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November 12

What is the subconscious of the subconscious?

We all know that we have a subconscious. It's been a psychological staple since Freud discovered it. It was there all along leaving clues. Even in those days people knew that, at times, they did things impulsively, they dreamed, and they knew logically that every action wasn't preplanned. And now we're aware of it. We simply gave it a name. And once you're aware of something it can no longer completely control you. The jig is up, subconscious.

I had a guy tell me once that he literally asked his subconscious for a sign when he wanted to make a tough decision. It sounded a little crazy, until I realized that we dream and have bursts of inspiration all the time. The strange thing is, sometimes a solution will appear in a dream. My point here is twofold. 1. Since we've become aware of our subconscious, we can somewhat manipulate it, and not just let it roam around free, creating unconscious havoc 24/7. 2. Something is driving that. The subconscious "runs" on something. And once we figure out what it is we will have total control!....I think. I have a sneaking hunch that that something is being run by something as well. But, I'm getting a little ahead here. One step at a time. The thing is- something is running our minds. Nobody can pre plan every moment of thier life. Because there are outside forces and variables, some say. Then, please explain how a even a person in isolation can't predict the exact thoughts he'll be thinking in exactly 3 days, 1 hour and 14 seconds from now. And even if he's a smart ass and says I'll think the word "cat" at that exact time, he is now only focused on that time! There's the 3 days plus where his mind is more or less on automatic pilot and thinks what it wants (with some conscious(?) interruption, of course.) As I said earlier, we're aware of our subconscious and can now (somewhat) manipulate it. So now that people like me are aware of this force that runs the subconscious, it seems to have gone into hiding. It seems to be some sort of inifinite regress. We discover what that is, and then we try to discover what it is that runs that, and the next thing you know, you have wet finger touching a livewire hair.

With all the cutting edge brain studies out there there must a word for it, or a "concept", if you will. But maybe there isnt. However,- I feel that eventually, with your help, we can discover what "it" is. And I figure since Wikipedia is constructed with some of the most brilliant minds on Earth (educators, scientists, etc.) we may be able to discover it by the time this thread is archived. And if you're not from Earth, that's okay, you don't have to tell me that (dont wanna make trouble for anyone, Zoltar16-~***). Just let us in on what's really going on. It would be worth your while, because here we have something called a Nobel Prize, and it pays big bucks so you can enjoy the many comforts here. And if The Big Secret happens to be a mind machine planted in a crater on Mars, so be it. We can handle the truth.

So,-who will step forward and help me solve the greatest neurological mystery of all time? Dr. Carefree (talk) 01:58, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

While imaginative, your proposition is a bit far fetched, in my opinion. It automatically assumes that something drives the subconscious, while it's possible that it's autonomous. Has it been demonstrated definitively that something lies beneath the surface of the subconscious?CalamusFortis 02:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Sadly - the available science points in 180 degrees the opposite direction. From all we know and can measure and observe - it appears that everything we do and say is ENTIRELY driven by our subconscious and there is simply no such thing as 'free will'. Our conscious minds are merely observers of the results who justify the things that have already happened. There are some very elegant experiments that we will often take action several seconds before we consciously "decide" to do so - and our subconscious mind is 'editing' reality and skewing our conscious impression of time passing in order to 'cover up' these peculiarities. SteveBaker (talk) 05:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

There are examples extrapolated from "subconscious", two are Collective unconscious and Superconscious which redirects to the same article, though I had the impression it was a step beyond it yet again. Filters upon filters it seems. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

A wonderful read is Blink (book) by Malcolm Gladwell. In particular there is a section about a card-game experiment. The game is such that it becomes apparant to most people after about 50 hands that choosing one of the suit-colours is more likely to result in a 'win' than the other. What is interesting is that after a much smaller number of hands people's betting pattern has changed. That is to say that people have changed their behaviour to result in more wins but they are not 'consciously' aware of the change in tactic. The book is all about how decisions made in the 'blink' of an eye are sometimes better, and how to harness when that kind of 'thinking' works and also how it has limitations. Very interesting stuff. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't heard that one...I'll go and grab a copy of the book. Do you have details about the rules of this card game? SteveBaker (talk) 15:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

http://www.gladwell.com/blink/blink_excerpt1.html is the best I can find without buying the book/lending it from the library. I would highly recommend any of Malcolm Gladwell's work he's a very enjoyable read and his TedTalks are great - the one about ragu sauce is wonderful. ny156uk (talk) 23:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow! That's a cool link - thanks. SteveBaker (talk) 03:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

How much music can fit on a CD-R?

How much music is it possible to fit on a standard CD-R? That article says "The 120 mm disc has a storage capacity of 74 minutes of audio or 650 MiB of data. CD-R/RWs are also available with capacities of 79 minutes, 59 seconds and 74 frames (marketed as 80 minutes) / 736,966,656 bytes (702 MiB), which they achieve by molding the disc at the tightest allowable tolerances specified in the Orange Book CD-R/CD-RW standards." There is also this FAQ. Now, the CD-Rs that I normally buy have got "80 mins" written on them, and sure enough, when I try and burn some music to one using iTunes, I can't get more than 80 mins on it, regardless of the file format the songs are in. But, someone just gave me a CD-R with 80 songs on it and over 10 hours of playing time, although the total data is only about 600MB. (The file format is MP4, if that makes any difference.) It looks just like a standard CD-R to me. How has he done this? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Your friend has written the CD as an MP3 CD and you as an Audio CD. In iTunes you get to specify which way you want to burn CDs (preferences/options area). An audio-CD will work in 99.9% of CD players. An MP3-CD will only work in MP3-enabled CD players (more and more of them these days are mp3-cd enabled). The MP3-cd stores the files as MP3s (or preseves the format), the Audio-CD takes the MP3 format and when writing to disc writes it in a format that 99.9% of CD players can read (as in like normal CDs you'd buy in the shop). If he has found a way to burn 10hours of music onto an 80-minute CD that will work in 99.9% of players then he has developed/found a very very clever piece of kit. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

No, he's obviously made an MP3 CD like you say. Many thanks for that comprehensive response. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientist killed by ruling class

I remember vaguely a story about a scientist who claimed that the ground is round like a ball but the king at that time believed that the ground should be square covered by a hemisphere of the sky. As a result, the king killed the scientist. QUESTION: Is there any record of such incidence? Is so, please let me have some pointers to such story or related stories. I did a search with key words: scientist killed by king but nothing showed up. Thank you in advance. twma 11:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The sky would be in the shape of a cloister vault rather than a hemisphere if the earth is a square, maybe that's where the term the vault of the sky came from? Haven't heard of any such story. Dmcq (talk) 12:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Just a suggestion: perhaps you should try other words instead of "scientist." In a culture where the ruler believed in a square earth, "science" wouldn't be a widely used term. A mathematician, maybe? A philosopher? Possibly a heretic. --- OtherDave (talk) 13:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of anyone dying over the cause of round versus flat earth - but plenty of scientists have died for their beliefs. Giordano Bruno for example - claimed that the sun was the center of the universe and that the universe is infinite...and as a result was burned at the stake (bizarrely - with his tongue "clamped" so he could neither recant nor make a final statement of his beliefs!). Yes - we've all heard the story of Galileo...he was relatively lucky! SteveBaker (talk) 15:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

He may not have been a scientist, but in a similar vein, how about Socrates? Mac Davis (talk) 22:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, a "flat earth" has never been the prevailing view amongst educated Europeans. The modern myth that "Columbus proved the earth is round!" is all Washington Irving's fault. A "square earth" covered by a domed sky sounds like it may be early Chinese astronomy. FiggyBee (talk) 03:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't know the reference but saw a comment that there were people who knew better, but it wasn't the official view. Similarly a vacuum was controversial (horror vacui) in those times[1]. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As shown by the heading, SHORT stories of scientists killed or suppressed by ruling classes are what I am interested to know. They do not have to be about astronomy or mathematics. Thanks for the names of Galileo Galilei and Giordano Bruno. twma 08:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

See Lysenkoism. The Soviet Union adopted a crackpot scientific idea as official dogma and scientists who disagreed were suppressed and sometimes executed. --Anonymous, 10:48 UTC, November 13, 2008.

Unfortunately it also happens in the democratic free world. This is why I asked. Thanks again. twma 12:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Um Galileo and Giordano Bruno hardly lvied in a democractic free world. Indeed any country with a ruling class is unlikely to be democractic and probably not going to be free Nil Einne (talk) 12:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Where to buy onycha

Where could i buy the onycha perfume? Not the essential oils? or the perfume with onycha ingridients or perfume from the onycha(and other) essential oil blending

Hi, I see this same question at yahoo answers and blurtit. Have you tried googling "Onycha perfume"? A lot comes up. It's confusing too, because some say it's the sstuff from the Onycha mollusc's operculum; others that it's labdanum and still others, that it's something to do with benzoin resin. Happy searching, Julia Rossi (talk) 10:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Missouri Election Results - again.

Taking on board earlier comments about the lateness of the result, I can't help noticing the gap between the 2 leading contenders is about 5000 votes or 3% of the lowest of them. Forgiving my ignorance about the eligibility of those (provisional) votes still being counted (I am in the UK where such issues don't arise IAIAA), isn't it about time this result was declared given the significant margin already counted? Or - could it be that the Returning Officer (UK expression) knows the result but doesn't like it and so doesn't want to publish it? Only asking. 92.21.183.83 (talk) 14:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

So long as their are votes being counted the elections officers cannot certify a final number of votes which is what their job requires them to report. "Declaring" the result is something that news agencies do based on their own formula and inclinations. And the whole 2000 election process showed some limits to that process. There are good reasons to expect that Obama may have won a large majority of these provisional votes due to the campaign's attracting occasional voters who may have more registration issues than regular voters and the Democratic Party's large voter registration efforts, some of which had issues (ACORN). (Also 5000 does not seem to be 3% of 1.4 million) Rmhermen (talk) 14:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

My apologies - you're quite right - it seems my third-world calculator's floating decimal floated too far to the Right - unlike John McCain's popular vote. Thanks for the answer though. But what exactly IS a provisional vote? In the UK you are either ON the Electoral Register before Election Day - or you're NOT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.183.83 (talk) 15:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Provisional vote, provisional voter, provisional voting - found it: Provisional ballot. Not that it is a great article. Basically provisional ballots are given to voters with issues like no matching name on the election roll, incorrect identification, etc. In my state, you have to swear an oath in front of the poll worker that you are who you claim to be and that you are registered in that precinct to get a provisional ballot. These then must be checked to ensure you weren't lying or voting multiple times, etc. Rmhermen (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Provisional ballots are a way to mitigate vote suppression efforts on election day, where one party has their people at the polling places to try and reduce the number of voters likely to favor the opposition by a variety of challenges. If someone does not cast a ballot on election day, there is not provision for their doing so later. This way the vote is cast, and the decision whether to include it in the total can be made later if it makes a difference in the outcome (as in Florida 2000). Evidence can be presented later to prove the person is entitled to vote, when someone challenges their right to vote. Edison (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

where one party has their people at the polling places to try and reduce the number of voters likely to favor the opposition by a variety of challenges. Sorry Edison, am I to understand from what you have written that party workers are allowed to stand at the polling stations and deter potential voters from doing so? Sounds like Zimbabwe to me. 92.21.183.83 (talk) 19:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Allowed? No -- though there's a natural limit to the law that can be exploited. If there's a 100-foot no-politicizing zone, for instance, you can set up camp 105 feet away and heckle. That's a natural consequence of the First Amendment. Does stuff happen? Sure it can, and no democracy is immune to such chicanery. — Lomn 19:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I just read the article suggested by Rmhermen - thanks. Clear as mud if you ask me. I am in the UK and I get a ticket from the Electoral Registration Office to PROVE I have a vote. Strange thing is - when I turn up at the polls without my voter's card, I still get to vote simply by saying who I am and where I live. Strange. 92.21.183.83 (talk) 19:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Vote suppression efforts may be done by official election judges or accredited poll watchers, who challenge the voter's right to vote. The grounds might be that their reported address has changed (but still in the voting district) or that they have the same name as a convicted felon who is in reality a different person. Or that their identification card has a different address or different spelling of the name ("Wurzelbacher" versus "Worzelbacher"). One party reportedly planned to challenge, at the polling place, the right to vote of those whose homes had been foreclosed [2]. The goal is to strike a balance between preventing stuffing the ballot box with votes from phony voters, versus preserving qualified citizens' right to vote. Edison (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

In the UK, either your name is on the list or it isn't. Taking the polling card you receive through the post (after sending back the electoral register registration form you receive through the post some time before) can speed things up, but it isn't required. Oddly, you don't generally need ID, although where I live the polling station only serves a very small area and the people running it know everyone anyway, so that may be why. --Tango (talk) 22:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

We also receive voter's registration cards - but it is mainly to tell us where are precinct votes at and which districts we are in. I have never needed it to vote - in my state I now need a photo ID (a driver's license or legal equivalent) but that is a recent development. Rmhermen (talk) 00:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of a provisional baptism whereby an adult gets baptised on the basis that he/she has not previously been baptised, but it is conditional to the extent that if he/she has, then this attempt is null and void. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Coins in toilet bowls

Does anyone know why in some homes in the UK (and possibly abroad) the dwellers drop a small coin (usually copper) into the toilet bowl and leave it there until it is eventually flushed away only to replace it with another? Is this perhaps serving the same function as throwing money into other water constructs and making a wish, some strange feng shui belief or someone just spending a penny? Nanonic (talk) 16:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm in the UK and have never heard of anyone doing that. It sounds like a strange superstition to me. --Tango (talk) 16:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Ditto - never come across it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep - it's a new one to me too (and I'm also a Brit). Maybe someone in the household just as a problem with coins falling out of their pockets? Once one is in there, it might take a long time to flush away because the water can't easily get under it and it's pretty dense. Perhaps that gives the impression that the coin is continually replaced - when in fact it's just the same unflushable coin. The expression "to spend a penny" relates to the old coin operated public toilets that took a pre-decimalisation 'penny' - more recently, they went up to 10p. Hence the frequently found graffiti: "Here I sit, all broken hearted - I spent 10p and only fa..." ...OK, nevermind. SteveBaker (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Line two is "But that's not the worst of it/I thought it a fart, but instead I shit..." --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

10p? You visit cheap public conveniences - the toilets at London Waterloo station have been at least 20p for several years. --Tango (talk) 22:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

20p? It's a while since you've been. Network Rail charges 30p at Euston, Birmingham New St, and Manchester Piccadilly these days! -- Arwel Parry _(talk) 00:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

people in england charge you to go to the bathroom? weird —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.101.182.76 (talk) 02:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The charge is mostly to keep the homeless from inhabiting the toilets. 86.4.187.55 (talk) 18:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

A handful do, but it really isn't the norm. The only ones I've personally encountered are at Waterloo Station. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 08:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Here I thought I was a tyrant for putting a 10-cent charge on my bathrooms when playing Roller Coaster Tycoon. I didn't know there were actually public bathrooms that charge money! Is that just a UK thing, or do other countries do it too? Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 07:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Pay toilet. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 07:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I discovered one in Western Australia, there was an attendant and small towels available, so maybe it was towards costs of upkeep. It was a railway station public "restroom" by the way. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Many of the public toilets in India and Sri Lanka have attendants, who hand you a towel to wipe your hands, and then put their hand out for a tip, and scowl fiercely if you decline or if you want to but have no change, so they may as well be pay toilets. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Many toilets in Austrian cafés and restaurants have an old crone hanging around them to keep them clean, with a table by the door on which is placed a plate for tips. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

One of the malls in Yellowknife has free toilets but you need to get a key from one of the stores. The other has a pay toilet which was a quarter, profits go to a charity. The free ones at the Yellowknife Tim Hortons and the hospital don't have a changing table in the mens. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a gingerbread house Richardrj. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Would it surprise anyone that we have an article on the pay toilet? I'm old enough to remember these in the U.S., usually at bus stations. I also encountered these in Germany in the mid-1980s (usually with some little old lady mopping the floor in the background) as well as pay showers at campgrounds. I really am glad to see that Paris has stalls: the last time I was there, there must have not been any public toilets, given the number of guys peeing in the alleys. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, it wouldn't surprise us, since jpgordon kindly provided it above. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Harrods was about £3 the last time I splashed out. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Only time I've ever seen 'em was in Bali. I found it really weird. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 00:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Most Bus and Train stations have Pay Toilets in Serbia. These usually have an attendant (called "Baba sera" which translates to something like "granny shit" or "shitty granny"), you have to pay before entering the toilets and can take several sheets of toilet paper from the attendant if you need it. Also, in some places the toilets are often poorly maintained and dirty. And male toilets are almost always equipped only with urinals and squat toilets. — Shinhan < talk > 21:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This is Original Musing on my part, but is it possible that pay toilets - even if the pay is relatively negligable - get dirty slower than non-pay toilets? People seem to value and take more care of things they had to pay for than things they got for free. FiggyBee (talk) 03:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whether your reasons are correct but many pay toilets in Malaysia are definitely better then the public toilets, which isn't saying much. Actually I wonder if people may be less contentious because hey I paid for it...... I think it's a combination of better upkeep due cost recovery and reducing usage. Actually things are similar here as with Serbia although our pay toilets are common in shopping malls and the like too (although I think they're dying out perhaps since many of the newer shopping malls have abandoned the practice and for the smaller ones it's not cost effective). Amongst other things, manual pay toilets probably depend a lot on wages in a country. For example here in NZ with the minimum wage at $12 it's not going to be particularly effective to hire someone to collect say 20 cents per customer unless you get at least 68 customers (accounting for the fact that 20 cents will include a 12.5% GST component) per hour. Obviously public acceptance plays a part too Nil Einne (talk) 11:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Amelie's soundtrack

How difficult is it to learn how to play Amelie's soundtrack on the piano?--Mr.K. (talk) 18:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone I knew with nil piano experience learned to play the score from The Piano (film) to impress a boy. It took her three months. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That's awesome. I hope it went well and they're happily together. Romance isn't dead, it seems. Belisarius (talk) 17:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It was complicated, but you're right, heartfelt romance is not dead. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Main page featured articles

I asked this at Wikipedia talk:Featured articles, but I don't know how often that page is checked, which is why I'm posting this here as well. If you know of a better place where this can be posted, then please respond below.

