Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus

---

Extensive prior discussions of Copernicus's nationality can be read under Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality.

---

Archives
Nationality discussions January 2004 – February 2006 February 2006 – March 2006 March 2006 – December 2006 January 2007 – September 2007 September 2007 – February 2008 March 2008 – April 2008

Proposed Solution

I recommend to follow the example of the Polish Wikipedia and remove the last section "Nationality and ethnicity" from the main Copernicus article and make it a separate article. As it stands now, this section is of little importance and detracts from the overall article about one of the great scientists of the world.

The rest of the article is all totally factual and based on documented facts. I find nothing that needs to be eliminated.

Will the Administrator eliminate this last section, then delete the tag from the head of the article and place a block to prevent further fruitless discussions, which will never be resolved to everybody's satisfaction?

I would like to remind everyone, that in the times under discussion, rulers (kings, princes, dukes, bishops) determined boundaries of states by force of arms and treated provinces as if they were personal property, passing them on to sons or giving them away as dowries. Nationality, as such, was of secondary importance. Most literature, especially scientific, was written in Latin. We have no way of knowing for sure what language was spoken by Copernicus. Certainly at the university, whether in Cracow or later Bologna, studies were in Latin. At home it is likely that a Germanic dialect was used as well as a Polish dialect (the latter being the language of the bulk of people residing in the regions of Torun and Cracow). Incidentally, today most Irish people speak English, but become very offended if someone calls them English!

The French Wikipedia handles the matter very well, IMHO. It states "...since the 19thC the nationality of Copernicus has become a subject of controversy. Today he is generally considered Polish, in part because of his place of birth and his origins. Nevertheless, nationality plays a secondary role and, in reality, Copernicus should be considered as being German and Polish at the same time."

Syrenab (talk) 15:12, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The Nationality section does not warrant a separate article; it does not warrant as much space as it has now. Further, because it directly affects the rest of the article (why a nationality is or is not stated for Copernicus), removing it to a separate article would be an impermissible WP:FORK. Even it were made a separate article, Wikipedia policy requires that the separate article be fairly summarized in the main Copernicus bio. Finally, admins do not dictate article content. Article content is decided by the consensus of editors who work on an article. Admins, when they act as such, enforce Wikipedia standards of behavior and policies, such as the policy that requires editing by consensus and not permitting an editor to remove a controversy tag until the controversy is resolved. Finell (Talk) 09:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

In accordance with your suggestion, I have revised the entire "Nationality" section. Hopefully this will take care of the matter, and the Tag may be removed from the beginning of the article.

However I still think that at least a partial block should be kept on this aryicle. I note that again yesterday "Polish" has been added to the first paragraph, and again reverted. What a waste of time for all concerned!!

Syrenab (talk) 23:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Requested references and sources have been added to the re-written Nationality and ethnicity and I believe that the Tag should be removed. Furthermore, all other sections of this article have had all POV matter removed, leaving onlky fully documented subject matter. Therefore I think that the Tag at the head of the article should also be removed.

Syrenab (talk) 16:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Many of the statements in the Nationality section are still unsourced and also controversial. Furthermore, a wikilink cannot be a source. A list of treaties is not sufficient to make a statement about what was happening where Copernicus lived when he lived there. Please see WP:CITE and WP:RS for guidance. Also, the Family section says (with a citation and quote) that Toruń was "in the Royal Prussia region of the Kingdom of Poland". The the Nationality section says (with no citation) that Copernicus "spent most of his life in the C", which seems to contradict statement in the Family section. Finell (Talk) 19:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I am only trying to comply with your request for sources. OK, I'll find another list of examples to show that boundaries of provinces changed frequently as a result of various events.

Wikipedia's policy against original research prohibits us from drawing a new conclusion from raw data. The article cannot say, in substance, that nationality was unimportant in Copernicus's day because of rapidly changing borders without citation of a reliable source who reaches that conclusion based upon that reason. By the way, there is no shortage of sources who identify Copernicus's nationality and the nationality of others Europeans of the same era, so the conclusion itself is dubious. The only reason this article does not identify Copernicus's nationality is because of edit warring. Finell (Talk) 22:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand your objection - "Royal Prussia region of the Kingdom of Poland" is exactly the same as "the Polish province of Royal Prussia". just using different words, so you are nit-picking.

I am not trying to nit-pick. The first statement says Royal Prussia is part of Poland. The second statement says Poland is part of Royal Prussia. The two statements say the opposite. Which was the whole and which was the part? Finell (Talk) 22:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

What else is controversial? Please tell me specifically and I'll try to correct or find sources.

It is all controversial, given this article's edit history. I will put tags in the section where citations are needed and remove citations that do not support the statements made. Finell (Talk) 22:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Syrenab (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, Finell, I had not noticed that someone else had inserted the "of" between Province and Royal Prussia, after I had written this sentence. I have corrected that. Where available, I have inserted references for EVERY sentence as you requested (including reverting non-wiki references that you had DELETED) and deleted all other sentences for which I don't have available references. BTW, I am surprised that you seem to think that it is impermissible to write a single sentence without providing a reference. I don't find this to be the requirement in any other article in Wikipedia, English, German, French or Polish.

That's it for me. I tried, in good faith, to provide a resolution of this matter in a simple NPOV manner. I have no more time to spend on this subject.

