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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 91.125.251.9 (talk) at 10:58, 7 October 2008 (→Any chance of a reply to my query about the Day Joyce Sheet?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Query

Criterion 5 is Non-free content meets general Wikipedia content requirements and is encyclopedic. To what "general Wikipedia content requirements" is this referring? Does it mean "content standards" as implicitly defined by the header in the {{Policy list}}, or is it kind of just "puff" verbiage essential redundant to "is encyclopedic"? Эlcobbola talk 16:15, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first. An image can't be used in an attempt to bypass any other policy- you can't simply say "don't say I'm breaking NPOV/NPA/RS/OR/ALPHABETSOUP, as this is an image, not text". Or that's what I've always took it to mean. J Milburn (talk) 16:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does it make sense, then, to tweak the criterion wording from requirements to standards for consistency? Эlcobbola talk 16:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would have no problem with this, though I would wait for some more thoughts on the matter before going ahead with this. It's possible I've misinterpreted this rarely mentioned criterion. J Milburn (talk) 16:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I implemented the change as no additional input has been forthcoming. If it's reverted, we can, of course, discuss further. Эlcobbola talk 16:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Non-free" is poor English

Can someone suggest an alternative? "Non-free" and "unfree" are terrible English, and straight out of the novel 1984 - literally! --MacRusgail (talk) 14:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction is between "free content" and "non-free content". That's the best phrasing to describe that distinction. --MASEM 14:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Images and other media that do not meet Wikipedia's definition of 'free content'" would be more accurate, but that's quite a mouthful. --Carnildo (talk) 06:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Non-free" is appalling English. And it's straight out of Orwell's Newspeak. Double plus ungood, in my book. There has to be a succinct, but accurate way of phrasing this.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcome to suggest one. This used to be called Wikipedia:Fair use, but we switched away from that in a effort to clarify that we meant something different (and stricter) than fair use when communicating what copyright restricted content would be allowed on Wikipedia. Dragons flight (talk) 16:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I find nothing at all wrong with "non-free". Tony (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Non-free is bad english, for the sake of it I will put "freedom images" out there. Freedom has lots of different definitions as seen here I think it works.--Theoneintraining (talk) 12:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't work. We use "free content" as that extends specifically from WP's mission: "develop educational content under a free license". This is "free" as in "free thought", and well understood to mean content that does not tie the work down with restrictive IP issues. There is no clean alternative for content that is not free. Again, as I noted, the opposites we're using are not "free" and "non-free", but "free content" and non-"free content". --MASEM 12:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"unencumbered"? Cheers.--«JavierMC»|Talk 09:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Non-free may be bad English but unfree certainly isn't; in the sense of "not at liberty to do something" the Oxford English Dictionary traces it back to 1380. I too find nothing wrong with non-free but perhaps the quibblers could be satisfied by "non-free-content." --Johnhk91.125.37.129 (talk) 14:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Film and animation cells

What is the stance on the scans of cells in these mediums? I've been told that they don't constute as a screenshot. But I don't see the difference between a cell and a freezeframe of that idenical scene in the finished product. Sarujo (talk) 01:14, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Each cell can probably be considered a seperate work, and while the copyright owner is generaly ultimately the same (whoever is paying the artist) this raise some complications such as was the cell ever actualy published? It's my understanding that while cells are often sold, auctioned off or given as prizes and such this is not actualy considered publication even though the cell is incorporated in the final published movie. Unpublished works are "icky" copyright wise since it's very limited what you can do under fair use if something was never published by the owner. If a screencap would server the same purpose it's much better to just use that. --Sherool (talk) 07:16, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm referring is cells from the Dragon Ball franchise like this, this, this, and this. I wanted to use the last one for the Bulma article. As I felt it was a more professional depiction of the character at that frame of time that was not derivative work. The two images currently used in the article are also animation cells dressed up to appear as screenshots. There are, as I know of, a few more articles that use these types of images. But there could be others.
Your stating that these cell have no copyright status. But as I recall, copyright law clearly states that any kind depiction of a licensed character whether it be a cell, toy, plush, screenshot, or unauthorized fan art is by default property of the copyright holders. So regardless of who's in possession of the cell the ownership is still the copyright holders, which in this case is Bird Studios/Shueisha and Toei Animation. Like the Bugs Bunny short Falling Hare, that is in the public domain. But it still copyrighted as it is a feature of Bugs Bunny a character copyrighted under Warner Bros. Pirated video games of popular characters also still fall under the character's copyright holder despite being an unauthorized production. The same can be said about dōjinshi comics who were not authorized by their holders, nor get published.
As I also remember that the unauthorized Beast Wars guild book in chapters discussing the two Japanese animated Beast Wars series use original film cells scans instead of screenshots. Which I think they called them cells that had been auction off. Sarujo (talk) 21:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So I'm to take it that no one's going to respond to my statments up here? Sarujo (talk) 19:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The cells will still be copyrighted yes, but the problem is that Wikipedia's non-free content policy require that any non-free material we use have been previously published by the copyright holder (and not merely scanned and uploaded by some 3. party who happened to get their hands on them though whatever means). If the subject of an article is some kind of notable work that is itself a unauthorized derivative of some kind we could probably agree that a minor exception is in order to illustrate the subject, but in this case there is no shortage of officialy published images of the characters in question so better to use that even if you think they don't look quite as good. --Sherool (talk) 20:34, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bot to enforce this policy?

