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September 6

The selling of "White Trash" culture.

Does anyone have any idea why in the last decade the marketing of "white trash" culture (kid rock, nascar, trailer park comedies, reno 911, etc) has markedly increased? Now even politicians a la Hillary Clinton are speaking with fake southern accents. Why? Halli B (talk) 02:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

This goes back farther than ten years. See also: The Jerry Springer Show, Morton Downey, Jr., The Beverly Hillbillies, Shakespeare's plays, etc. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 03:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Rock musicians have used a fake southern accent since Elvis came on the scene. Edison (talk) 04:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton was First Lady of Arkansas for several years, and is married to a native-born Arkansan. It's entirely possible that his accent has rubbed off on her. Listen to Madonna speak. Corvus cornix_talk 04:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

What's a trailer park comedy, btw? Corvus cornix_talk 04:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Trailer Park Boys — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Could the perceived increase stem from oversimplification? I have no interest in watching cars turn left, no matter how colorful the logos, but equating NASCAR with "white trash" is as silly as equating Shakespeare with "guys wearing starched ruffs." It's possible to have a Southern accent, or to live in the South, without being white trash (or even white). --- OtherDave (talk) 14:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Basically all the items you list are just things on television, which is the lowest common denominator of the much broader "culture". --Sean 14:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

How did shakespeare get on the same list as jerry? ::shudder:: --Shaggorama (talk) 08:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

What is the name for this lame defense?

A common legal defense posits that the accused is far too clever and experienced to have blatantly committed such a foolish crime and not covered his tracks. E.g., "I've worked at this company for thirty years and know their systems inside and out. Don't you think that, if I wanted to I really wanted to embezzle funds, I would do it like that? This is clearly the work of an amateur!"

Does this type of defense have a name? Is it considered a fallacy?

There is a related (but generally less effective) defense used in some domestic abuse cases. I see it sometimes on Judge Judy. It goes: "Hit my wife? Hit my wife? Your honor, if I were to hit my wife, she wouldn't be in any condition to stand here and tell you about it!" I doubt that one has a name.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 04:55, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know a name for it, but it's clearly a fallacy - if doing a bad job of the crime meant you wouldn't be found guilty then doing a bad job would actually be a very good job. --Tango (talk) 05:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

And just because a person or company may have shown considerable skill or cleverness in the past does not necessarily mean they did so in the case in question. The second example in particular seems to be more of an ego trip than anything else. --S.dedalus (talk) 06:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Given the unlikelihood of success, a good name might be hubris. --- OtherDave (talk) 14:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Just because this argument works in movies and detective novels I wouldn't assume it has ever been used in real life. Do you have an example from real life? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I won't name names, but someone I respect used it onwiki when he was accused of sockpuppetry.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 23:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Question

Where can I find Australian sales numbers for video games? (Key word: numbers.) 124.181.254.143 (talk) 05:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

A company by the name of "GfK Australia" does most of the tracking. They sell their data - so you can't get it for free. The companies that buy it generally only use it for either (a) financial information on game companies or (b) to produce "top 10 charts" for the general public. It's clear that they must count the total number sold - but it never seems to be published anywhere - which could be a confidentiality thing - or that they want to make money from it. The trade organisation "Interactive Entertainment Association of Australia" (IEAA) also seem to keep track of this data - but they don't seem to publish it either. SteveBaker (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Article: Emergency Preparedness

Is there a article on this ? There are those hurricanes, earthquakes, fire, etc. 65.163.117.163 (talk) 08:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There are what are being called "Emergency Preparedness kits" being sold. Any articles on these things as well? 08:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.163.117.163 (talk)

Got old, forgot sig. LOL!65.163.117.163 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 08:45, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

If you had done a search for Emergency preparedness, you may have noticed that the term redirects to Emergency management. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 10:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There is also Hurricane preparedness, Earthquake preparedness, and possibly others, as well as Survival kit/Disaster supplies kits. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 10:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Reason I asked is that I have one of these. I'm in a hurricane prone area, also get tornadoes, servere thunderstorms, ice storms, heat waves, wind storms. 65.163.117.163 (talk) 17:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I hope those articles help, then. I recommend not giving your full faith to what the articles say, but to follow the references and external links mentioned in the articles. The references and external links may be more reliable and trustworthy than the Wikipedia articles. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

FEMA publishes a free preparedness guide online here. --Shaggorama (talk) 08:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

seemingly extra sensual perception

I was just walking around with my eyes closed and I got a strong feeling that there was something in front of me Iwalked on and soon found out that there was,what is that called and how does it work81.155.35.95 (talk) 10:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)Andrew kenyon-Roberts

One explanation: You (subconsciously) noticed that thing earlier when you had your eyes open, and your brain cued you in at about the spot it recalled the object. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 10:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, it might be extra sensual if you reckon you've got an additional sense (eg. a 6th sense). The usual term is extra-sensory, meaning beyond the senses (ie. nothing to do with the senses at all). But whether this is either of those, or simply coincidence, or something else again, I doubt we'd have any way of knowing. -- JackofOz (talk) 10:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

One simple way to find out: get a friend and a large sheet of cardboard. Close your eyes, and your friend randomly holds the cardboard in your path or out of your path. You start walking, and see how many times you crash into the cardboard. The example you've given is probably confirmation bias since you probably would not notice it if it wasn't there. --antilived^{T | C | G} 11:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

About how it works: I suppose you could also sense obstacles through minor variations in air pressure or air currents, and smell, in addition to the above explanations. Especially cardboard you should be able to smell if you are close enough. You might not be aware of this even if it is how you discovered the obstacles. Jørgen (talk) 12:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There was a report bouncing around the web a few weeks ago [1] that said that humans have a primitive version of sonar (like bats and dolphins) (oh - and now we have Human echolocation) - and a previous report showed that we are actually able to follow trails by smell (but not as well as dogs) and that we actually have a "stereo" sense of smell [2] - noticing the direction of a smell by the relative strength through our two nostrils. However, I'm with User:Twas Now - you simply have enough memory of the room layout and enough other cues to enable you to do this. For example - I can close my eyes and still see enough light through my eyelids to tell where the windows are. Sound reverberations let me know how close to the walls I am. No magic. No "extra" senses. SteveBaker (talk) 13:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There are blind people, such as Ben Underwood [3], shown in this YouTube [4] , who can echolocate amazingly well. He can rollerblade, and he can detect the presence and texture of surfaces. He lost both eyes as a child and has non-seeing prosthetic replacements. Even without making clicks with the mouth, ambient noise should change as you get close to, say, a wall. You hear a noise from behind you pass by, then you hear an echo from in front bouncing off the wall 6 feet in front a fraction of a second later. You take a step forward and you are 3 feet from the wall. Another sound not passes you and echoes from the wall, with the return delayed half as much as before. You deduce that you are getting closer to the wall. Edison (talk) 04:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Also your eyelids are not completely opaque, you can still detect changes in brightness ecen with your eyes closed. You could possibly tell if you walked into a shadow or close to a wall by the change in intensity. 192.45.72.26 (talk) 19:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Jim Corbett often found that he got a sense of where a man-eating tiger was even though he couldn't see it and frequently and changed direction or prepared to attack.Even though he had no visual sighting,the target was often exactly where he sensed it was.Quite a handy skill... Lemon martini (talk) 10:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

IBM location designed with own furniture, with paper in mind

A year or two ago, I read an article (written at the time, I believe) about the design of an IBM office building. It was supposed to be the first specially designed to improve the productivity of software engineers. I'm trying to track that article down, but I don't have any hard facts such as the name of the location or the publication, so I've had no luck with Google. Here are some things I do remember:

• The date was probably early 70s or thereabouts. I'm pretty sure the location was in the US.
• The building was designed alongside its own range of office furniture, intended to provide efficient use and storage of both the large amounts of paper printouts and punchcards still in use, as well as the video terminals coming in. In particular I remember a mention of especially deep desks to allow a stack of fan-fold paper to be laid out and opened to any point.
• The site consisted of several buildings, with projecting parts so that all developers had windows (perhaps they were X or H shaped overall?)
• Mention was made of an efficient system of paper distribution (they were still printing lots of code, and getting through stupendous amounts of it) from a daily delivery bay in the centre through a series of corridors and lifts. I remember that the corridors had specially smooth floors for the paper trolleys, and that there was an equally-developed return system for the used paper to a shredder and recycling pickup point.
• Developers were organised in cells of several offices surrounding a central point with a secretary and office machinery (and the end-point of the abovementioned paper distribution).

Ideally, someone would be able to locate the article (I would have previously read it online) but just an idea of the site name would be helpful in finding it. Thanks. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 11:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I know it's not in the US, but Google seems to be abuzz with references to IBM's Pilot HQ in Cosham, UK as being architecturally inovative and constructed in 1970/71. Fribbler (talk) 11:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but I don't think that's the one. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 16:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

In fact, mentioning the furniture in the search, and omitting the word "design", I've found what I was looking for: http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/171/ibmsj1701C.pdf . Thanks anyway. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 16:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you meant to eat the pinkish coloured part of a dragonfruit?

Obviously you're meant to eat the inside bit, but didn't know whether the outside was typically edible. Thanks. The article makes this unclear.--Flesh of dragonfruit (talk) 14:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The article says that the skin is not eaten, but never having met a dragon fruit I don't know if that is enough to answer your question. DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Yep, don't eat the skin, but the rest is edible. I didn't particularly like it much, but it was edible nonetheless. Steewi (talk) 05:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Predicted grades

Where do A-level predicted grades, which universities use to decide whether to accept an applicant, come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.246.239 (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

If you mean predicted grades on a UCAS application then they are provided by the applicant's adviser, who is normally a member of staff at their school or college - see UCAS adviser's FAQ here. I think it would be unusual for a university to decide whether or not to accept an applicant based on predicted rather than actual grades - by the time they are making that decision, the actual A2 grades should be available. A university will take predicted A2 grades (as well as actual AS grades) into account when deciding whether to make an offer to an applicant - but in most cases offers are conditional on achieving certain results at A2. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

library reference work

I need an estimation of the number of books and the number of articles that focus on library reference desks.

Thanks, 99.149.26.59 (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a tough question - but let's at least take a shot at it. An Amazon.com search for library "reference desk" turned up a couple of dozen books that looked somewhat relevant - maybe a dozen that were directly relevant. But I'd expect this to be a branch of "Library information science" - of which there are many hundreds of books written. Quite how many of those say much of interest about the reference desk - I have no clue. Google turned up at least a half dozen professional journals about "library and information science" - some of those have been in publication for 100 years - so I would hazard a guess that there were at least a couple of dozen English language books and a few hundred to maybe a thousand articles about reference desks. But I could easily be off by an order of magnitude either way - and that's without considering foreign language books and articles on the topic. SteveBaker (talk) 17:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! that's very helpful. 99.149.26.59 (talk) 14:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

There is an online database offered through the H.W. Wilson Company that is called "Library Literature and Information Science". This database indexes journal articles and books, focusing on the subject of librarianship. I am sure that one could come up with a healthy number of articles and books concerning reference desks in this database. Unfortunately, this is a subscription database, meaning that in order to use it, you must pay a fee. However, if you are near a large public or university library, there is a high chance that they will carry this database as part of their subscribed database coverage, and so you could physically go to such a library and do your research there in order to access this database. Hope that helps... Saukkomies 16:57, 11 September, 2008 (UTC)

And everybody should know about worldcat! Enormous db of worldwide library catalogs with a fast and pretty good search function. And it's freeeee. Saintrain (talk) 22:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I second your endorsement for Worldcat, Saintrain! However, to be honest, Worldcat does have its limitations. It mostly contains references to monographs, which are books and journal titles - NOT individual journal articles. So, if someone wanted to do research on a subject, and wanted to include journal articles in that research, then Worldcat would not be adequate on its own. However, Worldcat does a fantastic job of providing research support for books on a given subject. Saukkomies 08:18, 13 September, 2008 (UTC)

Feet Color

I was wondering why different people have different color feet soles, and why different parts of feet have different colors. I have seen pictures where the ball of the foot is almost orange, as well as right before the toes on the sole. What determines these colors?

John John9101 (talk) 17:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Calluses are the culprit. They develop in parts of the foot that experience repetitive pressure. The thickened skin has an orangey hue. Fribbler (talk) 18:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

...possibly due to Subsurface scattering through the thickened skin layer. SteveBaker (talk) 18:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Footwear storage with the Fat Man Who Never Came Back

My sister moved in with me last month, and now there are shoes lying over the place (mostly hers, but some of mine too).

Is there a stylish, tasteful way to organize and store a large number of shoes? I've been to the homes of people who have shoe-storing racks hanging from their doors, but I find these very ugly.

If you offer a suggestion, please also include a link to pictures of what you're talking about.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

One can get a thing which looks like a chest of drawers, but the "drawers" are concealed racks for the shoes. I don't have a picture to hand, but if I find one I will link it. DuncanHill (talk) 18:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Some of the things here [5] may be suited to your tastes. DuncanHill (talk) 18:11, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that gave me some ideas. I'm already finding some modern-looking stuff like this. After all, the Fat Man is, as Mick Jagger once sang, "a man of wealth and taste" (well, perhaps not wealth--if that were the case, I probably wouldn't be sharing an apartment with my sister).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Those shoe racks are the answer - but don't put them on (for example) your bedroom door - put them on the inside of your wardrobe or closet door(s). They still occupy an otherwise unused chunk of household space - but you only see them when you open the door to look for clothing and shoes. In my house, we have a large, tasteful octagonal wooden box - about 2 feet tall and 18" around with a heavy, hinged lid - (of an Asian/Indian design) - that sits by the front door where one or two pairs of "outdoor" shoes are kept per person when they are indoors - and where their house-slippers reside when they are outdoors. This has the benefit of avoiding outside dirt and mud getting tracked through the house. Those of us who need VASTLY LARGER numbers of shoes than any sane person could possibly require had better keep the damned things in the many, MANY, shoe closets set aside for that specific purpose or there will be trouble! My wife stores her shoes elsewhere. SteveBaker (talk) 18:50, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

A particularly advanced shoe storage system. DuncanHill (talk) 21:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The Steel Butterfly, whilst not exactly skinny, must not be confused with the Fat Woman Who Eventually Did Come Back... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:56, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

lol. I have a Malacañang Palace sitting by my front door and I swear by it. BTW, I love the title of this section. Not only does it actually refer to the topic of the question but it advertises who we'll be taking this adventure with. It's like a tv series but better. - Lambajan 03:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(Hmmm - I thought the title rather gave away the ending.) SteveBaker (talk) 19:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better suited as the title of the world's dullest call-in radio show.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

So what happened to the inquisitive Muslim academic movement?

As I try to find out what happened to the well-recorded history of the Muslim/Islamic movement that made astonishing discoveries and developments in architecture, mathematics, medicine, art, philosophy, politics, diplomacy, social order and obedience to the Koranic principle of tolerance, forgiveness, and understanding and acceptance of other religions and cultures, I am bound to question where these values, talents and leading-edge socio-politico-religioso qualities have gone. Is anyone here able to answer my question? And secondly, are we 21st century non-Muslim people of the same ONE GOD, destined for historical elimination in the name of Muhammed (pbuh), a 6th century disillusioned nomad? 92.18.169.254 (talk) 18:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

1. I don't know
2. In the sense that, as individuals, we will die: yes. In the sense that all non-Muslim believers in the Abrahamic god will eventually be killed or convert: no. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has some stuff on 1 at Islamic Golden Age#Causes of decline and Science in medieval Islam#Decline. Algebraist 21:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

So I suppose it can be deduced that current Islamic Terrorism can be equated to "babies throwing their toys out of the pram" because they can't always have it their own way????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.169.254 (talk) 23:39, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Liberal movements in Islam might help you to track it down. There are also some authors such as Ziauddin Sardar who argue that the inquisitive tradition is still alive and kicking. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

location of pic

Mehrangarh Fort in Johdpur

Any idea where this is? http://pixdaus.com/pics/m1gcnAlUqklXxSVLNz.jpg I believe it's in Thailand, but I was hoping to narrow it down more. Thank you. --Rajah (talk) 19:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The cliff-top position reminds me of the Dalai Lama's Potala Palace, since I was in Lhasa a few years ago - although, it clearly isn't the palace.89.240.241.186 (talk) 20:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it is in India, not because I recognize it, but because the picture gives you a clue. Looking very closely at the lower left hand corner is a URL: http://www.kepguru.hu, and here is a similar picture on that site under "India": http://www.kepguru.hu/index.php?a=browse&t=orszagok/india&pid=5307&n=27 Below is a thumbnail for image #31, which is your picture. With luck maybe someone else can narrow it down further. Crypticfirefly (talk) 05:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Note: http://www.kepguru.hu is in the lower right (I almost saved this as "lower left", too!) — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 05:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

WOW!

