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Final History

Ok this is really starting to piss me off so im gonna fix this. First off is the NWA title match at Sacrifice. It WAS an NWA title match. Cage was announced as the NWA champion and brought the physical belt out with him. The TNA title was non existent at this time. Yes the NWA stripped Cage, but TNA had the rights to the belt until midnight. I even read that After the match Angle got to the back and handed an NWA official the title. o if anything this is an unffocial NWA title reign, NOT a TNA title reign. Seconf, on whether to include former NWA champions as TNA champions. NO. TNA said and even provided a link stating that the TNA title history started at Slammiversary. The only reason they call Sting and others "former TNA champions" is because they either cant use the NWA name anymore and.or because they want to better establish themselves. For us to do so would be changing history, and we cant do that. So the bottom line is that on June 17th,2007, Kurt Angle became the FIRST TNA champion. Please give this issue a rest.--71.139.22.30 (talk) 07:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that you said "TNA had the rights to the belt until midnight" just made your entire argument BS. Nowhere was it stated in the announcement made by the NWA that TNA had the rights to the titles until a specific time. The fact of the matter is that the NWA stripped Cage and 3D of their NWA titles on the morning of May 13 2007. Meaning that whether TNA liked it or not, Cage was their new World Heavyweight Champion at Sacrifice.-- bulletproof ^3:16 20:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good explanition but to make it better show us the TNA link that it staatred in slammiverary and that kurt angle gave back the unoficail NWA World Heavyweight Championship SocialistRevolution (talk) 14:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But...the video of Trobich officially stripping Cage and 3D of their NWA titles was put out about 9 hours before the PPV started... You have a huge hole in your argument. No one but dirtsheets claimed that TNA had control of the title booking until midnight, so no source really is going to work for this. Cage being stripped of NWA title before the show, and then being billed as Heavyweight champ later is enough to say that he was an unbranded World Champion(maybe the interim TNA world title). This argument is stupid, you have no sources, I know Cage was billed as NWA Champion by Jeremy Borash but the problem here is, it was only Borash. Angle was announced as being new Heavyweight Champion of the World, and Christian during his entrance, above his name on the screen only read "World Heavyweight Champion" with no mention of NWA or TNA. It could be considered that he was an unbranded World Champion, and pending in kayfabe the result of the match he could have been the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Borash could have made a mistake announcing at the beginning. Who knows, until TNA puts out their title history, no one will know. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 17:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The link died when TNA changed there website. Bullshit, theres no way in hell that it was a TNA title match at Sacrifice, if anything it was a Stand In world title match. History starts at Slammiversary.--71.139.35.216 (talk) 20:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. Yeah. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 23:33, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah, and that TNAWrestling account on here, more than likely isn't real. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 01:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Its not. -- bulletproof ^3:16 02:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

TNAWrestling was my account name before I was asked to change it by the Wikipedia staff.TNAFan80 (talk) 02:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand why, your old name made it sound like you worked for TNA. It's the same reason they don't want someone to have "Admin" or "Bot" in their username (or the name of a real person unless they can proof they are that person). TJ Spyke 02:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

how bout this? the NWA championship was outed earlier that day, then that match was for a vacant TNA World Championship like it was at Slammiversary. but, it was held up cause of a dusty finish in the same way the WHC was in 2004. end of storyJordan Morrison Payne 03:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. You don't get it. NWA stripped Cage earlier in the day. TNA continued to bill Cage as World Heavyweight Champion regardless, with Cage holding the NWA belt(refer to first point). You can't change history to fit your own views. What is done is done. Cage is unofficially your first TNA World Champ by default, Kurt Angle is unofficially your second TNA World Champ, then it goes on from there. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The match wasnt a NWA World Title match, earlier that day Christian Cage was stripped of his NWA World Title thus becoming the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Yes Christian was introduced as NWA World Champion and had the physical belt but he was not the NWA Champion and had not been for a couple of hours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.91.91.139 (talk) 22:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a little doubt that I have. I always assumed that when Angle won the world championship from christian (whatever that championship was) it was vacated and the victory revoked due to the controversial finish. So if it was revoked should Angle's reign, even if unofficial, coun't at all. I don't see Ted DiBiase's, Owen Hart's or Jericho's revoked reigns on the WWE championship's list of champions. If u agree that Christian's unofficial world championship reign should be listed on this page then the wiki standard should be followed and angle's reign shouldn't be listed. How Christian's reign ended should be written in his own reign. What do u guys think? Secretaria (talk) 23:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This was a point that I tried to make last year but yes, Angle's victory was reversed and declared a no contest. Cornette did sure as hell say plainly though, that no matter what the official result was, Christian sure did not win the match since he got pinned. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 16:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism?

Can someone familiar with the subject check these edits by a vandal IP? Thanks, delldot talk 19:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sting was only champion for two days

Wikipedia does not count TV days as champion, only real days. And in real days Sting was champion for 2 days. Not 11. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riseagainstowns (talk • contribs) 23:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New Page for List of Champions?

Now that we are recognizing the TNA-era NWA World Champions as being connected in lineage with the TNA World Champions, is it time to create a seperate page for the list of champions and list of reigns? We have decided to recognize these champions from June 19, 2002 to May 13, 2007 because TNAwrestling.com and TNA Wrestling officially recognizes these reigns as being connected with the history of the TNA World Heavyweight Title and TNA World Tag Team Titles respectfully. This is the same situation with the WWE United States Heavyweight Title in which WWE.com recognizes the WCW reigns and NWA reigns being connected as one with their United States Title. The World Heavyweight Title in TNA started on June 19, 2002 and has transformed from the sanctioning of the NWA to the severing of business relationship, to where the champions are now recognized single-handedly by TNA Wrestling without sanctioning. MC511 (talk) 19:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's only 15K, that's a more than manageable size. -- Scorpion⁰⁴²² 21:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When do we make the switch then? 70.68.56.48 (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, there's reason why the NWA and WCW parts of the US title are recognized up until the WWE branded US title...because they're all the same. The NWA and TNA World titles however aren't the same. There's no problem in showing the history of World Titles in TNA on this page, but the NWA and TNA titles from June 2002 til now are not the same title. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I know. The history of World Heavyweight Champions in TNA were once sanctioned by the NWA, but they no longer are now since the NWA recognizes their own World Heavyweight Champion once again. MC511 (talk) 06:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know your ideas that your pushing for how this page should read are revisionism, correct? Revisionism is recognized as unofficial here in regards to titles. TNA doesn't say shit about NWA "sanctioning" on that title history page. You're pushing this stupid idea that the TNA Heavyweight Title has existed for almost 6 years now, just it was called the NWA title. That's not what happened. TNA leased out the NWA Heavyweight and Tag Team Titles to give credibility to their company. They aren't the same titles as the NWA ones. Revisionism view is what TNA claims is the title's complete history from 02-current. It isn't true. Just like WWE says that Backlund had a continuous reign at one point that he didn't lose the title to Inoki, it's revisionism. It's recognized on here that the title did in fact change hands to Inoki though it goes unrecognized. Just like the WWE recognizes Flair as a 16 time world champion when he's in fact over that count, the encyclopedia here recognizes everything. This page is skewing the facts. The TNA Heavy, and Tag Titles didn't exist until May 14th last year, at the taping where they first introduced the new title belts and under their new TNA branded names. Just because TNA is claiming that the NWA and TNA titles from '02-current are the same doesn't make it true. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 06:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TFA's right. The Inoki/Backlund scenario is a good example. Wikipedia can't claim that Inoki is a former WWE Champion because the WWE doesn't consider him to be a former WWE Champion. That would be substituting personal opinion over the official lineage of the championship. However, Wikipedia does mention that Inoki defeated Backlund for the title, though the reign isn't recognized by WWE. It's the same thing regarding the TNA and NWA World Championships. TNA can claim all they want, but the actual facts are quite different and the actual facts are what have to be recognized. TNA can't officially lay claim to the NWA World Heavyweight and Tag Team Championship lineages no matter what they might say on television because the NWA titles aren't their property. The NWA World Heavyweight and Tag Team Championships are controlled by the NWA and their interpretation of the championship lineages supercede that all others.Odin's Beard (talk) 14:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, first of all the NWA World Heavyweight Championship and TNA World Heavyweight Championships are not the same championships. Second, because of that, all the wrestlers that won the NWA World Title when it was under TNA's control, are not "TNA World Championship" reigns, because under TNA's control, the NWA World title was not renamed to the TNA World title, simply, basically the NWA was lending TNA the title, and then the NWA stripped TNA of their rights to defend the title in their company, and they had to "create" new championships. So under the new championships, new reigns began, because a separate title was created. Using the WWE is a bad example, because they basically bought all assessts of WCW and ECW, so they have the right to do whatever they want with the championships, and when they introduced the WWE United States Championship, they stated they "reactivated" the WCW Championship, but under the WWE name, same as the WWE Cruiserweight Championship. But an example from WWE that could be used is the World Heavyweight Championship, because that is a separate World Championship that was created, but it continues the terminology of the WCW Championship. But in TNA, the TNA World title does not continue the terminology of the NWA World Championship, because they are two different World Championships.~S R X~ 20:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Christian

He was never TNA World Champion, even unofficially. The first ever TNA World Champion was Kurt Angle at Slammiversary 2007. I understand what this inclusion is trying to do, but it would be better served listing Angle as an unofficial NWA World Champion, then Christian and Angle as unofficial TNA World Champions for a few hours each. Dr Rgne (talk) 10:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, ya see, the NWA stripped Christian of the title before Sacrifice last year. So it's up in the air as to how you want to interpret that title reign that lasted oh probably about 10-12 hours? The consensus would be that he was unofficially the first TNA World Champion with Angle being unofficially second. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 17:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TNA said the match was determine the first ever TNA World Heavyweight champion, and the match was won by Kurt Angle - not Christian Cage - so it's pretty obvious. Kurt Angle was the first TNA World Heavyweight champion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.213.9 (talk) 17:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. That match wasn't to determine the first champion. The match to determine first TNA champion was at Slammiversary '07. Dooooiiii. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk • contribs) 03:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My point exactly. The match to determine the first ever TNA World Champion took place at Slammiversary 2007. So how could anybody BEFORE the FIRST EVER champion be listed? TNA said that Cage waa still the NWA World Champion at Sacrifice, and Angle won the NWA World Title there. Angle was stripped of the NWA World Title at the next Impact!. But the NWA refuse to acknowledge Angle's NWA World Title win. If anything the unofficial Angle win at Sacrifice should be on the NWA World Title page, not the TNA World Title page, as the TNA World Title hadn't even been officially declared in existence until the next Impact!. Dr Rgne (talk) 08:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear I saw the iMPACT! after Sacrifice and I saw it again of youtube on TNA wrestling's youtube account and the reason the title was at Slammiversary was because of the dispute at Sacrifice. Cornette said that the match was to crown the first ever undisputed champion. Not the first ever champion, the first undisputed. So Angle winning at Slammiversary means he is the first undisputed TNA world heavyweight champion not that he is the first ever champion. That is why TNA recognizes him as the first champion. So Cage's reign does count. Also TNA counts anyone that won the NWA title as a former TNA World Heavyweight Champion.--WillC (talk) 10:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is going around in circles though. At Slammiversary 2007, Angle was said to have become the first ever pure TNA World Champion, but Cage was said to be wanting to win his third World Title. Also Ron Killings often referred to himself as a 2-time former TNA World Title. My problem is with the May 13 Cage as first TNA World Champion thing in the article. Either Kurt Angle at Slammiversary is the first ever TNA World Champion, or maybe the article should be changed to state that Ken Shamrock was the first ever TNA World Champion, and Angle's May 13 - May 14 2007 reign is the only unofficial TNA World Title reign? Dr Rgne (talk) 10:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've been watching this conversation long enough. Let me first clarify a number of things before I get into it.

First and foremost, the TNA World Heavyweight Championship and the NWA World Heavyweight Championship are not related in anyway other than the minor fact that the NWA title was at one point defended in TNA, therefore, former NWA Champions crowned during the title's time in TNA will not be recognized as also being former TNA Champions on Wikipedia.
Secondly, the NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship hours before Sacrifice, not right after the event, not the day after, not two days, but hours before the event, and as a result, the championship match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title.
Finally, the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion as recognized by the promotion is indeed Kurt Angle. This article does not dispute that. However, the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion by omission is Christian Cage.

Now that we got that out of the way, let me elaborate a little more on the three points just mentioned.

There is no question that TNA considers former NWA Champions in TNA to also be former TNA World Heavyweight Champions, and that is their prerogative. Unfortunately they made that decision a little too late. You see, when Angle won the TNA World Heavyweight Championship at Slammiversary TNA promptly chose to consider Kurt Angle as being the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion. It was only recently (that being a few months ago) that TNA began considering former NWA Champions crowned during that title's time in TNA also former TNA World Heavyweight Champions, and with that, two fatal errors were committed. The first being (as stated above) that the TNA and NWA World Heavyweight Championships are two separate titles, are in no way related, and neither can hold claim to the other's history because of it. The other being that what TNA did is revisionism, and while it is true that revisionism is no stranger to the professional wrestling industry, it is nonetheless against our project's policy to ignore events as they accurately happened and follow retroactive continuity instead. With this established, this article cannot conform to TNA's revised history. However, it is not against policy to make note of TNA's changes, which is why TNA's current view on the title's history is noted in the article.
The NWA did in fact strip Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship on the morning of May 13, hours before Sacrifice aired. There was no "rights" to the title that TNA had until midnight when the NWA made their announcement as others who keep bringing up this same old subject to this talk page time and time again tend to believe and use as an argument. The fact is that the NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship before Sacrifice could take place and therefore, regardless of the physical belt Cage carried to the ring and regardless of what Jeremy Borash announced him as, the match was not for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship.
With that said, the question is, what title was defended at Sacrifice? The answer to this is simple, but to understand it you have to do a really difficult thing that intelligent people would do (other than reading this entire post word for word). That being surpassing the casual fan's ability to only remember recent months of history, and going way further back. I'm talking about May 13, 2007 through June 17, 2007. You see, at Sacrifice, other than Borash's ring announcing, the entire match made absolutely no mention of Christian being the NWA World Heavyweight Champion but instead referred to him as "the heavyweight champion of the world." When the event concluded after a controversial finish and Kurt Angle was named the victor, on that week's Impact Angle not only referred to himself (and was referred to) as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion but also held the belt representing that title. However on that same day, Jim Cornette stripped Angle of the title due to the controversial end of the match that resulted in Cage and Sting holding claim to the title, and declared that an (his actual words) "undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion" would be crowned at Slammiversary. Now in this case, "undisputed" isn't an actual name that was given to the title like in the case of the WWE Undisputed Championship, but rather implied that without any controversy or dispute a TNA World Heavyweight Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary. Eventually, it would soon be shown that TNA did not end up considering Angle's controversial match at Sacrifice one for the TNA title and it was only after Slammiversary that TNA referred to Angle as the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion without argument. So the simple answer to the question, and it may be hard to understand at first, is that that the title that was defended at Sacrifice, the title that Angle controversially won, the title that Angle gloated about holding on the Impact after, was unofficially the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Why? Because the same title that was defended after the NWA title was taken away, the same title that gave Angle claim to being the TNA World Heavyweight Champion after the match at Sacrifice, the same title Cornette stripped and led him to make the King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary, eventually and officially became the official TNA World Heavyweight Championship.

In conclusion, the fact of the matter is this. Due to the NWA stripping Cage of the NWA title, by omission Christian Cage is unofficially the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. However, Kurt Angle is the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 05:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How long did it take you to write that? Okay with that said I agree that Cage is the first unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion and Angle is the official First TNA World Heavyweight Champion. So technically Cage's reign counts as being the first but we should only recognize it as the first Unofficial.WillC (talk) 06:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... 20 minutes... Anyway, you are exactly right. Like I said, revisionism is no stranger to the industry. It occurs constantly and the best known example of this is Ric Flair's actual number of world title reigns. Like with every Championship article on Wikipedia the project chooses to recognize the actual events that occured but also note the current version of history that is viewed. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 06:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I have nothing left to say on this matter. I know you and me have agreed on this but not sure about the rest.--WillC (talk) 07:43, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's no need to be insulting, and claim that only "intelligent people" understand your take on this. And that's all it is. Your take. By the same token we could claim that Cage had the NWA belt, was announced as NWA Champion, Angle won the NWA belt, Angle was announced as new NWA Champion with NWA belt. The next day Angle has the TNA belt, and is stripped of that. In other words Angle held 2 different titles in a 24-hour period. Also note the handling of Team 3D's Tag title reign. They won the NWA Tag titles at Lockdown. After being stripped of the NWA belts they were merely awarded the TNA belts. The fact that TNA regards (and said so at the time) this as a single reign is troublesome enough. But since Team 3D were only recognised as TNA Tag Champions(specifically by name) at the Impact! after Sacrifice shows they were only officially TNA Tag Team Champions after that event. Even the TNA Tag Team Title page shows their reign beginning on May 14, not on May 13. You state that TNA revisionism has no place here, but then use it for your argument. TNA considered Cage to be NWA Champion, and Angle to have won the NWA Championship at Sacrifice. It was only after the NWA/TNA split became final(and somewhat acrimonious) that they decided to change directions and call the belts TNA belts, and claim that they were so all along. Angle came out with the TNA belt at the Impact! immediately after Sacrifice, but in the eyes of TNA it was the same thing as the NWA belt he'd won the previous night. Likewise Team 3D's new TNA belts were considered to represent the same thing they'd defended against Rick Steiner/Road Warrior Animal, AND ALSO to represent the same thing they'd won from LAX the month before! In other words AFTER MAy 13 EVERY NWA belt holder, past and present, was rewritten to have been TNA belt holders. Focusing on one detail(Angle had the TNA belt and was called TNA Champion on the May 14/17 Impact!) is missing the bigger picture. Basically, while the NWA/TNA partnership suited TNA they called the belts "NWA". After the split, they stated that the TNA belts had been TNA belts all along. That's a different thing from specifically creating a new belt hours before Sacrifice. At Slammiversary 2007 there were multiple references to Christian Cage wanting to win his THIRD World Title in TNA. Angle was declared the first PURE TNA Champion in June 2007, meaning he was the first to win the TNA belt without any NWA affiliation. By your reasoning there were already 2 previous pure TNA reigns before that, Cage, and Angle himself. But no Angle was the first PURE TNA Champion. I understand why people write the first 2 (unofficial) reigns of the TNA World Title were Cage and Angle, but that's really one way of looking at it. TNA considered those to be TNA title reigns, but then they considered ALL World Title reigns in TNA to be TNA World Title reigns(retroactively) and Cage's to merely be the last few hours of a reign that had begun when he defeated Sting and Abyss months before. So you're using TNA's own revisionism as the reason to not accept TNA revisionism? They only called Angle "TNA Champion" the next night because they had finished with the NWA, but already in their minds the NWA and TNA belts were the same things. At Slammiversary Angle became the first PURE TNA Champion, meaning the first TNA Champion post-any NWA connection. But ALL World Champions in TNA are were considered to be former TNA World Champions IMMEDIATELY after the NWA/TNA split. I hope you're not too intelligent to understand this. Angle was called TNA World Champion only after TNA realised that all connections with the NWA had been severed, and it was in their best interests to claim all former champions(and the current champion) as TNA Champion. But the officially-created TNA belt was not won until Slammiversary. Get it? Got it? Good! Dr Rgne (talk) 10:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I seem to have ranted there and gotten too personal. I apologise. The point I should have made more clearly is that on May 13 2007 the TNA World Title DID NOT EXIST. As far as TNA was concerned at the time Christian Cage was th NWA World Champion, Team 3D were the NWA Tag Champions. Yes I know, the NWA no longer recognised them as such, but TNA DID NOT recognise them as "TNA" Champions either. Angle won the 3-man match and in TNA's eyes was "NWA" World Champion, and was announced as such. The next day(May 14) TNA realised that the NWA/TNA split meant their title histories were non-existent, so they decided(as noted above) to rewrite their own history and claim ALL Champions, past and (then-)present as "TNA" Champions. Thus Angle became TNA World Champion, Team 3D became TNA Tag Champions, Jeff Jarrett became a former 6-time TNA World Champion etc. In TNA's eyes this was merely a continuation of what (had now been rewritten to have) been TNA belts all along. So yes, TNA said that Angle beat Cage for the "TNA" belt at Sacrifice. But then they also said Cage had won the TNA belt at Final Resolution, and that his victory over Jarrett in February 2006 was for the TNA belt as well! Ron Killings also mentioned himself as being a 2-time former TNA World Champion etc. But at Slammiversary 2007, Angle was said to have become the first person to win the PURE TNA World Title(meaning the first person to win a World Title in TNA without any NWA affiliation). Although the NWA do not recognise Angle's Sacrifice victory as an NWA Title win(as they had already stripped Cage of the belt) TNA regard that as having taken place in what was still the NWA/TNA era.