Is there a bot to enforce this policy by removing images from articles that aren't listed in valid fair-use rationales? On a related note, do we have any mechanisms for finding images that have excessive numbers of {{Non-free use rationale}} or {{Non-free image rationale}} transclusions? (And how many articles is "excessive", anyway?) — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:50, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • We *did* have user:BetacommandBot, but due to some Arbitration case, it had to be shut down. User:BJBot does the first job though. ViperSnake151 20:52, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't believe there is any limit on the number of times that an image can be used non-freely in articles, with only the situation that each use must be given its own separate rationale. That said, I can't see any possible image having much more than 3 to 4 different uses where each use is justifiably required, simply because I can't see a picture representing a topic per NFCC#8 - significance that many times over. --MASEM 21:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It would be useful to be able to see a list of images that appear in more than a few articles. Generally, if it appears in more than three or four articles, at least one of them is going to be under a poor claim of fair use. Recent examples I've seen have included copy-paste rationales, which tell us nothing about why the image is being used, just claiming that its use "increases the reader's understanding of the subject". This is obviously useless, and completely defeats the point of having a fair use rationale in the first place. It would also be nice if someone else experienced with bots did the decent thing and wrote another one that will do what BCB used to do- there is no logical reason not to have a bot to remove non-compliant images. J Milburn (talk) 21:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • (ec) I have started a thread at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions#Excessive use of sport team logos, where I am concerned that some logo images are being used on several dozen articles each, with potential for over a hundred instances (when all per-season articles for all sports are written). — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If anything, logos shouldn't need a rationale because they have the same use in every article they're used in, to identify the/a subject of an article with a image recognizable as being associated with the subject. I propose an overhaul to {{Non-free logo}}, to not require a fair use rationale for use in the article of its subject.

This could take a load off though. ViperSnake151 22:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good idea, if logos can truly be used on dozens of pages for identification purposes. Take a look at Image:Ohio State buckeyes logo.png, which already has an unwieldy list of FU rationales, and is actually used on about 4× that number of articles. I would like to see a formal blessing (or not) of the usage on individual per-season articles before the other hundred past seasons are created... — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As a partial answer to the original question: there's now FairuseBot (talk · contribs), run by Carnildo, which does a few such things. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:40, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Last I checked we where writing an ensyclopedia here, not a sports almanac. IMHO we should not have seperate articles about individual seasons unless something truly notable happened there that somehow doesn't fit in the article about the club itself. If people absolutely need to create tables of results at least make it one big list or something instead of dozens of articles with just a small table and maybe some unsourced "blow by blow" commentary on individual games. That way fewer articles = less FUR's to write. --Sherool (talk) 00:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Wikipedia:Five pillars states that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia incorporating elements of general encyclopedias, specialized encyclopedias, and almanacs. There are tens of thousands of pages that fall into that category. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well yeah we can incorporate material from almanacs, but we are not making one. Also per WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE articles made up entierly of statistics is discouraged. If we absolutely need to republish all manner of sports results I think one big "results" list per division/league or whatever would be quite sufficient. Whatever supplementary information there is about controversies, performances and such should be merged into the main club or athlete articles instead (if actualy notable). --Sherool (talk) 12:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not the individual season articles themselves are appropriate or not, I would say that the use of the logo on them is almost purely decorative (and therefore not permitted under the non-free content policy). The policy basically allows us to use the logo to let our readers know what it looks like — no more and no less. In this case, no-one interested in finding out what the logo looks like is going to go to those articles to look for it; they'll expect to find it in the main team article, if anywhere. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 15:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. A logo is generally appropriate only in the article on the subject it represents (even then, not always) or anywhere the logo itself is discussed. The use of logos in [organisation] in [year] articles is not appropriate, unless the logo itself is discussed (perhaps it was changed that year, and the article has a section discussing the logo change). J Milburn (talk) 16:12, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Those were my thoughts, and I'm happy to see some affirmation of that in this discussion thread. I shall drop a note at WP:WikiProject College football to notify those editors. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Day Joyce Sheet

