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November 17

How to implement/awareness Human Rights in different community around world?

Human Rights is Concepts as a standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, so can any one suggest more on this? To aware masses towards human rights concepts in different community? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arvindbagadgeri (talk • contribs) 10:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

This does rather sound like a homework question. Start reading something like Human Rights and look and see if there are any Human rights organisations, try to get more infortmation about what they do already - what techniques they employ to raise the profile of human rights. Additionally consider just what is meant by 'rights', because we have few rights that are agreed upon universally. Each culture and society has its own practices and ways of life. Philosophically at least it could be seen as dubious that we decide our vision of human-rights is 'correct' and then those who fail to live up to those standards need 'education' or pushing to live to the standards we define. The United Nations Human Rights Council will also be a useful link. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Some only-slightly-cynical people would say that one step towards improving human rights would be to abolish the United Nations Human Rights Council, which allows countries such as Saudia Arabia(!) and Pakistan(!) as members, while devoting over half its time and agenda to the single country of Israel (which under any even remotely objective tally is not involved in anything even remotely approaching 50% of the world's human rights violations). Of course, Israel is uniquely excluded from United Nations Human Rights Council deliberations in a way that no other country in the world is, since Israel is a member of WEOG only in New York, while the United Nations Human Rights Council[ptui!] is based in Geneva... AnonMoos (talk) 23:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone, by virtue of being human, may define "human rights." However, to have an effect on other cultures and value-systems, we need a universally accepted definition. To my knowledge, the only one is the Western-oriented UN version. So, start by defining what you mean, and then move on to defining why you have the right to impose this definition on other people. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that the standard given by the UN in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is probably as close as you'll find to a general consensus on civil rights and human rights. The problem with international law in general is that it tends to be unenforceable except by force: that is a strong nation can ignore with impunity, and a weaker nation may be 'beneath' the notice of the UN. No one did anything about Pol Pot on one end of the scale, and on the other any nation with nukes is probably immune to UN military intervention. As to the right of enforcement, it's easy to justify philosophically once you agree that pure cultural relativism is illogical and leads to unjustifiable conclusions; basically states are members of a global community, and just like any community member a state gives up some rights to absolute autonomy in exchange for protection from the depredation of other states, of course this working model would require a UN that could actually deter attacks on other nations, with more than in-name-only police powers. 69.210.56.62 (talk) 18:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Deskovic

Is the surname (e.g. Jeffrey Deskovic) pronounced in a Czech fashion (Deskovits) or in some other way.? 203.188.92.71 (talk) 10:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

That would depend on where the name came from. It doesn't sound Czech to me, but if it is, it would be pronounced Deskovits; that is, unless it was originally spelled Deskovič, in which case it would be pronounced Deskovich.

But if, as I suspect, it's from one of the Balkan countries (Serbia or Croatia most likely), it's pronounced Deskovich. On the other hand, in English-speaking countries many -ic names originally from the Balkans have become anglicised and are pronounced -ik.

Hence, one Deskovic might be -ich, another might be -ik, and a third might even be -its. You'd need to ask them to be absolutely sure of how their name is pronounced. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I think they meant the wrongly convicted Jeffery Deskovic (wrong link there). By the way, I think, unless it's changed since I last saw it, the article needs categorization. Vltava 68 (talk contribs) 08:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I've merged the very recent (and wrongly spelt) Jeffery Deskovic article to Jeffrey Mark Deskovic, which dates from 2006. Xn4 (talk) 01:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I think my analysis still applies, though. Afaik his name is not well-enough known for anyone here to know how he pronounces it. A journalist who wanted to do a TV or radio piece on him would need to check with him or his family as to how to say his name. An online or newspaper article wouldn't have this problem. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I see his Serbian WP article calls him Џефри Марк Десковик, which is pronounced Dzhefri Mark Deskovik. That strongly suggests to me that it's "Deskovik", because the Serbs would be unlikely to have changed ч (their letter for -ch) to к, unless they had good reason to believe he says it that way. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:20, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Edgar Allen Poe question

what is the best methodology to a recitation named acritic of the fall of the house of usher by edgar allen poe??please help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.194.86.124 (talk) 11:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the OP is asking how to recite a critique on one of Poe's works. If it has to be word-for-word, memorize it. Nobody wants to watch you read. If it doesn't have to be word for word, memorize small sections to prove your points and then give your recital from memory. Never ever stand and read from a paper or turn your back to the audience and read from powerpoint slides. -- kainaw™ 16:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The whole point of giving "oral examinations" or "dissertations" of this type is that ideally, you should know what you are talking about. It's relatively easy to write a paper about something you really don't understand; anyone can paraphrase the work of others, footnote it, and put a bibliography at the end. Doing so does not mean you know much of anything about what you wrote. The thing is, to speak extemporaneously on a topic you have to display some general knowledge on the subject, and that is quite harder. For example, pick something you love and know really well, like lets say your favorite band, or sports team, or food; and talk about it. You could probably spend twenty minutes talking quite knowledgably about these things because you truely know it. The idea behind these sorts of oral recitations is to demonstrate that you know something about the topic at hand, and aren't just reading from a paper. Anyone can read words on a paper; it means something to be able to understand something well enough to explain it to someone. My recommendation is to read the work over and over, and talk about it with others. Get some practice explaining the work you are supposed to be critiquing with your family and friends. Have THEM ask you questions about it. If you can't answer the questions, write them down and try to figure out what the answers are. The more you practice speaking on a subject in this way, the better you will get at it... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to offer a different opinion here. For me, at least, it simply isn't possible to memorize pages of text verbatim. If this is true for you, as well, I suggest you glance up from the page and look at the audience's eyes, scanning a different part of the audience each time, then look down for the next line. Follow the text with a pencil so you don't lose your place when looking up. Hopefully, a word or two at the start of each sentence will be enough to trigger your memory, and you won't spend much time looking down. With an overhead projector or slide show, you also have the "excuse" of looking at the material in order to position and move the pointer, so it needn't look like you're reading it. For an example of someone who should NEVER attempt extemporaneous speech, we need look no farther than Bush. Amazingly, when he speaks in Spanish, he is quite eloquent, apparently because he follows the written text to the letter. StuRat (talk) 17:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Now, as for the specific case of reading a critique, I'd include some dramatic passages from the work itself, as that's likely to be more interesting than the critique. Of course, you need to link them together, by adding comments on the passages you read aloud. As for the Fall of the House of Usher, no critique would be complete without noting how the end corresponds with the end of the movie Carrie. StuRat (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

just so you know, the op probably means: what is the best methodology to a recitation named A Critique of "The Fall of the House of Usher" by Edgar Allen Poe?? It's possible that the poster means composing his own work, ie that "named" just means he should give it that title and then write it himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.195.51 (talk) 22:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

All of his poetry can be sung to the tune of "The Yellow Rose Of Texas"hotclaws 19:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

video documentary about original composition of the bible

In the 90s I viewed a documentary about the history of the sources and composition of the Bible. The documentary's host and/or author was a heavyset, bald, biblical scholar who spoke in an English dialect (at least to my American ear). He was obciously a biblical scholar and I vaguely recall that he or his recent ancestors had emigrated from Greece. I do not recall his name nor the name of the series and I hope someone may that information and make it available to me. The documentary aired on PBS in series format over numerous evenings. Any assistance in learning more about this documentary will be appreciatd, especially information on how to obtain a copy. Thank you. 75.163.72.83 (talk) 17:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

You may be referring to the series Testament, aired originally on BBC's Channel Four, written by John Romer and produced by Antelope Films in 1988. Photos of Romer can be found [1] at both the top and the bottom of the page. Marmot seems to have all 7 parts of the series [2]. ៛ Bielle (talk) 19:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC) (I don't know what the lock is after my link to Marmot. Perhaps someone more experienced in wiki mark-up can explain. ៛ Bielle (talk) 19:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC))

The lock indicates that it is a secure http connection - see https. Warofdreams talk 10:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Why did the proto-indo-european peoples spread so far?

I've been reading about the history of Indo-European peoples and I'm sort of confused. What made these obscure tribes spread so far and what made them so dominant in the new lands they arrived in? Was there some sort of ancient pre-historic empire that existed then later fragmented leaving behind traces of their language like with the Roman Empire and Latin forming the Romance Languages? Or was there just some unexplainable mass migration? 63.245.144.68 (talk) 20:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

1) There certainly wasn't any kind of centralized government (much less an "empire").

2) Language spread is not always the same thing as mass migration.

3) For a nice basic introduction to some of the relevant historical questions and hypotheses, see chapter 15 of The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond... AnonMoos (talk) 23:35, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Language spread has generally reflected population move or conquest. Rarely do people just decide to start speaking some other language that is cooler than theirs or more useful for commerce or some other reason, although it does happen on occasion. Edison (talk) 01:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but the conquest could have been accomplished by a relatively small elite, as happened in many historical cases of language change, such as the shift in Ireland from Irish to English. Probably a similar process spread Latin across much of Western Europe. There was not a mass migration from Italy, but a conquest by relatively small numbers of soldiers, some of whom may have settled among the local population. In order to retain their elite status, local elites began speaking Latin, and eventually the less privileged population followed their elites. The spread of English or Latin probably offers the best analogy for the spread of the Indo-European languages, since there is no clear archeological record of large population movements at the appropriate point in prehistory. The early Indo-European languages had probably already differentiated from proto-Indo-European before their speakers spread very far, based on evidence of reciprocal influence among the first generation of Indo-European languages. These peoples probably shared a military technology that gave them a considerable advantage over other European (and Southwest/Central Asian) peoples: a mastery of mounted warfare and perhaps the world's first cavalry. Since they were already fragmented into different peoples and tribes, they did not form a united empire, but they were able to dominate the peoples they conquered long enough for the conquered to adopt (and adapt) their language. Marco polo (talk) 01:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

After reading several books on the subject, like Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins from Colin Renfrew or On the Origin of Languages by Merritt Ruhlen, or books from Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza and Jared Diamond, I am strongly tending to think that Indo-Europeans discovered agriculture in the fertile crescent and expanded from there. I don't believe they came from north of the Black Sea / Caucasus, nor that horses were better from where they came from. Agriculture gave them a major advantage over hunter-gatherers, and so they were able to take over the land with barely any resistance. --Lgriot (talk) 05:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most linguists do not tend to be convinced by Cavalli-Sforza's theories, and Ruhlen's "Mega-comparative" work is quite controversial... AnonMoos (talk) 09:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry I take everyone's opinion with a pinch of salt, including these authors' opinions (they actually disagree, btw). But after reading a number of theories, though, I still think that I-E. expansion was from the crescent and thanks to agriculture. --00:57, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Why isn't this at the Language desk? AnonMoos (talk) 09:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe because it is about archeology too. --Lgriot (talk) 00:57, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

My take on the shift to English from Irish in Ireland is that it had much more to do with the famine than anything to do with elites or conquest. Communities spent some of their money in the middle of the famine bringing in teachers so they could learn English and get a job quicker when they or their children emigrated, and they actively spoke English at home to help with this. Dmcq (talk) 09:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, what I'm trying to ask, I guess is: Why did so many people adopt the Indo-European language and culture? If it was conquest, what made these people spread so far and conquer so many people? I read somewhere that it was because the Indo-Europeans were the first people to invent the chariot. Was it just a technological thing then? 63.245.144.68 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC).