The following question may seem rather trivial, but I wanted to inquire about it anyway. I'm wondering in what manner the intro of a main page featured article is constructed on the actual Wikipedia main page. I'm only asking because I noticed that the introductory content on the main page portion of a featured article doesn't always match the introductory content on the actual featured article itself. For example, in today's (November 12, 2008) main page featured article, Joe Sakic, the main Wikipedia page mentions that Sakic has Croatian origin; yet, in the actual article itself, there's no mention of it in the intro. Directly before the article was displayed on the main page (as in the day before the article got on the main page), there was no mention of his Croatian origin either. It may have been mentioned in the intro of the article a while back, which is why I'm wondering just how the introductory content on main page featured articles is constructed. From what point in the article's edit history is the introductory content taken? -- Luke4545 (talk) 21:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

It is based on some recent version the article's intro, but edited for length and main page style requirements. This is virtually always done by User:Raul654, so you might consider asking him. APL (talk) 22:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I actually found out about User:Raul654 shortly after I posted this, and he basically answered my question. Thanks anyway. -- Luke4545 (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The principal author of the article actually writes the first draft of it (at least, I did for my two FA's) - that's a part of the nomination procedure. But the final editing comes down to Raul. It's worth bearing in mind that the extra notoriety that a new FA gets shortly after passing the FA process - and again as it's about to appear on the front page - means that there is a flurry of last-minute editing that may well change the intro of the actual article between Raul snagging it and the page actually appearing on the front page. One of the ironies of the WP:FA process is that the most attention and improvement an article ever gets happens AFTER the FA process has already said what a great article it is! It would really be much more productive if people would look at the articles that aren't quite of FA quality yet - rather than focussing on articles that are pretty much perfect already. SteveBaker (talk) 23:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

November 13

Can you help me find the original projections of social networking sites such as Facebook and Myspace

--Bustenai (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)I am seeking the original projections of social networking sites - Facebook and Myspace are quintessential examples. The original business plans would show usage projections (how many eyeballs per month for the first year)and how they expected to monetize that audience. I am crafting my business plan for a unique site and need respectable numbers for the business community.Is is possible to locate the first or early businessplans of the companies mentioned or perhaps others? My one day owning my own island is in your hands.Bustenai (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In many cases, they didn't start out with the intent of being businesses. Facebook was originally a guy who wanted to organize his college year-book photos online - then the software was used by more colleges, high schools - and eventually, it got to be such a drain on his servers that he had to sell advertising to pay for it. THEN it was a business. This is not uncommon. I remember the first day the Google engine came online - there was ZERO advertising - it was a free service provided by people researching into search engines - only later did they "incidentally" decide to make money out of it. Ditto Craigslist...ditto loads of others. It's mostly geeks doing things for fun and for free that are slowly forced into becoming businesses. I doubt that any of those 'big name' services ever had a business plan until they were already making money. It's interesting to note that Wikipedia started the same way - but never did go the route of switching over to a business model. SteveBaker (talk) 14:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

And even if those sites did produce business plans, they're not going to make them publicly available. Such figures are invariably commercially sensitive. Also, you shouldn't be looking at those figures anyway. If you're serious about producing a robust business plan, you should be able to make your own projections without referring to any that have gone before. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The first such site up was CampusNetwork at Columbia College of Columbia University. Might check that article or contact the founders of the now-defunct social networking site. Edison (talk) 20:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if you could find such numbers, they may not be very useful. The reason such sites work is because they are somehow different from everything that has gone before. For your site to work, it also needs to be different, which means it may not be comparable to the existing sites. --Tango (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Chinese FDA

Is there a Chinese equivalent to the Food And Drugs Administration? Is there any Chinese group that performs a similar role? My focus is on the food aspect. 63.229.215.199 (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

They have a quality watchdog, if that helps. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably the General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

And judging by the recent scandals, almost as effective as the FDA. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

But the consequences have been much more dire. [[3]] The administrator was executed last year. NByz (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

importing

This might seem like a dumb question, but why do we get products imported from China and other countries rather then manufacturing them in our own countries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagamber (talk • contribs) 07:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Sometimes it's cheaper to import it than to make it here. After all, imported products need to be transported only once. If you made something yourself you probably need to important the stuff it's made off and then pay for all the man hours to get it produced. - 131.211.151.245 (talk) 07:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The biggest reason is the cost of labour. People in China generally have significantly lower wages than people in western Europe or the US. Think of it like this: say you want to make like, 50000 pencils. You could either pay a king's ransom to have it done where you live, or you can just hire a bunch of people in China, pay them a lot less, and ship them over really cheaply (the cost of transportation is much lower than the increase in cost to pay higher salaries). Belisarius (talk) 08:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Check out List of minimum wages by country - many factory workers are earning exactly that. It doesn't have a figure for China - but I found elsewhere that the average Chinese factory worker pulls in $2,520 per year. In the USA, the minimum you can pay anyone in the USA works out to $12,168 per year. So if the cost of shipping the product of one person's labor for a year is less than around $10,000 - it's cheaper to get the work done in China. [4] says that you can ship two 40' containers from China to the USA for $10,000.

So let's take a concrete example - the one everyone always talks about - sneakers. How many pairs of Nike's can you fit into two 40' shipping containers? A pair of shoes is maybe a 9" by 4" inches by 4" inches - and a 40' shipping container is 40'x8'x8' - so you can ship 2x40x8x8x12 = 62,000 pairs of shoes from China for $10,000 - the savings you make in wages from one worker over a year. The cost of shipping a pair of shoes from China to the USA is therefore around 16 cents...not really very much. I read some amazingly turgid papers on the net and the best I could estimate was that a typical US shoe worker turned out 107 shoes per hour in 1986. So around 50 pairs an hour. If they are working 1600 hours a year (I believe that's the average with sick days, vacations and holidays) - then each worker makes 80,000 pairs a year for $12,000 in the USA or $2,500 in China - that's 15 cents a pair in the US and 2.6 cents a pair in China. But the shoes cost 16 cents to ship - so it looks like you save 3.6 cents a shoe by doing the work in the USA. But that's not all - there are other factors at work here. Overseas, land is cheaper, taxes are lower, employer healthcare payments are not required, workers have to put in longer hours and the environmental laws are not so strict - overheads for managment, HR, etc are also lower. All of those factors shave more pennies off the cost of shoes.

This also assumes you could pursuade people to work in a shoe factory for minimum wage in the USA - I think that's a tough sell. www.payscale.com says that an average production line factory worker earns $15 per hour - which is 30 cents per pair of shoes - not 15 cents as a minimum wage worker would cost.

Some people will argue that people would "buy American" if shoes were (say) 50 cents or even a dollar more expensive than the Chinese-made version - but that's simply not the way people behave. They go to WalMart - which relentlessly pushes down on price - and doesn't show you anywhere in the shoe aisles where each shoe was manufactured. Hence, if there are two almost identical pairs of sneaker, people will go for the cheapest one - and WalMart won't waste shelf space stocking the "all American" one. So that's not going to work.

The solution for the US is to keep production in high-tech areas where labor costs are a tiny fraction of the cost of the product and the benefits of keeping the technology local outweigh the tiny price difference. But every high-tech product gradually gets understood well enough to be made overseas - so in order to maintain high wages, US workers have to push the technology envelope all the time. That means better education - more mid-life retraining - companies who spend BIG money in R&D. People should not expect to earn $15 per hour when their education is no better than someone in China who makes only $1 per hour. The US can't make money making shoes...or even computers or cars...the work needs to be in biotechnology, nanotechnology, advanced design services that the 2nd and 3rd world countries will pay money to use. Then, in 20 years - it'll have to be in orbital power stations or delivering helium from the moon - and in 20 years after that...I don't know - but it had better be something else because India will be able to do those things at a tenth the price the US can!

Sadly, the state of education here is utterly lamentable...and it's getting worse. Let's teach creationism instead of evolution...yeah - that's REALLY going to make a biotechnology industry that's a world-beater. Let's have all of the workers pray for god to make them a new bacterium that can convert grass into ethanol for us...that'll work.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

See especially comparative advantage. - Jmabel | Talk 17:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The cool thing about Comparative advantage, is that even if a country is absolutely more efficient at producing ALL goods, they still maximize their utility (fancy word for happiness or usefulness) by producing more of the item that they are relatively most efficient at producing and trading for the other(s).NByz (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The only quibble I have with Steve's wonderful explanation is that I think 9" x 4" x 4" is a better size for a shoe rather than a pair of shoes. I suppose it would also depend on whether the shoes are boxed overseas or shipped in bulk (I believe it's the latter). Matt Deres (talk) 21:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I have heard it said (although there is some debate about the truth of the statement) that the major sneaker companies ship left shoes and right shoes in separate containers so that organized crime cannot benefit by hijacking container trucks. That being the case - pairs of shoes can't be shipped in their boxes - so they must be being re-united and boxed somewhere more locally. But I'm not going to argue about the size of a pair of sneakers...the point remains that a $10,000 per year difference in worker salary (or more like $22,000 difference per average employee) pays for an awful lot of shipping. If you're a factory worker and the amount of 'stuff' you personally produce in a year would fit into four 40' shipping containers - then you'd better start worrying. Add in the other savings with overseas manufacturing and it's truly no contest. If Americans want to make their living making things like shoes - they need to get the minimum wage laws repealed and downsize their living standards accordingly - that's not going to happen - so plan on those businesses dying. SteveBaker (talk) 03:19, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Not all shoe manufacturing is in the country that can provide it cheapest/best value, there are some specialist shoe manufacturers in the US. Additionally moving your work 'off-shore' to the cheapest production countries is not without risk. Many companies that consider that risk too high (regardless of the cheaper labour costs, lower regulatory requirements). There are also infrastructure costs which can often put-off companies moving off-shore. Having a handful of custom-built mulit-million dollar machines in the US and trying sourcing/building replacements in another country requires a notable strategic input - in investing in off-shore they need to be confident that the medium-to-long term benefits of offshoring outweigh the short-term investment costs. Of course plenty of companies don't have this 'specialisation' issue and can simply contract-out there work, which makes moving work around much easier. In essence whilst the lure of lower production costs is a big one, there are also many reasons why companies retain production 'on-shore'. Without delving deeping into these moving manufacturing must consider: Strategic reduction in staff, Impact on PR in local (and potentially wider) community because of moving production, training of staff, stability of production/off-shore economy, financial implications of offshore (budget, auditing, reporting etc.), moving of control to less 'instantly' accessible area, quality of staff available, historic corporate philosophy, security of production/trade-secrets off-shore etc. etc. Often it will be worth it, but it isn't a case of just saying "It costs $1 per unit to make it in the US and 10 cents in China, move it" there's more to it. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Austrians and Marxists

Were the economists of the Austrian school really the first to critically engage significantly with Marxist economics? [no wiki articles needed, thx] the skomorokh 09:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you don't want Wikipedia articles,then I don't see how we can help you,unless you're expecting us to answer what sounds like a homework question for you,in which case we would all want a share of our grade.We can certainly point you in the direction of articles that will help you,but we don't do your homework for you. Also if you want to sign your name just type four tildes-these things ~ and it will do it for you. Lemon martini (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Lemon martini—Skomorokh is a serious user who has made a number of edits to Austrian school. And he signed his question. I think he's saying that he already knows what the Wikipedia articles in question say and is looking for some input from the desk. Darkspots (talk) 12:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep, Darkspots has it exactly right. The question refers to an unsourced claim in the article that sounds like it could be true but that I have been unable to verify myself. I should have made that clearer. Thank you both for your interest in helping. Regards, the skomorokh 17:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This won't be much help but: could be. As far as I know, earlier classical economists mostly didn't take Marx seriously enough to bother engaging. - Jmabel | Talk 17:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you read German I suggest this [5] reference, a treatise of Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk who was a major figure of the Vienna School. Chapter 4 would seem to be relevant. An English version is linked to at the bottom (1st of the external links) of the WP article on him. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:13, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Aye, I'm familiar with the piece, but I can't exactly cite a prominent first wave Austrian's engagement with Marxism as an RS for the claim that the Austrians were the first in the door. Thanks for the link, I appreciate it. the skomorokh 18:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That is of interest and lends credibility to the claim, thanks Joe. the skomorokh 18:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Belgium/paedophiles

Does Belgium actually have more child abuse/paedophiles than other European countries? If not, how did this myth develop? If it does, have there been any postulated explanations for it? It's a bit of a weird question, but thanks in advance for any answers. 86.7.238.145 (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

These kinds of question are tricky. If you find a statistic about the number of convicted Belgian paedophiles and it seems like a big number - that might be just that they are better at catching and prosecuting them than other comparable societies. If you find a statistic that says that more of these crimes are reported than elsewhere - then that may simply mean that Belgian society is uniquely open about that kind of thing with little of the shame that so often prevents the victims from coming forwards to report problems. Doubtless we could come up with some statistics - but in such a sensitive matter, I doubt we could infer much about actual abuse in Belgium as a result. However, that's not to say that we couldn't come up with some numbers for you - I'm sure someone here will be able to do that. SteveBaker (talk) 12:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, the stereotype is very recent, having it's roots in the Marc Dutroux case. During the trial, there was a conspiracy theory that suspects had been protected by a shadowy group of top government officials. A "paedocracy" if you will. I don't recall hearing anything about Belgians and paedophilia before that. Fribbler (talk) 12:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. Across any large group of people, there is likely to be the same percentage of people with any random trait, positive or negative, as there are in any other random group of people. As noted, there may be aspects of Belgian society that cause more pedophiles to get caught and prosecuted, but it doesn't mean that there are more in that society. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That's a dubious assumption. If we are to assume that (Belgian) society can be the reason for more people being caught/more reporting, what is to stop there being societies where X is more prevelent? Nature is impacted by 'nurture', and characterstics such as culture and society will impact the likelihood of X or Y occuring. I can't see why paedophillia would be exempt from cultural impacts (I'm not suggesting this is the case for Belgium). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 16:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In the original question, child abusers and paedophiles are mixed, but these categories are not synonymous. Not all child abusers are paedophiles, and not all paedophiles are child abusers. I would guess that just like Jayron32 said, that there is likely to be the same percentage of people who are paedophiles. However, the amount of people who abuse children is greatly different between societies, due to factors such as how well the society protects its children, what the society defines as "child abuse" etc. So it is not all impossible that there are certain factors in Belgian society that lead to an increase of sexual child abuse. Lova Falk (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. If peadophilia or child abuse are driven by cultural factors as well (I believe they are) then we shouldn't expect their likelihood to be the same in different cultures. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't a paedocracy be a country run by children? Sounds like a far more effective method of rule than a country run by paedophiles! --Tango (talk) 20:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Some people might say some countries are run by... *sigh*. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:19, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

girls

how can i get girls to undo their skool blouses so i can see there bras and boobs? wen i try it, they ether hit me or if theyre my frends just giggle and run off? i even tried doing it like truth or dare but they wouldnt do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.111.185.226 (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe our article on sexual harassment has a how-to section, but you might find the other info useful. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It can't be any worse than our uni anti-harassment video which was set in a cheesy 80s office and consisted mainly of some guy stuffing a shuttlecock down his pants.It was so bad it was laughable.Maybe having the faculty in hysterics and deciding the video was brilliant wasn't the message they wanted to convey... Lemon martini (talk) 12:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh egads!We really do need some sort of trapdoor on the way in here which removes the lesser species,but nevertheless...I'm assuming from your spelling abilities you're still at school.If you're really good friends with some of the girls,you may find if you sit down and talk to them when they're in a good mood,they may very well consider your request.When they are asking what you want for Christmas or birthday presents,you could drop some hints that a few undone buttons would be well appreciated.If all that fails,try becoming a naturist.You will find quite a few females who have no objections to you seeing their body unclothed.If you get arrested,Wikipedia will not post bail for you... Lemon martini (talk) 12:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This is evolution in action. Nature: red in tooth and claw. The terminally lame demand that girls undo their blouses. As a direct consequence they totally fail to 'get off' with them. Zero chance of sex ensures that their genes do not survive into the succeeding generation. Problem solved. Trust Darwin, he knew his stuff. SteveBaker (talk) 12:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that this sort of approach actually gets results some of the time when attempted by beautiful, charismatic guys—in no way disproving Darwin. The rest of us have to behave less like assholes if we want the chance to reproduce. Darkspots (talk) 12:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I've heard anecdotal evidence of the approach working via sympathy as well - remember, looking at a girl's breasts is very unlikely to impregnate her! --Tango (talk) 20:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I know its going to come as a shock to the OP, but girls are human beings too! They are complex and have desires and aspirations and life goals no less complex than guys. You could try establishing a real relationship with them! You know, like care about them in ways that don't involve sex right away! Well, plus there's the issue that breasts aren't "where its at" for the discerning connoisoir. Sure, they are wonderful accessories, but the real action happens elsewhere. But then, if you actually cared about the pleasure of your partner, you would learn how to please her. But then again, that would require you to get to know girls, and care about them in more ways than just as sexual objects. Which returns us to the original point. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

