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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by JMST (talk | contribs) at 16:44, 15 November 2008 (Removing of links from article after Keep). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Hang on

There is a hangon tag placed here stop deleting it!! This is not advertising but an attempt to get an article going about a notable company for another article nominated for a redirect here.--JMST (talk) 15:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What this article needs

If this article is to survive, it needs the following:


1) Reliable 3rd party sources about the notability of it's existence.

2) Reliable 3rd party sources that any of those toys have actually ever been released.

If neither of those can be provided, this article will be swiftly deleted. --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As to item 2) above -- the only real requirement is that the article clearly state that the products are TO BE RELEASED, and some reliable, 3rd party sources relating to the upcoming products (pre-release reviews, etc). Failing that, information about unreleased products should be removed, but information about the company itself can probably stay. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure but currently the article talks about product lines and releases - if something hasn't been released, we shouldn't talk about like it has been. We need to clear about what's a) proposed and what's actually out there. --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have added products and refrences also the Indie Spotlight line another article which I think should get redirected here can be spoke of in a Indie Spotlight section which has had 2 varied products released based on the upcoming line. So it is released in some ways but upcoming in others? i don't know how to word that here to follow the rules.--JMST (talk) 16:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Editing questions

I will try and find better refrences for the rest but are we allowed to show Amazon links or stores or ebay to prove products exsist?--JMST (talk) 16:32, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proof that the products exist is a fairly minor concern, but yes, I would think that links to third parties selling the products would be acceptable. The problem your article had (and one you seem to have addressed) is notability -- i.e. anyone other than yourself caring about it. The links you have added to third party product reviews go a long way to addressing that concern. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:58, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds great I will try and find more product reviews. I do own a few myself but dont want to seem bias. I am glad my few changes have helped the article. I hope others will contribute as well as time goes on.--JMST (talk) 20:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An ebay link is proof that someone has an ebay account. --Cameron Scott (talk) 19:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I figured that but didn't know, I will steer clear of Ebay litings then.--JMST (talk) 20:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Product reviews from reliable sources establish notability. Consumer product reviews establish nothing. Mayalld (talk) 21:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When a huge toy collecting site does a review of a product that is reliable again look at the definition of reliable sources on Wiki. On of the other reviews was actually unfavorable to the company but it shows the products existed!--JMST (talk) 21:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You really aren't understanding here. The sites don't do the reviews. They allow just about anybody to post reviews on their site. It would be trivially easy to get a review of a non-existent product onto these sites. Mayalld (talk) 21:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing

The article seems to have loads of sources, but the truth is that this is a case of quantity over quality.

Inserting a dozen sources that don't meet WP:RS in the hope that the number of sources will mean that nobody will bother to check them is not the makings of a worthwhile article. Mayalld (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, my fixing the links shouldn't be taken as me saying that I thought they were any good, just that in their old form, it was difficult for people assessing the quality of the article to tell *what* they were. I think they are all pretty week - filler and puff. --Cameron Scott (talk) 20:58, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have deleted a whole raft of blogs, reviews that clearly have no editorial oversight, promotional material from the company itself, and most bizare of all, a link to a picture of a half naked woman in front of a banner with the company website on it.
That leaves us with just two references. One from Washington Post which seems to be OK, and another review that is very dubious. There just isn't enough to support an article, and this just looks like petulance from the author in response to the AfD on his pet article. Mayalld (talk) 21:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are not being fair at all. A review of a product shows it exsists! Wow pet article ok if that is what you think. Everything here was reliable sources I think you need to check the wiki definition of that sans the half naked woman which I didn't know about. You are just acting out because this came about due to the Indie Spotlight article and your opinion of this company not being notable is not shared by everyone. I think before one person thinks they can swoop in change the article (which is what caused trouble on the Indie Spotlight article) it needs to be discussed in the talk page first.And Mayalld didn't you say this page needed to be created to have Indie Spotlight redirected? So I took a shot and created it I am not perfect but I think it is a nice stub that can be expanded. And what gives Neca or any other toy companies the right to be on Wiki and not this company they have released products since 2003 from what I see.--JMST (talk) 21:13, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You think that changes should be discussed here? No. If an article contains clearly unreliable sources, it is open to any editor to remove them.
A consumer review of a product on a website proves that somebody wrote a review. It doesn't prove that the product exists, and it sure as hell doesn't prove that it meets WP:N
Notability isn't about my opinion or yours. Notability is an objective measure based on being written about by reliable sources. It matters not one jot if you can produce a hundred people who say "notable". You must produce reliable sources that attest to notability, and littering the article with junk sources to bulk it out is just wasting everybody's time. Mayalld (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, yes, it is impossible to redirect your pet article here unless the page exists, but there is very little chance that AfD will conclude that the article should be turned into a redirect anyway.Mayalld (talk) 21:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My view on this is as follows - if this article goes to AFD, it will die, I have no doubt about that. I am going to propose the following - that we give JMST and whoever else a few days to come with some decent references.. and then it heads off to AFD if they don't appear. How does that sound? and if anyone would care to look at my recent history at AFD, I'm not an inclusionist by any stretch. --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My view is that having already introduced one very poor article, introducing a second article with abysmal sources just to keep the company name on Wikipedia is getting VERY close to spam, and to disruptive editing. I would agree that JMST should get on with finding some reliable sources, pronto. If it doesn't have reliable sources by Monday, or if it gets another rash of junk sources, I'll be proposing it at AfD immediately. Mayalld (talk) 21:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