Some people claim that Indo-Europeans mastered horses better than others, and so their tribes were able to beat the nearby tribe, settle on their land, and then the year after that, beat the next nearby tribe again, take their land or submit them to I-E rule, etc. for centuries and this resulted in a huge territory spread. As I said above, I (and some others) think they mastered agriculture among the first, which gave them an advantage in terms of population (food production can sustain 10 times more people than food gathering). With a much larger population, they were able to push away the other tribes, and send colonists to farm the land next door, which then would result in this colony to have many children, which when they are big enough, would want to farm their own leand, and would go colonise the next area of flat land, etc. for generations. But this is not agreed among all scientists that are involved (archeologist, linguists, geneticists, etc.) , so you would have to make your own opinion from reading studies written by other people, or better, start a carrer in one of these domains and start your own scientific study (which would be an extremely interesting domian to work on, I would recommend it if you have the scientific vibe). --Lgriot (talk) 00:57, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The genetic evidence certainly seems to indicate a movement from Asia Minor and the Balkans into western Europe at the dawn of the Neolithic, some 7,000 years ago. The question is whether the bearers of Indo-European languages were the people who took part in this migration, or perhaps more accurately, population drift (since the new arrivals seem to have intermarried with the indigenous inhabitants). What makes this unlikely, in my view, is that geographically distant Indo-European languages, such as Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit, were far too close when first attested in writing 2,000 to 3,000 years ago to have diverged 4,000 to 5,000 years earlier. The linguistic evidence points rather strongly, I think, to an Indo-European origin among horsemen on the plains north of the Black Sea, probably around 5,000 years ago. There is some archeological evidence that would support a cultural shift, very plausibly carried by Indo-European speakers (without large-scale population movements), radiating from present-day Ukraine beginning about 4,000 years ago. (Though speakers of the language ancestral to Hittite probably migrated south earlier, before the other Indo-European peoples moved apart.) If that is right, then the existing agricultural population would have adopted Indo-European languages from a conquering elite. But, as others have pointed out, this is all disputed among scholars and virtually impossible to prove conclusively one way or the other. Marco polo (talk) 02:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

That's disappointing. I didn't know it was so controversial. I hope they can figure it out someday, though. 63.245.144.68 (talk) 13:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

There's actually not all that much controversy among linguists -- a fairly strong majority of those linguists who deal with the detailed specific facts of ancient languages (as opposed to broad-brush mega-comparison theorizers) think that a South Russian Urheimat is more probable than an Anatolian Urheimat. AnonMoos (talk) 14:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

It has been suggested that the IE expansion was triggered by the rise of the Black Sea after the Ice Age. That idea appeals to me but I gather it is not generally taken seriously. (Hm, the deluge itself is more controversial than television had led me to think.) —Tamfang (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The Black Sea Deluge theory is certainly interesting, but very improbable. Still, it's extremely confusing to me why these people would suddenly begin migrating like that. 63.245.144.68 (talk) 15:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

November 18

Contract law essay

Donald Diggers Ltd tenders for the contract to construct a new hotel for Opulence Ltd. Donald quotes a highly competitive price on the basis that the contract is concluded on its standard terms. Opulence awards Donald the contract, which is duly signed on Donald's terms.

Initially, work proceeds smoothly and according to schedule. However, Donald's workforce is affected by an outbreak of bird influenza and it proves extremely difficult to hire the replacements needed to keep the project on schedule.

Donald is forced to pay premium rates. Donald approaches Opulent to see if Opulent will share the additional cost. Opulent needs the hotel to open on time as it has invested a considerable sum in publicizing the opening and hiring a top celebrity to perform the opening ceremony. All this will be wasted if the opening is delayed. Opulent therefore agrees to contribute $5,000 to the additional labour costs.

The work is completed on time, the opening goes ahead and the first guests arrive. Soon, however, problems start to appear. The swimming pool proves to be only six feet deep instead of seven feet as specified in the contract and it is marked on the outside of the pool. One of the guests breaks his nose after diving in. Some guests contract food poisoning after eating in the one the hotel restaurants. Overall, considerable adverse publicity has been generated, future bookings are low and some bookings have been cancelled.

When Opulent complains to Donald, the latter responds that the food poisoning has nothing to do with its work. Moreover, in respect of the swimming pool, Donald points out that all Opulent needs to do is to change the sign on the side of the pool to indicate its true depth. The market value of the hotel, Donald claims, is unaffected by the shallower pool. Moreover, Donald refers to clause 4 of the contract, which provides as follows:

"All liability for defective installation of swimming pools, whether arising by reason of negligence or otherwise, is hereby excluded."

For its part, Donald is seeking payment of the additional $5,000. Opulent denies that it is legally liable to pay this in any event. Even if it so liable, opulent is withholding that sum by way of set-off against Donald's maintains that Opulent is legally liable to pay extra $5,000 and relies on clause 7 of the contract, which excludes any right of set-off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blak thot (talk • contribs) 13:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating as the question is, I refer my learned friend to the admonition that we will not do your homework. --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I am trying to find that "fascinating" question, Tagishsimon. It is an essay, a "case study" even, but what, specifically, we are being asked to assist with, I am not sure. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm no lawyer, but here's my opinion:

1) For a standard contract, the client has no obligation to help the contractor defray unexpected costs. There are such things as "cost plus" contracts where the client agrees to pay all the contractor's costs, whatever they end up being, plus a profit margin. These are popular with US defense contractors. In a standard contract, though, the contractor assumes all the risk.

2) If Opulent did agree to pay $5000, even though under no obligation to do so, then they must pay it.

3) The food poisoning incident doesn't mean Opulent can demand money back from the contractor any more than they could demand the $5000 from Opulent.

4) Disclaimers such as the swimming pool liability waiver may be unenforceable, depending on the jurisdiction. You can't just waive all legal responsibilities for your work by getting the customer to sign something. The injured person could also sue the contractor directly for negligence. If there is proof that the contractor intentionally mislabeled the depth of the pool, knowing this might result in injury or death, then the decision makers at the contract company may even be found criminally negligent and sent to prison. Similarly, if Opulent can be shown to have known about the mislabeled depth, then they could be found to be civilly and/or criminally negligent.

5) The contract's statement that no set-offs are allowed also seems likely to be unenforceable.

6) The contractor's argument that a shallower pool is "just as good" is completely spurious. If Opulent contracted for a deeper pool, they are entitled to get a deeper pool, or have the amount of money refunded which will be required to deepen the pool.

In short, this sounds like the contractor from hell. They will lose in court and in the court of public opinion. StuRat (talk) 18:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

And your answers are, in short, why you are not a lawyer ;) I'd opine that for 1 - 3, we do not have enough information to answer the supposed questions. I disagree with your take on 4, 5 & 6. Oh - and that's why this desk is not the right place for this question. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you going to explain your reasoning for any of this ? Item 6, in particular, seems quite clear-cut. Do you really think a contractor can provide a mislabeled, shallower pool than the contract specifies, say it's "just as good", and demand full payment ? StuRat (talk) 18:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's just take the "clear-cut" item 6 as an exemplar, shall we? If there's an exclusion clause in the contract in the form "All liability for defective installation of swimming pools, whether arising by reason of negligence or otherwise, is hereby excluded", that would tend to do. We have no evidence one way or another that the 6' depth arose out of negligence, so any discussion of whether that element of the clause is enforceable is moot. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't agree that you can just release yourself from any liability for negligence just by getting someone to sign something saying so, as I've already said. If this was actually the case, then every car ever sold would have fine print in the contract saying that the manufacturer isn't responsible for any injury or deaths their negligence causes. If the 6 foot depth did not arise from negligence, the other possibility is that it's an intentional deception, designed to fool the customer into believing they got what they paid for when they did not. That's the type of deception that would invalidate a contract. StuRat (talk) 04:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

1. We do not know that it was negligence on the part of the contractor. 2. Consumers (at least in the UK) tend to be protected by things like the Unfair Contract Terms Act, which is why you do not see the small print of which you spoke. Businesses are not so protected. 3. We do not know that is was deception - if you have to invent new data to support your case you are going outside the bounds of information to hand, and that does not work. The best we can say is that on the information we have, the hotel group cannot exclude the clause it entered into freeing the contractor from liability. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

What "new data" did I invent ? The OP stated "The swimming pool proves to be only six feet deep instead of seven feet as specified in the contract and it is marked on the outside of the pool". How can a contractor deliver something other than what was promised in the contract without it either being negligence or deliberate deception ? StuRat (talk) 17:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

To give one example, if the contractor had relied on representations of a surveyor employed by the hotel, that the land beneath the pool was clay; but bedrock was discovered at 6'6" depth, that would be a good reason which is neither negligent nor deceptive. There are 1,001 reasons which do not involve either negligence nor deception. You invent information when you say it is negligence or deception: you don't know whether it is and you must know that you don't know whether it is. The conclusion that you are adding new data is unavoidable. And then there's still the clause which the hotel group knowingly signed up to which may very well be enforcable, whether or not the cause is negligence. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Your example doesn't explain why they painted the indicator saying the depth was 7 feet deep. If they were unable to make it 7 feet deep, they would still have a legal obligation to tell the customer that, provide a good reason, mark the sign correctly, and come to some agreement on modifying the compensation (or keeping it the same, if that's the agreement). They couldn't just walk away and call it "good enough". StuRat (talk) 00:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If I were Opulence I would contact an attorney. I assume Opulence foolishly signed the contract without any competent legal review by an attorney, which would have spotted and deleted the egregious "swimming pool clause." Edison (talk) 20:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

What this is, is a standard question asked in law classes. Silly names, highly complicated and unlikely situation - all the signs are there. If the admonition to "do you own homework" wont' stop you, seriously what are the chances that a group of guys on the internet are going to know more about this than you? You did go to the classes didn't you? DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Get thee to a Gilbert's Law Outline on Contracts and be especially nice to friends who attended class.75Janice (talk) 02:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC) 76Janice

---

(Removed random symbols.) StuRat (talk) 00:53, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Doubt these symbols are here for a reason. Anyway, if I might offer some advice, I used to be a lawyer. Well, still do a few wills and estates, but the point is, that gave me a headache. If you're relyin gon Wikipedia to answer homework now on what is probably a basic course, consider whether you really want to go through this. Nobody should thnk less of you if you decide it's not for you. Indeed, I had a lot of colleagues who applauded me for my courage in realizing after 10 years I'd changed a lot and felt led to go back to school.

If you're taking the time to put whole law school essays on the reference desk, you might be feeling what I felt after a few of the toughest litigation cases; just totally burned out.Somebody or his brother (talk) 21:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

You're in LAWSCHOOL! Do your own homework. Geez. --Shaggorama (talk) 15:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Awami League and Bangladesh Nationalist Party's alliance

Who are allies with Awami League and who are allies with BNP? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.75.49 (talk) 16:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

• The articles Islami Oikya Jote and Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh say they are in alliance with BNP. Since BNP is a conservative right-wing political party, it is natural right wing parties will be its allies. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Awami League, this forum will help you. Parties like Gano Forum, Bikalpa Dhara Bangladesh, Bangladesh Tarikat Federation etc. are allies with Awami League. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 04:10, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer but it still doesn't help me who are the official allies of Awami League and BNP, meaning like a list. Give me a list of both alliance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.75.49 (talk) 19:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.118.74 (talk)

Psychology question: name this feeling!