Syrenab (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

... and yet another good faith editor is driven away from this article, while I had chosen to wait and see how things will be going without me interfering. Same business as usual, the relentless COPERNICUS was POLISH pushing of course. Apart from that, deleting a 9 Kilobytes of text and sources, then sticking 10 fact tags into the carcass did not help either, I have to say.

The proposal made at the beginning of this section is not new, yet IMHO still good, but it was rejected several times by the "community". English and German wikipedias once had separate articles to cover the pesky nationality issue (there's still Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus/Nationality), but both Copernicus' nationality (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Copernicus' nationality in Nov 2005, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Copernicus' nationality (second nomination) in Jan 2006) and de:Nationalität von Kopernikus (in March 2006) were deleted two years ago. German content was later retrieved and stored at de:Benutzer:Plehn/Nationalität von Kopernikus. Polish Wiki has pl:Kwestia narodowości Kopernika since 2005. While maybe his nationality alone itself does not merit an article, I'd say that the 200+ year old dispute outside of wikipedia, and now also several years within, is old and notable enough to be wrapped up in an article (again). Wikipedia has dozen of articles covering a controversy (like the eye-popping Super Bowl XXXVIII halftime show controversy, but does not yet cover the (astronomical) Copernican controversy which has 383 Google books hits. Wikipedia really has it priorities sorted well here - not! Google Books have also over 40 hits for Copernicus controversy nationality which should be enough to source the fact that his nationality was and is controversial. Guess when this was written: "Germany is not perhaps the most suitable occasion for reviving an ancient controversy as to his nationality, and though Copernicus was born at Thorn, the troubled history of that corner of Europe makes it difficult to speak with any certainty about his ancestry". It was in the very first year of Nature (journal), in 1869. [1] [2]. BTW, one has to point out that the author, Sir Joseph Norman Lockyer, an English scientist and astronomer, speaks about Germany in 1869 even though some Wiki editors insist there was no such thing as a Germany before 1871. -- Matthead  Discuß   23:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Would an admin please restore the last uncompromised version, with 54,245 bytes (compared to the current 46k fragment), and then full protect it to keep our dear COPERNICUS was POLISH friend away? Thanks in advance! -- Matthead  Discuß   23:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that all the stuff about TV satellites, banknotes and King Ludwig I of Bavaria is particularly contributory to this question. Nihil novi (talk) 05:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

But mentioning Poland or Polish about 18 times, including "Polish 10-złoty coins", is particularly contributory to this question? Compared to this are 3 mentions of German, and 10 of Prussia(n) (all in the main article, without the sections Notes and below). The political connection of Prussia to the Polish King is totally overrepresented, e.g. compared to the more complicated life of Leonardo da Vinci. His places of birth and death are given as "present-day Italy" and "present-day France", while for Copernicus, the contemporary names Thorn and Frauenburg are only in parentheses, and the modern day Polish names, unfamiliar to Copernicus, are highlighted. To become neutral, the frequent mentioning of Polish/Poland and the gratuitous name dropping of present day city names in Polish needs to be cut down. Why not pointing out, for a change, that he was born in Thorn, studied in Cracow, lived in Allenstein, Heilsberg, Mehlsack, Frauenburg, and communicated in German with the Duke of Prussia in Königsberg, the former Teutonic Knight and "enemy"? Polish POV and vanity has skewed this article for too long. For example, the info box has 10(!) entries in Fields, among them military commander, which is ridiculous, not only compared to da Vinci. The Jagiellonian University is listed - it was called Cracow Academy for centuries to come, and he did not earn any degree there anyway. Academically of low significance, but highly important to Polish national pride. -- Matthead  Discuß   06:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

You will please note that the banknote that I referred to was a Polish banknote. And I think that not only Polish historians will differ with your assessment of Kraków University, the second oldest university in Central Europe and one of the oldest in Europe, and founded before any German university, as "academically of low significance." Nevertheless, many Polish scholars have also studied abroad, in Copernicus' time and since, often at German universities (though Copernicus himself did not study at a German university).

Copernicus also did not receive a degree at Bologna or Padua Universities. He obtained his doctorate (in law) at Ferrara. Nihil novi (talk) 07:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

No degree in Bologna? Magister, 18 June 1499. It was at Bologna were he learned most of law and astronomy, and where he in 1496 was signed in as Dominus Nicolaus Kopperlingk de Thorn in the German natio (a fact that keeps dropping out of the article). He did not graduate after his additional studies of medicine in Padua (old reports [3] about a doctorate there were, like the Polish natio, based on the Papadopoli tall tale), but then practised medicine for the benefit of his compatriots, which is arguably better than getting maltreated by someone with M.D.. And apparently, Marcin Kromer described him in 1581 as artiae et medicinae doctor anyway. To repeat it again: compared to his Italian studies, the early ones in Cracow were "academically of low significance." Thanks for proving my point regarding Polish pride, though. I'm not going to discuss the Austrian history of the Cracow Academy (Universität Krakau), the latter name gratuitously added with greetings to our Krolewiec-disseminating friend. -- Matthead  Discuß   17:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Your source concerning Copernicus' alleged Bologna "Magister, 18 June 1499" refers to "a document executed on June 18, 1499, by the... Bolognese notary, Girolamo Belvisi, in the presence of Copernicus as a witness. In this... document the notary called Copernicus magister..." That is not incontrovertible evidence of the existence of a master's degree. But if you do find actual documentation of a master's degree, please add it to the Wikipedia article.

