Talk:Karelians

The Karelian language is very closely related to the Finnish language, and particularly by Finnish linguists seen as a dialect of Finnish. The dialect of Karelians who are citizens of Finland is however uncontroversially considered a dialect of Finnish, since that's the standard language taught in schools. Finnish Karelians speaks however Finnish. ??????? What somebody meant here? 62.143.8.246 16:38, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't know. There has still not made clear difference between Karelians and Finnish Karelians. Karelians are Karelians living mainly in Republic of Karelia. Finnish Karelians are however Finnish people like Tavastians (hämäläiset) are, or Savolax (savolaiset), or Proper Finns (varsinaissuomalaiset), or Bothnians (pohjalaiset), or uusimaalaiset. For example: President of Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, is Finn, karjalainen not Karelian.

In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet). Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect. Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish.

Kahkonen 19:18 9 May 2004 (UTC)

So what to do? We know, that there is two types of Karelians: Karelians who live in Finland and consider themselves Finns and Karelians who live in Republic of Karelia and consider themselves Karelians.

See link (about Finns called Karelians):

• http://www.karjalanliitto.fi/ (click link In English)

President Martti Ahtisaari's speech:

• http://www.valtioneuvosto.fi/tpk/puheet-1999/P990619.karen.html

Kahkonen 08:43 10 May 2004 (UTC)

We explain more, and state less. If you by "different types" mean that Savo people were transferred to Ladoga-Karelia, then write that with years and figures if you know. If you mean that people's mentality was influenced by the difference between being a serf or a taxed freeholder, then write that - or, maybe even better: propose wordings here if you fear that you might be misunderstood.

Although I do of course not endorse everything at the karjalan liitto site, I would like to remind you of the following prominently located statement:

Throughout recorded history, Karelia had been under the rule of either Sweden (Finland) or Russia (Novgorod), but its inhabitants were almost exclusively Finno-Ugrians. After Finland gained independence in 1917, Karelia was divided between the two states, Finland and Soviet Union.

--Johan Magnus 08:19, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I mean this, what I wrote to Tuomas in my Talk page: Do You think that other Finns and evacuated Karelians are 'different peoples'? I, and official Finland and other world, do not think. So you want to say that Karelians living in East Karelia are Finns? Or that Finns are Karelians? I think _that_ is very POV. Kahkonen 09:20 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Think of the difference between Finnic and Finns. A Karelian can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn. While all Karelians are Finnic, only the western Karelians are Finns. Remember that we write for an intended public that may know very little or nothing. Do not assume that the reader know anything in advance, but keep in mind that some readers might, so it's important not to "disturb" such readers with statements that conflict with their understanding (unless their understanding is patently false AND unusual), which would give our text a low credibility. I hope we agree that things common for Karelians are to be mentioned first; Things different for different Karelians are to be mentioned thereafter? If you agree with official Finland, then I think this is most of all a matter of linguistics, since I don't believe to be in conflict with official Finland either. --Johan Magnus 08:51, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I think this is same among 'Swedish-speaking Finns' Swedes or Finns. Following this logic we can talk about Swedes who live in Sweden and in Western Finland, and only they are Finns. So: "A Swede can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn."

But, Finns and 'western' Karelians are not distinc ethnical group and nor are 'Swedish-speaking Finns' and Finns. Go look Finland's official pages and post here, if you find distinc ethnical groups of Western Karelians and Finns. There are about 300 000 such Finns and at least 1 000 000 who have Karelian parents. So post here, if you find such numbers.

About dialect and language: The dialect spoke by evacuated Finns are not same than language (or dialect) spoke by Karelians. This fact has never criticized by linguists. Only that is, if Karelian language is a distinc language or a dialect of Finnish.Kahkonen 10:02 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, borders of ethnicity and nations are to a large degree arbitrary. Hence one must keep in mind in who's interest different definitions are. In accordance with many Russian sources, you can argue that those Karelians that came under Swedish and later Finnish rule were un-Kareliïzed if not evacuated to Tver. But this is not in accordance with the usage in either Finland or the English speaking world. In English, the notion of the Fennomans and AKS has had some success, which also reflects in the Many Karelias-article at Virtual Finland.

With virtually all ethnicities you can find some kind of influence back and forth with neighbouring groups. Hence members of a certain ethnicity that become isolated from eachother can often be considered to evolve into separate ethnicities. But again, it's not easy to say when such a process is concluded.

Are the Flemish ethnically different from the Dutch? Are Norwegians ethnically different from Swedes? Are Scanians? Are Ålanders? Are Finland-Swedes? You may have convictions making you answer these question with yes or no, but that's not my point. My point is that both answers are reasonable and in most cases probable. Therefore it's good to be careful in one's wordings. Therefore I reverted your recent change here[1]. Kind regards! /Tuomas 15:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

So why not to add these tips into page when they are facts? Saying like "In Finland, West Karelians are considered and consider themselves Finns". This is a fact and "we only list facts" - it's NPOV, you know?

And thank you, you are saying I'm not a Finn ethnically :-) Go and say to Martti Ahtisaari he is not ethnically Finn :-) Or Kimi Räikkönen.

What did I say? You should maybe read one time more?

