Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive5

Proposals, July 2005

{{hre-stub}} or {{germany-hist-stub}}

Been doing a lot of articles on the states in the Holy Roman Empire (800 - 1806AD), which was centred in Germany, but also contained parts of many other European countries. Concerns though were raised about the volume of stubs I've created related to this era of history, as the only relevant stub existing is the hist-stub. --Nomadic1

I'd actually considered germany-hist-stub - it would make a lot of sense and would be well populated. Hre-stub (or better HRE-stub) would probably be a bit too cryptic for most people. Grutness...wha? 3 July 2005 06:21 (UTC)

I would agree in principle with {{germany-hist-stub}}, but there isn't really a consensus concerning the use of germany in historic terms (see Talk:Germany) Lectonar 4 July 2005 12:35 (UTC)

Perhaps not Germany, but since there were Kings of the Germans back in the Middle Ages, one could simply title the stub – {{german-hist-stub}} and be done with it. --Joy [shallot] 8 July 2005 09:22 (UTC)

Perhaps, but these stubs need a sub-category. Germany as a region has existed since 843AD. There is really only complication in where places such as Austria and Silesia fit, and these would be more logical to place in the general History stub. The alternative of course is a general "European History" stub, see below for that. : Nomadic1 6 July 2005 08:45 (UTC)

I'm absolutely on your side here, but I fear that we're gonna run into trouble especially if we start to stub sort events or persons which other users feel to be, e.g., polish et al.; there are people around who would allow the term Germany to be used only after 1945, or, in extreme cases, after 1989 Lectonar 6 July 2005 09:30 (UTC)

It's only going to get worse - soon. I've already got plans to heavily populate Salm (probably about 20 - 30 stubs here), Isenburg (another 10 or so), Baden (10), Württemberg (10), and am about to begin a co-ordination on Furstenberg (which will almost definately contain considerably more). I don't think the hist-stub or even a euro-hist-stub would do well with all of these emerging in the near-future. Of course, the concerns you have also apply with most European countries: they'd be objection to a French history stub because the Bretons, Basques, and Catalonians wouldn't like it. You couldn't do an Italy history stub due to the Ladin and Germanic regions of Trentino-Alto Adige, and it emerged in 1860 or thereabouts. A line needs to be drawn somewhere. - Nomadic1 7 July 2005 09:31 (UTC)

To that I can only add: Germany as it was in 1071: Naples must stay german! :) Lectonar 7 July 2005 10:02 (UTC)

The obvious, but almost certainly unacceptable answer, is to use modern boundaries (we don't give people born in Normandy in the 1100s the same stub we give English people), but - as I said - that would almost certainly be unacceptable. There mst be some way round it, but what? Grutness...wha? 7 July 2005 11:44 (UTC)

I don't think this is much more of a problem than it is already a problem with categorization. Perhaps an example can illustrate - for quite some time the page Dinaric Alps had one country geo-stub and one general geo-stub for all the other countries the mountains were in. Later, all of those countries got their own geo-stubs and all of them (half a dozen :) were added to the article. This was somewhat ugly, but worked. (And then later the article was expanded and is not a stub any more. Yay :) --Joy [shallot]

One solution to this could be to use either time-periods (e.g. {{Medieval-hist-stub}}), which could also help solve the problems with the nobility-stub [here:{{Ancient-hist-stub}}, in which cases one should define the appropriate time-periods, or something to the effect of regions (e.g. {{CentralEurope-hist-stub}} Lectonar 7 July 2005 13:01 (UTC)

Time periods could work, but then they couldn't for anything which lasted from the Mediæval era until the Napoleonic Era. The use of Geographical regions is also difficult by the same token as above, since, for example, Central Europe includes Austria, Hungary, Germany, etc. but also includes Transylvania (which Romanians wouldn't like), Friuli and Trieste in Italy, and so forth. A HRE-stub becomes the best possibility then (as it ignores modern borders and nationalism), although the idea of the Holy Roman Empire is quite convoluted and complex, and most people would not understand it. But it is still the best. - Nomadic1 7 July 2005 22:26 (UTC)

So, about that then. Do we agree on {{german-hist-stub}}? I see no objections. --Joy [shallot] 22:29, 24 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

{{rail-accident-stub}} and {{US-railroad-stub}}

I've been going through Category:Rail stubs this week sorting as appropriate into subcategories (mostly into {{UK-depot-stub}}, but some into {{US-depot-stub}} and others into {{loco-stub}}). I've sorted pages up through the end of N as such. Looking through those that are left from A to N, the two categories that stand out most to me are articles about railroad accidents worldwide and articles about specific railroad companies in the US. Normally I would be bold and just create these two stub types, but I didn't want to step on any toes. slambo 11:04, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

