Talk:Black metal

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Ukrainian Black Metal scene

Do not remove Lucifugum and Nokturnal Mortum from "The second Wave of Black Metal". Ukrainian scene is not less important and known than Polish or French scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Black pauk1488 (talk • contribs) 05:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

These bands do not belong in the "second wave" because neither released any music until 1995. The others are listed there because they all released music before then. Also, who is to say which scene is more or less important? ~Asarlaí 16:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Banning in malaysia

i think under the history section the banning of black metal in malaysia should be mentioned Malacath (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Important (sub-genres)

I just realized this page makes no mention of sub-genres, fusion genres, etc. Most of the other metal subgenre articles have small sections about their sub/fusion genres (see death metal) with links to the main article of that sub-sub genre. This page should have that was well. I propose a section that talks about melodic black metal, symphonic black metal and blackened death metal under their own headings (like the death metal article. We can even have a small black/doom section (see doom metal, they have the section). I will start by adding that section. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 19:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for adding a section for the legitimate subgenres but this black/doom thing smacks of original research and neologism. After all, the entry itself states that "pure blackened doom bands are fairly rare, but bands such as" so-and-so "may be considered part of the style, despite their tendency to focus on black metal." Doesn't sound very convincing that this subgenre really exists then. The doom metal article apparently has many problems so I wouldn't use anything from it, quite frankly. --Bardin (talk) 08:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Everything you say is true and I agree. That being said, black/doom is a real genre. I'm sure sources could be found, but it might be hard. I mean, think about it. Both black and doom are very underground now. So bands that combine both are gonna be seriously underground and rare. But I know the genre exists. Argentum is a perfect example (though they do not have a page here on wikipedia). It's just really slowed down heavy black metal (but not gay like "dark metal" [the stuff where they combine gothic and black metal, like mid-period Rotting Christ or CoF or other gay crap]). But, yeah, I suppose it can be left out. But the other "legitimate" genres should be added as you said. So far the only ones I can think of are blackened death metal, melodic black metal and symphonic black metal. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 18:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Its not original research. Doom-metal.com clearly lists blackened dooma s a genre, and they are in theory the experts.

Dark Metal?

Howcome dark metal is redirected to black metal?first of all what they mean by dark metal is that the genre has lyrics having to do with gothic influences such as depression,despair,sorrowness,melancholy and doom influences that also have death metal influences and black metal influences bands like Shade Empire,Graveworm,and Thy Serpent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.178.172.124 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Because it has been discussed ad nauseum. People argue over it and won't agree what it is. Also there are only a few sources that even say it exists. I agree, though. Dark metal is black metal fused with gothic metal, like mid-period Rotting Christ or even CoF (though they suck;I mean I think dark metal sucks anyways, but CoF is bad even for dark metal). If someone found some reliable sources supporting its existence then it could be made into an article. There has been a dark metal article on wikipedia before (about 3 times) but each time it was deleted. Too much WP:OR. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 22:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

well ive heard it called blathic metal or Blackend gothic ive heard of dark metal as a description tooMalacath (talk) 16:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Lmao @ "blathic." I've only heard blackened gothic and dark metal. Mostly dark metal. I don't know why there's not much info about it on the web (that can be found easily, anyway). It is a real genre, although I admit there are not many who have played the style and it's a newer genre. Also, I don't think it gets a lot of attention because of a lack of fans. Everyone I know who knows of the genre doesn't like dark metal, and neither do I. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 22:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Dark metal exists.It is experimental gothic-/doom-black metal. And it's from the post-black metal developments. However there aren't any realiable sources to describe what the genre's haracteristics are, cause it's a relatively new style with not many well-known bands to play it, so it doesn't have its own page. Xr 1 (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Cite your sources, please. Saying things like that without sources to back it up is like making laws with no police to enforce it. Zouavman Le Zouave 10:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this was addressed to me, however I'll respond.

There are NO reliable sources about dark metal.The only place in the internet to provide some information about it is doom-metal.com.That's why the arcicle of dark metal was deleted.I was actually against this deletion because in the metal circles, people say that or that is dark metal and give some explanations, as I did above.Also in the metal archives there are plenety of bands laballed as dark metal.But this could not prove anything.

I just gave my personal opinion.I think everything that has developed from black metal by some experimentation, like the music of Ihsahn or Samael, or Arcturus, is post-black.But no sources about that, just some Last.fm tagging...