I think it's Mehrangarh Fort in Johdpur, India. Photo number 32 on that kepguru site (a view over the battlements to a town with lots of bright blue buildings) matches fairly closely with a photo (above, right) from WikiCommons that identifies it as that fort. The official site for the fort [6] has an almost identical shot to #32 from the KepGuru site - so if the two pictures on that site came from the same place (which seems REALLY likely) then we have a match. That's an utterly amazing place! It makes you wonder what kind of an army they felt they needed to defend themselves against! SteveBaker (talk) 16:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(That original photo somehow reminds me of Naboo in StarWars ep I - it needs more shiney chrome spaceships though.) SteveBaker (talk) 16:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

(More evidence) This photo [7] is of the tower in the background of your original photo. I think that's proof. SteveBaker (talk) 16:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks, everyone! --Rajah (talk) 15:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Illogical Affection for Saviour

An illogical affection for one's captor is termed Stockholm Syndrome but I can't remember what the term is for an affection of one saviour (i.e. being a bit more than just grateful). Is there such a term/syndrome, or have I been misinformed? --80.229.152.246 (talk) 21:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Why would it be illogical to be grateful to someone who has saved you? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:48, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The OP stated clearly that we're talking about being 'a bit more than just grateful' here. Algebraist 21:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what that means though. How much is a bit? What is considered "appropriately" grateful? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I read that as implying sexual attraction, but the OP might be working from a different codebook. Algebraist 21:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily, but inclusive of that yes. --80.229.152.246 (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

That would depend entirely on the circumstances and loan amount. Unfortunately I don't know any scales of affection that could be useful here, but I would suggest 'a degree of affection visibly greater than the degree that would be expressed by the vast majority of people'. A bit of a rubbish definition I know, but it might help. --80.229.152.246 (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. To define it more concretely, suppose we graph the "gratefulness" of a group of saved people, with the x-axis being "gratefulness" and the y-axis being the "number of people" to express x level of gratefulness; we should expect to see a normal distribution. You are interested in what we call the people at the far right of the x-axis, say the 99th percentile, or "most grateful", people. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:31, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

To get back to the point, using my "normal distribution" definition above, I have no idea what such behavior is called. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it's entirely rational. Someone has just saved your life, your survival instinct is going to suggest staying as close to them as possible. You can't get much closer than being in a romantic relationship. --Tango (talk) 01:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I have an example that might be like what you're talking about. Twenty-five years ago, I was swimming at a beach with friends of mine (a married couple and their 7-year-old daughter). We were all together, swimming in a safe area between the flags, within easy distance of the shore. But we were all taken out further by a rip. I'm an experienced surf swimmer, but if this hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't have believed how quickly it can happen; and you don't realise it as it's happening. When we suddenly noticed how far away from the shore we were, we started swimming back. But we made no headway; and after a while we were all getting exhausted. The daughter started to panic, and she tried to hang on to me because by that stage I was closer to her than her parents were. I did what I could, but she was becoming so panicky that she was dragging me down, and this threatened to drown both of us. We were still a long way out from the shore, and I was getting pretty desparate myself. Suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, four life savers appeared, and they managed to get us all back to the shore safely. For the rest of the day, the father expressed his profuse thanks to me for saving his daughter. I kept saying that I didn't do anything much worth writing home about, and if it hadn't been for the life savers, all four of us would probably have drowned. But this didn't deter him, and for months later, whenever we saw each other, he thanked me all over again. I was pretty embarrassed by this. Even if I had been instrumental in saving his daughter (which in my mind I hadn't been), expressions of gratitude can become inappropriate and almost offensive to the thankee when repeated too often. I never complained, because I understood where he was coming from. After a while, he must have sensed this over-the-top expression of gratitude was no longer necessary, so he stopped doing it. It wasn't a case of him becoming more "affectionate" towards me in a romantic/sexual sense, but our friendship did become stronger, and we're still in regular contact. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

This is, incidentally, why I am totally afraid of swimming in the ocean! Thanks for reinforcing my phobia, Jack ;-) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You're afraid that if you get swept away you will have Jack to cling on to? DuncanHill (talk) 12:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. Possibly that had a lot to do with fear? i.e. every time he saw you he was reminded that he could have lost his daughter and this set off a relief/gratitude response all over again? Just projecting how I might feel. --S.dedalus (talk) 07:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Completely aside, swimming against a riptide is unlikely to be successful. As our article indicates, you need to swim parallel to it so you can make your way around. Matt Deres (talk) 13:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

To be clear to anyone thinking of going for a swim: that should be parallel to the shoreline; perpendicular to the current. jeffjon (talk) 14:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Election fraud graph

Hi, I remember seeing a while ago a graph showing how an election had been rigged in favor of Vladimir Putin. If I remember correctly. X was the electoral bureaus ordered by participation rate, Y was number of votes and number of abstention. One curve showed the number of abstention being roughly constant until the participation rate reached about 75% where it declined, the other curve showed the number of votes for Putin being roughly constant until it mirrored the other curve into a climb. Meaning that ballot boxes had been stuffed with absent elector's ballots in favor of Putin. Has anyone the ref to this graph, I can't find it anymore? This graph is similar in principle but doesn't seem as clear as the one I'm looking for. What other methods are there to show fraud through graph? One example is here. I don't understand why the peaks mean fraud as such, why should it be a constant bell shaped curve? Thank you. 190.244.186.234 (talk) 22:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Those graphs may hint at fraud, but they're far from conclusive. It could well be that the other parties campaigned equally across all bureaus and Putin's party campaigned more in some than others, and in places where Putin didn't campaign people that would have supported him just didn't vote and in places where he did campaign, they went out and voted for him. That would result in roughly the same graphs. --Tango (talk) 00:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, except the whole 100% turnout bit for so many districts. That's the sort of thing you really only see in a rigged election. Even in elections of wildly popular candidates, you don't get 100% turnout anywhere, much less along the exact percentages that chart shows. Of course who knows where the data is really from. But if it's legit then that's compelling that something is up. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You would have to be pretty stupid to rig an election that obviously. I expect there's a flaw in how they compiled their data (some of it was from a source that rounded to the nearest 10%, say). --Tango (talk) 01:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

September 7

A somewhat morbid question about space travel

Let's say a manned mission to the Moon or Mars goes horribly wrong and one of the guys snaps and kills the other guys. Somehow NASA gets wind of it (he delirously brags, the circumstances suggest it, etc.) Would they send a second mission to get the guy to face justice, or just maroon him there, or what? Someone's probably made a movie about this (or will now) and I would be curious to know how this would unfold. How long could 2 or more guys stay cramped in a tiny spaceship without killing each other?THE WORLD'S MOST CURIOUS MAN (talk) 02:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Astronauts for long term missions go through all sorts of psychological evaluations before they leave, and while they're on the mission, to try and avoid anything like that, so the chances of it happening are very slim. There are plans in place to deal with someone going crazy in space (sedate them and tie them up with duct tape is the gist of it, I believe). In the event that someone went crazy and successfully killed the rest of the crew, I guess the response would depend on the details. I haven't heard of anyone having planned for that eventuality. The only missions to the Moon or Mars so far have been the Apollo missions and a rescue/capture mission for the crazed killer would have been impossible for them (he'd have run out of air long before they could get to him). If someone went crazy on the ISS and killed the rest of the crew, some kind of rescue/capture would be possible, and they would probably want to get the station back, so it's quite likely they would do something. I've no idea what, though. As for future deep space missions, I guess it would depend on whether another mission was already planned and far enough along the pipeline that they could bring it forward and get to the killer in time. --Tango (talk) 02:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like the backplot for Stranger in a Strange Land. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, it's been done lots of times, I think. Another example is one of the better early stories of Larry Niven (though not as good as some of his more mature work), How the Heroes Die. --Trovatore (talk) 21:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's something Ive never heard a plan for.- What if one of the guys just dies of natural causes? Are they gonna bring his dacaying, smelly body back on the 9 month trip back from Mars? Or just leave him there where "he died doing something that he loved"? And what if he drops dead on blastoff day? That's nine months there and back! Ewww.--THE WORLD'S MOST CURIOUS MAN (talk) 17:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Just stick him (or her) in his spacesuit and zip it up. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the suit might burst from the pressure build up durig decomposition, which could be far more then the pressure differential the suit was designed for. Edison (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If it's such a long trip, I would expect them to go for a space burial, just as people were buried at sea on long sea voyages. --Tango (talk) 20:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

As can be expected, NASA has certainly considered what happens if an astronaut falls ill is dies during spaceflight. This interesting, if a little sparse article by Mike Schneider, based on a NASA memo, discusses the issue. It also deals with the flip side of the coin that often goes hand in hand with death: NASA's stance on sex in space, or rather the lack of such a stance. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

NASA's stance on sex in space is that it doesn't happen, and any rumors to the contrary you may have heard are false. --Carnildo (talk) 00:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

And that may even be true right now... though frankly: none of the people who have spent several months in orbit together have ever bumped uglies, if only to satisfy their curiosity? I'm kinda skeptical. But, hey, maybe it hasn't happened. Still, once we start talking about going to Mars, what with that trip bound to take years, chances are that someone's going to get bored and horny and curious enough to give it a shot. I kinda doubt NASA is going to just ignore that. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

When I was working on a simulator for part of the ISS, I spent some time working with one of the astronauts who had lived for months on Miir. He was pretty clear that several people had "satisfied their curiosity" (an interesting euphemism!) and was able to go into a suspiciously large amount of detail on some of the "orbital manouvers" required...but I'd better not name-names here since it is indeed NASA's official line that it doesn't happen. SteveBaker (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

in zero gravity? WOW! Bradley10 (talk) 11:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

famous movie lines

i have read some famous movie lines before in wikipedia. i just type the title of the movie then the dialogues and lines of the characters showed up. i was trying to search it again i cannot see it anymore. how would i search it again/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.217.86.19 (talk) 03:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You probably want Wikiquote, one of Wikipedia's sister projects. --Tango (talk) 04:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

IMDB has a pretty good quote search; it just correctly found "I'd buy that for a dollar" and "I'll be taking these Huggies and whatever cash ya got". --Sean 15:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Why isn't there a robotic McDonald's yet?

A machine which produces hamburgers can't be too expensive to manufacture so why isn't there a McDonald's that is a lot more automated than it is now? Japan has McDonald's and is always perilously low on labor so why haven't they implemented the robotic McDonald's yet?

Lotsofissues 05:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It would be fairly expensive to manufacture and maintain a robot like that, whereas unskilled labour is pretty cheap. The minimum wage in Japan is less than in the US, and I would expect they can find minimal wage staff even with a labour shortage (students, for example). --Tango (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

See automat. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Expensive? I don't understand machines at all so please explain. What innovations need to be found to make it cheap? Lotsofissues 07:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If you have a machine, you have to make the machine, keep it working, protect against theft and vandalism, pay for an engineer to look over it periodically, and then still have to pay someone to stock it up, etc. etc. etc. If you have a person you pay them minimum wage, and if something goes wrong, they can probably fix it (unlike the machine). If you're talking about machines that do all of the cooking, you're introducing all sorts of potential problems—even something as simple as a machine that assembles cheeseburgers and makes french fries, I don't know, I'd be suspicious that it would ever be as cost-effective and fast as a cheap human, given the possibility of things going totally wrong in a situation like that (overcooking, undercooking, spillage, jamming, etc.). If a human messes up, it can perceive that and fix it pretty quickly. Machines, not so much. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 11:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I am convinced that they ALL are androids (on either side of the counter). The similarity with humans is as unconvincing as is the similarity of the produce with edible food. I always thought the little burgers look - and taste - like silicone breast implants on the sterile conveyor belt of an industrious "plastic" surgeon. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

After reading about what happened to Sonmi~451 I feel sorry for them. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

But hey, as I think about it, you could probably come up with something. The question is whether the R&D that would go into it, plus the installation and maintenance, plus the potentiality of customers being alienated by the whole thing, plus the possibility of getting into trouble with labor groups (who usually opposed replacing people with machines), would in the end be more profitable than paying humans to do it. I suspect not—or, at least, I suspect the uncertainties are great enough and the potential profits slim enough for it not to be worth the chance. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the Fast Food Workers Union would be outraged. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 13:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the previous respondants - don't think it's impossible to design such a machine. If you ever watched a donut making machine at work (YouTube), they are pretty complicated and have most of the same problems that a burger maker would have - yet they work perfectly and produce better, more consistent donuts than human operators can. I've seen one that could take half of them and frost them in sugar, and the other half and put chocolate on the top half and add sprinkles. That's very do-able. You can even buy a domestic version of the basic machine for $130 here.

But it's rare in any business for a machine to replace an entire manual process in one fell swoop. What usually happens is that the more repetitive steps are automated - then, when those machines are perfected, in general use and accepted, another machine will come along that connects several of those already-automated steps together into a single step - and so on until the entire process is automated.

McDonalds are something of a special case though - they are a franchise operation. McDonalds (the company) don't own or operate the restaurants that have their names on them. They sell ingredients, napkins, happy-meal toys, advertising, etc to franchisee's who actually own and run the stores. So the question is whether their franchisee's are prepared to pony up the research & development money for such a speculative thing. McDonalds couldn't consider doing it unless/until a large percentage of their franchisee's would sign up to buy one. But I don't think there are fundamental reasons not to do it from a technological perspective. Much more complex assembly operations have been automated in the past.