By the way: You might be interested in the new page on Finns. /Tuomas 10:31, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Kahkonen 19:23, 10 May 2004 (added some more 07:40 11 May 2004) (UTC)

---

Again, I want to emphasize that: "In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet)."

This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.

"Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect."

This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.

But: "Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish."

See? If not see page: (sorry, in Finnish) http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/karjalanmurre.html

And compare (this is not same text, but you can see differences): Karelian language:
"Enne vahnas Karjalas oli vähä peldomuadu, sendäh mešäs ajettih kaskie. Kaski ajettih keviäl, konzu jo puuloih roih täüzi lehti. Puut kuattih, karzittih. Parembat parret mendih dieloih, karumbat päittih hallokse. Tulien vuon se kaski poltettih, sit künnettih."

http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/kaakkoismurteet.html Southeastern dialect:
"Myö annettii sil viel yks pien pala ja lähettii juoksemaa nii kovast ku jaksettii. Mut eihä se karhu kauva sitä yhtä pallaa syönt. Se läks juoksemaa mei peräst ja sai meijät kii iha vähä matka pääs. Mei pit taas antaa sil vehnästä eikä myö ennää hirvitty lähtee juoksemaakaa ku meitä alko jo vähä hirvittää se karhu kujjeet."

http://www.internetix.ofw.fi/opinnot/opintojaksot/8kieletkirjallisuus/aidinkieli/murteet/kaakkmur.html

In English: http://www.nordiska.uu.se/ICLaVE2/ICLaVE_pdf/Markkola.pdf

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Finl.html: FINNISH [FIN] 4,700,000 in Finland, 93.5% of population (1993); 300,000 in Sweden (1987); 12,000 in Norway (1993); 5,153 in Estonia (1993); 214,168 in USA (1970 census); 36,725 in Canada (1971 census); 6,000,000 in all countries (1995 WA). Uralic, Finno-Ugric, Finno-Permic, Finno-Cheremisic, Finno-Mordvinic, Finno-Lappic, Balto-Finnic. Dialects: SOUTHWESTERN FINNISH, HÄME (TAVAST), SOUTH POHJANMAA, CENTRAL AND NORTH POHJANMAA, PERÄPOHJA, SAVO (SAVOLAX), SOUTHEASTERN FINNISH (FINNISH KARJALA, FINNISH KARELIAN). Southeastern dialects called 'Karelian' in colloquial Finnish are distinct from true Karelian (T. Salminen). Finnish is closely related to Karelian and Olonetsian. About 300,000 are bilingual in Swedish. National language. Typology: SVO. Christian. Braille Bible. Bible 1642-1991. NT 1548-1976. Bible portions 1891-1986.

This is mentioned somehow even in Red Book: " Ingrians is not a separate language but consists of eastern Finnish dialects (the vernaculars of the Savo and southeastern dialects of Ingermanland"

http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/virittaja/hakemistot/jutut/vir98palander.html

And simply google "southeastern dialects Finnish".

And good collection of links in page http://learning.lib.vt.edu/slav/nat_ethnic_nordic.html#finland Kahkonen 20:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, I just added info about the south western dialects to the article, take a look and comment on that. I even added some footnotes to sites that unfortunately are in Finnish. Kahkonen, note that this article is about the language of the Karelians, not the Karelian language. -- Jniemenmaa 19:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I tried to add this information, but they always deleted it. You did it better, thank you. But, why there is still that stupid clause "Karelians living in Finland learn Finnish standard language in school." Of course they do! So do I and so do all Finns. /Kahkonen 7:40, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Different groups of Karelians

Let us make one point perfectly clear: The "Russian Karelians and "Finnish Karelians" are not the same ethnic group. The Russian Karelians spoke their own Karelian language (some of them still do) which was closely related to the eastern dialects of Finnish, but is neverthless a distinct language (nowadays most of the Russian Karelians speak Russian). Russian Karelians have not traditionally considered themselves to be Finns, but have cultivated their own identity instead. Attempts to obliterate the difference between two different kinds of Karelians are based either on misunderstanding and limited knowledge of Finnish history, or on some national-chauvinistic agenda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.30.179.130 (talk • contribs) 11:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I hope that those favoring the current version of the article would write their reasons here. The current version claims that these are the same people, which is 1) not true, 2) anti-consensus (also by looking at this talk page), 3) not backed by any sources either. By the way, one has to remember also the radical population changes which occurred in the 1600s. The article in the Finnish Wikipedia is in an OK shape. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

updated the article according to Minahan, James (2000). One Europe, Many Nations. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. pp. 368. ISBN 9780313309847. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) and Language Death and Language Maintenance. John Benjamins Publishing Company. 2000. ISBN 9789027247520. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help). More work is needed of course but I hope this puts things back on track--Termer (talk) 20:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Number of the Karelians in Finland

Some misinformed person restored a nonsensical piece of disinformation into the article. The numbers on Finnish people evacuated from the ceded territories in 1939 and 1944 simply is not the same as the number of Karelians in Finland, as the Fiunnish Karelia was not ceded completely. Cited information should not be restored if it it completely irrelevant.--212.146.44.208 (talk) 20:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)