific examples of POV within this article? Just because there is a content dispute it doesn't mean that the article itself is POV. Heck, the content dispute could be over things that make a NPOV article POV... --Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

it doesn't bash her enough...we need to talk about speaking in tongues, and being 'saved'....more controversy! Scrolling up you can see several people wanting to include more about her pentecostal religion and controversial items. But I'm reasonable, I'd support to slap the POV tag on if the Obama article will put one on too (or talk about black liberation theology, which is nowhere mentioned in the Obama article) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 (talk) 18:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If you don't agree with something in the Obama article then change it and I will change the areas I don't agree with on Palin's article. Oh yeah thats right - I can't cause it's locked. This is why we need to put the POV flag on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sitedown (talk • contribs) 18:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Certainly, Bobblehead. My problem is I'm trying not to get into any specific content war but simply get people to admit that a dispute exists. Right now we have a 7 - 5 vote saying that no controversy exists. But I don't think majority rules. If 5 say a controversy exists, a controversy exists!

Here are some of the things I would change if allowed. They are all well-sourced facts. They are admittedly not a very positive portrayal of Sarah Palin, but as postive portrayals have been included, the more nuanced truth (including negatives) should be included as well. Warning: I am not now trying to argue for this or that point. Only to note that these are points on which consensus has not been reached. While this list is far from complete, there is no mention currently of the following indsiputable facts in the article.

Wasilla had 5,450 people when Palin was mayor, not 7000.

Palin hired city administrator to run Wasilla when mayor

Palin raised sales taxes 38%, including tax on food

Palin began with 0 debt and left town in $22 million debt

Palin flew annually to Washington to get earmarks

Palin's earmark request for Alaska was largest (per capita) of any state

Kilkenny allegations of cronyism and incompetence (similar allegations in Anchorage Daily News too)

Troopergate: Palin denied calls before admitting them

Troopergate: Legislative investigation starts before Palin admitted to calls —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiff1959 (talk • contribs) 19:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Controversy over going into labor in Texas then flying 4000 miles to Alaska to have baby there without informing airlines

Banning book scandal is definitely NOT consensus. Who pretends the firing of the librarian was not due to her refusal to ban books? Show other side.

Palin had harsh history with Republican State Senate President Lyda Green, a former cancer victim. Palin called her a "bitch" and a "cancer to Alaska" on live talk radio

Palin's flirtations with the Alaskan Independence Party - I know this is controversial. That's why there's no consensus, but husband's membership, plus attending two or three conventions, plus giving welcoming address six months ago? You can't argue it's nothing.

Palin's supporting Buchanan, according to Buchanan. Both sides of controversy should be mentioned.

Again, I'm not trying to argue for inclusion at this time. Just trying to. say there's an obvious controversy. Others can add things that they feel are disputed or NPOV. Let's just add the POV tag until we arrive at a conensus on at least most of these.GreekParadise (talk) 18:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

A good example would be the political positions which does not seem to clearly reflect the factual ascertations of the daughter article. The selective inheritance of views which make up the summary seems to be pushing a point of view by what is not included. Neutralis (talk) 18:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Two points. 1) The daughter article has become quite unbalanced in places, so this comparison may not wash. 2) I appreciate the list of controversies, but point out that threading that list in in a contextually readable way would greatly unbalance the article. To really assess the overall article, one would have to hold up a similar list of controversies included, as well as similar lists of noncontroversies both included and not. At least in proinciple.