But you don't walk in and start deleting the non-proper cited material. The material needs a better reliable source so you take out the non-reliable source and add citation needed so a better one can be found by other editors. This is a community web based site where all can contribute. One person coming in and saying this is all crap and removing it is not everyone working together??--JMST (talk) 21:39, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry that's just wrong, if a source is non-reliable, then it's removed, we don't wait for a better source to appear. I will, however, recheck all of the removed references and see if I think Mayalld has acted in haste (and a quick glance suggests that's not the case). --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Having deleted all the junk sources, we were left with a whole section that was now unsourced, so it had to go. It would have been better if JMST had assembled all his sources BEFORE creating the article. Mayalld (talk) 21:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The shocker toys forum is worth a look (not a source just as context), it just seems to consist of people saying "is this out yet?" "I thought this was going to be released six months ago?" --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but their forum is a direct result of their posts. Plus it sites a huge list of products they have released so that would have to count as well as context.--JMST (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dosen't matter now the Vandal from Indie Spotlight article is here now [User:ShockerHelp] and I aint fighting with him this is what caused all this crap in the 1st place. So yay more power to the trolls!--JMST (talk) 22:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You need to take a look at WP:CIV. ShockerHelp (talk) 01:39, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You need to stop vandalizing articles and learn how to use Wiki properly instead of just teariong an article apart you are supposed to say why and maybe conribute something.--JMST (talk) 14:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References

So here I will place all the refrences so those in command can check them before they get put into the article.