(Sorry, I realise psychology isn't within humanities, but I didn't see a reference desk for social sciences.)

Does anyone know if there is a name for this feeling (and I mean 'proper' name as used in psychology etc., not just 'acting-like-a-two-year-old' correct as that may be!)? If for example I wanted to watch a movie but my wife insisted on watching something else on another channel, and then half an hour after my movie starting she said she wasn't interested in her own programme any more and that I could watch mine after all, I'd get even more upset now that I was allowed to watch the movie partially than if I'd not been allowed to watch it at all.

I suspect this is for one or more of the following reasons (which one, I don't know, and there may well be other possible explanations too): 1) I feel upset but I can't properly justify that feeling, because in the end I was actually allowed to watch my movie; this leaves me with an 'unspent' or 'frustrated' feeling of anger. -or- 2) I feel that I am not in control, when someone else first decides that I cannot watch something, and then decides that I can (and, by implication, should), effectively making the decisions for me and treating me like a child. -or- 3) I have trouble relating to the change in circumstances: having reluctantly accepted the fact that I cannot watch the movie, I then find it difficult to adjust to the new situation.

Perhaps a movie isn't the best example, though - as any movie fan knows, watching part of a movie is worse than not watching it at all. In my case the same feeling can arise in all similar contexts where I can't do something that I want when I want it, and then get given the chance to do it when I consider it to be too late. And just to repeat/clarify, this is not about being upset at not being allowed to do something, this is about being *more* upset about being eventually allowed to do it, only too late. Also, I'm not that interested in hearing what a baby I'm being or that I should talk to a shrink, but rather knowing if there's a name for this particular complex (in other words, if the issue is recognised more widely, or is it just me!).

80.175.227.165 (talk) 16:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I know what you mean. I'd say with me it would be because it appears watching what she wanted wasn't so important to her after all so there wasn't a good reason for not being able to watch your movie. Since you love her, you don't mind sacrificing your movie if it's important to her, but since it wasn't important to her you're annoyed that you sacrificed it for nothing. I'm not sure there's really a technical term for it, it's just annoyance that something bad has happened for no good reason. --Tango (talk) 16:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

This happens to me when I stay at my parents' house. I start watching a TV program, while Dad is in the other room watching a different program. Then, he comes in and turns over to watch the same program, while the program is still on in the other room. Then he falls asleep within 5 minutes because he is not actually watching the program. I turn back, and he wakes up 10 or 20 minutes later demanding his program to be put back on. I complain to Mum, who has been sitting in the other room all along, enduring his program and expecting him to come back in, so she comes in and switches over to a totally different channel, and I am expected now to watch 'my program' in the other room, even though there is only about ten minutes left of it. It's just an annoyance.--ChokinBako (talk) 19:41, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd guess the feeling is being "ripped off" due to shenanigans about control and being manipulated. You might like to look at Eric Berne's ideas about the dynamics of unsatisfying interpersonal behaviour ("games" involving "victim", "persecutor" and "rescuer") put forward under Transactional Analysis. There are bigger issues of powerplay, disempowerment and empowerment, but I can't find the interpersonal scale in wiki. Julia Rossi (talk) 21:32, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd call it resentment. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I recommend the book The Meaning of Liff. It might be in there. Jørgen (talk) 06:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The article links to an online version: [3] (which, strangely enough, is hosted less than half an hour's walk from where I live) Jørgen (talk) 06:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Questions about social science would logically go on the Science Reference Desk. Social scientists, in my experience, tend to be "inhuman," so the Humanities Desk seems a less likely choice. Edison (talk) 06:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I would say you were exasperated. I vaguely recall reading about a psychological/sociological experiment with a similar effect - the subjects performed some task, and the subjects who got a nominal/no reward for doing so felt better about it than those who got a larger reward (because the latter group saw it as bad pay for their work). (Edit - see Boring Task Experiment). This makes me think it could be something relating to cognitive dissonance. 89.242.103.230 (talk) 11:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I would say its a form of passive aggresive behavior; by giving yourself the right to feel pissed in a situation which, by logic, you should not be (i.e. you are watching the TV show you wanted to watch first!!!) this shows a desire to maintain control in all situations; but to do so via emotional manipulation... The psychological umbrella term that covers these sorts of behaviors is passive aggressive. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the passive aggressive nature in the question. What I see is anger due to lack of appreciation. He lets his wife watch her program. The response should be that she appreciates the gesture and appreciates the program. However, she doesn't enjoy the program, rejecting it. So, the gesture isn't appreciated. It is not uncommon for people to redirect feeling of disappointment as anger. The passive aggressive action is confronting random strangers on the Internet instead of telling his wife that he expected her to appreciate her program and, since she didn't, he was disappointed. -- kainaw™ 14:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Good question. While I can't name the feeling, I can write something that works for me in situation like this: We ask each other to think of a number from 1-12 for how much this is worth to us, then we compare. It works because (1) numbers eliminate the need to interpret the tone of voice or "reading between the lines", and (2) it evens out in the long run, since both of us have a desire to be true to ourselves and each other. So neither tries to be too extreme towards high or low numbers, and we rather ended up meeting at 6, which isn't a problem because when it's equally important to each, it doesn't matter for our overall happiness which we chose, so we just picked one choice at random; no need to end up like Buridan's donkey. — Sebastian 19:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I should add that this will probably not work when you're already in the midst of a heated discussion, because then it's in our genes to put all attention to getting this one thing and to the extreme for it. But when you ask for a number right at the moment you become aware of the conflict of interests, it gives both sides a chance to examine their hearts and take the bigger picture into account. — Sebastian 19:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Does Bangladesh have a military alliance with India or Pakistan today?

If a country were to attack Bangladesh, would India or Pakistan send military to help Bangladesh? 72.136.111.205 (talk) 16:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Considering it was formerly a part of both of those countries, before the Bangladesh Liberation War and the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, probably neither. Grsz^{11 →Review!} 16:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

See Foreign relations of Bangladesh. --Tango (talk) 16:40, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, Bangladesh and India are more all less enemy countries. India is accused by Bangladeshi authorities for helping terrorist organizations against Bangladesh government such as the Banga Sena. See the article Illegal immigration in India, India and Bangladesh have a bitter relation over immigration issue. Bangladesh regularly accuses India of being an aggressive and imperialist country in South Asia (as many countries in the international politics accuse the United States of being an imperialist power), this is known as "Indian expansionism" in South Asian countries. Similarly India accuses Bangladesh for funding anti-government organization within India like the United Liberation Front of Assam. The founder of ULFA Paresh Baruah lives in Bangladesh and his extradition efforts by India proved to be unsuccessful and it is common knowledge in Indian political circles that Baruah is protected by the Bangladesh government. You can also read the article 2001 Indian–Bangladeshi border conflict. Border disputes and short armed conflicts between the Border Security Force and the Bangladesh Rifles are frequently reported in Indian and Bangladeshi media. Simply put, the bilateral relations between India and Bangladesh are not warm. Internal politics also plays a role in the bilateral relations. In India Hindu fundamentalism and in Bangladesh Islamic fundamentalism influences this bilateral relation. To properly understand India-Bangladesh relation, a quick overview of the history will be helpful. Historically India helped Bangladesh to be a separate nation from Pakistan, but please keep in mind that it was a complex period. India helped Bangladesh liberation war primarily with of the following motives:

• The 1971 Bangladesh atrocities resulted in huge refugee influx in India from Bangladesh. At that time India had only to three options: 1) let the refugees freely enter India (which will be devastating for India's economy) 2) prevent the refugees from entering India at border and 3) remove the root cause behind this refugee problem i.e. the East Pakistan government. India choose the last.
• India and Pakistan has a natural enmity from 1947 over Kashmir issue. It is obvious India will help the enemy of her enemy.

But even so, Indira Gandhi once told Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, "If I help you, after independence you will help a Bengali separatist movement in West Bengal against the Indian state." Mujibur Rahman assured Gandhi he will do nothing like this. So you can see from the very beginning, India and Bangladesh had a suspicion on one another.

I will say that the bilateral relations between Pakistan and Bangladesh have improved in recent years and now Bangladesh is more closer to Pakistan than India. In the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation, while India is the strongest country, Pakistan plays the role of the major anti-India military and political power and Bangladesh generally supports Pakistan on this issue and views India to be an expansionist country which wants a regional hegemony. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Where are the illegal Bengladeshi immigrants heading to in India? 72.136.111.205 (talk) 02:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Since in appearance, Bangladeshis look like Indians, it become almost impossible to distinguish a Bangladeshi from an Indian only by observation. The illegal Bangladeshi immigrants generally secure ration cards due to the corruption in Indian administration. There are also reports where they even secured voter identity cards. Many Bangladeshi migrants have become Indian citizens and this is possible due to the fact that documents can be acquired fraudulently in India. They live in India just like an Indian, many are in legitimate professions like laborers, business or service, many are involved in organized crime. The article Illegal immigration in India (though it has POV concerns) will answer to many of your queries. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 03:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

You can also read these references [4][5][6][7][8][9]. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 04:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Were battles in the middle ages fought 24/7?

I'm working on a research paper and i was wondering if battles fought in the middle ages were endlessly fought from dusk till dawn all the time until they were won. or if there were set resting periods that the armies took for sleep and such. if so, how long were such periods of time? 140.198.155.68 (talk) 20:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, each battle and combatant will have different rules, of course, but, in general, it was difficult to fight at night due to the lack of artificial light. Carrying torches would illuminate you're own forces more than the enemy, and also limit your ability to carry and use weapons, and subject your side to fire-related injuries. So, most armies would retire for the night rather than take heavy casualties from falling off cliffs, riding their horses into trees, shooting at each other in the dark, etc. A full moon on a clear night might provide enough light for battles on certain nights, though. StuRat (talk) 20:30, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

When the fighting stopped because it got dark, did a soldier ever observe "It sure is quiet out there." With the response: Edison (talk) 20:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

"Yeah--TOO quiet," implying that perhaps the enemy was stealthily advancing under cover of darkness, and prepared to launch a sneak attack or to attack at first light. Edison (talk) 21:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I am completely agree with StuRat. Due to lack of technologies which are necessary for war at night time, military strategists of the era certainly did not choose the night as a proper time for battle. Some references [10][11][12] suggest there were incidents of battle at night. Per this, Vikings are known to have attacked during night time. But certainly it was not the norm. Moreover the Vikings were pirates, thus their attacks do not fall under the definition of war. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Per this, night attack in the middle ages in Japan was considered to be a surprise tactic. It was not the norm. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 21:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It should also be noted that in Medieval times, battles were mostly formalized engagements, and were not really about "destroying the enemy" as it was to proving to them that, by your own superior number, tactics, and weaponry, the war wasn't worth fighting. They really did line up their armies at an open field and launch them at eachother like set pieces on some sort of giant gameboard. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 22:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the early 18th century was the height of the era of the formalized geometric set-piece battle, while the middle ages produced a number of disorganized chaotic bloody melees... AnonMoos (talk) 05:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

These answers have covered the "24" part of the question, now what about the "7"? Did it ever happen, or often happen, that armies from Christian countries avoided fighting on Sunday, for example? And analogously for other religions. Today such an idea seems bizarre, but that's today. --Anonymous, 06:06 UTC, November 19, 2008.