Perhaps a better solution is to prioritize this list: rank the top 10 (say) topics for proposed inclusion with ranking reasons and open for discussion. Some might be better in. Many won't. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 19:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Per *Restore_large_protection_notice*, replacing the protection tag would serve the purpose by informing readers & would-be editors why "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" cannot be edited and explain generally the unresolved disagreements between editors. --Evb-wiki (talk) 19:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

GreekParadise, the issue I have is that many of those things you list are debunked or misleading in their formulation (have you stopped beating your wife?). The debt, for example, which I believe was a result of the town's decision to build a large capital project. The "support for Buchanan" which is a total red herring (she is on record as working on the Forbes campaign and has also stated she wore a Buchanan button when he spoke in her town not because she was behind his candidacy). The Lyda Green stuff is also, as you have presented it, slanted (she called a cancer patient a bitch! OMG!). Harsh words for a political opponent but not exactly like she ran to the cancer ward to pull the plug on her or something. Those are just the three most obvious (to me) places where your list is misleading. Some of the other stuff (not informing the airline?) IMO doesn't exactly rise to the level of controversy, and isn't treated as such in other wikiarticles (Obama. Ayers. Black Liberation Theology.) Kaisershatner (talk) 20:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Technically, only $15 million of the debt was for the sports center. Although, $1.3 million of the cost for the sports center was because they started building the infrastructure before they actually owned the land and someone else snatched it up and they claimed eminent domain on the land.[19] --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Isn't the solution to speech more free speech? Say that the debt is caused by the sports center. Say that Buchanan remembers her and Todd as being "brigaders" at a fundraiser in 1996 and that she said she worked for Forbes then (but never addressed Buchanan's claims. They can both be right you know.) This is more than the button. This is Buchanan personally saying it happened in 1996. The button incident was 1999. The Lyda Green stuff is true. Maybe Palin thought she was a "bitch." Give Palin's point of view on why she hates Green. But the comment was recorded on live radio. It's a fact. We could even provide an audio link. The airline thing was discussed at length in the Anchorage Daily News, but it's not on my top list of priorities. My point is I'm all for giving both sides. But to include only the positive things said about her and none of the negatives seems to me unfair.GreekParadise (talk) 21:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

At any rate, my point is there should be a POV tag, NOT to argue the specifics. I'm saving that for later. Can we at least agree to disagree, i.e. agree there's no consensus?GreekParadise (talk) 21:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

From someone who was listening to that live radio broadcast when it first aired, Sarah Palin never called Lyda Green those things. It was the DJ who was doing the interview, (who says he did not know Lyda was a cancer survivor at the time of the remark).Zaereth (talk) 23:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

New Biography about Sarah Palin

A suggested link under "External Links" to a new biography about Palin, scheduled to release October 10, according to the press release.

New biography: Sarah Palin: A New Kind of Leader by Joe Hilley

Finz7 (talk) 17:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Unlikely, to say the least. We'd only include it if the biography itself was available online, and only afterwards. We won't include spam links. GRBerry 17:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Restore large protection notice

There was never consensus for Jossi's change to the small padlock icon. Please restore the large notice. Previous discussion here, here, here and here. Mike R (talk) 17:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Support - I actually think is also the proper resolution for the POV-tag request issue being !voted on above. The large protect tag contained the specific reason why the article was locked. --Evb-wiki (talk) 19:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Support, users need to know that the article can't be edited, why, and what to do to get it edited. The only argument I've seen for not having it is "it is embarrassing for Wikipedia", not an appropriate agrument for such a high visibility article--part of the strength of Wikipedia is to admit it is a work in progress, with disputes that in the end built better articles. There are raging disputes here, but this fact is being concealed for the sake of Wikipedia's "image". Phlegm Rooster (talk) 22:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose per reasons I gave at the POV tag vote. Too self-referential (to my knowledge, I didn't participate in any of the prior discussions, I don't recall seeing them until Mike R linked them here now). Of the millions of people that come here to get information about any subject, the first thing they read shouldn't be an internal tag, no matter what the tag says. Find me a tag that spans all the way across the browser window that says "This is one of Wikipedia's best articles!!" for our featured articles (this certainly isn't one of them) and I'll perhaps change my mind. Keeper ǀ 76 22:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should nominate the tag template for deletion, if you feel that way about all articles, Keeper76. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 22:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Just an additional comment if anyone is looking for non-Palin specific rationale(s) for not including this, or any tag, can be found at this user essay. Just an essay, one I agree with. I did not say I want them deleted, just not used, especially on high profile articles. I've used them myself, on NPP for example, or for general cleanup issues. 2 million visitors to a high profile article should not be immediately presented with a meta-tag instead of a lead paragraph about the subject article. Keeper ǀ 76 22:36, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit request: Public Safely Commissioner Dismissal

I request that the sourced statement in which Palin stated that no pressure had been applied on Monegan to fire Wooten be reinstated. It is a newsworthy portion of the article and was redacted just prior to this article being protected.

