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Yeah, I know it's *possible* to research my past activities, my question is why? This discussion has resolved around me and what you perceive to be my character flaws, and as Musicaindustrial pointed out, that's simply ad hominem and beside the point. Your mention of my nomination to merge metalcore into deathcore is along these lines -- yeah, I made that suggestion, and apparently it offended you. Can we talk less about me and more about the actual topics of these pages? As for your other point: Have you read the sentence in question? "Contemporary mathcore groups, such as Dillinger Escape Plan, have also been associated with grind." So, fine, they can be a mixture of post-hardcore and grind or a mixture of math rock and grind or whatever else various commentators have mentioned, but the *association* with grindcore is what's relevant to this page. And yeah, whatever, Relapse is a more prestigious label than Epitaph. Epitaph is still an entirely reliable source in discussing the character of bands they promote. Aryder779 (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's no research involved. Its clicking your talk page. Which you've also done regarding me so I'm wondering why you even bother acting as if someone raided your CIA dossier. And DEP have never been associated with grindcore, is the issue. Ever. They have more in relation to Mr.Bungle and Earth Crisis than they have anything to do with grind. I understand that its not an outright claim, but to even say "have been associated with" is incorrect as that statement has probably only been uttered by people who don't know what grind sounds like. And again, refrain from thinking this is all qualitative. Relapse is a traditionally grind/death metal label that happens to house a few doom and mathcore bands while Epitaph is just an umbrella label that carried one of their EP's. DEP is not an Epitaph band, and their sales pitch is horribly misinformed. Logically, I would try quoting their current label of 5 years which do carry descriptions of all the music they carry and bands on the roster, than the home of Bad Religion. Then again, I try to be accurate. DEP is in no way relevant to this article. How about we discuss how to expand the coverage of actual grind and bands actually influenced by grind in the article rather than grasping for straws and making POV additions? And its not being offended, its recognizing that its suspect for someone to try and snuff a wikipedia article out of existence immediately after being called out on abstract and incorrect additions to this article that at best could be described as the pov of a small minority of fans and not established ideas. All of these discussions center around the article, it just so happens that recent edits were made by you, and they're terrible, so opinions are being voiced. Constantly claiming "ad hominem attacks" are for the lazy who can't bother debating their own point or in this case, assertions brought against them involving questionable personal opinion and investment into these edits. And you might want to stop your tea party to review your own judgments of character against your critics. Goregrind looks promising and only needs to have some more history and bands added to it to be adequately fleshed out. Though scant, there's enough details to easily and quickly bring it up to snuff. And how's metalcore going, by the way?Karen_Carpentry (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 15:58, 17 September 2008 (UTC).[reply]
The assessment of the failings of Epitaph Records' promotional material is your opinion, as are statements made about the "parameters" of grindcore and who does or does not know what grind sounds like. You are not a published source. WP:NOR renders this discussion pointless. Aryder779 (talk) 16:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Will the good sir from Rhode Island please actually read my comments and not blithely skim them? It'd behoove him to actual recognize and comprehend the text you are answering, a-thank-you. I shall refrain from quipping the gentle quail from Providence until he/she accurately responds to said text with a sense of comprehension and blithe interpretation. Also the sourcing on your perceived influence on screamo and mathcore are highly suspect and paper thin. You might as well cite blogs, then, considering none of your sources holds water. Karen_Carpentry (talk) 07:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts...If your viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents" You're one of a very scant few people pushing this notion, and the only figure in your sources that could be viewed as a trustworthy inside opinion, Barney Greenway, refers to them as noisecore and not once as grind. Therefore these edits constitute pushing your own POV over accepted fact, truth, belief, etcetera, etcetera. To be disruptive would imply you're adding something of note or value, which I've yet to see. Since you're adept and skimming Decibel, try and find one single article that implies Dillinger or any of those screamo/emo violence bands are grind, grind-based, or derived from grind. Considering blast beats predate grind, and that is the only musical aspect in common with your erroneous assertions, you might as well argue that screamo is derived from fastcore and alternative rock. And considering general music sites like AllMusic frequently refer to black metal as "Scandinavian Death Metal" in some pieces, that is also in no way reputable considering the subject. My interest is in maintaing some factual accuracy in this article, no expanding it to fit my own woefully unfounded and uninformed ideas. Not saying you per se. A hypothetically person. Surely.Karen_Carpentry (talk) 01:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(I've created a new section, for purposes of readability and focus; I hope no one minds).