What we are left with then is that TNA did not even mention such a thing as a "TNA World Title" until the May 14/17 Impact! At the time of the Sacrifice the very concept of a TNA World Title did not yet exist! Therefore Cage could not possibly have been TNA World Champion any more than he could have in 2006! Althogh Angle could have been the first (unofficial) TNA World Champion, though only on May 14... Dr Rgne (talk) 10:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the article and listd Angle as first (unofficial) TNA World Champion as of May 14. Remember nobody ever used the phrase(or even mentioned the such a concept as a) "TNA World Championship) until May 14 2007. As far as TNA were concerned on MAy 13 2007, Cage was the NWA Champion, and Angle won the NWA Championship. Only the next day did they mention a "TNA World Title", and claimed that Anglew had beaten TNA World Champion Cage for the TNA World Championship. But then they also said that CAGe had been TNA World Champion since Final Resolution. By the same token, if Rick Steiner/Road Warrior Animal had beaten Team 3D at Sacrifice, they wouldn't have won the NWA Tag Titles, but they would only have become TNA Tag Champions as of May 14. So Cage was never TNA World Champion(not as this time of writing anyway, he may win the belt in the future)and Angle was never NWA World Champion... Dr Rgne (talk) 12:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't feel like reading all of this, but Angle was never announced as NWA World Heavyweight Champion. He was announced as "new Heavyweight Champion of the World". Don't believe me? I watched it live, go buy the DVD, go find it on the internet. The only mention of the NWA Heavyweight Title at Sacrifice was by Jeremy Borash during in-ring introduction of Christian Cage, and that by the looks of it was a mistake on his part. No other time was NWA mentioned during that broadcast. They simply referred to the previously NWA Championships as World Heavyweight Championship and World Tag Team Championship. There's no where this arguing can go really. I'm right, you're wrong. I win, you lose. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 00:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1)Christian was at no point prior to May 14 EVER announced as "TNA World Champion" 2)Christian came out (May 13) with the NWA belt. It was mentioned that this was the same reign that had begun at Final resolution 2007. 3)When Angle won he was presented with the NWA belt. 4)Angle was at no point at Sacrifice ever referred to as "TNA World Champion" 5)At no point during Sacrifice was a "TNA World Title" ever mentioned. 6)The Tag team situation is the same with Team 3D 7)Only after the NWA split became official (May 14) did TNA retroactively claim TNA-era Champions as having been "TNA" Champions, thus they claimed AT A LATER DATE that Christian had been TNA Champion. But they said that he was a 2-time (Feb-June 2006, and Jan-May 2007) champion! 8)They also claimed that everyone from Shamrock on was TNA World Champion too though. 9)Someone above stated that wikipedia does NOT use revisionist/retroactive continuity. 10)How can you say I'm wrong if you never even read what I said?!

So to clarify: i)There was NO SUCH THING as a "TNA World Title" before May 14. ii) TNA did LATER say that Christian was TNA World Champion at Sacrifice, but then they also said he'd been TNA World Champion since Final resolution.

You are in fact wrong. Totally wrong. Dr Rgne (talk) 11:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alright then Dr. Moron, where did I ever say that they claimed them to be TNA World Tag and Heavyweight Champions at Sacrifice 07? Oh that's right shit for brains, I didn't. I said, that they called them generically branded World Heavyweight and World Tag Team Champions and referred to the titles as such. If those titles were not NWA titles which if I am mistaken you just agreed with me on, then what titles are they? Do you want to go make a page for the unbranded TNA Titles from Sacrifice 07 now? Sounds like you do. You're a fucking moron. Your edits won't hold up, and you babble on and write books about useless shit throughout this talk page. So you sir, for the moron that you are, are indeed totally wrong. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 18:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I guess you've shown the full extent of your position, calling me "moron", "shit for brains" etc, while never once giving a proper response to any of my comments, questions or points. I won't stoop to your level of personal insults, but will only ask you this(which I do hope you are capable of fully grasping)...

IF the TNA World Title was not created until May 14 2007, how exactly could anybody be TNA World Champion BEFORE May 14 2007?

For the millionth time, TNA still recognised Christian as NWA Champion at Sacrifice. Yes, yes, I know, the NWA had already stripped Christian of the NWA belt, but TNA had not yet even acknowledged the existence of a TNA World Title. Read what the poster some posts back wrote about wikipedia's policy on retconning. You can NOT go back and say "Oh, well Christian was the TNA World Champion all along!"

So what was Christian? He wasn't NWA Champion, because NWA had stripped him. He wasn't TNA Champion because that belt DID NOT EXIST yet at the time. The best way to look at it is that when NWA stripped Christian he became the man who would later (the next day) be declared the first TNA Champion. By winning the 3-way Angle won Christian's right/spot/whatever to be declared the first ever TNA Champion THE NEXT DAY. Yes, there was a belt involved on May 13, the NWA belt !! And Jeremy Borash (and others) made reference to the "NWA" Championship, NOT the "TNA" Championship.

You are only looking at this from one point, that the NWA belt had been stripped. You are completely(deliberately it seems) ignoring the very real fact that the TNA belt was only created the next day, ie. AFTER the Cage-Angle-Sting match was over and done with. You say Angle couldn't win the NWA belt there because that belt wasn't in TNA at the time of the match. Fine. I agree with you. But the TNA belt also wasn't involved with TNA at the time of the match, having not yet even been created. I hope you understand this now, and if/when you post replies do not again use foul language and personal insults. Dr Rgne (talk) 07:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Look the point we are trying to make here is this. When the NWA stripped Cage of the NWA title before Sacrifice, TNA no longer had any control over the NWA title. So regardless of what TNA wants to consider, the match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title. We have established that the TNA title was created the Impact after Sacrifice and commissioned at Slammiversary. However due to Christian being stripped of the title before Sacrifice and the match not being for the NWA title, we will consider Christian as the unofficial first TNA Champion. You think that TNA is the only one here being singled out? We do this for every promotion's Championship history. We recognize official and unofficial reigns. We would consider Kurt Angle's victory an unofficial NWA title victory just as well if the NWA title were still in control of TNA during that match, even if the NWA refused to recognize it. Unfortunately in this case and for yours, TNA had no control over the NWA title at Sacrifice and regardless of what they claimed, they have no say over any portion of the NWA title's history. And just for the record, the only mention of the NWA title for the main event at Sacrifice was indeed Borash's introduction. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 07:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly true that the match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA Title. However, it was mentioned above that wikipedia does not use retroactive continuity, but goes by what happened at the time. What happened at the time was that TNA still fully believed(as has been stated over and over again) that they(TNA) had full control of the NWA Title belts until midnight (the end of May 13 2007). That they did not is not really relevant. They (TNA) believed that Cage was still the legitimate NWA Champion. They already had the TNA belt, yet Cage came out with the NWA belt. The match had been promoted for weeks beforehand as being for the NWA Title, and it was announced as being for the NWA Title. Only a few people knew about the title stripping, and most people watching fully believed (were led to believe by TNA) that this was for the NWA Title. Angle (controversially) won the match and was given the same NWA belt that Cage had won from Abyss 4 months earlier, the same NWA championship that was announced at the start of the match. The TNA website at the time listed this as an NWA Title victory for Angle. Yes, yes, it was not for the NWA belt as Cage had been stripped before the match. But the point is this: In TNA's eyes it WAS a legitimate, sanctioned NWA Title match, as they felt they had full control of the NWA title until midnight.

So much has been made of the fact that the NWA and TNA World Titles are 2 different belts with 2 different lineages, yet people choose to ignore that as far as TNA was concerned the Sacrifice match was part of the NWA Title lineage. Not the TNA Title lineage. Again, yes Cage had already been stripped of the NWA Title, but TNA made it perfectly clear that they considered that match to be a legitimately sanctioned NWA World Title match.

As of midnight one crucial thing happened...TNA felt that it was only of this moment that they lost control of the NWA titles. Not at all a minor point as only now did the TNA World Title(and TNA Tag Titles) come in existence. Before May 14 2007, there was never any such thing as a "TNA World Title". Giving World Title recognition (official or unofficial) before such a belt even existed would appear to go completely against wikipedia policy. As of May 14 2007 TNA awarded the TNA World Title and TNA Tag Titles to the people they believed to have been the last NWA Champions in TNA...Kurt Angle and Team 3D. Yes, at 23:59 on May 13 2007 TNA fully believed that Kurt Angle was the legitimate NWA World Heavyweight Champion, NOT the TNA Heavyweight Champion(which has been pointed out repeetedly) is a completely different belt.

Angle came out on the May 14 Impact! with the TNA belt and was identified as TNA Champion. It was also stated that he had won the title at Sacrifice. So that means Cage was TNA Champion at Sacrifice right? Well, no. Not at all. You see, on the same show Team 3D appeared carrying the TNA Tag Team Titles, and it was made clear that these were the same titles they had won from LAX at Lockdown the month before. Well, using certain people's logic, that MUST mean that LAX were defending the TNA Tag team Titles at Lockdown. This is the whole "retcon" thing mentioned above.

At Slammiversary Angle won the TNA World Title, and was declared to be the "first pure TNA World Champion". In other words Angle was , in TNA's eyes at least, the first person to win a match for the TNA World Title, rather than the NWA World Title in TNA. Because this was the first match that had ever been sanctioned for the TNA Title. In other words, it was made perfectly and unambiguously clear that the match at Sacrifice was NOT for the TNA Title, the match at Slammiversary was the first ever time wrestlers were "competing" in a match for the TNA World Title.

You see, to sum up, it has been repeatedly stated that you can't go back and rewrite the title history. You can't say Ken Shamrock was the first ever TNA Champion. Why? Because the TNA Title did not exist. What matters is that at that time (June 2002) there was not TNA Title. Likewise, it doesn't matter what is said today, what was said 6 months ago, or even what was said about Angle winning the "TNA Title" on May 14 2007. All that matters is what was TNA's official position on May 13 2007? Anything else is retconning. And on May 13 2007, TNA were insisting (quite forcefully) that they had full control of the NWA Title until midnight. They already had a physical TNA belt, yet instead sent Cage out with the NWA belt. It had been announced for weeks that the match would be for the NWA World Title, and at no point on May 13 2007 did they make any attempt to correct this. Cage came out with the NWA belt, and the match was announced as being for the NWA Title. When Angle won hew was presented with the NWA belt. And TNA insisted he was the legitimate NWA World Champion (even stating as much on their website) because (they believed) "TNA has full control of the NWA World Title until midnight".

Any attempt to claim Cage as first (official or unofficial) TNA World Champion as of May 13 2007 is rewriting history. It is akin to Star Trek "fan fiction", and has no place in any sort of valid encyclopedia. The main questions are:

1)When was the first time a "TNA" World Title was specifically and unambiguously mentioned? (A: May 14 2007)

2)Who was the first person ever positively identified as "TNA World Champion" (A: Kurt Angle)

3)At the time of Sacrifice 2007 what was TNA's official position(incorrect as it may have been) concerning Cage and Cage's title? (A: Cage was still NWA World Champion, and was defending the NWA Title as TNA "had until midnight")

4)Can somebody hold a title that does not even officially exist? (A: No. Of course not)

5)Have wrestling promotions ever promoted titles they do not have the right to sanction matches for before? (A: Yes)

6)What is the official positions on these titles (A: They are not considered official title matches of either promotion)

Dr Rgne (talk) 09:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Look the point we are trying to make here is this. When the NWA stripped Cage of the NWA title before Sacrifice, TNA no longer had any control over the NWA title. So regardless of what TNA wants to consider, the match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title. We have established that the TNA title was created the Impact after Sacrifice and commissioned at Slammiversary. However due to Christian being stripped of the title before Sacrifice and the match not being for the NWA title, we will consider Christian as the unofficial first TNA Champion. You think that TNA is the only one here being singled out? We do this for every promotion's Championship history. We recognize official and unofficial reigns. We would consider Kurt Angle's victory an unofficial NWA title victory just as well if the NWA title were still in control of TNA during that match, even if the NWA refused to recognize it. Unfortunately in this case and for yours, TNA had no control over the NWA title at Sacrifice and regardless of what they claimed, they have no say over any portion of the NWA title's history. And just for the record, the only mention of the NWA title for the main event at Sacrifice was indeed Borash's introduction. --UnquestionableTruth-- 07:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

-- TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 03:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I fully understand what you mean but my point is this. There are 2 DIFFERENT concepts:

1)The World Champion as recognized by TNA Wrestling.

2)The TNA World Champion.

Right now 1) and 2) are the same thing. But that was only the case from May 14 2007 at the earliest (and many, including people in TNA would say only from Slammiversary 2007). But obviously this was not always so.

Also note that the "TNA World Title" is a real World Title with a real lineage, and a real definite starting point. It is not some abstract concept that can be interpreted/redefined to fit someone's whim or fancy.

Yes, Cage was the Champion in TNA (#1) after the NWA had stripped him of the NWA World Title. But he was not the TNA World Title, officially or unofficially(#2), as those are two totally different concepts, and your failure(or maybe unwillingness) to accept this is the reason for this needlessly going on on and.

Look, who is the "RAW World Champion" right now? You see there is nobody, as there is no such thing. Triple-H is the (WWE) World Champion on RAW, but he is not the RAW World Champion, as those are 2 different concepts. It used to be the World Champion(Big Gold Belt) was the RAW Champion.

So, just because Christian Cage was the World Champion in TNA after he had been stripped of the NWA World Title, and he was defeated by Kurt Angle, who WENT ON TO BE recognized as the first TNA World Champion, does NOT in any way shape or form mean that Cage was TNA World Champion, official or unofficial. Please do not just cut and paste the quote you used above, as while it is a "clean and easy" answer it is just plain wrong. Dr Rgne (talk) 07:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the point you're trying to make, but don't understand why you're trying to make it. We came to the conclusion to include Christian as the first reign on the table(and marked as unofficial, because it is unofficial) because logically, if the NWA title was not the title at Sacrifice '07(and it wasn't, NWA stripped 3D and Cage and re-took control of their titles that day), then it can only be recognized in one way..and that is unofficially, keyword there, the first reign of the TNA World Title. Understand, we have marked these carefully. We note why we mark Christian as first unofficial Champion, and that is because the NWA stripped him. TNA might not have called this title at the event the TNA World Title, but we have to assume that it is...because TNA had no control of the NWA title, and Cage and 3D were stripped of their championships about 8-9 hours before the event started. And for the first time, the next night, Angle and 3D came out with the new championship belts which everyone referred to as the TNA World Heavyweight and TNA World Tag Team Championships. Believe me, we get the point, you don't buy that Cage should be noted as unofficially the first champion, but FACTS are facts. Cage couldn't have been NWA Champion at this event because he was stripped, and it forced TNA to not use the NWA name at all(except for Borash, who of course as I said before may have made a mistake) during this event. I urge you to watch this event if this bothers you so much, because the only time that they ever said NWA on that program was during Cage's in-ring introduction for the main event by Jeremy Borash.

I'll spell it out a bit more clearly.

TNA promotes event going in with matches for NWA World Heavyweight and Tag Team Titles. Christian Cage and Team 3D hold these NWA branded championships respectfully.

At some point around 11am - 12pm EST on May 13th, 2007; The NWA releases a video with Robert Trobich announcing the formal stripping of Christian Cage and Team 3D of their championships, along with a load of kayfabe about the titles being disgraced, but we won't get into that.

So now, Cage and Team 3D simply cannot be NWA champions going in. So logically..what does TNA do? They decide not to use NWA or TNA in the formerly NWA championship names at all for this event.

Christian Cage and Team 3D now, logically are your first TNA World Heavyweight and TNA World Tag Team Champions by default. Why? Because TNA had no control whatsoever of the NWA titles for this event. TNA cannot claim Cage as the NWA Champion during this event and surely cannot claim Angle as an NWA champion either. Why? Because TNA had no control whatsoever of the NWA titles for this event. The NWA stripped them of their titles before the event even started.

The only use of NWA property in this show were the title belts, but the only time you actually hear the letters...N...W...and A is during Cage's in-ring intro. And like I said...this probably was a mistake. They'd played it safe all night and never at all used the NWA name in reference to those titles.

Thus..we note on this page that unofficially(because TNA does not recognize it, regardless of time..Cage's NWA title reign both unofficially and officially ended on the same date but many hours apart) Christian Cage is the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Cage wasn't NWA Champion that night, hell, he wasn't TNA Champion either, but what title did he hold? That's the question that is simply answered with a note that Christian could have only been regarded as the unofficially first TNA World Champion. I rest my case. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 14:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, here are the archives, read through them and know why users here came to the consensus that they did. [1]

[2] This is why some of us aren't really open to arguing this again, because we already concluded how things like Cage's "nothing" reign should be noted and such. We ask you to read these archives for better understanding of why we disagree with your choice of history in contrast to how this page was originally displayed. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 14:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you mean, but my main problem is why Cage's "World Title" at Sacrifice is automatically assumed to be the TNA World Title(or a previous version of it)? The TNA Title did not exist before May 14 2007. Cage had been stripped of the NWA Title earlier that day, but TNA made no reference to his World Title at sacrifice being a new championship, a new reign, a new anything. He had the Domed Globe belt, the match had been heavily promoted as an NWA Title match, Borash said "NWA" etc. Angle won the match(controversially) and got the Domed Globe belt. The next day Angle was positively identified as the TNA Champion. They also said that he had won the belt from Cage the day before, but then they claimed that the NWA belt in TNA was the TNA Title all along!

The nearest comparison to this appears to be the IC belt and Ted DiBiase. DiBiase arrived in the WWWF as the North American Champion of a different promotion. For a while the WWWF had a deal where they could have DiBiase defend the North American belt in the WWWF. Soon however the other promotion wanted their belt, and title control back, so stripped DiBiase. However the WWWF continued to book DiBiase as North American champion. They even had Pat Patterson win the belt. Then the stupidity of the situation became apparent, and so they named Patterson as the first IC Champion(and invented a BS story about a tournament in Rio). So yes DiBiase was in a sense part of the IC lineage, and had held the belt that was the forerunner to the IC Title. But he is not, and never has been, recognized as an IC Champion, either official or unofficial.

Here's basically what happened on May 13 2007...Cage was supposed to defend the NWA belt at Sacrifice. The NWA stripped Cage of the title. TNA did not at any point award Cage a new title, mention anything about a new title, or even acknowledge the existence of a new title. Cage came out with the NWA belt, was announced as NWA World Champion etc. Except he wasn't NWA World Champion. It was in effect a non-sanctioned match for a belt they had no control over. Angle won the Fake NWA World Title(controversially). Angle is no stranger to Fake belts won from stripped ex-champions. The next day Angle was recogized as the first TNA World Champion. But then they started claiming that Angle had won the belt from Cage, and the NWA in TNA belt was the TNA belt all along!

So it wasn't for the TNA World Title, officially or unofficially. Going back and saying Angle was TNA World Champion on May 14, Angle won the belt from Cage, Cage was no longer NWA Champion...therefore Cage was TNA Champion is the texbook example of the aforementioned retroactive continuity. Cage should not be listed as even an unofficial TNA champion. A note mentioning Sacrifice and that match should be there, but Cage has no direct connection to the TNA World Title. Dr Rgne (talk) 15:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to say this again: We know that the TNA World Title didn't exist until May 14th, that's why we mark the Cage reign on May 13th as UNOFFICIAL, because TNA doesn't recognize it. I don't know how many times that has to be said for you to stop. Angle "won" the title from Cage, and the next night he was for a brief moment walking around as TNA World Heavyweight Champion. There's your direct connection from Cage to the TNA World Title. I don't know how much more clearer I can get with this but I'm not going to try. Ya know, Chewbacca is an 8 foot tall Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor with a bunch of 2 foot tall Ewoks. Now think about this: Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. It does not...make...SENSE. I rest...my case. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 16:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow what a headache. I can't believe I read all this. I believe it all to be like this though:

Christian Cage was the NWA World Heavyweight Champion on May 13, 2007 at Sacrifice. The NWA drops their sanctioning, but Kurt Angle still wins the NWA World Heavyweight Title from Christian. TNA recognizes the title change, and Kurt even talks about his NWA Title win backstage and glorifies himself as now being among the elites of former NWA World Champions (you can see that video on TNA Mobile). The NWA however DOES NOT recognize this title change because they did not sanction the match and they had withdrawed with TNA. This is why some of Ric Flair's NWA Title reigns go unrecognized in the early days when he had a couple title loses and wins in Puerto Rico, among other places, and that's because the NWA DID NOT sanction those title matches, just like they DID NOT sanction the Sacrifice main event title match. Yet here at Wikipedia we still recognize those Flair reigns under the unofficial light? Why not Kurt Angle then? This DOES NOT make any sense to me. It clearly was not a TNA World Heavyweight Title win because that belt DID NOT exist at all yet. They were all unofficial NWA Title matches at Sacrifice 2007. 70.68.56.48 (talk) 19:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not Kurt Angle then? Because there is one major flaw in your Ric Flair argument. In all those times Flair lost the NWA World Heavyweight Championship in Caribbean in 1983, the NWA title was under the NWA's control. It's not that the NWA didn't sanction the matches or that they refused to recognize the reigns, it’s just that they were never mentioned in the US and neither confirm or denied the matches had taken place. There was also severe lack of information on those matches available at the time and still to this day. However, in this case with Sacrifice, the facts are clear. Not only did the NWA utterly refused to recognize the supposed Angle reign, but TNA itself also didn't recognize it as an NWA title match. Nowhere else, other than Borash's slip, was the NWA's name mentioned. Of course Cage did carry the NWA belt with him. Unfortunately for your argument, a belt is nothing more than a physical object that serves as a representation of a specified title. Therefore, the match was for the Heavyweight Championship of the World represented by the NWA belt. So, Here you have both NWA and TNA not specifying the match as being one for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship, but rather for the Heavyweight Championship of the world. Because of this, by omission, Cage is listed here as the World Heavyweight Champion in TNA before Angle, who is considered here the First official TNA World Heavyweight Champion.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 06:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to revert the article again. I am however going to state for the last time, that it is irrelevant what time Cage was stripped, whether or not a guy carrying a belt saying "NWA" on it and being announced as "NWA Champion" can mean something else to some people etc. The one simple fact is this...