I also request that the sentence regarding the Aug 1 announcement of a legislative investigation be moved up 6 sentences, from the end of the section, to a chronologically-correct position before the sentence regarding Palin confirming there had been multiple contacts from her office regarding Wooten (Aug 13). Spiff1959 (talk) 18:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed edit revision draft 1:
"On July 11, 2008, Palin dismissed Public Safety Commissioner Walter Monegan, citing performance-related issues.[82] Monegan alleged he had been pressured to fire Palin’s former brother-in-law, Alaska State Trooper Mike Wooten, and that his dismissal was retaliation for his failure to do so.[85][86] Palin publicly denied that any pressure to fire Wooten had been applied on Monegan. On August 1, the Alaska Legislature hired an independent investigator to review the situation.[91] Palin then asked the Alaska Attorney General to launch his own internal investigation [11] which led to her acknowledging on August 13 that there had been over twenty contacts made by her administration relating to Wooten[12], one of which resulted in her then suspending her Director of Boards and Commissions, Frank Bailey[13]. Palin stated that most of those calls were made without her knowledge, and reiterated that she did not fire Monegan because of Wooten.[85][88] The legislative investigation is scheduled to be completed in October 2008.[85]"
Spiff1959 (talk) 19:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that discussed in detail at Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal? Kelly ^hi! 21:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. This is the summary in the main article that pertains to the spinoff you linked. Spiff1959 (talk) 21:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit request: Campaign 2008

I request that "and media analysts" be removed from the sentence stating that palin's speech was well-received by the crowd and media analysts. This is an overly-broad statement that constitutes personal opinion and is unsourced. Spiff1959 (talk) 18:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I Support the Edit request to remove the unsourced POV--MisterAlbert (talk) 18:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I concur. Not only is it a generalization that is unsourced, it's not universally true. I've heard and read several analysts who have pointed out several instances in that speech where Palin took liberties with the truth.--Appraiser (talk) 19:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree and I also support the suggested improvement. The statement is not only unsourced, it's false, as there were several media analysts who decried what they saw as Palin's excessive partisanship. JamesMLane t c 19:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I support this change as well. From what I've read it seems accurate, but it is not sourced and is just someone's opinion regardless. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

• Support, I wrote that, and have soured on it. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 22:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

• Support per Appraiser above. Keeper ǀ 76 22:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Political Humor Mark Fiore

I wonder if we put a request into Mark Fiore if we could upload some political humor on the page: --MisterAlbert (talk) 18:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

For various reasons (two killers include our coypright policies and maintaining a neutral point of view) we rarely include political humor in the article on the person who bears the brunt of the joke. It's also making fun of an underaged girl's writing abilities (see WP:BLP), and worst of all, not everyone would find it very funny. Mark Fiore has his own article, but considering that he lampoons everyone (but mostly conservatives), I don't think the fact that he takes aim at Sarah Palin this week is even notable to his own article. Wikidemon (talk) 19:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Fiore is not making fun of a young girls writing abilties, the Spoof is obviously based on the Dick and Jane reading books {See Spot Run} used to teach children reading skills in elementary {grade} school. The spoof reduces politics to an elementary level. --MisterAlbert (talk) 19:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If a particular bit of political humor were spread widely and could reasonably be thought to have had an influence on the candidate's image, we could so report (providing facts about the effect of the lampoon). At this point, however, neither Fiore nor anyone else has reached that kind of significance with regard to Palin. JamesMLane t c 19:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Time for semi?