SteveBaker (talk) 15:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The book Fast Food Nation tells about one fast food company which designed a purely automatic burger maker, but it was more expensive to operate, due to the high initial expense and the high level of skilled maintenance required, than to take some teenager or unemployed low-skilled person off the street, give them a few minutes training, and put them to work for low wages at a repetitive simple task. Edison (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think a robotic McDonald's would be alienating. We have all heard stories about the lack of cleanliness at McDonald's. If robots replaced people, there will be new points to market. Lotsofissues 20:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That wouldn't fix the problems I have with them. For example - a good friend of mine spent a summer vacation working at one of their distribution centers. When the bacterial count in meat that's been sitting around too long exceeds the legal limits - they don't toss it out - they mix it 50/50 with fresh meat and thereby halve the count to bring it back within legal limits. A burger-making robot wouldn't fix such endemic problems. A general rule when computerizing a process (any process) is that computerizing a mess just results in a faster mess. First you have to get all of your processes sorted out - then you can computerize. Adding a robot to a dirty kitchen just results in faster dirt. SteveBaker (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Just because a robot is good at menial tasks and fast food work is often menial doesn't mean that robots would be appropriate substitutes for low-wage employees. Robots (and computers in general) excel at doing the same thing over and over again as quickly as you need them to. Adding numbers and driving rivets are good examples of this. They're terrible at being multi-functional. Let's say you have a stripped down McD's that only sold burgers, fries, and soft drinks. How many robots would that take? Let's be extremely generous and say that it's only three (one for each). There would need to be dozens of subsystems, but let's keep it simple. A scoop picks up some raw french fries, drops them in the oil, removes them at the appropriate time, salts them, and scoops them into containers as needed. Fine. What does it do between the times that it's busy? Well, nothing much really. It doesn't do you any good to fry up a hundred times as many fries as a human can, if you're not going to sell that much. So, you get a person to do that bit. Between the times they're making fries, that person can do other jobs, each of which makes it less economical to make robots do those jobs. It's a vicious cycle. In the auto industry it often runs the other way, where workers can't keep up to the automated processes, making their jobs more and more likely to be replaced. At a place like McD's, it runs against the automation for the same reason - you can't ignore the time factor. Factor in that many of the steps are already running at peak efficiency (thanks in part to computerized equipment) and you really don't have much of a return on investment. I'm sure there are a few McD's where you could really make use of robot-restaurant, but you're not going to invest huge $$$ in R&D to improve the service time at 1% of your busiest stores, when you can just build more stores. Matt Deres (talk)

Thanks Matt. That was a really good explanation. But what about the one guy who is constantly assembly burgers? Lotsofissues 19:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you'd have to look at a couple of things. What are you trying to improve? McD is going to be looking at things in (probably) this kind of order: max throughput per minute, average throughput per minute, and the cost factors for each of those. McD's beats the other burger joints in their ability to push through huge numbers of orders per minute when things get crazy; it's very important to their business model and they do it very, very well. Could a robot make things better? You're probably not going to cook the burger any faster, that's all timed down to the second as it is. You might get more throughput by expanding the cook top into the space the cook used to stand, but then you come to another pinch: how many steps does it take and how many robots will you need? There are quite a few steps when you break it all down from unpacking, to cooking, to adding each condiment, to wrapping, etc. You'd need a separate robot for pretty much every one of those steps (I only listed a couple off the top of my head), whereas when things are not hectic, the entire process can be done by one or two people, who have the ability to switch between jobs as needed. You've pretty much eaten up the space you'd hoped to gain and given yourself a huge overhead in setup and maintenance to boot. Matt Deres (talk) 19:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I asked for a Big Mac with no Big Mac sauce once and the guy looked at me like I had four heads. I don't think I would ever get what I want from a robot. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

It does not help answer the question much, really, but a fully-automated McDonald's-like restaurant is part of the plot of Harry Harrison's novel A Stainless Steel Rat is Born. It works well there (the characters explain how and why it works), but it also uses equipment that delivers the order by the time the customer finishes giving it, conveniently getting around the limitations of prep time and supply vs. demand. Morrand (talk) 03:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Modern day Macbeth

I need modern songs that would go with the themes of Macbeth. Thanks in advance. --124.254.77.148 (talk) 07:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

This question has already been answered above. See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Macbeth songs.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

FIRST AID

What is first aid? Why do we need first aid? What is the role of first aid? Conclusion on first aid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.241.80 (talk) 14:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Do your own homework. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

This is your conclusion on first aid. - Lambajan 15:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Pocket guide on first aid

Can anybody help me on this topic.............Prepare a pocket guide on first aid for your school. The first aid should contain aid that needs to be given to fractures,poisoning,cuts and burns, heat and cold wave and other threats that are prevalent in that area . The content ahared in the guide should be supported with adequate pictures so as to give a clear and elaborate understanding about the topic. Choose awareness campaign strategy for either senior citizens or illiterate people and prepare a brief note up................Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.241.80 (talk) 14:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

See my comment above. (Summary: Do your own homework.) — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Especially do your own projects and long term assignments. - Lambajan 15:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

But you can start off with our article on first aid, and most libraries have many books of first aid. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I think a portable propane blowtorch for cauterizing wounds. Some rope for binding. A bottle of hydrocloric acid and a clean rag to use as a gag. Don't forget the foreceps either. Halli B (talk) 21:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

A baseball bat for anesthetic, ketchup as blood transfusion substitute, a vise clamp for setting bones, fishhooks to hold an open wound closed. . . --S.dedalus (talk) 23:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Good answers, people! — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

How about a sharp knife to slit someone's throat in a hurry if they need bloodletting? --Tango (talk) 03:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sissies. Don't treat 'em; let natural selection do the work for you. --- OtherDave (talk) 11:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget: no first aid kit is complete without sterile fallopian tubes and a priapism splint. --Shaggorama (talk) 08:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Marc Madiot's nickname

This source says Marc Madiot is called "Le Tuareg". Does anyone know if this is true and what Tuareg means (except of the North-African nomads) and why he is called this way.

Rubietje88 (talk) 14:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC) (nl)

I cannot say whether or not it's true he has this nickname but it almost certainly refers to the ethnic group in one way or another. Either he is of some North African descent or he fits somehow into a French stereotype of the Tuareg. I'm unfamiliar with what the French stereotypes of the Tuareg are, but 'nomadic' seems a fair guess, particularly for a cyclist. - Lambajan 15:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Oké, thank you very much. I will ask this at the French wikipedia too, maybe they do know more.

Greetings from the Netherlands, Rubietje88 (talk) 12:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

post-secondary education

Alright, I would just like to ask you all a small question about this.

If one is a junior in high school, having been so for only a few weeks... And they have been a mostly A student (a few B's) through this time... And they have taken all enriched classes, and are now in the IB (International Baccalaureate) enriched program... And they were in two clubs freshman and sophomore year... And are now in three or four clubs... And have never had a job... And will clock over 150 hours of community service for IB by graduation... But have only done 10 so far... And have never taken an in-college class during high school... And took the PSAT (Practice SAT) and achieved a very high score... And have not applied for any scholarships or written any college applications so far...

What should they do to ensure that they can get into a GOOD college (including possibly out of state) without having to pay loads of money or applying for loads of student loans?

{This is assuming they will take both the SAT and the ACT and achieve very high scores} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.70.25 (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, first, it's important to know what you intend to do your degree in (it may still be a little premature to say). But if you continue to do well, the question will be what scholarships you can obtain. The most expensive places in the USA have the possibility to get close to 100% scholarships for those who are both needy and well-qualified. So take as many 'AP' classes as you can - get college credits from your school (if you can) - and get as much advice about scholarships as you can - and perhaps you can go anywhere you want. My son (also pretty smart) graduated from high school a year early with quite a few college credits already under his belt. Because he graduated early, the college demanded that he do their "bridge program" over the summer vacation - for which they gave him a 100% scholarship, free accomodation and $80 per week stipend. That earned him more college credits. Now he's about to "test out" of some of the easier courses he's taking - which means he's likely to get his B.Sc in two years. Finishing more quickly makes things a LOT cheaper. So his plan is to do that at his (in-state) college - then apply to somewhere like MIT to do a masters degree in the hope that his rapid progress will encourage them to give him a large scholarship. But your circumstances will no doubt be different. Anyway - getting BIG scholarships is the way to do things - then you don't have to go somewhere less prestigious than you deserve. You can pick up all sorts of WEIRD scholarships - especially if you are in any kind of minority or have any kind of special connections. It's amazing how many really specialised little endowments there are out there who'll pay one or two thousand dollars per year for someone with just the right background taking some very particular degree. Pick up enough little things like that and you'll find even the most expensive places quite accessible. Some schools have councillors who can help you to find those kinds of things...but typically, they focus on that during your final year in high-school. So my advice is to aim high - but expect low. That way you won't be disappointed - but you also won't short-change yourself....and there are always student loans. :-( SteveBaker (talk) 17:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

State counties maps showing location in states

Hello. I'm working on tracing my aunt's grandfather in terms of (who was Swedish and came to Texas and died there as well in the nineteenth century) places lived and worked, etc., but when I try to trace where he was living in the nineteenth century to see where in the state of Texas that county is located to see his path from where his wife lived, where they married and then where their two children were born and then where he died in 1899, well there is nothing showing me two of the counties within the state of Texas to see how far apart the counties are from one another. I'm wondering if this will be posted and how long before it may be done? I'm looking for both the counties of Gonzales, Texas and then Wharton. I see the other two counties where they had their first son and where they were married next, but not for the birth of their second son is or where he died and where there was a large Swedish community. Can you show counties in states for people like myself who need to look at maps to trace their genealogical roots in different states to see if in their census research, etc., a county is viable or not for a person who has a common name (like "Joe Smith") to see if there are a lot of Joe Smiths living in a given area or state, which may be their correct ancestor or not? Anyway, if this is possible in Wikipedia, this would be very helpful for your resources. Thank you! Regor4 (talk) 16:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Our articles Gonzales County, Texas and Wharton County, Texas both have maps shewing their location within the state of Texas. Does this help? DuncanHill (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Google maps can do that. Choose the "Get Directions" button - type "Gonzales County Texas" into one box and "Wharton County Texas" into the other and it'll bring up a handy zoomable map. If you select "By Walking" instead of "By Car", it'll even tell you that to get from the middle of one county to the middle of the other would take 32 hours (assuming you didn't stop to eat or sleep!)...98 miles...perhaps a four day walk, maybe three days in a horse and buggy, two days if you had a fast horse and were in a hurry! Quite do-able by the standards of the day. I wouldn't want to do it in the summer (100 degree heat - and high humidity that close to the coast) - but during the winter, it would be quite a pleasant hike. SteveBaker (talk) 17:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

If I understand right, you are interested in historical county maps? Genealogical work can be frustrated by the way counties have changed over time. There are some nice maps that show the evolution of counties. This site has links to states, try the Texas page, and then click the first link "County Formation Maps" and you should get this page, which shows the evolution of Texas counties over time. You can play it as an animation or just select a year from below the map. I'm not quite sure this is what you are looking for, but I've found it useful. If nothing else, when doing genealogical research one should remember that just because some old record says Such-and-such County, it does not necessarily correspond to the location and size of that county today. Pfly (talk) 05:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

There is a type of map called a Plat Map that would be VERY HELPFUL to you, if you can somehow obtain a copy of it for the counties you are researching. Plat Maps are very detailed, and show precisely who owns what property in a particular area. Typically, in the United States, plat maps are updated on a regular basis (sometimes as often as every year) for every county in every state in the country. Because of the relatively large scale of these maps (which is necessary in order to show the detailed information that they contain), each county's plat map usually takes an entire spiral bound book to cover its entire area. Plat maps are kept by many different groups, including larger real estate offices, engineering and legal firms, government agencies, utility companies, and libraries. However, in order to find older, outdated copies of plat maps, you would probably have to locate archival libraries that would be concerned with the counties you are interested in. Such archives would be probably located in local public libraries, historical societies, or academic research libraries. If you were able to find an archives that has older copies of the plat books of the counties you are researching in its collection, you could then possibly make arrangements with them (or with a local researcher-for-hire) to make photocopies of the pages that would contain the information you seek. These photocopies could then be faxed, mailed, or possibly scanned and sent electronically to you, and you could then look at these plat maps for names and locations. Keep in mind that plat maps only show who owns land - if someone was renting a property, the plat map would not provide that information. Saukkomies 08:33, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Transits and occultations in astrology

In astrology, are transits and occultations considered more significant than ordinary conjunctions? NeonMerlin 17:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

So you're the guy with the fancy robe who's job it is to predict the future based on a bunch of tiny white dots moving around on a big hemisphere full of little white dots. What set of "rules" are you going to draw up about what this all means? Well - the general public have already put together names for collections of the brighter stars - so this group of six stars is a fish - that bunch over there is a hunter - that lot is a bear (well, yes, I know it's just three stars in a triangle...but it's a BEAR - OK?). Well, I guess when this planet (which means "wandering star") moves out of the fish and into the hunter (that's a "transit") - maybe it's time to pull the old boat out of the water and head inland with your bow and arrow - but do it quick because it'll soon be heading into the bear and you don't want to be hanging out in the woods when THAT happens. I mean - that's the kind of thing you're going to have to come up with if you want to convince the other guys to feed and clothe you when you basically sit around all day doing nothing while they do all the actual work. But pretty soon you run out of those simple things - so you start making up more complicated rules: If the king was born when mars was overhead then maybe where mars is now matters more to him than where venus is...you start getting more complicated so that other people can't do what you do. But sooner or later - you're getting old and the other guys are getting nervous about when you die - you have to take on an apprentice and teach him the rules. He's alway whining on about "WHY?" - so you slap him around the head and say "Because the ancestors told me so in a vision"...it's a lot easier than retracing the complicated (and utterly arbitary) logic you've built up over a lifetime.

Continue this nonsense for a hundred generations and you get an utterly meaningless set of gibberish rules that don't even relate to where the planets ACTUALLY are (that's too complicated to figure out) - but only to where their funky arithmetic places them. You get sets of formalized predictions that have survived by a process of memetic evolution. Predictions that are too specific ("You will slip on a banana peel tomorrow at 3:14pm") tended to get the court Astrologer hung upside-down in chains in the dungeon. Predictions that are vague enough ("Tomorrow is a good day for making big decisions") survived the test of time. Hence we have a set of entirely arbitary rules - based around fictional locations for the planets - that produce results that are vague enough to survive the test of time - but just specific enough so that they seem like predictions.

SteveBaker (talk) 17:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

To answer the actual question, yes, transits and occultations are considered by astrologers to strengthen the conjunction in question.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 20:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Steve, that was a really inappropriate post on a number of counts. The question wasn't about the scientific view of the validity of astrology, which you would have been well qualified to answer. It was a technical question about transits and occultations, terms that are used within astrology, which you clearly count yourself not in any way associated with, so on this occasion you are not the expert. The astrological transit is not what you guessed it must mean from your knowledge of astronomical transits. Your post also breaches incivility, good faith, and possibly some other rules. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree - I did in fact read astrological transit in advance of writing my piece. I wonder whether you have? An astrological transit is related to how a planet moves from one section of the astrological calendar to the next - quite unlike an astronomical transit which is when one object moves across the disk of another (such as a solar eclipse). In fact, I specifically described the astrological transit of a planet from one constellation to another (from the fish into the hunter) as a concrete example of what an astrological transit is - AND how it has come to be seen as significant to astrologers. I'll admit to attempting a light-hearted answer - but the question is merely one of opinion. Some ancient guy made that arbitary decision - and it's been passed down through generations of astrologers who no longer have any clue why. That's the plain, simple, objective TRUTH. Truth matters - bullshit is still bullshit. SteveBaker (talk) 03:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Whether the question was "merely one of opinion" or not, you didn't answer it. That is also the truth. You do not have to believe in astrology to agree that there is an answer to the question of what astrologers consider more or less significant, which was what the question asked. --Trovatore (talk) 03:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as a Libra, I'd say that Steve's answer was no less mis-directed than many other good faith answers which mis-target the precise question. Steve is in fact pointing out that the significance is insignificant due to the error-prone nature of the astrological interpretation. The fact that his answer came first does not make it definitive - it is nonetheless correct. Franamax (talk) 03:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Correct perhaps; responsive no. A responsive answer would have included the information that astrologers do consider such events more significant (if that's true; I really don't know), or that they don't, in the other case, or perhaps that there is not a consensus among astrologers on the issue. --Trovatore (talk) 03:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