{{US-rail-stub}} would fit the naming conventions (I thought it existed, actually...). Rail accidents would get both that and US-hist-stub. Grutness...wha? 11:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I can see the bit on the naming convention for US-rail-stub, but I don't quite get your second comment. There are quite a few articles about railroad accidents outside the US such as Ghotki rail crash (Pakistan) and Al Ayyat train disaster (Egypt), so making rail-accident-stub a subcategory of US-hist-stub doesn't seem logical. slambo 11:37, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

My comment was simply where they should currently go, not a comment on whether a new stub category was necessary. And it was my fault for assuming that because you were talking about US railroads you were also talking about rail accidents in the US - of course if it was a disaster in, say Egypt, you'd currently use Africa-hist-stub. Perhaps a more general transport disaster stub of some kind would be better, though, covering everything from Quintinshill to Lockerbie (actually, that's only two miles, so it would need to cover more than that). Grutness...wha? 10:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just created {{US-rail-stub}} and Category:US rail stubs, now sorting from {{rail-stub}} into it... slambo 14:55, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

There are now 249 articles tagged with {{US-rail-stub}}. Creating {{UK-rail stub}} would probably cut the remaining 711 {{rail-stub}} articles by about the same amount or more. There are also a large number of articles about Japanese and Indian railroad subjects, but I haven't counted them yet. BTW, Category:Rail stubs has a notice on it about the category's size; what is the threshhold for that message? I think rail stubs is still quite large, but if it's knocked down to 2/3 or 1/2 of its current size, when doe we remove that notice? slambo 18:09, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Elsewhere on this page I've gone on record for splitting off {{UK-rail stub}}; I think that we can go forward in another day or two if there are no further objections or comments. --CComMack 14:26, 11 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Religion stubs

Category:Religion stubs

4 pages, some churches/cathedrals, some denominations.

Category:Catholic-related stubs

3 pages, many of them churches/cathedrals.

Category:Christianity-related stubs

4 pages, some churches, some denominations.

For the moment, a category for protestant churches (the buildings, and the congregations that go with them), and parallel ones for RC parish churches and cathedrals would be helpful.

There are already Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran subcategories, which will bring pressure to add additional such denominational subcats. For the moment, adding Category:Protestant denominations would also be helpful. --FourthAve 19:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Are you aware that this page is not about general categories, but stubs? If there are sufficient stub articles then it shouldn't be a problem creating something along the lines of {{protestant-stub}} and Category:Protestant stubs. Are there sufficient numbers? --TheParanoidOne 19:49, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is what I had in mind. There are a lot of Catholic parish churches here, perhaps as many as 100, probably somewhat fewer, but they certainly do come along. These articles tend to be very short. For the moment, a protestant denomination stub would be useful too (it would not get that big). I'm just trying to be helpful. While nowhere near as bad as the Great Dismal Swamp that is biostub, it's slowly getting there. --FourthAve 20:45, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mmm. Many olf the religions involved dislike the term protestant, but I understand your point. It might be useful, assuming there were enough stubs. Grutness...wha? 08:07, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Papal stubs basically dupes Category:Popes. I wonder if antipopes should be moved out too. This category contains nothing relating to the popes other than pope bios covered in Popes. Aggh. --FourthAve 21:30, 28 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I wonder if you are misunderstanding the difference in purpose between stub categories and standard categories. If all the articles in Category:Popes are also in Category:Papal stubs, it simply means that all the articles need expansion. as they are expanded, they will be removed from the stub category but remain in the main category. This allows editors to find articles on popes that need expansion. Grutness...wha? 07:57, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: for the up above: wouldn't churches have to go in one of the available {{struct-stub}}s ?Lectonar 06:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. There are a lot of them in the various struct-stub categories. Having separate {{church-stub}}, {{UK-church-stub}}, {{US-church-stub}}, {{Euro-church-stub}}, {{Asia-church-stub}} (or perhaps {{XX-reli-struct-stub}} in each case?) would be very usefu, as it would significantly reduce the equivalent struct-stub categories. Those can feed into reli-stub and struct-stub as parent categories. Since many smaller churches are multidenominational and information on individual churches will be as much (if not more) about the structure as the use of the structure, it makes little sense to link them to individula denominations. Grutness...wha? 07:57, 29 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]