We are approaching the point where interest in this article is merely high and not totally ridiculous. As such it may be time to consider returning to semi-protection, as is typical of most high profile articles. A new thread has been opened regarding this. Dragons flight (talk) 19:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The article has been unprotected. ffm 00:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Lobbying content

I removed the following from the daughter article on political positions of:

Palin has given jobs to friends and appointed lobbyists to oversee industries they used to represent. For example, Palin appointed a fund-raiser of hers, Deborah Richter, as director of the Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend Division, and she hired Cora Crome as her fisheries-policy adviser. An industry lobbyist, Crome had worked for the United Fishermen of Alaska, and had been married to a wealthy commercial fisherman. As mayor of Wasilla, she hired the town's first Washington lobbyist to direct federal earmarks to the city. The lobbyist was paid $140,000 and brought $27 million worth of projects to the small town.

on account that this did not describe positions but rather administrative activities. Due to the significance of that edit, I want to bring this material here and allow for discussion as to how to incorporate it here. I have no immediate suggestions except for that I do not see a separate new section as necessary. Anyway, have fun. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 20:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

"Gun control" as a campaign issue

It should be called Gun Rights. Gun Control implies that she intends to increase government control of guns, when in fact she seeks to do just the opposite- reduce government control of guns. She fights for gun owner rights, not the government's ability to control them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.252.180 (talk) 20:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Palin's views on creationism

So, who and why censored out Palin's view on creationism?!! There was once here a short and seemingly objective report on this, apparently censored by Palin supporters afraid of truth?

Those that find vice/presidential candidates views on major issues as being outside of scope of Wikipedia seem to want to censor the most important information about them. Surly more important and relevant, than exact birth date, picture, etc...

Why not adapt this quote from [OnTheIssues.org] which seems to be well documented and unbiased: see: http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Sarah_Palin_Education.htm  :

"Teach creationism alongside evolution in schools

Earlier this year, she told the Anchorage Daily News that schools should not fear teaching creationism alongside evolution. "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information.... Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both. And you know, I say this too as a daughter of a science teacher." Source: Boston Globe, "A valentine to evangelical base", p. A12 Aug 30, 2008

76.247.105.217 (talk) 21:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey I agree! There is alot of censoring on this page , which in itself is POV, by limiting what can and cannot be posted.--207.232.97.13 (talk) 21:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)Fred

You are aware that there is an article called Political positions of Sarah Palin and that article has a section on education and creationism? While you could argue that summary of her views on creationism being taught in school should be included on the main article, I wouldn't say her opinion on the matter is being hidden. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 21:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

50 times more people read this article than that one. There are numerous calls for an expansion of the political positions section. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 21:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

...which is why it says "Main article: Political positions of Sarah Palin" right in that section, so if someone does come here first (and 50 to 1, they do, probably more like 1000 to 1), and they are specifically interested in her political positions and not her personal biographical article, they know exactly where to click. Per Weight, the section looks fine. Keeper ǀ 76 21:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Request Edit for More Accurate Summary on Palin's Views On Creationism

I support you in an edit to this page of a more accurate summazation on her views on creationism. write you summary and submit for others. --207.232.97.13 (talk) 21:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)Fred

• Support, the latest AP profile mentions it, does not mention her support for other things, such as K-12 funding. Certain policies are more noteworthy than others, if the secondary sources are to be followed. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 21:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment Why is creationism being singled out? Many many other positions aren't included either. I see no "censorship", just a article that currently address no specifics and directs interested people to another page for those positions. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking creationism being taught in school alongside evolution is being pushed because it is one of those "hot button" views. Certainly not as up there as abortion, but certainly higher than where she stands on drilling ANWR. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment What is the proposed change? Everything depends on that.--Paul (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

How about something along the lines of the following. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I suggest this:

Many of Palin's political views are very social conservative: she opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest with the only exception being when the life of the mother is at risk , she is a member of Feminists for Life; she backs capital punishment,, opposes same-sex marriage, and favors teaching creationism alongside evolution in schools. She is also a member of the National Rifle Association and is a supporter of the right to keep and bear arms.