So let us consider your answer [8] to the question: "Is it just me, or is newsmaker Sarah Palin kind of hot?" to which you answered with something about "The creation of the American Republic..." with no significant information on Sarah Palins perceived hotness. That was truly a completely inadequate answer and I regret that I failed to berate you for it at the time! (In other words - lighten up for chrissakes!) SteveBaker (talk) 06:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, that was in response to an intervening post, not to the original question. But in any case I wasn't "berating" you; as I said, I enjoyed your post. I just had to agree with Jack that it wasn't really responsive (and what I didn't say, which was that it was a bit heavy on that "evangelist for naturalism" thing that you sometimes do). --Trovatore (talk) 06:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The post was well done and I enjoyed reading it, so I can see how Steve would have wanted to post it having thought of it. But it's certainly true that it wasn't an answer to the question. Now, I don't believe in astrology either, which is hardly surprising given that I'm a Gemini. --Trovatore (talk) 23:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha! The irony! — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, aren't the three stars in a triangle a bull? The stars in the shape of a saucepan and those in the shape of a tiny saucepan are bears. --Tango (talk) 03:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Two stars make a dog! (I think?) Franamax (talk) 03:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a big part of the problem - all sorts of attributes of the constellations are based on a mere handful of stars - that could, frankly, be anything - that wouldn't look like that if you scooched over a few parsecs to your left. Indeed "The Big Dipper" for Americans - is "Ursa Major" or "The Great Bear" for we Brits. In other cultures, other objects, animals and people are "seen" in the stars. Just look through our articles on the astrological constellations and you can see that the "attributes" are closely aligned with whatever random picture someone saw in the stars a few thousand years ago. Libra - the scales - has a "balanced" personality. Taurus - the bull - implies stubbornness and hard work (just what you'd expect from an agrarian society who plough their fields with oxen). Pick a different culture and a whole different set of pictures are there - with a whole different set of attributes. Heck - take a look at Cancer (astrology) - it says that "Astrologers are in broad agreement that..." "...Cancers as usually having brown hair, a well-defined face, a tan complexion, a prominent forehead, penetrating eyes of green or blue". Hmmm - tell that to the millions of Africans with almost exclusively black hair and brown eyes no matter when during the year they happen to have been born! Of the roughly half billion people living on Earth who were born under this star sign - would you like to hesitate a guess as to the percentage that have penetrating blue or green eyes? I'd be surprised if it was more than 5%. The point being - if astrologers are going around saying that kind of easily disprovable nonsense - then it's anyone's guess what random rubbish any given one of them might ramble on about the significance or otherwise of transits and occultations. SteveBaker (talk) 05:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Just be glad the question was asked here and not on the science desk. You're not going to get anywhere trying to change people's minds - anyone willing and able to consider the matter rationally won't believe in it in the first place, and those that aren't will never listen to you. --Tango (talk) 05:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

So. The question was clearly intended to be interpreted as: "In astrology, are transits and occultations considered by astrologers to be more significant than ordinary conjunctions?". A precis of your responses, Steve, might be: "It's irrelevant what they think because it's all bullshit anyway". This is the bit I have a problem with. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, but whether that opinion is relevant or useful to our dear questioner is another matter entirely. I take the view that we're here to answer specific questions. If you happen to know something about the question ** in the context in which it's been framed **, by all means speak up. If not, you're not doing anyone a service by debunking the entire general subject that the question is a tiny part of. If someone asked whether it's better to buy a small fuel-efficient car or a larger less efficient one that might however be more suitable for a family with 3 children, the range of appropriate responses would not include a polemic about how all cars are instruments of the devil, and ranting on about the military-industrial complex, and raving on about how GWB's only interest in Iraq is about the oil supplies and so on ad nauseam. All they want to know is some pros and cons about buying a small car or a larger car. The whole subject of the worldwide automobile industry and its links with governments and global oil cartels was not remotely the question they were asking. The analogy here is that this question was not remotely about the validity or otherwise of astrology, but something much more focussed and specific. You've given very clear and well reasoned answers - but to the wrong question. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Not only that, he's also made an astronomical error. The Big Dipper is not the North American name for Ursa Major or the Great Bear; it's the North American name for the Plough, an asterism within Ursa Major (forming the bear's tail and hindquarters -- or a plough, or a dipper, depending on how you look at it). --Anonymous, 10:04 UTC, September 8, 2008.

Returning question - Re.: EARTHQUAKE!

The question was this: Are you guys OK? I have heard on the news that you got hit by a earthquake. Someone removed it as a "non-question".

The question mark is, or was there. The

?

was in the original question. I was trying to find out if you guys made it after you guys experienced your first earthquake.65.163.117.163 (talk) 18:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I haven't experienced an earthquake for several years now. I'm coping with it. Algebraist 19:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Same here - no earthquake. As explained before - this is not a question for a reference desk to answer. We're here to look up things in Wikipedia or books or articles or Google or whatever. It's not a forum for chatting about earthquake experiences. Just sticking a question mark in there doesn't change that fact. SteveBaker (talk) 19:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Same here, no earthquake in Birmingham UK. Who and where exactly do you think "you guys" are?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 20:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia moved to San Francisco, and about two days ago, had a earthquake there. 65.163.117.163 (talk) 20:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

But we aren't affiliated with the Wikimedia Foundation any more than you are. They just run the web site. I gather from the news reports that no one was hurt. -- BenRG (talk) 22:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

We had an earthquake last week? Huh. Next you'll be telling me a pigeon pooped somewhere in Venice. —Tamfang (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

No post on the reference desk should be removed without mentioning it on the talk page (I’m tempted to say “ever”). For whoever reverted the first post, please leave a note next time. It’s important to maintain transparency, especially when reverting posts by other editors. Thanks, --S.dedalus (talk) 23:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

So I actually am in the Bay Area, and did feel the little quake. I'm fine. Thanks for asking. (Actually, the thanks are insincere; it was not an appropriate refdesk question, and IMO simply removing it was probably the appropriate course of action.) --Trovatore (talk) 03:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:BITE. Let's be nice. --Nricardo (talk) 10:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this guy (65.*) is not a newcomer by any means, he's a regular poster on here. But I still agree that we should be nice to him. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, there was some major shaking that caused structural damage to all our articles beginning with "L", thus causing a lot of lipstick to end up smeared on many faces.

But, that's not as bad as the quke that resulted in the tsunami of 2004, when the letter "G" articles lost all structural integrity and spilled everywhere, especially our "C" articles nearby. Do you know how hard it is to get grape juice out of carpet?

I invite anyone to use that joke next time someone asks about a natural disaster ine one small part of the world affecting people posting from all over.Somebody or his brother (talk) 12:20, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Quite a website

Come on people, donate to Wikipedia. This place is GREAT!!!!!!!! 65.163.117.163 (talk) 18:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

1. This is not the place to beg for money.
2. It's people who READ Wikipedia (or who ASK questions on the Ref Desks) who should be paying for it - those of us who are WRITING it (or ANSWERING questions) should be getting paid!
3. Most people here are already contributors - EVERYONE here is aware that Wikipedia needs money - hence this is a bad place to ask.
4. Did I mention this is not the place to beg for money?

SteveBaker (talk) 19:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

But thanks for saying we're great, the appreciation is appreciated! --Tango (talk) 20:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Your best way to show your appreciation is to help build the encyclopedia with us. Come to the dark side: we have cookies. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^{Talk to me} _{The mess I've made} 21:31, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that editors should be paid? If so, how much? By the hour or by the edit? Or by the type of edit? Or by the quality of the edit? Would we pay vandals too? Halli B (talk) 21:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Give me $100 and I'll make an executive decision on those questions. - Lambajan 02:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

We should be paid at a rate to be determined by the total monetary contributions made by the people who read words we wrote - scaled in proportion to the number of those words that survive in the articles they read - minus some percentage of the "earnings" of the words we delete. Hence, vandals would get very little since their words are rapidly reverted. People who write articles that nobody will read (eg on non-notable subjects) would earn very little - and people who engage in huge content wars would find that a very small proportion of their words are ever read - even if the articles they write are most important. People who contribute money would encourage authors who write on the kinds of subject they are interested in more than people who 'mooch' by reading without paying - so there is some incentive to contribute. Messing up a well-read article (such as a featured article that's been extensively read because it's been on the front page) would be something you'd only do if you had the courage of your convictions! The cash value of getting an article to "featured" status would be very well worth the effort!

Nah - I'm kidding. Of course we shouldn't be paid - Wikipedia is broke as it is! SteveBaker (talk) 03:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the foundation is doing pretty well financially - they're hiring lots of new staff which is always a good sign. Of course, that's not a reason for paying contributors, it's a reason for spending the money on useful things - people contribute without getting paid, so why pay them? --Tango (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

September 8

landscape page - directional face?

In a book or document, which is the correct direction for a landscape oriented page to face? Should it face to the right or to the left, please?75.101.23.231 (talk) 01:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It should face with the top of the landscape page at the gutter, and the bottom at the outer edge of the book, either left or right. — Michael J 02:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If facing pages both have sideways pictures or tables, they ought to be the same way, so that the lower-numbered page appears above the higher-numbered page. —Tamfang (talk) 17:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I want to be president of Iceland

Icelandic presidential election, 2008 Looks easy.

But seriously, are most elected officials in Iceland paid? Cause judging by the listlessness of presidential elections you can just pluck some elected sinecure.

Lotsofissues 02:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

President of Iceland is almost certainly a full time job, so it is almost certainly paid. I don't know the details, but I would imagine the reason no-one stood is because the incumbent is so popular they knew they wouldn't win, so becoming president wouldn't be as easy as it looks (for anyone else)! --Tango (talk) 02:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

[9] gives the salary as ISK 1,807,000, which is EUR 14,388.44, GBP 11,557.32 or USD 20,726.88, which seems a surprisingly low salary for a president (that article has other MPs and civil servants earning less, so it's not just that President is a purely ceremonial role). Either that article is wrong or there are significant bonuses, allowances and perks as well that aren't included. --Tango (talk) 02:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I've worked as an election judge in Maryland, and I can tell you listlessness is not limited to Iceland. While I'm sure it's a terrific place, and while I've spent at least four hours in its charming airport, Iceland has a population roughly half that of Baltimore. Also, the president of Iceland does have a mainly ceremonial position, though he or she serves as the Grand Master of the Order of the Falcon. --- OtherDave (talk) 11:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

So the Grand Mastership isn't ceremonial? —Tamfang (talk) 21:55, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't know about Iceland, but in the US, the perks, bonuses, and such include transportation, housing, and food, and in order to get elected, you need to already have a pretty decent wardrobe. Once you subtract those, $21,000 a year is plenty to live on. --Carnildo (talk) 00:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but MPs don't get anywhere near the same perks as a president, they would expect a decent salary, but the article I link to says they make less than the president. (Is it possible those figures are monthly, not annual, salaries? Multiply everything by 12 and it's far more realistic...) --Tango (talk) 10:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps $20,000 is considered a decent wage in Iceland? By the way, I would take "Grand Master of the Order of the Falcon" as a title any day, for $20,000 a year!!! Fucking cool! — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 10:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems like a fairly decent wage - especially because the last thing you would want to do would be to have a president who was in it for the money, rather than for the good of the country. Bradley10 (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I know Olafur -- everyone's on a first-name basis in Iceland -- a few years back was restoring an old Packard FDR gave the country. (Here's a picture of it.) I don't know how many other heads of state get the time to restore a classic car. But then again, I don't know how many other heads of state would have to do their own auto repair. I wonder if he's listed in the phone book like a lot of mayors in the U.S.? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

She may not have time any more, what with feeding the corgies and all that, but Queen Elizabeth used to fix trucks and whatnot. (I hadn't noticed before how young she was at the time -- she turned 18 in April, 1944.) --- OtherDave (talk) 16:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Guitar/Violin hybrid?

What is that guitar/violin-hybrid-like instrument at 1:27-1:34 in this video? --antilived^{T | C | G} 04:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

A Nyckelharpa --S.dedalus (talk) 05:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Dang. Too slow. The keyed version is a hurdy-gurdy. Steewi (talk) 06:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow those are some strange instruments... So really it's a keyboard fitted onto a violin and maybe use a wheel to strike the strings? I originally thought they used a cello for that part. --antilived^{T | C | G} 06:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The nyckelharpa is bowed with a violin (viola?) bow, and that is the one in the video. The hurdy-gurdy doesn't feature in that clip, but that is the one that is played by the rotating wheel. Both use the keyed board to depress the strings. This youtube vid shows a hurdy gurdy being played. Steewi (talk) 03:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Advance Corporate Etiquite

what is Advance Corporate Etiquette? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.98.115.255 (talk) 07:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is a strict definition of advanced corporate etiquette, but it will be the advanced parts of the etiquette used in business situations, see Etiquette#Western business etiquette for some information on that. --Tango (talk) 07:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

education in kenya

1. why has educaton system in kenya failed to promote unity?

2.what are the challenges of free education in kenya? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.49.92.80 (talk) 10:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Do your own homework. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 10:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Was there really any need for the personal insult in the edit summary? But yes, please do your own homework, however you may find Education in Kenya useful TheGreatZorko (talk) 10:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I spent a year in secondary education in Kenya - if you have any specific questions, post 'em here and I'll be happy to answer them. SteveBaker (talk) 17:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

What is an impairment charge?

From the Daily Telegraph:

The deteriorating property market means the society will report an £11.5m impairment charge in the current year on a single secured commercial mortgage loan and an unaudited pre-tax loss of £10.5m.

What is an impairment charge and should Wikipedia have a page on it? -- Q Chris (talk) 11:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

This was third on the list when I googled "impairment charge." --- 11:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe it is the UK term for a writedown, which you do when you have an impaired asset. Franamax (talk) 15:56, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

After I sufficiently tortured Write-off to confess the truth, I have made the OP's red-link turn blue. (Tho' "impairment charge" might also refer to comments on my wiki-editing later in the day than it is now, 'tis true :) I'd welcome any review - where are the accounting-pedians when you need them? Franamax (talk) 22:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Personal advice

Chaela89 (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)I dont really know how to use this.But me and my fiance moved down to mississippi at the end of july. my mom had to come get me and bring me back to iowa because my dogs couldnt take the heat. We had argued alot in the past and he was being so mean because i was leaving. Well the day i left he cried and begged me not to go. After i left,, on the phone he was so mean and never wanted to talk to me.at the end of august i went to visit him and he was mean but he made love to me and we cuddled and it was good, I felt love from him.but i also couldnt help but feel used.my heart says hes loyal but my head is being stupid making me think hes using me and making him mad at me. when i got back he was mean again. I yelled at him and told him that i had enough of this being mean crap and iw ould leave him if it didnt stop. Well he stopped and started telling me he loved me again. and now Its almost a month till i can be with him forever and i dont know if its worth it, we have two dogs that are our children and his dog is just waisting away for him and it breaks my heart. but is my fiances anger permanent or will is go away when im with him. I know i love him but somtimes i wonder if its truly worth it, please some advice.

Chaela89Chaela89 (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Generally speaking, you would do well not to take life-critical advice from strangers on the internet. Do you have trusted family or friends you can consult with instead? — Lomn 15:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. But nothing in your description suggests that he'll exhibit anything but the current pattern of behaviour. You need to decide if that's what you want. Many many people have married in haste and regretted it in leisure. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me second the advice to ask your trusted friends for advice- they know you, they know him, and they are more likely to be able to judge what your wisest action would be. You probably already know which friends you can count on to tell you what you need to know, not just what you want to hear. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

im 19 and hes 21 but i know i love him and need him. I cry when i think of leaving him although i think he would be better of without me complicating his life with my doubts and frustrations. and no i cant trust family and friends, they dont know that side of me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chaela89 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I think he is being mean because he misses you so much and wants to be with you all the time. forget about the dogs, go back to him and you will both be happy forever. But maybe I am just a romantic male fool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe he's just always been a prick and you've been so consumed by love (or what you believe to be love) that you really made excuses for his actions in your mind. I'm sorry if I sound blunt, but you said yourself you guys have been arguing a lot. And if it was enough to make you move away and transplant your entire life, it must have been pretty significant. Can I ask how old you are? --Endlessdan and his problem 17:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Relationships take work. Go back to Mississippi - buy an airconditioner for the dog-house. SteveBaker (talk) 17:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I would advise caution like Tagishsimon and Endlessdan said, but even more than that I would agree with Lomn and FisherQueen. We're an outside perspective, but we're so far outside we don't have nearly enough to go on. There must be someone you can talk to, even if it's a professional or you have to dig deep and get an old acquaintance from high school who knows the two of you. - Lambajan 19:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with everything LambaJan says. There are two sides to every story and as complete strangers, we're in no position to give you the best advice. Ask a friend or family member. --Endlessdan and his problem 20:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

While I don't know the whole story, I do want to add a few things that you need to ask yourself.

