Talk:Sustainability/Archive 7

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History

We have arrived at a tricky bit where we need to work carefully together I think. The history section as it stands can be legitimately criticized for its emphasis on SD. I must confess to being not sure how to handle this. One way would be to tackle “Sustainability and sustainable development” head on (using this as the title of a section – or maybe “History of sustainability and sustainable development”). I think a lot of VBs and other people’s concerns are addressed in the current section “Environmental, social and economic cooperation” and it might be possible to juxtapose the history and philosophy of sustainable development against this “alternative”, more environmental, interpretation of the state of affairs. This would also give people a clear point of difference between this article and the one on sustainable development. I would be happy to try and craft this from what is already in the article and put it up on a scratchpad - but I first need to know if you think it is an appropriate way forward.

Some general house-keeping. Sunray thanks for archiving again - all these words in the discussion and so relatively few in the article! I haven’t forgotten your point about re-working the link between History, Definition and Lead in a logical way – and comfortable with you doing that. VB thanks for all those comments on the Definition. They are all good points and we now have them on record for future reference. It is a major difficulty in the Definition section (as elsewhere) trying to cram so many views and ideas into so few words. We have actually covered quite a broad cross-section of the field in the current version I feel although ideally they all really need expanding on like you have done here. A couple of final points about SD. Firstly, I must confess that although I am naturally suspicious of the economic/social aspect of SD the point that protecting the environment and natural resources can only be achieved through a cooperative effort between the three spheres is a strong one. Secondly, correct me if I’m wrong, but the UN sustainable development program was, at face value, an international attempt to recognize the dilemma of an impoverished and poverty-stricken developing world that wanted something better. It was designed to help undeveloped countries “develop”, but in an environmentally sustainable way (i.e. not necessarily follow the socio-economic model of the West). That might be a rather “rosy” interpretation, but what I am suggesting is that we cannot completely dismiss SD out of hand, it is not necessarily a “business as usual, carve up the land, rampant capitalism” philosophy– I think it has to be a part of our story and an aspect of NPOV. Granitethighs (talk) 23:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Given your comments, above, I would be happy if you took the lead on this and flashed it up on scratchpad. Extricating the section from an SD focus is, indeed, important. However, your point about not throwing out the SD baby is also valid. There is no doubt in my mind that we are better off with sustainable development trends (green building standards are a great example). The challenge is great, and every SD step forward is commendable. Sunray (talk) 08:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you both that SD must be shown to play a role in the history story; after all, that is how the history happened. However, to go as far as "history of sustainability and SD" is going too far. Our effort must be to keep this article about sustainability. If it cannot be done in the history section, that it can legitimately be asked if sustainability is a stand-on-its-own-feet kind of concept.

As for the developing world, last I looked there was very little enthusiasm among those countries for SD. It makes them feel gypped (yet again), after all those decades of developed countries assuring them they are on the way to... "us." V.B. (talk) 14:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I missed that point about the title of the section. My take is similar to V.B.'s that we need to focus on the history of sustainability. Sunray (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Moving on again

V.B. comments in red:

GT comments in green

S's comments in blue

OK, would it help if we abandon talk of environmental, social and economic cooperation other than as a brief mention, and that we similarly pare down mention of “pillars” and international programs? well, this is what I had in mind for the Organizing Principles bit. There are the Circles of sustainability (Venn diagram or concentric), the Pyramid of sustainability, the Egg of well-being... Briefly mentioning them and linking to the SD article seems appropriate. I have made an attempt at this but am not sure if it works (see scratchpad below). Before you get stuck into that effort … as usual I have a few points for your thought and comment:

• In spite of the many “meanings” of sustainability we have, at the end of the definition, given readers a set of points to focus on, a kind of “vision” for “global sustainability”. IMO this “vision” is very important because without it we cannot crawl out of the semantic and philosophical soup of arguing about exactly what it is we are talking about. However, the problem with this approach, as I see it, is that I don't find this "vision" one bit inspiring... if you have somewhere points that focus on sustainability, not SD, and are hopefully more compact, let's consider them At this point, I guess by "sustainability" we are inferring "biological sustainability" - or what you referred to as the "one and only pillar" or words to that effect. My question to you is ... what would be your sustainability "vision"?(dot points would be fine) Argh. My dot points begin: let's stop behaving like utter idiots. I am an idealist, I am afraid. But to be more down to earth and inoffensive, Robert's systems points make sense: "In a sustainable society, nature is not subject to systematically increasing:

  1. concentrations of substances extracted from the Earth's crust
  2. concentrations of substances produced by society
  3. degradation by physical means
  4. people are not subject to conditions that systematically undermine their capacity to meet their needs" 

This is doable, down to earth stuff, yet challenging enough. Perhaps it could be reframed as positives. Well, given that Robert's system conditions are scientifically based criteria for sustainability (one of the very few out there), I wouldn't tamper with them.

1. people might think that the points at the end of the definition are an irredeemable distortion of what sustainability is really all about, or that indeed... "manage economic growth to be less resource intensive and less polluting" -- now you know me well enough by now to know that this sentence is as good as trying to choke me with a spoon, right?OK, sorry, yes, I'll remove the spoon and insert a crow bar (alright only joking). How about if we remove the terrible economic growth bit and substitute "manage consumption to be less resource intensive", or somesuch. The point itself is good - much of our environmental impact is simply the resources needed for the goods, services and especially food that we consume. Well, look, the whole section basically shouts "God forbid we should do anything radical! and smells of vague bureaucratic jargon. Just like most stuff put out by the SD crowd. Let's not confuse "politically acceptable" and "sustainable". Hummm, seems like we are getting down to brass tacks. Ultimately, sustainability doesn't mean becoming "less resource intensive and less polluting." It means following Robert's criteria. The phrase we should probably be using is "becoming more sustainable.

2. Much of the thrust of these points has come out of the discussion of sustainable development. My own view is that the points are very good, and I do not think they need to be associated with SD – I am just pointing out that as a matter of fact I think this is where some of them originated. and the section says so in no uncertain terms! V.B. (talk) 15:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)