The TNA World Title was only created on May 14 2007. Therefore it logically follows that nobody can be a TNA World Champion, officially or unofficially before that belt even existed.

Anyrhing else is merelt arguing over what really happened on May 13 2007 at Sacrifice. Was Cage NWA Champion? No, he had been stripped of the title earlier that day. Was Cage(even unofficially) the TNA World Champion? No, because that belt didn't even exist yet. Cage was the World Champion in TNA but he was not the TNA World Champion'. So what belt was on the line st Sacrifice? Well, the best thing(though still far from perfect) may be to call it the Fake NWA World Title. Then the last holder of that belt(Angle) became the first TNA World Champion when the TNA World Title was created the following day. A note detailing Cage's NWA reign, and the stupidity of May 13 2007 should obviously be added to the article, but listing Cage as TNA World Champion (even unofficially) still seems wrong. Dr Rgne (talk) 09:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The first TNA World Heavyweight Champion was Ken Shamrock on June 19 2002. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.145.136 (talk) 12:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Official TNA Titles lineage

http://www.tnawrestling.com/content/view/218/84/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.168.79 (talk) 02:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That makes it look as though Cage was still World Champion going into the King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary 2007. Also, remember that WCW used to refer to people like Harley Race and Ricky "The Steamboat" Dragon as former WCW World Champions. This lineiage also doesn't make mention of what exactly happened at Sacrifice on May 13 2007. Dr Rgne (talk) 09:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TNA Revisionism vs NWA Revisionism etc

The Flair comparison blows your argument right out of the water. In 1984 the NWA did NOT recognize the Flair/Race title changes. Only in about 1995 or 1996 did the NWA (who were a totally different group of people by that point) deide to recognize title changes from over a decade before! There are countless examples of Flair being referred to as a x-time World Champion, where x does not include the New Zealand/Singapore title changes. Also when Race appeared a Vader's manager(early 90's) he was always called the 7-time World Champion. Likewise the Flair-Fujinami title switch(es) never happened. It was a Dusty finish where Fujinami seemingly won the belt, only to be DQ'd(officially) and Flair to leave as World Champion. And again, at no point in 1991, did anyone ever mention that Flair was both the NWA World Champion, and WCW World Champion at the same time, nor that those were in fact 2 different belts. Only in late 1992, after Chono won the new NWA belt, while Simmons or Vader or whoever was the WCW Champion, did the whole crap about there being 2 belts, and Flair being a double champion come into play.

So what does this have to do with the TNA World Heavyweight Championship I hear you all ask? Well, see the Flair-Race('84), the Flair-Fujinami('91), and the Flair as double-champion(NWA/WCW '91) examples were all things that were not recognized, or even hinted at at the time they supposedly occured. yet they were all RETROACTIVELY claimed as being official by the NWA(and WCW). And Wikipedia now recognizes them as official.

Yet when TNA uses its own revisionism it is deliberately rejected because "wikipedia doesn't use retroactive continuity". Well, then DON'T recognize the Flair-Race title changes, the Flair-Fujinami title changes, or Flair's phantom first WCW Title reign.

Likewise, when the AWA(and WWE) both retroactively recognized Hogan as a former AWA World Champion, Wikipedia says that those reigns can't be recognized because they were only made official long after the event!

Does wikipedia have one set of rules for Ric Flair and the NWA, and one set of rules for everyone and everything else? 41.245.166.163 (talk) 14:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, oh no... Something’s missing! Hmmm.... what could it be though? Oh, we know, we know! NWA, WWE, and AWA, OWN their damn titles! As of result, they have the right to recognize whatever they want! So what does this have to do with the TNA World Heavyweight Championship I hear just you ask? Well, see the Angle-Cage-Sting('07) at Sacrifice wasn't even an unsanctioned match by both TNA or the NWA, meaning no one recognized the match as being for the NWA title. Even if TNA wanted to, they couldn't because they had lost any ownership clain to the title that morning. However since it was at least for an "interim" TNA title and since it did precede the TNA World Heavyweight Championship, We will not separate nor remove the Cage-Angle reigns listed and will not move them to the NWA article. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 17:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That wasn't the point at all. The point was that when the NWA went back and gave retreoactive world title reigns to Flair(and thus Race and Fujinami) wikipedia regards those reigns as official. See the NWA World Heavyweight Championship page (or maybe it was the list of champions page?). There is no hint that those reigns were later added on, it is clearly implied that they were always official. However, the Hogan/AWA reigns are regarded as unofficial although both WWE (who own the AWA title and its lineage, in fact they own the AWA lock, stock and barrel), and the "AWA Superstars"(who claim to be the resurrection of the old AWA) recognize Hogan's AWA title reigns as official. So why is there one rule for the NWA, and one for the AWA/WWE?

The TNA revisionism that was mentioned in the preceding post in unrelated to the Angle/Cage/Sting match. It is the TNA revisionism that claims that Ken Shamrock was the first TNA World Champion. TNA had full control of the World Title in TNA. Since Cage was the "TNA World Champion" (and has been listed as such on this page) because he had the World Title in TNA, booked by TNA, and since TNA calls everyone from Shamrock on "TNA World Champion" (see link on the TNA page some posts above), why can't TNA's revisionism be "official"? As after all TNA owns their own title. And please don't use the "NWA and TNA belts are 2 different things, each with their own lineage" argument, as you have repeatedly contradicted that yourself with the "Cage as first Unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion" revisionism. You don't own TNA and its World Title lineage. TNA does! 41.245.187.21 (talk) 19:57, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your Hogan as AWA Champion argument loses it's legs because the WWE owns the rights to the AWA only as of 2003-ish? So them recognizing Hogan as AWA Champion 20 years after it being a dusty finish and him never being called a former AWA champ before that is revisionism. Most of your argument fell apart a few rants ago, and is mostly just yamma yamma bla bla. Anyays... I don't know why people are so pressed about some unofficial reigns here... but I think an admin should look into the influx of edits to this page to support this stupid, long, tired, and concluded argument. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 16:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What are you talking about? This is my third post now. The point I am making has nothing to do with the Cage/Angle "unofficial TNA" reigns. It is to do with the recognition of Ken Shamrock as TNA Champion etc. If the NWA can go back years(decades?) after the event and recognize NWA Title reigns that they insisted never happened at the time(and for years afterwards) then why not TNA or WWE etc.? WWE owns all rights to the NWA, they control the AWA lineage and they say Hogan is a 2-time AWA World Champion. WWE also owns all rights to WCW and its title lineage. Note that WCW themselves did not recognize Chris Benoit's Januray 2000 win, but over a year later when WWFE bought WCW, they recognized it, and now benoit is an official former WCW World Champion. Likewise NOBODY at the time recognized the Flair-Race('84) or Flair-Fujinami('91) title switches. In fact the official result was that Flair beat Fujinami by DQ in the 1st match, and pinfall in the second match. Long long after the event the NWA(who were a totally different group of promoters by that point) recognize Flair-Race and Flair-Fujinami, and wikipedia calls those official (like the Benoit 2000 WCW reign). So, why not Hogan as AWA Champion, or Shamrock as TNA Champion? And if the NWA suddenly recognized Colon or Jovica or Venino as former NWA World Heavyweight Champions, I'd put money on wikipedia deciding that those were real and official reigns all along! Perhaps I should have started a new heading/section for discussion. This isn't about Christian and May 13 2007 specifically, this is aboiut why certain revisdinism is official and accepted, and other revisionism is considered to be bullshit. 41.245.187.21 (talk) 07:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting ridiculous. Apparently the new PWI Almanac and Book of Facts it out now(or will be out very soon?). Does anyone have this book? if so, what does it say about a)the NWA World Title, b)the TNA World Title, c)the WCW World Title, d)the AWA World Title? Dr Rgne (talk) 13:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You people are all missing some important things:

1)Angle's victory at Sacrifice 2007 (whatever title it was for) was OVERTURNED the next night. Just like Dusty Rhodes' Starrcade 1985 victory was overturned. Angle may have been announced as champion and left with the belt, but that victory was declared null and void, and stricken from the "record books". 2)I agree with the guy above who says that Cage couldn't possible be TNA Champion. Seriously, if the TNA belt hadn't even been created yet, how could he be champion? Maybe I'll claim I was unofficial ECW Champion in 1991? 3)So Cage is stripped of the NWA Title on May 13, Angle never REALLY won(victory overturned), and the TNA belt was first fought for at Slammiversary. So here's the sequence of events:

Cage is stripped of the NWA belt. TNA deliberately ignores this and claims his match later that day is an NWA Title match, when it isn't.

The match officially ends in an indecisive way, in which NO ONE wins, but Cage clearly loses.

Cornette declares what the belt void/vacant the next day, and announces the new TNA World belt, which will FIRST be contested for at Slammiversary.

so it goes Cage as NWA Champion------no belt-----TNA at Slammiversary with Angle as the first champion, official or unofficial... 41.245.177.237 (talk) 07:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Christian Cage could not POSSIBLY have EVER been TNA World Champion, officially, unofficially, virtually, de facto, or imaginary on May 13 2007, because that belt didn't even exist on May 13 2007. The kind of person who goes "Cage was stripped of the NWA Title on May 13. Angle beat Cage for a World Title on May 13, Angle was called "TNA World Champion" on May 14, therefore Cage MUST have been "TNA World Champion"(albeit unofficially) on May 13" is deliberately ignoring the fact that there was no TNA World Champion on May 13 2007. And anyway, Angle's "victory" on may 13 was overturned. In essence the TNA booked a non-sanctioned, unofficial NWA World Title match on May 13 that the NWA does not recognize since their business relationship with TNA had ended just before the match(though the relationship existed at the time the match was first announced). That's ALL there is to it. Please, please, for the love of GOD, DO NOT EVER refer to Christian cage as the "De facto" or the "unofficial" or the ANYTHING "TNA World Champion", until he actually you know wins the TNA World Title. 41.245.177.237 (talk) 09:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a problem with your logic. You don't know when the belt was made. The belt was probably being made during the Title match. So Cage could be a world champion if you go by that because they needed the belt by the next day. A belt takes longer than a few hours to make. Also TNA needed a champion. With him no longer being NWA champion. TNA calls him the TNA Champion. Then declair the NWA belt the TNA belt as they do today. Everytime they ever talk of someone winning the title at a certain point they say TNA World Champion. Also if you watched the iMPACT! after Sacrifice you would see that Angle was stirpped of the belt and they never mentioned Cage as a NWA Champion. They called Cage the TNA Champion on iMPACT when refering to him being at Sacrifice and losing the title. So they called Cage and Angle both TNA Champions. Also TNA never said that at Slammiversary the first ever TNA Champion would be declaired. They said the first ever undisputed champion would be declaired. So we don't know when the belt was made. Cage was TNA's World Champion walking into Sacrifice and not the NWA's. Angle walked out of Sacrifice the new TNA Champion. And when Angle was on iMPACT he was the disputed TNA World Champion. Not until Slammiversary was he the Undisputed TNA World Champion.--WillC 09:46, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument falls flat with all the "probably"s etc They already had a TNA belt BEFORE Sacrifice, but chose to use the NWA belt instead. Likewise with the tag belts. TNA also NEVER referred to Cage as TNA Champion BEFORE May 14, or at any point during or before Sacrifice. And the reason they called Cage "TNA" Champion on Impact! was because they had severed all ties with the NWA. And they were trying to establish a new belt. Also some guy a few posts back pointed out that Cage was "TNA's Champion", but he was NOT "The TNA Champion". When Ken Shamrock was NWA Champion, he was also "TNA's Champion". But he's not listed. They also said the FIRST PURE TNA Champion would be declared at Slammiversary. In other words the first TNA Champion, as opposed to another World Champion competing in TNA. Although it obviously wasn't, TNA considered Cage to still be NWA Champion at Sacrifice, and that Angle won the NWA title, and then result was overturned the next day. Only AFTER this did the "TNA World Title" get mentioned. You are using the flawed "Cage wasn't NWA Champion any more, nut TNA recognized him as their World Champions...so he's TNA World Champion". Just as the NWA can state that on May 13 2007 they stripped Cage, so TNA can state that the TNA belt did not yet exist on May 13. SEriously dude, you're trying to argue that somebody held a title that hadnt even been created yet. Who was the President of the USA in 1066? Who won the Oscar for best actor in 1898? Who was TNA Champion on May 13 2007? 41.245.177.237 (talk) 10:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I ask again how do you know when the belt was created? How do you know? How do you know? How do you know? You don't. You think you know but you don't really know. I never said the belt was already made during the title match. I said that belt was being made during the title match possibly. Here is the thing, He had to be somebodies champion. He was TNA's Champion at Sacrifice even if they did't call him the TNA World Heavyweight Champion. He couldn't be the NWA's. So he must be TNA's.--WillC 21:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He was WCW's world champion. Plain and simple. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 00:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But you have deliberately (AGAIN) ignored the only valid issue: THERE WAS NO SUCH THING A A "TNA WORLD TITLE" ON MAY 13 2007 Anything else is meaningless. It does not matter whether the belt was made. Someone else already posted this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=M676jgrlLj8

Get it? Yes he was "TNA's Champion" but he was NOT NOT NOT the "TNA Champion". TNA only announced for the first ever time on an Impact! AFTER Sacrifice that they WERE GOING TO create a NEW Title called the "TNA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP" and that the first ever Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary 2007. What part of that do you not understand? It doesn't make any difference when Trobich and the NWA stripped Cage of the belt, the ONLY issue is that TNA had not yet even created the concept of the TNA World Title, and had not yet announced that such a belt even existed!!!!!!!!! Yes Cage was the "world champion in TNA", but HE WAS NOT THE TNA WORLD CHAMPION. 41.245.178.144 (talk) 06:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again you ignore the fact that you don't know when the title was made. Also you are wrong. The first Champion was not crowned at Slammiversary. The first undisputed TNA World Champion would be crowned. The new belt was on Impact that week. They never said they were creating a new belt. Also the belt had to be made by the next day since TNA taped a episode of Impact the next day. The new belts were announced on the next day's TNA Today. So on May 14 the new belts were already around. So between the morning on May 13 and the afternoon of May 14 the belts had to be created.--WillC 07:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First and foremost, the TNA World Heavyweight Championship and the NWA World Heavyweight Championship are not related in anyway other than the minor fact that the NWA title was at one point defended in TNA, therefore, former NWA Champions crowned during the title's time in TNA will not be recognized as also being former TNA Champions on Wikipedia.
Secondly, the NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship hours before Sacrifice, not right after the event, not the day after, not two days, but hours before the event, and as a result, the championship match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title.
Finally, the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion as recognized by the promotion is indeed Kurt Angle. This article does not dispute that. However, the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion by omission is Christian Cage.

Now that we got that out of the way, let me elaborate a little more on the three points just mentioned.

There is no question that TNA considers former NWA Champions in TNA to also be former TNA World Heavyweight Champions, and that is their prerogative. Unfortunately they made that decision a little too late. You see, when Angle won the TNA World Heavyweight Championship at Slammiversary TNA promptly chose to consider Kurt Angle as being the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion. It was only recently (that being a few months ago) that TNA began considering former NWA Champions crowned during that title's time in TNA also former TNA World Heavyweight Champions, and with that, two fatal errors were committed. The first being (as stated above) that the TNA and NWA World Heavyweight Championships are two separate titles, are in no way related, and neither can hold claim to the other's history because of it. The other being that what TNA did is revisionism, and while it is true that revisionism is no stranger to the professional wrestling industry, it is nonetheless against our project's policy to ignore events as they accurately happened and follow retroactive continuity instead. With this established, this article cannot conform to TNA's revised history. However, it is not against policy to make note of TNA's changes, which is why TNA's current view on the title's history is noted in the article.
The NWA did in fact strip Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship on the morning of May 13, hours before Sacrifice aired. There was no "rights" to the title that TNA had until midnight when the NWA made their announcement as others who keep bringing up this same old subject to this talk page time and time again tend to believe and use as an argument. The fact is that the NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship before Sacrifice could take place and therefore, regardless of the physical belt Cage carried to the ring and regardless of what Jeremy Borash announced him as, the match was not for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship.
With that said, the question is, what title was defended at Sacrifice? The answer to this is simple, but to understand it you have to do a really difficult thing that intelligent people would do (other than reading this entire post word for word). That being surpassing the casual fan's ability to only remember recent months of history, and going way further back. I'm talking about May 13, 2007 through June 17, 2007. You see, at Sacrifice, other than Borash's ring announcing,[3] [4] the entire match made absolutely no mention of Christian being the NWA World Heavyweight Champion but instead referred to him as "the heavyweight champion of the world." When the event concluded after a controversial finish and Kurt Angle was named the victor, on that week's Impact Angle not only referred to himself (and was referred to) as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion but also held the belt representing that title. However on that same day, Jim Cornette stripped Angle of the title due to the controversial end of the match that resulted in Cage and Sting holding claim to the title, and declared that an undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary. [5] [6] Eventually, it would soon be shown that TNA did not end up considering Angle's controversial match at Sacrifice one for the TNA title and it was only after Slammiversary that TNA referred to Angle as the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion without argument. So the simple answer to the question, and it may be hard to understand at first, is that that the title that was defended at Sacrifice, the title that Angle controversially won, the title that Angle gloated about holding on the Impact after, was unofficially the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Why? Because the same title that was defended after the NWA title was taken away, the same title that gave Angle claim to being the TNA World Heavyweight Champion after the match at Sacrifice, the same title Cornette stripped and led him to make the King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary, eventually and officially became the official TNA World Heavyweight Championship.

In conclusion, the fact of the matter is this. Due to the NWA stripping Cage of the NWA title, by omission Christian Cage is unofficially the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. However, Kurt Angle is the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 08:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all I was thinking that you wrote that whole thing, But when I got to part where you were calling people dumb I remembered you used that before. You went to the arcives of the talk page and got that. Reusing, smart. It worked last time. Hopefully this ends the subject because it has been done time and time again. Cage was a unoffical champion, lets leave it at that. --WillC 08:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Really? I called people dumb? Anyway yeah I'm not going to waste my time on this again. Its like a never ending cycle. I think I'll just stick to doing this from now on. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 09:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You yourself have just stated that the NWA title and the TNA title are TWO DIFFERENT BELTS. You also declare it revisionism that anyone declared as being a former NWA Champion in NWA was a TNA Champion. Look at the youtube link. See, TNA declared that Cage was the NWA Champion. Of course he was not. He had been stripped earlier that day. But the central issue is that TNA at no point during his reign made any reference whatsoever to Cage NOT being NWA Champion any more, and more importantly to Cage being TNA Champion, or even there being a TNA title.

Your next step is to state the seriously flawed "Angle beat Cage, the next night Angle was TNA etc etc" But the same Impact! they also declared Team 3D to be the TNA Tag Team Champions. Fair enough. The problem was they also repeatedly stated that Team 3D hd won those TNA Tag Titles from LAX at Lockdown the month before! See...retconning. The point is this: At no point DURING Cage's reign was he ever announced as "TNA World Champion." At no point DURING Cage's reign was a "TNA World Title" even hinted at. TNA made it clear that they still considered Cage to still be the valid NWA World Champion. And since the NWA Championship and the TNA Championship are 2 different things, and since the TNA Championship didn't exist yet, it naturally follows that Cage could not have been TNA Champion, even unofficially.

Likewise, Angle's "victory" was declared null and void the next night. Meaning the official result "in the record books" was a no-contest, non-finish. So why is ANGLE still listed? Is Dusty Rhodes' Starrcade 1985 "victory" listed on the NWA Title page? Is RVD's 2002 "victory" over the Undertaker for the Undisputed WWE Title listed on the WWE World Championship page?

Here's what happened....TNA had for several weeks promoted (and been legally allowed to do so) an NWA World Title match, featuring NWA World Champion Christian Cage. However the NWA/TNA business relationship ended shortly before the match, and the NWA stripped Cage of the NWA Title. However, TNA for whatever reason, continued to recognize Cage as the valid NWA Champion going into the match, and the match as being for the NWA Title. Angle seemingly "won" the match but this "victory" was overturned the next night as the result was controversial, and not recognized by the designated official. meaning Angle didn't win squat at Sacrifice 2007. However Cage wasn't granted the NWA belt back because a)Although Angle never really won, Cage had indeed lost (yeah that does sound pretty lame) and b)the NWA/TNA business relationship had ended. TNA then announced the creation of their own TNA World Title, with the first pure, undisputed etc etc TNA World Champion to be crowned at Slammiversary.