First: What you're calling a "trustworthy inside opinion" is what Wikipedia calls a primary source. Barney Greenway's belief that Dillinger Escape Plan and other "noisecore" groups borrow from Napalm Death's '90s material is a primary source (because he was one of the creators of that material), substantiated by a secondary source (the article I cite that includes his comments). Wikipedia does not primarily deal with primary sources; rather, it draws information from secondary sources, which "draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims". This describes the other three sources I've cited. Now, it's true that Greenway does not say that Dillinger Escape Plan is a grindcore band; he says they're a noisecore band that borrows from grindcore. This is why I didn't insert anything about DEP into the "1990s" subsection of the "History". This sentence is in the "Legacy" section, which deals other musicians who are not grindcore (Andrew W.K., Naked City, Panacea, Merzbow, etc.), but who have some debt or relationship to the style. Which is exactly what Greenway indicates. The other three sources -- which, again, are perfectly viable secondary sources, not blogs, not Myspace pages, not tertiary sources -- support this claim. The Epitaph source is also quite strong, because it's an official description of one of DEP's releases (Irony Is a Dead Scene). I doubt that DEP's management would allow one of their labels to distribute information that the band considered misleading. These four sources are at the very least "prominent adherents", if not "commonly accepted reference texts". Your claim here seems to be that Decibel and only Decibel is an acceptable source, and this seems like an unusual criterion, partly because not all their content is available online. If you had a reliable source that said something to the effect of "Some people think that DEP takes some influence from grindcore, but this is false, and here's why", then you would at least have grounds for suggesting controversy or for considering my sources to represent a fringe view, and then that could be documented in the article, but such a reference has not been brought to my attention. Aryder779 (talk) 14:47, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As a side note: I'm more than willing to continue having this discussion, and I'll continue to defend every single sentence in this article that has a supporting secondary source if that's what's going to be required of me. However, I would like to suggest that everyone's time would be better spent adding information on important developments in grindcore, rather than attempting to negate the statements that have already been documented. One of my interlocutors suggested that "elaboration on the influence of other genres on the development of grind (sludge, powerviolence, black metal even)" would be a welcome addition, and I couldn't agree more. This Greenway interview has made me want to do more research on Napalm Death's post-Mick Harris work and its status (grind? post-grind? deathgrind? death metal?). But I won't have the time to do any of that research if I'm going to be spending all my time on these relatively minor concerns. Aryder779 (talk) 16:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so Seethingnuclearchaos put Daughters and Some Girls down in the "Legacy" section, which is alright by me, and then I revised the mathcore and screamo sentences. So it now reads: "Contemporary mathcore groups, such as Dillinger Escape Plan, Some Girls, and Daughters, and screamo groups, like Circle Takes the Square, pg. 99, Hot Cross, Orchid, and Saetia, have been associated with grindcore by some commentators, while also including elements of post-hardcore." Is that cool with everybody? I don't really think of DEP as being in the same subgenre as Some Girls and Daughters, but I think the sources allow this kind of claim, and I think it cleans things up. Aryder779 (talk) 19:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think that this source allows mathcore to be listed as a derivative: "Contemporary grindcore bands such as The Dillinger Escape Plan [...] have developed avant-garde versions of the genre incorporating frequent time signature changes and complex sounds that at times recall free jazz." Keith Kahn-Harris (2007), Extreme Metal, Berg Publishers, ISBN 1-84520-399-2, p. 4.
Merger suggestion
Superfopp suggested that deathgrind and goregrind be merged into this article, which is fine with me, though there's been some resistance to that notion in the past. Aryder779 (talk) 14:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in the process of merging deathgrind with this article. I've added a number of bands to the '90s and 2000s sections, with references. If no one can provide more sources for information on the deathgrind page, I'm going to redirect it in the next few days. Aryder779 (talk) 19:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think goregrind can stay for now. It's possible that in the future, the information should be incorporated into this page, but goregrind is attested to by the sources as a distinct style (basically invented by Carcass). I've eliminated OR and filled out the definition on that page. Aryder779 (talk) 20:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Death metal or extreme metal?
Ok, Superfopp changed "Extreme metal" to "Death metal" in the infobox "stylistic origins", on the grounds that it's more specific. Which is fine with me. Grindcore certainly does borrow from black metal.