I am confused about the status of this photo, Image:Day Joyce Sheet- 1.jpg, which appears in the above article. If I click on the "enlarge" icon that appears below it I get to a larger image and the non-free use rationale that I have submitted. It would appear that the rationale has been accepted, since the image still appears in the article. I accept that this larger image cannot be used in the article. If I add a non-free fair use tag will that be sufficient to satisfy Wikipedia requirements? 91.125.56.84 (talk) 11:01, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Six days since I posted this and no reply. Am I in the wrong place? 91.125.166.199 (talk) 14:10, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your question was not clear, and it is still not clear. The image is at Image:Day Joyce Sheet- 1.jpg, and a thumbnail of it appears in The Day Joyce Sheet (as it should be). If a reader wants to enlargen the image that appears in the article, he has to click on the image (as it should be, and this works). Making the image itself appear bigger in the article is usually discouraged because readers have different screen resolutions. If you still want to make it bigger, use the parameter "300px" (or whatever) in the article. All that the license and the fairuse rationale do is that the image can be hosted at wikipedia, and has nothing to do with the appearance of the image in the article. – sgeureka t•c 14:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that the image is still in the article does not necessarily mean that the use rationale has been “accepted.” It could equally mean that nobody has particularly considered it. I see at least two issues with the rationale:
  • The rationale does not address replaceability. Could someone go to the museum and take a free photo of the sheet? If so, we are not supposed to use a non-free photo of it.
  • The resolution is too high: The width in the article is 260 × 309 px; this is not a problem. The preview on the image page is 504 × 599 px; this too is not the issue I am raising. But if you click on the preview or the “Full resolution” link under it, the full size of the image is 1,661 × 1,974 px. This full resolution is way too large for a non-free image. The rule of thumb for non-free image is a width of no more than 300 px. Because of the detail of the sheet, a somewhat higher resolution might be allowed for this image—but certainly not 1,661 × 1,974 px.
—teb728 t c 20:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replaceability: The Sheet is not on public display but can be seen by prior appointment. It is kept rolled up: to display it for visitors it is spread it out horizontally on the tops of tables. (Because of its size, 2.5m x 2m, and fragility they won't hang it on a wall.) To photograph it in this position would need professional resources and would be too costly for me. Even if the museum agreed to it I don't know what the copyright position would be. (I have added this paragraph to the rationale.)

Full resolution: I had not realised that the photo could be enlarged to 1,661 × 1,974 px. How can this be prevented? And if it is, will the rationale be accepted? How will I know if it has been accepted, or will it always be open to challenge? 91.125.171.232 (talk) 15:22, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Use of copyrighted information

Is there any guidance on use of copyrighted information that has become public knowledge? For instance, the names and order of tracks on Abbey Road is presumably copyrighted, but we include it. The fact that West Palm Beach and Miami are in the same "media market" is copyrighted by Nielsen Media Research, but has led to the two cities sharing local news channels. How much can we talk about that? --NE2 11:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pure information can not be copyrighted, full stop. Only creative works are subject to copyright. --Sherool (talk) 12:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Beatles' choice of song names and ordering, and Nielsen's grouping of cities, are both creative. --NE2 12:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Probably not the best place to discuss the whole Nielsen thing. Regarding "The Beatles" I imagine it would fall under a fairly safe claim of legal fair use, since while it is the title of a work, we are using it to identify and comment on the work in question, and the economic impact on the work is nil. Any judge in their right mind would issue summary judgment in the "fairusers" favor. TBH - I think you'd probably stand a good chance of winning a copyright infringement civil case against Nielson under a claim of either fair use, or that the work in question in ineligible for copyright under US law. But then - do you have the time, and tens of thousands of dollars to spend on legal fees needed to fight that case ? Did somebody turn on the AC ? I feel chilled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megapixie (talk • contribs)
I think this is the right place to discuss it, as far as making a more general guideline as to where the line is. (By the way, Nielsen apparently only complained about "the list of markets in the United States by Neilsen rank on the original article"; we still don't know why Cyde deleted a lot more.) --NE2 14:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Titles can't be copyrighted. --Carnildo (talk) 20:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not even the full title of When the Pawn? :) --NE2 20:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As a title, no, it can't be copyrighted. --Carnildo (talk) 00:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure your correct about that. Titles are usually ineligible, but poems are usually eligible for copyright. Since the "title" of When the Pawn... is also an ~80 word poem, I'm not sure which is controlling. In general, I believe the exemption is meant to target short phrases, rather than titles per se. If that's true, then the poem/title of When the Pawn... could be eligible. Dragons flight (talk) 00:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sherool is correct regarding the Beatles track listing: sure, the names of the songs are creative, and the ordering of the songs in an album was a creative choice. But that doesn't change the fact that a track listing of album is pure fact and not protected by copyright. It's like a list of ingredients on a soda can. Crypticfirefly (talk) 01:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

peacekeeper?