Angus Armitage writes in The World of Copernicus (p. 63) that at Bologna the law students "were grouped into 'nations' roughly corresponding to the parts of Europe from which they hailed. Thus Copernicus was enrolled in the German 'nation'..." Copernicus' enrollment in the German "nation" documents his geographical, not necessarily his ethnic much less his national, origin.

Marcin Kromer's 1581 Frombork Cathedral memorial tablet, calling Copernicus "artiae et medicinae doctor," again is not itself an actual medical degree. If Copernicus held a doctorate in something other than law, please provide the documentation.

You wrote earlier disparagingly of Kraków University having originally been called the "Kraków Academy." An institution that trains physicians in the United States today is called a "Medical School." In Poland the corresponding institution is rendered into English as "Medical University." Does that make the American institution inferior to the Polish one?

And what has "Polish pride" to do with all this? Nihil novi (talk) 19:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Matthead, why do you keeping mentioning "German natio" when it was already explained to you that ALL POLISH STUDENTS at that time signed into the German natio - there was NO POLISH NATIO in Bologna at that time. Natio was not a declaration of nationality but a student corporation. Szopen (talk) 07:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE BLOCK FIRST SECTION

This has become completely ridiculous. Will the administrators place a total block on the first section of this article. Toiday alone there have been two revisions and two reverts. What a waste of everybody's time!

Syrenab (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. And to the reality of the 200+ year old dispute. Maybe you should have checked the article's history and its talk to be warned beforehand? -- Matthead  Discuß   10:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Things I wanted to add, need to discuss first

Hi everyone. I just changed something but was reverted by Ckatz with the comment "should be discussed, as well as reworded to avoid analysis" (see [4] for reference). So, my change in section 14 was as follows:

"Both the nationality and ethnicity of Copernicus are disputed and has been described in various publications as Polish, German, or both. However, given that he was born, lived, and died in the now historical region of Prussia and described himself as Prussian he can be safely called a Prussian (in this sense only, not confusing it with the later only partly related Kingdom of Prussia), thus avoiding the dispute because Prussian at that time was distinct from both Polish and German. The part of Prussia he lived in was at first a Polish protectorate and later incorporated into the Kingdom of Poland."

Any objections regarding factuality? Any thoughts how to formulate it better? Der Eberswalder (talk) 19:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Without addressing for now the substance of what you wrote, the writing is not clear, grammatical English. Also, every statement in the passage will require citation of WP:RSs. The one citation that you do supply is not sufficient; it does not indentify the author of the statement that supports the proposition that Copernicus described himself as Prussian, and the results of a Google search is not an adequate URL for a publication. A fragment from a Google search is not a substitute for real library research. Lastly, the thrust of the statement is not WP:NPOV because it does not accurately reflect the consensus of reliable sources on the subject of Copernicus's nationality. Finell (Talk) 23:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we definitely need reliable sources. What's wrong with the English? Der Eberswalder (talk) 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, Der Eberswalder, but I do not have the time now to do a rewrite, and a detailed critique would take even longer. I mean no personal offense, and I do not even know whether English is your primary language. In my opinion, the writing is below Wikipedia's standards. Perhaps you know someone who is known as a good writer editor. Or you could ask for assistance from the WikiProject League of Copyeditors. I am limiting my Wikipedia participation to a minimum now because of work pressure. Again, I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful now. Finell (Talk) 12:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The part of Prussia where he lived was not a Polish protectorate but a part of the Polish kingdom with significant autonomy. Szopen (talk) 07:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, protectorate is not the correct term for this. But my point is, in the time frame between 1466 and 1569 the relationship Poland - Royal Prussia was like the relationship England - Scotland between 1603 and 1707. One was not a part of the other but both had the same monarch (personal union), which only later developed into a real union with one state. Der Eberswalder (talk) 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

NO, that's wrong. Prussia was not in personal union with Poland, Prussia was PART, a province, of Polish kingdom. The treaties are very specific about that: Prussia is "INCORPORATED" into Poland. E.g. Every Polish king authomatically took over the Prussia (and all titles which were tied with that possession). Polish king issued his laws as Polish king. Prussians had a seats for them in Polish parliament (they didn't took it, but as it was put to them by Siennicki during negotations before UoL: you had the rights, who cares you didn't made use of them). In contrast, in Lithuania, which was in personal union, king issued rights as Lithuanian duke, and treaties were very specific about Lithuania is not part of Polish kingdom.

The view about "personal union" is typical German POV. Note that some POlish kings did in times try to treat Royal Prussia as if it was in personal union with Poland, which caused constant complains from Polish parliament (again, Siennicki: "we are most disturbed by your Majesty understanding that your Majesty keeps it by some different right") Szopen (talk) 07:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