1. Is this love or lust you feel. It may only be lust, but it may be love. It's easy for the heart to be fooled; feelings change. That's why you need to be careful, and not follow your heart into something too hastily.

2. Love is not just about getting, it's about giving. It's great if you both give, but what is he willing to give? How did you two even meet? Iowa and Mississippi - I question the advice of those who think a person can know both of you, because I think it's possible you don't have mutual friends.

3. Would you still love him if you were 89 and 91? If he was elderly and all wrinkled? (A good test for love versus lust)

4. What do you two have in common? Anything beside sthe fact you like each other's looks? Yes, opposites can attract, but when they do, there is committment on each part fo grow closer to each toer so they are not as opposite anymore. In other words, x loves the great outdoors, y would rather stay at home and watch TV. Y might do some outdorosy stuff like go on long walks with X, or learn to ride a horse, but X will give up that dream of backpacking through the Rocky Mountains every year. Or, maybe Y will do it just once to surprise X for an anniversary, but not otherwise. X will watch TV with Y, but only the Discovery Channel. See what I mean by giving, and compromise? Don't give if he's not willing to give.

That last is why the others are saying they can't give advice; they dont' know his side of the story. Maybe he has given some stuff for you, maybe he hasn't. He can have his interests, even obsessions (see some sports fans, and so can you. But, it's the things you share that are important. You need to factor in what his personality is like, and the fact that he is probably not going to change, unless oemthing dramatic happens, as someone else said. 209.244.187.155 (talk) 20:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Not that this pedia is a personal advice forum ^{(hint hint)}, but there's always The Jerry Springer Show and Dr. Phil for hints and tips. Julia Rossi (talk) 12:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The heading is "Personal advice" but the text requests validation 98.169.163.20 (talk) 00:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Sunburn

I hope you had a big farm in the sunburn! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.141.241 (talk) 20:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I had a dream with this quote. What does it mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.213.141.241 (talk) 20:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Probably nothing. - Lambajan 20:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Colorless green ideas sleep furiously ? SteveBaker (talk) 01:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Nice one Steve - Noam Chomsky! On the other hand buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo. Franamax (talk) 15:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm - you messed up the capitalisation of that sentence...see this: ====>

SteveBaker (talk) 17:26, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana. Saintrain (talk) 21:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

...and Green flies like a lettuce. SteveBaker (talk) 17:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Seen painted on the outside of a college building: "Do not if the when go to, but only as it very since." Edison (talk) 16:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

What's the difference between a chicken? The answer is as enigmatic as the question: "One of its legs is both the same". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, if we're starting on the corny jokes, then I must ask: "What's green, sits in a cage and sings?"

→ A red herring.

(Not that I'm passing judgement on the quality of the answers here, of course.) Gwinva (talk) 21:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I feel more like I do now than I did before I read this thread. Edison (talk) 04:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Once I dreamt that my domestic partner told me I stank of egg rinds. I woke up and asked whether "egg rinds" meant anything to her; she said no. Then I woke from that dream and asked her whether "egg rinds" meant anything ... Then finally I woke into the level of reality in which I'm writing this, and she still won't tell me what "egg rinds" are. —Tamfang (talk) 22:41, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Backwards knee in humans

Hi. Are there any documented cases of humans with backwards knees, either congenital or as a result of abuse? I ask because I have heard rumours of young children kidnapped for the purpose of begging by various street gangs whose knees had been turned backwards in order to prevent them from running/escaping. What I mean by backwards is that they were facing opposite of the way normal human knees do, whereas everything else, such as the direction of the foot, remains the same. I have very early memories about two cases like these which I have seen on the street: A man with both knees turned backward (resulting in him walking on all fours; a rather gruesome sight), and a boy with just one of the knees turned backward, thus allowing him to stand upright, but also allowing him to flex his knees with a large rhomboid space in-between. I am only concerned that these are false memories or very vivid dreams, which is why I am looking for written or photographic evidence of such things being possible. Thanks in advance for any kind of info you may have.

P.S.: On an unrelated basis, how much of the lower body can be removed from a human being without endangering his life? Up to his thighs, hips or even abdomen (theoretically with removal or considerable replacing of his internal organs)? sfaefaol 20:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

There is a rare medical condition, congenital genu recurvatum, that can cause this; there is a photo of a young woman with the condition at this web site. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your postscript, a hemicorporectomy is amputation at the waist. Needless to say, it's extremely rare and is quite complicated in terms of health effects, and rehabilitation afterwards, not to mention psychological effects. Gwinva (talk) 22:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

How does one urinate and defecate after a hemicorporectomy? Acceptable (talk) 00:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

This section of the article describes the answer to that problem. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Adding pictures

Hi, I was wondering how to add pictures on wikipedia. On the Guildford Heat Nationals U'14's there is a image but it is copyright. How do I add that image to it?

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Listen 2 (talk • contribs) 20:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Check out Help:Images and other uploaded files. Feel free to ask any questions you still have after reading it. --Tango (talk) 21:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

First of all, Wikipedia related questions should be directed to Wikipedia:Help desk. Second of all, you make an image by inserting the code [[Image:UPLOADEDIMAGENAME|thumb|CAPTION]]. The thumb parameter is optional, as specified in WP:IMAGE. Pie is good ^{(Apple is the best)} 21:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If the image you want to upload is copyrighted, then it's probably unsuitable for Wikipedia (see Wikipedia:Non-free content). If you are unsure about its use, then ask at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions‎, where there are many helpful people who know about such things. Gwinva (talk) 22:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Cold Air "Funnel"

While I was on the Weather Channel website, tracking Ike, I went to the "Servere Weather alert" section, so I clicked on it, clicked on the regional area, clicked on Texas (where Ike might land at), and found two counties in Texas under some kind of Special Alert. So I clicked in these two counties, and found out that one of the two counties had a warning for cold air funnels.

What is a "Cold Air Funnel"? Is it some kind of tornado? 65.163.117.163 (talk) 21:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

If you like, I'll show you what I've found. 65.163.117.163 (talk) 21:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Before tornadoes reach the ground they are (cold) funnel clouds. Presumably that alert means that funnel clouds have been spotted and that therefore tornadoes are very likely. Plasticup ^T/C 21:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Seen what you're referring to. That pix is cool and unusual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.163.117.163 (talk) 21:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Forgot sig. Getting old —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.163.117.163 (talk) 21:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Got caught in a Edit conflict. WHAT causes these? 65.163.117.163 (talk) 21:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

(This should be moved to the science desk) Franamax (talk) 21:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried Funnel cloud#Cold-air funnel clouds?

Sure did. Cool pix. 65.163.117.163 (talk) 21:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

One other thing: Are these, tornadoes responsible for strange "fish falls" (when it rains fish), frogs falling out of the sky, that sort of thing? 65.163.117.163 (talk) 22:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

See Raining animals. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:45, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

And Fortean phenomena. Julia Rossi (talk) 12:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

September 9

Chinese Workers

What are some popular jobs people take up in China? 220.233.83.26 (talk) 06:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Try here Economy of the_People's Republic of China#Demographics and Agriculture in the People's Republic of China#Workforce too. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I've changed your external links to internal links.--antilived^{T | C | G} 00:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Were you looking for jobs people from outside China take there, like teaching English? Edison (talk) 16:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Wii games sales percentages

Why do Wii games have a higher PAL region sales percentage than N64/Gamecube games? February 15, 2009 (talk) 07:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Probably because there have been more Wiis sold? I can't find an exact figure, but outside of Americas and Japan, the console has apparently sold over 10 million units. I think it's safe to assume that a very big chunk of those were sold in Europe. For the GameCube, the comparable figure was a little under five million, and for the Nintendo 64, a little under seven million. And that's throughout those devices' entire lifespan; the Wii still has years to go until it's replaced.

But there are also at least two other factors at play here: first of all, at least in the case of GameCube, the European support for the console was fairly sparse. A lot of games that were released in Japan or the United States were published in Europe much later, or not at all. The GameCube was a pretty nifty console, and it was certainly cheap, but the selection of games available was pretty sparse, which didn't encourage people to buy the console, no matter how cheap it was.

Also, historically, Europe hasn't been console-gamin' country. Computer gaming has traditionally been more popular in Europe than in the US (or Japan). This has led to things like the demoscene emerging in Europe. Things have certainly evened out in recent years, though; once the PS2 and the Xbox (and especially the current generation of consoles) arrived, the focus started to shift... so there's simply a lot more interest in console gaming in general today than there was in the days of the N64 and the GameCube. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't the GameCube part of the PS2 and Xbox generation though? Was it part of the change with the PS2 and Xbox? Nil Einne (talk) 11:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

how many people have been killed by a clown?

i know there are killer clowns about roaming and killing children and maybe adults,

what is the total clown death toll?? Bradley10 (talk) 13:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

How do you know this? What is your reliable source. What, come to that, is your definition of clown? If it extends to muppets with guns & knives, then I'd be inclined to agree with you. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

If you count certain national leaders as "clowns" then its pretty high. ;-) -- Q Chris (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I have just found [this] also which, although it doesn't entirely answer my question, is interesting to the question... is JWG counted in this list? Bradley10 (talk) 13:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Killer Klowns from Outer Space is the only wikipedia information I could find on this trolltopic. Faithfully, Deltopia (talk) 14:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Heh. I just bought that DVD.  :) Corvus cornix_talk 20:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

John Wayne Gacy was both a clown and killer, so at least 33. --Sean 15:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

As disturbing as this man was, I don't believe that there was any connection between his clowning activities and his choice of victims (who while young were all mid-teens to early twenties) Rmhermen (talk) 15:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

"To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kinda scary. I've wondered where this started, and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus and a clown killed my dad." — Jack Handey — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 15:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Modern clown/killer or clown/demon linkage comes from Stephen King's work in 1990, but the notion of the evilness of clowns dates back at least to silent movie horror star Lon Chaney, Sr., who supposedly said "There is nothing laughable about a clown in the moonlight." BBC. There are lots of news articles discussing the horror of a clown face for children. [10]. One could note numerous instances of clowns, including rodeo clowns, killing people [11], but to be accurate such statistics would need to be collected by law enforcement authorities. Even then they might be exaggerated to excite (like for domestic terrorism) or diminish (like justifying killings by police officers) the public's fear of clowns . Edison (talk) 16:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Tool

What can be the use of this tool: [12] [13] (No parts of it are movable - it is a rigid body.) (And if you don't know, where I could ask such question?) 83.23.205.167 (talk) 13:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Some sort of combined pruning knife/saw? --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Tagishsimon has it right. It does have a moving part, the shears are used to clip off shoots and branches, the saw is used for plant bits that are too big to clip. Diagnosis: Garden tool (pic should be in the article if it's free). Franamax (talk) 14:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Fish scaler? Saintrain (talk) 14:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I'm going for combined knife/saw, not secateurs (i.e. no moving part supposition) --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but look at the second picture. On the second picture, to the right, are fingertips, giving a clue to the size of the thing. Also, it's not a sawblade, it's a serrated scoop. Kitchen implement of some sort. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Clearly not a saw. Not much like any fish-scaler I've seen in a quick trawl of the net. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Groan - Terrible-pun-of-the-week-award for Tagishsimon please! SteveBaker (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

How about a combined razor(the sharp part) and moustache holder/straightener?(the serrated bit) Lemon martini (talk) 11:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a type of can opener,I've used a very similar type.You punch a hole by the rim with the point,put the blade in sideways and work it round with a sort of sawing action.It's hard work compared with the butterfly handled rotary type but has no moving parts to wear out.The point also make it useful for punching holes in things,such as drink cans pre ringpulls,hotclaws 01:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Fitness

“I would like to know the excersizes & workouts necessary to increase height from 3-4 inches. I necessary, also cite some of the nutritional products for same available in India.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vipinn (talk • contribs) 16:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Exercise and workouts can reduce fat, build muscle, strengthen your heart, improve oxygen uptake and generally make you fitter - but they cannot make your bones bigger - which is the only thing that could make you taller. So no amount of diet or exercise will make you taller. Human growth hormone can do it - but only while you are young and still growing. It's also not something you want to mess with unless you are unusually short due to some growth defect - in which case, that would fall under our ban on giving medical advice - and you should see a doctor. If you see "nutritional products" that claim something to be able to do this - ignore them - they are a scam.

SteveBaker (talk) 17:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

If you are still growing, then a good diet can make a big difference. If you're malnourished as a child, you generally won't grow to your full potential. --Tango (talk) 18:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I grew up to be around 3 inches taller than my brother. My dad hypothesized that this was due to my playing American football while I was in puberty, not so much because of the exercise but because of the many impacts which, as the theory goes, stimulated my bone growth. My dad isn't a doctor and neither am I. I'm actually posting this more as a question than anything. It's probably completely wrong, but is there any possibility of it not being completely wrong? - Lambajan 22:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

this stub may shed some light. It seems that the more impact a bone part gets, the more bone parts it gets.--Lenticel ^(talk) 23:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

There is also cosmetic surgery to lengthen leg bones in particular. It is a rather drastic option, and this information comes with no advice whatsoever. [14] ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

A boy I went to school with for 12 years was the runt of the class. He lived in an abusive home environment. He joined the Navy after high school and had a growth spurt and grew to 6 feet (1.83 meters). Just saying. Edison (talk) 04:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Importantly important

Does anyone know the e-mail address and/or phone number of those mad scientists with the machine that could destroy the world? February 15, 2009 (talk) 23:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Many people know that information. Please do not misuse the ref-desk by posting questions with false premises, even if done facetiously. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

You mean the LHC? Try http://www.cern.ch/ . However, I suspect they are rather busy right now and have already responded to all the concerns people have about the experiment (try reading some of the news articles on the subject), so I would advise against wasting their time (you won't get anywhere anyway, I expect they receive emails and phone calls on a daily basis about it). --Tango (talk) 23:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Repent! Repent! — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

As I WOULD have just posted on my blog if I wasn't at school and the site wasn't blocked, if I have to tell one more person the world isn't going to end...Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 01:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I've been telling people the world isn't going to end as well. If I'm wrong, nobody will ever know, so I win either way. -88.109.98.70 (talk) 11:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - this is one of the few issues I've ever heard scientists give a firm answer on. They usually hedge their bets at least a little, but this time even Stephen Hawking has said definitively that the world will not end. They know perfectly well they're not going to lose their funding for getting that one wrong (they'll still lose their funding if the world ends, of course, but at least it won't be a black mark on their professional record)! --Tango (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The math of this question is interesting. When Fermi and company fired off the first atomic bomb during WW2, there was a similar concern that there was a very small probability of devastating consequences that the nuke would start a process which would end human life on earth (it has yet to be determined whether in an indirect way that might yet happen through nuclear proliferation).If there is a one in a million chance of an undesirable event, such as a bridge collapsing while we drive over it, or a subway tunnel collapsing while we ride a train through it, most rational people would proceed with their travel. If the event is the end of the world, then there would be a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of killing 6.7 billion people, or a mathematical expectation of the deaths of 6,700 people as a result of pressing the "Start" button, which would be twice the devastation of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. What is an acceptable risk? A 1 in 100,000,000 risk would be equivalent to killing 67 people outright by pressing the "Start" button, still probably unacceptable when the only benefit is an advance in knowledge of high energy physics. But a leader of a country would consider 67 deaths a small price to pay for some military adventure which gained him some political advantage. Looking at it the other way, if a major public work is built, like a major dam, a tunnel, a bridge, or even the excavations for the collider, several workmen are likely to be killed in construction accidents, and this is judged regrettable but does not prevent the project from going ahead. Most rational people would want the chances of an experiment ending human life on earth to be very small indeed, as in utterly impossible. Those with some historical perspective will recall that early X ray experimenters were as certain that rays could not harm a person as promoters of this atom smasher are that it could not create unruly and destructive black holes. Yet Xrays killed many people such as Clarence Madison Dally. Edison (talk) 16:04, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow!! Well, I was going to recommend you visit the web site at http colon slash slash www dot ehow dot com slash how_2049858_make-tinfoil-hat dot html and follow their excellent instructions carefully. But for the first time EVER (for me) Wikipedia refused to accept my edit because that website is on it's blacklist!?! (I had no idea there even WAS a blacklist!) Well, if that isn't proof of a great Wikipedia/LHC conspiracy - I don't know what is! Better make sure you buy the things you'll need soon - because I'm sure supplies are running low already. SteveBaker (talk) 17:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we need a listing of signs that a small black hole might be absorbing things in one's proximity. Like: 10:I can't find my car keys. 9:I call the cat and it does not appear. 8:Wasn't there one piece of pie left in the refrigerator? Edison (talk) 04:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

......1: I answer the front door only to find a mini black hole standing there with "Made in Switzerland" written on it. Fribbler (talk) 15:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah so that's where all their national football team's talent has disappeared to. Lemon martini (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC).