You're a real downer, you know :) You're right, but a real downer... Belisarius (talk) 17:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's try a more helpful response: Being interested in seeing what breasts look like is a natural part of puberty, however most of the girls you associate with will probably be rather shy about showing you them because it goes against cultural norms (there are cultures where nudity is perfectly normal, ours just isn't one of them). The easiest breasts for you to see would probably be those of glamour models, try buying a newspaper or magazine which includes glamour photographs (in the UK, The Sun's page 3 is a well known example and you could even claim you were buying for the articles!). If buying such material at your age is illegal where you live, then, of course, I do not recommend or condone violating the law. --Tango (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course, glamour mags may only be helpful if you enjoy ogling bags of salt water. FiggyBee (talk) 03:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of glamour mags are natural only, as is Page 3. --Tango (talk) 10:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I reccommend the badcop-goodcop routine: insult her, then complement her. Works every time*. Example - "That lipstick makes you look like you should wear a red nose and juggle for a living. But look on the bright side: your [boobies or other body part] make you look great, even though you look like you put a baby in a blender and wiped it on your lips." * = results may vary flaminglawyer^cneverforget 03:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Your post reads like something from Beavis and Butthead – highly unsuccessful girl-impressors. I guess you'll find a solution (in your library, books on drawing have naked models in them) or in your dreams, but most real girls have boundaries (no-go zones) as to the limits of socially acceptable behaviour. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Strip poker was popular when I was in school. As, at an earlier age, were lingerie catalogues. This video also contains useful information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maltelauridsbrigge (talk • contribs) 12:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Tea Tree Oil

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. --Darkspots (talk) 13:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Such as your pharmacist. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Casual Lofa

Does anyone know where i can find information on the Casual Lofa and other similar contraptions? It is famous as being previously the world's fastest sofa. Simply south (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"World's fastest sofa"??? Like, in the couch races on the Bonneville wall-to-wall carpet flats?

(We used to have adult soap box derby races in Seattle, until they got stopped for insurance reasons. One person did put an entire couch on his racer). - Jmabel | Talk 18:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Google returned over 6000 results, that should be a good start. --LarryMac | Talk 18:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Google seemed to work for me. The sofa in question is pretty damn cool. ~ mazca ^t|c 18:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Found it was by Edd China and also found www.cummfybanana.com which unfortunately at the mo currently undergoing refurbishment. (Wow, bathtub and office). Thank you. Simply south (talk) 18:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This UK paper [6] has a lengthy article on the 220 HP Rover V8 mobile sofa. Googling is a bit tricky, as you get results on Amish handcrafted organic furniture. I suspect that these are not motorised but have 220 donkeys built into the upholstery :o) --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Are Assumptions important

i am really annoyed time and again to hear from my managers, please stop assuming as our work largely depends ont he customer behaviour, so i sincerely thing assumptions plays a major role and however, we cannot rule out the importance of assumption , can any one help me explain the importance of assumption to my managers.Vikram79 (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In economics, assumptions are important to theories because they let you simplify the world. In this way, ideas formed with assumptions usually only reflect one aspect of the situation being studied. To get a full view, you'd need many theories with many assumptions.

For example: A good theory might be that output per worker is a function of worker effort. An assumption of this theory might be that customer behaviour is an independent variable. Using this theory to predict output might work really well.

Another theory is that output per worker is a function of the rate of growth of the industry (more demand = more output). An assumption here, is that worker effort is independent (they won't harder in the "good" or "bad" states of the world). This theory may predict output even better than the first one. Or it may not. Both are valid theories. NByz (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks NByz at leat i have some perspective to go ahead with Vikram79 (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What your managers may be trying to do is get you to question your assumptions. Are you assuming your customers are a certain kind of people? Maybe they are not. Are you assuming that sales will grow? Maybe they won't. Are you sure that the things you are assuming are correct? Can you show that they are? While some assumptions are usually necessary, it may be that you are assuming more than your managers want. Contrary to what some popular comics would have you believe, managers are often smart people. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Christians think assumptions are VERY important - after all - we are told that Jesus Christ's mother Mary was assumed into heaven.92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

is OCD curable

I have friend who has serious obsessive cleanliness disorder, he even wash his hand if you give him a pen or shake hand with him. any ways i can help him rid this? or is this OCD at all.?Vikram79 (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The best we can do is refer you to obsessive compulsive disorder, however we cannot give medical advice here. If you are concerned for your friend, encourage him to see a physician who specializes in treating patients like him. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The easiest way to find a specialist would probably be to go and see his General Practitioner (or whatever the equivalent is where you live) and get referred. (At least, that's how you would do it in the UK.) --Tango (talk) 20:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Another issue would be: who is looking for a cure here? Does your friend suffer because of his compulsion? Does it keep him from doing things he would like to do? or Is it you who feels uncomfortable because he's not "normal", doesn't suit your standards? In the latter case I'd take a long hard look in the mirror asking what is so threatening or disturbing about s.o. who's different? Remember that humans would never have made it out of the cave were it not for the occasional odd one out. Who knows, in a huge epidemic your friend might just be the last one standing ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.245.5 (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC) oops76.97.245.5 (talk) (one day I'm going to kill this bot=:(

Who will fill vacated seats?

Who will fill Obama and Biden's vacated Senate seats? Bikingshaun (talk) 19:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The governors of their states will appoint replacements. The names have not yet been announced. Edison (talk) 20:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What if the sitting governor was not of the same political party? Is there a requirment to fill the position with someone of the same political affiliation? Bikingshaun (talk) 20:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it depends on the state, some have laws requiring the replacement to be from the same party. I think the others at least have conventions to do so. --Tango (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no national rule to handle such a situation. This topic has been covered extensively in the archives over the past few weeks, but to summarize, each state is left to its own devises as to how it will fill the vacant seats. In some states, the governor appoints a replacement, in others they are elected by the state legislature, and in still others a by election is held. In states where the replacement is appointed, some require it to be from the same party, and some do not. In some cases, the sppointed replacement is only approved to serve until the next statewide election day, and in others they serve until the end of the prior senator's term. If you can come up with a scenario, there is likely a state that does that to replace its senators or representatives. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Just by the by, as it were, we don't have "by elections". We have "special elections". --Trovatore (talk) 22:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

To-may-toe, to-mah-toe/po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:04, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It just sounds really odd, when you're discussing an American election. Next you'll be telling me that, as you drove to the by-election, you stopped in at the petrol station, put air in your tyres, and re-read the campaign materials you were keeping in the boot. --Trovatore (talk) 06:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Special election. Click it. Really. Oh look, it redirects... Damn... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep. And petrol redirects to gasoline. I really think "by-election" is unidiomatic in American English, unless discussing elections held abroad. --Trovatore (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe so, but the article is not just about what happens in America. "Special election" could mean a number of things; but in this context it falls under what is known internationally as a by-election. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't complaining about the article -- this is a standard WP:ENGVAR thing. When a topic does not have strong national ties, you use the variety of English in which it was first written. (I do have some reservations about your use of the phrase known internationally -- some Commonwealth speakers are under the impression that Commonwealth English is "international" English, and this is not accurate.)

My point to Jayron was that he was describing an American election, and the term sounds strange in that context, especially since Jayron himself is apparently an American. If it were a Commonwealth speaker talking I would be more tolerant. --Trovatore (talk) 08:31, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Tolerance is a wonderful quality, Trovatore. There's always room for more tolerance. (Except for certain things up with which I will not put). :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is a discussion of the issue: [7]. In Illinois, the governor may appoint an interim replacement, but must also hold a by election within 180 days if there is not already a regularly schediled election within that time. The date of the election must be announced within 5 days of the vacancy occuring, which means that Governor Blagojevich must announce an election date to fill the position by January 25, 2009. In Delaware, the Governor is given complete control to appoint a full-time replacement, though its an uncertain situation since Delaware will swear in a new governor the same day that the U.S. swears in a new President and Vice President, it is uncertain how the replacement will be appointed. If Biden resigns before being sworn in (which he may do) then the responsibility will fall to the current governor. If Biden resigns the day he becomes Veep, then the responsibility will fall to the governor-elect... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If anybody watches DirecTV........

Could someone please explain the sudden change in the XM channel lineup? All of a sudden Ethel is now Alternative Nation, Lucy is Lithium, Hip-Hop nation replaces the City, Octane replaces Squizz, Chrome has been removed from the lineup among other channels being removed........Does that mean that the stations change content? And why did they remove some channels? --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

See Xm_sirius_merger. As of November 12, 2008 Sirius and XM radio stations merged content. The new stations you are seeing are the Sirius stations that fit the same genre. Bikingshaun (talk) 21:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As was said, Sirius and XM merged their music channels. Here is XM's press release, and here is the new channel lineup.--Zerozal (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Hyla

When I visited the combined Fashion+Beauty & Health+Wellbeing fair at the Helsinki Fair Centre, after I had finished my main purpose for attending the whole fair in the first place, taking pictures of the models in the Finnish body painting championship at the Fashion+Beauty part, I wandered about the fair and found an interesting display at the Health+Wellbeing part. It was a new air filtering and room cleaning system called Hyla. The presenters offered me a home demonstration, so I signed up for one. The home demonstration was at my apartment this Tuesday, and I must say the salesperson won me over with her demonstration. But when she showed me the price, my feeling changed completely. I am very wary of paying over 1600 € for an air filtering and room cleaning system, no matter how brilliant it is. So I have to ask here, has anyone else had any experience with this Hyla system? Does it work as well as advertised? Is it worth paying so much for it? JIP | Talk 21:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I know nothing of Hyla, but I think you may have found yourself in kirbyland. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Hyla does not use vacuum bags, it uses water. The water binds the vacuumed dust more efficiently and avoids the system getting clogged up by dust, and in addition, helps to moisten the air, which is good for people with allergies. The salesperson demonstrated this very well, and she also (very cleverly, I think) had me fill up and empty the water myself instead of doing it herself. This makes me convinced this Hyla system actually works, but not convinced it works well enough to justify the price. It's all a very nice system that actually works, but is it really any better than a plain old vacuum cleaner? JIP | Talk 21:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I expect a HEPA vacuum cleaner is better than the Hyla system, and I'd be concerned about two things with the Hyla: 1) How fast does it dry out after use? Water + dirt + time = mildew. 2) How does it handle larger particles (food crumbs, dead ants, small toys)? --Carnildo (talk) 00:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Haven't tried one either. Sounds expensive. At that price I'd look into other options like a central vacuum system or a vacuum robot that empties itself. In both cases you would minimize your exposure to dust. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 01:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Water, eh? You may have found yourself in RainbowLand. That article is a stub, but from what I know, those are very expensive vacuums. I did notice that "rainbow vacuum scam" was a suggested search phrase when I started googling. Make of that what you will....--LarryMac | Talk 01:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's easy to get overwhelmed by an impressive demo. But ask yourself this: Before you ever heard of this system - were you in such a desperate state of dissatisfaction with your vacuum cleaner that you were looking to spend 1600 euro to fix the situation? I suspect not - I suspect you never really gave the problem a moment's thought. So why now? It doesn't matter whether it works or not - what matters is whether you NEED it. Yeah - so it humidifies the air...if your air is too dry - buy a $20 humidifier. If your air ISN'T too dry (and you didn't rush out and buy a humidifier - so I presume it wasn't) then something that FORCES you to pump humidity into the air whenever you clean the carpet is a terrible idea. Excess humidity promotes mold and dust-mites...the very things you'd hope your vacuum cleaner would help to eliminate. So no...I don't think you need it...if you have 1600 euro's to burn - find your biggest debt (car loan? house loan?) and pay it down. If you have no debts - the stock market is amazingly low now. Hint: "buy low...sell high". SteveBaker (talk) 02:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

These things are impressive, but as above, hardly necessary unless you're desperately trying to find new ways to empty your ever-filling pockets. Try the article luxury good, followed by Veblen good and commodity fetishism. Do these people live longer or spend faster with these goods? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Everybody has missed the most important part of this, "...taking pictures of the models in the Finnish body painting championship at the Fashion+Beauty part..." JIP, where are the pictures? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I recall some years ago having a Kirby Cleaner demo in my home (I have just read the article link mentioned above). The salesman did ALL the tricks written therein but also, he asked if he could demonstrate his cleaner on one of the children's beds. He showed us the piles of "dead skin cells and hair" he extracted which we thought amazing (but we don't as a matter of course normally vacuum our beds - hmmm, maybe we should). I digress. We were still reluctant to spend such a vast sum on what is essentially a vacuum cleaner - SO - he pulled an A4 photograph out of his briefcase which depicted the most horrendous, monstrous, elephantine, multi-tusked creature, with horns and a scaly, slimy body armour, and announced that this was an enlargement of the microscopic bedbugs that we were forcing our children to sleep on and how could we possibly be so cruel etc., etc. Needless to say, we ejected him and his cleaner from the house but we could not, under any circumstances, stop our 7 year-old daughter from screaming when bedtime came. In the end, we had to buy a new mattress, but even that was a fraction of the price of the Kirby Cleaner. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I had that demo too. It worked on me, though. I used our Kirby to paint my fence and give my family massages, among other things. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly what the salesperson showed me too. It was very convincing, but not convincing enough for me to purchase a 1600 € cleaning system. JIP | Talk 23:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

@CambridgeBayWeather, maybe we nicely side-stepped it because of the ins and outs of who owns copyright of the artwork, can they be reproduced blah blah etc etc... Still it's worth another question. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am acquintated with two of the artists, and could probably ask them if they are OK with me publishing pictures of their models. Unfortunately I don't know any of the other artists. JIP | Talk 23:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Does HR and BP drop while sleeping

For the average human, does the heart rate and blood pressure drop while one is asleep? Acceptable (talk) 23:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Heart rate drops[8] during sleep. Blood pressure falls on average 20%[9], though the first article says bp rises during REM sleep.--Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 13:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

That all depends on who what I'm dreaming about. :-) StuRat (talk) 04:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

November 14

Is it illegal for a minor to purchase alcohol?

Y'all know how it's illegal in Canada and USA to sell alcohol to minors 'ight? But is it illegal for a minor to purchase alcohol if someone accidentally sells it to him or her? If dem coppers find out, will they charge the minor or just the seller? Hustle (talk) 00:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

In the UK AFAIK, the law is constructed such that it is illegal to sell alcohol to a minor. The miner in the transaction has not of itself committed an illegal act. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's nearly impossible to say what the case is "in the US" because each state has its own laws regarding alchohol. But in most places I've lived, I am almost positive that selling to a minor is verboten. --LarryMac | Talk 01:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

In many U.S. states it is illegal to be a "minor in possession" of alcoholic bevs, exclusive of the crime of selling or otherwise providing alcohol to a minor. Here is a Washington state website: [10]. In some Christian churches minors get to drink a bit of alcohol as part of the Eucharist. Sometimes parents give minors alcohol with a meal, and I'm not sure how legal that is in various jurisdictions. This is a complex legal question and we cannot provide legal advice. Edison (talk) 01:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Huh? That's not a request for legal advice; it's a question of what the laws are. Quite different. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure? Signs at bars usually say it's illegal for a minor to attempt to buy alcohol, in my experience.AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed different from state to state. For example, in Delaware, where I went to college, it was illegal for a minor to enter a liquor store at all. I have several friends who were arrested and have a misdemeanor on their records for merely being inside a liquor store while under 21. In other states, there are vastly different laws. In some U.S. states, for example, all hard liquor (i.e. everything except wine and beer) is sold through state owned "ABC" stores; in other states hard liquor is regulated but sold through liscenced private stores, and in others you can buy hard liquor at the 7-11. Remember, everyone, the phrase "In the U.S." is pretty useless with regards to laws; most laws and regulations are managed on a state-by-state basis. It is a product of the federal nature of the U.S. See federalism. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Defining whether something is legal or illegal always requires giving legal advice. 'Law' is just the collection of norms, and needn't be codified by a legislative body. To determine if something is legal or illegal requires interpretation of statutory laws, recorded precedents and even, when no such things exist, the interpretation of "understood social norms." I don't mean to get technical about it, but I think people often forget about this sort of thinking. Lawyers have lots of work to do.NByz (talk) 03:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Under any understanding of the word "law" by any person who is NOT a lawyer, it means "written statutes as passed by the government". Any finer shades of meaning are generally taken to be obfuscations by lawyers, and not in the general idea of questions. When I ask "what is the law about" what I am asking is "What has the government written down in the books that say I can..." --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I just meant that as a more general answer to the "Is x illegal or not?" questions that often come up 'round here. If someone asks if something is legal or not and someone else tells them that it's not statutorily illegal, but then some case law or regional precedent exists that allows someone (the "Crown" or Attorney General etc.) to press charges successfully, they'll be like "Hey! What gives chet?"

