Talk:Straight edge

positivity

i strongly disagree with the redirecting of things such as positive hardcore and "posicore" to this article. not all positive hardcore bands are straight edge, and not all straight edge bands are positive. Shattered Realm, positive? xfilesx, positive? no.

sort it out. 90.196.216.109 (talk) 07:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Sarcasm?

"Straight edge refers to a lifestyle and scene that started within the hardcore punk subculture whose adherents abstain from alcohol, smoking, and other recreational drug use, except in the summer."

Except in the summer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.13.132 (talk) 10:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Revert War

Can I suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Third_opinion as a way of resolving this? Millichip (talk) 11:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You be the third Opinion here then, which version is better? His huge cluttered one? or my short, neat and clean one? Correctus (talk) 07:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I might well be the wrong person to comment. I've no more than a passing interest in sXe - and all through Minor Threat etc. I've contributed to your version in that light. And the other editor's beef is that there is too much of an obsession with Minor Threat/ Mackaye. Which shows how little I know about the 'movement' now and reminds me how little I care about it. I couldn't tell what is clutter, and what isn't, without a lot of research. Priority is to have a stable article, I'd say. Sorry not to be more helpful, but I think I might just muddy the water a bit. Millichip (talk) 08:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

I think this article still has some of the NPOV problems it seems to have been thought of as having in some of the older posts on this page. It's clearly been written by people who are more familiar with the lifestyle, but the tone taken in the article is too familiar and involves too many disclaimant or footnote remarks like "Straightedge is a philosophy, not a religion..." etc. It sounds biased in parts and almost seems persuasive elsewhere. I flagged in for cleanup so hopefully people will try to edit out some of this and add more citations. Cwilli201 00:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thought I should add as well: words like "personal choice" constitute "weasel words," I would think. Cwilli201 00:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Is this really needed? Ted Nugent is also a legendary gun lover, and an active member of the N.R.A. (this in no way suggests that drugs chill you out)[3] What does that have to do with sXe? Tappanga (talk) 18:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

90s straight edge.

this article seems to skim over a very important time in the history of straight edge music. it makes brief mention of the 1990s, but should XxXSTRAIGHT EDGEXxX that really brought straight edge into the mainstream, like Earth Crisis, Strife, and Ten Yard Fight etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.63.79 (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

X For underage drinkers

On the page it says that marking people's hands with an X if they were underage never caught on, however this is a fairly common thing as far as I know (in New York they do it, I don't know about other states). It should be noted, in the article that today, many bars and clubs which are open to people who are 18, mark the hands of the underage in some way, and often it is just an X (sometimes it is a special stamp though, it does depend on the place). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.205.195.159 (talk) 03:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Now that I think about it, I've always been marked on the rare occasion I've been let into bars. I don't know that this is relevant to Straight edge proper though. It seems like the part you're referencing is referring to that particular era in DC area clubs. I've always been given a neon colored wristband instead of an X. Marking is common, but it doesn't really have much to do with straight edge. --Gimme danger 07:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

straight edgers

need to get rid of the term "Straight Edgers" it's simply Straight edge..

its not johnny is a straight edger

its Johnny is straight edge

Kidd13 21:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I use both. It doesn't really matter. Sion 14:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The X on the hand

In the article, the following is stated:

     An 'X' on the back of the hand is a common straight edge symbol.

I may be wrong, but I don't believe many people write X's on their hands to show they are straight edge. These are mainly used in bars and clubs for all-ages shows so that the bar will deny them alcohol. The only thing i have seen similar to this is glovelettes with the xXx on them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.199.195.65 (talk) 15:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

They do. The practice of Xing up (writing the Xs on your hands in bold marker) started with the bars and clubs doing that to designate a person as underage. It's quite common. Sion 14:20, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Enough is enough (RE: Neautral POV)

All this debating and arguing with each other isn't getting anything accomplished. The fact is this article clearly needs some revision as far as the lack of neautrality in its language is concerned.

The large majority of this information can still be retained without making it seem biased or denegrating into revert or edit wars.

As such, I've begun work on it (but it's obviously going to take a while). I took the opening and I'm pretty sure the result is somethign that should satisfy all parties while taking in mind that this is an encyclopedia. --ScreenwriterJeb

Thank you. That was some nice work. --Gimme danger 03:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

The following is moved from my talk page, since I think it will be of more interest here.