Christian Cage is not the first TNA World Champion by omission. He is not the de facto Champion, he is not the virtual champion. he is not the unofficial champion. He did not hold that title, because that title did not exist at that time, and TNA (wrongly and possibly illegally) continued to recognize him as holding another title,which they of course had no right to do. Sure on May 14(ie AFTER Cage's reign had ended) they retroactively called Cage a "former TNA World Champion", but then they claimed everyone from Shamrock on was a former "TNA World Champion". Which is revisionism.

Kurt Angle is a 2-time former TNA World Champion. From Slammiversary to Bound For Glory. And then from shortly after Bound For Glory to Lockdown. He never held the title BEFORE Slammiversary because a)that belt didn't exist when he was supposedly "TNA's World Champion" and b)whatever title he supposedly held, the "victory" was overturned, declared null and void etc the next night. You never heard of a Dusty Finish?

What we are left with then is this question....for the few hours after Cage was stripped of the NWA Title until the end of Sacrifice (when the record books declare the title being null and void), what was Christian Cage? Since the very concept of a "TNA World Title" did not exist until THE FOLLOWING DAY, we can rule out Christian Cage being "TNA World Champion", even unofficially.We are left with the simplest (and correct) answer.....TNA were falsely showing/selling a bogus NWA Title match, which they had no jurisdiction over.And that does NOT make Cage "TNA World Champion". Sure, he was the "World Champion in TNA", but for the billionth time....BEING "WORLD CHAMPION IN TNA" AND BEING "TNA WORLD CHAMPION" ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! Everyone from Ken Shamrock on was "World Champion in TNA" , but as we agree we can not call them "former TNA World Champions" as that is revisionism. TNA calls Cage a "former TNA World Champion". They also call everyone from Ken Shamrock on a former TNA World Champion. That's revisionism plain and simple. And since wikipedia apparently doesn't consider revisionism legitimate information, anyone who held any World Title in TNA before May 14 2007 is therefore NOT a former TNA World Champion, officially, unoficially, or anything else. 41.245.178.144 (talk) 09:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read the links. Find something else to do. Go to sleep. Goodnight. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 09:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and in case you were wondering. We know you've changed IP. However its obvious that you are the same user as the other. Therefore further violations of WP:3RR will still result in a block due to the blatant sock puppeteering. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 09:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't help it if my server/operator/whatever changes my IP. I have no control over it. Also all this "new stuff" was attempted to be posted before the "dumb" comments. I wrote a LONG piece, but couldn't post because of "edit conflict". I'm trying to remember everything I said and post it in short bits. i know it makes me look annoying, but there's just a bit more... 41.245.178.144 (talk) 09:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well you keep at it. We'll continue this tomorrow. Night^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 09:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Uhh before you go any further and practically destroy this talk page's history with your "one edit per 30 seconds" responses, you do know that there is a Show preview bottom right next to the Send page one right? Yeah you might want to try that before sending your edits in. Saves space and time really. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 10:00, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, thanks for the tip. I wasnt aware of that. It is frustrating writing a long piece, taking up MAJOR time, then being stumped when someone calls someone else "dumb". Hopefully people will actually READ this. That's all, I think. 41.245.178.144 (talk) 10:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, one last point. Sure I may be somewhat clueless when it comes to posting edits, but that doesn't have any impact on the topic at hand. Also some of your comments appear to be violations of WP:CIVIL. 41.245.178.144 (talk) 10:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just giving you some advice as you seem to be inexperienced here. However you want to interpret that advice is up to you. Regardless...

From WP:AD

The accuracy of an article may be a cause for concern if:

it contains a lot of unlikely information, without providing references.

Have you noticed the number of 3rd party citations on there?

it contains information which is particularly difficult to verify.

The article is formatted per Wikipedia:Verifiability

in, for example, a long list, some errors have been found, suggesting that the list as a whole may need further checking.

The sources in the article have been established as adequate 3rd party sources which are preferred per Wikipedia:Reliable sources

it has been written (or edited) by a user who is known to write inaccurately on the topic.

You questioning WP:PW? A wikiproject that has created over 90 Wikipedia:Featured articles in Wikipedia's entirety?

Due to this article not falling into these points as stated in WP:AD the template has been removed. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 10:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not questioning WP:PW. It's questioning the accuracy of calling Cage a TNA World Champion. You're trying to confuse the issue. Also, the references all appear to be links to websites run by people who have no connection to the business, and thus are likely to post stuff the way they see it rather than the way it is. The only truly reliable sources are the NWA piece(stripping Cage), and the TNA page(which are dead links). These "references" do not appear to be reliable. However, someone further up posted a link to the TNA page which states their list of Champions/History. The page makes no reference of any title changing hands on May 13 2007. Of course they also refer to all titles from June 2002 onwards as being TNA Titles. Even if you dispute the Cage issue, note that Kurt Angle's first victory for any title in TNA is stated as being at Slammiversary 2007. Also, yet again, the created bit through the youtube link while possibly being WP:OR was still taken directly from the show itself, and makes note of the various "NWA" references. That would appear to be more valid than what some IWC newspage has to say. Somebody some time back asked what PWI thinks about this. While PWI are far from the final source on anything, it would be interesting to see their take on this. Near;y all the links through the article go to IWC sites, not established wrestling newssources like PWI or Power Slam or the like. Even the Torch or Figure 4 Weekly would seem more valid. Merely stating "This is the way it is, and if you disagree, I'm not even going to ask why, I'm just going to threaten to block you from editing, and revert any edits you may make to the article" seems wrong.

The links others(not me) gave were:

the youtube link showing the match being referred to as "NWA"

TNA's OWN Title History page

A request that someone checks the PWI Almanac.

Lastly, just because people may have decided something a while back doesn't mean the information is rock-solid. That's why people are supposed to be able to edit stuff on wikipedia. An article may contain an honest error, and it can be changed. Just because a small group of very vocal people have all decided on something, that should not make it Gospel. And for every fan's "title history" page showing Cage as first champion, I'm sure there are 10 stating Angle as such. 41.245.178.144 (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those are Third Party and Secondary sources, which are preferred by Wikipedia per WP:PSTS^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 11:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And one of the sites lists Cage and Sting as co-World Champion at Sacrifice? What does that mean? Do you have any mention BY TNA THEMSELVES prior to the end of the Angle-Cage-Sting match of Cage being "TNA World Champion"? Also, I remember an argument on one of the NWA talk pages when someone stated that titlehistories.com is NOT a reliable source. These are all fan sites. i could post hundreds which contradict this version. Or these versions, as the sources you mentioned contradict each other already. 41.245.178.144 (talk) 11:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The whole argument of this anonymous poster is null and void by the fact that one night the NWA World Title belt is representing TNA's World Title, and the next night Kurt Angle walks out with the TNA World Heavyweight Championship belt around his waist and him calling himself the new TNA World Heavyweight Champion. So therefore, there's your direct connection from the "Interim" World Title at Sacrifice 2007 to the new TNA World Heavyweight Championship. You cannot deny this fact, it transitioned from NWA - Interim - TNA. Since really we're not going to bother to make a page for the interim title which was only used for one night, the only logical and yes, factual way of looking at this is that the Interim Title from Sacrifice, which transformed into the TNA World Heavyweight Championship(and belt) overnight, are one in the same. TNA just doesn't recognize that reign from Sacrifice simply because if you go by either TNA or the NWA's history, Cage lost both of these titles on the same day while coming from an NWA Title reign into the Unbranded World Heavyweight Championship reign which TNA today doesn't have in their history. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 18:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But at the time Cage heled the belt it was clearly NOT the "TNA World Title". By the same token Team 3D's NWA Titles "Transformed" into the TNA Titles, but we cam't claim they were the TNA Titles all along, or that they were TNA Titles BEFORE TNA acknowledged them as such. The first EVER mention of any TNA Title was AFTER Cage had lost the three-way. Can you find ANY reliable link from BEFORE May 14, 2007 which refers to Cage (or anyone else for that matter) as specifically being "TNA Champion". Of course not, as the belt did not yet exist. Also, Angle never won anything at Sacrifice as the result was overturned.Just like any Dusty Finish. And Cage never got the belt back, because only then were TNA going to create a new TNA World Champion. But since Angle's victory never really existed, the "new" TNA Champion would be the first one ever. I think your problem is that you feel ripped off having spent money to watch a World Title match at Sacrifice, and then what you got was a three-way with no real Title(they still called it "NWA"), and a crappy finish that was overturned the next night. 41.245.178.144 (talk) 07:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. You're wasting your time. The small group of about 5 posters have decided that they want Christian cage to be listed as the first TNA Champion, and that is that. The whole "per consensus" bit is actually quite laughable. Whenever anyone disagrees, they are called "moron", "shit for brains", or threatened with blocking. Despite OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary, they refuse to acknowledge that Cage could not POSSIBLY have held a title before that title even existed. And when pressed for some sort of actual, you know, references or proof that Cage could ever have been TNA World Champion (even unofficially) they cut-and-paste some rambling piece about "intelligent people can do this" which is self-contradictory, and ADMITS that the TNA Title did not exist until after Sacrifice 2007 was over and done with! As you noted, they also post links to Internet fan sites, that could have been created by some kid in his parents' basement, which do not all agree on the facts, and which can not be called "encyclopedia-level reliable". I'm not so sure either that TonyfreakingAlmada, BulletProof3:16, Unquestionabletruth, Wrestlinglover, Les boys, and WillC are not all the same person, with multiple accounts. So let it lie. The "disputed" tag was added, the numerous errors have been pointed out for more than a year by various people(check the archives), and there are countless sites out there that show the REAl history of the TNA World Title. There's no links to sites calling Cage TNA World Champion on or before May 13 2007, because no such references ever existed! Dr Rgne (talk) 08:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Listen Dr. Rigne, I was the only one who called people names. Don't lump everybody else in that same category with me. I may be a huge jerk to people like you but honestly you kind of deserved it for not even reading our rebuttals in full and just picking through and finding the parts you didn't like and posting 5 page long replies to them that no one would bother to read and no one would bother to make note of. And we're not listing Cage as the first champion, he's the first unofficial champion if you can't read the chart correctly. Why? Because he was the first unofficial champion. He couldn't have been NWA champion that night, and they didn't call him TNA Champion, so what title did he hold? Unofficially, the TNA one, which only debuted the night after around Kurt Angle's waist, SPAWNED overnight from Christian losing it in the Triple Threat. There's your evidence enough just like I said that the unofficial/Unbranded World Heavyweight Title from Sacrifice is one and the same with the current TNA World Title. It's not that hard to understand. And per consensus is way more than 5 people. This debate went through this page, the NWA Title page, and the Professional Wrestling wikiproject page over a year ago. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 14:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "5 page long" replies were to make sure that every aspect had been covered and there could be no doubt what the real story is/was. Yes, Angle's belt spawned the TNA Title, but Team 3D's Tag belts spawned the TNA Tag Titles. And Team 3D aren't recognized as being TNA Tag Champions until May 14 2007. In other words the day after Sacrifice. Also the unofficial belt was the unofficial NWA belt. Remember, you and your friends have gone on and on about they being different titles. When Sacrifice went down, TNA were still referring to the titles as NWA Titles. Yes, they had been stripped by the NWA, but what is clear is that TNA still regarded them as NWA Titles, NOT TNA Titles. Only the next day did the very idea of "TNA Titles" ever come into existence. Your problem is that you have to think that Cage held a title going into the triple-threat match, because he was carrying a belt(the NWA one by the way) and was recognized as (NWA again) World Champion, only by TNA. There was no "unbranded" title. It was TNA recognizing Cage as NWA Champion, even after the NWA had stripped him. Then only the next day did the NWA Titles "spawn" TNA Titles. There is no Unbranded Title, it's the fake NWA Title. And that most definitely is not "the unofficial TNA World Title". Dr Rgne (talk) 15:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

YOU'RE WRONG! I watched Sacrifice live, they never called the Tag Titles the NWA World Tag Titles, they were called the World Tag Team Championship. Go watch it for yourself. TNA covered themself in not calling the titles NWA titles except for Borash's screwup in the main event. Please sir, if you're going to get your panties in a bunch about this non-issue, at least be informed of the facts. The only times you ever heard NWA during that entire PPV was during the main event in-ring introductions from Borash, and even so, IT WAS A MISTAKE! I have said this all before, I win, you lose, you're arguing for the sake of it, you have no proof to back it up, while I do. Go watch Sacrifice 07. Only once during the entire event was one of those two titles refereed to as an NWA Title, and even so, it was a mistake! I don't know how many ways I can tell you this but if you were to ever watch TNA Sacrifice 2007 whether it be on DVD today or if you watched it live, they made a point not to even call the tag or world heavyweight titles by any promotion's name. And only once during that entire show did they refer to either of these as NWA Titles, during main event in-ring introductions by Jeremy Borash he called Christian Cage the NWA Heavyweight...CHAMPION OF THE WORLD! tHE INSANT CLASSIC! CHRISTIANNNN....CAAAAGE! TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 01:03, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Explain this

1)http://youtube.com/watch?v=M676jgrlLj8

2)Why were Cage and Team 3D still carrying the NWA Belts? (And please no garbage about the metalworker still making the belts during the PPV)

3)Did Tenay or West attempt to "correct" Borash's "mistake" after he said NWA?

4)Did anyone at any point during or before Sacrifice mention TNA Titles?

5)The next night on Impact!, Cornette mentioned for the first time that TNA were creating TNA Titles. True or false?

6)After promoting the Sacrifice matches for ages as NWA matches, did TNA, either on their website, or during the PPV ever mention to the fans that that was no longer the case?

7)Does TNA even acknowledge Angle's Sacrifice victory as being an official win, or was it overturned(meaning he didn't mean shit)?

8)When TNA are speaking about Cage do they call him a 2-time or 3-time Champion?

Dr Rgne (talk) 07:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1) Here's how the events really transpired, not the cheap cut you keep using. [7] [8]

2) They were obviously carrying the NWA belts as they had nothing else to show for their title matches and they were only stripped hours before the show. A belt is not a title. It only represents one.

3) Tenay and West had no business correcting Borash as it was unnecessarily to do so. Commentators don't do that. Not even in WWE when they call Triple H a former 12 time WWE Champion. It's not their business to correct, only to read out of their scripts and interpret the action.

4) No one in TNA was going to mention the TNA championships until after they transitioned from the NWA situation. You continuing to use that as an argument is baseless and irrelevant.

5) False. The next night on Impact Cornette only mention that a TNA Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary. The words "for the first time" never came out of his mouth.[9] scroll down to Thursday, May 17th, 2007

6) On the back of programs, on the bottom of posters, on the fine print of advertisements the words "card subject to change" are embedded. Not just in TNA but in every promotion out there, small medium or large. Promoters would be committing career suicide if they didn't add this to their forms of promoting their business events. Sacrifice, a PPV like you said that had been promoted for ages to feature NWA title matches obviously wasn't going to announce a change in the card due to a technicality that had occurred hours before show time. Had the stripping happened days before, it would have been a necessity by law to announce an official change. One can argue about how things transpired in TNA management after they got word of the NWA's announcement but the fact remains is that by Law, as in by legal contract, TNA no longer had permission to use the NWA name, likeness, or property, in any way shape or form. This was followed by the show itself with the exception of Borash's slip. And yes slips do happen, sort of how the WWF initials sometimes slip out of people's mouths. But like all things this was corrected as seen on the official Sacrifice DVD [10] Not only do we see the official TNA Championship belt on the cover but also the matches themselves don't even make a mention of the NWA. They are only referred to as World Heavyweight and World Tag Team championship matches. The fact is, Borash's slip, was obviously a mistake and the further use of his slip to make your argument is rendered not only false but now irrelevant.

7) As things stand now, TNA does not recognize Angle's victory an official win. Unfortunately for your argument again, that’s not how things stood in TNA land when the event occurred. Luckily there are people out there how save articles in archives so here goes scroll down to Thursday, May 17th, 2007 The article has since been deleted by TNA. However, archived note from TNAwrestling.com CONFIRMS that TNA did declare Angle the winner of the match at the time as it states that he was stripped of the title. And here's why you will never be able to remove that note. Because it is obvious that TNA did declare Angle's victory at Sacrifice an Official Win, Wikipedia's base policy forces us to interpret our information in articles by how they transpired. Because of this, we note reigns that have now been deemed unofficial and in turn we note the changes that occurred that lead to them being declared unofficial. It is an inescapable, undeniable, and dare I say, unquestionable truth that your attempts at removing the information are and will forever be futile.

8)When they refer to any former champion in TNA they refer to them as TNA Champions. It doesn't matter how many times they do. TNA has the right to call their champions however they wish to call them. The fact, however, remains. This isn't TNA, and the information here will be listed as it happened, how it happened, and when it happen. Like we've stated time and time again. We keep things in neutral harmony. We note reigns that have now been deemed unofficial and in turn we note the changes that occurred that lead to them being declared unofficial. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 09:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's all fine and well, but the fact remains that the first time ever that anyone was specifically and unambiguously referred to as being a TNA-branded Champion was May 14 2007(even in the flashback Angle was holding the NWA belt). The first specific mention of there ever even being TNA Champions was on May 14 2007. The first time TNA-branded belts were ever seen was May 14 2007. Now the question is why? It's a no-brainer as TNA made their own legitimate decision that the TNA-branded titles/bltes etc would only be announced/debut/come into existence as of May 14 2007. Thus the TNA-branded title lineages only begin on May 14 2007. It is not my place, nor yours, nor anyone else's to dictate to TNA when their own title lineages began. And in this case it is not TNA revisionism. TNA COULD, had they so wanted, to send Cage out to the ring with the new TNA belt, but they still called him NWA Champion, still, had him carry the NWA belt. Likewise, it would also have made sense after the match for Angle to hold the new TNA belt up, but no he raised the same NWA belt. Even on the flashback on Impact! the next night Angle was shown celebrating with the NWA belt. Belts do not equal titles, but each belt represents a title. If HHH came out on Smackdown this week with the Big Gold belt people would be confused as that represents a different World Title. In TNA's case however it would have been easy to have Cage either have the new belt, be called "TNA Champion", or both. But they did neither. Likewise Team 3D were only referred to as TNA Champions on May 14, only had TNA belts on May 14, even though they won at Sacrifice, and it was treated as an ongoing reign. Clearly TNA AT THE TIME made it clear that the specific TNA-branded titles only began on May 14. It is not your place nor mine to tell them that there were TNA titles on May 13.

And that's the main issue I have. You are making it look as though TNA are deliberately being deceptive and underhanded. Anyone who visits this article, or the Jason Reso one, will come away feeling that Cage was indeed TNA World Champion on the day of May 13 2007, and that TNA are a bunch of cunts for not recognizing him as such. They will then feel TNA are untrustworthy and despicably. So it is in a sense a slander on the good name and integrity of TNA by listing Cage as first TNA Champion, when TNA recognize no such thing. And they will never recognize Cage as such, as the TNA titles did not exist before May 14 2007. Dr Rgne (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the millionth and a half time. We know the TNA World Heavyweight Championship was not created and official commissioned until May 14 2007. That has already been established. We are not listing cage as the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion and that is something you keep failing to realize. This article specifically states that Cage was referred to as the World Heavyweight Champion. Now the only reason we are listing this reign as well as Angle's in this article is because there is not justification to create another article for the "interim" championship that was contested at Sacrifice. Anyway you want to look at it, this interim title and the TNA World Heavyweight title that was commissioned on May 14 share lineage, which is another reason that contributes to why both Cage's and Angle's reigns are listed here. The Jason Reso article does no such thing in making readers think that he was the first TNA Champion. The article clearly states that due to being stripped of the NWA title, at Sacrifice he was TNA's world heavyweight champion, not the TNA World Heavyweight Champion. How and why you keep ignoring what’s actually stated in these articles is beyond me.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 09:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The misconception here is that you think a belt can represent only its designated championship. In reality a belt can represent any championship it is designated. If Triple H were to come on SmackDown with the Big Gold Belt and WWE called it the WWE Championship, then it would be the WWE Championship. Again a belt is only a physical representation of a title that it is designated to represent. Take again the Big Gold Belt for example. For most of its history it represented the NWA title. Now that its in WWE is it still the NWA title? No because the belt has now been designated to represent WWE's World Heavyweight Championship.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 10:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No offense dude but that was a bad argument. That people will think TNA is untrustworthy for not recognizing Cage's reign. Also Cage is a former TNA World Champion. Doesn't mater if he was the unofficial or not. His NWA reign counts as him being a TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Also it doesn't matter if the belt was made a hour, a day, a week, or a year after or before Sacrifice he was the Unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion. He was TNA's Champion walking in to Sacrifice so on that note he was the World Heavyweight champion of TNA. Not the NWA. It doesn't mater about what belt he held. The World Heavyweight Championship (WWE) of the WWE was represented by the old WCW belt until around mid 2003 when the The World Heavyweight Championship has nothing to do with WCW. So what he was referred to as the NWA World Heavyweight Champion. It was the belt he was holding. Also there was never any mention of making the belts. On Impact! the next day they never said at Slammiversary new belts will be made. They just said the Undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion will be crowned because Cage was still technically Champion and Angle was too even though he never really won the match. The Sacrifice match was really a double victory for Sting and Angle. So then really Cage retained because on a double pin it is considered a no contest. Champion retains in that. Technically everyone that walked out of Sacrifice from the World title match was a unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion.