If some kid was buying or possessing tons of booze in my county, and the parents weren't doing anything about it and the source was somehow protected or unknown, I'd find some charge to lay... some way get it in front of a judge.NByz (talk) 07:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

More "minor in possession laws references in U.S. states: Minor in Possession , Colorado: [11] . Michigan: [12] , Massachusetts: [13] , California: [14] , Alabama: [15] , Oregon: [16] , Arkansas: [17]. For a general reference, see the blacklisted article at ezinearticles.com/?Minor-in-Possession-of-Alcohol-by-Consumption&id=1075300. Edison (talk) 06:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The impression I get from Liquor stores caught in underage-buying sting, Six Allston liquor stores busted in sting and Montgomery's Underage `Sting' Has Liquor Sellers Reeling is that it's up to the retailer to check and if they don't they will be charged. Strange though the underage sting seemed to get mor hits from Australia and New Zealand than anywhere else. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In Michigan, we had the situation we 19- and 20-year olds could go over to Canada to drink legally and come back home and be charged for MIP for having alcohol in their bloodstream. The court found that the statute's definition of "alcoholic liquor" included the words "which are fit for use for beverage purposes" and slightly alcoholic blood didn't fit that definition.[18] Rmhermen (talk) 14:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Archie Van Winkle

In your write-up of this MOH winner, you should include the fact that there is a monument to him in Juneau, AK —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhysphillips (talk • contribs) 03:54, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT. You have as much ability to add this information as anyone. You should also cite a source where this information can be found, to verify that it is true. But you are quite invited to fix it yourself. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The article on Archie Van Winkle already mentions the monument, and has done since the day it was created. FiggyBee (talk) 05:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The article says "A bullet shattered his arm and an enemy hand grenade exploded against his chest." I am calling B.S or a failure to understand the nature of hand grenades. Edison (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Call BS if you like, but that seems to be what the citation says... FiggyBee (talk) 08:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The citation [19] does read a bit different. ...he rushed through 40 yards of fierce enemy fire to reunite his troops despite an elbow wound which rendered 1 of his arms totally useless. Severely wounded a second time when a direct hit in the chest from a hostile handgrenade caused serious and painful wounds... A hit from a handgrenade = shrapnel from the grenade hit him. A grenade exploding against his chest = the grenade was next to his chest when it exploded. I suggest copying out the citation text. (I don't think they are copyrighted.)76.97.245.5 (talk) 12:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The full citation is already in the article. FiggyBee (talk) 13:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The Matrix and Religion

Is it true that there is a religion based on the movie The Matrix? 206.188.60.177 (talk) 06:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, according to the second paragraph of The Matrix (series)#Reputation and influence? Also check out the references in that article. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 06:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

(Every once in awhile someone comes on here and asks questions like this with the hope and intention of someone creating an article on the subject or legitimating their creation of an article on the subject. Such articles have been deleted many times, and the topic is at the moment ghettoized as a small section of the general Matrix series article. Just giving some backstory...) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And it's usually someone from the 206.188.*.* range. [20] (Although, someone from 71.2??.*.* seems to ask from time to time, as well. [21]) APL (talk) 04:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

A quick glance at this user's edit history makes it clear that we have the same troll. SteveBaker (talk) 19:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey, bub, don't be so quick to call a "troll." S/he/it seems (to me) like s/he/it's interested, that's all. flaminglawyer^cneverforget 22:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Mission row extension

What does mission row extension mean?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.19.240.200 (talk) 08:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm out of my depth here, but no matter – there's Mission Row, a street in Kolkota/Calcutta, and Mission Row Extension information is found here[22]. According to the article, it is/was the centre of various motor vehicle industries: “The motor spare parts business began here in 1958-59. Ninety per cent dealers opened shop here,”... Julia Rossi (talk) 09:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Where? In California it might be short for an extension to a mission style row house or an extension to a row of mission style houses. If you ask for a definition it helps if you give us some context. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 10:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Spending on advertising

I've heard that the correlation between spending on advertising and sales is lead by sales (that is, that sales rise before advertising spending rises) but since all this economic turmoil I've noticed more adverts from businesses that usually advertise infrequently. Have companies for which advertising is a significant expenditure lowered costs (as would be expected from past behaviour due to decreased custom) while other companies have decided to undergo advertising campaigns? Is there an explanation for this? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks 86.7.238.145 (talk) 12:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Advertising and sales go hand in hand rather i.e it is established as one important component of the pre production processes but though your statement contradicts it can hold true for little mushrooming companies which do not have much revinue to spend in advertising which is later leveraged from the sales and profits earned to advertise further hence their graphs of sales and advertising go parallel, which do not ideally happen for the large established companies as a little less or more spending woulfd not effect their existance. May hold otherwise for companies with large manufacturing units and product release to coincide with the global meltdown or recession like this time they have no choice but to still be hopeful to atleast be able to rech the masses to introduce a product.this happens when the forcasting machenism is not effective within the company.Vikram79 (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Part of the answer may be in who decides what a company does and how flexible the internal structure is. In good times, Marketing departments are not seen as a "cost" department, but rather as a "revenue" factor, because their task is to bring in sales. (Tech, R&D and After Sales Service on the other hand are always considered "cost".) So Marketing managers usually have a lot of power and influence in executive boards. When times get lean executive boards decide to cut costs and tend to do that in the departments they consider "cost". Marketing departments throw themselves into overdrive to show that they can do what they are said to do (i.e. increase sales). Nicely plotted graphs will convince the other board members to increase spending on advertising, to keep sales at least stable. If the economy picks up again (as it usually does) after a while Marketing will get all the credit for stable/ increased sales. In case the company cut vital positions in their "cost" departments and can not recover from that loss, no one will blame them for putting all their money in advertising (current Apple vs Vista ads non-withstanding).76.97.245.5 (talk) 10:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Who fixes foreign currency exchange rates - and how?

I bought some Euros a couple of weeks ago for a winter trip to Spain and I got 1.25 Euros to the British Pound. Last week the rate fell to about 1.19, and today it stands at 1.13 (all at tourist rates). So is someone trying to tell me that the British economy fell by about 10% in 2 weeks compared with the rest of Europe, when the Irish, Spanish, Greek, German and other Eurozone economies are in a mess? I find that such a collapse is so hard to believe so any enlightenment will be gratefully received. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Currency exchange rates are driven by what the market will bear. I personally don't buy into the notion that a market change has a one-to-one correspondence with a real world change (your 10% fall example), though opinions as to what the correspondence actually is vary wildly. — Lomn 16:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The quote "In the short term the markets are a voting machine, in the long term they are a weigh machine" comes to mind. You are assessing a current price that changes by the second against a measure that doesn't. If a listed company's share price increases 20% it doesn't mean its output has increaesed by 20%, it doesn't mean the company will make 20% more profit, it is an indication of growing confidence in that share. The buyers are factoring in vast amounts of information (or just following the herd/taking a punt). The same is true of currency markets. The change is not necessarily related to real-change in the currency (or stock) so much as pricing in of knowledge, assumptions, factors etc. ny156uk (talk) 17:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

A more direct answer is that the pound sterling used to be a favorite of investors because UK interest rates were higher than in the euro zone, United States, Japan or Switzerland. Investors could borrow a foreign currency at a low interest rate and invest in Sterling to earn a higher interest rate (plus a good chance of Sterling rising as others did the same). This is known as the carry trade. The Bank of England has signalled its intention to cut interest rates and recently did so dramatically. The Bank of England's base interest rate is no longer much higher than those of competing currencies. It is now slightly lower than the discount rate for the euro. As a result, carry trades that yielded a profit now generate losses. Furthermore, the Bank of England has signalled an intention to cut rates further. This has led investors to liquidate their Sterling investments, selling Sterling to repurchase the currency in which they borrowed money to repay loans in order to cut their losses. The further Sterling drops, the more investors are motivated to cut their losses. It is something of a vicious cycle, and it reveals little about the relative health of the British versus the euro-zone economies. Marco polo (talk) 04:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Selling strategy

I have recently been interviewed to take charge of the sales bit of a telecom firm as a manager though, to one far flung areas, as these areas are predominently occupied by business families or the farmers, which in percentile is 20-80 % approx. Are there any strategy to go about reachng the masses to have them buy this product? i do also have a hand in the marketing and sales department to work to the benefit of the project.any "out of the book" comment would be appreciated greatly.Vikram79 (talk) 17:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you are trying to sell phone services to (mostly) farmers, which means convincing them to switch from their old company. I would imagine farmers would need to communicate to suppliers and customers quite some distance away, so some plan without individual long distance charges for each of these calls might be in order, perhaps with a higher monthly charge instead. Farmers also tend to have a rather uneven income throughout the year, with most of it coming in at harvest time. Thus, a plan that only requires one yearly payment, after harvest time, might be a good selling point. Finally, if you could offer a free number where they can call in and punch in a code to get relevant current commodity prices (corn, wheat, etc.), that might be a nice gimmick, too.

For the business/family portion of the market, the first item (no long distance fees per call), would also be important, as they will likely also need to communicate with employers, stores, etc., at long distances, as well. One of your biggest challenges will be to convince the potential customers that they will get the same quick repairs as they currently do, with a new provider. For those in isolated communities, especially those which lack cell phone towers to provide a back-up, land lines are absolutely essential. Thus, when the lines go down those people are totally isolated until they are fixed. Another problem you are likely to encounter is that people in those communities will be very reluctant to change. You might want to offer free or very low cost service to, say, the local school or church, to help convince the residents that you offer a good service and are reliable and part of the community. StuRat (talk) 04:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There are two questions that might influence what strategies you can employ. Where are we talking. and What does the competition offer. If they offer free long distance with a higher monthly base rate, then you'd have to offer s.th. else to convince people to switch. Other factors like e.g. who owns the lines (cables) or how much would it cost to put in new satellite links and a local network also come into play. "telecom" is a broad description. It describes a company that sells Voip just like one that offers a whole range of products to compete with the likes of AT&T or Telefonica. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 11:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Free Spam

Is there a place where I can sign-up my e-mail address to receive bulk spam mail? Acceptable (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Try posting the email here for screen scrapers to see maybe? Also try clicking on banner ads and signing up for things like free credit checks or whatnot... You could always respond to some spam mail you get on another address with your spam one by sending a one word email or the like so they will know your address is active. Just be wary of malware. Try googling for mailing list signups and signing up to as many as you can find. This person tried to get as much spam as he could for an experiment—Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.16.15.23 (talk) 20:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If you respond to spam by telling them to stop sending it to you, that will assure the sender that the address they reached is a "live one" and they are likely to increase the amount of spam you receive and sell your name to other spammers. Edison (talk) 23:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There are strategies that will increase the amount of spam you'll get - and others have indicated some of them. But there isn't a single place to sign up to get the stuff. Companies that specialise in spam-elimination use honeypot accounts that they know will never receive any real mail to collect spam messages. SteveBaker (talk) 06:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This discuss what letter of the alphabet to choose when trying to attract spam or perceived spam. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Side note: If you're planning to prank someone by getting them onto spam lists, be prepared for them to be annoyed. :) Steewi (talk) 00:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

'Shillong'

Hi all, is there a reason why Shillong is called the Rock Capital of India...Vikram79 (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This should help you out. Tomdobb (talk) 20:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Chickens and there eggs

what came first, the chicen or the egg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.111.45 (talk) 21:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The egg, by a very long time indeed. Dinosaurs had eggs. Algebraist 22:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's usually assumed that the question refers to chicken eggs, in which case the answer depends on your definitions. It probably doesn't surprise anyone that we have an article on subject: Chicken or the egg. --Tango (talk) 22:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

and the science prize goes to Algebraist here[23] though there are other views. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There are indeed several ways to constrain the question to make it hard to answer. If you change it to "Which came first: the chicken or the chicken-egg?" - then you can't answer it. But if you don't change the question - which only mentions an egg - without restrictions - then you have to say this:

• At some point in the past there were no chickens - they had not yet evolved.
• Sometime later there were chickens - which evolved from some other kind of bird (a "proto-chicken").
• We may safely assume that proto-chickens laid eggs.
• So when the first bird that had the appropriate genetic makeup to be called a "chicken" appeared, it hatched from an egg laid by a proto-chicken.
• However - since we're NOT modifying the question - then the very first creature that we'd formally define as "a chicken" definitely hatched from an egg. It wasn't a "chicken egg" because it was laid by a proto-chicken...but that's OK because the question does not mention that restriction.

So - the egg came first - no question. It's not difficult or ambiguous.

SteveBaker (talk) 06:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

So you've contradicted yourself in saying that the constrained version is unanswerable: according to your sequence of events, the chicken came first, out of a proto-chicken egg, then later came a chicken egg. I note that when thinking in terms of evolution, this question is an example of the Sorites paradox. --Sean 17:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a contradiction. The constrained version is problematic because the definition of "chicken egg" is fuzzy. Is it an egg laid by a chicken or an egg from which a chicken may hatch? It's also pretty likely that whatever gene had to appear in order to change a proto-chicken into a chicken had no material effect on the eggs produced by that animal...in that case the eggs that proto-chickens and chickens laid might be identical in every regard. But the question isn't constrained - so it doesn't matter. SteveBaker (talk) 19:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you have to pin down the definition of "chicken egg" - is it an egg that came from a chicken, or an egg that will produce a chicken. You can then apply the logic above which gives you your answer ('chicken' and 'egg', in that order). DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Where does the Easter Bunny come into the picture? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think everyone's agreed that both the chicken and the egg came before the Easter Bunny. FiggyBee (talk) 00:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Easter Bunny represents a known mechanism for creating an egg without a chicken. Occam's Razor forces us to consider that the Easter Bunny came first. This prevents us from having to "multiply entities" by relying on an unevidenced "proto-chicken". APL (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Easter Bunny is conclusive evidence against evolution? The creationists will be thrilled! :) --Tango (talk) 14:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure - any creature that encases it's young in chocolate eggshells and abandons them in places where small human children may predate on them is not going to survive without an intelligent designer helping them along. Evolution is busted. SteveBaker (talk) 02:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The Easter Bunny is dead. Gwinva (talk) 02:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Creationists have no problem. The book says that God created the animals, not the eggs. Phil Burnstein (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Party Bus

Okay, so a couple of my friends and I have decided that it would be awesome and very convenient (don't ask why) if we had some type of bus or large van. After searching around craigslist, we came across this. It looks pretty good, and we've also talked to the owner top establish it is in good running condition and that we're interested in buying it.

My question has two parts. The first is what would be the real value of said vehicle? I asked the owner how he came to his asking price of $1500, and he said he just estimated (it has approximately 150,000 miles on it). Bluebook doesn't have an entry for a vehicle like that to my knowledge after a quick search...so I'm asking you guys what you think it would be worth.

Secondly, we come to the actual purchase. I'M NOT ASKING FOR LEGAL ADVICE. All of my friends as well as myself are under 18, which presents a problem as far as I'm aware due to our age. As far as I know, none of us can legally purchase this vehicle because we're minors, so we are planning to get one of our parents to hold the title and do the signing, etc.. So I'm curious about possible solutions to the insurance problem. I think that Wisconsin requires some form of basic/minimal insurance by law, but I don't know. What possible solutions are there to this problem of insurance? We're all new to the real world so we are not very well versed with this, a good answer here may teach all of us a valuable life lesson and help secure our future ;-). But I wouldn't expect a premium to be too high on a bus like that, so let's pretend cost is not an issue. Thanks for the help and suggestions! --71.117.41.17 (talk) 22:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about valuing such a vehicle, much less about insurance costs where you are - but I do know that you are correct in describing yourselves as "not very well versed" when it comes to the subject of insurance versus vehicle value. You see, it has far less to do with the value of the vehicle concerned than the risk that YOU pose to other vehicles, property, and people. Where I live in the UK we see oodles of young drivers who have just passed their driving test (age 17 in the UK) who then go out and buy a "Banger" for a couple of hundred pounds sterling; they then do a home paint and chrome job on it for another couple of hundred pounds or so; and then they approach an insurance company who will only offer "Third-Party, Fire and Theft cover", which basically covers the other person's car but not yours regardless of who caused the accident. Of course, if the other person DID cause the accident you would have a claim on their insurance but your own car would be out of action or unrepaired until that claim was settled. And at 17 with no driving experience behind them, such minimal cover will cost well over £1000. Which goes towards explaining why about 10% of all British cars are on the roads without ANY insurance. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 23:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, at age 18 getting minimal insurance for my absolute turdmobile of a car would have cost me about £1050. At age 23 it's down to £280. Inexperienced drivers (and most distinctly inexperienced male drivers) cause a huge proportion of accidents and insurance companies reflect that. ~ mazca ^t|c 00:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Auto insurance comes in two major varieties: insurance against loss or damage to the vehicle, and insurance against other people suing you after an accident. You probably don't want to insure the bus against loss, but you'll want as much liability insurance as you can afford.