The criticism section seems to have fallen flat, which is surprising. How hard is it to find someone panning straight edge in the press, alternative or mainstream? I have a bunch of other projects in the air right now and don't feel like dredging through that sort of schlock. But I think the only way to breathe life into the criticism section is to find examples of people actually criticising straight edge. I seem to recall some good interviews with MacKaye that might give up some good material.--Gimme danger 23:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I do believe that the criticism section should be brought back up, it's a relevant section that could easily be filled, those who drink caffeine are just as corrupt from straight edge as those who enjoy other legal and illegal stimulants. --FiftyOneWicked 14:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Verse is not a straight edge band, but has straight edge members and non edge members.

Banner Request

I am hereby requesting a banner for users to put in their user page to signify they follow a straight edge lifestyle. PayneXKiller 22:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is not that awful really

It's short, it has some historical perspective (which it didn't at one point), a lot of it's cited.P4k 08:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently I'm straight edge, but I'm not punk

Or a rocker. Or tattoed. Or anything like that. Is there another article relevant to people who are abstinent to drugs/alcohol, but otherwise "look normal" (i.e. dress like your typical office worker). What would that be called? - Theaveng 11:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

> Straight Edge has a direct connection to punk/hardcore, I think Teetotalism comes close to what you are looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teetotalism - User: Unkown 7:53, 28 September 2007 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.159.100.225 (talk)

>You don't have to dress punk to be punk, but you do have to be punk/hardcore, or at least associated with a hard rock counterculture to be straight edge.

Corrections/Questions/Debates

I changed the introduction to include abstaining from casual sex as one of the main straight edge values, but said that this part was often ignored. while it is not always included, it was, without question, one of the original straight edge values. I suppose my main source would be from the Minor Threat song Out of Step "I don't drink/I don't smoke/I don't fuck". Also, hardline straight edge is not the term for straight edge with a gang mentality. hardline means traditional straight edge, sex included (sometimes even celibacy), veganism, no caffeine, and oftentimes no proscription drugs. the militant form of straight edge is often referred to as "hate-edge," though this is obviously more of a derogatory, jocular term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gtbob12 (talk • contribs) 14:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, once again for the millionth time, hardline is something completely different from what you just said. read instead of just saying the same narrowminded/wrong crap as everyone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.246.234.91 (talk) 01:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

straight-edge.net

hey there, this is henning and I am running www.straight-edge.net for about 10 years now. It has become a nice archive with videos, bands, lyrics, reviews and so on concerning straight-edge. we have grown to a ca. 3000 user community so far.

Is there any chance straight-edge.net could be mentioned as an external link/resource here in this article? Would be great.

thanx and stay true henning

henning@imosh.de —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xpurebloodx (talk • contribs) 08:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Straight Edge, the peaceful way

--65.54.98.104 03:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)I think it would be interesting to see more information about the positive aspects of straight edge. I used to run Concert Committee at Southampton College in the 90's, and a group of us-some who DJ'd at the radio station WPBX, who were straight edge, sponsored straight edge concerts. It was a great way to throw a fun, clean music show or straight edge rave, and we didn't have to worry about people getting sick or driving drunk. Also, I would like to know if there are any female bands out there. It seemed the focus was mainly on the aggressive male bands towards the end. I know that our shows were diverse and peaceful. I think it's hypocritical to be Straight Edge and then go out and hurt people. -DJ Banshee65.54.98.104 03:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Violence and straightedge have nothing to do with eachother one way or the other. straightedge isn't inherently violent or nonviolent. If you're looking for female straightedge bands check Walls of Jericho, Gather, This Time Tomorrow, Kingdom, and I know there are others but those are the first that come to mind. -d

Hardline

I'm editing this page to make it stop furthering the idea that being hardline is just being militantly straightedge and linking to the actual hardline page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.85.110 (talk) 21:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Content lacking sources and opnions can not be considered facts.

"It has been rumored* that more well known idols such as Dane Cook and Davey Havok (lead vocalist of the Rock Band AFI) lead a straight-edge life style.