--207.232.97.13 (talk) 00:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)Fred

Many of Palin's political views are of a strong social conservative nature: she opposes abortion except when the life of the mother would otherwise be imperilled, and is a member of Feminists for Life; she backs capital punishment,, opposes same-sex marriage, and favors teaching creationism alongside evolution in schools. She is also a member of the National Rifle Association and is a strong supporter of the right to keep and bear arms.

Palin is known for her support of "individual freedom and independence", and she is known in Alaska for her strong opposition to what she views as excessive government spending and corruption. She has strongly supported development of oil and natural gas drilling in Alaska, including in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Her views on abortion need to be more specific. She opposes abortion even for rape and incest victims. --207.232.97.13 (talk) 22:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)fred

Isn't that already covered in "She opposes abortion except in cases where the mother's life is in danger"? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 22:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't : http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/101906/sta_20061019031.shtml --207.232.97.13 (talk) 23:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)fred

I suggest this:

Many of Palin's political views are very social conservative: she opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest with the only exception being when the life of the mother is at risk , she is a member of Feminists for Life; she backs capital punishment,, opposes same-sex marriage, and favors teaching creationism alongside evolution in schools. She is also a member of the National Rifle Association and is a supporter of the right to keep and bear arms.

--207.232.97.13 (talk) 00:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)Fred

Object to the edit that was just recently done by Bobblehead. She clarified about the difference with the creationism issue in regards to allowing "debate" to happen versus curriculum material. "favors teaching creationism alongside evolution in schools" doesn't make the distinction and actually implies official curriculum material. Sliming Palin Theosis4u (talk) 00:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Marathon Reference

{{editsemiprotected}} I think the mention of S.Palin's marathon accomplishment should reference the official result from that race organization's site: http://www.athlinks.com/results/6623/8598/Humpy-s-Marathon-Half-marathon-5K-Run-26-2Mi.aspx and no other biased comment. Thus reflecting a NPOV. --Gciriani (talk) 13:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

No objection from me--ThaddeusB (talk) 14:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Object/Don't object As long as it's just a reference, I don't object. But I object to including this level of trivial detail within the article itself. --Crunch (talk) 15:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

When I first read the marathon reference in the article, I was skeptical because I could not find a real reference supporting it as a fact. All sources referring to it where indirect reporting. Running a marathon under 4 hours requires commitment, and time (training 6 days a week, from 40 minutes up to two hours every day, for at least 4 months prior to the event). That's why I think a reference is a must in this case, otherwise you will have other skeptical readers. And that's also why this piece of news is relevant, because it reveals the character of the person, thus adding to the biography.--Gciriani (talk) 14:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

 Done Added the time (as it seems significant) & reference --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the reference to one that points directly to her result. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I object to the use of this primary source in th article. Has any secondary source noted her running time? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 02:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP does not say you cannot use primary sources, it just says that great care must be exerted when using them. Since this source does not reveal unknown personal details, it seems perfectly reasonable to make use of it. Now you could object to it on the basis that the marathon detail is unneeded trivia. It does seem like a rather unimportant detail. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Protection changed

Hey guys, I changed the protection from full- to semi-. I've made as many changes as I can to reflect its new status, but I can't load this talk page to edit it in its entirety on my dialup connection. Please make the appropriate changes to the FAQ and templates if you could. Thanks! Happy editing! kmccoy (talk) 00:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Let the POV onslaught resume! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

WOOHOO Great to see thanks for a wise decision. Sitedown (talk) 00:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Um was this done unilaterally or after the proper consensus formed? --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#Time_for_semi-protection. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 01:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

See [20] Couldn't read it yet but that's where they discussed it. Hobartimus (talk) 01:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Discussion began at 18:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC) there. Hobartimus (talk) 01:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Also note that the discussion's start was announced on this page several hours before the unprotection occurred. Dragons flight (talk) 01:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Palin

There is another discussion about what to do with Palin (it is currently a disambiguation page) occurring at Talk:Palin#Consolidated_and_clear_discussion. All of the options (moving, where to redirect to, etc) are presented and being discussed there. Oren0 (talk) 00:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Avoiding interviews

Palin has avoided media interviews during her vice-presidential campaign. Her campaigning has been confined to public appearances.