The traditional solution to the insurance problem is to add your bus to your parents' insurance, with you listed as a driver. The insurance bill will usually list how much of the bill is for which vehicle, so you pay your parents for the insurance on your vehicle, and then they pay the full bill to the insurance company. Since you're under 25, insurance isn't going to be cheap. --Carnildo (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that you check into your states laws with respect to the class of drivers licence required for a multi-seat vehicle. You may be required to have some sort of taxi/chauffer licence. In Northern Canada I need a class 5 to drive a regular vehicle but a class 4 to drive a 15 seat school bus or a taxi and a class 2 to drive the 40 seat bus. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please verify the following info using a knowledgeable source before acting on it. As I suspected "location, location" makes all the difference. If I read this page correctly it's not the auto that gets insured in Wisconsin, but the driver [24]. If the auto is bought by one of your parents then you as a family member are covered under their liability insurance, your friends are covered if your parents permit them to use their vehicle. (For safety sake I would put a written permit with the insurance details in the glove compartment.) Premiums are based on how much of the bill for an injured party the insurance will pay in case you have an accident. (Not on the value of your vehicle.) In general your parents will have to pay for whatever portion of the bill the insurance doesn't cover. If they prove they can't because they are broke there's something called uninsured driver coverage. Ask s.o. how that works. As far as the bus is concerned: "...Collision premiums are based on the make and model year of your car. You should evaluate the current market value of your car and your ability to afford a similar car should it be destroyed before you purchase this coverage. You may not need this coverage if your car has decreased in value or if you can afford to replace it." Vehicle price: Wisconsin doesn't exactly have an arid climate, so rust is an issue. If non of your parents is auto savvy, get a workshop to have a look at the vehicle before you take it. (Either have the sellers cover the cost or split the bill.) The guys in the ad don't strike me as people who tended to such things as transmission fluid and filter changes. The fact that they didn't paint it (recently) is actually more reassuring than if they had, because you can see what would otherwise have been covered. [25] [26] These sites should give you some basis for negotiating a price. (Sounds a bit high by comparison. You'll have to decide how much value you place on the bus modifications.) Keep in mind that with a used car the purchase price is not the final price. You will have to budget repairs. The transmission may still be the first one, which means it may or may not have some miles of life left. It has reached an age where the way it has been treated can mean it has another 50,000 left or is way past due for rebuilding. Another things to keep an eye on with a van is your battery. Make sure the dealer checks the connecting points of the bus body and the frame. Since it doesn't sound like you want to start taking up van maintenance as your new hobbies, nor have a lot of buddies / parenting bodies that are car savvy, you'll have to get everything done by a workshop. That can get expensive in a hurry. On the other hand it doesn't sound as though you will have to rely on this vehicle as your only mmeans of transportation. So if you do encounter a repair bill that exceeds the purchase price you can just junk it. Couldn't find anything on fuel consumption for the base model. Good luck with your plans. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 14:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your excellent responses thus far. 76.97, the links you gave me were particularily useful in determining a ballpark price, thank you for that! And also thank you all for the responses to my insurance question. It appears I am indeed a true n00b when it comes to matters of insurance, but at least now I understand it better! --71.117.36.200 (talk) 15:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you need a special license to drive a bus? Louis Waweru  Talk  16:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Depends on location, but usually yes. See Commercial driver's license. According to the article, you need a CDL in the US if you are driving a vehicle, regardless of weight, designed to transport 16 or more people. -- 128.104.112.72 (talk) 21:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Boohaaaa Forget commercial driver's license. If they are all under 18 then all they have are "probationary" licenses. These are the rules for Wisconsin [27] You can't go partying without an adult with a license driving. None of you can take more than one passenger (plus any family members you like - just what you wanted that bus for, right?) @ 128 If you look at OPs link the vehicle they are looking to purchase seats 10. Unless Wisconsin has some restrictions I don't know about that should be o.k. with an adult license. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 01:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

In the state of Wisconsin, GDL (Graduated Drivers Licensing) lasts for 9 months without moving violations or until the driver turns 18. Wisconsin DOT Teen Driving FAQ --71.117.34.23 (talk) 23:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

November 15

It's snow much harder to shovel

I find myself with a gravel driveway for the first time this winter, and don't quite know how to clear the snow off it. A snow blower would send gravel flying at high speeds, and shoveling seems likely to result in large quantities of gravel tossed on the lawn, as well. So, what do other people with gravel driveways do when it snows ? Don't worry, there's snow wrong answer. StuRat (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There's really nothing you can do, other than attempting to get as much off as possible with a shovel. Usually just driving over it enough will help by compacting it, and since it's gravel anyway, you won't have to worry too much about traction. This came up from a quick Google search. --69.146.230.243 (talk) 05:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Forget the snow blower for now. If the winter where you live is long then the best thing is to drive over it now until it gets packed down. It will then resemble and feel like a regular cement roadway. Then with the next snowfall you can use the snowblower. Of course you should have treated it like a runway and put down a binding agent combined with regular packing and watering during the summer month. This would then have allowed you to grade and use the snowblower during the winter. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Scatter Rock Salt over the drive, especially where the wheels will drive so as to create traction - and drive it into the snow - literally, by driving over it several times. And repeat the exercise until the snow stops falling. But scrape your shoes clean on a doormat, or better still, remove them, before trudging the salt through the house. 92.21.135.184 (talk) 13:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Except that Halite your car, the reinforced concrete in the garage and other steel don't mix too well. Plus there is a limited temperature range and it's not good for plants and lawns. Save your garden from salt damage seems to say that it works to -9C but I have seen other sites (commercial) that indicate it works to -30C. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the diff may be that dry salt only works to -9C, but, if you "get it started" by adding some water, it can work down to -30C. However, I don't want to destroy my lawn, car, and the concrete portion of my driveway, though, and salting the driveway seems to do just that, as you've noted. StuRat (talk) 15:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well Stu - it seems you're stuck between a Rock(salt) and a hard place, which might just mean you're going to have to park your car out on the street, which will probably be gritted and salted by your local Traffic dept., anyway. And as a regular "salter" for 30+ years living in the icy wastes of central Scotland, and given the quantities and relatively short periods of use, in my experience, I can only say that the resilience of my verdant lawn and the concrete base of my garage must be infinitely superior to yours. Only saying..............92.21.135.184 (talk) 16:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Driving over snow repeatedly will turn it into ice, or at least that's what it does here. It's much more difficult to shovel after that and much worse for anyone trying to walk on it. Maybe it doesn't do that on gravel though? Adam Bishop (talk) 21:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If it partially melts and then refreezes, it will turn to ice (that's why skiing during sunny weather is horrible - the sun melts the snow then it freezes overnight and you end up skiing on a steeply tilted ice rink...). I think you would have to compact it a lot for it to turn to ice without having been melted first, though. --Tango (talk) 01:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Move somewhere warmer.--212.139.78.231 (talk) 09:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe global warming will solve the problem in another 50 years or so. StuRat (talk) 16:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I've concluded that I'll shovel when I get enough snow so I can shovel the top layers off without getting to the gravel. When I get down to the gravel I'll leave it alone. If it forms into ice, I'll salt it. StuRat (talk) 16:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You should have been a politician - you have just demonstrated that you CAN please all the people all of the time. 92.20.215.140 (talk) 16:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

...but only if you're bisexual. StuRat (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, you don't have to be bisexual to be a politician, Stu. You just need to be prepared to fuck anyone, regardless of their sex or age. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Bisexual to shovel snow?? Reminds me of an old joke - What's the difference between a snowman and a snow-woman? S'no balls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.158.20 (talk) 01:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

...where you place the carrot ? StuRat (talk) 03:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ahh - but - that's getting to the root of the issue !!!!92.21.226.176 (talk) 20:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Watching porn before an exam

I have heard that having sex before an important game helps sportsmen perform better. Does watching porn before the day of a VERY important exam have a similar effect? Thanks. This is very important. 122.161.173.212 (talk) 09:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought that the axiom was the other way round? Anyway it appears that either way it makes no difference, Sex Before Sport?, Sex Before Competition, The myths of sex before sport and Sex before the big game?. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Aw what a bummer :-/ 122.161.173.212 (talk) 09:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Could be worse, you might think these are (work safe) porn links. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

They did this on braniac and found that that people (specifically men) perform better in sport after sex. This is because there will be more testosterone in the bloodstream and it will increase muscle protein synthesis. However, the effects of that would not been seen immediately, so it is probably more psychological than anything else, ie increased confidence. I would guess that watching p0rn before an exam would just distract you and make you less able to concentrate on the exam. SN0WKITT3N 12:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with snow. i tried oncejust to realise what a bl;under it was as i could not switch my head off the"oh my god, harder" to the american civil warVikram79 (talk) 12:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There is recent research that suggests that market traders' success is correlated with their level of testosterone. How much you want to extrapolate from one study is another matter. Does sexual activity "use up" the hormone, or lead to more production, for example? I don't know. But you may wish to learn more here. BrainyBabe (talk) 12:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

One obvious flaw in the theory that sex before an exam will improve performance is that higher testosterone levels only help with activities where physical strength and aggressiveness are needed. Not only won't these attributes assist you on a test, they may make it difficult to sit still and concentrate (as in Vikram79's example). So, the only way sex before an exam could help your grade is if it's with the teacher/instructor/professor. StuRat (talk) 14:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If you were totally unprepared for the exam, the added testosterone could make it easier for you to scrunch your exam paper up into a ball, throw it and hit the examiner right between the eyes. Fribbler (talk) 14:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Having sex with the teacher may be counter-productive. They might have a flash of conscience, and think this way: "Hmm, I guess I really shouldn't have had sex with my student, being unethical and all. What if it comes out; my reputation and career will be f***ed. People will say I only gave them good marks because they slept with me, and we'll both be f***ed. I'd better mark them harder than I would otherwise have done, to make sure there can be no perception of favours being traded. At least, that way, even if my career goes down the toilet, their mark can stand and their whole life won't be ruined". -- JackofOz (talk) 20:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You're doing it wrong. You need to sleep with your teacher and then threaten to report them if they don't give you an A. --Tango (talk) 00:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. We're not allowed to give legal advice here, but illegal advice is okay? :-) --Anonymous, 05:29 UTC, November 16, 2008.

We're not allowed to give legal or medical advice because such advice should always come from a licensed professional. There's no licensed profession for giving illegal advice (although one could consider "prisoner" to be, de facto, such a profession), ergo we can do so! --Tango (talk) 14:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd be wary of whoever gives odd advice to cope with exams. As you know, in any competition there's such a thing as a "psych-out"[28]. You need to be wired for the focal thing – the exam, by keeping the brain clear and go to it fresh. Better to keep buzzy things on hold (and here's me thinking market traders' power was in those suits they wear...) Julia Rossi (talk) 07:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I liked this novel (paraphrased) way to cheat which Bart Simpson came up with: "I figured out a completely new way to cheat; first I make a list of facts which I think might be on the test, then I memorize them all. It's just like cheating with crib notes, but with no paper trail, so you can't ever get caught !". StuRat (talk) 16:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

What we have all overlooked in our efforts to be helpful is what sort of exam. If, for example, it is in anatomy or gymnastics, the porn videos might prove to be extremely misleading. If it is a mathematics exam, or one for say real estate qualifications, that's probably safe. BrainyBabe (talk) 23:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Another thing we may have overlooked is that we're talking about "watching" porn, as if that were all there is to the question. Not that I personally would know, of course, but I'm reliably informed that those who watch porn often find themselves engaging in other, er, solitary activities that result in fluid release. Not to mention dwarfism, hairy palms and insanity. If the activity in question is confined to visual enjoyment, then it may have less impact on exam performance. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No comment on the maths one but I'm sure there are some porn films which will mislead you for your real estate qualifications. For example, most hot women/guys/couples looking at a house don't want to try doing it in every single room with the agent so you'll be ill advised to recommend fondling clients as part of the sale process in an exam Nil Einne (talk) 11:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if the specific act of watching porn would help, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if masturbation is very helpful before an exam. Masturbation is extraordinary at relaxing the body and removing tension. I wouldn't recommend doing it in a school bathroom (that's just nasty), but I warmly recommend a quick wanking in the morning before school! And not just for that reason! 83.250.202.208 (talk) 09:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment A lot of people appear to be presuming the OP is male however that was never stated. Anyway to answer the question, if watching porn means you don't get a good nights sleep or miss out on that last minute cramming section then it may not help. On the other hand if it means you can concentrate on the exam rather then doing the hot hunk/gal next to you during the exam then it may Nil Einne (talk) 11:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Forcasting

How far can we compare forcasting as an element of assuming in general or financial point of view? and if they are synonymous "to a certain extent" which is the element of which? any suggestions would be gladly ambraced..Vikram79 (talk) 12:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't follow your question. Do you mean weather forecasting, stock market forecasts or something else ? StuRat (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

hi STUrat i mean customer behaviour forcasting in relation to the the changing markets trend effecting their behaviour in return effecting business decisions and the change in the management decisions.Vikram79 (talk) 17:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say trends in customer behavior can often be predicted based on economic conditions. For example, it was quite predictable that we would eventually use gasoline more quickly than we can produce it, which was certain to lead to shortages and skyrocketing gasoline prices, which, in turn, will shift customer demand to smaller cars and/or vehicles using alternative energy sources. However, the short term orientation of most automotive company CEO's led them to ignore this reality and focus on large, gasoline powered vehicles since they were more profitable in the short term.

Why this short term orientation ? The newer, low-cost transaction price of stock trades makes it possible now to trade stocks quickly, whereas previously any profits from such quick trades would have been eaten up by transaction costs. This then leads to stockholders who want quick profits, and have no concern for the long-term profitability of the company, as they will have sold all their stock by then. The CEO's and boards of directors then reflect their stockholder wishes, and make all decisions based on short term profitability only. The cure ? Higher taxes on stock sales if the stock has been held for a short period of time, and lower taxes if held for long periods of time. StuRat (talk) 17:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks STUrat, i have some clarity now.cheersVikram79 (talk) 19:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. StuRat (talk) 20:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Names of parts of the body

List of human anatomical features doesn't answer this question. What is the name of the silver snake-like marking under the skin that represent sudden growth, e.g. during adolescence, or on pregant women's bellies? And does Wikipedia have a list of names for these odd parts of the body, like the philtrum or the hairline on the nape of the neck or all the individual toes or the frenulum under the tongue? Gather and label the obscurities, and bring order to the universe! BrainyBabe (talk) 12:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Stretch marks, or striae, aren't usually considered to be anatomical entities. They are a physical manifestation of rapid growth. Like wrinkles are signs of ageing. Fribbler (talk) 13:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

By Googling I found big toe, little toe, middle toe, toe 1 thru toe 5, the piggie who went to market etc. Many languages call them feet fingers. Not everything in the universe has a name. "There are stranger things in heaven and earth ...." Phil Burnstein (talk) 10:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

getting jobs when under 18 (really pissed off under 18 year old)

Im only after a part time job to make a bit of money, however i am finding it increasingly difficult. I am 17 and from the UK and had a job before (however it was working for the family business - i still got paid though!) and the only opportunities availible are all unpaid work experience placements (i've had plenty of those over the years!) and im not after that, what advice can you give me to be able to get a part time job (i constantly look everywhere & send CV's in and never get a reply)?, why is so hard in the UK to get one? i seriously gonna pretend to be 18 because it is getting annoying —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.2.92 (talk) 14:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm in the UK, and I worked at a McDonalds part time when I was 16-18. Pretty horrible job, but they have no problem employing 16-17 year olds and the hours are very flexible. I had friends that got jobs at supermarkets at the same age. Where have you been trying? ~ mazca ^t|c 15:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What skills/abilities do you have ? What sort of job would you like ?86.202.29.124 (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)DT

I agree with Mazca above. OK, we are having a recession and there may not be as much dosh being splashed around by the consumer public - but we are only 6 weeks away from Christmas when most of the supermarkets and fast food chains will be hiring younger and cheaper casual staff. What about working in a garden centre or behind the scenes in Argos. What about being an usher or cleaner in a multi-plex cinema. All those jobs in my area of the UK seem to be filled by people your age. Mind you, at my age, all the policemen and doctors seem to be your age too !!! 92.21.135.184 (talk) 16:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about the UK. The job market is pretty tight everywhere, though. That means that "the ends of the distribution curve" find it hard to find employment. Forget jobs that ask you to mail in your CV. They are usually looking for regular employees. Traditional job market niches for minors like baby sitting, pet sitting and homework help might not be up your alley or have been commercialized where you are, so you'll have to see where you can fit in. Sit down and make a list of special abilities, skills or experience you can offer potential employers. Can you turn a hobby into a business? (Christmas is coming up. Some towns have bazaars. If you are good at crafts you could whip something up for sale. Flea markets are another avenue you might explore.) If you say you "constantly look" does that mean you do things like post notes offering your services on noticeboards in places like supermarkets and the library or are you just looking for job ads posted by potential employers? In a market like this you have to get active. Networking is key to any job hunt. Once you've narrowed down your profile and know what you can offer start spreading the word. Start from your usual social circles like church groups, relatives, sports team etc. Then go where your "customers" i.e. potential employers are. This may involve doing some volunteer work, starting up a new hobby, taking up a sport, joining a club, etc. Remember you are not doing this for the sake of doing it, but in order to meet people who might want to employ you or know s.o. who might employ you. Keep your eyes and ears open and see where someone needs assistance, then see how you could help and approach them with an offer. One thing that might help is a change in your appearance. If you are a jeans and sneakers or tattoo and piercing person you move yourself way farther to the edge of the curve. (There is the occasional job in the entertainment industry and such where it actually helps rather than hinders. But guess what, there are long lines waiting for that one.) What you want to do is convince employers that you are more responsible and grown up than they suspect. So lose the sneakers for shoes, disarm the metal arsenal and head for the "Prince William's cousin" or "Princess Diana's niece" look. There are jobs available that one can do online and/or freelance. They do usually require special skills, tough. Go google with all your abilities and see if s.th. pops up. Good luck. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 16:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

As an addendum, I'd strongly recommend against pretending you're 18. Most, if not all, reputable companies tend to want to confirm your details to your passport or similar before you start. ~ mazca ^t|c 18:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried asking in any locals bars and restaurants if they need anyone to wait on tables or wash up? Or local newsagents if they need anyone to deliver papers? Or supermarkets, as others have mentioned. Sending in CVs is a lost cause at your age, the only jobs you're likely to get are ones involve going into a place and asking if they want to hire anyone. --Tango (talk) 18:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

• Firstly - I suppose it's possible that there is something horribly wrong with your CV or whatever cover letter you sent with it. If you can find a professional (a careers expert at school/college perhaps) who could give it a look - that may help a whole lot. If you can get help with interview technique - grab that with both hands! Given how hard it is to get to an interview - you don't want to blow it by not having a great answer for the dreaded "What is your worst feature?" or "Why do you want to work here?" questions.

