Wikipedia:Requests for comment/168

Community edited version of what happened:

As a participant in a multi-party dispute over one much-discussed paragraph in DNA, 168 reverted to an old version, which he favored. When User:Lir undid the reversion, 168... reverted again and protected the page. Other admins said protection was called for, but said the fact that 168... had done it made the act improper. 168... also protected Wikipedia:Conflicts between users while a participant in a brief multi-party dispute involving Lir over that page then unprotected it again two minutes later.

For discussion, see Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/168

Pledge Poll

Although the principle this poll invites people to affirm may not actually contradict current policy (it depends how strictly you interpret current policy), a broad affirmation of this rule may make sysops feel more free to police against antisocial behavior as we all wait for the arbitration system to roll into action.

If a determined troublemaker makes enough people lose patience, they will be shown the door. That has always been true, and I expect it always will. Whether that takes the form of Jimbo stepping in, or vigilantes taking action, or a committee rendering a decision -- whatever form it takes, this project will continue to fulfill its goal of making the world's best free encyclopedia. -- Uncle Ed

[Peak:] What is a "determined troublemaker"? How many people must lose patience? Or is it really a question of how many sysops lose patience?

[Peak:] I ask because your comments seem to imply that the system is generally working, but in my experience, existing procedures are actually inciting some "determined troublemakers" because trolling subvandals are being told, in effect, that they can wreak as much havoc as they like so long as it does not amount to vandalism in a very narrow sense. If the current system is as broken as it seems to be, then, as a stopgap measure, it seems reasonable for sysops to be given more latitude than they seem to have under existing rules. However I would like to see objective definitions of terms like "determined troublemaker". This could be done on the basis of number of reverts, number of pages reverted, whether any non-anon user has supported the alleged subvandal on the talk page of the article in question, etc. Peak 06:48, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[Soul_kitch] re:"makes enough people lose patience" - the convention in Western law and among most fields of psychology is that people are responsible for maintaining their own attitudes, including a patient attitude. Correctly, people don't make others lose patience. Instead, people through intent or neglect establish tolerances, and when those tolerances are exceeded, they often attribute blame to an outside cause rather than to an internal standard. Alleged offenses against an individual's patience are quite different from specific offenses against a well-described standard for behavior.Soul kitch 16:13, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Should a sysop refrain from using protection or blocking against even notoriously, obstinately antisocial and uncompromising users on any page that the sysop has ever edited or on any page, the wording of which that sysop is fond?

Note: Yes or No votes by sysops should not be interpreted as expressing an unwillingness to comply with either of the two possible outcomes of the poll.

Yes

mav
RickK (note that I do not consider pages that the sysop has reverted because of previous vandalism as having been "edited" by the sysop)
Angela (but there ought to be a way of marking a particular editor as someone who the rule can be ignored for -ie any page can be protected against Lir whether you've edited that page or not)
Tuf-Kat (agree with both Rick and Angela's caveats)

No

168...

Depends

—Eloquence - depends on the actions of the individual. Vandalism by such users should be immediately punishable with a block or protection if necessary, regardless of sysop involvement on that page, and sysops should be allowed to make a call as to which edits are vandalism and which are not.
Jia ng - agree with Eloquence.

Abstain If you like, add your thoughts on where to draw the line

This is hopefully soon to be a non-issue. "Notoriously, obstinately antisocial and uncompromising users" should not be here. This problem is currently before the arbitration committee. - Hephaestos 01:38, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Vaguely agree with the "yes", but think current condition of "ever edited" is too strong. I do not think banning should be used either, and just protection. Jimbo has agreed to use banning himself for the next 3-5 days (or less!) left before the arbitration committee swings into action. --Delirium 04:07, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)
The "ever" wording is too strong, though I agree with the spirit of the "yes" vote. I haven't made up my mind whether I prefer a phrasing of "edited in the past couple of months", or "has had a dispute over". - snoyes 04:24, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Note: Popular support for "No" implies an affirmation of the following rule It's O.K. to use protection or blocking against notoriously, obstinately antisocial and uncompromising users even on pages that you have edited or may care about the wording of.

The Larger Issue

[Peak:] By focusing on the details of how to ban a specific user, we may be missing the more important issue, which is that Wikipedia's current policies actually encourage a certain type of subvandalism, and are thus extremely detrimental both to Wikipedia and many Wikipedians.

Specifically, I believe:

there should be explicit criteria for how disputes can be resolved in a timely manner by some kind of voting procedure that does NOT require unanimity; and
sysops should be expected to enforce such decisions, if necessary by banning a user if that user disrespects the decision.

If such procedures were clear, there would be a double benefit: firstly, many (and perhaps most) would-be subvandals would be deterred; and secondly, those who aren't deterred could be dealt with expeditiously.

There are many possible decision procedures that could be adopted (in particular, approval voting may be worth a close look), but I would like here to focus on the requirement that the overall decision procedure allow a previous decision to be revisited.

I would propose that if N people have participated in a decision (where N>2), then it would require N/2 (rounded up) different non-anonymous individuals to call for the previous decision to be revisited.

So, for example, if there is a decision made as the result of the participation of three individuals, then two others would have to request the decision to be revisited. Peak 07:45, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ahem. I question the wisdom of voting on the merits of my own "words of wisdom" (as 168 put it). But clearly the debate focuses on what troublesome actions are and also on what our community should do to curb them. Although I think I am better informed about theory I bow to Jimbo's superior experience. --Uncle Ed 15:05, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Arbitrary protection of pages

168... is creating a series of odd pages without discussion and with odd titles, and protecting them without comment. Arbitrary protection of pages that were created and edited by a single user is an abuse of admin privileges. RickK 03:26, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This is a really sad result. I am not accusing you of your intention. You have a point. Meta-pages are rather in chaos. Something needs to be done. But I don't think the way you are doing is right. First, discuss then implement the resulting schemes agreed. Otherwise, they look vanalizing wikipedia to some people like me. -- Taku 03:31, Feb 8, 2004 (UTC)