Xr 1 (talk) 11:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright, that therefore reflects your personal vision on the musical landscape and not a reliable testimony made by a published expert in the matter. I think we should spend our time looking for sources rather than dwell on neologisms that still don't have established meanings. Zouavman Le Zouave 12:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This is talk page. everyone here can share their personal thoughts and views.It's made for this + I've already said there are no sources about dark metal so you could search but you'll find nothing.So, discussing further is rather pointless. Xr 1 (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

This is from a previous version of Wikipedia's dark metal article, and is the most accurate I've seen. (all bulleted list items below are quoted from that article.)

• "Dark metal is a subjective term used to describe metal bands from various genres that have combined traits from symphonic black metal, gothic metal, doom metal, dark wave and black metal[1] such as synthesizer use, acoustic guitar experimentation and/or operatic female vocals. The music can be described as an atmospheric, melodic, more sophisticated sound within the metal genre, and sometimes also with progressive touch. The lyrics are often introspective and poetic. Some dark metal bands also often incorporate death metal influences."

But dark metal is not a "subjective" term. If you really like metal music, you know that it's a term agreed by most metal fans, and a very necessary term. Much like another umbrella term "extreme metal". It should be noted that dark metal includes black metal, but NOT death metal. Again, if you really like metal, you know why. Dark metal should be sad, sorrowful, often slow, and just feels "down".

• "The term is thought to have been coined by German Band Bethlehem, with their album Dark Metal from 1994.source"
• "Other most important bands in dark metal genre, are Rotting Christ (mid), Thy Serpent, Deinonychus, Empyrium, Agalloch, Forgotten Tomb and Katatonia (early)."

Especially Agalloch, it's a folk metal (or neofolk, sometimes) band, but cannot be described by any better term than "dark metal". There's no universal definition on "dark metal". Some people think that "dark metal" is simply "metal music that is darker than the usual metal music". Maybe we need a disambiguation here. Pagen HD (talk) 10:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand that the dark metal article was deleted because there was no reliable source. But why redirect it? Is there a reliable source for dark metal being the same thing as black metal? Pagen HD (talk) 10:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Mock Black Metal

Should mock black metal have a mention somewhere. bands like immortal bacon throne, Asspounder and morbid anal fog are bands ive Heard of. although i dont think it is too "important" to include what are all your thoughts- Malacath Serve in Heaven or Rule in Hell (talk) 15:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it's pointless. Scskowron (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ideology: Militarism

Could militarism also be included in the ideology page. I mean, bands like Marduk seem to be very influenced by war and militarism shares some bounderies with nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.24.49 (talk) 12:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It could be added, but it will be tough to add it and keep it in a neutral point of view with decent refs. Undeath (talk) 07:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

1st wave of black metal???

Black metal used to mean any group that sung Satanic lyrics. The oposite being white metal which was groups that sung lyrics about the Bible. When Venom released the album "Black metal" it was reference to it being evil / satanic.

Its like saying Helloween are first wave Death Metal as they appeared on an album titled "Death Metal". Everyone knows Helloween aren't Death metal the same way everyone remembers Venom were part of the NWOBHM. Venom sound more like Motorhead only with poorer recording quality and production - Motorhead were a much bigger band with bigger label support.

The new genre taking the name "Black Metal" evolved from Death Metal groups who took a large influence from groups like Venom. Deatth Metal was usually satanic in its theme as with Morbid Angel etc who took much influence from bands like Slayer so the conection of Satanic theme with groups like Venom is understandable.

Black metal as a genre / sub-genre of extreme metal music started not with Venom etc but was started much later and was greatly influenced by Venom etc.

Quote: Wikipedia "White Metal"

"Eric Wagner himself has commented on marketing the band as white metal:

It was Metal Blade. Back then they called all of it ´Black Metal´, y´know, Slayer, Danzig, etc., all those bands, they are ´Black Metal´, so I didn't grow up believing in all that crap and I think that people didn't believe in it either. It was a question about marketing your band in some way, so I had to do it. So I did this. Metal Blade called us as a “White Metal band” and I just wished they didn't.[3]"

End Quote

I was around then and I read all the magazines (internet wasn't around so we all read the magazines to get the latest info) and I went to many metal clubs and concerts. As Eric puts it is exactly as I remember it. Those trying to say it was a genre were obviously not around at the time.

• The above comment wasn't signed, so I have to bold-text all my opinions.
• Black metal was born before death metal. Venom was NWOBHM, that's correct. Venom was also a black metal band, "early black metal" to be specific. Early black metal does sound very different from later black metal, but it was still black metal.
• Helloween isn't death metal. Venom is black metal. Venom is black metal not because they released an album called "Black Metal", but because they really are black metal. Slayer's lyrics were satanic, that doesn't make them black metal. Slayer is thrash metal.