The Peace of God movement was supposed to prevent fighting on holy days but it wasn't very successful. The Battle of Towton took place on a Sunday and I'm certain there are many others. For other religions, we have the awkwardly titled List of battles fought during Ramadan by Muslims. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh! Le Dimanche de Bouvines, bien sur! Adam Bishop (talk) 08:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Citing battles that occurred on Sunday is answering a different question. --Anon, 11:26 UTC, November 19, 2008.

Not really. The phrase 24/7 means "24 hours a day 7 days a week". He was answering the second part of the section header...--Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Not trying to sound argumentative here, but the original question asked if battles were fought continuously, and the answer was given that people stopped fighting at night. I then asked if it "ever happened, or often happened" that they also didn't fight on Sunday (or their equivalent). Battles that did happen on Sunday are irrelevant to that question. --Anon, 17:20 UTC, November 19, 2008.

Well, it demonstrates that avoiding fighting on Sunday was not always a great concern, for at least two major battles. Perhaps I should have said "yes of course they tried to avoid fighting on holy days, especially after the Peace of God movement, but given that these two important battles were fought on Sundays they do not seem to have avoided it all the time." I don't know if this a coincidence or what but checking the dates for all the medieval battles I happen to know the date of, they almost always seem to have been fought on a Friday or Saturday. As for Islam, the link I gave is intended to show that although Muslims are not supposed to wage war during Ramadan, they often do, especially if the other side expects them not to. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

My apologies; I skipped a few words in reading your original reply and missed the Peace of God bit. --Anon, 05:05 UTC, November 20/08.

% of us population that knows who noam chomsky is

What percentage of the us population knows who Noam Chomsky is? My friend estimated over 25%, but I think that is way too high. Also, as a baseline, we were trying to find out his total book sales in terms of absolute numbers sold. However, this type of information seems to be hard to come by in general. The best I could find were rankings of bestsellers by week, etc. Where would I be able to find this type of information (specifically, total number of books sold by Noam Chomsky). Thanks, --Thegoodearth (talk) 22:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Noam Chomsky has a good amount of information about Noam Chomsky. It also has a number of external links which might help. He's certainly sold a lot of books. This says that his 9/11 pamphlet sold 1/2 million copies, for example. Gwinva (talk) 23:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Noam Chomsky has a certain following. I'd estimate his fan base at around a million. I would guess pretty unscientifically that another 20 million people know more or less who he is. That adds up to maybe 7% of the US population. Maybe half of those have read anything by him. The basis for my estimate is that one-fourth of US university graduates know who he is, and half of those have ever read anything by him. I think that he is virtually unknown among the less educated. I would guess that a large majority of university graduates don't know who he is and that a small majority have never heard of him. I think that he is little known on the less prestigious university campuses (except maybe among the professoriate). On the other hand, I think that most Harvard graduates probably know roughly who he is. This is based entirely on very unscientific original research. Marco polo (talk) 02:04, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a completely unscientific guess, but I'd say no more than 5% and probably closer to 3%. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

In part, it depends on what you mean by "know who Noam Chomsky is." Recognize the name as belonging to an actual person (as opposed to a character at Hogwarts)? Identify him as a living person? Describe him as a student of linguistics? Identify him with the phrase "transformational grammar" and explain that term so that my dad would know what you're talking about? Name one of his books? State truthfully that you've read one of them?

I don't think 15% of U.S. adults could pick Noam Chomsky out of a lineup that included Robert Indiana, Edward Albee, and Tom Lehrer, all of whom like Chomsky were born in 1928. Maybe 25% could pick fellow octogenarian Walter Mondale out of the same lineup, and maybe a few more, Gordie Howe. --- OtherDave (talk) 04:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't guess it would be that high, but I also think I am not surprised by that. He is certainly an important figure in academia, but most Americans aren't academics, and aren't really that familiar with him or his work. Being important is not equivalent to being popular. I would posit that other contemporaries of him, such as possibly Linus Pauling or Milton Friedman or any of another of academics are equally as "important" and likely equally as "unknown". I am neither unsurprised by this nor concerned by this. Most American's daily lives are not much affected by the work of theoretical linguists, or of physical chemists, or of macroeconomists, so it is unsurprising that they don;t concern themselves intimately with their works, regardless of how important they are to their individual fields. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

This is clearly a question for Jaywalking! :-) --Anonymous, 06:07 UTC, November 19, 2008.

Chomsky is actually too obscure for Jaywalking, where the joke is that random people don't know basic things that they should know. There's no reason for the average American to know or care about Chomsky, who is important to only a small segment of society, but they really ought to be able to identify Hillary Clinton, for example, and it's funny (or scary) when they can't. —Kevin Myers 09:14, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It will be good to understand the reason why so few people have heard the names of philosophers like Noam Chomsky. In every country, the common people are generally more interested in celebrities like actors, porn stars, pop stars rather than philosophers and intellectuals. People like to gossip. Several factors may be responsible for this:

• boredom and loneliness play a role in this interest in celebrity gossips. People attempt to overcome their personal boredom through celebrity gossips.
• personal outlook is a reason. Many people find news coverage on celebrity gossips more interesting than news coverage on philosophers, their books etc.
• education plays another factor. Some people simply do not understand the views of philosophers or what they are saying. Thus they show no interest in philosophers.
• in many societies, particularly in third world countries, sex is viewed in a negative manner. Countries like the Netherlands, the UK are also not exceptions. Even in the Netherlands, unrestricted sexual practice (for example public sex) is not allowed. Sex in objectified and institutionalized in all modern societies. Most societies cannot take sex like other activities food, sports etc. In all societies, due to economic and social factors, unrestricted sexual relationship become impossible for many people. This complex attitude results in more or less sexual frustration in many people which they try to overcome through pornography and make them more interested in porn stars than philosopher.

The media is somewhat responsible for this. Here is a reference according to which many people believe celebrity scandals receive too much news coverage. The capitalist media always want to build the public opinion in such a way which will favorable for the corporations and consumerist in nature, so media actually play the role of protector of the capitalist-consumerist system. Thus the corporate media always try to blackout left-leaning philosophers and intellectuals like Noam Chomsky. Finally, the people who will be benefited most from Chomsky's Libertarian socialism, i.e. the working class, do not know the ABC of socialism and left-libertarianism, thus they show no interest in philosophers like Chomsky. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 11:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Missing from your list is the most likely explanation: People don't know about Noam Chomsky because he's irrelevant to their daily lives. Actors, porn stars, and pop stars have at least entertainment value: Chomsky, not so much. - Nunh-huh 02:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I knew it! I always suspected People magazine was part of a diabolical plot to keep the masses chained to the bloody wheels of oppression. Mwalcoff (talk) 23:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It might be interesting to ask, of countries that include philosophy in school curricula, what percent continue to take an interest? Eg, how many French people continue to be philosophically aware? Julia Rossi (talk) 02:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

is it true that japanese school-children stand?

Is it true that in at least some schools (elementary? private schools? don't know exactly) the children stand while being instructed instead of sitting down at desks or benches... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.75.250 (talk) 23:41, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have never heard of this being a common thing in Japanese schools (but I did have a boss that used to conduct meetings with everyone standing up under the belief that meetings would be shorter and keep to the point). I have found you an interesting website that outlines a typical day in a Japanese school [13] - hope it helps. --KizzyB (talk) 15:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

And Donald Rumsfeld used a standing desk, which apparently deprived his brain of the blood needed to make proper decisions. :-) StuRat (talk) 16:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's another description of Japanese grade schools. I've never heard of standing during class either. It's very unusual if it happens at all. -- BenRG (talk) 22:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The paper KizzyB foudn includes this assertion: "School policies often require students to stand on buses and trains, leaving seats open for other passengers in order to demonstrate consideration. In practice, however, the behavior of students tends to relax as they move farther away from school." This might be how you heard that children had to stand. BrainyBabe (talk) 16:35, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

November 19

Why was Spain at the recent G20 Summit.

Looking at this picture, [[14]] I notice in the back row the President of Spain, Señor José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. Why were Spain there if they are not listed as members of G20? Richard Avery (talk) 13:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

France was entitled to two seats, both as a nation, and as they hold the current EU presidency. After lobbying from various countries, they decided to give their second seat to Spain. Deutsche Welle has further details. Warofdreams talk 13:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I was going to give the short answer: They were invited... But Warofdreams has given a much more specific one... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I really must pay more attention. Thanks both. Richard Avery (talk) 08:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Did you not spot Jan Kees de Jager in that photo too? William Avery (talk) 13:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Leadership styles

In many organisations in Zambia the type of leadership style has affected the labour forces performance negatively. How do leadership styles affect productivity in corporate organisations in developing economies.Blak thot (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

oooh... That's a tricky question. I only wish that colleges and universities taught classes where information such as this was presented in the form of a lecture or a textbook, so that I could attend those lectures and take notes, or so that I could read that textbook and find possible answers to questions such as this... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I have linked your question to various articles, in case you are missing some fundamental concepts that are not in your text book this year. Try also to read those articles.--Lgriot (talk) 04:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Messiahs in History

In many Christain faiths, Jesus is considered the Messiah. In the term that I understand, Messiah is someone who delivers man from evil/chaos/etc. So Jesus is considered the first Messiah historically. So, are there any notable figures in history that can be Messiah-like after Jesus? I guess one comes to mind - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Is this a fair assumption? --Emyn ned (talk) 15:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I would have thought the concept of a messiah in modern society to be a subjective title - as daft as it may sound Hitler was probably initially seen by the German population as a messiah, delivering them from social depression and giving them hope; long term history obviously shows otherwise. Throughout history there have been a number of people claiming to be the messiah - and even today a section of the American public will feel that Barack Obama has the qualities of a messiah! --KizzyB (talk) 15:52, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Messiah is a title for the expected deliverer of the Jewish people (who hasn't arrived yet). Christians refer to Jesus as the Messiah, claiming that he is the delivered of the Jewish people. (Yes, there are Jewish Christians who blur the distinction). In slang, it can mean anything you like. You can claim Bart Simpson is the Messiah if you like. Once you change the definition of a word, you can make it mean anything you like. -- kainaw™ 15:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The meaning of Messiah has changed dramatically over the years as well. To 1st century Jews, for example, the term was widely held to mean a warrior-king who would lead an army to deliver the Jews from their oppressors and form an independent state. Its why Jesus was treated as such a political threat. When asked "are you the Messiah" by Pilate, for example, what Pilate was really saying was "Are you the guy the Jews keep saying will overthrow the Roman government here in Israel (i.e. Pilate himself)". Jesus, of course, took himself to be a different sort of deliverer, one who would deliver all men from the oppression of sin. Jesus, of course, told Pilate "it is as you say" with his own definition in mind; Pilate took him to mean the more commonly understood definition, which is why he considered Jesus enough of a threat to put up for execution. Since Jesus time, the term has broadend to imply anyone who delivers others from an oppressive situation, but this is a more recent sort of synecdoche than the original, more narrow, definitions... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