So some Polish kings had typical German POV and typical German POV agreed with some Polish kings? Sigismund II Augustus (1520 — 1572) was Dei gratia rex Poloniae, magnus dux Lithuaniae, nec non terrarum Cracoviae, Sandomiriae, Siradiae, Lanciciae, Cuiaviae, Kijoviae, Russiae, Woliniae, Prussiae, Masoviae, Podlachiae, Culmensis, Elbingensis, Pomeraniae, Samogitiae, Livoniae etc. dominus et haeres. In regard to Copernicus, by the deal with Prussian Confederation cities and gentry, Casimir and later kings were also styled "Culmensis dominus et haeres", Lord and heir of Culmerland, including NCs place of birth, Thorn. Same applies for Elbing, and the parts of Pomerania and Prussia. Why are these places mentioned separately, alongside with Polonia, and not simply covered by Polonia, or at least by neighboring areas like Masovia? For example, the Duchy of Masovia "was not incorporated into the Polish kingdom until the death of the last regional duke, Janusz III Mazowiecki, in 1526" when Copernicus was already over 50 years old. Later kings were called Dei gratia rex Poloniae, magnus dvx Lituaniae, Russiae, Prussiae, .... Were Lithuania, and the claimed parts of Russia and Prussia parts of Poland, or did they have the same ruler for some time? -- Matthead  Discuß   19:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

You seems no to understand that titles are just titles. Especially the example you provided is quite silly: Sigismund Augustus titles mentions "Cracoviae", "Sandomiriae", "Cuiaviae" e.g. simply provinces. Titles of others according to you would prove that Poland was in personal union with Russia ("magnus dux Russiae"). As I wrote, those are just titles. Treaty clearly stated that Prussia is incorporated into Poland. This was also the opinion of contemporaries, e.g. Dlugosz clearly writes that he is happy that "Pomorze returned to Poland". Prussia was part of Poland, not in personal union with Poland.

To prove me wrong quote one document in which any POlish kng would issue laws etc as duke of Prussia, not as king of Poland. In Lithuania he was issuing laws as great duke of Lithuania. In Poland as king of Poland. And in Prussia... ? Szopen (talk) 06:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You forget that the Prussians viewed themselves not as Poles, just like people from Wales don't see themselves as English. From the Polish viewpoint it was a province, from the local Prussian's viewpoint it was a personal union. The special status of Royal Prussia (not only a province) was expressed in the Union of Lublin: Incidentally, at that time the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was really a union of three nations [four, if one counted the Ruthenians]. It is often forgotten that during the Seym debates in 1569 a Union with Royal Prussia was also signed. [5] Der Eberswalder (talk) 21:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not forget that (that elites of Prussia saw themselves as "Prussian" - it's hard to say how widespread this view was, and whether it really contrasted with being German or Polish (later people used phrase gente something, natione something)). Nevertheless, it was not personal union in legal sense. Polish king ruled Prussia as Polish king, because of his rights as Polish king, not because he was Prussian duke. Whoever was elected Polish king ruled Prussia. As for "personal union" view my impression is that it started to be popular in XVIII century with Prussian historian called L-something (Lengnich? Leignich? can't remember) who was trying to prove that Prussia before UoL was separate country tied with Poland only by person of king.

In other words, Lithuanians owed loyalty to Great Duke of Lithuania. Prussians owed loyalty to king of Poland. Szopen (talk) 15:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

And how many Polish speaking persons owed loyalty to the Tsar of Russia, the Emperor of Austria, the King of Prussia, all through the 19th century and even in the first part of the 20th century? As pointed out many times, picking a random figure from the list of Poles very likely will raise eyebrows: Kazimierz Fajans was born in Russian Empire and spent most of the first three decades of his academic life at German universities, co-discovering the element Protactinium, before the Nazis drove him out to the US. It is save to say he never had citizenship of Poland, never studied at the Jagiellonian Univ in Cracow, never was local to a Polish leader, never defended a Polish city - which are the criteria cited for Copernicus' claimed Polishness. The amount of Polish POV on Wikipedia is unbelievable. Just look at Gabriel Fahrenheit, another victim of relentless POV pushers. -- Matthead  Discuß   17:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't get your point. I wasn't here arguing whether Copernicus was Polish or German, since I support Eberswalder in that he was Prussian. I was arguing here that Royal Prussia was not in personal union with Poland, but it was autonomous province of the kingdom. As a side note, Gabriel Fahrenheit is good example. According to: [6] he signed himself at least on one occasion as "Fahrenheit Polonus" (I will contact the author to find out from where he has this information).Szopen (talk) 07:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

WHY, why do all of you insist on arguing at (not with) each other about this issue? Neither side will persuade the other, and the rest of us don't want to be bothered by this nationalist rancor. The participants are not ignorant of the other side's arguments and evidnece. They reach the opposite conclusion (from whichever side you are agruing) by assigning different weights to the relative importance of established facts, and by choosing to reach a differnt conclusion about facts that cannot be established with certainty (because of conflicting evidence or lack of reliable evidence). The argument between uou is hopeless and a waste of your time, and for the reast of us is an unwelcome distraction and a waste of Wikipedia's resources (among other things). JUST STOP, or at least take it elsewhere. How about a Yahoo! Group devoted to arguing about the history of Northern Europe, and who conquered whom, from the beginning of time through WWII? Finell (Talk) 18:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The "who conquered whom" is not a thing of the past, it's going on, right here on Wikipedia, with articles and talk pages getting conquered and occupied to promote the national pride of some. It has started years ago before you registered your account, Finell, and you will not stop it by yelling. -- Matthead  Discuß   19:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Finell is right. This is a waste of time. Nihil novi (talk) 09:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC) Please notice the definition of nationality in wikipedia,first two lines. There in no doubt that Copernicus born after 1454 in Thorn was subject of Polish Crown and therefore Polish national.We can argue about his ancestry or ethnicity and this part is unclear. His father was born in Cracow or near Cracow and arrived in Thorn around 1458 after it became part of Polish Crown regardless of level of its authonomy in relation to Poland. His father was at all times polish subject and national and at birth Copernicus his father and mother were polish subjects and polish nationals of whatever ancestry,that's a fact. In whatever capacity he took part in defence of Allenstein,which side he stood for is clear. What we feel who we are is a different story... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkkoz (talk • contribs) 05:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

STOP these people

Why can't the administrators put a BLOCK on this article and stop the endless nonsensical attacks, mostly by unregistered users.