Interesting tidbit. QuackGuru 00:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks like she will be giving some (or at least one) this coming week so I don't really think this is accurate. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

It remains accurate until that actually happens, otherwise it is crystal ball gazing. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

VP Campaign

There is nothing here about her campaign besides the selection process and her speech. How about some more details. Here is some biased info I added that got RVed.

In sharp contrast to her Democratic opponent, Palin has avoided media interviews during her vice-presidential campaign. Her campaigning has been confined to public appearances. Therefore, Palin has thus far avoided answering questions about her public sector experience.

--Pgp688 (talk) 00:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I dunno, sounds kinda early to making this kind of blanket assertion, doesn't it? Also have problems with WP:POV & WP:UNDUE. Ronnotel (talk) 00:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Ronnotel on this. Let's give it a week or two. Wellspring (talk) 04:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Details and Fact Checking

The campaign speech with its details along with fact checking need added.

--207.232.97.13 (talk) 01:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)fred

This strong section strongly needs a strong stylistic face-lift

Many of Palin's political views are of a strong social conservative nature: she opposes abortion except when the life of the mother would otherwise be imperiled,[109] and is a member of Feminists for Life; she backs capital punishment,[110], opposes same-sex marriage,[51] and favors teaching creationism alongside evolution in schools.[111] She is also a member of the National Rifle Association and is a strong supporter of the right to keep and bear arms.

Palin say she strongly supports "individual freedom and independence",[4] and she is known in Alaska for her strong opposition to what she views as excessive government spending and corruption.[112] She has strongly supported development of oil and natural gas in Alaska, including in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.[55]75.111.161.156 (talk) 01:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

What exactly are your suggestions? Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 01:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I assume 75 would like to reduce the frequency of the word strong. I concur. In fact, simply excising the word entirely from that paragraph would be a positive step. Ronnotel (talk) 01:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

strongly agreed--Paul (talk) 01:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I support removing all strongs. They loose all meaning if everything is strong and thus cancel each other out. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:26, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

 Done --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Where is mention of the $22 million dollar debt she accrued while Mayor Details are being ommitted

Palin, who portrays herself as a fiscal conservative, racked up nearly $20 million in long-term debt as mayor of the tiny town of Wasilla — that amounts to $3,000 per resident. She argues that the debt was needed to fund improvements. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12987.html

She also claimed to have balanced her budget but omitted that during her six years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over 33%. During those same six years the amount of taxes collected by the City increased by 38%. She inherited a city with zero debt, but, despite the increase in taxes, left it with debt of over $22 million. http://www.opednews.com/articles/Sarah-Palin-A-Wolf-in-Moo-by-Anthony-Wade-080904-936.html

Also did anyone mention that funds she acquired from Congress, of 27 million dollars was for a little town of 6,500 people. http://www.opednews.com/articles/Sarah-Palin-A-Wolf-in-Moo-by-Anthony-Wade-080904-936.html

There are serious details being ommitted from this article.

--207.232.97.13 (talk) 02:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)fred

Since this is a biography of a living person, a higher standard of reliable sources is required, which OpEdNews.com is not. If you can find a proper source, propose an addition here and try to build a consensus for its inclusion. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

• It was $14.7M not $20M and it is already 1/3 paid off. These details are in the article already.--Paul (talk) 03:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Question

I added a more reliable source to the bit about smoking marijuana, though this edit removed undid it, replacing the link with what appears to be a blog-type article rather than CBS news. Thoughts? Thanks, –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 02:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

See this edit. The user didn't use sectional editing and undid a number of edits in err. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

In Her Two years In Office she has requested $750 Million In Special Federal Spending

More News Associated Press http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ici5RhMkh6-9V07yckpLBEEjzf6QD932MU100

The governor has cut back on pork-barrel project requests, but in her two years in office, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation.