---

The original meaning of the Hebrew word Mashiaħ משיח was "annointed" (referring to the ceremony of consecrating priests and kings by annointing them with oil). In the actual original Hebrew text of the Old Testament, the word Mashiaħ משיח refers to several Israelite priests and kings (and even the Persian emperor Cyrus in Isaiah 45:1), but never to an apocalyptic future savior... AnonMoos (talk) 22:02, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Side-spring boots in Heart of Darkness

What are side-spring boots? I came accross the term in Heart of Darkness, in which a minor character is described as wearing side-spring boots, and pink pyjamas tucked into his socks. I have searched all over the Internet, asked the librarian at my university library, and flipped through various books written about fashion in that period, but I have not been able to figure out what side-spring boots are. Neelix (talk) 16:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Was there anything before "side"? The term "spring boot" isn't common (as far as I know) anymore. It is a style of boot that has a pattern down the side. You can get leather side spring boots, cashmere side spring boots... just about anything (even zebra striped fur side spring boots). Because "pyjamas" is not written in the American modern form (pajamas), I assume that "spring boot" is still in use in British English. -- kainaw™ 17:29, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Because I asked the nurses for this answer (I don't know jack about women's boot fashions), I was just told that one of our nurse's from London owns and often wears leather side spring boots. -- kainaw™ 17:31, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The usage is "with sandy hair and red whiskers, who wore sidespring boots, and pink pyjamas tucked into his socks" - on googling one also finds "side-spring boots" in Victorian texts. I have never heard the expression "spring boots" in British English. Conrad used the British spelling of pyjamas because (despite being Polish) he was British. DuncanHill (talk) 17:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Asking again... I was told that "spring boots" is a very old term that isn't used anymore in British English either, but most women know what it means. Perhaps it is like "petticoat". Nobody uses the term, but they know what it means. Since spring boots are for women and there is nothing before "side", I assume that the author is not referring to spring boots. -- kainaw™ 17:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I just realized that the author is most likely referring to spring clasps (like those found on ski boots). You may find leather boots with spring clasps on the sides in stores that sell motorcycle clothing. I rarely see anyone wear them in real life, but I've seen them in many Japanese animation books, movies, games, etc. -- kainaw™ 18:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

See this glossary in an edition of Heart of Darkness. The boots in question have elastic panels along the sides to make them easier to pull on and off. Deor (talk) 19:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Well done for finding that glossary - very useful to now have a name for that sort of boots. Rather embarrassing for me, however - the edition you linked to was edited by my uncle! DuncanHill (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Reminds me of the gag, "Dad, what does 'tore his leather' mean?" "I don't know, son, why do you ask?" "Because this book says, 'Robin Hood tore his leather jerkin off.'" --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I am quite amazed that I thought of that and refrained from posting it. Great minds run in similar gutters. Edison (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Ankle length riding boots, paddock boots, jodpur boots and Chelsea boots, elastic-sided, sound and look like the idea of "spring-sided" or "spring" boots. I like them for casual wear in winter but people identify them as riding boots, though I don't ride). Nice gag, Julia Rossi (talk) 02:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

US Capitol Trolley Car

Is there information about this on Wikipedia? [15][16] It seems like something that someone would obsess over (like I would like to), but I can't seem to find anything. Does it have a more common name? My google-fu is failing. - cohesion 16:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

United States Capitol Subway System ? Nanonic (talk) 16:55, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I think that is the public subway, this one looks like it's some sort of congressional-only transportation? - cohesion 17:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The article states that this is not for the use of the general public unless escorted, and the first website in the external links section contains a photo very similar to the first you provided here. Nanonic (talk) 17:53, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Oops, you're right. I saw that picture and didn't move on. I was looking for one exactly like the linked one, and the flickr one. I guess they have different types of cars. Thanks! - cohesion 21:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

When did it become necessary to have an escort on this system? I know I rode it unescorted in the early 90's. Rmhermen (talk) 20:57, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

When the government got all paranoid after 9/11. There also was a time when any person could just walk into the Capitol building and take a look around the public spaces like the rotunda and such. Now, there's a new "visitor's center" that is publicly accessable, while the main building is generally closed off to the public (a BAD IDEA in a democracy, if you ask me...). However, I don't think the Capitol Subway system has ever been truly a "public" subway. While I suspect that no one at the time asked you for credentials in order to ride it back then, it's also not like its the sort of subway people just use to travel around DC. Seeing as it is only accessible from the interiors of buildings which themselves have security controls, its likely that only those who have business between the Capitol and one of the congressional office buildings will be riding that subway. If you are in a suit and carrying a briefcase, and look like you know where you are going, its likely no one is going to stop you and ask you a lot of questions... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I can attest that before 9/11, it was very easy for members of the public to wander around and below Capital Hill. The subway system had cars reserved for "members (of Congress) only," and during votes it may have been off-limits to the general public. But I rode on it many times in the mid-90s. A particularly wistful story -- when I was on a high-school trip to DC, I was wandering around the Capitol building trying to get to the rotunda before it closed. A security guard asked me with a wink, "You want to get to the rotunda?" He took me around some back doors and said "Here you go!" I was the only person there. Just me and the dome and the paintings for about five minutes before another security guard came around and said, "Um, you know this is closed, right?" Nowadays they'd probably shoot me on sight. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

That matches my experience in the '60s; I was just a kid, wandering freely around the Capitol basement (as well as the various office buildings.) Nobody looked at me twice. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In those days, there were guards to shoo civilians off the trolley so Senators and Representatives could ride. Edison (talk) 07:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Imported Oil for India

Does anyone know if India gets imported crude oil? How much imported crude oil does India get? Sonic99 (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

List of countries by oil imports says 2 million barrels a day but it's estimated as of 2004 which is quite old. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 18:38, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Where is India getting its crude oil from? Is Burma supplying some crude oil to India?Sonic99 (talk) 21:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

India imports around 70% of its crude requirements from around 30 different countries. Of the imports, around 71-72% comes from Middle East, 16-17% from Africa, 4-5% from South and Central America and 4-5% from South East Asia. India does not import import crude from Myanmar, though there are talks to tap its natural gas. Chancemill (talk) 10:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This source (http://www.bp.com/), with a little data manipulation, says production is only 85% of imports. This site (https://sdbs.adb.org/sdbs/index.jsp) says imports were 142.4 million metric tons in 2006. The largest share of imports coming from an OPEC member was from the UAE that year.DOR (HK) (talk) 05:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I heard that there are pirates hijacking vessels in the Gulf of Aden. I don't know how far the pirates would go out to the sea to hijack tankers and vessels. Would that have any impact on the price of oil imports in India?Sonic99 (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

There will be a definite impact. The premium paid on shipping insurance has shot up due to increasd piracy, and there are reports that liners are actively considering moving around the Cape of Good Hope, instead of moving through the Gulf of Aden and that adds to your shipping cost. Besides, traded oil prices at their sources also went up with the news of Sirius Star being hikacked.

However, if the impact of all this is going to be a $4-5 increase in oil price imports for India, it is still no match for the downward pressure from the economic downturn. Crude is below $50 - and thats one third of what it was three months ago. 220.225.217.2 (talk) 09:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Chad

In Chad, what has more native speakers, as a first language, French or Arabic?. Referenced statisics only please.

I strongly expect it to be the same as the neighboring countries. The Christian population will speak French. The Muslim population will speak Arabic. Most of the country is Muslim. Because both French and Arabic are official languages, I suspect that most people speak both fluently. -- kainaw™ 17:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It is actually Chadian Arabic (asked a Nigerian to see if he knew and, surprisingly, we have an article on it). -- kainaw™ 17:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if French is a mother tongue in Chad. Sure it's one of the official languages, but that's something different. -- 93.132.170.2 (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Ethnologue figures from the 1993 census give 754,590 native speakers of Chadian Arabic and only 3,000 native speakers of French. According to their figures, Arabic and Ngambay (on which we don't even have an article) both have around 750,000 native speakers, and are the most widely spoken first languages. Warofdreams talk 22:15, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

We have the Ngambay stub now. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 17:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Izhevsk

I just saw this picture on the Commons main page, and I was wondering how many faces this building has. But our article Izhevsk has under § Remarkable buildings and structures only a TV mast. Anybody knows more about it? — Sebastian 18:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Monetary values compared between 1918 and 2008

I am searching for information about how much $10,000 in 1918 would be worth today. My history students are learning about the alien and sedition act and part of that was a $10,000 fine and 20 years in jail for violations. They asked me how much that would be in today's money. I gave them a guesstimate, but would like to know actual if there is such information available.72.36.61.215 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC).

According to this [[17]] site, and assuming you mean USD, it would be worth US$218,760 today.NByz (talk) 20:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Is that in purchasing power parity or just value compared against a standard like gold? SDY (talk) 20:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

It's using DoL CPI, so it would be "changes in the price level of an average urban consumer's basket of goods." NByz (talk) 20:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem, there, though, is that the contents of the basket will have changed considerably. How does one compare a 50 pound sack of flour with granola bars ? StuRat (talk) 00:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Quality and income disparity (both within and across countries) are major factors in practical measures of inflation using a price index. The most appropriate way of determining how much $10,000 in 1918 would be equivalent to in this context would be to find the average wage of the type of people to whom this law most likely applies. Because hours worked would likely be different, you'd have to include a scaling factor for that (quality of life or labour/leisure tradeoff). Using the ratio of the fine to that adjusted wage as a multiplier, you could scale up the average wage of the person in the equivalent socio-economic group today. Unless I've forgotten anything, I think this should give you a pretty good idea of how a person today would view a fine like that. Lots of data though.NByz (talk) 01:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If you're saying to compare the number of hours worked then for a given amount of money versus now, I can see one problem with that. Whereas now we buy close to 100% of the things we need from our wages, back then many people mostly grew their own food, sewed their own clothes, cooked their own food, built their own houses, bartered with neighbors, etc., so they only earned cash for a few "extras" they couldn't make for themselves. So, let's say you decide that $10,000 is a subsistence wage now, and $100 was back then. That doesn't mean that prices went up 100 times, though, because the $10,000 is to pay for everything you need to live, while the $100 is only for a small portion of the things needed to live, the rest being provided by the non-cash economy. StuRat (talk) 16:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Weren't the Alien and Sedition Acts passed in 1798? bibliomaniac15 21:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Awami League, Bangladesh Nationalist Party, Indian National Congress, Bharatiya Janata Party, Pakistan Muslim League, Pakistan Peoples Party

Is there a source or a data where it shows how much percentage is when it comes six major political parties in South Asia?: relationship between Awami League and Indian National Congress relationship between Awami League and Bharatiya Janata Party relationship between Awami League and Pakistan Muslim League relationship between Awami League and Pakistan Peoples Party relationship between Bangladesh Nationalist Party and Indian National Congress relationship between Bangladesh Nationalist Party and Bharatiya Janata Party relationship between Bangladesh Nationalist Party and Pakistan Muslim League relationship between Bangladesh Nationalist Party and Pakistan Peoples Party —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.55.4 (talk) 22:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Could you elaborate the question a little? Relationship in what sense? comparison of size or bilateral relations between the parties in question? Generally, i think these parties have rather little contact between each other. --Soman (talk) 18:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Shia Muslim Pakistan

