Talk:John Ashcroft

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People, this should be an enclycopedia, not a political site. People quote from this website! It should be from a neutral perspective! ---

note to self (or anyone else who gets the chance to look this up before I do): the Operation TIPS page says that the U.S. post office is now considering participating in spite of having balked originally. Verify. --KQ

note to self: you forget a lot, don't you? --KQ

here's this delicious link for anyone with a keen sense of irony. [[User:Koyaanis Qa tsi|--KQ]]

• LOL User:erzengel 15 Apr 03

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Should a link to Ashcroftism be put here? It's currently an orphan.- Crenner 02:31 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)

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Is the "personal quotes" section necessary? Esp. given the content, it seems like just a way to smear Ashcroft. Moreover, we don't have a comparable section for other famous people, e.g. George W. Bush, Al Gore, or Janet Reno. I will remove it on Tuesday (2 days from now) if nobody objects. Meelar 04:16, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Maybe link it to Wikiquote, like George W. Bush's Page is? If no one minds, I shall do so in a few days. NerdOfTheNorth July 27, 2004

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To point out that most people in govt. disagree with some laws is to miss the specific nature of the criticism of Ashcroft--disagreement with abortion laws is more contentious than most subjects. Also, the criticism is not necessarily due to his religion. I have no problems with John Ashcroft's religion; it's his views on abortion that give me the willies. All this means I'm reverting. Meelar 20:28, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Resignation

John Aschroft resigned on November 2, confirmed on November 9. But so will all of Bush's Cabinet members. Is Ashcorft's permanent (yet?)? How should it be worded in the article? We seem to have a quasi-revert war. --Whosyourjudas (talk) 00:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Permanent. --Wetman 21:27, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Never mind now, apparently. --Whosyourjudas (talk) 21:46, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ashcroft is still technically the Attorney General. He's announced his resignation, and a replacement has been nominated, but he hasn't yet left the position of AG. According the White House, he'll stay on until a replacement is confirmed [1]. And the Justice Department website still lists him as AG. Until he actually leaves the office, the article should say that Ashcroft "is" the AG, not "was". - Walkiped 21:09, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Record as Attorney General

there is very little on what ashcroft actually did as Attorney General so far. --Wetman 21:27, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The "moderate/dead skunk" quote

I don't think this has any historical relevance to anything. Sorry to not have a sense of humor about it, but hey, that's life...

Compare the Ashcroft article to the Janet Reno article

It seems that the tenor of the Ashcroft article is much more critical & tongue in cheek than the Reno article. In the Reno article there is only casual mention of the two most disconcerting events ever foisted upon the American people by a sitting Attorney General, the Koresh compound slaughter, and the Elian Gonzalez debacle. --spacebuffalo 12:58, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Um… Palmer Raids? Carpeicthus 03:56, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

Anointing with oil

Gzornenplatz added the following line:

Whenever he was sworn in to any political office, he had himself anointed with cooking oil.

I modified it to read:

Whenever he was sworn in to any political office, he had himself anointed with oil.

I used the edit summary, "Cooking oil link serves no purpose."

Gzornenplatz reverted, with the edit summary, "Well, it was cooking oil."

How do you think it should read? Taco Deposit | Talk-o Deposit 15:02, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

I don't see the type of oil used as relevant. The fact that he had himself annointed is the relevant fact. The only purpose I see to saying "cooking oil" instead of just "oil" would be to attempt to ridicule the annointing. I think it would be better NPOV to simply mention the annointing and let people accept or ridicule it as they wish. Kenj0418 00:40, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

Someone unnamed has put the "cooking" back. I'm reverting to TacoDeposit's last edit. Does anyone else have an opinion on the relevance of "cooking oil" vs. "oil". I don't see how it maters whether he used Chrism, cooking oil, or motor oil. The relevant fact is the annointing itself - and that it implies that he see's his public office as a part of a religious duty. Kenj0418 22:21, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the "cooking" again. Though I think it is completely irrelevant to the article, I would would be interested in evidence that it was cooking oil every time. Of course the chrism used by sacramental church is typically olive-oil based, which is used in cooking as well. Perhaps every article that deals with anointing should changed to refer to cooking oil. Holford 4 July 2005 03:19 (UTC)

I would be surprised if it were cooking oil. To be specific, it is usually olive oil that has been blessed.

I agree with Kenj0418. Chances are it was probably olive oil, and if someone can verify that then by all means insert the word "olive". – Smyth\^talk 21:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

bad

you guys cannot cite an op/ed piece as a reference.