BTW, I see that the article "Marco Polo"has the same problem - Croatians, it seems, insisting that Marco polo was Croatian, not a Venetian!!

This kind of behavior is making Wikipedia look ridiculous, instead off the important educational site it is supposed to be.

Syrenab (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Relax and enjoy. It hardly will change anyway, having been like that for quite while. -- Matthead  Discuß   01:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Additional background information

I found an interesting source which also sheds some light into the surrounding situation of Copernicus and could help to solve the dispute:
East Central Europe in the Middle Ages 1000-1500, Jean W. Sedlar, University of Washington Press, 1994, quote from pages 281-282 [7]

Royal Prussia enjoyed considerable autonomy after it renounced the government of the Teutonic Knights in 1454 and became a province of Poland. Its leading men insisted, and the king conceded, that only natives of Prussia could hold office there (i.e., no more foreign knights). The Prussians themselves viewed their territory as united to Poland only through the king's person. They did not wish to participate in Polish campaigns or pay the same taxes as other Polish subjects. Only unwillingly did they join in meetings of the Polish royal Council, since participation would require them to execute its decisions. Social and ethnic differences reinforced this separateness. The towns of Royal Prussia possessed far greater economic strength than their counterparts in Poland and played a correspondingly greater political role. Representatives of the towns sat in the Diet of Royal Prussia and in the ruling Prussian Council. The same coinage circulated in both parts of Prussia, differing in weight and standard from that of Poland.

The Prussians chose the Polish king because he was less of an annoyance than the Teutonic Knights. But they still considered themselves as Prussians, not as Poles (and not as Germans).

Using the same standard:
- Marie Curie's nationality was not Russian, even though she was a subject of the Russian tsar and her native country (Poland) has been made a province of Russia
- Copernicus's nationality was not Polish, even though he was a subject of the Polish king and his native country (Prussia) has been made a province of Poland

See? To call Nicolaus Copernicus a Polish astronomer would be the same as calling Marie Curie a Russian chemist.
Both is kind of right, and both is inaccurate.

We could use the same formulation for both the Curie and Copernicus articles. First the quote from the Curie article:
Marie Curie was a physicist and chemist of Polish upbringing and, subsequently, French citizenship. She was a pioneer in the field of radioactivity, the first and only person honored with Nobel Prizes in two different sciences, and the first female professor at the University of Paris. ... While an actively loyal French citizen, she never lost her sense of Polish identity.

Used in this article it would be:
Nicolaus Copernicus was the first astronomer to formulate a scientifically based heliocentric cosmology that displaced the Earth from the center of the universe. ... While an actively loyal Polish citizen, he never lost his sense of Prussian identity.

Sounds good enough? Der Eberswalder (talk) 22:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. Maria Skłodowska was not a happy, faithful subject of the Russian tsar. She did not choose a Russian university. She did not defend Russian castles and towns. She did not spend most of her life in Russia. Copernicus did not attend floating, illegal Prussian university, hiding from reprisals from Polish authorities. And so on. The analogy is poor. The facts are these:

• Major encyclopedias all over the world consider him Polish.
• "Prussian" in the minds of many (and not only laymen) means German.
  