I know there was a question like this one but it didn't give a full answer with data and stats. I want to know that which branch of Shia Islam do they follow and which provincial capital cities have significant numbers of Shia Muslims? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.55.4 (talk) 22:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

In most regions of the Muslim world (other than Yemen), it's fairly safe to assume that the majority of Shi`ites willl be Twelvers... AnonMoos (talk) 11:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

November 20

stock movements

Where can I find a source listing the largest stock movements within the last 15 minutes? The reason I ask is because I'm trying to find stocks at the moment where there is the greatest disparity between Yahoo finance quotes (which are 15 minutes delayed) and actual prices. Thanks, --Thegoodearth (talk) 02:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know of a "real time" web site except for those where you are a registered trader. If you have a trading account with a discount broker, for example, you may get "real time" quotes there. ៛ Bielle (talk) 03:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of real-time quotes. For example, Google has real-time quotes for NYSE and NASDAQ (http://www.google.com/help/stock_disclaimer.html). --Thegoodearth (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you planning on cheating on a fantasy stock challenge by any chance? You know a lot of those fantasy challenges delay orders by 15-20 minutes to counter stuff like that. If you're asking for your own investment, almost any discount brokerage will offer free quotes. Many will offer NASDAQ level II free with a minimum number of trades per month.NByz (talk) 07:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Things like National Federation of the Blind v. Target Corporation

Anyone know about groups suing for the blind that they can't use things on computers? Like National Federation of the Blind v. Target Corporation. Firstly, people who are blind might not be able to buy much in actual shops because they can't enter pins for debit cards without telling their pin aloud, they can't sign for credit cards, and they can't see paper money so even if it had Braille dots or were different sizes, they'd not be able to detect obvious counterfeit money.

I'm just wondering about this because most websites don't work for blind users. Even so, almost no video games work for blind users, especially first person shooters. So couldn't the National Federation of the Blind sue every video game maker and just go crazy and cause trouble? Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 03:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

First off, the dollar bill controversy is a very serious issue (see Federal_Reserve_Note#Differentiation), and one which the federal government is consistently losing on in an ongoing lawsuit, considering that just about every other developed country has taken measures to make it possible for blind people to distinguish between different currency denominations, and that the U.S. Treasury is now constantly fiddling with the different dollar bills to introduce various anti-counterfeiting measures.

And with respect to websites, many blind people are kind of tired of website designers who impair simple text-based navigation of their websites in order to rely exclusively on rather pointless (i.e. visually glitzy, but rather empty from the content point of view) Shockwave Flash animations. It's been pointed out many times that it actually takes extra effort to make your website inaccessible to the blind... AnonMoos (talk) 04:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Many sighted people are also rather tired of such website designers. DuncanHill (talk) 14:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I second that. There's nothing more frustrating than using a web site or desktop app where the developers went out of their way to make it less usable. 216.239.234.196 (talk) 15:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I would hope that eventually most people would go to sites which are basic HTML and loaded with content, like Weather Undergound's page: [18] instead of overly complex pages like are found at Weather.com: [19]. Computer screen reader programs have no problem with these type of basic HTML pages. Some sites offer the choice of "dancing babies" or basic HTML, but unfortunately, they start with the dancing babies first. StuRat (talk) 21:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

See Reductio ad absurdum... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:13, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The basic premise needs challenging. Blind people have been using paper money for a very long time; there are computer attachments that will read aloud text; and there are quite a lot of us (sighted and otherwise) who don’t need to look at keypads or keyboards to type in numbers. I don’t mean to trivialize the challenges society presents to the blind, but many of the ones listed in the original question don’t seem to be the ones most in need of attention. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the U.S. government currently has no meaningful answer as to how blind people should know that they're getting the correct change in bills back after making a purchase, other than "Depend on the kindness of strangers"... AnonMoos (talk) 11:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe there are portable readers that can give the denomination of bills. After all, this technology has existed for a long time in machines that accept bills. Once the blind determine the denomination of each bill, they have different techniques to keep track of them, like folding different denominations differently. StuRat (talk) 20:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the machines which are truly portable do not seem to be very reliable and robust, and using the machines creates a socially awkward situation where a blind person has to hold up the checkout line while waiting for each bill to be verified by the machine. The much more sensible and reliable solution would be to simply add something like the Canadian currency tactile feature to U.S. currency bills, instead of forcing each blind person to carry around a machine and hold up lines... AnonMoos (talk) 01:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

We have a very simple way of helping blind & partially-sighted people tell different denominations apart in the UK. The different denominations are different sizes (and different colours), and one can get a simple ruler with braille markings corresponding to the different notes. It is a shame that American technology isn't quite up to our level yet ;) DuncanHill (talk) 22:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There's also a feelable section of the note that allows differentiation by touch alone. Algebraist 22:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Back to the OPs question. My shallow understanding is that the governing legislation in the US is Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 which I understand says, you cannot discriminate on grounds of disability in a number of specified areas - Employment, Public Services (and public transportation), Public Accommodations (and Commercial Facilities) & Telecommunications. By my reading, video games would fall outside its scope.

Of interest, the UK counterpart, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, has two components outlawing less favourable treatment for a reason related to a disabled person's disability; and failure to make a "reasonable adjustment" when providing access to goods, facilities, services and premises. Under this legislation, I would guess a videogame maker would argue that it is unreasonable to expect a game of hand-eye coordination to be adapted for the blind. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

places duties on service providers and requires "reasonable adjustments" to be made when providing access to goods, facilities, services and premises.

• I'd generally think that most of the web would violate blind disability laws due to CAPTCHAs. However, I suppose a blind person could buy the software some people living in China sell that reads the hardest CAPTCHAs 99% of the time as opposed to the 4% success rate of humans on the hardest ones (e.g. Gmail captcha). As for the other thing, like how Target was sued, I'm surprised auto makers aren't sued because it's rare to find an auto-maker with a website that isn't pure flash. Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 05:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that the best captcha breakers as used by spam merchants use humans as backup, e.g. by directing it to some human wanting to enter a porn site or a farm of cheap third world workers. Dmcq (talk) 18:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Well quite a number of CAPTCHAs have audio alternatives nowadays. Others request you contact an admin, including wikimedia Special:Captcha/help, although that would still be a bit annoying and is liable to take longer. Indeed the contact an admin thing I've seen since the early day of CAPTCHAs. I do seem to recall one CAPTCHA breaker marketing their service at the blind although I suspect that was more of a cover then anything. Incidentally I've sometimes found it easier just to use the audio CAPTCHAs for Gmail. Alternatively zooming in works well too Nil Einne (talk) 14:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Source for military decoration citations

I'd like to add my father to the list of MC recipients. I have copies of the original documents submitted for the award, but would like to know how these should be referenced.Trekman53 (talk) 06:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

WP doesn't have a list of MC recipients . The Military Cross page only mentions a few highly significant recipients. The "list" is actually a category: a method of sorting existing pages, all of which need to meet general notability requirements. Consequently, there's nowhere for you to "add" your father. If he qualifies for a page of his own, then you will need a number of reliable sources to establish his notability. (Notability (people) suggests that someone is notable if "the person has received a notable award or honour", which seems to qualify your father, although you'll probably want a bit more to back it up.) Regarding his MC, it would be important to cite an accessible source, rather than his papers which only you have access to. What country is he from? Try the following databases: Australia, NZ, UK, Canada. Or these google books. You also might find someone at WikiProject Orders, Decorations, and Medals who can help. Gwinva (talk) 07:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Also note WP:MILMOS#NOTE, which suggests that winning a Military Cross is, by itself, not quite enough to warrant an article on the winner. This is because, for many of these military heroes, winning the award is just about all of the information we would be able to verify about them using reliable sources, which would make for not very good encyclopedia articles. —Kevin Myers 08:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In which case, why not have a "List of MC holders" as a page? -- SGBailey (talk) 11:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The MC is a third level award, presented to thousands of British and Commonwealth soldiers; it is comparable to the U.S. Army Distinguished Service Medal. We generally only maintain lists for the highest level awards such as the Medal of Honor (3,446 recipients) or the Victoria Cross (1,353 recipients). --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Afro-american male crime.

Why is a black male 6 times more likely to enter a correctional facilty than his white counterpart? (US department of Justice)

First you need to control for factors that we know contribute to the likelihood of criminal activity like socioeconomic status and geographic location (urban vs. rural). You need to take out all the known confounding variables before you can explain a group difference.--droptone (talk) 13:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Most likely due to a combination of social and cultural factors. Firstly males are more likely to take part in criminal activity than females. Secondly black males are more likely to be in poverty which is linked to crime. Thirdly black males are more likely to be educated to a lower level of standard, which is also linked to crime. They aren't more likely to committ a crime because they a black, it is much more complex than that. The problem here is that white and black are used as synonyms for rich and poor/educated and not educated/stable family and non-stable family etc. etc. In short, i've never been a fan of this kind of statement because it simplifies a complex question (the cause of crime). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 13:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I recall some research on the same question in the UK, during the 1980s, purely about interaction with the police and judiciary. It went something like: more likely to be stopped by police , more likely to be arrested after being stopped, more likely to be charged after arrest, more likely to be found guilty at trial, and more likely to be given a custodial sentence after being found guilty. It all adds up, or rather, multiplies. William Avery (talk) 13:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the question, it simply stated a fact and asked for the reason. Let's look at a specific example of cocaine use. White defendants are likely to have snorted cocaine, but have a job and family support, so are likely to be sentenced to drug treatment programs with a suspended sentence. Black defendants are likely to have smoked crack, be unemployed, homeless, without family support, and have committed other crimes to get drug money. Under those circumstances, hard time is a likely result. StuRat (talk) 20:43, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Poverty, culture, education, families, bias in the justice system. Each of these demonstrably real aspects combine in different ways for the final raw statistical outcome. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the reasons above, there could also be genetic factor. 67.184.14.87 (talk) 05:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, there certainly is a genetic factor on the male part, in that having a Y chromosome leads to higher testosterone levels which increase aggressiveness and can lead to criminal behavior. I know of no evidence of any genetic factor leading to crime based on race, however. StuRat (talk) 05:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if there were, what credible entity would publish it? —Tamfang (talk) 06:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

