Talk:Fireproof (film)

Hateful Quotation

I took off the extremely hateful vitriol that is quoted in the criticism section. I don't have a problem with criticizing the acting in the movie but this garbage of "the movie hates women" is absolutely ridiculous. If this is included then we need to put quotes from people like Rush Limbaugh on every Spike Lee movie..or every other leftist propaganda Hollywood movie. It's a double standard to include quotes from idiot critics on Christian movies but not include them for lefty pages because you don't like what their idiot critics say. Either don't include the ridiculous quotes on all pages or do..but don't disinclude them on "liberal" leftist pages and always include them on conservative traditionalist pages. Ridiculous how many college kids ruin Wikipedia by regurgitating their professor's views with the way they edit these pages!

Fair use rationale for Image:Firerproof teaser image.jpg

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BetacommandBot 07:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fireproofpreview.jpg

Image:Fireproofpreview.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:FILMS/Assessment request response

American Eagle has requested a reassessment of the article, and at this time it should remain at Future class (until the film's release). Otherwise a few quick changes can be made to ensure it reaches Start class at its release. I'd recommend removing the excessive links to Wiktionary for basic words and to remove the crew section (if you want to include that section, use prose to document the most notable crew members). Expand the plot once you've seen the film and add one more section (such as critical reception or box office performance) and you'll have yourself a start class. You can then either reassess it yourself or let me know and I'll take another look. Good work so far and happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 05:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Excess Wiktionary links removed, crew shortened (all I did was remove the least notable), I will be adding the box office results as soon as I see the on Box Office Mojo, and I plan to watch the movie on release date (September 26, 2008) and will expand and/or proofread the plot. I looked for any criticism it had gotten, and searched for awards, but I didn't find any. I will keep my eye out for any of those. A question: do you think I should shorten the "cast" section? I see that most pages on have about the top 5-10 actors and a few notes. I don't know about that. Thanks -- American Eagle (talk) 06:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced NPOV

The whole second part of "reviews" is complete unsourced NPOV, "Cameron acts like a childish jerk," "he—and the movie—hates women," etc. If a good reference is provided, it can be worked with. But if not, I will remove it again. And another thing, how is "The Onion's AV Club" notable? I chose my reviews and comments carefully, Baptist Press, Southern Baptist Convention, Focus on the Family, etc. Please do this also. Thank you. -- American Eagle (talk) 04:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The A.V. Club is fairly well-known and well-regarded by many; I don't have a problem with including their review, as it seems fair to include negative reviews as well as positive ones. However, it is unacceptable to simply quote from the reviews without providing links to them - references, especially for negative reviews, must be provided. Could whoever originally added this section please do so? Terraxos (talk) 00:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I have cleanup the section, and added the references. But some users keep adding anti-Kirk Cameron hate speech that has no importance to the article. Unless you will provide a reason why the sentence should be there, I will remove it again. Thank you. -- American Eagle (talk) 04:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The extra sentence is added to give a better understanding of Scott Tobais' criticisms of the film. The section of the review quoted before gave the inaccurate impression to the reader that Scott Tobais was criticizing the film simply for its message when the review mainly focuses on the unlikability of the film's main character and the perceived misogynistic undertones of the film. The review is properly sourced, relevant, and when matched with the cited positive reviews its inclusion passes the NPOV test. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadshell (talk • contribs) 07:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

"The acting in Fireproof is less than stellar in a few cases" is proper criticism and I think should be in the article. But saying Cameron "hates women" and is a "childish jerk" is not. That is anti-Cameron speech and not important to the article - not even as criticism. I am removing it, please do not add it again. Thank you. American Eagle (talk) 17:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Having a unlikable, shall we say hatable, main character is most deffinately a valid critisim of a movie. Feeling that a movie's message is also a valid critisim. This is relevent to the article as it is an example of a secular reaction to the film. Just because you disagree does not make it in-valid critisism. "Cameron" is not a sacred cow and there's no rule that says speech quoted on Wikipedia cannot be "anti-Cameron." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadshell (talk • contribs) 19:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I have requested comment about this. Wikipedia should not be anti-anyone. -- American Eagle (talk) 19:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The comment is not really about Kirk Cameron, it is about a fictional character played by Kirk Cameron. I added a clarification in brackets making this more clear. The entry is clearly marked as a quote from an established professional in the field of movie criticism, not that of anyone writing the Wikipedia article. The quote isn’t anymore “anti-Cameron” than the positive reviews are “pro-Cameron.” An article with a neutral point of view should give both views an equal chance. If reviews praising the movie's messages are acceptable, so too should reviews critical about the film's messages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadshell (talk • contribs) 20:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Except that there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT CAMERON OR "THE FILM HATES WOMEN"...RIDICULOUS! LIKE I SAY IF WE INCLUDE THIS THEN WE HAVE TO INCLUDE QUOTES FROM CRITICS WHO HATE SPIKE LEE AND MAKE HIS FILMS SAY HORRIBLE THINGS THAT THEY WANT IT TO SAY..IT'S CALLED SETTING UP A STRAW MAN AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THAT RIDICULOUS QUOTE DOES! GET A LIFE AND STOP TRYING TO SMEAR KIRK CAMERON JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE AGNOSTIC/ATHEIST AND YOU HATE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE HAPPY WITH THEIR LIVES!