So we've established that it doesn't mater when the belts were made.

It doesn't mater what belt he held at Sacrifice.

Cage was a unofficial champion.

As my friend up there said, this isn't TNA.--WillC 10:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But the other guy just ADMITTED that the TNA titles did not exist until May 14, and that Cage was not TNA Champion, he was Champion in TNA. So how can Cage be listed in the "List of TNA Champions"? The List should begin with Angle, but have a paragraph mentioning the Cage situation. Also, the Big Gold belt repesented the NWA Title, the WCW Title, the WCW International Title, The World Title? So what? At each time it was made clear that it now represented a different title. TNA never said "TNA Champion" when Cage held the NWA belt. And evryone was TNA Champion? Eh? Dr Rgne (talk) 10:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For this entire discussion we've always said that the TNA World Heavyweight title was commissioned on May 14. As I stated above, the only reason we are listing this reign as well as Angle's in this article is because there is not justification to create another article for the "interim" championship that was contested at Sacrifice. Anyway you want to look at it, this interim title and the TNA World Heavyweight title that was commissioned on May 14 share lineage, which is another reason that contributes to why both Cage's and Angle's reigns are listed here.

"the Big Gold belt represented the NWA Title, the WCW Title, the WCW International Title, The World Title? So what? At each time it was made clear that it now represented a different title. TNA never said "TNA Champion" when Cage held the NWA belt."

With that said, TNA never said "NWA Champion" when Cage held the NWA belt at Sacrifice either. Borash did and we've already established that it was a mistake that was later corrected. Look, understand this. TNA listed all former NWA champions under TNA as former TNA champions. But due to them being two different titles, those reigns won’t be listed in that section. Its just how WP:PW handles these situations. Point 2, Cage was not the TNA World Heavyweight Champion at Sacrifice, but he was TNA's world heavyweight champion. Consider it an interim title, consider it what you want, the fact is there is nothing to justify the creation of another article to list this single reign or even Angle's. Because of this we list those reigns in this section and at the same time make it clear that the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion was official declared to be Kurt Angle at Slammiversary. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 10:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody ever said anything about a separate article. Borash said "NWA Champion", and nobody (including Jeremy himself) ever said he'd made a mistake. So that hardly establishes anything on your part. Yes, of course mention should be made of Cage on May 13, and yes the titles hare the same lineage, but under the "Title History" section, which lists title reigns, Cage should not be listed even as unofficial Champion. We agree that Cage was never TNA World Champion, we agree that he was no longer NWA Champion, we agree that the Sacrifice situation and May 13 2007 should be mentioned, but where we differ is that I believe that Cage's "unofficial reign" should be removed from the box that lists TNA World Champions, and a paragraph written explaining the whole Cage/Sacrifice/NWA/TNA affair. Dr Rgne (talk) 11:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you actually even read replies?

"6) On the back of programs, on the bottom of posters, on the fine print of advertisements the words "card subject to change" are embedded. Not just in TNA but in every promotion out there, small medium or large. Promoters would be committing career suicide if they didn't add this to their forms of promoting their business events. Sacrifice, a PPV like you said that had been promoted for ages to feature NWA title matches obviously wasn't going to announce a change in the card due to a technicality that had occurred hours before show time. Had the stripping happened days before, it would have been a necessity by law to announce an official change. One can argue about how things transpired in TNA management after they got word of the NWA's announcement but the fact remains is that by Law, as in by legal contract, TNA no longer had permission to use the NWA name, likeness, or property, in any way shape or form. This was followed by the show itself with the exception of Borash's slip. And yes slips do happen, sort of how the WWF initials sometimes slip out of people's mouths. But like all things this was corrected as seen on the official Sacrifice DVD [11] Not only do we see the official TNA Championship belt on the cover but also the matches themselves don't even make a mention of the NWA. They are only referred to as World Heavyweight and World Tag Team championship matches. The fact is, Borash's slip, was obviously a mistake and the further use of his slip to make your argument is rendered not only false but now irrelevant."^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 16:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TNA actually did last year put title history page up to reflect that Cage's "interim" reign was a TNA Title reign and Angle's win that night as a TNA Title win, but they took it off the website. Thus it's revisionism on their part, and thus, now that they don't use that same history variation for the TNA World Title, it definitely is fair game to use here. That's one big little detail that I forgot to note. TNA did note the end of the NWA Business Relationship, and also listed Cage at same point in their title history as a 3-time World Champion(2 NWA, 1 TNA) and Angle as having won the TNA title at Sacrifice but being stripped on Impact for the match at Slammiversary. Sorry Rgne but there's a lot of stuff you just don't know. John Cena may have been the first real TNA World Champion for all we know! TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 16:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I did read the "Card subject to change" reply of yours, but I fail to see how that is relevant. TNA DID use the NWA's name and the likeness/property (the belts). The Sacrifice DVD has the TNA beltt on the front, but that belt was NOT used at the actual PPV itself. The same way WWE released a DVD of classic WWE(well WWF) matches with the scratch WWE logo on the cover. And how WCW released a VHS of 80's matches with the Wolfpac on the cover. So they still used the NWA nem, property, and likeness at the PPV, and the TNA belt became official after the PPV, but before the release date of the DVD. Also, to the other fellow, can you cite your source as to TNA originally recognizing Cage as a 2-time NWA and 1-time TNA Champion? If not it's just your word. Dr Rgne (talk) 17:41, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cover featured no mention of the NWA and only referred to the matches as World Heavyweight and World Tag Team title matches. It has been established that only Borash mentioned the NWA name and that it was a mistake. It has been established that the NWA and TNA world heavyweight championship were not defeneded at Sacrifice. The only thing that was defended was a World Heavyweight Championship. Because there is no other place to put this reign in, it will be listed here. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 21:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, apart from the "no mention of NWA" I agree fully. But the way it is presently done does indeed make it looks like Cage WAS indeed the TNA World Champion at Sacrifice. The point was: mention Cage's reign as the first solely TNA-recognized World Champion, but don't include him in the list of TNA Wolrd Champions, because, for the countless time, CAGE WAS NEVER TNA WORLD CHAMPION. Dr Rgne (talk) 07:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hang on. So you're admitting that Cage was never TNA World Champion, but are including him because it's more convenient this way? 41.245.190.156 (talk) 16:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the entire discussion the only thing we've said is that Cage was TNA's World Heavyweight Champion walking into Sacrifice. Not the TNA World Heavyweight Champion. His reign is listed here because 1) the interim title preceeded the TNA WHC and 2) no justification for a secondary article. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 18:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But you are in effect combining two separate and unrelated titles into a single article. One could say that the NWA World Title in TNA preceded the TNA World Title, and since TNA are recognizing it as one lineage, then that is justification to make Ken Shamrock the first listed TNA World Champion. If everyone here agrees that Cgae was NOT the TNA World Champion, then there can be no valid reason for including his reign in the article. 41.245.190.156 (talk) 12:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but see thats where you're argument fails yet again. The World Heavyweight Championship that was defended at Sacrifice is related to the official TNA World Heavyweight Championship, even more so than the NWA World Heavyweight Championship is related to the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. FACT is, Cage was stripped of the NWA title, and as a result was still forced to defend a World title and lost it to Angle. Cornette subsquently stripped Angle of that title and set up a tournament to crown a new World Heavyweight Champion, a title that became the TNA World Heavyweight Championship at Slammyversary. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 19:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget, Angle was wearing the TNA World Title belt on Impact after Sacrifice, they never explained the change, and also, he was calling himself TNA World Heavyweight Champion...from a night where a no name World Title was defended and lost. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 23:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a ridiculous argument. The TNA World Title only began on May 14 2007. Therefore it doesn't mean anything what led to the TNA World Title, what the precursor to the TNA World Title was etc. The first ever mention whatsoever of a TNA World Title was May 14 2007. Using your twisted logic it could be said that whoever the Governor of the Thirteen Colonies was in 1776 is the Unofficial First president of the USA because the Colonies preceded the USA, and became the USA. And as mentioned 10 million times here before, TNA were still calling Cage the "NWA" Champion at Sacrifice, not just a "Borash mistake"(and who came up with that ludicrous explanation anyway?) The first mention ever of a TNA World Champion was Angle. It means less than nothing what happened before the first mention, what preceded it, what led up to it, what gave birth to it etc etec etc The first TNA World Champion is the the first World Champion when TNA specifically called him as such. Not somebody holding a belt in TNA BEFORE there even was a TNA World Title~ 41.245.190.156 (talk) 09:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your arguments keep getting more and more ridiculous by the post. We've all had enough of your endless rants and tirades. With every post you have continued to be proven wrong time and time again, and with that you have wasted the time of numerous editors in our Wikiproject. Quite frankly the only options you're left with now since you seem obsessed with objecting the consensus are bringing this to a consensus vote or running off and create your own website to put all the information you want the way you look at it. The choice is yours. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 11:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have yet to make a conving case that the "Cage as first champion" is valid. All you have done is claim "consensus", and make personal insults. When confronted with the truth you make silly excuses like "Borash didn't know what he was saying", or threaten blocking because it doesn't follow your "consensus". You have never proved anyone wrong, you haven't actually proved anything at all. Please just answer this one question(and without cut-and-pasting some endless rant)...How can anyone be TNA Champion before there's even a TNA Championship? And please nothing about "Cage's unbraned World Title led to the TNA Title" or "the NWA blah blah blah". Just rationally and clearly, how can anyone be TNA Champion before there's even a TNA Championship?41.245.190.156 (talk) 12:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Borash didn't know what he was saying" - FOR THE LOVE OF GOD...

The NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship hours before Sacrifice, not right after the event, not the day after, not two days, but hours before the event, and as a result, the championship match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title.
Finally, the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion as recognized by the promotion is indeed Kurt Angle. This article does not dispute that. However, the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion by omission is Christian Cage.
The NWA did in fact strip Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship on the morning of May 13, hours before Sacrifice aired. There was no "rights" to the title that TNA had until midnight when the NWA made their announcement as others who keep bringing up this same old subject to this talk page time and time again tend to believe and use as an argument. The fact is that the NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship before Sacrifice could take place and therefore, regardless of the physical belt Cage carried to the ring and regardless of what Jeremy Borash announced him as, the match was not for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship.
With that said, the question is, what title was defended at Sacrifice? The answer to this is simple, but to understand it you have to do a really difficult thing that intelligent people would do (other than reading this entire post word for word). That being surpassing the casual fan's ability to only remember recent months of history, and going way further back. I'm talking about May 13, 2007 through June 17, 2007. You see, at Sacrifice, other than Borash's ring announcing,[12] [13] the entire match made absolutely no mention of Christian being the NWA World Heavyweight Champion but instead referred to him as "the heavyweight champion of the world." When the event concluded after a controversial finish and Kurt Angle was named the victor, on that week's Impact Angle not only referred to himself (and was referred to) as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion but also held the belt representing that title. However on that same day, Jim Cornette stripped Angle of the title due to the controversial end of the match that resulted in Cage and Sting holding claim to the title, and declared that an undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary. [14] [15] Eventually, it would soon be shown that TNA did not end up considering Angle's controversial match at Sacrifice one for the TNA title and it was only after Slammiversary that TNA referred to Angle as the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion without argument. So the simple answer to the question, and it may be hard to understand at first, is that that the title that was defended at Sacrifice, the title that Angle controversially won, the title that Angle gloated about holding on the Impact after, was unofficially the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Why? Because the same title that was defended after the NWA title was taken away, the same title that gave Angle claim to being the TNA World Heavyweight Champion after the match at Sacrifice, the same title Cornette stripped and led him to make the King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary, eventually and officially became the official TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Question answered, Case closed. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 08:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you merely cut-and-pasted the same thing again. So now everyone AGREES that Cage was NOT the TNA Champion. So why is he listed then? "Because the title Cage held after the NWA stripped him led to the TNA Title"? But the Title Cage had after the NWA stripped him was not the TNA Title. So why for the love of GOD is he listed as the first TNA Champion, when you've just ADMITTED that he was NEVER TNA Champion?! Yes, list the situation on May 13 as LEADING UP TO the TNA Title in the article, but please please please do NOT list Cage in the "List of TNA Champion" box. 41.245.190.156 (talk) 12:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, yeah, and that added "Question answered case closed" bit? You NEVER answered the question. You merely repeated the flimsy "Explanation" that was used before. As stated countless times before, the TNA World Title has a finite and indisputable starting point. That date is May 14 2007, as per TNA's official announcement and creation of their own World Title. It is not for you to dictate to TNA when their own World Title began!! So it means absolutely nothing what you say about May 13 or some surreal explanation as to what Cage was doing or what Borash was doing. The TNA World Title began on May 14 2007. Period. By "doing what intelligent people can do" you are inventing YOUR OWN version of events, that has nothing to do with reality or the ACTUAL beginning point of the TNA World Title. 41.245.190.156 (talk) 12:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To end this stupid debate once in for all. You don't need a belt to be champion i.e. OVW Hardcore Championship. He wasn't the NWA's Champion when he held the belt on Sunday May 13 2007. He was TNA's. I don't give a crap if he was called the NWA's or the belt wasn't around but he was TNA's World Champion no matter what. On that note he is a unofficial TNA Champion because he was TNA's Champion. The Slammiversary King of the mountain is about the first undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion. So first off it doesn't mater when the belt was made, it doesn't mater what he was called, because he was someone's Champion and that was TNA's. So he is a unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion.--WillC 20:53, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But he was NOT the TNA WORLD CHAMPION! This has been driven into the ground. Even you admit it. The TNA World Title only came into existence as of May 14 2007. Yes, he was "TNA's Champion. NOBODY is arguing with that. But he was also "TNA's Champion" since he won the 3-way against Sting and Abyss at Final Resolution 2007. It actually makes no difference whatsoever whether the NWA stripped Cage of their belt or not. The only thing that has any relevance is that the TNA World Title only came into being on May 14 2007, ie. AFTER the Cage=Sting-Angle match had ended the day before. Why do you keep going on and on about "the NWA stripped Cage" or "Angle was stripped of the title he won the day before"? The title Angle walked out with on Impact! was a DIFFERENT Title to the one Cage defended. Not just a physical belt, but a different championship, with a different lineage. And Cage's title as of Sacrifice was not an "interim world title". There never was any "interim world title". TNA continued to recognize Cage as NWA Champion, and that Angle won the NWA Championship. It doesn't matter that the NWA actually stripped Cage before the match, in TNA's eyes Cage was still NWA Champion, and Angle won the NWA Championship. Only the next day did Angle become TNA Champion. Even the article states that! Just like Team 3D may have been stripped of the NWA Tag Titles on May 13, but they only became TNA Tag Champions on May 14. And again there was no "interim title" between the NWA and TNA title reigns. I honestly don't get how some people can't udnerstand the difference between being a champion in TNA and being a TNA Champion. 41.245.190.156 (talk) 09:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because there is no difference. As I've said once before you don't need a belt to be champion. Being called the TNA World Heavyweight Champion is really no difference than being called TNA's World Heavyweight Champion. You're still TNA's champion. No difference what so ever. He is the unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion, leave it at that because he is. No matter how much to say "well he held the NWA belt, the TNA belt wasn't created. It wasn't until May 14 (which you can't prove)." Because Cage was TNA's Champion and that is what the TNA World Heavyweight title represents. TNA's Champion. It is one in the same. Cage and Angle are unoffical Champions.--WillC 09:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nay, nay and thrice nay. There is a HUGE difference between being TNA Champion, and Champion in TNA. Everyone from ken Shamrock onwards was Champion in TNA. Today TNA says that everyone from Shamrock on is a former TNA Champion, but wikipedia does not recognize them as such. Why? Because the TNA Title did not yet exist. If you look at any results from May 13 2007, it will still say "NWA". It means nothing that the NWA had actually stripped Cage, because TNA still called Cage "NWA", NOT "TNA". Also, it was only on the Impact! AFTER Sacrifice that Cornette said that TNA are creating new TNA Titles. I will try and find a youtube link or the like. I remember Cornette only saying on the May 14 Impact! that TNA were now going to create TNA-branded titles. So your somewhat surreal argument that Cage was champion in TNA, therefore he is the unofficial TNA Champion is null and void. Note these recaps(just 2 of thousands and certainly as valid as your ones):

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/results/tnappv/sacrifice07.html

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/results/tnaimpact/070517.html

http://www.penguinforum.com/miniclip.com/archive/index.php/t-12633.html

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2007/05/14/4178808.html

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2007/05/17/4189396.html

http://www.gerweck.net/sacrifice07.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080705140442AAVqow6

The first ever "TNA Champion" was on May 14 2007. Case closed. 41.245.190.156 (talk) 13:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First you might want to actually look up better information because Cornette never and I repeat never said they were creating new titles. Actually there is no difference. Either way you are TNA's World Champion. That is what the major title represents. Like the Tag Team Titles. You're the World Tag Team Champions of TNA. You're TNA's World Tag Team Champions. It is to represent the company so no matter what belt you hold you're representing TNA. Like in the WWE. When the World Heavyweight was really the WCW Title by another name. They weren't WCW's Champion. No the belt was now WWE's Title. So the arguement of the belt being the NWA doesn't mater. Being called the NWA World Champion doesn't mater at all either. Jim Ross has screwed up who is which champion so many times, that now he says the spinner belt really is the Big Gold belt as told by JR when he called RKO the youngest WWE Champion in history when he is actually the World Heavyweight's. Also again for the agruement, well I should say flase because I watched the segment on youtube the other day, How can they create new titles when the title was already created? There is no difference between the TNA World Heavyweight Champion and TNA's World Heavyweight Champion. Doesn't mater what he was called. Doesn't mater when the belts were made. And again you can't prove what time the belts were made. So saying 14 could be wrong because they could have been finish on May 13 2007 at 11:59 pm. Because TNA did a video showing the new belts earily in the morning before the Impact tapings.--WillC 20:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You've just proved your own argument wrong. :) The World Champion, and the WWE Champion are BOTH WWE's Champions. Also, when JR says "World Champion", he means ANY World Title(including NWA, WCW, TNA, AWA, and ECW). There IS a major difference between being TNA's Champion and being TNA Champion. As stated a trillion times here, everyone from Ken Shamrock on was TNA's Champion, and the Champion in TNA, but Shamrock, Killings etc are not counted as former TNA World Champions(even though TNA says they were/are) because the TNA World Title did not yet exist at the time they were Champions in TNA. Likewise, we do not count Rick Steamboat as a former WCW World Champion, despite being World Champion in WCW, because the WCW World Title did not yet exist at the time he was World Champion in WCW. It is so simple it is somewhat surreal you can not grasp it... nobody can be counted as having held a title before that title even exists. It means nothing, I repeat nothing, what the NWA did on May 13 2007, what Borash did or didn't say at Sacrifice, what some retconning guy says etc etc. The ONLY THING that has any relevance whatsoever is this one question....When was the TNA World Title created? Not "what led to the creation of the TNA World Title", or "who was World Champion in TNA at the time Trobich stripped TNA of the NWA titles", or anything else. When did TNA actually create a TNA title, and who was the first person identified by TNA as being "TNA World Champion". Anything else is fan fiction nonsense that has no place in wikipedia. 41.245.190.156 (talk) 09:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes they are both WWE titles but there is a difference between them. Yes World Champion but he referred to it as World's Champion i.e. World Heavyweight Championship. You don't seem to understand. You keep saying Champion in TNA when I'm talking about TNA's Champion. You're trying to change the subject. Also the Killings/Shamrock thing is revisionism. TNA can't recognize them in the title reign because it would be illegal. Now the problem with all of your arguments is NONE OF THEM ARE LIKE TNE SITUATION. That is when they broke away from the NWA. They didn't have the problem of a defending the title on that night and losing it to make a new champion. Even after I've said that you don't new a belt to be champion you keep saying you must need one. Also this isn't TNA. They can recognize whatever they want, we place in their the truth i.e. Angle and Cage's unofficial reigns. Also and quit removing Cage's and Angle's reigns until there is a consensus.--WillC 13:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Er, look at the name of the article TNA World Heavyweight Championship, NOT "TNA's Champion". Therefore it is clear that the article should logically reflect the history of the TNA World Heavyweight Championship, and not "TNA's Champion". Yes, there should be a paragraph or more describing what led up to the TNA World Heavyweight Championship, but clearly Cage was never held the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Also, recognizing Cage as TNA World Champion is revisionism too! Yet again, TNA did not create the TNA World Heavuweight Championship until May 14 2007. Yes, Cage was TNA's Champion on May 13 2007 after he had been stripped of the NWA Title, but so what? The TNA World Heavyweight Championship did not yet exist at that time. Also, the belt issue is a minor one, although if you want to keep bringing it up, the belt Cage carried out to the ring at Sacrifice was clearly the NWA one, and not until the next day did anyone see the TNA one. Unrelated, but it would be illegal for TNA to recognize those people as TNA Champion? Well, they DO recognize them as such! Your arguments are getting stranger and stranger all the time. To sum up, it makes no difference whatsoever whether the NWA had stripped Cage, or who was "TNA's Champion", or "the Champion in TNA", or anything else, because there was no TNA World Heavyweight Championship as of May 13 2007. So yes, Cage had an unofficial reign in TNA after he was stripped by the NWA, but that is NOT part of the lineage of the TNA World Heavyweight Championship which did not yet exist. 41.245.190.156 (talk) 14:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your whole argument fails when I say you don't no when the belt was officially made. You don't need a belt to be the champion i.e. the OVW Hardcore Championship. TNA's Champion is being the TNA World Heavyweight Champion. So on that note he is the unofficial because since he was TNA's Champion he became the unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion because he did win the NWA belt under TNA so since he was the World Champion in TNA on May 13 he became TNA's World Heavyweight Champion. We don't know the exact time they choose to make the new belts. So saying it wasn't till May 14 can't be proven. They could have decided to make the new belts at 1:00 pm on May 13. The belts could have been finished on May 13 at 11:30 pm. They could have been ready before the World Title match but not finished is why they possibly didn't use the new belt. We don't know.