There are probably some genetic factors relating to crime but there's no evidence that it is clustered around the particular probabilistic prevalence of genes which we call "race" (which is a concept with a rather flimsy genetic definition anyway). There's really very little evidence of genetic factors even relating to crime—things like XYY syndrome would be your best bet but even that has very poor correlation when you get down the numbers of it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I knew a black man in the U.S. whose parents both had Ph.D.'s and lived in a northern state. He attended great schools and got a scholarship to college, where he got a Ph.D. and pursued a professional career. He benefitted from then-prevalent racial preference in graduate school admissions, which assumed that "black=disadvantaged," when he was actually priviledged socioeconomically and in educational opportunities in high school and undergraduate study. But if income and education are controlled, there is likely no significant effect of race left in a proper statistical study. Edison (talk) 07:17, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The obvious solution to all the Affirmative Action controversy is to offer full financial assistance to all university students with need, regardless of race. If everyone who qualifies for college can go, regardless of economic status, that will help out poor blacks, Hispanics, whites, etc., and also help out the nation by increasing the skilled worker base. StuRat (talk) 15:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Your situation would make some sense if everyone in the country went to the same university and all universities were considered equal but they don't and they aren't. Affirmative Action has little to do with financial assistance. In my opinion (and the opinion of many experts) college is far too late to start trying to rectify educational disparities, in any case. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 19:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Affirmative Action isn't aimed at financial aide, now. I'm saying that it should be. The single largest barrier to minorities is not being able to afford college. This is both a barrier when tuition comes due and far earlier, when they do the calculation that "I won't ever be able to pay for college anyway, so why bother studying and getting good grades in school ?". Nothing is worse for a student's future prospects than a sense of hopelessness. Thus, my strategy would try to rectify the situation before college, while the current policy does not. StuRat (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I remember reading something from a teacher who explained that the problem is culture. Many black kids don't want to excel at school because they view this as 'acting white'. I'm not a teacher so I don't know but tf this is true, that's sad because black people are never going to get ahead. In fact, I was out with a latina the other day who's family didn't associate with her because she was "too uppity, too white". 67.184.14.87 (talk) 21:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

There's a city in Michigan (Kalamazoo, I think), where every child is promised college tuition if they can graduate high school and get accepted into college. School performance increased dramatically, especially among minorities, as an immediate result. StuRat (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

guitar versus piano

I have a few questions about standard, 6-string guitars, as opposed to standard pianos.

1. Is a six-string guitar, like a pinao, EXACTLY a standard size, I mean a pianist can sit down and play any old piano, after at most like 5 seconds, though if a concert pianist is preparing for a recital in front of a huge audience, they might practice with the instrument in question the day before, or even for a couple of days (as I understand)... this is EXACTLY at odds with a violinist, who would take a REAL long time to get used to a particular violin. So, which is a guitar? A visiting guitarist played for us informally at my school, and when a string broke, someone saved her some time by handing her his own guitar, which she just continued playing on after I think changing the tuning. Is this normal? Are guitars played by feel, and pretty much feel the same, are interchangeable?

2. Playing by feel: there are many blind pianists, among the most famous pop ones Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles both spring immediately to mind. What about blind guitarists, are there any who receive just as much recognition as these two pianists? If not, why not -- do you really need to look down as you're chaning chords, etc... a lot of rock musicians totally don't look down at all!

Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.160.199 (talk) 13:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In regard to question 2, there have been several famous blind guitarists, some of whom are listed in the article on blind musicians - Blind Willie McTell is probably the most famous. Warofdreams talk 14:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

All guitars are pretty different, a steel-string acoustic guitar is much different than a classical guitar for example, and steel-string guitars have lots of variations in neck length and string size and the shape of the soundbox. But the difference is not so great that anyone with a bit of skill, maybe not a beginner, could handle any guitar. There are lots of blind guitarists, check out Category:Blind bluesmen for example. Jeff Healey is one famous rock/jazz guitarist; he just died recently. He had a unique way of playing the guitar on his lap. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

TO answer both questions:

1. Scale length on guitars is not exactly formalized. An electric guitar may, for example, feature scale lengths of anywhere from 22.5 inches, as in the Fender Mustang (officially called a 3/4 scale instrument by Fender; though this length is NOT 3/4ths the size of a "full sized" Fender guitar) up to 25.5 inches on a standard Strat. The Gibson Les Paul falls right in the middle of this range, at 24.75 inches. However, it should be noted that these differences do not make guitars non-interchangable. I can pick up any guitar, as long as it is tuned to standard tuning, (i.e. EADGBe) and play it without really looking at it. Heck, I was able to play a baritone Ukelele (tuned DGBe) without even trying because the tuning is exactly the same as a Guitar, and that instrument is 1/2 the size of my guitar! The point is, scale length is non standard, but any competant guitar player can play any guitar tuned to standard tuning without trouble.
2. Stevie Wonder played piano/organ/keyboards in performance, but he was quite an accomplished musician in the studio. Stevie could play quite well on guitar, electric bass, horns, and most notably drums (theat great drum track on Superstition was played by him on the recording). That he could play the drums so well is even more impressive than EITHER piano or guitar, since he did not have constant contact with the drums while playing! As to other famous blind guitarists, besides the aforementioned Healy and McTell, Doc Watson and Jose Feliciano come to mind as very accomplished and very well acclaimed blind guitarists. Watson himself was an inovator on guitar; he is widely credited with developing a style of plectrum play known as "flatpicking" which would form the basis for the pick-based lead guitar work that predominates modern popular music. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 14:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it's pretty common to be able play any guitar without having to look at the fretboard and "re-size" the spacing between fingers. You may have to adjust your thinking if you normally use a feel for the space between the body of the guitar and a certain place on the fretboard (like the 12th fret) to shoot straight to that fret without looking. That can be hard on a guitar that you don't know well. The main thing I always find challenging when playing different electric guitars isn't the fret spacing, it's:

1) The height of the bridge. If you're used to using the palm of your hand to mute notes, a difference in the height of the bridge will feel awkward, and you may not mute cleanly. Also, I find that I often anchor my pinky when alternate-picking on anything but the high-e string. A bridge in a different place may reduce your pinky's helpful role as an anchor.

2) Spacing between the strings. Classical guitars often have their strings spaced further apart for example. This isn't a problem for strumming, but can be awkward for alternate-picking. (They're great for finger-picking though)

3) Upper-fret access. On some electrics you have to put your hand in an awkward position to get to the frets above say... the 17th.

4) Thickness of the neck. I have gotten quite used to a very rounded 50's style neck. It feels weird for me to play fast on a skinnier neck. NByz (talk) 17:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

With regard to the main heading, pianos win, because they burn longer and provide more BTU of heat. Edison (talk) 07:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

For blind achievement there's indigenous Australian musician Geoffrey Gurrumul Yunupingu, blind from birth, who plays a right-hand-strung guitar left-handed. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:44, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Twins as heir to a throne

If twins were born as heir to a throne, what would happen? Would they both be monarchs? I have never heard about such a case. Has it ever hapened that twins were born to a throne? That it, twin brothers? Is there any historical case of this? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that the first-born of the twins would succeed to the throne. DuncanHill (talk) 14:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In the twelfth century the count of Meulan had twin sons, Robert and Waleran. They made a special arrangement so that Waleran inherited Meulan and Robert inherited his father's English titles (since Robert the elder was a Norman with possessions in France and England). Similarly, and around the same time, the twin sons of Eustace Grenier, Walter and Gerard, succeeded to his two different possessions of Sidon and Caesarea during the crusades. I don't know of any twins born to a king who only possessed one territory, though. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Prince Fushimi Hiroyasu (not really an heir to the throne) and Prince Faisal of Jordan had twin daughters. Prince Aleksandar Karadjordjevic (of Serbia, not currently a monarchy) has twin sons. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There is also the legend of the Man in the Iron Mask in 17th century France. One of the allegations on this famous prisoner's identity is that he was a twin brother of Louis XIV who was whisked away shortly after birth to prevent a tricky succession issue. Alexandre Dumas used that legend as the basis for one of the sequels to the Three Musketeers (The Vicomte de Bragelonne. --Xuxl (talk) 15:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This question was discussed a bit at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom#Hypothetical scenario. It's the one who's born first who becomes the heir, in the British system. Other countries may have different rules. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

While the OP did say twin brothers, I should point out that if it were fraternal twins and one were female the other male, it doesn't matter which one is older based on current succession law. The same of course for any older daughter when there is a male heir Nil Einne (talk) 01:42, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it depends on the country, the OP did not specify to which Monarchy he was refering. Many of the modern monarchies have changed succession law to pass the throne to the first born, irrespective of sex. For examples, Sweden since 1980, The Netherlands since 1983, Norway since 1990, and Belgium since 1991 all use a strict, sex-neutral primogeniture to determine inheritance of the throne. Denmark has passed the change very recently, but is waiting for approval from Parliament. The remaining European monarchies, those being Britain, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, and Spain, still use some form of male-preference primogeniture.--Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC

Uh, perhaps I should have made this clearer but I was responding to JackofOz who referred explicility to the British system (hence why I mentioned current succession law). Or more accurately the commonwealth realm succession system since they are all the same at the moment. Since JackofOz didn't address other countries I didn't see much point bringing other countries into it Nil Einne (talk) 10:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me the Bourbon family tree has recent twins somewhere, but maybe they were/are not near a throne. A level or two lower, Wikipedia mentions two or three British peerages that have passed from a twin to the other. —Tamfang (talk) 06:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like twins inheriting the throne can create quite a(n) heiry situation. StuRat (talk) 01:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

A better pun has already been made in the title of a tongue-in-cheek fantasy novel: Split Heirs. —Tamfang (talk) 07:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Child monarch in modern age

I know about cases in history with children as monarchs. But how would it behandled in Europe in 2008? Would it be accepted with, say, a seven year old as king in Europe today? Are they any rules for how this would be handled in modern times? When did Europe have its last child monarch? Has any democracy had a child monarch? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:19, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

See Regent... AnonMoos (talk) 14:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

And for The UK see Regency Acts. DuncanHill (talk) 15:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Simeon II of Bulgaria, who reigned from 1943 to 1946 and acceded to the throne as a 6-year old, is a (relatively) recent case in Europe. He's had an interesting post-royal career as well. --Xuxl (talk) 15:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Witch trials in 19th century Latin America

I have heard somewhere, that they were witch trials in Latin America in the 19th century. Is this true? If so, where and when? And if not, what does the rumor say, and how did it come about?--85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if the dates are what you want but this talks about colonial witch hunts in South America. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Incest, bigamy and homsexuality in L'ancien regime

I would like to know, what the method of execution was for: Incest, bigamy and homosexuality in the l'ancien regime, (that is, France before 1789). If anyone can answer this, or at least recomend a link, I would be gratefull, as I do need this information. Regards--85.226.45.121 (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

One famous case (wasn't formally executed, though): Jean_V_of_Armagnac -- AnonMoos (talk) 14:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, that was interesting! But I would like to know the method of execution, particularly in the 17th and 18th century. Does anyone know? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 15:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

At that time period commoners were usually hung and nobles were beheaded with an axe (which required a skilled executioner). That's why the guillotine was so popular during the French Revolution, it made it possible for even commoners to be beheaded, which, to the French, apparently made the executions acceptable. An exception existed for religious crimes where more brutal punishments, like burning at the stake, were common. However, note that commoners were not held to the same moral standards as nobles, and wouldn't be as likely to be charged for those type of crimes. The attitude would have been "they're just stupid, filthy peasants, you can't expect them to behave like us anymore than you could expect a dog to have morals". StuRat (talk) 20:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Minor quibble. Pictures are hung. People are hanged. Gwinva (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe both are correct. I find 23K Google matches on "hung by the neck" and 39K Ghits on "hanged by the neck". StuRat (talk) 23:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for an interesting reply. Would you say that the method of burning would be used for the three acts mentioned above? Would they be seen as religious crimes? Or what method would be used for these particular cases? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 20:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