• Secondly - "cold calling" by sending out CV's in scatter-gun fashion is a process that may require sending a LOT of CV's before you get a response - so don't be too concerned if you send out (say) a dozen and don't get any results...send out two dozen - a hundred. Sometimes local unemployment offices can help you with free postage and stuff like that.

• Thirdly - what works a MILLION times better than sending out CV's "cold" is to network with friends & family. In the case of a not-"key-position" job (such as you might get at age 17 without lots of qualifications or experience) - the company will probably get an insane number of CV's for every position they have open. Probably 80% of the people who apply are qualified enough to do the work - so the poor human-resources person is faced with a pile of perhaps a couple of hundred CV's and just a couple of jobs to fill. Are they going to carefully read through a few hundred CV's and carefully sieve out the best? No. They are going to flip though them very quickly - rejecting almost all of them with nothing but a glance for the most trivial and superficial reasons. Then they'll call a handful of people for an interview...the process is more or less random.

So what you've got to do is to improve the odds by somehow standing out from the crowd. There have been lots of tricks proposed for this in the past - printing your CV on bizarre objects or packaging it weirdly - or using silly paper colors or shapes - but those are probably gimmicks that the HR person has seen a million times before. So I'm not sure that's a good plan - and I don't recommend it.

That means you need other ways to get noticed. Best of all - you want the HR person to be looking at your CV before the job has even been advertised yet...before it gets mixed up with a hundred other ones. What you want is for someone you know (or possibly someone who knows someone you know) who works at the company and knows that they need an employee to take your CV and present it by hand to the HR person. "Hey - I heard we need a new Widget nerdler! My sister's friend is a GREAT widget spangler - I bet he could nerdle widgets pretty good - he's a good kid - could you take a look at his CV!" Well, that's something the HR person can't easily ignore. While your friend's brother stands there in his office with a hopeful look on his face - the HR person pretty much has no choice but to at least read the CV. And with even a minimal a personal recommendation from an existing (and presumably, trusted) employee, your CV has a head start over all the others...which is all it needs if they are all pretty similar.

So it's a matter of how many people would do that for you. This is where the "Networking" thing comes in. You need to hit up every friend and relative (no matter how distant) for recommendations. Sit down and make a list of EVERYONE you know - then methodically go through that list - phone (or go and visit) all of them. If you have accounts on Facebook, MySpace or other social networking sites - make sure everyone on your friends list gets asked to put your name forward like that. Heck - you could even (gently) ask people whom you've worked with on Wikipedia to help (use their Talk: pages though!) Get a stack of CV's and give them to absolutely everyone who knows you...even people you don't like much or who you don't think could help - you have nothing to lose. Have a copy of your CV (nicely presented) online somewhere - so you can send the URL via email or whatever. Make a point of making contacts everywhere you can. Start talking to your next door neighbours - make sure they all know. If you've worked in other places in the past - make sure your ex-coworkers know that you're on the job market. Widen that network - ask your contacts whether THEY have contacts who could help. Remember the "six degrees of separation" rule - in this world, there is a friendship chain of at most ~6 people between you and everyone else on the planet. If you need to get a personal introduction with some manager at some very specific workplace - there IS a chain that you can follow to get directly to them. Find it - use it.

You can deliberately make new links. Suppose you want a job in a particular supermarket - make sure to talk to the checkout people when you shop there - make a point of picking the same checkout person every time you go - get chatty with them - then, when they know you well enough to recognise you...say "Hey do you know if there are jobs open here?"...and "Would you mind giving my CV to your boss - it probably won't get read otherwise."...do this everywhere - sooner or later, you'll find someone who will!

When you get an interview - remember how hard it was to get? Make it count. Before you go - research the company - read everything on their website - be ready with smart, intelligent questions...and make SURE you've got good answers for all of the god-awful questions that interviewers sometimes ask.

SteveBaker (talk) 19:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

TBH, unless you're trying to build a career, I doubt a CV will be a lot of use. If you don't mind doing shitty jobs for shitty pay, there's lots of work out there. Just before Christmas, many retail places are hiring part-timers - just walk in and ask for an application form. Mention any special skills or experience you might have. For example: till/checkout skills, experience with kids, prepared to work nights, etc. Astronaut (talk) 21:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I really can't see a 17 year old getting any job that requires a Human Resources department to be involved in the process. Just walk in off the street, ask to see the manager, ask if they have any jobs going and keep trying until someone says yes. --Tango (talk) 22:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the first jobs are always hard to get, for everyone. Once you get a foot in the door though they become a lot easier. Have patience. You will have an entire lifetime to do boring work for money... --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Lots of manual labor jobs also require little or no qualifications. You could look to get on a road crew or a construction crew or work as a domestic of some sort. If you are half-way competant, and willing to stick with it, you could find yourself as a supervisor or foreman before too long. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

There are restrictions on what kind of jobs minors can have in the UK that might get in the way of that kind of work. Although, I expect the minimum age for working on a construction site is 16, so a 17 year-old would be ok. However, those kind of jobs are usually full-time, the OP specified he was looking for part time work. --Tango (talk) 01:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

November 16

Fraudulent credit on my account

I have a credit on my recent two bank statements that is clearly fraudulent. It reads something like this ***** BILL PAYMENT 10/19 RESERVATION REWARD 800-7327031 CTUS RESERVAT . I know this is nonsense, because I am internet savvy (not stupid enough to sign up for something I don't want), and I work at a bank, so I am decently savvy with finances. As such, I know I did not actually sign up for this offer - they can not pull out the "he just didn't read the fine print" argument like they do with everyone else (I can think of only one possible exception: when I signed up for a one time deal citywide wifi, it may have been stuck in the fine print. I plan on checking thoroughly). I know how to get my money bank (i.e., Regulation E): what I want to know is if there is a way to report this kind of thing to the SEC or whoever, because my google search [29] clearly shows this has been occurring for a while without law enforcement intervention. My credit card appears to have its number taken and sold to these guys. Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You mean a debit, right? Money taken out of your account? Contact your bank, they will have procedures you need to go through to report it. --Tango (talk) 00:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Correct. But I need to check old bank statements - if I have any more than 60 days old, I won't be able to get it back unless I call the company directly (google reveals they do so if pressed). Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You know, I have faint memories of this happening to me a couple of years ago. It turned out that it was a checkbox I had ticked when i bought some computer equipment online. They (unethically in my view) kept me on for a monthly charge to give me "access to future discounts" or some other garbage like that...

The SEC just regulates publicly traded securities. You would want a consumer group like perhaps [[30]] this one. Your other alternative would be to start up a small claims court case, and send them a letter letting them know (if you can find an address and/or legal company name). If it's a small amount, they'll likely offer a refund rather than flying in, or retaining a lawyer. NByz (talk) 00:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Many banks also have fraud-protection policies, and will not hold you accountable for fraudulent charges against your account. You should probably first contact you bank, and find out what can be done about the charge. I would recommend asking to discuss the matter in person at the bank, as the people who answer the phone lines are often harder to deal with, and its much easier to get things done in person. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Check your bank's fee information very carefully, though. I once had an erroneous debit charge on my account. It was for a small amount, but I instructed to bank to trace where it came from and remove it. And so they did. However, they charged me twice as much as the original debit had been in fees. When I complained they referred to a section in their fees policy for my account. According to that they had every right to charge that fee. (They did lose a customer because of it, though.)76.97.245.5 (talk) 06:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Why, historically, has America not crushed dissent and allowed great freedom?

I won't expand too much here, don't want question removed. What is the history and/or reason for Americas freedom vs almost every other country, regardless of risks? I'm Outta Here! (talk) 02:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

A few reasons:

1. Magna Carta. British based societies value individual freedoms far more than others. Even former African colonies follow this to some extent. Example: lots of governmental subdivisions allows more local freedom. Compare this with say, Cuba.
2. Most Americans are children of people fleeing old world. Puritans are only one example of many. Most of these people left Old World for American Dream and personal freedoms. Diversity requires toleration. Look at old world, from Catalonia, to China, to Persia. They all fight over small things. Americans had melting pot.
3. American history. US left Britain for sake of these freedoms. It's indoctrinated into us from young school age as result. I tend to think this is far less important than other reasons. Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your defintion of "freedom" is, but the US is certainly not the only nation that enshrines notions of "freedom" in its constitution and laws - almost every nation founded since the Enlightenment is founded on such principles. There are plenty of countries in the world where "crushing dissent" is not the norm. You might also want to consider comparative incarceration rates before deciding the US is a uniquely "free" nation. FiggyBee (talk) 03:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Before we get too misty-eyed, it should be noted that America's history of free speech is not exactly unblemished. See the Alien and Sedition Acts, the Comstock laws, the Sedition Act of 1918, Red Scare, McCarthyism, COINTELPRO, etc. as examples where the ideal of free speech ran up against fears of political and cultural instability. When things get bad, "the gloves come off", as the outgoing administration liked to say, and then all sorts of things incompatible with what people usually consider core American values start happening behind closed doors. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

And let's not forget McCarthyism, a force that's still strong enough that a recent Presidential candidate thought merely invoking the "s" word could win him an election... (EC: you didn't, I see :P) FiggyBee (talk) 03:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If you "crush dissent" then there is little "freedom" except to obey those in power. People who came to America often fled oppression, but oppressed others as soon as they were able, whether it was the Pilgrims, William Penn and the Quakers, or Roger Williams and the Baptists. The colonists in America also enslaved Africans and sought to exterminate Native Americans. Edison (talk) 05:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Edison, I suspect you read the post like I first did, as "Why has America not (both) crushed dissent and allowed great freedom", whereas I think the poster actually meant "Why has America (both) not crushed dissent and (also) allowed great freedom?" DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:08, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

See also American exceptionalism. The USA is by no means the only country to allow great freedom, despite your claim that "almost every other country" does not. You will find that while the USA is generally considered free, the more detailed indices show that it is not considered to be in the 14-strong group of "most free" nations, partly because its press freedom is only "satisfactory". On the Freedom of the Press rankings, the USA is ranked 36th. Gwinva (talk) 00:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Free speech of course is almost never absolute in any area. It is often dictated by political purposes. The Fairness Doctrine is one particularly sore spot among conservatives (and rightly so) as it appears to be aimed at right wing talk radio. Other times it is abridged for moral purposes: laws against child pornography, etc. But you already knew all this.

That said, no matter what any other country (or person within the US) claims, I firmly believe the US is at the top of countries with freedoms, even with things like the Patriot Act (you might note that as unpopular as it is, even many "free" countries like Sweden have stricter laws). Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Would you care to explain your reasons for that belief? In particular, would you care to explain your definition of "free"? Which country is the most free is going to depend very heavily on how you define freedom. --Tango (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Magog the Ogre, you mentioned the Puritans but I thought they left England because they found that society too tolerant? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Depends on how you define "tolerant". English society circa 1620 was more "tolerant" of certain social practices than perhaps the Puritans would have for themselves, but that wasn't what really drove them from England. It was that English society, and government policies, was also rather "intolerant" of the Puritans as a group, and actively drove them from the country. After the Hampton Court Conference and Richard Bancroft ascension to the Archbishopric of Canterbury, things got rather hot for the Puritans. Many of the famous Scrooby congregation, who would go on to found Plymouth colony, were imprisoned in Boston, Lincolnshire for a time, as one example. So again, like with the word "freedom", you have to be careful how you define "tolerant". Puritans were more strict than the rest of the CofE at the time, but they were also regularly and officially harrassed for their beliefs... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

How many #1 hits did Johnny Cash, Elvis, and Moe Bandy have?

You might want to try the Entertainment Ref Desk for this question. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

So moved. BrainyBabe (talk) 10:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

How many things have been described as great fakes?

I am thinking here of two amusing literary examples: was it Oscar Wilde who referred to Debrett's Peerage as the greatest work of fiction in the English language? And a century later, Douglas Adams said much the same thing about the Greek ferry timetable. I'd like to collect more examples. Any ideas? BrainyBabe (talk) 11:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Milli Vanilli won awards for their music when they were actually lip synching. That type of thing? Dismas|^(talk) 14:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of them, but the article is revealing! BrainyBabe (talk) 16:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm still trying to find the Wilde. But this is from Dirk Gently, chapter 4:

"Well, what you have to understand, young lady, is that the Greeks, not content with dominating the culture of the Classical world, are also responsible for the greatest, some would say the only, work of true creative imagination produced this century as well. I refer of course to the Greek ferry timetables. A work of the sublimest fiction. Anyone who has travelled in the Aegean will confirm this. Hmm, yes. I think so." BrainyBabe (talk) 18:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Huh! I love Douglas Adam's writing - and ordinarily, I'd trust what he wrote with my life. But I travelled around the Greek islands using their "flying dolphin" hydrofoil services off and on through the 1980's and 90's - and I found them to be spectacularly reliable and invariably on-schedule. I strongly recommend that way of travel - and the Greek islands are the most amazing places to explore. SteveBaker (talk) 02:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The Turk? I'll add something else when it comes to mind. --Taraborn (talk) 23:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Holy Roman Empire, which [Voltaire said to be "neither holy, nor Roman, nor Empire?" Edison (talk)

I would look through Category:Forgery, Category:Hoaxes and Category:Fraud for some ideas, and to kill this thread with (a misuse of) Godwin's law I will suggest the Hitler Diaries. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In 2003, Shaun Greenhalgh and dad revealed but not before scamming art and musseum experts around the country. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Learning to play the Mandolin

I have never learned to read music - I have never played ANY kind of a musical instrument in my life (I am 61) - I am now retired, happy, and active - and for some inexplicable reason, I have the urge to play a musical instrument - not ANY musical instrument mind, but a mandolin. I don't own one - I don't know anyone who owns one - and I don't even know any local schools or teachers - not even a shop that stores them. So - 2 questions - first, how difficult (comparatively speaking) is it to learn to play reasonably well from scratch - and secondly, is there a name for such a mid-life compulsion/crisis. I know some folk go sailing around the world single-handed so I know I am not alone - but why?? 92.20.215.140 (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I taught myself to play the mandolin at age 50, mostly for playing chords. But then I already played the guitar. It took me 2 months. I'd say that the level of difficulty is about the same as the guitar. The mandolin has frets, so it's definitely a lot easier than playing the violin. It's more difficult to tune a mandolin than a guitar though, so I'd recommend investing in a suitable electronic tuner. I would expect any decent shop that sells guitars to also have mandolins. Can't answer your second question. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The website Mandolincafe may be of interest to you. Note that it includes an archive of (presumably legal) mp3 downloads, some of which are very good. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 22:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't see any reason why you can't learn. It can be harder for older people to learn new things, but many have tried and succeeded. Finding a teacher is difficult. The tuning is, if I recall correctly, the same as a violin. A violinist might be able to teach you something (finding notes, reading music), as would a guitarist (technique, music), but they will both have a little bit af trouble adapting. Between the two of them you could get the basics.