- You don't need a belt to be champion
- TNA's World Heavyweight Champion = TNA World Heavyweight Champion
- You don't know when the belt was made
- Being called the NWA World Champion doesn't mean crap because I can call myself the AWA World Heavyweight Champion but I'm not.

Leave it at that because this discussion has been done for about I don't know almost 6 months, whenever. Me and bulletproof are sick of it. The same exact arguments have been brought up time and time again and they've all have been disproven.--WillC 15:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Double, Quadruple, Triple, times infinity 101% AGREED. With over 700 comments already made on this talk page, including those in the archive pages, having to do with this ridiculous dispute, the end result has always been what the article currently expresses. Angle was without a shadow of a doubt the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion as Cage was without a shadow of a doubt, walking into Sacrifice, the World Heavyweight Champion of TNA, the unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champion. There is no denying and no questioning this. The archives, the 700 comments pertaining to this, and the two months we've wasted stating and proving what has already been stated and proven, beg to differ with your views and as a result the consensus stands. The notes regarding Cage and Angle will not be removed. As corny as this may sound my friend, that is the... ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 04:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's bogus and you know it. Being "TNA's Champion" and being "TNA Champion" are 2 different things. For 5 years "TNA's Champion" was the NWA World Heavyweight Champion. The basic point, which you keep avoiding, is this: When was the first time that anyone can prove that TNA ever referred to a "TNA World Heavyweight Champion"? If you can cite a reliable source that Cage was referred to as specifically being "TNA Champion" on May 13 2007, I will gladly drop this. But you know you can't, because(cue music) the TNA World Title only came into existence as of May 14 2007. Even the tag titles, TNA did not refer to Team 3D as "TNA Tag Champions" until May 14 2007, even though their TNA reign simply followed/grew out of the NWA reign. Now, ask yourself why? The simple and unavoidable reason is that TNA themselves specifically chose the date May 14 2007 to debut the TNA-branded titles. Not just physical belts, but the actual concept of being a TNA-branded Champion. So THAT'S why calling Cage TNA Champion is wrong. Not only did he not have a TNA belt, but much more importantly TNA themselves had not yet brought the very concept of being TNA-branded Champions into being. You can go on and on about the NWA stripping Cage, and TNA recognizing him as a World Heavyweight Champion after the NWA had stripped him, but....whatever World Champion he was or was not, he was not the TNA Champion. Because the TNA-branded Championships(not just belts, the very concept of being a "TNA Champion") did not yet exist. You can't prove otherwise because you know it to be true. Your "unofficial TNA's Champion" argument holds no water. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 10:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further to those who say "the belts were still being made during the PPV" http://the-w.com/thread.php/id=32769 (note the quote from PWI). So clearly TNA DID have the TNA belts but chose to use the NWA belts, even after Cage and Team 3D were stripped. Why? Because the NWA belts represent the NWA Titles, the TNA belts represent the TNA Titles. The TNA Titles had not yet been brought into existence, so naturally they could not use the TNA belts. Simple really. And here's yet another intelligent take on the matter (from the time, not retroactive continuity): http://herochat.com/forum/index.php?topic=138454.0;wap2 Note that NOBODY AT THE TIME claimed that Cage was "TNA Champion" or that Angle won the "TNA Title". EVERYONE was arguing as to whether Angle was a valid NWA World Champion, since Cage had been stripped, but TNA supposedly "had control of the NWA Titles until midnight". Even though TNA would build the TNA Titles out of the NWA Titles(and even claim the NWA Title lineages), nobody on May 13 2007 EVER mentioned TNA Titles. Yes, Cage and Team 3D were stripped earlier that day but so what? At the time the TNA Titles did not exist, and the big debate/argument was to whether or not the NWA should accept Angle as having held the NWA Title. Anything else is retconning. The idea that Cage was "TNA's Champion" and therefore TNA Champion is ridiculous. TNA (and most other people) still recognized Cage as the NWA Champion. The fact that he wasn't is irrelevant to this discussion. What is perfectly clear is that Cage was not TNA Champion. The fact that the title he had later morphed into the TNA Title does not mean he was the "unofficial TNA Chmapion". 41.245.156.10 (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1)Yes it does. 2)Forums are not sources per WP:V. 3) Its not getting changed. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 09:51, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You just placed the final nail in your casket. The following statement from your paragraph above just destroyed your arguement. "So clearly TNA DID have the TNA belts but chose to use the NWA belts, even after Cage and Team 3D were stripped.". You keep stating that no one can be champion if the belts weren't made. Well you just said they were made. So you've just proven that Cage is the unofficial champion by saying TNA did have the titles during the ppv.--WillC 10:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Er, no. The TNA belts were made, but TNA Chose to use the NWA belts, not the TNA belts. Why? Because the TNA Title lineage had not yet begun. They still referred to Cage as "NWA Champion", not as "TNA Champion". How is that a "nail in my coffin"? If anything it proves your "unofficial TNA Champion" thing to be entirely false. Secondly, those sites are secondary sources, and are no less reliable than the fan websites you listed as references/sources to support the "Cage was first TNA Champion" in the article. Or the (now removed) fan website that stated that Cage and Sting were the joint first TNA co-champion. Also, simply saying "yes it does" without any sort of evidence or logical reasoning is playground-level argument. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 10:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence has been pointed towards you in the links provided for the past 2 months worth of comments. We've affirmed that neither TNA nor the NWA suggested that the NWA titles were defended at Sacrifice. We've affirmed that Borash's introduction was the only mentioned of the NWA name and that it was a mistake. We've affirmed that the mistake was corrected with the release of the Sacrifice DVD. We've affirmed that Angle was the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. We've affirmed that Cage was the World Heavyweight Champion of TNA between the afternoon hours of May 13 2007 and the conclusion of Sacrifice and in turn affirm that Angle was stripped of said title following this, which aired on a later date. As a result Cages reign merits a mention on this list in this article. The date of which TNA chose to use the TNA name in the title is deemed irrelevent.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 10:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have not affirmed any of that. You have only said "It is so because we say so." It has been conclusively proven that TNA did NOT recognize Cage as "TNA Champion", nor that the title/championship he defended at Sacrifice was any different to the one he won from Abyss 4 months earlier. Likewise the first use of "TNA World Champion" is completely relevant since that is the name of the article. The fact is that only people who are actually you know TNA World Champion would be called TNA World Champion, and Cage never was. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 10:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is that so? You're making me copy and paste again. Either you're too lazy to read or not even trying anymore...

The NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship hours before Sacrifice, not right after the event, not the day after, not two days, but hours before the event, and as a result, the championship match at Sacrifice was not for the NWA title.
Finally, the first official TNA World Heavyweight Champion as recognized by the promotion is indeed Kurt Angle. This article does not dispute that. However, the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion by omission is Christian Cage.
The NWA did in fact strip Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship on the morning of May 13, hours before Sacrifice aired. There was no "rights" to the title that TNA had until midnight when the NWA made their announcement as others who keep bringing up this same old subject to this talk page time and time again tend to believe and use as an argument. The fact is that the NWA stripped Christian Cage of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship before Sacrifice could take place and therefore, regardless of the physical belt Cage carried to the ring and regardless of what Jeremy Borash announced him as, the match was not for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship.
With that said, the question is, what title was defended at Sacrifice? The answer to this is simple, but to understand it you have to do a really difficult thing that intelligent people would do (other than reading this entire post word for word). That being surpassing the casual fan's ability to only remember recent months of history, and going way further back. I'm talking about May 13, 2007 through June 17, 2007. You see, at Sacrifice, other than Borash's ring announcing,[16] [17] the entire match made absolutely no mention of Christian being the NWA World Heavyweight Champion but instead referred to him as "the heavyweight champion of the world." When the event concluded after a controversial finish and Kurt Angle was named the victor, on that week's Impact Angle not only referred to himself (and was referred to) as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion but also held the belt representing that title. However on that same day, Jim Cornette stripped Angle of the title due to the controversial end of the match that resulted in Cage and Sting holding claim to the title, and declared that an undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary. [18] [19] Eventually, it would soon be shown that TNA did not end up considering Angle's controversial match at Sacrifice one for the TNA title and it was only after Slammiversary that TNA referred to Angle as the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion without argument. So the simple answer to the question, and it may be hard to understand at first, is that that the title that was defended at Sacrifice, the title that Angle controversially won, the title that Angle gloated about holding on the Impact after, was unofficially the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Why? Because the same title that was defended after the NWA title was taken away, the same title that gave Angle claim to being the TNA World Heavyweight Champion after the match at Sacrifice, the same title Cornette stripped and led him to make the King of the Mountain match at Slammiversary, eventually and officially became the official TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Question answered, Case closed. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 10:54, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That actually proves you wrong! You admit that TNA calls Angle the first TNA Champion. Then you say that "we need to go back and do..." That is the fan fiction/retconning stuff we have discussed endlessly. Nobody is disputing that Angle on May 14 called himself TNA Champion, nor that the TNA Title mentioned on May 14 grew out of the title Cage defended the night before. The fatal flaw in your argument however is that you are filling in what you perceive to be gaps yourself. I'm not sure if that's OR or just plain fanfic. Yes, the NWA stripped Cage etc., yes Angle's "victory" was for a title after Cage had been stripped. But Cage was NOT the TNA Champion. Yes Cage's hours-long reign should be mentioned in the article, but NOT as part of the "List of TNA Champions" box. Why? Because at the time NOBODY referred to any "TNA World Title", however someone DID mention the "NWA World Title" (and it has never been proved Borash "made a mistake", that's just your take). So after Cage was stripped by the NWA he defended the FAke NWA Title gaainst Angle, and the TNA Title only came into being the following day, ie. after the 3-way was over and done with. During those few hours Cage between the stripping and the 3-way NOBODY ever mentioned a TNA Title, and TNA never even hinted that Cage was holding a different title to the one he had won from Abyss. That "going back and doing" stuff is fan fiction, retconning, and more. It is not valid here. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 11:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME. We know that Angle was the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. We do not, have not, cannot, and will not dispute that. What I mean by "we need to go back and do..." is that I'm trying to take you back to when the events in question transpired. I have not filled anything with fictitious events or my own OR. I was just showing you how the events transpired. What is revisionism is what TNA has down twice already with the title. Cage first and Angle second. There is no denying that or disputing that either. Your argument falls in your continued use of deliberate ranting and restating things without fully understanding what the opposing part means. Your inability to understand these events has left this discussion dragging for months. Re-read it thoroughly and come back with either a valid response or questions to help you better understand the facts.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 11:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Better yet just take a look at this...

Explain this

1)http://youtube.com/watch?v=M676jgrlLj8

2)Why were Cage and Team 3D still carrying the NWA Belts? (And please no garbage about the metalworker still making the belts during the PPV)

3)Did Tenay or West attempt to "correct" Borash's "mistake" after he said NWA?

4)Did anyone at any point during or before Sacrifice mention TNA Titles?

5)The next night on Impact!, Cornette mentioned for the first time that TNA were creating TNA Titles. True or false?

6)After promoting the Sacrifice matches for ages as NWA matches, did TNA, either on their website, or during the PPV ever mention to the fans that that was no longer the case?

7)Does TNA even acknowledge Angle's Sacrifice victory as being an official win, or was it overturned(meaning he didn't mean shit)?

8)When TNA are speaking about Cage do they call him a 2-time or 3-time Champion?

Originally posted by - Dr Rgne (talk) 07:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC) [reply]

1) Here's how the events really transpired, not the cheap cut you keep using. [20] [21]

2) They were obviously carrying the NWA belts as they had nothing else to show for their title matches and they were only stripped hours before the show. A belt is not a title. It only represents one.

3) Tenay and West had no business correcting Borash as it was unnecessarily to do so. Commentators don't do that. Not even in WWE when they call Triple H a former 12 time WWE Champion. It's not their business to correct, only to read out of their scripts and interpret the action.

4) No one in TNA was going to mention the TNA championships until after they transitioned from the NWA situation. You continuing to use that as an argument is baseless and irrelevant.

5) False. The next night on Impact Cornette only mention that a TNA Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary. The words "for the first time" never came out of his mouth.[22] scroll down to Thursday, May 17th, 2007

6) On the back of programs, on the bottom of posters, on the fine print of advertisements the words "card subject to change" are embedded. Not just in TNA but in every promotion out there, small medium or large. Promoters would be committing career suicide if they didn't add this to their forms of promoting their business events. Sacrifice, a PPV like you said that had been promoted for ages to feature NWA title matches obviously wasn't going to announce a change in the card due to a technicality that had occurred hours before show time. Had the stripping happened days before, it would have been a necessity by law to announce an official change. One can argue about how things transpired in TNA management after they got word of the NWA's announcement but the fact remains is that by Law, as in by legal contract, TNA no longer had permission to use the NWA name, likeness, or property, in any way shape or form. This was followed by the show itself with the exception of Borash's slip. And yes slips do happen, sort of how the WWF initials sometimes slip out of people's mouths. But like all things this was corrected as seen on the official Sacrifice DVD [23] Not only do we see the official TNA Championship belt on the cover but also the matches themselves don't even make a mention of the NWA. They are only referred to as World Heavyweight and World Tag Team championship matches. The fact is, Borash's slip, was obviously a mistake and the further use of his slip to make your argument is rendered not only false but now irrelevant.

7) As things stand now, TNA does not recognize Angle's victory an official win. Unfortunately for your argument again, that’s not how things stood in TNA land when the event occurred. Luckily there are people out there how save articles in archives so here goes scroll down to Thursday, May 17th, 2007 The article has since been deleted by TNA. However, archived note from TNAwrestling.com CONFIRMS that TNA did declare Angle the winner of the match at the time as it states that he was stripped of the title. And here's why you will never be able to remove that note. Because it is obvious that TNA did declare Angle's victory at Sacrifice an Official Win, Wikipedia's base policy forces us to interpret our information in articles by how they transpired. Because of this, we note reigns that have now been deemed unofficial and in turn we note the changes that occurred that lead to them being declared unofficial. It is an inescapable, undeniable, and dare I say, unquestionable truth that your attempts at removing the information are and will forever be futile.

8)When they refer to any former champion in TNA they refer to them as TNA Champions. It doesn't matter how many times they do. TNA has the right to call their champions however they wish to call them. The fact, however, remains. This isn't TNA, and the information here will be listed as it happened, how it happened, and when it happen. Like we've stated time and time again. We keep things in neutral harmony. We note reigns that have now been deemed unofficial and in turn we note the changes that occurred that lead to them being declared unofficial. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 11:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ER, commentators do correct errors, like when Randy Orton was called "the youngest WWE Champion ever". Also, had Cage come out with the TNA Title and been called "TNA Champion" it wouldn't have caused a riot. People would have gathered they were simply changing belts, like WWE does seemingly every year. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 11:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They DID have new belts with them(as per the links), but chose to use the NWA ones. ...Until they had transitioned from the NWA situation. So says you. I agree fully. They had not yet transitioned from the NWA situation. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 11:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Booker T and Victory Road 2008

Shouldn't he be added? 41.245.190.156 (talk) 10:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No.--WillC 17:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This brings up another interesting point. Booker T left Victory Road with the belt, and many websites/sources listed Booker as the new TNA Champion. On the next episode of Impact! however Cornette stated that Booker was NOT the new Champion, and had not actually won the title after all. TNA's own website does not list Angle as having been NWA, TNA, or any other Champion on May 13/14 2007, or Booker as having been TNA Champion on July 13 or 14 2008. Now how exactly is this different from Angle's "reign". Obviously after Angle's "victory" was overturned, there was no World Champion, while after Booker's "victory" was declared null and void, Joe got the belt back. If Angle is listed as an "unofficial champion", then surely Booker should be as well? 41.245.156.10 (talk) 10:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a big difference. First of all the match was a No Contest which means Joe retains and per the rules in a singles match in TNA, DQ, Count out, Time Limit, draw, or No Contest the champion retains the title. Joe attacked referees, got counted out, got DQed all at once. It was a no contest. Sharmell is not a referee and she made the 3 count. There was no new champion as per the no contest and he isn't a unofficial champion since Sharmell is not a ref.--WillC 09:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Cage-Sting-Angle match also ended in a no-contest. While an proper TNA official did register Angle's "win", it was not the designated official for the match, who was busy counting Sting's 3-count on Cage at the time. The following night on Impact! Cornette made it clear that Angle had NOT won the match the night before. TNA's own website listing champions does not count Angle as having won anything on May 13 2007. That was ctually the point though. Booker claimed he had won and left with the belt, just like Angle did, yet Angle is listed and Booker isn't. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 10:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that argument is that TNA's own website listing champions did note Angle as Champion following the event. It was later removed (as shown by the archived news tidbit link in the discussion above) following Cornettes announcement that he had "stripped" Angle of the title. Therefore the victory was official and the reign did occur only to be revised by TNA following their decision to hit the reboot button on the title and begin linage at Slammiversary.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 10:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which link? 41.245.156.10 (talk) 10:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The link has been posted (ahem... Reposted) above. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 10:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those are dead links. However the actual working links state that Cornette said that Angle was not TNA Champion, and that nobody won. :) 41.245.156.10 (talk) 11:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you read the comment you'll see that I noted that TNA has since removed the news link after they cleaned up their news section on their website. It now only goes back a few months. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 11:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And you have no source that they ever recognized Angle as having won at the time? 41.245.156.10 (talk) 11:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is the source. The archive site maintains a list of headlines released by TNA on their official website's news section. scroll down to May 17 The headline reads Angle Stripped Of The TNA World Title meaning that because he was stripped of the title, his reign was deemed valid and official. That is until, like I said, TNA hit the reboot button. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 11:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is just a headline, and it is possible they misunderstood. The actual links above(onlineworldofwrestling and slam.canoe) make it clear that Cornette said nobody won, and there was no champion. That is not Angle being stripped. In much the same way the Midnight Rider was never stripped of the NWA World Title because that title was overturned meaning he never eally held it. yes there was a period where Angle was seemingly the World Champion, but that victory was declared null and void. So he couldn't have been stripped as such. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 11:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that however is that the headline was taken from the news article released from TNAwrestling.com. TNA themselves officially saying Angle was stripped. Are you saying TNA misunderstood TNA?^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 11:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no proof it was taken from TNA. Also the Kurt Angle article says he became the first TNA Champion at Slammiversary(and that wasn't edited by me). Face it, your story has no legs. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 11:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is proof that it was taken from TNA. The headline links to the front page of TNA's news section, directing the reader towards the now removed article from TNAwrestling.com. Again, restating what has already been stated a hundred times, the Angle article as do all wrestler articles under WP:PW recognize both sides. We recognize the events that occurred as they occurred and if there is any change by the promotion in question, we note the change as well. It’s a way of maintaining stability in the articles. The article states that Angle is the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion, as recognized by TNA. That for the billionth time has not been disputed. TNA currently recognizes Angle as having won the title at Slammiversary to become the first Champion. That has not been disputed on this talk page. What is being disputed right now is Angle's pre-Slammiversary reign by you listed in the article. So since you want to use Wikipedia as a source, the Angle article also states that Cornette stripped Angle of the title further supporting that his rein was recognized at the time therefore deeming Angle's pre-Slammi reign official and valid in the article. Your story not only has no legs but is also running out of hands to keep you upright. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 12:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dear oh dear. It says Angle was stripped of the World Title, not the TNA Title. Again that is probably "per consensus". It also says that Angle became the first TNA Champion at Slammiversary, not only as recognized by TNA but the first TNA Champion at Slammiversary period. Likewise, merely linking a page to the generic TNA website and claiming you took your own headline from that site is NOT proof. I could make a link to wwe.com and write a headline that says "HHH dead", that would not be proof. It would just be me being stupid. Also, the wrestling-titles.com site(while recognzing the Cage/Angle reigns as per you) notes that TNA claims they stripped Angle of the NWA Title. Also their NWA Title history page mentions that even after Cage was stripped TNA presented an NWA Title match(obviously not recognized by the NWA as such). You are trying to confuse the issue. So we now have at least 4 different events that happened all supposedly RS. So we then need to look as the events as they really happened. Borash called Cage NWA Champion, there was no mention of a new title until the next day. Whether Angle was stripped(no) or the result overturned(true as per links), the first TNA Champion was crowned at Slammiversary, the position that TNA maintains. Your "proof" consists of non-links and somebody saying something on a fan website, when there are countless other websites that claim otherwise. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 12:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read the words that are coming from this keyboard.