Pagen HD (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

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Ideology

I've reorganised the ideology section. Some elements had been overemphasised. If anyone wants to contest this, feel free to revert it and state your case here. Dark Prime (talk) 20:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Although some of the information you added was relevant and useful, a lot of it wasn't. First, there are a number of statements that are either vague or in need of sources. I pointed these out in my last edit. Second, I think the section now focuses way too much on Euronymous. Although he might have been an influential musician, he's still just one (dead) man whose views weren't shared by anyone else in the scene. This section should focus on the views of the majority. I'm going to edit the section accordingly, and you can let me know what you think. ~Asarlaí 17:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I suppose I can understand that I might have exaggerated the role of Euronymous, but at the same time I have the following reservations:

• Hostility to Christianity is too narrow (given that there are also anti-Islam bands etc.), and hostility to 'organised religion in general' is too broad. Strictly speaking, 'organised religion' also encompasses Church of Satan among others, and there's no doubting that there are BM musicians who support such organisations. Hence I feel 'Right-Hand Path' is a better description.
• Placing atheism, Paganism and Satanism in the same sentence like that has contradictory tones (Theistic Satanism is certainly not atheistic, Satanism=/=Paganism etc.).
• I suppose its still worth stressing that BM musicians have had different reasons for their hosility to Christianity: from Satanists like Euronymous to Pagans/nationalists like Vikernes. I included Eric D's remarks on nationalism (which I forgot to cite, although it is in the same link as the Satanist one) because I feel the nationalist angle is exaggerated due to people like him, Euronymous and Infernus as well as the opinions of Ihsahn - who said that the sentiment from the 1990s developed from 'hostility towards society' etc. (also shared by Infernus).
• I believe the frontman of Judas Iscariot is a bona fide nihilist.

I'm not sure if I've got all my books in balance at the moment, but I look forward to a response. Dark Prime (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Mainstream Popularity

From the number of times i've been on this page. I have seen this changed from Underground - Largely Underground - Low to Underground - And now Moderate in Norway Low to underground elsewhere. I see this weird as this is seen as an unknown genre that most people dont know about. Just because alot of bands come from norway, dosent mean its very popular amongst norwegians. Alot of bands also come from sweden. Im going to change this Underground. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.2.212.116 (talk) 18:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC) I have to agree with the norway thing, but tis definatly not purely underground. I liv ein America and can still walk to walmart and by an Immortal album. And thanks to the internet Black MEtal has spread vastly.

It depends on the band and country. Black metal is said to be Norway's largest cultural export, yet in America, it is still relatively obscure. Some bands such as Archgoat, Beherit or Death Yell are still obscure even to a number of black metal fans, while groups like Satyricon, Immortal and Mayhem have garnered some mainstream attention. In order to properly label black metal's popularity, you have to take into account its overall, worldwide popularity. If one were to do that I think it would still fall in the Low to Underground label. There is scattered knowledge of the genre, essentially.

Right Hand Path

I'm not sure this is really appropriate terminology to be used on this page... I understand what the editor means by the term, but the term is only in extremely fringe use and as such likely to obfuscate rather than clarify the claims in the article. At the moment it is a phrasing being pushed by a solitary editor; few if any theologians recognise the term as legitimate, and as such I suggest we pick different phrasing. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 12:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• I understand that it is not a common term, but its the only formal term I've seen used to describe religions such as Christianity. Although most black metal bands oppose Christianity, there's been controversy in some circles concerning attitudes towards religions such as Judaism and Islam - and there have been bands who oppose these religions in their music, while some more prominent artists such as Gaahl have spoken out against them, so I feel it is worth mentioning that black metal bands are not solely opposed to Christianity. At the same time, I've also seen 'anti-religious' used inappropriately, considering that many black metal artists practice religious forms of Satanism as well as Paganism among others. I feel the need to use a term that appropriately encompasses Christianity etc. Dark Prime (talk) 12:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I can see your point regarding the general opposition to religions other than Christianity, although I'd argue in general this opposition is trivially covered in comparison. But the main problem is that "Right Hand Path" is not a formal term; I've not come across a consensus amongst theologians to say that it is, or indeed any substantial coverage within the academic field at all - and that is precisely why the term should not be used. We need to be going for accuracy and clarity; the term Right Hand Path helps with neither. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Black metal separatism in the early 1990's

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, it seems that a number of Norwegian bands were playing death metal in the late 80's and early 90's (Darkthrone, Mayhem, and in the cases of Immortal and Burzum, under different band names). At that point they began to feel death metal had exhausted its possibilities, so they utilized techniques that directly opposed death metal: dissonance, very little palm muting, more use of traditional chords, tremolo picking between two strings instead of one, a thin guitar tone, etc. I think this is worth mentioning in the second wave section. 66.142.191.132 (talk) 17:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)