As Ian MacKaye and Porcell were considered the leaders of the straight-edge movements in their day- today Pat Flynn of Have Heart is considered the "King Of The Edge"."

I think it would be wise to delete this part, Straight Edge doesn't have leaders, it is not an organized group or anything. Also rumors don't seem appropriate for an encyclopedia. 85.159.100.225 (talk) 07:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

FallOut Boy, so why was Pete Wentz snapped in trendy clubs drinking? Wrong facts don't make wikipedia cool...Guns2006 (talk) 15:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Davey is, but not Dane. I know Andy from FoB is vegan, not sure about edge though. Emmure 89 (talk) 20:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

About History

The following was moved from the History section of the article:

(edit: I disagree with these comments, and actually quite a bit of the below as well. I don't see where there was ever separation between straight edge and punk rock culture. Straight edge was always one of the many different subcultures of punk rock as a way of opposing the common degenerate rock lifestyle. Also, these "eras" are a bit misleading in my opinion and I disagree with labeling them. Yes, the straight edge movement has evolved as time has passed, but I wouldn't say there were different "eras", only bands taking different influences, this rubbing off onto another band, and so on. At the same time, you would have a more "new school" influenced band and an "old school" influenced band. Also, it has always been common for straight edge bands to play with non-straight edge bands. Granted often there would be a straight edge show with all bands leading that lifestyle, but the way it is portrayed below makes it sound like the two never mixed, which was clearly not the case.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.39.143.171 (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Sexual Abstinence

I have also heard people referring to straight edge as no drugs, alcohol, or premarital sex. Should this be added, or is it too uncommon? Thudunder (talk) 02:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The introduction covers that issue pretty well I think.EchetusXe (talk) 11:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Promiscuity

Promiscuity should be added to the definition of straight edge, not the "considerable debate" part. Because in the Minor Threat song "Out of step" Ian says, "don't drink, don't smoke, don't FUCK" That's also what the three X's stand for: don't drink, don't smoke, don't fuck. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.73.34 (talk) 03:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

True, the Minor Threat song did mention abstaining from sex, but Minor Threat did NOT invent the straight edge lifestyle. Therefore, their rules are NOT the rules of straight edge. And the Xs are for tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. - User:hsxeric —Preceding comment was added at 01:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The x's stand for the three stars in the washington DC flag taken from the artwork from minor threat show flyers, there is no greater meaning to them.70.17.64.52 (talk) 02:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

True, that is where the Xs came from originally, but over time they have been adopted as meaning alcohol, tobacco, and drugs by many edge people. Hsxeric (talk 10:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

source? 70.17.64.52 (talk) 17:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

"Out Of Step" is the source. To claim that one Minor Threat song gives the whole theology its name yet another does not define it is ridiculous. "Don't Drink, Don't Smoke, Don't Fuck." It's clear and simple. Those 3 values make the 3 X's. Those are not the hardline ethics, hardline is much more. 12.37.4.82 (talk) 13:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Again though, Minor Threat did NOT invent the straight edge lifestyle, just the term. Therefore, they did NOT define what it means. Hsxeric (talk 12:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Out of step also said "this isn't a set of rules" and says that playing golf is dumb too. You sure the third x isn't about not playing golf? 70.17.64.52 (talk) 02:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Dammit. I played golf the other day. I guess I broke edge? Hsxeric (talk 2:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Athlete

Professional Wrestlers are not athletes, as their job does not entail competition in an athletic event where the outcome is unknown. Athletes do not participate in fixed competitions. While their job may entail their being in athletic shape and doing things only athletic people are able to do, the same may be said of ballerinas, stunt men, acrobats, and magicians. None of these are athletes, yet they may be athletic.

Therefore, I changed CM Punk to an entertainer, not athlete.

                I think many people would consider dancers and acrobats athletes.  Being an entertainer doesn't exclude you from being an athlete either, as professional athletes are entertainers.  I'm not                 
                advocating a change on the page, just pointing out that you've quickly dismissed a huge debate. 130.127.3.249 (talk) 16:39, 24  
                July 2008 (UTC)JML

Chocolate?