Space Cadet (talk) 00:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

No double standards, please. Either choose to classify a person by citizenship based on place of birth, or by ethnicity as e.g. manifested by the language of writings. Either a Royal Prussian Polish Copernicus and a Congress Polish Russian Curie, or a Middle Low German Latin Copernicus and a Polish French Curie. Besides, Copernicus has chosen three Italian universities which are more significant than his freshman Cracow episode, he defended the local Prussian city of Allenstein, and published in Germany with the help of (fellow) Germans, while Madame Curie did not bother to move to Poland in the 1920s to become a happy, faithful subject of Pilsudski and Sanjacia. Regarding major printed encyclopedias: some still have remnants of the days of old when anti-German propaganda was en vogue, but that will erode sooner or later as scholars do not bother to assign a modern nationality to Copernicus: neither German, nor Polish. See once again what the otherwise beloved God's Playground of Norman Davies says: Nicholas Copernicus (1473—1543). Born in Thorn, in Royal Prussia, he spent the greater part of his career .. in Frauenberg. Mr. Davies seems not to be used well to German names and should add Frauenburg to his spell checker, but he knows that the German names are appropriate for the lifetime of Copernicus (and centuries before and after), not 20th century Torun or Frombork. The city names have to be fixed in this article, BTW. Polish POV has been disseminated too far in the past, and will be reduced. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not set such standards, whether single, double, or otherwise. Wikipedia does not set a standard for determining a person's nationality or ethnicity, nor for the value of the person's work, nor for any of the other facts or opinions that are appropriate to an encyclopedic treatment of the subject. To adopt our own standards (to use your term) for such matters would be to engage in original research, which Wikipedia's core policies forbid us to do. Instead, what Wikipedia does, or is supposed to do, is to present fairly the conclusions of the most reliable sources that are available to us now, on a subject's nationality, and on all encyclopedic content about the subject. Where there is substantial disagreement among reliable sources, on a subject's nationality or on anything else, Wikipedia presents the differing views of the reliable sources in fair proportion to the number and reliability of the sources that hold the the differing views. That has not happened in this Wikipedia article, and in some others, because of the relentless pushing of a nationalistic POV by a tiny but persistent minority. That, in turn, diminishes the reliability of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, and subjects Wikipedia to well-deserved criticism. Finell (Talk) 16:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Look at the reality of Wikipedia, Finell. Nationalities are stated on Wikipedia, and often very different standards are applied to determine this nationality. As pointed out many times, please look at the list of Poles and check how many prominent figures are claimed as Poles in highly doubtful fashion. I've pointed out many examples already. The List_of_Poles#Astronomy not only includes "Jan Heweliusz" (Johannes Hevelius) and "Mikołaj Kopernik" (Nicolaus Copernicus), but also figures like Stanisław Lubieniecki who while in exile in Germany tried to make money by illustrating accounts of comet sightings, which is as much astronomy as filming Star Wars. Alexius Sylvius Polonus was "a little-known maker of astronomical instruments" even from Polish POV. And so on, vanity and wishful thinking galore. One Polish user even boldy added himself [8]. In contrast, look how many figures in the Category:People from Gdańsk are claimed by edit warriors as Polish even when they lived in Danzig(!) and were clearly part of German culture. Look at Johannes Daniel Falk, a stub with two lines, but endless editwarring to squeeze in the vital information "(Gdańsk) in the Polish province of Royal Prussia". Never mind the guy spent his life in Germany (within modern day borders), a fact of low importance according to de facto Wikipedia standards. Wikipedia's lopsidedness is appalling "because of the relentless pushing of a nationalistic POV by a tiny but persistent minority", as you correctly state. But you do not state to which side the persistent minority is pushing, nor who the pushers are. -- Matthead  Discuß   19:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

"In contrast, look how many figures in the Category:People from Gdańsk are claimed by edit warriors as Polish " Since Gdańsk was Polish city why wouldn't they be Poles ? As to 'German culture'-Germany was created in XIX century, before that they were local cultures, sadly destroyed by the Prussian state like many other cultures that fell victim to it--Molobo (talk) 02:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Karin Friedrich herself in a personal e-mail strongly urged me to call Copernicus a PRUSSIAN astronomer. She also said it's a clear case. I don't know - what do you guys think? I know Szopen would be happy. Space Cadet (talk) 14:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Better to leave Copernicus stateless, as he is now, than make him a Prussian, which would confuse 99.99% of the English-language Wikipedia's readers. Nihil novi (talk) 03:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

We've been through all this before. Regardless of what the term meant a half-millennium ago, today Prussian means German, and that is how the statement would be understood by the readers English Wikipedia today. By the way, to which Karin Friedrich does Space Cadet refer? The link is to a disambiguation page. And how is her unpublished opinion relevant to content on Wikipedia? And did she really "strongly urge" Space Cadet impose her will on Wikipedia's article, overriding the consensus of Wikipedians? Has she strongly urged Encyclopaedia Britannica or Encyclopedia Americana to do the same? If she has, they didn't buy it. Finell (Talk) 07:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. And I was equally surprised at what Dr Friedrich wrote me. I agree that most English speakers identify Prussian with German. Let's leave him stateless then. I just thought it would be interesting to find out what she thinks about the issue, that's all. Space Cadet (talk) 14:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Citations needed

In the Nationality and ethnicity section, many Citations needed tags have remained unfulfilled for several months. Unless sufficiently reliable sources are cited that adequately support the statements to which these tags are attached within one additional week, I intend to remove the statements. Today, I hung several new Citations needed tags. Unless adequate supporting source citations are supplied within three weeks, I intend to remove the statements to which these new tags are attached. Although it is permissible to remove unsourced material without warning, especially where the statements are contentious or subject to dispute, I am giving this warning out of deference to the many Wikipedians of opposing views who have contributed to this section of the article. Finell (Talk) 17:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

It has been nine weeks—three times as long. I have deleted the contentious unsourced statements. Nihil novi (talk) 10:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Astrology again

Some time ago I asked for the claim that Copernicus had studied astrology to be supported by citation to a reliable source. On reading the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's entry on Copernicus, I find it says "there is no doubt that Copernicus studied astrology while at the University of Padua", so this would appear to fill the bill. However, the entry also agrees with the other scholarly sources I cited that, as far as we can tell from the available documentary evidence, Copernicus apparently never practised astrology or expressed any interest in it. I will accordingly add a couple of sentences to that effect. —David Wilson (talk · cont) 13:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

External links to Antikythera site

Why does the external links section include two links to a site about the Antikythera machine? This is an article about Copernicus, and I don't see the relevance. I hope that someone who knows the history of this article will consider either removing the links or moving them to the Antikythera article where they will be on topic. Thanks for reading this. 129.15.127.243 (talk) 16:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Plagarism by Copernicus

I read an article written by the Dean of Astronomy at the University of Toronto a few years ago in which he stated that the mathematical models/theorems that Copernicus used to explain planetary motion was plagarized by him from the works of Arab and / or Persian astronomers of the 12th / 13th centuries. That knowledge had been destroyed by the Mongols in the Arab Islamic world but had survived Moorish rule in Spain, from where it passed on to the rest of Western Europe over the next couple of centuries. This fact of plagarism by Copernicus is now well documented and accepted in the scientific community but is not widely known.