Before I wind up instigating an edit war with another editor, can somebody take a look at Adair Tishler for me? She's a actress and plays the fictional Molly Walker, whose copyrighted image spshu (talk · contribs) continues to insert into the actress' article despite my explanation and pointing him to WP:NFCC#1. While I'm pretty certain of my interpretation and consensus, I'm not infallible (yet). — pd_THOR | =/\= | 19:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Previous versions

I noticed that the non-free image Image:Raven.png has previous versions (also non-free), as previous versions they are not used in any articles but are still stored on Wikipedia and displayed on the image page. One of them is of a completely different subject which was uploaded over the original (which was then reverted). Can the page history be selectively deleted? Guest9999 (talk) 20:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes image revisoins can be selectively deleted, just did so. Don't think multiple identical revisions are rely a problem but got rid of the other one mixed in there. --Sherool (talk) 15:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Day Joyce Sheet: Am I in the wrong place?

I posted a question about a photo in The Day Joyce Sheet article on 23 September but have had no reply. If it's not something you can deal with, please advise whom I should try. 91.125.166.199 (talk) 14:16, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See #The Day Joyce Sheet. – sgeureka t•c 14:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use video

One thing I see very little of is fair use videos. Videos are very useful and show something a static, silent picture seldom can't. For so many articles, a fair use video would be appropriate (just as logos etc are going to have to be fair use, so are scenes from films etc). Why do we have so few then? If we are not supposed to be worrying about performance, shouldn't there be more? Is it just that few people have gone to the effort? Richard001 (talk) 08:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since the inclusion of one frame of a non-free video (i.e. a non-free image/screenshot) is frequently disputed, you can guess why non-free videos have an even more difficlut time to pass the NFCC ("what can a full video show that one image can't"). – sgeureka t•c 10:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely, there are very few cases where a video would be warranted. If a single image is not appropriate, possibly an extract from a script or a few frames (3 or 4) as a GIF animation would be better. Think about the justification that you need for a single image- for a video, you would effectively need to justify the inclusion of every single frame. J Milburn (talk) 17:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's clear that images are static, which makes them far less useful than video. Think about what you are writing here. Why don't you say 'why do they bother making films? A slide show with a script would be just as good'. You can't capture much of an impression of what a film, television program, game etc is like with just a static picture, and a brief piece of footage should qualify for fair use just as an image of a painting or audio clip of a song does. To me it is more a question of performance. Richard001 (talk) 21:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although the following is a crude example, please compare your reasoning to the statement that stealing $100 is more useful than stealing $1 - true but nearly irrelevant when there is a behavioural code (in wikipedia's case its m:mission to be free). – sgeureka t•c 22:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consider "stealing" 30 seconds of a Beetles song. Shouldn't we just "steal" one second (ideally less) of the song? Sure, it will be useless for the purpose it is supposed to serve, but we'll all feel much better about ourselves morally, no?

The point is that video is a different format to images or audio. It usually involves both, but has properties that make it unique. There are many things that you just can't adequately convey with words or still images, and I think if anyone thinks seriously about this they will come to the realization that what I'm saying is correct. Richard001 (talk) 08:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is non-free allowed in Userboxes

Are non-free images allowed in Userboxes when they are not being used in any articles? Or does this consitute deletion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spitfire19 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They cannot be used outside article space, period. (Unless they are Wikipedia logos.) --NE2 17:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If they aren't being used in articles, they will be deleted anyway. Richard001 (talk) 22:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Got Milk?

I'd like comments on this edit. I was about to go try to get the licenses straightened out on all those images, but came to the conclusion that they failed non-free content guidelines, anyway.—Kww(talk) 03:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{Filmr}}

Filmr was recently fixed so that sources would show if they contained a equals sign in them, but this isn't retro active on articles that had the issues before. It was caused by the numbered phasers not liking anything that contained an equals symbol. This fix shouldn't of broken anything (but please revert if it does). For example {{Filmr|The Grateful Dead Movie|http://www.amazon.com/Grateful-Dead-Movie-Jerry-Garcia/dp/B0002VETEK/ref=sr_1_1}} (See) won't show a source where as {{Filmr|article=The Grateful Dead Movie |source=http://www.amazon.com/Grateful-Dead-Movie-Jerry-Garcia/dp/B0002VETEK/ref=sr_1_1}} (See) should. Peachey88 (Talk Page | Contribs) 08:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any chance of a reply to my query about the Day Joyce Sheet?

My original query was answered but next one of 1st October has not had a reply. 91.125.251.9 (talk) 10:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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