I was handing around a pack of chocolates (a bag of Revels) when my straight edged friend smacked the packet out of my hand in disgust and told me that it was in no uncertain terms 'straight' to eat chocolate. We were sort of stunned and went quiet for a moment frankly and didn't mention it again. I could understand in refusing the coffee creme, but is chocolate now not straight? What chapter do you think she belongs to? OoohOoohAaah (talk) 22:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

None, she's just trying to be cool. and failing, because being straight-edge for many years I have NEVER heard of that. She probably got it from role models. Guns2006 (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Since caffeine naturally occurs in cacao and chocolate is made from cacao, your friend might have been upset at the fact that you were trying to give her a 'drug'. I know a lot of straight edge people who were caffeine free, in addition to the big guys (alcohol, cigarettes, narcotics, etc). Chilly grillz (talk) 01:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

From the sound of it however, her reaction and the attitude, she probably copied it from people she's seen as straight edge, thinking it's a trend though Guns2006 (talk) 15:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

for a musical history lesson on this, check out Good Clean Fun - "sweet tooth", a humorous account on the 1990s debate on whether sugar was vegan or not... also some sxe people think that everything that makes your body feel good is not sxe. chocolate is yummy, can't be sxe... for some people it is just a purity contest... 190.22.65.194 (talk) 20:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Gangs

However ridiculous it is to label a subculture a gang in comparison to the Latin Kings, The Crips or Bloods or some sort of Mafia is it happening and police are trying to connect bits and pieces of criminal behaviour to the entire subculture I think there should be a section in here at least mentioning this http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4084079 http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/3/2/9/9/p32993_index.html

Veganism as a core straight edge value

I am surprised to see that veganism does not appear as a core straight edge value. On the other hand, there is no sign of debate about it. Unless there is any objection, I plan to add it as a central theme to the article. -- M L (talk) 04:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

better idea: why don't you start ab article on vegan straight edge? most sxe people are NOT vegan, quite a lot aren't even vegetarian. some are raw foodists or fruitarians. veganism is NOT part of straight edge. however there is a certain subgroup of vegan sxe people and bands that deserve attention. vegan sxe bands would be for example earth crisis, purification, purified in blood, gather, seven generations and many others. a symbol for vegan sxe is "XVX". there has been a first ave of vsxe in the 1990s and we currently experience a second wave with new bands. vsxe is related to ideas of earth liberation, animal liberation and sometime crimethinc. on the other end of vsxe there would be hardline and muslim vsxe. 190.22.65.194 (talk) 20:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Recents edits

I am not pleased with the recent edits that have been made. The link to the history of Straight Edge has been deleted and now redirects to this article. Also some serious edits have taken place without "evidence" or links to other articles that justify the edits. I have never heard Veganism being a part of the core for straight edge. Some are vegan, some are vegetarian and some or not. But there is not a single piece of evidence that shows that Veganism is a core part of Straight Edge. I think we should revert to an previous version or maybe even redo the whole article. 85.159.97.6 (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• An editor redirected History of straight edge here because that article was pretty much an exact duplication of content that already appears here. I don't see anything in the article that says veganism is "part of the core" of straightedge. However, the lead paragraph does say: "Some people in the straight edge movement embrace a vegetarian lifestyle and others abstain from all animal products, a philosophy known as veganism. These two choices are considered add-ons to the straight edge lifestyle and are not essential aspects of the movement."' That seems pretty accurate.Spylab (talk) 13:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

?

"Straight Edge is typically referred to as a lifestyle in which followers abstain from the use of Drugs, Alcohol and from casual sex, which stands for being in a sexual relationship with someone without being serious about it. Some hardliners are also vegan and abstain from caffeine consumption. Some do it just to be cool."

Is the bolded part really needed? Oh and no BTW, Veganism is not a core value of straight edge. (13Tawaazun14 not signed in)00:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Just remove junk like that without posting in the talk page that you have done so. Stupid stuff gets posted on wikipedia all the time, just undo the edit next time. EchetusXe (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Edge individuals

Since there has been lots of adding and deleting recently of CM Punk as a straight edge personality, I figured I'd open this topic to discussion among us all. The last addition of CM Punk was deleted with the edit tag: "CM punk has no relevance or importance to straight edge. the article isn't about individuals who are straight edge." This being said, should there be a new section added to the page titled "Straight Edge Individuals" or should this be given it's own page entirely? Or is there such a lack of notable straight edge followers that such a list would be unecessary? Thoughts? Hsxeric (talk 15:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