I had read another book, written by the one time editor of OMNI magazine on the history of Mathematics and Science in the non-western world in which that author had also discussed this plagarism in detail and also explained what theorem(s) were plagarized. I cannot recall the name of that book at this time but will update this page once I can recall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.159.64.10 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Arabic/Islamic Science and the Renaissance Science in Italy (By George Saliba - Princeton University)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.159.64.10 (talk) 17:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I have replaced the copied & pasted text in the previous post with a link to the web page from which it was apparently copied. Please do not copy and paste entire web pages like this—it is a serious violation of copyright. I note also that Saliba's article makes no accusation of plagiarism against Copernicus.

—David Wilson (talk · cont) 13:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Burnt at the stake?

I have a question, wasn't Copernicus burnt at the stake for his views on Heliocentrism? Why did I think that he was; but he actually died in bed on May 24, 1543. Signed: Paul Bannon 71.112.231.214 (talk) 10:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

No, he was not. I have no idea why you thought that he was. Finell (Talk) 21:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, Girolamo Savonarola was burned in 1498 while Copernicus was in Italy, which may have taught him to be careful. Giordano Bruno supported Copernican cosmology, but that was not a reason why he was burned in 1600. Enough to confuse some, maybe. -- Matthead  Discuß   22:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Bannon, stop asking idiotic questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 08:58, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Because he was living in Poland. There was no such behavior, almost at all, although Poland was a catholic kingdom --Matrek (talk) 23:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

According to Witch trials in Early Modern Europe, a four-digit number of executions took place there, and Poland also has the dubious honor of being the last European county to cease the practice. -- Matthead  Discuß   00:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, "no recorded", but "estimated, 1500" ! What's a basis of this estimation? Someone's feeling? There is no historical proof for any visible number of that kind of execution.--Matrek (talk) 07:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

What would matter would be number of executions per capita per some standard unit of time. Also that last witch executed in Poland was actually executed by Prussian authorities. So not quite. Anyway, since all this is irrelevant, we should probably cease this lest it turns into another dispute about nationalities.radek (talk) 00:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Retrospect III

I've occasionally monitored this egregiously prolix discussion for something like four years. It is incredible that even nationalist nit-pickers from both (or all) sides can't agree on Polish-German, German-Polish or, conceivably, Prusso-German-Polish. (For Wiki's sake, I would even settle for Prusso-Polish.)

I accuse all extreme POVers involved, of whatever origin, of obtuse obstructionism, pointless space-filling, and irrelevance. Full stop.

Sca (talk) 19:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Suspected sockpuppets of Serafin

For at least several months constant entries, Copernicus is/was POLISH astronomer see: Nicolaus Copernicus history May to Aug 17 2008

by: Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Serafin An Observer 18 August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.192.221 (talk) 17:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Science or Technology?

Can Copernicus' theory rightly be called scientific? If so, what discovery of his would have moved him to place the Sun at the center of the universe rather than the Earth? In fact, his work produced a major improvement in the technology of the day, viz., Ptolemy's Cosmology. Copernicus' insight greatly simplified the method of mathematically fitting observational data using epicycles. The real scientific insight came when Galileo discovered that Jupiter had moons. That, coupled with the hint provided by Copernicus, led to the scientific conclusion that the Sun sat at the center of the universe and that the Earth was but one of several planets. What got Galileo into trouble was publishing his results without the imprimatur of the Catholic Church. The Church didn't care a whole lot one way or the other but it was on record as believing that the Earth was the center of God's creation and therefore the entire universe. Challenges to the Church's authority and policies were not tolerated. What kept Copernicus' book from being banned altogether was that it could be viewed as "just a theory" that didn't actually prove that the Sun lay at the center of the universe. Virgil H. Soule (talk) 10:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

External Links Not Working

Under General: "Parallax and the Earth's Orbit"

Under About De Revolutionibus: "A Java Applet About Retrograde Motion"

Virgil H. Soule (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Reference section

I'm going through the refs on the page and reformatting the reference section for readability - So far so good. I've noticed some peculiar reference formatting. Like this:

• Rabin, Sheila (2005). "Copernicus". The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Summer 2005 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.). Retrieved 2008-05-26.

I'm not familiar with this formatting style. I'll leave it alone for now but if anyone knows the idea behind the cite book/cite web notation give me a holler. Mrshaba (talk) 17:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• This ref link for this sentences is dead: "Holding the office of canon, he traveled extensively on government business and as a diplomat on behalf of the Prince-Bishop of Warmia." [9]

• Another dead link: [10]

Mrshaba (talk) 18:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to stop screwing with your references now. I see there's some subtle interlinking going on that I'm not familiar with but I believe I backed out all the edits that damaged the interlinking. Mrshaba (talk) 19:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Factual error

Section 1.4 Work states that Copernicus returned to Warmia (Prussia), "and until 1510 resided in the Bishop's castle at Lidzbark (Heilsberg)." There are two towns named "Lidzbark" close to each other. The article points to the wrong one. The town and the castle where Copernicus resided is called Lidzbark Warmiński (NOT Lidzbark aka Lidzbark Welski, to which the link in the article wrongly points) and here is the article about the correct Lidzbark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidzbark_Warmiński (Lidzbark Warmiński). Please someone correct it.