Even more stuff on the machine is on the sci desk. Sizzle bang – Donna Noble has been saved... Julia Rossi (talk) 12:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Everybody, quick! Add this handy link to your bookmarks!!11! --LarryMac | Talk 15:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

September 10

"Re-entering" student...

Ok, here's my story: I graduated from college about 5 years ago with a B.A. in English, convinced I was going to be a teacher. Well, that didn't work out so well (i.e., I hated it), so I ended up doing other stuff. One thing led to another, blah blah blah, and I've come to realize that my interests really lay in Computer Science. My work has sort of been involved with comp sci, but on a more functional rather than technical side. Right now, for example, my job is sort of akin to a business systems analyst (albeit nowhere near as glamorous as that sounds (does it even sound glamorous?))

I've been thinking for a long time about getting more of an education in Computer Science, but I'm really struggling figuring out how to do it. I don't even mean the money or time issues, since I'm prepared to take out loans if I have to and am willing to commit whatever time I have (that isn't sucked up by my 9-5 job to pay the bills). I'm really just talking about how to even go about getting started. I've been looking at local colleges, and of course they offer degrees in Computer Science, but all the information I've seen seems to be geared towards "traditional" undergrad students. One of the local colleges offesr certification programs in specific aspects of comp sci (i.e., certain languages and applications), and I've been considering those as well.

I guess I'm just looking for advice and/or guidance on how to proceed? I imagine it would be a good idea to call the Admissions office, but what do I ask them? I guess that sounds like a dumb question, but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all this, and if anybody out there has had experience with this / knows someone who has / knows where I can find more information, I'd be grateful. I don't really have any friends who are considering or have done something like this, so you faceless masses of the Internets are my next best hope. Thanks in advance for any help. Dgcopter (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The Open University specializes in "non-traditional" students. DuncanHill (talk) 01:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's start with, which country are you in, and what exactly do you think you want to do if you get a comp sci degree? Business systems analysis, for instance, does not in my experience benefit much from a comp sci degree. In the UK, you might be much better off getting ITIL or PRINCE qualifications, for instance. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm actually in the U.S. As for what I was thinking about doing, I guess I was hoping to get more involved in the technical side of things (i.e., programming and design). Dgcopter (talk) 01:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm in a similar boat myself. I have a BA in Film, but I realized that I wanted to do graphic design so I'm returning to school in two weeks to get an Associate's Degree. While I was working my 9 to 5 job (which I've sent left), I started taking night classes at two local community colleges in Photography, Graphic Design and Japanese. They were great because they were very affordable and really offered an education that I felt was as good as a four-year school's programs.

I would suggest that you maybe do the same. While you're working, you can get started taking night classes in computer science at a local community college. It sounds like you already have computer science knowledge, so it probably wouldn't be hard to get the basic stuff done while you're still working. If you want to get into your new career, you're probably going to need to leave your job (or work part-time) and attend college on a full-time basis (I believe that many loans require you to attend school at least half-time as well). If you're looking at a specific program, call up that college and tell them that you're interested in a post-baccalaureate program and you're wondering how to go about it. Ask about job placement as well. Ask them what kind of jobs graduates receive when they're done with the program. That will give you an idea of what the program is geared toward. Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> (talk) 02:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

You might wish to look at the age distribution of students at the colleges you are considering. If almost all students at a college are attending right out of high school and live in the dorms, you may have trouble fitting in as a peer, which is important both socially and in terms of getting together to work on homework and to study. If, on the other hand, a college has a lot of commuter students, those who are taking evening/weekend classes while they work, veterans who have taken a few years off to do military service, or displaced housewives who are completing their education after getting divorced, you may find you are less of an oddball in the population. Edison (talk) 15:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, you might want to think about this - do you actually need a degree in computer science? If you merely had lots of knowledge in the area of computer science - and your teaching degree - wouldn't that be enough to land you a job in that field? It's certainly possible to teach yourself the programming side of things. The single biggest factor in how good a programmer you'll be is the number and size of the programs you've written - and if you were to carry on with your present job and become a "self taught" programmer in your spare time - then you'd be no worse off than a fresh-faced graduate straight out of a comp.sci course at college. If you wanted to - you could even take a couple of course units in your local community college to make sure you're covering the right ground.

If you think that's a viable route to the job you want then I would do this:

1. Pick up the most basic introductory book on "Java" that you can find.
2. Download the free software package "Eclipse" - which is a Java "IDE" (Integrated Development Environment)...which is how you enter your programs, run them, find and fix bugs.
3. Go through the book from cover to cover - work all of the examples. Surf the web for other Java stuff that seems interesting (there is an enormous amount of stuff out there).
4. Practice, practice, practice. Think of a project - something that interests you - maybe something that would be useful at work...write it - get it working nicely.
5. Once you have Java down pat - you could perhaps finagle your way into teaching it someplace. That would look great on your resume later.
6. Once Java is easy for you - switch to another programming language "C++" - do the same thing - get a book - work through it step by step. Initially, you'll find this a LOT easier than learning Java - most programming languages are kinda similar. However, you'll encounter a lot of new stuff.
7. Sign up to help out with an "OpenSource" project of some kind - teams of programmers from all around the world get together on the 'net to write software that they give away for nothing. This will expose you to a lot more code - a lot more practical issues (like finding bugs in other people's code) and will (again) look very good on your resume.

I think this process would take maybe about the same amount of time as a formal college course - but you'd be able to work while you're doing it - and it'll be a lot more self-paced.

...but then - maybe college would work better for you - I can't tell! SteveBaker (talk) 16:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The real question is whether you want to study Computer Science, or become a software developer. It's true that the two are related, but they're really, really, really not the same thing.

> "One of the local colleges offesr certification programs in specific aspects of comp sci (i.e., certain languages and applications)"

If a course is about specific languages and applications, it's not computer science. (OK, a course taught in Lisp or Haskell probably is CS, but I'd still argue that that's a course in functional programming taught in Haskell as opposed to a course in Haskell per se.) 81.187.153.189 (talk) 18:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

To answer 81...'s question, I guess I didn't realize there was a way to be a software developer without having obtained a degree in Computer Science. That being the case, I would clarify that my interest in comp sci is related specifically to the area of software development. In that vein, Steve's suggestions seem especially helpful. I'm going to take a trip down to the bookstore and see if I can't find a Java book like he mentioned. I've often considered teaching myself programming languages -- in fact, I have a little experience in that area, having taught myself QBASIC back in the day (but then again, what geek born in the '80s didn't? :-)), and having taken a class in C++ in college. I guess I just wasn't sure how to go about it. Thanks to all for your very helpful suggestions!Dgcopter (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes 81's point is very valid. There is a lot more to Comp.Sci than programming. However, there is also a lot less than programming too! But if you want to become a software developer - and presuming you already have a degree of some kind - then I think you can at least consider being self-taught as an option...especially if you're prepared to take the time to do it properly. Compared to doing a degree for three years - an agressive self-help program spanning three years is cheaper, probably just as interesting - and maybe doesn't have a huge impact on your ability to get a job at the end of it. What's important is to be able to show that you've written a heck of a lot of code. If you can point to the fact that you've learned Java to the point where you've been teaching it in highschool for a year or more - and that you can show off some OpenSource package that you wrote - and that you were able to operate in a "team setting" by collaborating with people on the 'net - then I think you'll be able to get the same kind of entry-level programming job that a Comp.Sci graduate could get. You might want to get some serious career advice on that point before you launch into it on the basis of what I say alone...but I've been a working programmer since 1977 - I've hired a lot of people and I know I would be just as happy to employ someone with that kind of background as I would a Comp.Sci graduate.

I wouldn't give that advice to someone who didn't already have a degree though.

SteveBaker (talk) 19:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

As to which languages to learn: I strongly recommend Java - then C++ - IN THAT ORDER!! I'd have said that a course in Lisp or Haskell pretty much had to be a more theoretical-type CS course - the number of commercial programs written in either of those two languages is so small as to be effectively zero! The vast majority of jobs are in Java/JavaScript/PHP - and in C++/C#. Java is easier to learn than C++ and the things you learn when picking up Java are not wasted if you want to go the C++ route later. JavaScript and PHP are pretty trivial to pick up if you know at least one other language. C# is still pretty new and it's not entirely clear what it's ultimate commercial niche might be - a lot of people like it for programs which have heavyweight user-interface requirements and which will only ever need to run under some flavor of MS Windows. Right now, most web-based stuff is Java/JavaScript/PHP and almost 100% of high performance and embedded applications are in C++ (or C which is a limited subset of C++).

Programmers are like linguists - once you've learned a couple of languages, you can pick up more of them very easily because you're really only learning the differences between the new language and some other that you already know. I learned both PHP and JavaScript over one weekend. After 30 years of that - I honestly don't know how many languages I know...there are too many to count. But you'll always be finding new languages you need for a particular job. Python, Ruby, Perl, HLSL/Cg, Lua (and yes, Lisp and Haskell)...those are all things you may trip over along the way for some particular specialist need - but once you have C++ and Java - they won't be a problem for you.

SteveBaker (talk) 19:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with most of what's been said. By way of example, I happen to work at a large software development lab, and there are plenty of people here with non-CS degrees. True, among people who joined relatively recently it's probably the most common (and is what I did) but the combined number of mathematicians, physicists and engineers is probably similar, maybe greater. English is going to be a little more unusual, but if you had the right sort of experience noone would find it remarkable. My current team-leader studied agricultural chemistry, specialising in the breakdown of sewage, and there's rumoured to be someone lurking around the lab with a qualification in crustacean pharmacology - the prescription of drugs to lobsters!

In practice, software development is only really learned by doing it. A relevant degree can give you a head start, but I learned far more about developing software by working with some very skilled peers than I ever did on the formal courses. A good hiring manager should be aware of this, and weight good solid experience appropriately. I would note that just dabbling in a language at home doesn't count as "good solid experience" though - and even doing lots of programming on your own is not great because "development" is a lot more than just "programming". Also, there are some commercial realities that you can really only learn in a commercial environment, but since your aim is to get that job it's rather like opening the box with the crowbar that's inside it :-) . If you could show at interview that you'd made significant contributions to an open-source project that people have heard of, I think that would reassure almost anyone that you were competent.

One more thing - don't rule out the formal course. Hopefully we've convinced you that learning by experience can be as good (or better, frankly) but that's not the same thing as telling you "don't do the course, it's a bad idea." And either way - best of luck!81.187.153.189 (talk) 21:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh well, I can always fall back on Fortran IV, Basic, Pascal, and PDP-8 assembly language [15]. Edison (talk) 04:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Good ol' Fortran IV. Once you were done larding up your program with assigned GOTO's, weren't no-one would dare fire you! Franamax (talk) 08:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

God Being An Angel

In His Dark Materials, God, the Authority, is false, fake and fraud, not really God or a god but actually an angel. Once, in one question, I asked someone if it was possible that God could be false, fake and fraud, not really God or a god but actually an angel in reality, in the real world, in real life.

Christians claim to have a lot of proof or evidence for Christianity to be the one true religion. For example, they claim to have proof or evidence that the Bible was inspired by God and that Jesus was God and the son of God (see Christological argument). For example, they claim that the Bible has many fulfilled prophecies and that there is proof that Jesus rose from the dead. They claim to have a lot of miracles which prove Christianity to be true (see argument from miracles).

If God was false, fake and fraud, not really God or a god but actually an angel in reality, in the real world, in real life, then what would it mean for all the proofs and evidences that Christians claim for Christianity to be the one true religion? For example, what would it mean for all the miracles that Christians claim prove Christianity to be the one true religion, the argument from miracles? What would it mean for the Christological argument for the existence of God?

One thing about proofs and evidences is that they can be faked. For example, a photograph used as evidence for something can be faked.

Bowei Huang (talk) 04:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The religion has been debunked dozens of times and it hasn't slowed them down one bit. Cognitive dissonance is the answer you are looking for. Plasticup ^T/C 07:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course, Plasticup. You have the complete answer to everything in the universe. If only we'd realised that sooner it would have saved us all a lot of trouble. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Come now, even the Pope agrees that you have to ignore the facts and take it on faith. They have made rejection of logic one of the core underpinnings of the Church. If that's doesn't lead to cognitive dissonance then I don't know what will. Please don't take offense; I am not making a normative argument that this is better or worse than a life based on logic. Plasticup ^T/C 16:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Ultimately, one must take something on faith - that you're not actually a brain in a vat (The Matrix et al.), that what you see is real (Plato et al.) and hey, even a less strenuous idea - that "reality" is three (or four) dimensional - is up for debate. When you wind it back to the first instant of time, why did it explode? Just cuz? Sounds like an article of faith to me. More fitting to Occam's Razor, to be sure, but that is precisely an edge case where all things are not equal. 98.169.163.20 (talk) 00:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

That same argument was once applied to lightning, rain, and the sunrise. The current trend suggests that your mysteries will be resolved in time. Science is pushing back the boundaries and bringing the illumination of knowledge to that which previously required faith. It requires less and less, while religion requires more and more. Plasticup ^T/C 05:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You speculate on what the implications would be for Christianity if it could be proven that God was in fact an angel, à la His Dark Materials, instead of a god. Since there is currently not a speck or shred of solid, reproducible, scientific evidence that the beliefs of Christians are any more rooted in fact than those of any other group of religious believers, and since the definition of "angel" and "god" vary enormously depending on who you talk to and what you read (and in what language), I submit to you that Christians' delight in producing a tangible, indisputable God would probably overcome any dissatisfaction with the fine detail of the exact nature of him (or her). Karenjc 13:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

While trying to avoid the snarkiness, Karen raises an interesting point. What's the significance of replacing Supernatural Creature A with Supernatural Creature B if B is able to do the same stuff A did? This is, of course, the duck test. A far better question is "what would happen if the miracles were disproved in a manner accepted by Christians?" Of course, since the "proofs" of skeptics and the "proofs" of believers, neither of which generally constitute actual proofs, fly right past each other to no effect, this situation is highly unlikely. — Lomn 14:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, it can make a difference if the issue is one of deception, e.g. worshipping a "false god" and then the "real god" punishes you for it. The little thought experiment I've always put out there is, "What if the Bible was written by Satan, and the Satan of the Bible is really God, and vice versa, and the values are actually swapped from what they should be?" People who believe recoil from the notion and usually claim that they'd somehow know the difference but I don't really see why that would be the case. The fact is that at the core of it all religions depend on the acceptance of a few core tenets and if you don't accept those then it's not even worth getting into a discussion with such people about said things. Could the Christian God be a false god and the real god be, say, the Hindu gods, etc.? Sure, just as the converse is believed to be true by most Christians. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