1)The Angle article says On the following episode of Impact!, after hearing complaints from Cage and Sting about the controversial finish to the match, Jim Cornette stripped Angle of the title. Not "WORLD" title.

2)Click on this link wrestlingdb.com Now scroll down to see the headlines from Thursday, May 17th, 2007. At the top of that section reads the headline taken from TNAwrestling.com that reads Angle Stripped Of The TNA World Title. It’s not me making a stupid headline up. It’s TNA.

3)wrestling-titles.com is NOT used anywhere in this article at all to source anything. Go ahead and look at the article yourself. What TNA World Heavyweight Championship are you even looking at? What planet are you even on?

4)For the infinite time, Borash called Cage the NWA Champion, NOT TNA, and even that was proven to be a mistake as it was corrected in the Sacrifice DVD. Not only is the official TNA Championship belt on the cover but also the matches themselves don't even make a mention of the NWA. They are only referred to as World Heavyweight and World Tag Team championship matches.

5)WrestlingDatabase.com is no more a wrestling fan site than onlineworldofwrestling.com, obsessedwithwrestling.com, wrestlingnewsworld.com, wrestlezone.com, or hell even prowrestlinginsider.com etc. It just has an nice little feature that keep archives on things released at any given time so that when people like you who keep getting proven wrong and shot down with failed arguments get a slap in a the face from history itself. You've lost this battle. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 12:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And your point is? You SAY it was archived from tnawrestling.com Where's the proof?......World Title, Title, whatever. Anyway, you may have edited that yourself....You keep linking to wrestlingdb.com which proves nothing. You say "Archived from TNA". Again, proof?....It was never proven that Borash made a mistake. You would just like to think so. As for the DVD cover, well WWE DVD's often show people on the cover who aren't in the DVD. A 1990's WCW VHS showed the nWo on the cover, despite the video itself being a compilation of 80's Crockett matches.IT makes more sense for a company to sell/advertise what is now rather than what was then. TNA could put the new belt image on the cover of a DVD that compiled 2002 matches, it wouldn't prove anything. They didn't use that bgelt at the time of the event. I figure that before the DVD was released the new belt was already being used and they wanted to associate that event with the new belt rather than stick the new one on the cover...Give it a rest with wrestlingdb.com. That link proves only that you are wasting everyone's time. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 12:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I want you to look at this [24] This is a screen cap I took myself from the site. You see those last 4 numbers that are circled in red when I have my mouse pointer over that headline? Now what does the entire url say there where the 4 numbers are circled? It reads http://www.tnawrestling.com/news/fullnews2.php?alt=1353 - the 4 numbers being "1353" now this shows you where the link I have my mouse pointer over is suppose to take you, to where the official article from TNA's website is located. Now what I want you to do is to go to back to wrestlingdb.com again and try it yourself. Put your mouse pointer over other headlines. Notice that the last 4 numbers where I showed you circled in red are different when you point your mouse pointer over a different headline. That’s because those headline links are supposed to take you to the official article on TNAwrestling.com from which the headlines where taken from. However, when you do click on a headline the TNA website redirects you to the main news section. This proves three things. 1) The Wrestlingdb.com site does take its info from TNAwrestling.com. 2)TNAwrestling.com did have that news article on their own website stating that Angle had been "stripped" 3)You just lost another argument

Now on your Borash defense technique. Take the cover picture of the Sacrifice DVD out of the equation. The fact is that on the DVD the matches themselves don't even make a mention of the NWA. They are only referred to as World Heavyweight and World Tag Team championship matches, further proving that Borash's mention was indeed a full-blown mistake. And you have not only wasted everyone’s time for 2 months, but are continuing to do so by refusing to admit you've been defeated when you know you damn well have. Its over. The information will not be removed. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 13:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those four numbers again prove less than nothing. Sure, the link is to the TNA site, but there is no proof that the tna site itself ever mentioned Angle being stripped. Do you have a screen capture of the actual TNA site that says "Angle stripped"? No, you don't. And as noted numerous times above, by the time the TNA DVD was released, the World Title in TNA was the TNA Title. It therefore made no sense to release a new DVD advertising another World Title on the box. Note that they don't call it the TNA Title either. Just "World Title". That actually supports my case, not yours. You haven't proved anything atal apart from the fact that you continue to repeat yourself even when shown to be wrong. Admit it, you are wrong. Cutting-and-pasting the same silly rant won't help. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 13:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And you repeating the same pathetic arguments won’t help you either. Admit it. You know, I know. You've lost this argument and the only thing you can resort to now is to senselessly deny everything that is thrown at you. You're scared and you know you lost. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 13:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is the last refuge of the person who knows they're defeated. Name-calling. I ask again "do you have actual proof" (not some non-link) that TNA themselves stripped Angle? Do you have proof that Cage on the day of May 13 was referred to as TNA Champion? Did anyone from TNA (or Borash himself) ever say Borash "made a mistake"? The difference between my repetition and yours is that I have debunked everything you've thrown against the wall hoping it'll stick, yet you are yet to successfully disprove one thing I've said. Your responses are typically some lengthy cut-and-paste with lots of useless links. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 13:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There comes a time when a disruptive, relentless, useless, repetitive, individual, much like yourself, refuses to use his brain when in an argument that I cannot be held responsible for his incapacity to put two and two together. I've laid my case out to you, we all have, yet you continue to make this discussion drag with your refusal to look at the very facts laid out before you. This will no longer be an issue anymore. To settle this once and for all and to show that a consensus will stand after tonight...^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 14:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, malicious name-calling with no facts to back it up. This is a clear and obvious violation of WP:civil. You certainly are an angry boy, aren't you? All the archives show is that you have repeated yourself over and over without having any actual proof. I have asked you to try and refute my claims, and you can not. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 14:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Technically we have refuted your claims. One point you were stating that the belt was made on May 14 and now you're not. You openly admit that Cage was TNA's Champion. And since you admit that you must admit that Cage was the unofficial Champion since there is no difference between TNA's World Heavyweight Champion and TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Cage was the World Champion. Cage was TNA's Champion. 2 + 2 = ? Since Cage was the TNA World Heavyweight Champion and he lost that name to Angle that night it makes them both Unofficial Champions. Also to state TNA did say Angle won the TNA Title at Sacrifice on Impact that week. Cornette striped Angle of the belt which meant Angle was the Champion. You can't strip the belt from someone if they aren't the champion.--WillC 22:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. I said the Championship lineage did not exist before May 14 2007. You are confusing a physical metal belt that is worn/carried around, with the idea of a Championship, which has a lineage, champion etc. For example WCW existed since 1988(and under Crockett since much earlier, under other names). The physical Big Gold Belt existed since 1986. But WCW only had their own WCW Title/Championship beginning 1991 (although they retconned this, much like TNA). I have no idea when the physical belt was made. However, one link shows that the belt that says "TNA" on it was made BEFORE the Sacrifice PPV. But TNA still chose to use the physical NWA belt. That actually completely refutes YOUR claim. Since the TNA Championship did not yet exist. Not the belt, but the idea of someone specifically being "TNA Champion". THE TNA Title lineage only began on May 14, hence they didn't use the TNA belt on May 13. And as stated millions of times, being "TNA Champion" is a definite thing. Being "Champion in TNA" is something completely different. For somebody to specifically be TNA Champion, TNA would need to identify them as such, not merely "World Champion in TNA". It's actually apples and oranges. As for Angle, TNA does not recognise his supposed "victory", and your only "proof" that he was stripped, as opposed to the result being overturned(if it was ever official in the first place) is a dead link on a fan website. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 06:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of Cage and Angle's pre-Slammiversary reigns resulting from May 13 stripping of NWA titles

The following survey is to assert the views of the editors of WP:PW to

Assert that a consensus is present
Put an end to the continuous disruption and edit warring of the talk page and the main article

Below, state whether you Support the inclusion or Oppose it, by placing either '''Support''', or '''oppose'''.

Support Per sections above including those in the 3 archived talk pages. Based on the events that transpired pre-Sacrifice on May 13, 2007. ^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 14:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would say "oppose" but note how it's only open to the editors of WP:PW ie unquestionabletruth and his small group of friends. This should be made open to everyone who's been involved in this discussion. It is therefore a self-fulfilling prophecy, a "vote" in which only people who feel one way are permitted to vote, and therefore worthless. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 14:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is open for everyone, including you, as long as there aren't any other IPs or Users that spontaneously show up and are later traced back to you. There is no membership requirement to be part of WP:PW. Everyone who's ever been involved in this yearlong deal is welcome to voice his or her opinions as well. This is not a vote. Wikipedia is not a democracy. A survey's intended purpose is to form a consensus and assert its presence in the community.^{--UnquestionableTruth--} 14:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Well in that case, I vote against including Cage in the "List of TNA Champions" box, but not against including mention of the events of May 13 2007 in the article itself. 41.245.156.10 (talk) 14:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - (WP:PW member), if Cage was stripped of the title that would have meant that he was only "theoretically" the World Heavyweight Champion of TNA. When TNA was stripped they immediately created the TNA World Heavyweight Championship, which is the title that Cage theoretically held. Angle would also theoritaclly hold it since he also was declared "World Heavyweight Champion," which is theoritcally the TNA World Heavyweight Championship which was created days after NWA stripped TNA of the titles. You have to think outside the "ring" to get a good understanding of the situation as there are many ways this could go.S_RX 15:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and No Comment - First of all, the official storyline stance on Angle at the time was that, according to Cornette, he did not win the title. That should not even be up for debate. As for Cage, I'm torn on it. He was stripped of the title, but was still announced as "World Champion" that evening. I have to get to work now, but I basically want to say that this Angle reign has no place here at all. Mshake3 (talk) 16:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support - The simple fact of it is that Cage was TNA's Champion which technically means you're the TNA World Heavyweight Champion. He lost that title of being TNA's Champion to Angle which meant he became a unofficial Champion as well.--WillC 21:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Um, the storyline at the time was that Angle did not win the title at Sacrifice, as Cornette nullified the victory. Angle's inclusion should not be up for discussion. Mshake3 (talk) 15:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very Strong Support - They won the title. Altenhofen (talk) 03:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The simple fact is that the TNA World Title did not yet exist, "TNA's Champion" or not at the time that the 3-way match occured. I have made this point rather well earlier on this very discussion page. Dr Rgne (talk) 09:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- RE: The IP User above has already, I guess, proved that TNA had the belts during the ppv.--WillC 09:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - The NWA Championships, yes. The TNA titles were introduced at the following TV taping, and revealed on TNA Today during the week. Mshake3 (talk) 15:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - No the were created before the ppv. His only excuse is that the titles weren't around. They were. The simple things are this. Being TNA's Champion is being the World Heavyweight Champion. Angle's reign was recongized by TNA when they said they were stipping Angle of the title. So Angle's reign is a Unofficial reign. Now Cage's, Cage is a uinofficial Champion since there is no difference between being called the TNA World Heavyweight Champion and TNA's World Heavyweight Champion, because when you are the TNA World Heavyweight CHampion, you're TNA's top guy. You are their Champion. So when Cage was not the NWA's he became TNA's which automaticly made him a unoffical champion. With the belts being around he became a unofficial Champion even if he didn't have it in his hand. Being called the NWA World Champion means nothing because I can call myself the AWA World Heavyweight Champion but it doesn't mean I am.--WillC 20:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - The mere existance of a belt backstage doesn't mean anything, and should have no part of this discussion. The events with Angle wasn't a strip, it was a nullification. If Angle was regularly stripped of the title in storylines, he would have two consecutive title reigns listed in their title history after winning at Slammiversary. Who the hell are you to say that it was the other way? Mshake3 (talk) 02:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Because I've been here for 3 months having to deal with IPs give the same exact arguements that you're giving, me and Bulletproof have disproven them all. Go read them all and see what you think afterwards.--WillC 02:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, though I do support the reigns being mentioned. Gavyn Sykes (talk)`

Support 201.141.164.192 (talk) 03:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- RE: To a few posts back, as stated before, being "TNA's Champion", and being "TNA Champion" are 2 distinct things that may or may not coincide. When Ken Shamrock won the NWA Title in 2002 he was "TNA's Champion", Jeff Jarrett has been "TNA's Champion" on six different occasions, yet neither of them were ever "TNA Champion". The simple reason for that is at the time those men were "TNA's Champion" the "TNA Championship" did not exist. Likewise, even after being stripped of the NWA Title, Cage remained "TNA's Champion" for several hours, but the "TNA Championship" did not yet exist. I am not referring merely to the physical title belts but to the concept of there being a TNA-branded World Heavyweight Championship. At the time Cage was "TNA' Champion", but not "TNA Champion". 41.245.156.10 (talk) 07:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what I say...take the Christian and Angle title reigns out of the table and leave it in the article about how the title was created. It's worth noting that Christian held a no-name World Title that ended up transitioning to the new TNA World Title.. and that Angle's reign bla bla. You get the picture. Just to shut people up. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 00:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My brief opinion: the Booker T situation seems clear (no referee made the count and he was never declared the champion). Kurt Angle WAS announced as the new champion and TNA even had the title history on their website listing him as the first champion (until they later removed all mention of it). I think we should do the same thing we do for titles that WWE decides to screw around with, we note it as an unofficial title reign and include a note why (like all WWE pretends that Bob Backlund never lost the WWF Title to Antonio Inoki, they just pretend he held it non-stop for 5 years). TJ Spyke 15:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you are saying that the TNA site listed ANGLE as the First Champion, pre-revisionism? In that case, Cage should not be listed as an Unofficial Champion(or anything else), if TNA never recognized him as such. Angle is an interesting case, as there appear to be two differing takes on what happened. Basically...was he stripped of the title, or was the result nullified entirely? 41.245.132.199 (talk) 09:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I miswrote. A few days after the NWA and TNA split, they listed Cage and Team 3D as the default first champions of the new TNA belts (although Cage lost the title at the PPV while 3D retained theirs. Even the guy who runs TNA website said Cage was the TNA champion heading into the PPV, it wasn't until shortly after Jim Cornette announced the KOTM match that TNA removed all references to Cage or Angle being the first champion. TJ Spyke 16:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But do you have any proof that this is what they said? Somebody else posted a fansite with a dead link that I don't believe to be a reliable source. If the TNA website had listed Cage (or Angle on May 14) as the first TNA Champion, does anyone have a screen capture or suchlike which can verify it? 41.245.185.100 (talk) 06:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're just asking for the impossible now. You just can't accept facts. Cage being TNA's World Heavyweight Champion is no different than being the TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Like the WWE Champion. What does the WWE Championship stand for. WWE's Champion. What does the TNA World Heavyweight Championship stand for. TNA's Champion.--WillC 06:59, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the impossible, it's a valid query. If you are saying that TNA did actually at one point refer to Christian cage as the first TNA World Champion, can you verify it? Or is it just you saying so? Although it is not actually strictly true, I could verify a claim that TNA say that Ken Shamrock was the first TNA Champion with links and sources. People can verify claims that TNA have referred to Kurt Angle at Slammiversary as the first TNA Champion(though they've retconned that now). But apparently nobody can verify that TNA actually at one point supposedly called Cage the first TNA Champion. What does that tell you? Also, there are right now 3 different people who are "WWE's Champion" (HHH, CM Punk, and Mark Henry, well maybe not Henry), but only HHH is actually WWE Champion. 41.245.185.100 (talk) 08:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, the "consensus has been established" excuse, used for listing Cage as the first Champion has been exposed as a lie. Right now, this is split down the middle. However, having eventually read through the complete talk archives of this article it becomes clear that more people oppose including Cage then support it. Everytime someone has attempted to remove Cage from the "List of Champions" section, it has been reverted and you have driven them away with the "consensus has been established" argument. Overall it appears that more people oppose listing Cage. At the very least you can not say that it has been agreed by a majority to include Cage. If everyone who had argued this point on this discussion page had returned for this current discussion it would have been a clear majority for "oppose". Right now it's even. So clearly consensus has not been established, despite what some have repeatedly said. 41.245.185.100 (talk) 10:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, if you can say a consensus is a established, because it is 6 to 5, in favor of including Cage's and Angle's reigns.--WillC 10:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? When did I say a consensus was established to include Cage and Angle's reigns? Where did you get that impression that is what I said? I'm sorry to offend, but that is completely surreal that that is what you think I said. 41.245.185.100 (talk) 10:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check this out: http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/titles/tna/worldheavyweight.html

OnlineWorldofWrestling.com is recognizing Booker T as the current TNA World Heavyweight Champion.

Oppose Reason being is that TNA Wrestling never made mention of the "TNA World Heavyweight Title" on May 13, 2007. In TNA's view, Christian Cage went into Sacrifice as the reigning NWA World Heavyweight Champion. In TNA's view, Kurt Angle became the new NWA World Heavyweight Champion. In fact, I worked for TNA Wrestling at the time and I remember TNA filming backstage footage of Kurt Angle praising the NWA World Championship he had just won, and what a wonderful accomplishment it was and how he now places his name with an elite list, yadda, yadda, yadda. That footage never did air entirely though because of the NWA pulling their titles prematurely. What was originally in plans was for Kurt Angle to walk down with the NWA World Heavyweight Title on May 14, 2007 and to be handed the new TNA World Heavyweight Title by Jim Cornette because TNA Management wanted to now recognize a sole undisputed champion of TNA, or something to that effect, I'm not too sure exactly off memory now. At the time of all this though, I had been in the know of all the TNA booking committee happenings because I attended some of the meetings as I was great friends with the team at the time. At the time of May 13-May 14 though, the plan was to transition Kurt Angle as the NWA World Heavyweight Champion over to the TNA World Heavyweight Champion and that’s what we did on TNAwrestling.com. That decision no longer translated on television though because the NWA took back their belts quicker than expected according to original plans so Kurt Angle had no other choice but to walk down with the TNA World Heavyweight Title as the show kicked off and that’s where Mike Tenay explained on commentary that it was because Cornette wanted to recognize a sole TNA champion or something to that effect, again I forget off memory, but I could go back to the tapes and review it if need be. In the end TNA decided to ignore the May 14th debacle with the TNA World Title and instead decided the first champion at Slammiversary. On TNAwrestling.com though we continued to recognize Kurt Angle as a former NWA World Heavyweight Champion, and even continued to recognize that reign through video packages, but it wasn’t until recently through revisionism that that reign became obsolete.