And as mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million.

--207.232.97.13 (talk) 02:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)fred

You do realize that the governor doesn't directly request any earmarks right? You also realize that the bit from her mayor days is already in the article right? --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Levi's age

I was admonished for added back Levi Johnston's age as 18. Here is proof; [21] but I don't want to put it the article since it is a court record (for a fishing violation). The vast majority of the sources say he is 18. Any probs? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 03:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Paritcularly, you were admonished for going against a consensus that you knew about and for marking the edit as minor despite knowing that there had been a consensus to remove his age completely. The archive is at Talk:Sarah Palin/Archive 13#Levi Johnston's age. Accuracy was not at issue in the admonishment, nor is it really the issue in the consensus. GRBerry 03:29, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I missed that consensus, but I agree with it. I've removed the age per that discussion. MastCell ^Talk 03:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Consensus was that if we didn't know his age, we shouldn't get it wrong. If this source had been presented in that discussion, the result would have been different. Accuracy was at the core of that discussion, not any BLP violation, since dozens of media outlets were already saying he was 18. Do you doubt he is 18, MastCell? Phlegm Rooster (talk) 03:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

• I hereby request that his age be added back, take your time to develop a new consensus. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 03:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The detail is irrelevant to Sarah Palin's bio and should stay out. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

article proposal

With the protection continuing and admins insisting on concensus that will never come before making edits. I propose that all but the first sentence of the article be blanked. It's the only thing that can be agreed upon:--Rtphokie (talk) 03:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Sarah Louise Heath Palin (pronounced /ˈpeɪlɪn/; born February 11, 1964) is the governor of Alaska and the Republican vice-presidential nominee in the 2008 United States presidential election.

A) The full protection was removed several hours ago. B) Your proposal is silly.

So please go forth and edit in good faith toward a neutral point of view. Dragons flight (talk) 03:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Lengthy text copied from subarticle

Over 3000 bytes worth of text was copied into the article in this edit however this was only discussed at a different article talk page and not here [22] I oppose this addition as this article should summarize the life of Sarah Palin and not serve as a dumping ground for text from other articles. It should be the exact opposite, text should be moved FROM here to subarticles and then summarized briefly for providing proportional weight. As a result now we have a longer section on the "Bridge to nowhere" than the whole Vice Presidential campaign, or political positions or family life. I understand that intrest in this is high but how about linking to the article on "Bridge to nowhere" and not rehasing different subarticles here in extreme detail. Hobartimus (talk) 04:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I concur. The section is WAY too long. Resummarize as you see fit. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

What's needed here is a new article, akin to Governorship_of_Mitt_Romney. I don't have time to start it myself, however.Ferrylodge (talk) 04:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

See Governorship of Sarah Palin, now we need a good WP:SUMMARY here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Redlink in my edit summary

MOS:QUOTE says blockquotes are for quotes of four lines or more.Ferrylodge (talk) 04:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

"Lobbyists" section

This section seems highly messed up. First of all, two sentences are not enough for a separate section. But that's the least of the problems. We are told that Palin "appointed lobbyists" but the Governor does not appoint lobbyists. We are told that Richter was a lobbyist, but she was not; she was a fundraiser for Palin. We are told that Cora Crome oversees an industry, but she does not; she's merely an adviser to the Governor. And why just focus on Richter and Crome? Newsweek says: "As her attorney general, Palin chose Talis Colberg, a friend who specializes in insurance law." The Colberg appointment seems equally as notable, which is to say not very notable at all. I will remove this section.Ferrylodge (talk) 04:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)