As to the last question, if you haven't read midlife crisis yet, it's a good idea (the article, not the crisis). In Australia, the phenomenon known as [grey nomad]]s is getting well known. Empty nest syndrome might also be a factor. Steewi (talk) 00:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

How difficult? It will take the rest of your life, so you need to start learning now. Is there a basis? Opportunity, desire... In Groundhog Day the character Phil Connors' life is repeating itself, forcing him to reevaluate. Among his solutions is to learn jazz piano and impress his friends, and yes, he gets the girl. ^<tinkle> Julia Rossi (talk) 03:03, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

As a pianist/guitarist/mandolinist/violinist, I'd say the mandolin is the easiest for the four to pick up. For chords, many common chords are two- or three-fingered, and bar chords are easier than on a guitar. For melodies, the consistent fifth interval between strings makes it easier for my brain to wrap itself around a pattern (as compared to the guitar's 4th-4th-4th-3rd-4th, which gets me every time). The only exception is that since there are only 4 strings, there is less flexibility in voicing chords, so more complex chords can be real excercises in dexterity. jeffjon (talk) 14:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Re the guitar/mandolin comparison: A trick that might be of interest to guitarists following this thread, is the following: If you take the four deepest strings of a guitar chord (provided the chord includes these strings, obviously), and mirror-image them, you get a mandolin chord. Example:

        Guitar               Mandolin
        G major              G major

Tuning: E A d g b e'         g d'a'e" 
Chord:  G B g d h g'         g d b'g"

        3 2 0 0 0 3          0 0 2 3
        ===========          =======
        | | | | | |          | | | |
        | o | | | |          | | o |
        o | | | | o          | | | o
        | | | | | |          | | | |

--NorwegianBlue ^talk 16:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The other issue with a Mandolin is that, unlike other similar instruments like a Guitar or Violin, it has absolutely NO sustain really to speak of. At a standard tempo, even an accoustic guitar has enough sustain to play individual notes. A mandolin is fairly limited in this regard, it is almost ALWAYS used as a rhythm instrument, and does require some rather fast right-hand strumming, usually 8th or 16th notes, to maintain a good sound. There are some mandolin players who are able to play a "tune" or "melody" on the mandolin, most famously Bill Monroe, but this basically requires lighting fast fret-work on the left hand. You still play it "full strum" with the right hand, and the melody is generally obtained by rapid chord-suspensions and the like. It is a fairly easy instrument to play competantly, but it can be quite hard to reach "the next level" as it were... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

In the mp3 section of Mandolin Café, you'll find many fine examples in various genres of the mandolin being used as the lead instrument, including Ludvig van Beethoven's sonatina for the mandolin. Not all of these require a virtuoso player. The lack of sustain is usually compensated for by using tremolo. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 18:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

True, but tremelo play is quite a difficult skill, given the extremely close spacing of the mandolin strings, and the relative speed and precision required to hit ONLY the strings you want, repeatedly, and at the correct rhythm and tempo. Its certainly more difficult than playing the same tune on a guitar, where you can hit each note once, and let it ring until the next note is needed... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, Louis McManus... Julia Rossi (talk) 08:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Volume of iPod vs Speaker volume

Suppose if I was to plug in an iPod Touch into a pair of computer speakers that have a rotating-knob volume control and suppose the volume units on the two units are interchangable. Is there any different, in terms of sound quality, if I turn my iPod volume to say, 40 volume units and my speaker to 60 volume units compared to if I turn my iPod to 60 volume units and speaker to 40 volume units? Acceptable (talk) 17:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

When I listen to my iPod in my car, I find I get much better quality if I turn up the car stereo's volume than the iPod volume. If I turn the iPod all the way up, I get clicky noises and distortions. Cars (and computers) are intended to make louder noise than iPods and can handle it better. Also, turning the iPod to top volume tends to deplete the battery faster. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 21:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

IPod source -> IPod Amplifier -> Speaker Amplifier -> Speakers. If there is interference, you'll want the IPod output as large as possible and turn the speaker amps down so that any pickup before the speaker amp is amplified the least. If on the other hand the IPod manages to overload the input stage of the speaker amp then you'lll get distortion and want to turn the Ipod down and the speaker up. -- SGBailey (talk) 21:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Simplest answer...Do a test. Listen to both setups, stick with the one you find sounds the best. Try it with some heavy music to maximise chance of distorsion/noise-issues, and try it with some stuff that has very delicate pieces to see if there's a difference there. Your ears are much better at decided what setup works best (for you) than the technical guide or specialist knowledge. There is no right answer unfortunately. Personally I don't enjoy my music to be boom-y or sound too bass-y (base-y?) but some people I know love it that way, so whilst some speakers are technically better, ultimately the most important thing is your preference. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Listening to MP3's with high-end audio system

Would I notice a significant increase in audio quality if I am listening to 128-192 kbs MP3's on a Bose Wave Sounds System or some other high-end audio system compared to if I was listening to it on some decent $100 speakers? If not, what file types would I have to listen to in order to notice the increase in audio quality? Acceptable (talk) 17:44, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an audiophile, so I can't give you many specific details, but in my experience the answer is yes. It will sound significantly better on better hardware. However, if you compare it to the original, high-quality versions, the decrease in quality will become more obvious (in my experience, mp3s sounds better on good hardware than cds on crappy hardware, but cds on good hardware sounds better than mp3s on good hardware). If you want to have as good a quality as you can get, use either high-bitrate versions of mp3s (256 kbs and up), or lossless formats like Apple Lossless or FLAC (these will sound exactly like a cd, they contain identical data) 83.250.202.208 (talk) 12:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Guantanamo Bay vs Cuba

Hypothetically, suppose if Cuba wanted to re-claim the land that US Guantanamo Bay Naval Base is occupying, would they be able to do it? Assuming that Guantanamo Bay does not receive any external aid and must solely rely on their current resources and that Cuba can divert their entire military forces to attack the base. Acceptable (talk) 17:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

C'mon, you will never see this in print (except perhaps here) but Cuba relies on the RENT that the USA pays to Fidel and his cohorts. How else can Cuba afford to train all those doctors? And as to ATTACKING Guantanamo from either inside or outside the island??????? NEVER. The international community would NEVER stand for it. It ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. Fidel and his principles are more loved than John Lennon. But when he goes?? I guess a bit of internal strife - followed by a Cuban Disney World and all that goes with it - including a reality Fidel show. What a bloody shame awaits those lovely people in Cuba.92.20.215.140 (talk) 18:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Um, the reason you "will never see this in print" is because Cuba does not accept rent from the US, because it claims the lease in invalid. See our article on the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. They used to sell the US water but decided to stop doing that. I don't think Cuba gets any profit from having Guatanamo there, and I don't think it has anything at all to do with its medical system. If you're going to spout off about what you "never see in print" you might as well do the five seconds of research it takes to determine whether it is actually true or not, or whether it is just uninformed nonsense. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, it would never happen, but it's an interesting hypothetical question. According to Cuba#Military, they have about 60,000 personnel. Guantanamo Bay has a population of about 8,500 according to [31], and those aren't all military (it includes dependants and contractors), so the Cubans have them massively outnumbered. Cuba's military is rather out of date now, though, I think - it hasn't really had an upgrade since the end of the Cold War. If the Cubans could get the help of the prisoners, then they might be able to pull it off - an attack from the outside timed to coincide with a massive prison revolt could work. Of course, if they actually tried it, the base would get very swift outside help from the rest of the US military and would surely win. --Tango (talk) 18:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why the Cubans couldn't take one measley base, assuming no reinforcements (as you stipulated). It's worth not underestimating the Cuban military—even aside from Bay of Pigs and all that, they've shown themselves to be much more sophisticated than the "omg Castro stooge" stereotype that the US has promulgated since their dictator lost out to another dictator in the Revolution. They have some outdated equipment but it doesn't take the most sophisticated equipment in a world to take over a base (it's another thing if you're talking about talking about jet-on-jet or jet-on-tank interactions, in which high tech can make a big difference).--98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the entire military forces of Cuba could take over Guantanamo, if for some bizarre reason, no support from outside US forces could be provided. The prisoners at GITMO wouldn't be much help, though, being only a few hundred. Note that the US has other military forces in a similar situation, such as those on the border with North Korea. However, the presence of "sacrificial troops" there ensures an immediate US response to any invasion. StuRat (talk) 20:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Could a larger force take a smaller force from a more powerful nation, which was unable to reinforce or resupply in a timely fashion? See Battle of the Little Bighorn . See Battle of Isandlwana. See Battle of Dien Bien Phu. Edison (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

See Falklands war ... Gandalf61 (talk) 13:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That's a good example. Argentina easily took them over, but only until the British fleet arrived and took them back. That was quite a wasted effort on the part of Argentina, whose leadership was quickly dumped as a result.. StuRat (talk) 16:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Tactically it would probably be a cinch. Strategicly it would be beyond stupid. You don't beat up the little brother from the family with 12 kids if you're an only child. Sure, the Cuban military could probably massacre the American forces there. But an unprovoked attack on American forces would also likely not exactly go unnoticed. Its why the American people have always supported the Afghan War more than the Iraq War. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:49, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe some Cuban general who wants democracy in Cuba might order an invasion of GITMO, knowing it will immediately result in a US invasion, overthrow of the government, and US rebuilding. Since Cuba would likely lack the insurgency and ethnic/religious civil war of Iraq and Afghanistan, casualties would be light. StuRat (talk) 16:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

An international relations joe job??? I love it... ROFLMAO. That;s great... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

(Faked-identity conspiracy theories are way older than spam.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 03:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Telephone training

If you feel rather insecure talking on the phone, how could you train to be better at it? What are possible general information phones -excluding 911- I could call to get some practice? Mr.K. (talk) 18:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You could talk to people on skype. I found a number of google hits for message boards of people looking for other people to practice English, for example, which might be a low-stress situation for a native English speaker. Darkspots (talk) 18:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

You could use the 'phone a friend' option. If you're willing to admit it to them, you can arrange with a friend to call them and just talk for a while as practice. Once you can talk casually, you could practice a more formal phone technique with them, as if you are talking in a business situation, giving information. Set up some role playing, where your friend is the secretary for a business and you need some information about the business (opening hours, making an appointment, availability of a product, etc.). Once you can do that comfortably, switch roles. A good friend could help you do it, even if you're just in the next room.

If you're worried about costs, you could use a set of two phones in the one house with an intercom system, so you can talk to someone in the next room, without being charged by the phone company. If you're having trouble that interferes heavily with the way you lead your life, you should ask your doctor about a therapist who can help you understand why you have the trouble and help you get over it improve your lifestyle. Steewi (talk) 01:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit in above line for non-offensive sounding sentence. Steewi (talk) 01:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Googling for "Telephone training" produced about 8.8 million hits(!) - but most seem to be for telephone call center operatives. You can go on one of those courses for a few hundred bucks - there seem to be many DVD's with self-help stuff. However, for 'telephone anxiety' (let's say), those things are unlikely to help you much. Googling "Telephone anxiety" got me 5.5 million hits(!) - the first few of which seemed very relevent. Our article on Social phobia discusses it briefly. SteveBaker (talk) 02:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

November 17

Disliking someone (not a request for medical advice)

Is it possible to become physically ill if you're around someone you dislike? Or even if you think about them? --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 01:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Some sort of Evil eye?--Lenticel ^(talk) 01:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, someone who's put you through the wringer in the past, and now they're back. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 01:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure - that situation could put you under undue stress - and being stressed on a long-term basis can certainly make you sick. There are also all sorts of psychosomatic effects that could happen because of bad mental associations. Yes - definitely. SteveBaker (talk) 01:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Certainly happened to me.--212.139.78.231 (talk) 07:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. If you're around someone who've you really dislike (or have caused you pain in the past), your fight-or-flight response can kick in, raising your blood-pressure and heartbeat and doing all sorts of nasty things (see here for a list). These things can in turn cause other nasty effects.

It can be even worse if you suffer some sort of underlying syndrome, like PTSD or some sort of social phobia. Then the stress response can get totally out of hand and many ugly things can happen 83.250.202.208 (talk) 09:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Boy, I hope not. If it's not possible, then I'll just find someone I dislike to hang out with, and I'll never get sick again! --Trovatore (talk) 07:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

ROTFL - A true mathematician! Dmcq (talk) 09:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Various industry news

I'm having a bit of a hard time finding sources of industry news for ATVs, snowmobiles, and dirt bikes (off highway motorcycles). Is my best bet just going to every manufacturer and going through their press releases and news sections on their web sites? My intent is to collect these items in one place on the net, whether by reprinting if allowed or through links to the articles. Sort of a one stop shop type thing. Dismas|^(talk) 07:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Size of Wikipedia by main categories

Hi, I asked this question a long time ago. Is there data on how Wikipedia's size is distributed among the Main categories? I would love to know how the amount of articles compare between categories, and things like that. So has this info been compiled yet somewhere? Or, is there someplace I could talk at to propose such a thing to be done?? Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 15:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That would be interesting, I wonder how one could find it out, the category system in wikpedia isn't hierarchical. I'd like to see how much overlap there is and the main kinds of things that don't fit in properly. Dmcq (talk) 18:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's the cynic's answer. --Sean 13:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

There's way more Colbert than that. -mattbuck (Talk) 14:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

LOL! Actually, that's pretty much what I'm asking for, but hopefully the real thing won't look too similar to this... :P Kreachure (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Latin small letter reversed s?

You can move this to language or computers, I wasn't sure which to put it under.

What is the code for the symbol that looks like a reversed lowercase s? I've found one for e and c but not for s. 199.67.16.60 (talk) 17:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean this: "ς"? In Unicode, it's ς. Tomdobb (talk) 18:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly, it would be a mirror image of s, like ɘ is the mirror of e, and ↄ is the mirror of c. 74.230.234.231 (talk) 19:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The reason you can't find it is that s is symmetrical! It looks the same backwards.... 94.27.195.51 (talk) 22:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it "ƨ", U+01A8? MTM (talk) 21:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

uh, ƨcratch that... 94.27.195.51 (talk) 22:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Latin Small Letter Tone Two See Zhuang language#Writing systems: This was the Latin-alphabet symbol used from 1957 to 1986 for tone 2 (low falling) in the Zhuang language. Unicode point 01A8 / 01A7 for lower/upper case. jnestorius^(talk) 23:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The biggest point deficit overcome in NBA game?

What was the biggest point deficit overcome in NBA game? What teams played and when was it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.158.196.78 (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Typing Biggest comeback in NBA history into google returns the first result as one of our articles: NBA records. There, it notes that the largest comeback in a game was, and I quote, "The Milwaukee Bucks made the largest comeback in NBA history on November 25, 1977 vs. the Atlanta Hawks. The Bucks overcame a 29 point deficit with 8:43 remaining, finishing the game with a 35-4 run and a 117-115 win." However, the same article also notes that "The Utah Jazz made history on November 27, 1996 by overcoming a 34-point halftime deficit to beat the Denver Nuggets, 107-103" which would seem to qualify as also the largest comeback ever. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:11, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

2005 Toyota Corolla CRS

Okay. I'm looking to buy a car, and I really want to get a 2005 Toyota Corolla XRS. I live in Western NC, and I'm willing to travel a little ways to get it (Maybe 300 miles). However, I can't find one. No matter what. And it's killing me. I want a 6-speed manual transmission, and preferably with power windows/locks. Other than that, I could care less. Help? —Preceding unsigned comment added by EWHS (talk • contribs) 21:14, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried Ebay Motors ? StuRat (talk) 21:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Craigslist? --Blue387 (talk) 21:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Carmax will, for a fee, ship just about any car between any two stores... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 22:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I've shipped cars from one coast of the US to the other - it's typically about $600 and happens within days. You might also prefer to find one from somewhere like Texas, NewMexico, Nevada - where there is no rust! (Although - an '05 ought to be OK). Paying for a car without seeing it is a problem - there are escrow services that handle that kind of thing cleanly and safely - but you'll want to get LOTS of up-close photos from the seller - especially of places like the driver's doors where door dings can be - also of the seats and other places where minor damage might lurk. If you can find a garage close to the seller and have them do an independant examination of the car...make sure YOU pay for that! SteveBaker (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Is lotion necessary when using a tanning bed?