The evidence is in the movie, as interpreted by the reviewer, film criticism is all about interpreting a film's content. Pages about Spike Lee movies are filled with negative criticism, and that's perfectly fair because critical consensus all about differing opinions being given equal footing. Who the hell are you to talk about setting up a straw man when you go around calling people you don't know atheist/agnostic just because they want to allow a full range of opinions to be heard about a movie, I take offence at that. Your delegating of the entire Scott Tobais quote only, even the part that wasn't disputed in the discussion before, just shows your own immaturity. What's more THIS IS A QUOTE ABOUT A FICTIONAL CHARACTER, NOT THE ACTOR WHO PLAYS HIM, if a critic says they think Hannibal Lecture is evil it isn't a smear against Anthony Hopkins. Just leave the quote intact until the comment request goes through. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadshell (talk • contribs) 17:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is what the quote says, "Cameron acts like a childish jerk, even in the reconciliation phase, and the underlying reason is that he—and the movie—hates women." That is talking about Cameron, not just his character. -- American Eagle (talk) 04:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks to me like it is an adequately-sourced quotation that has relevance to the article. The information is not presented as fact, but as the opinion of the reviewer in question. I don't see a problem with including the quote. 210.161.33.186 (talk) 06:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to find a negative review of Fireproof from a more well-known critic who doesn't think that Cameron is "childish jerk." But that still reports that the movie is not good. -- American Eagle (talk) 20:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the Tobais quote, but also added another positive review. The section now has one positive review, two middling reviews, and one negitive review. This is a completely balance collection of quotes rulling explaining the full range of mixed opinions on the film. The section seems to be 100% fair by any standard at this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadshell (talk • contribs) 02:54, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I am fine with the fact that he gave it an "F" and said "Fireproof gets hung up in a lot of Promise Keepers hoo-hah about reaffirming marriage as a covenant with God rather than a contract filed at City Hall." That is a critical opinion, and is fine. But the part where he says Cameron (and not just his character) is a "childish jerk" and "hates women" is non-Wikipedia and should not be here at all. Roadshell, please understand and don't add that part back. Thank you. -- American Eagle (talk) 03:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I've returned the full quote. PLEASE LET US DISCUSS IT HERE BEFORE YOU REMOVE IT AGIAN. Please read the the review in its entirity, it is clear in its original context that Tobaid is talking about the character and is only using the actor's name as shorthand. The bracketed section I added to the quote a while back makes it completely clear to anyone reading wikipedia that the quote referes to the character. The quote is relevant, read the full review and you'll find that it is not the "promise keeper hoo-hah" that Tobais objects to, he in fact says that the "promise keeper hoo-hah" is "just a cover for two fundamental points about the movie: Cameron acts like a childish jerk, even in the reconciliation phase, and the underlying reason is that he—and the movie—hates women. Leaving the quote the way you want it misrepresents Tobais' objections to the film, it makes him sound like he's against the marriage theme when he is actually against what he precieves as mysoginistic undertones. I do not see why commenting on the movies themes is not valid criticism, the various positive reviews quoted also deal with the film's overall themes, they just view them differently. If wikipedia can quote praise about the movies messages, it is just as valid to quote criticism of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadshell (talk • contribs) 03:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The onion AV club, while hilarious, is not a WP:RS. It's designed to be a source of humor and parody, not a source of fact. Since this is an encyclopedia, we insist on reliable sources only. --Bachrach44 (talk) 14:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The Onion AV Club is completely seperate from the rest of the onion publication. In fact, the wikipedia page for The A.V. Club states "Unlike its parent publication, The A.V. Club is non-satirical. Scott Tobais' reviews are included on aggrivate sites like Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic, which I think establishes that his reviews live up to the WP:RS standard of: " generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadshell (talk • contribs) 03:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Roadshell, may I ask why you continue to war over adding an unreliable, unimportant, anti-Kirk Cameron critic that is not even notable? This situation may need an administrator soon, by the way. I'm tiring over it. God bless, American Eagle (talk) 17:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Why do you continue to war over removing a perfectly reliable, very important, anti-fictional character critic that is perfectly notable? I'm tired of it too, but this is completely within the rules of Wikipedia. God bless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (User Roadshell) 03:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)