For some background on the treatment of God in His Dark Materials, the original poster may want to look at Gnosticism. Deor (talk) 15:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - per Lomm's post, I intended no snarkiness, just an answer to the practical implications of the original post. If God is proved to be an angel rather than this just being another suggestion of the theologians, then God's existence must inevitably have been proved too. Do believers bemoan the fact that their God was "false, fake and a fraud" and abandon him because he wasn't exactly what they expected? Do they celebrate the fact that they were pretty much on the right track but were not in possession of all the facts? Robert Heinlein's novel Job: A Comedy of Justice is quite fun on the concept of God-as-just-another-angel, and there are also parallels between the Pullman "Authority" and the god of the Gaea Trilogy of John Varley. But surely any quibbles over the nature of any definitively revealed God would be wholly swallowed up in the excitement of the revelation? Karenjc 17:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

There are of course some Christians who do proselytise and evangelise and try to prove to others that what they believe in is true. As there are with other religions. But the bulk of Christians don't do this. They just believe what they believe, and the question of proof is a matter of supreme indifference to them. That's actually the point of religious faith - there's a very good reason why the word "faith" is used. If there were proof, there would be no place for faith or belief. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

This is of course a vital survival trait of any religion. If you firmly believe that your god is a creature who lives in that tree over there - then you're pretty much screwed if someone cuts the tree down and there is no sign of it. Proper religions have evolved over the centuries to carefully weed out anything that might be disprovable. Hence, maybe once god lived in heaven up above the clouds...oh - so you climbed up that mountain and looked down on the clouds? Well, by that we meant WAY above the clouds...you have planes now?....actually, well outside of the stratosphere...er, beyond orbit really...probably in a parallel plane of existance or something...WELL LOOK - YOU JUST CAN'T GET THERE WITHOUT ACTUALLY DYING - OK? When all falsifiable avenues have been carefully shut off - the only thing adherents have left is "faith" because any actual provable aspect of the belief might one day bring the entire exercise down by disproving that thing. If they were being honest - proponents would have to admit that with a god that has literally unlimited powers, you can't really trust your faith either because god might actually be some awful evil bad guy who merely twists your mind to make you think you have faith - and I don't see how that's any more or less likely than the version they believe in. SteveBaker (talk) 21:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

What would be the purpose of a single omnipotent being who created the universe, who turns out to be an awful evil bad guy? That would suggest he only created all his creations in order to eventually screw them, which seems the ultimate waste of time to me. That of course would only be awful, evil and bad from a human perspective, and the human perspective on the divine is fundamentally limited. I think there are 4 approaches to the divine: (1) refuse to accept it exists; (2) accept it exists and rail against it and blame all your woes on it; (3) accept it exists and attribute all wonderful and marvellous things to it and believe that the less than wonderful things happen for a higher purpose; or (4) accept it exists but also accept you will never understand it so there's little point in ascribing human characteristics to it, because it is by definition beyond mere humanity. I'm somewhere between 3 and 4. But, for the sake of argument, if god really were what we in the 21st century call "awful, evil and bad", then either those words would mean the opposite of what they mean today; or we'd call those traits by other, more positive names. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

With respect, I think your word choice for #1 supposes the [other] conclusion. For what it's worth, the first three suggestions I had all felt the same way. And SteveBaker, let's take your (to me) most interesting hypothesis - which I shall dub the Divine Jerk. Suppose, for a moment, the Judeo-Christian mythology that the Jerk laid down ten rules - either he's going to reward you for following in his Jerkish endeavor, or he was going to jerk you around anyway. A jerkish variant on Pascal's Gambit, to be sure, but it fits. 98.169.163.20 (talk) 00:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The Divine Jerk? Randolph Churchill put it better after trying to read the Bible for a bet - "God! God's a shit!". DuncanHill (talk) 00:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

98.169, can you explain what you mean by "the [other] conclusion" and "the first three suggestions I had". -- JackofOz (talk) 01:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The article you might be looking for is Protestant Reformation. At its nicest, it was a polite but adamant disagreement over how to properly worship God. At its most rancorous, groups such as the Puritans viewed the Roman Catholic church as being irredeemably corrupted by Satan (an angel, by the way). Even today, there are Protestant groups which view Catholic priests as the devil's henchmen. For their part, the Catholic church tended to view the ordeal as Lucifer corrupting suggestible minds, and luring them from the one, true path. -- 99.153.134.31 (talk) 01:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

And Bowei, you have been asked to desist dozens of times and it hasn't stopped you from intitiating these debates either. Is there a link? Julia Rossi (talk) 12:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I enjoyed witnessing this feeding. Stanstaple (talk) 19:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

And yet, I feel that Elohim may be a useful reference anyway. For what it's worth, as a bona fide Roman Catholic, if God were a "super-angel", that would only cause one tiny problem - as far as I'm aware, we allege that He created them, so we have a Prime Mover who Moves Himself. But ignoring what an axiom is by definition, and supposing God were actually an Angel, or a Hippo, or a Turtle in no way substantively challenges any article of faith - the closest that come to mind are the beliefs that Jesus is His Son, but hey, if you are an all powerful Turtle (and presumably not of the mutant, ninja, or even teenaged variety) you could have a human son - that sort of thing was actually really popular with the Greek, Egyptian, Norse and Mesopotamian gods (among others, I'm sure), and we hold that He is worthy of praise above all else ("Thou shalt have no other gods besides me." Ten Commandments) so if Zues can do it, so can God. The other problem is our article of faith that we - are made in His image - and when I went to school, I was taught this was in his spiritual image (which makes, you know, all our different faces not so big a deal) - so who is anyone to suggest that inside, we're not all spiritually Turtlish? ... but as an aside, for your future posts, while the Rule of Three (writing) is great, "false, fake, and a fraud," isn't actually a triple, it's redundant, tautological, and repetitive. 98.169.163.20 (talk) 00:22, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Song from the 60's perhaps 70's with Bach melody

Do you know what it is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr.K. (talk • contribs) 11:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

There may well be several of these, but "A Lover's Concerto" is one that fits your specifications. Deor (talk) 12:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

That was by Mozart. not Bach. Edison (talk) 04:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No, not by Morzart. Minuet in G major is now usually attributed to Christian Petzold, but was thought by Bach for long.Oda Mari (talk) 05:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

"Joy" by Apollo 100? This was an instrumental. Clarityfiend (talk) 15:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I would vote for this one. They played Bach's Ode to Joy very fast and without much emotion. A critic at the time said "I hope that at least they were grinning when they recorded that, not serious like they were doing something of value." Edison (talk) 04:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

That should be Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring", shouldn't it? Music to Friedrich Schiller's poem Ode to Joy has been written by several composers, most notably Ludvig van Beethoven (see Anthem of Europe), but J.S. Bach isn't on the list. Possibly because he died before Schiller was born ;-) --NorwegianBlue ^talk 08:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A Whiter Shade of Pale also, feeling wise. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

American Tune by Paul Simon. Though it's a reworking of an earlier secular song.
Bourée by Jethro Tull (band). This was also an instrumental. Oda Mari (talk) 16:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

There was also the Dutch group Ekseption who played a lot of classical themes, including many from J.S. Bach, including Badinerie from the orchestral suite in b minor, Air from the suite in D major, and a several more. Then you have ex Walter now Wendy Carlos, with the legendary album Switched-On Bach. An of course, the Swingle Singers arranged many Bach works, most notably in the album "Bach's greatest hits". --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

There was another instrumental that reached No. 1 in the USA for a while in 1968. It wasn't based on any classical piece but many people assumed it was; and if it had been, Bach would be a reasonable fit - Love is Blue. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Frederic James watercolor painting

I have one of his paintings and was attempting to research the value of it. How can I find information on pricing. Thanks for your time. Teresa —Preceding unsigned comment added by Inkansas (talk • contribs) 11:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

There are numerous websites that will show you the results of previous sales of James' paintings. But you must subscribe and pay for the privilege. If you only want to value one work then it would probably better to ask an art dealer/valuer. Fribbler (talk) 12:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

One of the public sites mentions / shows an FJ guache, estimated at USD 400 to 600. The price may also depend on whether you offer it for sale in KC or some other place. Of course, other criteria (apart from the aquarelle itself) are the quality of the paper / lightfastness / etc, which nobody but an expert can evaluate. A reputable dealer will also know collectors who may pay more than some random person. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Kissing

If I have sex with a woman, and dont kiss her I feel great afterwards, even if I have known her for a while and know shes a good person. It is a bit of an ego boost. However, if I do kiss any given woman that I happen to sleep with, the next day, I am in love, or have love like feeling for her, even though I dont really know her atall. What is it in kissing that transforms the act of sex into a love type feelings? Is this why aparently prostitutes do not kiss? how can one get over these feelings quickly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 12:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

try this (http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=affairs-of-the-lips-why-we-kiss) for a bit of info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you have the cause and effect the right way round? Could it be that you only kiss women when you have strong feelings for them? --Tango (talk) 15:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

No, i have it right, I meet her, 2 hours later we have done the deed, if I kiss her I end up loving herif I dont, I never think about her again. why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

For the data to avoid a confound on you kissing her because you feel love beforehand, there would be the necessity to randomize the trials, as by tossing a coin ahead of time to determine whether to kiss. (Psych 105 lab was never like this!) Edison (talk) 04:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

How large is this data set? Love seems to be a discrete variable with a Bernoulli distribution. If you can get a large enough sample size we can easily estimate the variance and tell you whether this effect is statistically significant. Plasticup ^T/C 04:57, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

ABS Light

What does ABS in a car mean? What does that mean when that light goes off in a car? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.251.14 (talk) 16:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

ABS means Anti-lock braking system - you should check the car manual to see what the light going on or off means. DuncanHill (talk) 16:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Generally - the ABS system is designed to prevent your wheels from locking up and skidding when you brake heavily. It measures the speeds at which each of the wheels are rotating and if any of them stop moving while the others are still rotating, it'll briefly let go of the brakes to get the wheel spinning again - then reapply them. Because tires grip better when they are rotating in contact with the ground than when they are skidding across it, this actually reduces your braking distance.

If you are braking that hard, you generally feel the brakes going on and off through a shaking in the brake pedal - don't worry about it - that's what it's supposed to do.

Now - as to the warning light...it depends on the kind of car you have (which is why you need to read the owner's manual). But if the light is solidly on all the time, it probably means that your ABS system has failed. The most common reason for this by far is that one or more of the wheel speed sensors have failed (or the cable that hooks them up to the computer has broken or something).

If the light is merely flickering on - perhaps only when you do actually brake hard - but perhaps also if you are pulling away hard from a dead stop or trying to corner and brake at the same time (generally not a good idea!)...then that may mean it's operating normally - and the light is just a visual confirmation of that. Again - that's why you need to read the owner's manual.

On some cars (like my MINI Cooper for example), the ABS is tied in with other similar things - traction control, brake-force distribution, dynamic stability management, cornering control and tire pressure monitoring. All of those things also use the wheel speed sensors. So, for example, the traction control measures the speeds of the wheels that the engine is driving and compares them to the speeds that the non-powered wheels are spinning. If the powered wheels are going faster than the non-powered wheels then it's likely that you are accellerating hard off the line and the tires are squealing! The system reduces the engine power a little to stop the wheels from spinning and actually gets you going faster.

So if (like my car) there are a whole bunch of similar features - then they may all be sharing the same warning light...which might explain why it's flickering if you are driving agressively.

Finally - on my car, you can turn off all of those fancy features - including ABS - and then the warning light comes on to remind you that you did that. If you can turn off the ABS on your car, then maybe you did that by accident. If so, you need to be really aware of what all the controls do because if you have to brake hard in an emergency and the ABS is turned off - it would be REALLY BAD! (Hence the warning light).

In my car, the ABS light comes on green when it's actually doing something, orange if you turned it off and red if the ABS (or one of the other features) is broken somehow.

You should definitely read the owners manual - and if it is a true fault condition - get it fixed. When virtually every other car on the road has ABS and you don't - it can be really quite dangerous because they can (and do) stop a lot faster than you can.

SteveBaker (talk) 16:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Tire pressure! Cool! What happens if you change tires/size? Saintrain (talk) 22:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Further reading suggests it's just relative speed not revs/mile. So if you lose pressure evenly in all tires it doesn't trigger? Saintrain (talk) 23:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Windmill blades in Texas

I drive the route from Austin to Dallas and back (180 miles each way) along interstate 35 roughly once a week - it's easily the most boring road on the planet so there is plenty of time for thinking and any notable event becomes the most exciting thing that's likely to happen to me for the next 3 hours. Hence, I've increasingly started to notice I always pass several gigantic trucks - each with a pair of those gigantic windmill blades on the back, always heading North. This is a very encouraging sign for anyone who's concern is global warming - it suggests that new windmills are going up somewhere at a phenomenal rate...my journey takes 3 hours - and I usually see at least one or two sets of blades - even when I travel on a weekend. If they ship them out all day at that kind of rate - that suggests that windmills are being erected somewhere in the USA at a rate of maybe a couple every few hours! (If they were for export - they'd presumably be headed to the docks at Houston).

My question is - are these all heading up interstate 35 because there is a factory somewhere nearby that's making them and shipping them throughout the USA to be assembled - or is it that they are being imported from someplace nearby and assembled in Texas? It seems like a HUGE number - and this campaign by T Boone Pickens hasn't really gotten into gear yet...or has it already started?

SteveBaker (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Panhandle? Check out the map in the middle of Texas Wind Energy. Saintrain (talk) 23:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

According to wind power in Texas, "as of 2007, 942 MW of wind power is currently under construction in Texas." — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

General Electric & Siemens are cited in the v.interesting Texas Wind Energy page as manufacturers at the largest Texas windfarm. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Windpower is also being installed in southeastern Colorado, just across the narrow Oklahoma panhandle from the Texas panhandle. Marco polo (talk) 18:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Piped labcoat?

Could anyone tell me where I could get a labcoat with black piping on it? You know, like how Occupational Therapists' tunics have green piping etc. I've looked around online to no avail. 92.0.40.132 (talk) 18:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

September 11

Three wattage lightbulb default level

If I have a three wattage bulb (you know, the ones made for lamp that have three levels of brightness) what will it default to if I use it in a lamp/fixture that only has one brightness level, i.e., an on/off switch with no way to turn up the brightness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.9.159 (talk) 04:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Full power. Do you even need a special bulb for a dimmable lamp? I have never seen a special bulb that has magic dimmers embedded in them. --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the questioner means a three-way bulb. It has two filaments and three settings - low filament on, high filament on, and both filaments on (highest brightness). I'm not sure which would be used if placed in a normal "on/off" lamp --Bennybp (talk) 10:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A three-way bulb has two contacts on the base, compared to one for a normal light bulb. Which of the filaments will light up depends on which of those contacts (if either) touches the contact in the socket. From reading descriptions of 3-way bulbs (which are a North American phenomenon, it appears, and not known in the rest of the world), I'm guessing that the center high-wattage contact will connect and the outer low-wattage contact won't, resulting in the bulb putting out its medium brightness. FiggyBee (talk) 11:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A normal lightbulb has two contacts on the base. DuncanHill (talk) 12:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, a 'normal' Edison screw lightbulb, vs a bayonet cap. In Australia we use both kinds, which can occasionally be annoying. FiggyBee (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Do we have a photo of the base of a three-way bulb? --Random832 (contribs) 13:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't find one, but I found descriptions. The high-wattage contact is in the center like the single contact on the bottom of a single-filament edison screw. The low-wattage contact is a ring around the high-wattage contact. I found several sources which said that a single-filament bulb in a three-way socket will go off-off-on-on as the switch is moved through the four positions, suggesting that the single contact on that bulb connects to the high-wattage contact in the socket only - hence my deduction that it would work the same with a single contact socket and a three-way bulb. FiggyBee (talk) 13:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Geez, i must be old, as sticking three way bulbs in a regular socket, regular bulbs in a three way socket, and three way bulbs which had burned out to one way bulbs in both kind of sockets is something i seem to have a lot of experience with. anyway, yeah; the ring connection in the three way won't get contacted in a regular socket, so it just acts like the middle wattage. Note: not the high wattage; the high wattage is obviously both filaments at the same time, i.e. the lowest wattage plus the middle wattage, so if you can't contact the lowest wattage you only have the middle wattage.

now when you have a regular bulb in a three way socket, it's a bit unexpected; the bulb is on for two clicks, then off for two clicks. Gzuckier (talk) 17:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Unexpected unless almost every lamp you've ever used has been a three-way socket with a one-way bulb, that is. --Random832 (contribs) 19:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

100/200/300W tri-light bulb - large-base format

That combination is, or used to be, found in many North American motel rooms. I confirm what the others are saying. --Anonymous, 07:40 UTC, September 12, 2008.