Is it necessary to use sun lotion when using a tanning bed? I don't mean the special "bronzers" that are referred to in the article, as they appear to be an optional extra with a special purpose of their own, but ordinary lotion to protect against burning, as is used on a beach. Or do people just go in without anything on their skin? Postlebury (talk) 13:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Follow the instructions you are given by the people running the salon. I would think putting sun cream on would defeat the object - it stops you tanning, not just burning. --Tango (talk) 00:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

November 18

internet joke origin

In various places I've seen a joke/troll where someone posts to a helpboard with "I accidentally the whole thing!" (sic) Does anyone know if this is a reference to a particular origin (like a TV sketch)? AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 00:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

So far it is a thinly posted wannabe internet meme [32] but I'm sure this posting will help spread it. It would need to be far funnier to qualify as a joke. Edison (talk) 01:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not even original but just a re-take of the old Alka-Seltzer ad, "I can't believe I ate the whole thing!"? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 04:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Dramatica has a surprisingly useful explanation. Of course it is forbidden to link to it, but search for "I accidentally X". Adam Bishop (talk) 08:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

And suddenly I understand the perspective of authoritarian dictators who suppress freedom of speech :(. The reason we don't allow direct links to encyclopedia drammatica articles is because it would ruin our little project, wikipedia. Kind of like the reason China doesn't allow you to talk about what happened at Tiananman square. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.75.250 (talk) 18:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's more to do with the amount of trolling that occurred with ED links. Certainly a lot of the articles are very useful and informative for this kind of thing, though - they're just not very encyclopedic in the classic sense of the word! ~ mazca ^t|c 18:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I would never have thought to look something up in Encyclopaedia Dramatica. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

United States National Debt

United States is in debt about $10,617,806,584,635.27. I know that printing out more money from the federal reserve and handing it out in our country would decrease the power of the dollar. But why don't we just print out more money and give it to countries who we are in debt to? (Japan ($580 billion), China ($390 billon) and the United Kingdom ($320 bilion) Would the same problem of decreasing bang for the buck occur. Or would it be a different problem because it is overseas? This would at least reduce our debt by 1 trillion 290 billion. What are the problems with doing this and is this even legal/ethical? Thanks for any serious answers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.126.152 (talk) 05:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Printing and internationally distributing a currency would have the same inflationary effect. More of a currency in circulation makes it relatively less valuable regardless of who holds it first. Inflation is like a tax on everyone else who holds money.NByz (talk) 06:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. This is an important principle of international markets, if you increase or decrease the price of a commodity anywhere, it affects the price everywhere else. In this case, the commodity is dollars. For another example, look at oil. The argument has been made that the US should drill more wells to lower US energy prices. However, since that oil goes on the international market, it would lower oil prices in China just as much as the US. StuRat (talk) 06:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Think of it in terms of demand and supply. If the supply of something (in this case US dollars) increases with the demand being unchanged, the value of the thing decreases. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 06:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Note as well that a large campaign to print money to get out of debt would likely depress the value of the U.S. dollar much further than simple dilution would predict. Currently, the U.S. dollar is widely seen, accepted, and employed as a reserve currency — a reliable store of value backed by a large, stable economy and a sound financial system.

Attempting to print its way out of debt would lead to a worldwide loss of confidence in the soundness of the U.S.' dollar, a flight to better-managed currencies like the euro, and a plummeting value of the U.S. dollar on international markets. Countries that have been actively propping up the value of the U.S. dollar (especially China and other Asian markets, who wish to see their export goods remain affordable to U.S. purchasers) would likely cease those activities, not wishing to see their investment squandered. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Which would reduce the extent to which people with to lend the US money, which would increase the cost of borrowing for the US, which would end up with them having more debt and printing more money and they would rapidly spiral into hyperinflation. --Tango (talk) 15:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

primates

it's common in statistics in both human and primates ,,,the clue is that it has to do with their limbs ..what's the answer..if anyone knows the answer please help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.24.99.211 (talk) 06:17, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thumbs? 81.187.153.189 (talk) 07:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Digits? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 09:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Left handedness? --Sean 13:41, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Percentage of population that have solved the P vs. NP problem? 83.250.202.208 (talk) 21:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

They walk upright...sometimes? Adam Bishop (talk) 21:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Short fingers?

I want to learn a musical instrument just for the fun of it but my friend says my fingers are probably too small to play the piano or guitar. My index finger is about 6.5cm long (2.5"), my middle finger is 7cm (2.8") and my thumb is about 5.5cm (2.25"). I know having long fingers helps a lot with playing instruments but are short fingers really an impediment? --Candy-Panda (talk) 07:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe keyboard things require a wideish span between pinkie finger tip and thumb tip. Plenty of instruments may not (woodwind, percussion, brass). There's always the theremin among other things. I remember something about a musician who tried stretching their hands mechanically and ended up wrecking them, but can't think of the name. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

My fingers are only about 1 - 2 mm longer than yours but I play the guitar without too much difficulty in that respect. The most I can stretch my fingers is from the 5th fret with my index to the 10th fret with my pinky but I haven't been hindered by my short fingers yet. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have stubby fingers but I can play guitar well enough. You might not be able to play songs by people with long fingers, but you don't need long fingers to form all the basic chords. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The harmonica requires no great length of fingers. --Psud (talk) 09:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Alicia de Larrocha has tiny hands. Maybe she struggled with some of Rachmaninov's compositions (whose handspan was legendary), but it certainly didn't stop her from becoming an exquisite pianist. Michel Petrucciani, one of the greatest European jazz pianists ever, had to overcome all sorts of difficulties (though he never perceived them as such, and though, to be fair, his hands look normal-sized on pictures). Django Reinhardt came up with new fingerings, and continued to swing hard on his guitar, even after two of his left hand's fingers were paralyzed in a fire accident. There are plenty of examples. I recommend learning the instrument that appeals most to you, not the one that best fits your physical measurements. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Scriabin, who wrote the greatest piano music in history, had very small hands with a span of barely a ninth. That meant that he was unable to perform some of his own music, but from the accounts of people who heard him play and the piano roll recordings that exist, it's safe to say what he could play he played brilliantly. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 11:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Alexander Scriabin, who wrote the greatest piano music in history - hmmm, I think that's slightly debatable. Let's just say he wrote some great music. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd second the guitar. I have very short, stubby fingers, and there are a few weird chords I have to work around (like, say, E2) but mostly you can work out most of the basic chords. The tuning of a guitar means that you can play 2 full octaves in a 5-fret space, even for my short fat fingers. You could also look into smaller stringed instruments, like Ukulele or Mandolin. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Playing keyboard instruments used to require long reach - but many modern electronic keyboards have keys that are considerably smaller than piano keys. It's just a matter of finding the right instrument. Also - how about a trombone - those things should be easy on the fingers! SteveBaker (talk) 13:59, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I 2nd the idea of getting an electronic keyboard. You can turn the disadvantage into an advantage by getting a smaller, less expensive keyboard. In particular, I'd expect models made in Asia (Yamaha, for example) would be designed for those with shorter fingers. If they are still too big, try a version designed for children. They may be the cheapest yet. StuRat (talk) 17:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore - with the ubiquity of the MIDI interface, you can take a relatively cheap keyboard who'se "feel" and spacing happen to suit you - and hook it up to an industrial-strength synthesiser bank full of hideously expensive professional gear. SteveBaker (talk) 19:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well... I think your just fine! My mom can play both and her finger hights are the same! -Warriorscourge (talk) 19:11, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

British ads: what do they mean?

If an ad for a room says "English speaking", do they mean "native speakers of English" or "fluent speakers of English"?

In an ad for a job, what is considered an "honours degree" (if you have a foreign degree)? Is that your first degree or only a degree with good grades? 80.58.205.37 (talk) 12:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

For the first question, 'English speaking' certainly does not mean 'native speakers of English'. It could mean 'fluent speakers' but more probably means 'speaks enough to get by'. As for your second question, where is the job precisely? In English universities, and honours degree is simply a non-terrible (but still potentially pretty bad; not 'good grades' by any means) first degree, while in the Scottish system, an honours degree requires a fourth year of study. Algebraist 12:09, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. The job is in an institute for further education. The description said: "You will need a Honours degree in Social sciences, Health Studies or a related subject". 80.58.205.37 (talk) 12:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It's explained in British undergraduate degree classification, but if your degree is not from the UK it won't really apply, and you'll have to show if your qualifications are enough to be equivalent. The institute may be familiar with degrees frrom other countries and be able to give their opinion. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have read that article, but it has no reference to recognition of foreign degrees. --80.58.205.37 (talk) 13:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

An honours degree is a 3 or four year undergraduate degree with any grade above a bare pass (in a nutshell). Just rephrasing what Algebraist said really. AlmostReadytoFly is correct in saying that if you don't have a UK degree you are going to have to have a way to show your degree is equivalent. dougweller (talk) 13:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. That would be enough to be considered as job applicant. What about "English speaker"? Are these people, who are offering the room, some sort of Londoner rednecks? Or they just want to come well along with their potential roomies?--80.58.205.37 (talk) 13:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

When considering degrees from outside the UK - it'll make a HUGE difference where you come from. Almost any full degree from a "real" US university will work - but a "granted in recognition of your life experiences" piece of order-by-mail "degree" is worthless - somewhere between those limits will be the "DeVry" type of degree. On the other hand, if you are from a country with less well known institutions - then there might be some issue. The answer is to call them up and ask - I'm sure you'll get a quick answer. As for the 'room' ad - I'm sure they just want to make sure that you speak English well enough to be understood. There is no reason to require a perfect accent and impeccable grammar - they just want to be sure they can interact with you reasonably. (Unless of course these are evil racists trying to find a reason not to rent their room to people whom they don't deem suitable for reasons that would be illegal were they to spell them out in detail!)... SteveBaker (talk) 13:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In Canada, an honours degree is the four-year version of the basic undergraduate degree (i.e. Bachelor's), in contrast with the standard three-year program. Not to be confused in any way with graduating "with honours". I did the first and certainly didn't do the second... :-) Matt Deres (talk) 14:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Second oldest organization in the world

So, for completely inscrutable reasons, me and my mate were discussing what the oldest organization in the world was. Pretty quickly it became obvious that the Catholic Church wins, hands down. So, then, naturally, the question became: except for the Catholic Church, what's the oldest organization in the world? Is there one that even comes close? Any that crosses the millenium-mark?

(Organizations, for the purpose of this question, is loosely defined as some sort of centrally organized group of people who identify as part of it, with some sort of coherent structure. Like, "Islam" doesn't count, because it doesn't have a consistent structure or clearly defined leadership or hierarchy (unlike the Catholic church, which has a pope, with cardinals working for him, governing bishops, etc. etc. You can draw a chart, basically). It's just a bunch of people that believe in the same thing, not an organization per se. Also, no governments, royal lines of succession, semi-mythological organizations (I'm looking at you, Bavarian Illuminati!) or families. Think companies, clubs, sects, those sorts of things). 83.250.202.208 (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It may not qualify, given your restrictions, but China can be traced back to the Bronze age (at which time the RC church and the papacy were still a way off). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that doesn't count. Countries aren't really "organizations", are they? 83.250.202.208 (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that China counts - but then you'd have to count the dynasties separately, and few of them lasted more than four hundred years, if I recall correctly. Jørgen (talk) 19:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

You can make the answer come out to be "The Catholic Church" if you constrain the 'rules' enough - but your constraints are pretty arbitary. The jewish faith has been around a lot longer - they have pretty consistent sets of laws and some sort of hierarchy. Excluding nations is pretty arbitary since the Catholics behaved much like a nation for most of their existence. (The "Holy Roman Empire"?!) SteveBaker (talk) 19:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(PITA EC!) Hinayana Buddhism has a central belief in the words of the Buddha, who came 500 years before Christ. There may be many sects, but they all believe essentially the same thing, and I am sure you would be able to find a sect that goes right back to the Buddha himself, if you really looked.--ChokinBako (talk) 19:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

If we adhere to your rules (a bit loosely), I suggest that the "family" / "tribe" / "clan" far predates the RC Church. It would even predate our species and may not even have changed all that much from a pride of lions to the dysfunctional family of the Simpsons. It is, of course, not a "human made" cooperative entity, but neither is the RC Church, to believers. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The Holy Roman Empire wasn't a case of the Catholics behaving much like a nation. It was a case of a weird kind of monarchy pretending to be holy and Roman and an empire, none of which were true. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:50, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you guys are missing the point of the OP. There are certainly belief systems older than the Catholicism, but what about as an organizational structure? I think we get off task when we just name random stuff that is older than Catholicism, without focusing on the idea of an "organization". I would discount China because the modern China really bears no connection to the historical state as an "organization". If the oldest means "furthest continuous backwards from today", then modern China really only exists since the 1940's. No state in Europe is as old as the Catholic Church is either... And while families and tribes and clans are TYPES of organizational structures, this is about the specific organization, not merely the type of organization. Can we point to a tribe or clan with a coninuous unbroken organizational history dating as far back as the Catholic Church? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually the oldest organisation ever to exist is the roman kingdom/republic/empire. Rome was founded as a kingdom in ca. 800 BC, and the eastern half of the roman empire survived untill 1453 when it was conquered by the ottomans. That's over 2250 years. Hinduism can trace it roots back about 3,500 years, though that's not as organised as the catholic church or the romans were so I dunnno if it counts.--Patton123 20:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(EC with Jayron) Earlier answers aside, I think your answer of the Catholic Church is a perfectly reasonable condition. There's more to an organization than a common goal or belief system; you need some kind of consistent bureaucratic framework, IMO. The Jewish faith has obviously been around a great deal longer, but has there been a central, bureaucratic body that provided some kind administration or something? I'm genuinely asking, but I don't think that's so. My first thought for second place would be Japanese royalty, which has continued in unbroken succession for more than a thousand years (at least back to AD 270 (Emperor Ōjin) and possibly back to 660 BC (Emperor Jimmu)). Perhaps they deserve first after all. Matt Deres (talk) 20:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the history books of the bible the jews hae had some form of leader for msot of their history bar their time in egypt, between judges, kings and simple natural leaders.--Patton123 20:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, but countries (like the Roman Republic and the Roman and Byzantine Empires) are a different thing though! There's lost of countries that are dirt old (some version of "Sweden" has existed for at least 1900 years, and possibly way, way longer), but that's not the same thing. There's a bunch of land on Earth, it tends to get divied up and ruled by people, and when those people die, new people rule it instead. The borders grow and they shrink, but the nations themselves can live on for millenia without much effort. It's not the same thing. 83.250.202.208 (talk) 20:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

There has been a ruler in each occupied country I am familiar with, for as long as it has been continuously occupied. There have been numerous "regime changes." The history of the Roman Catholic Church is the history of the Papacy. Haven't there been similar externally imposed "regime changes " and internally imposed changes in the "form of government" in the papacy, so it is no more a "continuous organization" than the government of China was for longer periods? Symmachus in 502 took away the right of laymen to elect a Pope and restricted eligibility to higher clergy, a radical change in the form of government as dramatic as a change of dynasty in Egypt or China. In the 10th century the Pope was appointed by local Roman noble families, another drastic change equivalent to a change in the form of government in a country. In the 11th century Henry III took on himself the right to appoint the Pope, another change which should restart the clock. The clock should start again in the 14th century, when the Popes for 70 years did not reside in the see of which they were supposed to be Bishop, previously a definition of the Pope as Bishop of Rome, but in France. If the Roman Catholic Church's longevity is judged by the standards we would apply to Egypt or China, then it is 730 to 1406 1506 years old. Edison (talk) 21:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

In the Middle Ages when various different factions decided they could appoint their own popes, there was often more than one. The church has since legitimized some of them so it looks like there is an unbroken succession, but it was certainly not that clear at the time. "The Catholic Church" as we know it now really isn't any older than the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century, and you could probably argue it is less than 50 years old, after the Second Vatican Council. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh come on guys, it's the New World Order! -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 22:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it me?????????????

This year in June, I took my wife and my mother-in-law to Tenerife for 2 weeks in a wonderful hotel on a half-board basis. Yesterday, I contacted the Edinburgh based carrier for a quote for 2009 - same hotel - same weeks - same board basis - and discovered to my horror they have increased the pice by ----------40%. So I asked whether they were aware of the international credit crunch - the collapse of Excel and Zoom airlines - the British recession v Depression etc., etc. The operator thanked me for my call - and put the phone down. Today, I went shopping around all the competitors' branches and was SHOCKED to learn that all of their 2009 holidays had significantly increased in price over 2008. So - is it me??? Or are people spending their savings NOW as against waiting for them to collapse during some as yet unseen but feared crisis? 92.21.226.176 (talk) 21:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, as you said - collapse of airlines means less planes available to travel on means more demand means higher prices. Food costs have increased, fuel prices too. It all adds up. Add in soaring inflation rates... -mattbuck (Talk) 21:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

(editconflict) Despite current economic conditions, there are still many many people who have money to spend. A quick look at the article Tenerife suggests that it is a wonderful place for a vacation. (You were there - is it?)

I expect the chances are good to excellent that the tourist businesses of Tenerife know that they will still be able to attract guests, despite major rate hikes. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:28, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

And I'm informed that sterling has lost 25% of its value in the last few weeks. That sort of thing would tend to dent your ability to purchase a foreign holiday. I'm with the operator. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:29, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

You don't say, where you're from, or what currency the increase is in, but that could be a huge part of it. Imagine you're paying in pounds.

Let's assume that last year your vacation cost 1 pound and this year it cost 1.4 pounds.

That works out to 1.42euros then, 1.64euros now. That's only a 15% increase not a 40%.

(Assuming you bought the tickets on the 18th of November in each case. And assuming my math is right. )

APL (talk) 21:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the currency devaluation is likely to be the biggest chunk of this - but also, the strategy that a business takes when custom dips down is not NECESSARILY to drop prices. If their prices were already cut to the bone - then cutting them further means they're now losing money instead of making a profit. An alternative strategy is to put your prices UP on the grounds that loyal customers will come anyway - so the reduction in numbers of customers is outweighed by the profit per customer. This works especially well in service industries because they can shed a lot of unskilled workers and save money there too. So perhaps these people know their customers and have figured out that increasing their prices pushes their profits up - not down. SteveBaker (talk) 22:00, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

My biggest issue isn't with the resort's price but with your last sentence. What leads you to believe that A) people are spending their savings "NOW" just because a resort's price for 09 went up and B) the crisis is not "as yet unseen". Tell all the people who have lost their jobs and/or their homes in the last year that the crisis is unseen. Dismas|^(talk) 22:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)