Ashcroft's Changing Position

This was blogged on kottke.org some time ago. I think this is very much worthy of mention. Anyone want to incorporate this? Before - http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itgic/1097/ijge/gj-7.htm and after - http://news.com.com/2010-1071_3-983921.html

Neutrality

I have removed a number of POV references in this article. And while it's a great pastime painting Attorneys-General as the Great Satan, be it Reno or Ashcroft, it doesn't make a neutral article and that is the point. Libertas

Cooking oil

I have posted the question of the cooking oil on RfC. Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 22:32, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I saw the request for comment, and here is my comment: I have some experience with the practice of anointing folks with oil (in both Christian and non-Christian contexts), and the act and its symbolism is what matters, not what type of oil was used. If it were up to me I would leave it out altogether, as it's not at all relevant. It also came across to me as sort of a subtle dig at him and his religion (that was my first impression). Oh, and for what it's worth, here is my POV: I don't much care for Mr. Ashcroft or Christianity, but I do care about religious symbolism and how it's presented. Hope I wasn't too long-winded here. KathL 07:21, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

The Crisco anointing is an undoubted (he himself wrote it in his autobiography) and widely-reported fact which is just a typical example of many things which, taken together, make many people think he's a wacko. As such it is relevant, and, since the article just states the facts, anyone is still free to decide for himself if he's a wacko or not. If you think there's nothing strange with his behaviour, how can you see it as a dig? There are some people who, because they personally like him (or because they're just partisan), want to manipulate others by removing things which they know others will see as wacky. That's not acceptable. If the article is factual and you think it makes him look like a wacko, then that's maybe because he is a wacko. NoPuzzleStranger 08:26, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Please provide citations for verifiability. As Ashcroft was probably not being annointed for baking purposes, if you are going to mention the annointment and the choice of oil, you should be encyclopaedic and make the additional effort to explain why he chose to be annointed in the first place and what sacred status the oil used would have under Ashcroft's denominational or personal religious views. Saying that some people think he's a "wacko" on account of this without attempting to explain how this may make sense to Ashcroft is obscurantism employed to make an editorial point. I agree with KathL that referencing a religious act as carried out with a seemingly profane material and then saying that these are the facts is insufficient and lends itself to interpretation according to predispositions which one ought to challenge with some greater burden of fact established by research. If you're going to raise, please explicate it to indicate the larger reasoning. Buffyg 23:51, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Here's a quote from the Omaha World Herald, January 16th, 2001, describing the episode in John Ashcroft's book, with quotes:

Describing the night before he became a senator, Ashcroft said his two gubernatorial inaugurations had been like those of the Jewish kings David and Saul, who "were anointed as they undertook their administrative duties." He remarked to family and friends, "It's too bad we don't have any oil." "Let's see if there's something in the kitchen," his father suggested. Someone brought out a tiny bowl of Crisco oil. "We chuckled about that, but my father assured us, 'The oil itself isn't important, except as a symbol of the spirit of God,'" Ashcroft wrote.

There are several other reputable news sources referring to the same thing on LexisNexis. James 17:00, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

rfc comment - holy oil is just cooking oil that's been consecrated. The comment would be clearer if it gave marginally more context, eg said "on one occasion he used ..." (assuming it only happened once). And it would be nice to know (and note in the article) whether this anointing thing is an Ashcroft peculiarity or something his Assembly of God church advocates. Finally, putting a reference in a footnote would be good, if it's not available online. Rd232 20:49, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

rfc comment cooking oil is relavent. If he was annointed with holy oil, it is different than if he were anointed with lard, tallow, or ghee (which would be very Hindu). Leave the reference to cooking oil in. Klonimus 01:23, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

rfc comment If he's using oil that is not consistent with the doctrines of his religion, it is very relevant and appropriate to mention. Putting in the quote from the article where he states that it's the symbolism that he's after would be appropriate, and would make it seem less weird. Also, this is a very good place for either a footnote to cite a reference, or an inline reference. Unfocused 07:29, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Christian fundamentalism

I disagree that it is not NPOV to add this article to . If it is, the category should be deleted in its entirety. James 22:36, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Do you think that Ashcroft himself and his supporters like to call themselves "fundamentalists"? Do you see that as a neutral term? /Jebur 04:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Fundamentalism is merely another word for extreme conservatism, to the point that one is more conservative than the establishment, which obviously applies in this case. Ashcroft would disaprove of being called a fundamentalist, merely because he likes to use the word pejoratively against a large section of "Islamic fundamentalists" he'd like to see disappear. "Fundamentalist radical," on the other hand, is not neutral. James 06:33, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

"Ashcroft would disaprove of being called a fundamentalist" - that's right, and therefor wikipedia shouldn't call him that either. /Jebur 02:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

2000 Senate race?

A question I always had, and maybe the article can address it, is how did John Ashcroft lose his Senate reelection? In other words, Mel Carnahan’s name won (Ashcroft stopped campaigning out of respect for his deceased opponent and there was a great sympathy vote from the Missouri electorate for their governor) but by what right did Carnahan’s wife take the seat and why did Ashcroft not contest it?

In other words, what if Mel Carnahan’s chief of staff wanted his position? Could she have taken it? Or, what about the man’s cousin? Why didn’t he get sworn in as the Senator from Missouri?

It’s not up to a given individual to decide that the seat is theirs. There has to be some protocol in place to determine who becomes Senator in that instance.

Was there a court case?

Eagle in NYC 10:28, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

As is the case in many states, the governor appoints a replacement until a special election can be held. When Mel Carnahan died, Lt Gov Roger Wilson became governor and said that if Mel won the election, he would appoint Jean. Holford 12:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)