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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Uiteoi (talk | contribs) at 17:34, 9 October 2008 (Internet medias are also valid sources of information.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Zeitgeist: Addendum

Zeitgeist: Addendum (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Delete This article is about the sequel to Zeitgeist, the Movie, but does not inhert notability from it. This article fails to demonstrate notability through multiple reliable sources. It is somewhat telling that this article only uses the movie itself as a source, and thus cannot be neutral. --Phirazo (talk) 12:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep and Improve - The film has just been released, we could wait for some reliable source to post a review and improve the article. I would not recommend a merge, due to the major differences in content of the two films. Let's improve it and find reliable sources as it goes on, it's already drawn significant attention among the blogosphere, let's see if the mainstream media respond. 4v4l0n42 (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and Improve: The movie is a sequel of Zeitgeist, the Movie. The notability of this new movie is established by its presentation at the Artivists Film Festival where the movie was "attended by a sold-out audience of 600 people" and after it won an award at this festival. This movie is not a fiction and not exactly an unbiased documentary either as it represents a point of view that could be considered an essay#Film. Rather than merging this article with the first movie, I would recommend to improve this article and limit the extent of the description of this new movie in the first title. A main difference with the first movie is the large representation of The Venus Project as a proposed solution. uiteoi (talk) 17:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and Improve: Notability is a matter of time regarding brand new objects/events. By observing the fast growing notability of the Addendunm one can easely project that its notability will surpass the Wikipedia required notability, it actually probably already surpass it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JeanHuguesRobert (talk • contribs) This template must be substituted.
  • Keep and Improve: The movie is famed. It very well deserves its own article. It's a very new release, however, so of course it doesn't have massive amounts of readily disposable information. Give it a little time and allow information to be gathered, and it should expand to the size of the original Zeitgeist article. If anything, I think it should be marked as a stub. There is plenty of information to be included in this article that just hasn't been typed up yet. GAMEchief (talk) 18:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Zeitgeist the Movie per WP:NNC If it had "its own notability" or "is famed [sic]" then it should have reliable secondary sources, which the article does not. I'm going to skip a search for them because so many people have already voted keep that I presume that they would have taken the time to add any extant sources; as is, I see at most one reliable, independent source. Jclemens (talk) 18:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Free online film shown at minor festival lacks demonstrated multiple reliable and independent sources with substantial coverage needed to establish notability. Notability is not inherited from the previous film. Edison (talk) 18:45, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Zeitgeist the Movie, which only BARELY meets notability requirements due to a SINGLE third-party mention of note. This particular incarnation has nothing supporting it and until such time as it's released, you can track it's so called "information gathering status" at the main article. -- Logical Premise Ergo? 19:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notability Assertion: Google search for "zeitgeist addendum" Shows 92,900 results. Among them: Digg score 2718 and 875 comments; numerous blogs such as Dogmatic; Technorati indicating 83 blog reactions including one blog with an authority score 133 Web TV Hub. I believe that this quick search shows that this movie is already very notable in cyberspace and therefore cannot be rejected on the basis of the lack of notability. Out of Cyberspace, the film has received the award of "Artivist Spirit Award - Best Feature" from the Artivist Film Festival which, BTW, does deserve a Wikipedia page of its own (i.e. not as minor as claimed above) as noted by the LA Times, LA Weekly and multiple organizations such as the United Nations. I also do not see the point of trying to improve an article while under the threat of deletion and will not edit the article myself although I believe that the article could be very much improved and that I watched the movie twice. Although I disagree with some conclusions of the movie, this is irrelevant as far as notability is concerned and I therefore vote to Keep the article. uiteoi (talk) 21:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1. The Google test isn't useful for demonstrating notability. The number of results is an estimate, not a real number. 2. "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (Wikipedia:Verifiability). Digg is infamous for inaccurate articles being "dugg", and blogs are usually inappropriate for inclusion in an article. Mere existence of a source is not enough, the source has to be usuable. 3. Even if the "Artivist Spirit Award" is notable, notability is not inherited from it. --Phirazo (talk) 02:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Digg is famous for evaluating the notability of blog articles. Likewise the reference by numerous (83) blogs is also notable, and Technorati is a recognized place to judge the notability of blogs using their authority ranking system. The Google ranking system is also notable and generates billions of dollars in revenues. All these arguments are just 'the Internet is irrelevant'-arguments and are the same arguments used by many opponents of Wikipedia. uiteoi (talk) 19:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Notability does not equate reliability. But regardless, "It is ranked <big number here> on <website here>" is not a good general argument for either. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment To editors voting "Keep and Improve" - show me a source that demonstrates notability. Not a Google search, not a blog, a real reliable source. I've been to plenty of shows that aren't "Wikipedia notable" that were sold out and sat many more than 600. --Phirazo (talk) 02:48, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete This is a conspiracy documentary that is not notable in and of itself, and the majority of the above comments have occurred due to the faithful adherents of the film posting on online message boards for everyone to come to wikipedia and stop the nomination. LowLevelMason (talk) 23:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand some people like to have a clean and neat wikipedia, but can articles also atleast get a chance to aquire sources for notability, this article is less then a week old and already marked for deletion. That sounds absurd to me. Webmind (talk) 08:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that the content of this movie is a conspiracy theory, and I believe they are wrong in their analysis, but this is not the point. The point is about notability. The movie is notable after receiving an award from an independent film festival, period. We need a balanced article to possibly explain why the movie is wrong by providing counter arguments to the content of the movie. We cannot do this if the article is deleted. uiteoi (talk) 17:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the number of comments limited by policy? When multiple arguments are made, this requires multiple answers. This is a discussion and in a discussion one is allowed to talk as many times as deemed appropriate until the debate is called off. In the case of this movie notability has been largely asserted by multiple reliable sources. The possible remaining questions would be merge or keep. uiteoi (talk) 20:21, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and Improve Given the high popularity of the previous title, it is just a matter of time spotlighted by notable media. Oh, by the way Digg aleady gave some interests already. 66.117.137.91 (talk) This template must be substituted.