If you want the refs checked, just put them in as a link, don't add ref tags
Will do I will start adding what I think can be used and hopefully we can come to some level grounds.--JMST (talk) 21:54, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • [1] - not a RS as it is blatantly a company press release
  • [2] - youtube is never a reliable source
  • [3] - youtube is never a reliable source
But these show ABC news discussing Shocker Toys?--JMST (talk) 22:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, they show three people in a low quality capture of something that looks a bit like ABC news. People can (and regularly do) create fake segments and put them on youtube. Also, you yourself described these videos at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indie Spotlight as a TV Bump, in other words, a paid-for product placement section. Mayalld (talk) 07:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are nuts those are not faked look up the newscasters names and on top of that I said the TV bump was for Adult swim which is a different video these two are a cbs news story.....Yes they did a story on a local toy company and I researched it it is not fake. Stop being bias and making excuses to kill this article and do your job and do the research! I am getting tired of this crap where people say this is not good enough where is the objective editors who say yes this is a real newscast or yes the Washington times article is noteable as it involves a major company Marvel. why is it that this company is not allowed to be listed but Neca and others are? just because Shocker Toys makes smaller products and exclusive collectibles they don't count? Wow there is alot of GOS complexes here and it is why I have a bad taste in my mouth now about Wiki and will be submitting my thoughts to the higher ups.--JMST (talk) 14:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CIV Take the time to read it. ShockerHelp (talk) 14:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, JMST needs to keep a civil tongue in his head. I'm NOT accusing him of faking anything. I am saying that youtube clips submitted by the company do not prove that this is a genuine news piece. It would be trivially easy to fake, including logos and names. As such, it isn't reliable. Mayalld (talk) 15:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree with you as it is not straight from the news source maybe I can dig that up. Mayalld I have to apologize to you as I felt I was being ganged up on and that was not your intentions. ShockerHelp has been at my heels every step of the way but I guess that is to make sure I get the right sources in the article. Let's all get along and work this article to sound right I would like my first article to at least succede so I can go on to write more. Again sorry if I offended anyone and I think the new version looks like we can work with it.--JMST (talk) 20:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • [4] - given that the toys didn't come out this summer, this is very borderline
  • [5] - Message board posting
  • [6] A myspace page created by Shocker Toys? Are you serious?
  • [7] An opportunity to "pre-order" vapourware
  • [8] Product release date is for February 2007, but never came out. Another example of this company's primary product being vaporware.
  • [9] Another "coming soon" link. This one from Dec 2006. Another example of vaporware.
  • [10] Yet another press release, vaporware, "coming soon" link.
  • New —Preceding unsigned comment added by JMST (talkcontribs) 20:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • [11] This looks like the paper version of the abc news article by same news person. This looks like ~200 words that say next to nothing. ShockerHelp (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2008 (UTC)Despite your opinion the story is the short version of the ABC news broadcast story by the same news anchorwoman.--JMST (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
D
What does it matter what the company did to get their prototypes done, and yes Marvel Toys hired a customizer as did Hasbro and other companies of which I know a few.--JMST (talk) 00:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't aware of that. It strikes me as somewhat unprofessional. Do you have any links? ShockerHelp (talk) 00:12, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
[13] Eddie Wires a guy in the clips talks about he was a customiser that started doing mock ups for Toy Biz.--JMST (talk) 02:13, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought the interaction and popularity made the article worthy even as research.--JMST (talk) 00:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm honestly not sure, but I would think not. Perhaps an experienced editor could weigh in. My view is that the number of page views and posts is not a reliable measure. It's hard to say how many people actually contributed to the discussion or even viewed the pages. Theoretically, it could all be by one really bored guy with a lot of time to create multiple aliases and posts, looking at his work over and over again. There is just no way to be sure. ShockerHelp (talk) 00:12, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • [16] Seems like a small news update not a PR sent to them about the dethklok figures.
  • [17]TV Guide news clip. Vaporware ShockerHelp (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • New below to be verified and added to article.--JMST (talk) 15:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • [18]
  • [19] ^Above and this reviews for Shockini products
  • [20] Company interview
  • [21] live interview with Geoff Beckett on Big Kev's Geek Stuff from opie and anthony on the whole Marvel Toys/Shocker Toys exchange. Good info and he seems to be a good speaker in person.
  • ref name="168Tomarts2008">Hall, Christopher (2008). "The San Diego Comic Con...". Tomart's Action Figure Digest (168): 9.
  • ref name="149Tomarts2006">Hall, Christopher (2008). "In This Issue...". Tomart's Action Figure Digest (149): 4.
  • ref name="145Tomarts2006">Hall, Christopher (2008). "The Kenner Legacy". Tomart's Action Figure Digest (145): 16.
  • ref name="PreviewsOct2008">McDuffie (2008). "20th Anniversary Previews". Previews (OCT2008): 413. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |First= ignored (|first= suggested) (help)
  • ref name="PlaythingsFeb2008">Benitez, Tina (2008). "Toy Fair A-Z, Time to Shine!". Playthings. 106 (2): 90. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |co-authors= ignored (help)
  • ref name="Toyfare130">Jake, Rossen (2008). "FanFare". ToyFare (130): 6.
  • ref name="Toyfare131">Oat, Zach (2008). "Hulk Smash". ToyFare (131): 24.
  • [22] one case that they do sell worldwide.--JMST (talk) 23:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