If we're going to list almost every notable band that has followed this lifestyle, why not make mention of those notable individuals that do so as well? What makes these bands more important than the individual people also follow the lifestyle? I'd also have to say that CM Punk is probably more publicly-known than most of the bands that are listed here, and would probably have more of an effect of making people aware of the straight edge lifestyle right now. As far as an addition goes, a section on this article would be more suitable, unless we can get enough reliable sources to make a list with the length of, say, List of vegetarians. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 06:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

because what cm punk is doing is using straight edge as a marketing gimmick to further his wrestling career. It's already outlined in his own wiki. What he does in the WWE has no impact to what is going on within straight edge at all. He has no direct involvement in what is going on, unlike bands, so why list him? 70.17.64.52 (talk) 12:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

He uses it as part of his wrestling gimmick yes, but he actually does follow the lifestyle outside of the ring; it's not just something he does on camera to sell himself. Note the sentence you cite: Throughout his career, Punk has consistently used the gimmick of being straight edge, a lifestyle he follows in real life. Certainly there's enough room on this article for people who follow the lifestyle, and Punk is (despite your claims otherwise) one of those followers. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 19:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

and that's exactly my point, all he does is use if for a marketing gimmick. He very well may actually be straight edge in his "real life", but he has no interaction or involvement with the movement/lifestyle as a whole, therefore mention here as opposed to the wiki entry about him doesn't really make such sense. 70.17.64.52 (talk) 20:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

well what does one need to do to "interact" or be "involved with the movement?" I thought straight edge was a lifestyle, not a platform for social change. afterall, we aren't out to try and convert people or anything like that. Hsxeric (talk 2:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

have you listened to the lyrics of most straight edge songs? It's all about social change, just not necessarily forcefully. If it's just a lifestyle choice and not about social change, the what's the point of it existing and then how is it any different from simply being drug free? If someone wants to point out where CM Punk has done anything more with the straight edge community than just calling himself straight edge and having tattoo's then I'll change my tune, but until then, my opinion stands. 70.17.64.52 (talk) 11:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I don't know a thing about CM Punk, but being a popular WWE wrestler, chances are that kids out there are affected and influenced by him. Just think about wrestling fans who don't listen to hardcore and may have never heard of straight edge. Because of him, they probably now know what it is. Sure, I can't prove this, but how can you prove that he hasn't influnced anyone? Hsxeric (talk 10:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying he made people aware of the "label" straight edge both for the good and bad i.e. his gimmick of "straight edge means I'm better than you", what I am saying is that his being straight edge is covered in his own wiki and that his gimmick has no impact on what is happening in straight edge today. 70.17.64.52 (talk) 00:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Removed "saying straight edge and drug free but most dont know if it is just his gimmick or that he actually is straight edge." Try to keep the material NPOV please and avoid weasel words. Livewireo (talk) 03:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Record Labels

The only straight edge record labels that currently exist are Double Crossed (UK), and Seventh Dagger (US). I do NOT work for Seventh Dagger yet for some reason this information keeps getting deleted. Straight edge record labels are just as important if not more important than the straight edge bands that are currently active members of the edge community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.37.4.82 (talk) 13:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

and what are you basing that statement on? Neither of those labels are the first no are they the only labels that ever existed. 70.17.64.52 (talk) 01:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The site's also not a place to spam links for the label. If the label meets the notability guidelines, then create an article about it and put the link in there, but otherwise stop spamming this article with it. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 04:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Commitment records from Holland is also a straight edge label for over ten years now and there are multipule other examples. Also I think the list of bands in the Era 2000 section isn't representative for that area, I see some bands listed that have little or no relevance and are probably added by fans of those bands but they dont represent a real view of the most important bands from this era. 85.159.97.5 (talk) 06:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

New Picture

The New main picture for the article is a little amateurish and frankly doesn't represent the straight edge culture too accurately. Perhaps something like a well known and reputable album cover from a iconic edge band, like Ten Yard Fight, of Earth Crisis would be more appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edgelife (talk • contribs) 21:12, 8 October 2008 (UTC) FUCK!