Fact of the matter though is that Christian Cage never was the TNA World Heavyweight Champion, and Kurt Angle was the NWA World Heavyweight Champion at the end of Sacrifice according to TNA Wrestling, but according to the National Wrestling Alliance, it’s an unofficial reign. The first ever TNA World Heavyweight Champion was Kurt Angle at Slammiversary.MC511 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TNA never called Angle the NWA Champion. They already knew they couldn't since the NWA announced that they were stripping Cage and Team 3D of the titles and ending the relationship with TNA at about 1PM (7 hours before the PPV began), why do you think they only said "World Heavyweight Champion" during the PPV instead of "NWA World Heavyweight Champion"? I am trying to get the pages with the Internet Archive, but it's a little hard right now since it doesn't work well with their site. TJ Spyke 16:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jeremy Borash did announce Christian Cage as the NWA World Heavyweight Champion and that was done legitimately as a shot against the National Wrestling Alliance. It was also done to further Kurt Angle's resume and add the NWA Title to his list of credentials, and we did infact list him as the current NWA World Heavyweight Champion on TNAwrestling.com. On May 17th, 2007 upon staying kayfabe with the iMPACT! showtime on Thursdays, we stripped him of the title on the website, but by that time we started calling it the TNA World Title. We were now listing him as a "2-time World Heavyweight Champion," though. One with NWA, and one with TNA. His NWA reign is still quietly included with the figure of "12-time World Heavyweight Champion," they throw on Kurt Angle. In fact, Kurt has a replicated NWA World Title in his office in his home. Just like he has one of the IWGP Title, the WCW Title/World, the WWE Title, and the TNA Title. MC511 (talk) 19:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the position TNA took at the time(and I do admit that it does contradict my own earlier claim that "Angle's reign was overturned).... http://web.archive.org/web/20070706235058/http://www.tnawrestling.com/info/history/tnaworldtitle.html 41.245.182.70 (talk) 12:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good job finding that. They also had previously noted Cage as being stripped of the NWA Title and a reign of his the night of Sacrifice starting as a TNA title reign(they listed him with 3 reigns on said table). That one is probably a lot harder to track down. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 00:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So there we have it, TNA didn't recognize Christian Cage as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion and that's what I was trying to say as well. I'm glad you found that link. Kurt Angle was also recognized by TNA as an NWA World Heavyweight Champion. The first TNA Champion was at Slammiversary 2007. MC511 (talk) 01:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually MC511, they did recognize Cage at one point as TNA World Champion, they changed their title history page a couple times within a few days after Sacrifice until ultimately taking down the page. Not until recently did they make the addition of a new title history page to the TNA web site. Like I said, the web archive of the page showing that TNA put Cage down as a 3 time World Champion in their title history(2 time NWA, 1 time TNA) is probably a bit harder to track down. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 03:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you can track such a page down it will be summed up. But as things stand now, there is no evidence that TNA ever recognized Cage as "TNA World Champion". 41.245.182.70 (talk) 06:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But you can't say there isn't. So either way it maters. You can't remove Cage's and Angle's reigns because then it would be disputable because you can't be sure that they weren't. You can't keep them because we don't know if there is any evidence that they are. So we've hit a stalemate.--WillC 07:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The webarchive link clearly states that TNA at the time claimed that the first TNA Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary 2007. Although Cage and Angle were not really NWA Champions as of May 13 and 14 2007, the first TNA Champion would still only be crowned at Slammiversary. I said that Angle's win was nullified, because that's what TNA say now. I was wrong. I can admit that. At the time, TNA recognized that Angle had won the NWA Championship. Now people claim that TNA recognized Cage as TNA Champion at the time. Nobody has shown any real evidence for it apart from saying so. So as things stand, the evidence is against that. If someone can prove that TNA did recognize Cage as TNA Champion on May 13 2007, then obviously that should be included. But as of right now, the evidence is totally against that. 41.245.182.70 (talk) 08:08, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bottom line is that we have to remove Christian Cage and Kurt Angle pre-Slammiversary from the article page. We can add Kurt Angle's May 13th reign as an unofficial reign to the NWA World Heavyweight Title page. It doesn't belong on the TNA World Heavyweight Title page though. MC511 (talk) 23:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Whether or not TNA recognized (or continue to recognize) Angles as having won the match is immaterial. Clearly, TNA by their own design did not unveil the TNA World Title until AFTER the 3-way and its aftermath. The first TNA World Champion is Kurt Angle, unless someone can provide conclusive evidence to the contrary. 41.245.182.70 (talk) 13:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We already have provided evidence to show that there was a title contested for at Sacrifice that was not the NWA Title and could not have been. Even the Sacrifice '07 DVD cover shows the TNA title belt. TNA did also in fact recognize Cage as TNA World Champion for that night at one point. It may be in the discussion archives for this article, I know it happened, I remember seeing it. TNA obviously though has since changed their stance on the matter. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 14:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there was a title contested for that night. Yes, the NWA does not recognise it a an NWA Title match. Yes, the TNA DVD cover shows the TNA belt. But that is revisionism. At the time of the match, the TNA belt was never used, and nobody ever said "TNA World Champion". In fact, the NWA belt was used, and Borash said "NWA".(And please don't go "that was a mistake". Has anyone from TNA ever said "Borash made a mistake"?) Only the day AFTER Sacrifice did anybody mention a "TNA World Title"(as the guy a few posts back pointed out very well). Also saying "I know it happened. I remember seeing it." is pretty useless as far as this discussion goes. Not a knock on you, but we obviously can't include/exclude anything on any article because someone says "I remember seeing it". If you have any actual evidence that would be different. As things stand, it is overwhelming that TNA did NOT recognize Cage as the first TNA Champion, and that the plan was always for Kurt Angle to be the first ever TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Christian Cage was never TNA World Heavyweight Champion, apart from revisionist history. 41.245.139.38 (talk) 08:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Look, the problem with your point is this...just because the NWA Title was not officially on the line at Sacrifice '07, that does not mean that the TNA Title was. There is really only one thing that is relevant to this discussion...the TNA World Heavyweight Championship was only created as of May 14 2007. That's all there is to it. 41.245.139.38 (talk) 10:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent point sir. Keep fighting the good fight. Mshake3 (talk) 14:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can make your point, but the last time I checked the User vote was to include the reigns, not to remove them. The consensus is established, the reigns are included.--WillC 15:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WHAT?!!!! How can you say that "the consensus is established"?! When is the "User vote...to include the reigns"? Countless people have explained to you as though you were a 6-year-old why Cage should not be listed, and your only counterpoint has been "he was stripped of the NWA Title before the Sacrifice match". Now, I ask you, how is one relevant to the other? Yes, Trobich issued a statment, stripping Cage and Team 3D of their NWA-branded titles, but how does that make Cage the first TNA Champion? The first TNA Champion is not established by default, or by "intelligent reasoning". The first TNA World Heavyweight Champion is the first person that TNA ever referred to as being "TNA World Heavyweight Champion". Right now, TNA claim that Ken Shamrock was the first TNA Champion, but we don't list him as such, because TNA never called him TNA Champion at the time. Likewise, TNA never called Cage "TNA Champion" until long after Sacrifice 2007. The first person TNA ever said "TNA World Heavyweight Champion" about was Kurt Angle. Therefore Kurt Angle is the first TNA World Champion, officially, and unofficially, default and de facto, and everything else. 41.245.158.10 (talk) 15:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are 6 to 6, it is a tie, which means nothing changes, it stays the same. Also there are two that oppose it but say that their reigns should be mentioned in the background. Plus to be refered doesn't mean anything. I can refer to myself as the longest reigning AWA World Heavyweight Champion, I'm not, so it makes no difference what someone is called.--WillC 16:10, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But that is self-contradictory and illogical. The wrong referring here is by you. You are referring to Cage as TNA Champion, when TNA never did. Even if TNA have lied/revised certain aspects of their history and lineage, the one thing they have undisputed control over is when their own Championship began. And TNA said their first TNA Champion was Kurt Angle(though they now say Shamrock). The only time Christian Cage has ever been called a "former TNA Champion", is when they claimed EVERYONE who was a Champion in TNA is a former TNA Champion. At no point did TNA ever say "Christian Cage, the first TNA Champion" or anything to that effect. Over on the WWE Championship page the title history begins with Buddy Rogers. Why? Because Rogers was the first guy referred to as "WWWF Champion" by the WWWF (now WWE). We don't call Lou Thesz the first unofficial WWWf/WWF/WWE World Heavyweight Champion because that belt never existed when Thesz was an active World Champion, defending in the WWWF territory(amongst others). By the same token at the time wehn Cage was World Champion in TNA, the TNA Championship itself did not exist, therefore Cage could not possibly have been TNA World Champion, even unofficially. It is irrelevant when Cage was stripped by the NWA. The first TNA World Champion is indeed the first person that TNA themselves identified as being the TNA World Champion. 41.245.158.10 (talk) 16:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well said again. And remember, the last promotions of Slammiverary indicated that the match was to determine the first champion of the belt's existance. Mshake3 (talk) 18:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dude you might want to go on TNA's youtube account and watch the impact after Sacrifice. I have, Angle was strippted of the belt. Also watch the KOTM at Slammiversary on there as well. Don West says it was for the first Undisputted TNA World Heavyweight Championship, not the first belt. The reason behind it was because Cage thought he was the champion, while Angle thought he was. Also this was the second Impact I ever watched so I have a good memory of it as well as I just watched it two months ago.--WillC 18:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're saying it was a strip. My understanding of Cornette's ruiling was that "no one won the title to begin with." Mshake3 (talk) 20:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cornette clearly says in the video that Cage didn't win, Sting didn't win, and nor did Angle, but he then went on to say that he was stripping Angle of the belt because of the screwed up finish they had and that Cage was still technically The TNA World Heavyweight Champion because in reality the finish was a no contest. So he refered to Cage as the World Heavyweight Champion for the ones that say he wasn't refered to as the champion for many months, also Angle's reign was recognized. More proof is in this video from TNA that has Borash debuting the TNA belt and saying that Angle won the belt at Sacrifice. You can't win something unless someone already has it.--WillC 20:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, the word "strip" is not used anywhere in the first video. He simply said that no one is the champion and that the champion would be determined the following month. As for the second one, sure, Angle "won it", which was how the story was presented, from him leaving the PPV with the NWA belt, and to entering Impact with the TNA belt. However, that is all nullified by the actions of Cornette, as shown in the first video. Mshake3 (talk) 22:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is my two cents, why don't you just leave the reigns their and create a subsection that says unofficial reigns, add a little prose explaining why they aren't recognized by TNA, then make an official reigns subsection and continue from there since this list is bound to get bigger. If this edit war continues I will request full protection on it until consensus is formed.S_RX 03:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds good, we can make a little section with Angle's and Cage's reigns below the history section. That way it will be a conpromise. I'm for it.--WillC 03:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not. Mshake3 (talk) 11:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm okay with that, as long as Christian and Angle are not attached to the table of official champions. MC511 (talk) 14:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NWATNA era fused with TNA?

I believe that the past reigns with NWATNA (example, AJ's three reigns) should be fused with the TNA World Title. Reason why, is because TNA recongnized past NWA title reigns as TNA title reigns, so why can't we? Rollinman (talk) 01:13, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because that is revisionism and we go by facts. The fact is AJ won the NWA, not the TNA belt on his three reigns. Those are NWA Champions, not TNA champions.--WillC 03:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree that TNA's revisionism should be ignored. First of all, isn't it redundant to list TNA-era NWA Champions as both NWA and TNA Champs? Is Ken Shamrock a TNA World Heavyweight Champion or an NWA World Heavyweight Champion, because he's listed on both title histories now. And if we decide we're going to use this kind of revisionism, we'd have to ignore pre-Shane Douglas reigns in List of ECW Champions since WWE doesn't recognize anybody prior to that. Same goes for pre-Taka WWF Light Heavyweight Champions. Jeff Silvers (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NWA Champions reigns are not supposed to be in the article. Some IP keeps placing them in there.--WillC 18:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.tnawrestling.com/content/view/218/84/

That is TNA revisionism. That isn't the official history.--WillC 18:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Er, that is the official history according to TNA, so it is the official history. Likewise, wikipedia uses the NWA's official version of their title's history, even though their version is revisionism.

No it isn't. Did Ron Killings win the NWA World Heavyweight Championship or TNA back in 2002? He won the NWA. So he can't be a TNA World Heavyweight Champion. It doesn't matter what TNA chooses to believe is the official history. They did not win the belt so they can't be TNA Champions.--WillC 09:28, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Using that logic, Rick Rude was the first ever WCW International World Heavyweight Champion, as Flair was never called such at the time he supposedly was the first champion, but WCW retroactively declared Flair the first champion, and guess what, wikipedia recognizes Flair as the first holder of that title! Likewise at the time Tatsumi Fujinami supposedly was NWA World Champion, NOBODY stated as such, But the NWA now claim that he was NWA Champion, and wikipedia recognizes that! Wikipedia also subscribes to the bogus Title Histories contained on the NWA's homepage. So if TNA says something about THEIR OWN CHAMPIONSHIPS, we should reflect that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.141.56 (talk) 10:27, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't the same thing as the WCW International World Heavyweight Championship. After Flair was stripped of the NWA Title, WCW continued to recognize him as the "World Heavyweight Champion" (without NWA or WCW designation). He then lost this title to Rick Rude, who defended it briefly as the "Big Gold Belt" before it was called the International Championship. It's the same lineage, they just didn't settle on a name until after Rude's victory. And if we're trying to quote Wikipedia examples, see List of WWF Light Heavyweight Champions or List of ECW Champions. We've disregarded revisionism there, too. Jeff Silvers (talk) 14:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A better example would be the NWA World Title itself. Specifically the 1991 stupidity, wherein the NWA only recognized Tatsumi Fujinami has having won and lost the NWA Title AFTER Flair had parted ways with WCW! I will try and find it, but there's a link on the PWI site that explicitly states that the NWA only recognized Fujinami as having been an NWA Champion for the first time AFTER he had already supposedly "lost back" the belt. That is why WCW and WWE never/don't recognize(d) him as champion. And what about Flair's overseas losses? At the time NOBODY recognized Colon, Veneno, Jovica or Race's 8th win. Then in c 1997 the NWA suddenly recognize the Race/Flair switches because "everyone knows it happened". By the same token everyone knows that the Colon, Jovica, and Veneno switches happened too, so why not recognize them also? The NWA title lineage is a ridiculous joke, yet wikipedia follows the NWA line, even with garbage like the Fujinami reign. Likewise the whole "Ric Flair was the first ever WCW World Heavyweight Champion" stupidity was only invented by WCW after Chono had won the revived NWA Title in 1992, yet wikipedia treats that like gospel truth as well. Now if wikipedia is willing to subscribe to NWA and WCW wholesale, why not TNA revisionism too? 41.245.142.116 (talk) 07:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have to listen. The difference between the ECW/Light Heavyweight and the TNA title is this, the WWE ECW title is the same title as the orginal ECW title since WWE owns the ECW stuff and Heyman was also apart of the ECW title being brung back. That is the official history as such. They won the old ECW title. The TNA/NWA stuff is different since the NWA title is what was won before Sacrifice 07. They did not win the phyical belt that is shown on TV today. They can't be TNA World Heavyweigt Champions because of that. TNA can refer to them as TNA World Heavyweight Champions but it still makes no difference. I can call myself a former AWA World Heavyweight Champion or a ROH World Champion, I'm not one, but if my myspace page says it, do you want my name added into the history for both belts?--WillC 07:08, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is understood. The pint is that in the case of Fujinami, the NWA created not 1, but 2 title reigns after they had supposedly occured, and that is now the official stance, as recognized by wikipedia. The NWA can claim that Trobich won the NWA belt in 2000 and put that on their website if they want, they control their own lineage. The problem is that is garbage, and wikipedia would not recognize it. Yet wikipedia DOES recognize the Flair/Fujinami phantom title changes, as well as the stupidity in recognizing Flair-Race as "REAL", but NOT recognizing Flair-Colon or Flair-Jovica as "REAL".

Now with the TNA Championship, obviously that title did not exist before May 2007. But TNA themselves now claim(and their website listing the history of the Title) starts with Shamrock. Now why is there one set of rules for the NWA, and one for TNA? Either wikipedia should ignore remove Flair-Fujinami(but make a note that the NWA recognizes those supposed switches), or wikipedia should start the TNA lineage with Shamrock. Likewise the WCW International Title starts with Rude, yet WCW revisionism is endorsed on wikipedia. 41.245.165.140 (talk) 08:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have refused to see what page you're on I guess. Since the NWA/WCW title stuff is completely different than what is going on here. Take the Flair points and the problems with the WCW and NWA belt over there. In no way will arguing about that subject on this page will it change this title's history. We don't have to go by what TNA did. We are going by facts on this page, sorry if the NWA belt isn't. Just because TNA says Shamrock is the first champion doesn't mean that he is the first champion for this belt.--WillC 08:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. 41.245.165.140 (talk) 09:20, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, sorry if I've seemed a little short with you but this subject has been discussed before too many times as well as Cage's and Angle's reigns as champions and I'm just sick of discussing the history of this belt.--WillC 09:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Supports

The following section are to include Christian Cage's and Kurt Angle's Sacrifice 2007 reigns as champions. The decision was a tie. With 6 to 6.

(It appears to be 8-6 to opposes). 41.245.167.41 (talk) 06:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The other two came after the decision was made. It stand at 6 to 6.--WillC 07:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you say when the decision ends? Maybe they didn't know about this. It's 8-6, not 6-6, period. 70.68.56.48 (talk) 00:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because the supports and opposes weren't really to decide if we keep them in there or not. It was a survey. Anyway a compromise was made long ago which ended this. It was 6 to 6 then.--WillC 01:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Opposes

title History

I agree with adding the other wrestler to the list it make sense these is no different then when WWF broke off from the NWA they use the wrestler NWA regin as their WWF regin MikeC 08:37, 08 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well if you can give actual proof that each and everyone of the people that held the NWA belt when it was in TNA also held the TNA belt they can be added, other than that they aren't TNA World Heavyweight Champions. They did not win the TNA belt so they aren't champions. We have to go by facts not what TNA wants to believe.--WillC 19:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

because whenever the NWA give the title to a company it become that company title Look at the WWF title Half of those regin is when the WWF title was call the NWA-WWF title MikeC 08:37, 08 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was still the WWF title though. TNA never had the NWA-TNA World Heavyweight Championship. They had the NWA Championship. The reigns do not go over. The titles are two different championships.--WillC 20:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then that should be said about WCW and ECW and WWE as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supermike (talk • contribs) 23:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't my problem sorry. I handle TNA stuff. You have to go discuss that with people who work on that mainly.--WillC 23:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unofficial Reigns

The unofficial reigns listed on this page were never "TNA World Heavyweight Title" reigns. They were "NWA World Heavyweight Title" reigns "in TNA". They should be listed on the NWA page, NOT TNA! 70.68.62.37 (talk) 04:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They are listed on the NWA title history but Cage was NWA Champion when TNA lost the belt making him the TNA Champion. As a result of Angle winning the belt and TNA calling him and Cage TNA Champions on the Impact! after Sacrifice. It made them unofficial champions. What is the problem anyway, they aren't in the official reigns list? It has its own section.--WillC 04:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should just go by what TNA Wrestling actually says. They acknowledge that Kurt Angle was their first ever TNA World Heavyweight Champion at Slammiversary 2007. Christian Cage doesn't even recognize himself as a TNA Champion because that would make him a 3-time champion, he claims he's a 2-time champion. I even met him a few months ago and he said he's the champ and he's a 2-time World Heavyweight Champion. He was doing a little promo jokingly, but he did say 2-time, and those 2-times are the NWA belt he had, not a TNA belt. 70.68.62.37 (talk) 04:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His NWA title reign is technically one continuous reign. He never lost the NWA title, he went from it to TNA. Plus TNA's reigns on TNA Wrestling.com includes the NWA reigns. Look it up. This way is a compromise. Since you can't prove he wasn't TNA's Champion which is TNA's World Heavyweight Champion which the belt symbolizes. And you can't prove that he was never a TNA champion. The Unofficial reigns table is there to compromise that.--WillC 04:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see we are now recognizing champions all the way back to Ken Shamrock. Good idea, make everyone happy. That's how it should be done anyway. Those champions are recognized both by the NWA and TNA. MC511 (talk) 10:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

...How does that "make everybody happy" when that's the thing we're arguing about? Jeff Silvers (talk) 14:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They are separate titles. But the reigns are recognized by both companies. What if we had BOTH versions on the page, but hid the combined NWA/TNA reigns in collapsible tables and mentioned that the status of the title(s) is disputed? Gavyn Sykes (talk) 14:52, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I like this idea. Jeff Silvers (talk) 14:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fine with me, I'm tired of all the ips adding in the NWA Champions anyway.--WillC 16:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If we get rid of the unofficial reigns, I'll be happy with just that. Those don't belong there. MC511 (talk) 22:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They do belong in the article. Prove to me Cage and Angle were not TNA Champions. Prove it. Prove that as a result of Cage being TNA's Championn at the time he lost the NWA Title that it did not make him the TNA Champion.--WillC 22:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did not see the TNA Title at Sacrifice 2007. I saw the NWA Title. The next night on iMPACT, Jim Cornette said Angle is not champion and never was TNA Champion. He was NWA Champion though that night at Sacrifice, the next day though he was not given the status as being TNA Champion, as Angle thought. Cornette did not sanction it, so he made a KOTM match to crown the first champion. It's very easy to understand, I have the iMPACT episode too if you want. MC511 (talk) 22:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No No No, I saw that same episode, that was the second Impact I ever saw. I also saw it on TNA's youtube account. A physical belt is not needed to be known as a champion. I.E. the OVW Hardcore Championship, it was a trash can. Also if you want to get technicall the WCW World Title was the NWA title in the early days of breaking away so the belt can be renamed or used under a different name. So just because it said NWA means nothing. He never said that, he said Angle you are not the champion as well as Sting and Cage aren't. He never said he was never the champion. He made the King of the Mountain to crown the undisputed TNA champion. Not the first champion. Even at Slammiversary 07 Don West said the first ever Undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Not the first ever champion, just the undisputed champion.--WillC 23:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're going to have to pull a clip from Slammiversary 2007 because I never heard the words 'undisputed' in Don West's speech. MC511 (talk) 23:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Look up the King of the Mountain match on TNA's youtube, I believe that is where I heard Don West say first undisputed TNA Champion.--WillC 23:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe he said first pure TNA World Champion. 41.245.165.219 (talk) 06:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I heard undisputed. Does it matter what he said, in the wrestling world those two words mean the samething.--WillC 06:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I realize this may count as OR, but undisputed means "universally recognized". "First pure champion" means first TNA Champion that is only TNA's Champion, and not also someone else's Champion. Thus the first pure Champion of TNA who was not also Champion of another group or body (ie. the NWA). 41.245.165.219 (talk) 06:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]