History and references

I've extended the history section, and added references as I went along. One is a primary source, but I think three (The Record, Washington Post and Playthings 2007) are reliable and (hopefully, if others agree) enough to meet WP:Note. I'm not sure of the status of the Comic Book Bin article - it is an interview, so I treated it as a primary source, but I'm unsure of the reliability of the Comic Book Bin. They're included here because it seemed ok, they were listed in Google News, and the one use seemed non-controversial. Anyway, there would appear to be other reviews/articles in print (going by the Comic Book Bin interview), so hopefully they'll be able to be tracked down. - Bilby (talk) 16:36, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New layout looks good and looks like it can be worked with. I will try and hunt down more sources citing the company itself then we can work on products. But I think that any serious changes to the layout we have reached should be discussed here before removing.--JMST (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This appears to be the Playthings 2007 article, "Next Stop: Toy Fair", online [23] It does not appear to be a reliable source, just a collection of company press releases. ShockerHelp (talk) 22:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a link to the Record article, "Christmas Comes Early for Young Ridgewood, N.J.–Based Toy Company" [24] . Article fills in some history, but is mostly about future plans and product which would prove to be vaporware. Shows a company that maybe could have been a contender back in July 2002 when it was written, but ultimately hasn't really done much. ShockerHelp (talk) 22:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As to the Washington Times article, it is inconsequential and apparently poorly researched. It gets basic facts wrong, stating that Lance Buttiglieri joined the company in 2000, contradicting the info on Shocker Toys' own webpage, which says he joined in 2004. This suggests that the article was just a light entertainment piece. The writer also doesn't seem entirely convinced that Shocker Toys will actually produce any product in this line, "Now, if Mr. Beckett's product actually makes it to shelves this summer, he really can celebrate." The product did not come out this past summer. ShockerHelp (talk) 22:45, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The "Next Stop: Toy Fair" article is a report, written by several people, of the products displayed by various companies at the Toy Fair. It is extensive, and Shocker Toys gets a nice, non-trivial entry. There is nothing there to suggest that it is reprint of a press release, and the presence of the list of authors would certainly suggest otherwise. The Record article, as you say, fills in the history, is reliable and is entirely about the company, so whether or not everything discussed in it came to fruition, it counts as a reliable source that speaks to notability. And the Washington Times article does make mistakes, so we need to be careful what we reference to it, but it talks about the company, problems with Marvel Toys, and again counts as an RS. My impression from researching them is that they are a small company that have managed to gain enough press coverage to meet WP:Note. Just, perhaps, and arguably not always for the right reasons, but enough.
As an aside, thanks for spotting some errors in my referencing - one was clearly wrong, and I agree that the wording of the other was less than ideal. That should be fixed now. - Bilby (talk) 23:38, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully disagree with your appraisal of the 3 citations in question for the reasons I originally stated. I just don't buy attributing notability to a company for merely getting interviewed about future plans, while seldom delivering on any of the promises. The company seems capable of generating a modicum of press, but not much in the way of actual product.
Also, I feel your rewording is more problematic than the original, attributing a conclusion to the article through selective quoting that clearly wasn't intended. As shown by the line I quoted above, the author appears skeptical of the company producing anything. As it turns out, rightfully so. ShockerHelp (talk) 00:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
[User:ShockerHelp] Please stop deleting my signature when you edit something I have done or reply to something I have said. The signbot has left me a message on my user page that I don't use my signature and I always do but when I come back to see talk page it says I didn't.--JMST (talk) 23:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Please direct me to the edits you are referring to. ShockerHelp (talk) 00:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you may be confusing WP:Note with notability in a wider context. WP:Note (and there was a debate on this issue not long ago) is primarily concerned with inclusion guidelines, and refers back to the verifiability policy. The question is not really one of worthiness, but suitability, and there it is focused on the presence of sufficient reliable sources to write an encyclopedic article. In this case I'm willing to accept that they seldom deliver on products (I stayed away from forums and other sources when researching them, which is where I assume this was discussed), but the concern isn't whether or not they are a good company. Just whether or not they've had sufficient third party coverage. As to the the Washington Post article, I was hoping the wording was better, but if not I'm certainly happy if we keep working on it. :) My reading was that the author was describing how a little company came up against a big one, and the comment about whether or not they released it was more of an aside. But if there is a way to write that in I'm certainly happy with that. - Bilby (talk) 00:28, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly may be confusing the two to an extent. I'll step back from that discussion. ShockerHelp (talk) 01:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tooling pictures on their forum of the Indie Spotlight parts on sprues the line set to hit market in December[25]--JMST (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment So from what I see there is around 8 paper trade sources mentioned. I think they have been in much more from what I saw on their archives topic the magazines mentioned were, ToyFare, Lee's toy review, Tomart's action figure digest, Bergen Record, Playthings, Stuff, Licensing Mag, Toy Fair Times, Toybook, Animation Magazine, Creative Child and Rue Mourge I am sure there are others. They didn't show any scans or issue details though so how do we find out? Do magazines keep a online database for their paper tradebacks? Can we goto the company themselves for info?--JMST (talk) 14:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removing of links from article after Keep