ARTIVIST is a 501c3 non profit organization endorsed by the UNITED NATIONS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC INFORMATION and the INTERNATIONAL NOBEL PRIZE. www.artivists.org at bottom of index page
Notability is not inherited. Besides, there are 1664 NGOs associated with the UN DPI/NGO. It doesn't seem that hard to partner with the UN [1]. The association with the Nobel Prize is that they got Claes Nobel to show up and accept an award. He isn't on the Norwegian Nobel Committee, he is the great grandnephew of Alfred Nobel. --Phirazo (talk) 18:30, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and redirect It would make sense to have something that calls itself an "addendum" on the original page, especially when it lacks its own notability and largely shares its predecessors message and identity. Elithrion (talk) 19:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and redirect since keep and improve cannot work due to the nonexistance of reliable sources (i.e. "improve with what?"). – sgeureka t•c 20:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete non-notable film. We should not "wait for sources", without sources the article should never have been written, as it is therefore orginial research. Redirect to section of first movie.Yobmod (talk) 11:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Asnwer: Deltionism is dogma and as such is biased. Phirazo is asking for straight deletion, not merge and redirect which would have been more appropriate. Asking people to edit an article while under the threat of deletion is like asking people to contribute for nothing. I am opposed to the merge because I believe that each movie should have its own independent article even when it is from the same author(s). Furthermore this new movie has acquired its own notability through an award and the subject is very different from the first movie. As much as the first movie was a 9/11 conspiracy theory, the second movie contains a proposal for a new system not relying on the banking system. Deleting this article is akin of asking the deletion of articles regarding 9/11 conspiracy theories. We need these articles to help readers understand that conspiracy theories have answers. uiteoi (talk) 19:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The closing admin will settle the !vote by policy. If there's a good and reasonable merge target, deletion is a deprecated option. I'm not a deletionist either, but I've found that they have a valuable insight into keeping Wikipedia encyclopedic, and since they force me to think in those terms, deletionists make me a better editor. Jclemens (talk) 19:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Answer. The new movie is so different than the first that I think a merge is not appropriate. One major difference is that the first movie is by all means a conspiracy theory while the new movie is much more subtle and addresses a problem with a solution with The Venus Project. Comparing both articles really shows how different and independent these movies are. I would like to see criticism of the article content in order to provide a balanced view of the movie rather than this request for deletion and now for a merge. uiteoi (talk) 20:07, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Answer: Out of the 83 blogs, and probably more by now, commenting on the movie, I would be surprised not to find a balanced view. Of course this assumes that the blogosphere is not irrelevant and can be reliable. Considering the blogosphere irrelevant or considering it unreliable a-priori is a prejudice. uiteoi (talk) 20:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and merge The sourcing on this is pretty awful. IMdB and Google Video both prove that this exists and little else. The link to Artivist Film Festival proves that it was screened, but the Acton Institute reference doesn't even mention the film. Shouldn't there be some critical reaction? At the very least there should be references not intended to promote the film. Instead of arguing about the validity of the views expressed in the films, the keep !votes should be finding reputable, third party sources, something I note they have failed to do and I have been unsuccessful in locating myself. AniMate 22:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question for Phirazo: You main argument for the deletion of this article is flawed. You state: "It is somewhat telling that this article only uses the movie itself as a source, and thus cannot be neutral". Please take a look at the Loose Change (film). That references itself quite often. In fact, every article references itself at one point or another. IF ANYTHING, add a 'criticism' or 'controversy' section to make it non-biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.222.144.102 (talk) 00:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Are self-references allowed when it comes to certain types of media? Absolutely. Loose Change certainly references itself quite a bit, however this article only references itself and websites used to promote it. There aren't any third party references secondary sources. Find some, preferably not from a blog, and the article won't be in danger of deletion. Simple. AniMate 01:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Let's try this again. Third party/tertiary sources are encyclopedias and stating you needed to find them was a goof on my part. You actually need secondary sources, such as magazine articles or newspapers. Find reliable secondary sources that discuss the film, and you have a well referenced article. If you can't find any sources, then the film isn't suitable for Wikipedia. The theories and information contained in the film are absolutely irrelevant to this discussion. We're not here to discuss if the message of the film is right or wrong or well sourced. If this article is to be retained, you must find sources that discuss Zeitgeist: Addendum specifically. AniMate 03:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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