Done. Thank you. Nihil novi (talk) 06:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

His name

Should we add his full name in both languages - Polish and German as in German and Polish Wikipedia ?! Here he remains under his Latin name.

--Krzyzowiec (talk) 05:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Newsarticle about face reconstruction

at the discovery website there is a newsarticle about the facereconstruction of copernicus based on his skull. It also contains information on how he was barried. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.45.152.29 (talk) 20:23, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

This is already pretty well covered in the 'death' section - with cited info giving the same/more data with same/similar pictures. The only thing that is doubted their is the fact that not all the remains were found.--Alf ^melmac 21:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

face of Nicolaus Copernicus

Here is a link to article with reconstruction face of Kopernik - made basic on his scull found in Polnad.

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/5,78402,2999168.html

I suggest to put one or two picture to the Wikipedia.

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/5,78402,2999168.html?i=6

http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/5,78402,2999168.html?i=7 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.12.246.227 (talk) 10:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Copernicus was German according to German Wikipedia

However, this has not always been the case. Originally, the German Wikipedia admitted his Polish heritage (version from 2006: “Nikolaus Kopernikus (* 19. Februar 1473 in Thorn, Polen;“ „Nach Paduaner Archiven war er 1499 in Padua, trug sich in das Album der "natio Polona" ein“ „Von 1491–94 besuchte Kopernikus die Universität in Krakau (poln. Kraków), wo er u.a. Schüler von Wojciech Brudzewski (lat. Albertus de Brudzewo) war“).

However, later Copernicus became germanized by some professional revisionists paid by right-wing German parties. The references to his Polish heritage were carefully removed. Instead, things like these appeared:

„Anfang des 15. Jahrhunderts übersiedelte der Urgroßvater nach Krakau. Die Einwohnerschaft der polnischen Hauptstadt bestand in den 1480er Jahren zu 36% aus Deutschen[11].“ (“At the beginning of the 15th century, the grandfather moved to Cracow. The population of the Polish capital consisted in the 1480s in 36% of Germans”) Why the second sentence? By replacing the number of Germans with any other nationality that was present in Cracow, you can prove he was of any nationality you wish.

"In den kriegerischen Auseinandersetzungen zwischen dem Deutschen Orden und Polen vertrat Kopernikus, genau wie sein Onkel, die Seite des Preußischen Bundes, welcher mit Polen gegen den Deutschen Orden verbündet war" ("In the war efforts between the Teutonic Knights and Poland, Copernicus supported - exactly like his uncle - the Prussian Union which was allied with Poland against the Teutonic Knights"). One might think Prussia was not part of Poland and Copernicus was not a loyal subject of the Polish King. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.147.123 (talk) 19:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

A section was added entitled “Streit um seine Nationalität” (“The nationality controversy”) which is trying to ridicule the idea of Copernicus being Polish. (E.g. the fact that he wrote in Latin allegedly proves that he was German, while in fact, Latin was the official language of the Polish kingdom).

An interesting insight is provided by reading the comments section:

„Wer profitiert und warum wird Kopernikus als Pole bezeichnet ?“ („Who profits and why is Copernicus described as a Pole?“) For the Germans, the truth is irrelevant; it’s important who profits.

„Das engl. wiki hat sich nach monatelangem muehsehligen Beweisebringen jetzt sehr viel gebessert“ („The English Wiki has improved very much after months of lenghtly proofing“) Note the wording: “improved”. For the Germans, the truth is irrelevant; the English Wiki has to be “improved” to serve their propaganda.

It’s obvious that the revisionists are fully aware that Copernicus was a Polish astronomer. The German Wikipedia starts resembling “Der Völkische Beobachter”. But why did we allow them to remove the simple expression “Polish astronomer” from the English Wikipedia? Let the Germans lie to themselves, they used to do things much worse than that (like voting for Adolf Hitler), but why do we allow their propaganda to be widely presented to the international audience in English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.147.123 (talk) 18:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not the German Wikipedia, so their editorial revisions have no bearing on our text. That said, I personally think the section on nationality and ethnicity presents a good, neutral discussion of the situation, and I have no objections to the solution that was hammered out via protracted discussions (see the archive mentioned above). —C.Fred (talk) 18:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

It's only made to resemble "a good, neutral discussion", while in fact, it's propaganda. The fact that his mother was of German origin proves that he was German. The fact that his father was Polish proves nothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.147.123 (talk) 18:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Why are good comments being deleted?

As soon as a pro-Polish editor has successfuly countered a German editor's falsification, the entire thread is being deleted. Only pro-German arguments are being left intact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.147.123 (talk) 18:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Because of your comment, I just went through over 2 months of Talk page edits, one by one. I did not find any instance where an "entire thread is being deleted," let alone the pattern of targeted deletions that you allege. I did find one single anti-German comment that was deleted. While the comment does not contribute much to a rational dialogue, in my opinion it is not so patently offensive—especially in the context of German-Polish animosity that has raged on this page for years—that deletion was justified. Therefore, I restored it in its proper sequence above. It is headlined "German nationalists are doing a good job" (that was the original author's heading). The comment was unsigned, like yours, so I attributed it to the IP address of the individual who posted it. Finell (Talk) 12:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)