Well, here's a lousy picture anyway. You can see the secondary ring between the standard thread and centre contacts. These large-base bulbs are a little hard to find nowadays but the modern small-base (same size as a single-wattage bulb) tri-light uses the same technique. And yes, it defaults to medium wattage. Franamax (talk) 07:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are Namibia and Botswana thinly populated?

Esp. since all the countries surrounding them are normally dense. 64.81.78.179 (talk) 05:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Desert? Jørgen (talk) 08:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks like Botswana is covered by desert so no wonder the population is low, but Namibia has a long stretch of uninterrupted coastline. Why aren't there more than two million people? 209.233.180.101 (talk) 19:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The uninterrupted coastline is blessed with, you guessed it, a second desert!!! Fribbler (talk) 19:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Why should it matter whether the coastline is interrupted or not? (Incidentally, it was until 1994, perhaps that explains everything...) By the way, the name Skeleton Coast also hints at a not-so-hospitable environment. Jørgen (talk) 20:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that they meant that an uninterrupted coastline, without an intervening mountain range, is generally arable. In this case, though, it isn't. Fribbler (talk) 22:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Compliance fund

What is a 'compliance fund'? I saw it on http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=COvdz4X6_NynEBDYBRhaMgjnC6FKGi1lIA (can't link to it) this ad and had no idea what it was supposed to signify. Nadando (talk) 05:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A compliance fund raises money to pay for complying with federal election laws. Also, the fund is not included in the McCain/Feingold limits on campaign funds. In old money: a loophole. Fribbler (talk) 10:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Businessman/Writer with a Church

What is the name of the person who writes/wrote books on successful business and has also founded his own church which is Internet based? The church was founded probably no more than ten years ago. Not sure whether the writer is English, but was certainly living in the UK last year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Curiousja (talk • contribs) 10:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you talking about L. Ron Hubbard? Scientology is more than ten years old, and isn't Internet-based. Corvus cornix_talk 20:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The Universal Life Church is older than that, too, although it's widely associated with its online activities and easy ordination. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

MIDSHIPMAN COVERS

The picture of the day[16] refers to a group of midshipmen throwing their covers in the air. Covers? why not cap or hat? What is the etymology of this word. I have an English dictionary which cannot help me - nor can the article midshipman or cover.Richard Avery (talk) 12:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi Richard Avery, did you want the language desk? Ambiguous, so won't moove a hair.  :) Julia Rossi (talk) 12:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I am vaguely aware that in the US Navy and Marines, any headwear is referred to as a 'cover'. I can't tell you why though! FiggyBee (talk) 12:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

From Peaked cap: "In the United States military, they are commonly known as service caps, wheel caps, or combination covers in the Naval services.". The etymology eludes me, but I think we can assume it's just because it covers your head. Military types have a penchant for inventing new words for common items. Fribbler (talk) 13:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict, ahoy) The very stubby Cover (military) briefly mentions this usage, but with no reference or etymology. Peaked cap says that "they are commonly known as ... combination covers in the Naval services." Take note of the United Kingdom / Royal Navy section in that article. It looks like the cloth portion of the cap is specifically the cover, and it doesn't seem like a stretch to go from that to using "cover" to refer to the whole cap, and from there to using it to refer to any headgear (for example, see the opening sentence of Garrison cap.)

This US Coast Guard page also distinguishes the various parts of the hat, including reference to "cloth hat frame covers", and note at the bottom of the page that you can buy just that cloth part as well. --LarryMac | Talk 13:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that guys and gal(s). I think Fribbler's idea on etymology probably makes most sense in the absence of other info. Yes Julia, it should have been the Language Desk, but. . .er. . .um. . .I'm new round here;-)) Richard Avery (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Naughty Richard A. Julia Rossi (talk) 12:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Missing line on this Wikipedia page

Why is the border line under the tabs (eg the "project page" tab) not appearing on this page (ref desk misc)? I have created a screenshot.--Commander Keane (talk) 13:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It does for me (Safari on WinXP, with greenscreen gadget enabled). DuncanHill (talk) 13:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Ahh yes sorry browser details. Firefox 3.0.1 on WinXP for me.--Commander Keane (talk) 13:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I think this is a FF3 problem. I've been seeing it since I upgraded. I don't know what causes it or why it affects only some pages. Algebraist 13:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Testing seems to suggest it's a page size problem. Do you also find that the border at the bottom of the page (just below the categories) is not present, and the left border is only present in the middle two thirds or so of the page, and is much blacker than it should be? Algebraist 14:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes I have those exact symptoms and Cntl- reduces the page size and restores the lines back to normal.--Commander Keane (talk) 14:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Same here (no lines on top/bottom, thick line in center on side) on the school's computers. Firefox 3.x on WinXP. Dismas|^(talk) 20:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

By the way... The lines do show up as the page is being rendered (loaded? Is there a difference?) and only disappear once the page has fully done so. Dismas|^(talk) 21:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I thought I was the only one with weird FF3 experiences: it seems to only happen on the large pages, but the "symptoms" differ: sometimes the left hand line is missing in the middle, but present (but thicker) on the top and bottom thirds. Sometimes with, sometimes without top and bottom lines. But they don't usually show then disappear, as Dismas's do. Gwinva (talk) 21:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Now I check, I have the same experience as Dismas. This is probably a bug in FF; has anyone filed it as such? Algebraist 22:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No issue with Firefox on a Mac. Dismas|^(talk) 02:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Code of Ethics

When was the code of ethics introduced and who by? Why and when is it used?

Its just im doing a psychology course and this has popped up and i don't have a clue x —Preceding unsigned comment added by XxX Lil Carri XxX (talk • contribs) 15:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

There are numerous ethical codes around. Which in particular are you interested in? Algebraist 15:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

If this came up in a course then I strongly suggest asking your teacher. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

And if you're talking about professional ethics, how's about "If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death?" (Code of Hammurabi, item 229) Right there, you're at 3,750 years and counting... --- OtherDave (talk) 16:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

They might want you to be aware of the Hippocratic oath. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Sport

Hi, I'm needing to know how much sports stars like Tiger Woods, Andy Murray, Roger Federer, Rafiel Nadal, Jonny Wilkinson and any others earn for wearing and advertising brands like addidas, reebok and nike??? I've searched but couldn't find anything!!! Please help! Jenny —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.105.177.45 (talk) 18:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Sports Illustrated has a list of the top 50 here. It breaks it down to salary/winnings and endorsements. This might only be an overview though - sounds like you want specific companies (although SI does list sponsors for Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson --Bennybp (talk) 18:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The Tiger Woods article definitely lists the value of most of his endorsement contracts (US$100 million over 5 years from Nike, for example). A more specific request would most likely lead to more specific answers. --LarryMac | Talk 19:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Expiration date of common medications

Food items such as milk or yogurt has an expiry date because they will spoil if kept past that date. But what happens to common over-the-counter medications such as Tylenol or cough syrup if they are kept past their expiry date? What specific chemical reactions, if any, occurs in the medications? Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 21:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not recommended by the manufacturer to consume any medication after the listed expiration date. That said, in general consuming a medication past its prime won't hurt you. Many drugs are good long after their listed expiration date and most drugs don't really "go bad" so much as they just lose their potency, in which case the biggest problem is that the user/prescriber has no accurate way to track the administered dosage. Of course, some drugs do just go bad (e.g. epinephrine, insulin) and again, as a rule it is inadvisable to consume any product after its listed expiration date. --Shaggorama (talk) 00:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Most of the time they just lose a little potency. In fact, there are some programs that will take your expired $400 prescription drugs and give them to sick people in the third world. It's not as good as the real stuff, but apparently the poor aren't entitled to full strength medication. Plasticup ^T/C 05:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The Air Force did a study on this a while back. Google for drug expiration and you will find a number of articles. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You should of course talk to your doctor or pharmacist before actually using any medication that is past the date, rather than relying on information from a wiki. --Random832 (contribs) 16:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Printing/binding .pdf books

Hello. I have downloaded a fair number of non-copyrighted or public domain books, mostly in .pdf format, from places like Project Gutenberg, NASA and the like. While it is handy to read them on my computer as an electronic library, someday I would like to print them, bind them and have them as hard copy, to have a real library of some substance. Is there any method or equipment to do this on the home level. (The printing part is easy, of course. It's more the binding part I'm asking about.) Thank you. — Michael J 21:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems like you've already found the Wikipedia article on Bookbinding, but you should know Wikibooks has a publication on it as well [17]. There's also a page at Wikihowto [18]. You can probably find more sites by doing an internet search (e.g. Google) for phrases such as "bookbinding howto", "DIY bookbinding", etc. What equipment you'll need probably depends on what type of binding you want: a stitched hardcover "library binding", a glued paperback, Comb binding, VeloBind, etc. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 22:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Additional thought - if you're not necessarily interested in doing the binding yourself, most print shops offer binding services for a nominal fee, although they may not offer hardcover/paperback-type bindings. An alternative is to contact a local librarian, and ask who they use to re-bind their books. (Library books often have their bindings wear out. If a replacement cannot be purchase, the library often elects to have the book rebound, most often in hardcover form.) -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 22:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow! I didn't even know there was a Wikihowto. That's perfect. Thanks! — Michael J 03:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Additional thought - if you are interested in doing it yourself, a local craft store or scrapbooking store may help out with equipment and advice. -- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 17:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

There are also services like Lulu.com (I put in the link, but Wikipedia says it's blacklisted) that will help you 'publish' your book online, allowing others to buy physical copies as well. If your books are public domain, you wouldn't need author permission. --- OtherDave (talk) 10:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You could also, of course, look for published reprints. Dover Publications reprints a lot of old public domain books. -- BenRG (talk) 13:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Barnes and Noble has a "classic book" series of public domain books which are usually very cheap (and often on sale). I picked up Volume 1 of the Complete Sherlock Holmes for $3 or so awhile back, and a three-for-$5 of Heart of Darkness, House of Seven Gables, and Gulliver's Travels another time.

In my opinion, your best bet, frankly, is either buy the cheap reprints, which are probably going to still be cheaper and higher quality than whatever you'll manage to cobble together on your own, or to get one of them newfangled reader gadgets (i.e. the Amazon Kindle or whatever) that lets you read the e-copies directly. Binding your own public domain books will not only cost money, but it'll take a lot of time. The cheap reprints benefit from economies of scale, and at least someone has taken a quick pass over them to make sure the formatting is in good shape. That's worth a couple dollars to me, anyway. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Good point. That will work for the "classics." I'll look into it. (I don't want to get into an e-book reader, because I like the tactile sensation of a hardcover-bound paper book. It's an aesthetic thing.) Maybe I will limit my binding efforts to the NASA technical manuals and the like, which aren't available elsewhere. — Michael J 20:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100% about the tactile aspect! This comic pretty much sums up my views on the Kindle: "Wouldn't you prefer to read books on a device that looks and feels like your first graphic calculator?" --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

September 12

Will an Electric Takoyaki Maker from Japan Work in the US

I want to buy a takoyaki maker, because I don't have a gas oven for the skillets. Its power supply is AC100V 50/60Hz would it work in the US, and would it heat up hotter in the US? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.210.104.79 (talk) 02:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Where in the world is 100 v the supply voltage? Why do you presuppose that you octopus dumpling maker would run on 100 volts, a supply voltage I do not know to be presently used in any country? The US gave up 100 volts in favor of 110 or 120 in the 19th century, and most countries use 230 volts. A 100 volt appliance would probably overheat on U.S. 120 volt supply, and a 230 volt appliance would probably work on a U.S. 240 volt supply, but the manufacturer should be consulted to make sure it would be safe to use it on 240 volts. 2409 volts is widely availabe in the U.S., and in some locations 208 volts is supplied in addition to 120 volts. Edison (talk) 04:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I found one rated at 100 volts [19]. I am puzzled still as to where 100 volts is the distribution voltage. [20] suggests using a "voltage converter" or transformer. A 100 volt appliance should not be plugged in to a 120 volt supply. Having read about takoyaki, now I am craving some. Edison (talk) 04:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

[21] says in Japan 100 volts is the distribution voltage. So I would find a voltage convertor or transformer rated at the demand of the appliance or higher. Edison (talk) 05:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

What's the power consumption of the machine? If it's high, I think it's dangerous to use the machine in the USA, even if you use a transformer. Oda Mari (talk) 05:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Why would you say that? If the transformer has a power rating greater than the device, the electricity will be exactly the same - it can't tell they're not Japanese electrons. The device Edison links above is 650W and carries CE and GS safety ratings. Especially since it's a straight resistive load, it would work perfectly well with a 120/100V 1KVA transformer. Franamax (talk) 06:39, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. It's OK with 1KVA transformer. Oda Mari (talk) 14:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

God

Duplicate question removed. See #God Being An Angel on this page. --Masamage ♫ 03:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Who does all yer lawyerin'?

Just wondering where you guys get lawyers from because I know a guy who would be good at it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.159.158.34 (talk) 04:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you offering his services? Plasticup ^T/C 05:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

If you are referring to Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation - there is only one lawyer retained, Mike Godwin. There doesn't seem to be a need for anyone else. Nanonic (talk) 05:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I live near Washington DC. When we need a lawyer, we just open the door and shake a checkbook. --- OtherDave (talk) 10:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes you don't even have to do that.Say 'lawsuit' without thinking and you'll find hundreds of them in the house.You'll need to have them removed by professional exterminators Lemon martini (talk) 12:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Altering a tailored jacket

What is the easiest way of taking in a mans tailored wool jacket that is too big at the waist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.240.8 (talk) 18:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The easiest way is to take it to a tailor. Strawless (talk) 18:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Tamil and Chinese words

Moved to the Language Desk, where you should get a better response. -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSJcXPCxlzI

who is singing in this clip, not suitable for the office. nazi executions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.18.32.117 (talk) 20:38, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"From the Time You Say Goodbye" is sung by Vera Lynn. DuncanHill (talk) 22:02, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"Lily Marlene" sounds like Vera too. And I have now just found a comment by the originator of the clip on the site linked to that all 3 songs are sung by Vera. DuncanHill (talk) 22:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The third song is "Auf wiederseh'n Sweetheart" and is definately Vera Lynn. DuncanHill (talk) 22:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

SAT I

What is SAT I? The SAT article on Wikipedia doesn't seem to say anything about it. Is it something completely different? --212.120.246.239 (talk) 22:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Googling makes it appear that it is (now) the same thing, since it seems to be being used interchangeably with just plain 'SAT'. Rather, the SAT article makes reference to an 'old' SAT II: "the writing section of the SAT, based on but not directly comparable to the old SAT II subject test in writing," which suggests that there was, once, a SAT I and SAT II - the latter of which was dropped. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 22:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Gas Detector

What machine or tool is able to detect gas underground, like if there is a leak? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.156.167.54 (talk) 23:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

A Canary. DuncanHill (talk) 00:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

We have a very stubby article Gas detector. DuncanHill (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Larry King Live

I am thinking about calling Larry King Live. Please tell me what happens when you do this. 66.53.210.120 (talk) 00:37, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Be bold and call LKL then come back as an expert. -hydnjo talk 01:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Do I have to get put on hold or anything? 66.53.208.56 (talk) 03:55, 13 September 2008 (UTC)