The problem is this: Grindcore sort of borrows from early black metal as well. Repulsion and Napalm Death take influence from Venom and Celtic Frost. Who're arguably "first wave" black metal groups. So we could list both black metal and death metal. But we should possibly add "avant-garde metal", as well, as this possibly described Celtic Frost best.
There was a similar issue when Shadow Fighter replaced "industrial music" with "industrial rock". I would say that ND generally borrows from Throbbing Gristle and Whitehouse, who are "industrial music", I suppose (though Whitehouse in some ways dissociated themselves from that label). But they also take inspiration from Swans, who're "industrial rock". Or "noise rock", which isn't listed in the box either.
Is there any criteria anyone can recommend for this issue? I mean Napalm Death and other grindcore groups pretty much borrow from everything that happened in underground extreme music from 1975-1985, and that's a lot to acknowledge. Aryder779 (talk) 00:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Grindcore was really influenced by Black Metal... maybe by Venom, but in a very early, formative stage. And early Celtic Frost, in the mid-1980s, was simply considered a death metal group, just like early Bathory, Hellhammer and early Sodom were. They're considered BM nowadays because of the revisionism perpetrated by the 2nd Wave of Black Metal bands in the early 1990s, something that apparently most extreme metal-invested Wikipedia editors aren't aware of.
There's also another rather troublesome issue. Some 2nd wave black metal groups are favorable towards right-wing totalitarian ideologies - Nazism, Fascism, etc. - which are almost the polar opposite to the political leanings of grindcore.
I agree with your conclusion. However -- were Celtic Frost really considered a death metal group? Not thrash metal or avant-garde metal? They're not discussed in Mudrian's book. Also, while grind is typically left wing and black metal is often right wing, that doesn't mean no influence would've occurred between the two camps. Darkthrone borrows from crust punk, and I don't think Darkthrone has much sympathy for anarchism. Grindcore definitely did borrow from Throbbing Gristle and Whitehouse, and both those groups have questionable political ideas. I guess the real issue with black metal is the revisionism you mention -- Venom had an album called "Black Metal", but nobody really thought of it as a distinct genre until the second wave. The first wave is kind of a retroversion, right?
For information on Celtic Frost being considered death metal in the mid-1980s, I'd recommed you a source: the book Are You Morbid?, written by none other than Thomas Gabriel Fischer himself, a.k.a. Tom Warrior. It's a very readable inside look of the extreme metal scene in the early days, written by one of the brightest guys to ever enter the genre. I used it as a reference for some edits I did on the Wikipedia's Hellhammer article. Here's a link to it on Amazon.com [5]. Sadly, this book is now out-of-print, and the price for acquiring it is currently very sour. Musicaindustrial (talk) 22:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Blast beat
I made a "blast beat" section, and recommended it be expanded. The blast beat article is actually quite good, but doesn't cite sources. So, as of now, Repulsion is the only thing we have cited, but we all know that DRI and others used blast beats. Anybody have any idea how we can trace this genealogy? Musicaindustrial, perhaps? Aryder779 (talk) 00:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
5th eye added a sentence to this section saying that blast beats are included in "most, if not all" grindcore. Can't we just go all out and say it's a characteristic of *all* grindcore? Is it possible to imagine a grindcore song that had no blast beats? Aryder779 (talk) 14:09, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's a great definition of blast beat on the review of a Agoraphobic Nosebleed album, available right here: [6]. There's also the Rockdetector biography of DRI which claims that drummer Eric Brecht was the inventor of this drumming technique ([7]). There's also a brief mention of the subject in Albert Mudrian book, Choosing Death. Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just heard the Beastie Boys's Some Old Bullshit compilation, and there's a track there from their first EP - "Riot Fight" - which features a blast beat. Interesting, because this EP was released back in 1982, a year before DRI's debut LP... There's sample of that track in Amazon.com, right here: [8]. Musicaindustrial (talk) 23:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You might be able to get away with citing the Beastie Boys blast beat on either this page or the blast beat article, because noticing a blast beat is arguably an acceptable form of primary source research. We should probably try to use that ANb review definition. Aryder779 (talk) 22:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Guitar Tunings
Why is this mentioned in the grindcore section but not other metal sections? Also, considering a lot of non-grind bands tune their guitars low, it seems like it's somewhat gratuitous to mention. Also, the guitar tunings section already does a good job of describing what kind of bands might use such a tuning. 66.142.191.132 (talk) 18:11, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