ShockerHelp Please post here to come to a concensus before deleting links! Also you made the ref section all messed up with duplicate links.--JMST (talk) 22:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also ShockerHelp if you can lump your large amount of small changes into a few changes it will be easier to look everything over.--JMST (talk) 01:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I did not delete any links. I added online links to the articles already referenced so that people without the printed versions could see them. I was in the process of fixing all the duplicate links already in the article when you reverted all of my edits. Perhaps if you excercise a bit more patience and understanding, you would see that I have actually done as much as anyone to make this a stronger article, one that could survive a AfD nomination, unlike how it has fared every other time in the past. You're welcome for that. ShockerHelp (talk) 02:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But you keep tearing the article apart with 30 edits at a time without discussing on the talk page.--JMST (talk) 03:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is ShockerHelp removing full refrence link info? Isn't that how the refrences are formatted so we can see what there from. He is once again vandalizing the article.--JMST (talk) 12:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All I see here is formatting to remove duplicate references - what in particular is the problem - please provide specific examples of where he has removed sourced comments? --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment [26] removed (2,500)pcs from Dethklok sets, why? [27] These are poseable action figures I have a set why was (action) removed? [28] How does ShokerHelp know that the Shockinis product are no longer in production, was there a PR stating the line has ended? [29] Removal of link and direct quote from reference explained what the company was working on at the time. [30] Multiple duplicate changed links with wiki error. [31] Removal of Reference info causing wiki error. Bottom line why can't ShockerHelp discuss changes instead of raiding the article with the highest changes out of all editors working on the article? That way we can all work together. I have posted suggestions here first to discuss them before making serious edits.--JMST (talk) 16:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sock Puppets

  • Its seems there is a few sock puppets here to sway the deletion or skew this article. [User:194.221.133.226] has been identified as a shared account and a sock puppet. This person was also identified as being banned from the Shocker Toys whole website according to an admin at their forums.--JMST (talk) 22:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ratings

How do we rate according to the inserts at top of this discussion?--JMST (talk) 22:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Generally, I avoid rating articles I've been working on, as I'm not sufficiently neutral. Eventually someone will come by and take care of it. It's more than a stub now, so it should be a "start", but some WikiProjects have gone with "C Class" now, which it might qualify for. But that's something for someone else to decide. :) - Bilby (talk) 22:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. I guess we can wait. I saw the warnings at the top and thought it was a time sensitive thing.--JMST (talk) 23:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Licenses

I'd like to see a license spot here which if refrences back they have the licenses why can't they be listed. NECA has a section like that in their wiki article. I will post licenses they claim to have and refrences that I find to back it up here.--JMST (talk) 22:36, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict of Interest?

JMST, are you the same person posting company announcements on the official Shocker Toys forum as jmst? 24.234.68.105 (talk) 21:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Take it to WP:COI/N if you think you want to make an issue of it. This page is for discussing improvements to the article. The personal back and forth is getting old on both sides here. --OnoremDil 22:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry. I'm new here. I'll do that thing you said if I can figure it out.24.234.68.105 (talk) 22:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not want to go back and forth with anyone. I don't understand why my articles and me personally keep getting attacked by non-user IP's and others. I just want to conribute to Wiki in all toys articles since I am a big collector myself and have a bit of knowledge. I think user 24.234.68.105 (you need a name lol) can do good things on Wiki if you are a collector as well. Talk about what you think needs fixing or changed in the discussions page and I will work with you. We are all here to work together =) --JMST (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the Washington Post article

ShockerHelp has been disputing part of the following statement:

Shocker Toys also started work on their Indie Spotlight series – six inch high action figures based on characters from independent comic series. Development of the Indie Spotlight series encountered some hurdles, though, when Marvel Toys announced their own plans to produce toys based on independent comics. The result was a "war of e-mails and emotional releases", which eventually concluded with Shocker Toys' as "the last man standing".

The line in question is:

The result was a "war of e-mails and emotional releases", which eventually concluded with Shocker Toys' as "the last man standing".

The line quotes from the Washington Post article Shocker standing tall after action-figure flap. The source is:

Mr. Beckett's beef with Marvel Toys came when his plans to produce independent-comics action figures appeared to be absorbed partly into his competitor's plans. A war of e-mails and emotional releases became a murky swamp of licensed-agreement reality versus "he said" hearsay at best. However, Mr. Beckett is proud to be the last man standing ...

While I'm guessing, I suspect that the source of the problem is undue weight. Rather than reverting or letting it sit, I'm hoping some consensus can be found here. My reading is that the article is about this topic (hence the title of the article), so a two line description is fair, but as this is the only RS that has been used for the dispute it may be that either myself or the Washington Post is giving it undue weight. To be honest, it is only one line, so edit warring seems overkill to me, thus advice just to clarify things in either direction would be appreciated. - Bilby (talk) 07:59, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well Shocker Toys 1st Line up for their comic book toyline was taken from them which the article relates to along with other licenses taken. There is numerous dated proof of the announcment of Indie Spotlight in which they announced their 1st wave of Indie Spotlight as Witchblade, Judge Dredd and Madman then awhile later Marvel toys announced their LCBH 1st wave which was the same characters. It is no doubt that the line was taken from them, concept and licenses. Should they have moved faster? I don't know if that is a dicussion for Wiki. But the fact remains they announced their toyline first and got sideswiped by Marvel Toys who at the time strangely lost the Marvel license and had nothing left to produce. May I also make aware that the toy line has been shown as factory made testshots which means that the Indie Spotlight do seem to be real.--JMST (talk) 15:12, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sections?

Should there be seperate sections if there is enough references to back up each section to warrent them? --JMST (talk) 20:46, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Suggested sections:
  • History
  • Products (inventors of an original toyline not just a licensed sculpt as well) see below maybe we can work into the article as a section to show they have released products.
  • Licenses
  • Controversy (they seem to have alot)
  • References (There is many but not all fall under wiki's guidelines)

AFD

The link at TOP for the AFD closing points to the 2007 AFD for Shocker Toys not the current. The current 2nd nomination AFD was a KEEP [35]--JMST (talk) 21:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 03:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you.--JMST (talk) 03:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Released Products

Shockinis - I have found over 10 versions of Shockinis that were produced and are still selling. (Male, Female, 4 Arm, 4 Leg, Mutant Heads, Skeleton, Kade, Toxic Avenger, Apex, Neutrex and Xenix.

  • Ruby Red shockinis - A SDCC 2004 Exclusive Shockini figure 500 pcs
  • Toxic Avenger shockinis - A SDCC 2005 Exclusive licensed shockini figure 500 pcs
  • Glow in the dark shockinis (maybe white too)- A New York Toy Fair exclusive shockini figure 500pcs
  • Skeleton shockinis - A Wizard World (date unkown) exclusive 1,000pcs

—Preceding unsigned comment added by JMST (talkcontribs) 03:59, 14 November 2008

Others -

  • GWAR Beefcake - A SDCC 2006 exclusive resin figure
  • Dethklok - A SDCC 2007 exclusive statue set of Nathan and Murderface, 500 pieces each
  • Mini Maxx - A SDCC 2008 exclusive mini vinyl action figure, 500 pieces
  • Scud Statue - A NYCC 2008 exclusive, 500 pieces
  • Dethklok - A SDCC 2008 exclusive set of 5 vinyl figures, 500 sets (2,500pcs)ShockerHelp (talk) 06:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]