No, "religious crimes" means anything which challenged the authority of the Church. Of course, if someone actually claimed that God was in favor of incest, bigamy, or homosexuality, then that would indeed be seen as a threat and dealt with severely. However, if they just committed the acts, that doesn't challenge the authority of the Church. If a noble were convicted of those acts they would likely be beheaded with an axe. If a commoner were convicted (which is unlikely, because the authorities didn't concern themselves with the morals of peasants), they would likely have been hung. StuRat (talk) 22:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe in France it was beheading with a sword, not beheading with an axe. Isn't that why Anne Boleyn sent to France for a swordsman, so that her execution wouldn't be botched? - Nunh-huh 23:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In Spain, (and Italy, I believe) homosexuals, bigamists, and people who comitted incest were burned alive at the stake. These acts were considered to be heresy - they were forbidden in the bible, and therefore by christianity. But perhaps it was different in France.--85.226.45.121 (talk) 17:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

From what i have read, homosexual acts were not widely prosecuted and most executions used homosexuality as only one grounds for punishment. Remember that Foucault's argument about homosexuality makes this a difficult retrospective project. How do 1789 concepts of homosexual sex differ from our modern conceptions? That's a hard question, and a vital one to answer before really being able to approach an answer. I would suggest that a good starting place for research, if you have not looked at these already, would be to look at the Napoleon Codes which are considered to have decriminalized homosexuality in France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taranwandering (talk • contribs) 11:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have read that as well. what I wonder, however, is the method of execution for homsexuals who was executed- even if they are few. And I also wonder about the method of execution for incest and bigamy. Waht does the law books say about punishements for these acts in 17th and 18th century France? Even if people were not often executed for this, there must have been at least a formal rule as to how they were to be executed if they were. Thank you for the answers I have so far!--85.226.45.121 (talk) 13:33, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

You may find the following quotes from Fone, Byrne (2000). Homophobia: A History. New York: Henry Holt & Co. ISBN 0-312-42030-7. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) useful:

p. 143-4: "In France, alleged outbreaks of sodomy occasioned the introduction of a law in Orléans about 1280. Li Livres de Jostice et de Plet applied to both males and females, demanding that a man 'who has been proved to be a sodomite must lose his testicles, and if he does it a second time, he must lose his member, and if he does it a third time, he must be burnt.' Women too, were to be mutilated and executed." "In 1261 the Bishop of Amiens asserted that he, not the city's burghers, had the sole right to judge cases of sodomy. A royal decree settled the matter in favor of the civil authorities...[indicating] that judgement of sodomites was in fact passing from ecclesiastical to civil courts." "In 1283 a French civil law code, Coutumes de beauvaisis, declared that those convicted of "sodomiterie" were to forfeit their property and die by burning."

p. 214: "In Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, and Geneva from 1450 into the 1700s, nearly sixteen thousand people were tried for sodomy...only about four hundred are known to have been executed."

p. 224: "Laws had criminalized sodomy in France and Spain in the early thirteenth centtury, in Italian cities like Florence, Siena, Perugia, and Venice in the fourteenth century, in the Holy Roman Empire in 1532, in England in 1533, in Prussia in 1620, and in Denmark in 1683; in the Netherlands, capital sentences against sodomites were carried out in the late seventeenth century. Most laws against sodomy demanded the death penalty, sometimes for a single infraction; the usual means of execution was burning, or sometimes hanging. "

p. 265: "[In France], the Revolutionary Constituent Assembly decriminalized sodomy in 1791. There had been earlier intimations of change; the Parlement of Paris, which had convicted so many in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, executed only a handful of persons for sodomy in the eighteenth, the last in 1783....In 1810, the Napoleonic Code eliminated all penalties for homosexual practice throughout Napoleon's European empire. " - Outerlimits (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I found that very useful, thank you. That answers my question about homosexuals, I am truly greateful! I have the same question for incest and bigamy. Perhpas someone can answers that as well? --85.226.45.121 (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Sub-districts elections

Who are elected by the people in the Bangladesh Sub-Districts(upazila) elections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.204.103.45 (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Who are 'latinos'

In the US, 'latinos' are only latin-americans or do someone also include French, Spanish, etc.? 80.58.205.37 (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Latino discusses some dictionary definitions, along with references 5 and 6 (from government agencies) that define the term in the way that I think you're looking for. NByz (talk) 18:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

What is the best evidence that some Gitmo prisoners were sold to us the US?

Hi all,

What is the best evidence, if any, that some/many of the prisoners in Guantanamo were sold to us the US for bounties? There are many reports from released detainees, such as [20] and [21], but is there any evidence besides their reports?

Thanks!

— Sam 63.138.152.238 (talk) 22:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Us? I wasn't aware that Wikipedia had any prisoners at Guantanamo at all. Algebraist 22:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't be disingenuous. It's perfectly clear from the links provided which country the OP is referring to. A simple reminder to be country-specific would have sufficed. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 22:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Apologies. Internet-stress levels clearly getting too high; time for break. Algebraist 22:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind, I suggest us = U.S. (the rest of us are prisoners of the pedia for no bucks at all) Julia Rossi (talk) 23:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

<grumble> I don't call my government "us". </grumble> Tamfang (talk) 06:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sam, mostly the papers are sourcing claims by the prisoners (and quoting each other) but in this article[22] there ref to a book by historian James Carroll (“House of War”, Houghton Mifflin) and the article's writer has an email for contact – who knows, you might find out more. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 23:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that most of the "evidence" for it that is in the public realm comes from detainee accounts. The US government classifies such things (making it quite hard to get details regarding detainee treatment from sources other than the detainees accounts, but in many other areas they have been corroborated through other sources). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

There have long been press reports that militias were turning over foreigners in Afghanistan, as well as Afghan enemies, to the U.S. for bounties. The BBC in 2002 reported that family members of Gitmo prisoners, like Kalid Al Udah, a Colonel in the Kuwait Air Force, and a self proclaimed friend of America, said his son was captured by bounty hunters and imprisoned at Gitmo. Udah claimed his son was working for a charity on the Afghan-Pakistan border when he was captured by bounty hunters who sold him to the Americans. This is not really a detainee account.Recall that the detainees are locked behind chain link fences and are not generally allowed any contact with the outside world. To prove the man's guilt in a court of law, and to show the limitless captivity ordered by Bush is not something out of Kafka, the captors might produce evidence and witnesses of the son's guilt, to demonstrate in secret to a judge, at the very minimum, that they have more "evidence of his guilt" than a receipt for a bounty paid to the Afghans who turned him over, and the assurance that bounty hunters never make mistakes. CBS News said that the U.S dropped leaflets in Afghanistan "offering $20,000 to Afghans who turned in an alleged terrorist. 'Many of these people were turned over in a bounty hunt, swept up in a bounty hunt, nothing more than that,' says Wilner. 'A lot of there people down here are innocent. They were picked up by mistake.'"(Wilner is a Washington DC attorney). The "best evidence" is locked in safes at the White House, the Justice Department, and Gitmo, and Bush has argued that he is under no obligation to demonstrate to any court, or any tribunal, anywhere, that there is any evidence of guilt of the captives. The quality of the evidence is thus unknown.A longstanding principle of justice in Western civilization is that the captor must prove the guilt of the captive, not that the captive must prove he is innocent, without access to counsel, and without the right to challenge evidence and witnesses against him. Edison talk) 04:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all very much for the replies, they help a lot. Also, apologies for the silly "us" in the original question -- it has since been edited. — Sam 63.138.152.238 (talk) 15:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

November 21

Security Council votes

According to the news story on our Main Page, the Security Council has voted unanimously to enlarge the peacekeeping force in the Congo.

This started me wondering, how often does the Securrity Council agree unanimously on a motion?

Is this uncommon? Is there a place to look at a record of Security Council votes?

Thanks, CBHA (talk) 06:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

They have a website here. It includes the text of all resolutions, and records of all meetings. Looking at those meetings, the vast majority of resolutions are passed unanimously (I think they tend to continue discussing them until they have everyone's support wherever possible). --Tango (talk) 10:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Remember that if any of the permanent members vote no, that's a veto. So they at the very least need to work out something which the permanent members are willing to abstain on at worst. And it's probably going to be rare that all 5 permanent members agree on something but one of the others doesn't. Nil Einne (talk) 10:54, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'd say that would be fairly common, except that it's known in advance that one will veto, so the vote is never called. StuRat (talk) 15:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

That's not what Nil said. Nil said that, given that the permanent members agree on something, it would be odd for a non-permanent member to vote against. I haven't checked, but I expect he's right: each non-permanent member is probably closely enough aligned to at least one permanent member not to want to uselessly vote against them. Algebraist 15:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah sorry for any confusion I didn't phrase my response very well. Note that this doesn't mean they don't contribute to the outcome and discussions, or that their views are completely ignored, it just means it's rare you're going to have the 5 permanent members who are diametrically opposed in many of areas agreeing on something while someone else on the council doesn't. World geo-politics suggests that. In other words while an important part of the process ultimately the permanent members have a lot more power and it makes sense to consider them in that light. (Of course when it does happen that a non-permanent member or even multiple members disagree, they'll likely usually try and resolve it unless it's always happening with the same member.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the veto, a United Nations Security Council resolution still needs a supermajority of nine to pass. Though I can't recall one at the moment, there have been rare cases where the permanent members have been in agreement but were blocked by a minority of non-permanent members.John Z (talk) 19:04, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

solution to the financial crisis

What would happen if the US government told China and Russia that the US will cancel hundreds of billions of dollars worth of debt they hold in Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae securities but as a friendly gesture they give both countries proportional shares in an entity that has exclusive rights to drill oil in Alaska for 30 years? And for the sake of the scenario we assume that China and Russia are content. Would that solve the problem? If not would it at least help solve the problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khmerempire (talk • contribs) 09:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Uh, your assumption seems a bit far fetched. According to Arctic Refuge drilling controversy "The United States Department of Energy estimates that ANWR oil production between 2018 and 2030 would reduce the cumulative net expenditures on imported crude oil and liquid fuels by an estimated $135 to $327 billion (2006 dollars),reducing the foreign trade deficit". It seems likely China and Russia would have to be dumb to accept even all Alaskan oil in exchange for hundreds of billions of dollars worth of debt Nil Einne (talk) 10:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I just realised my assumption here is also a little simplistic. That isn't the worth of the oil but how much it will reduce the trade deficit of the US. I presume US DOE recognises some of the money is going to flow out of the country. However I still think it's highly unlikely that Russia or China will be that interested in the oil (particularly given the fact the US is probably more likely to renege on the deal and that no one really knows how much is there) for hundreds of billions of dollars of debts Nil Einne (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why it would help at all. Couldn't the US government just take the drilling rights themselves and use the profit to service the debt? That would have exactly the same effect. --Tango (talk) 10:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The US already has drilling rights to most US oil wells (including off shore), and theoretically leases them to oil companies to do the drilling. The only prob is that the Bush administration failed to collect those revenues, intentionally, to help out their buddies in the industry (which is quite illegal, BTW). StuRat (talk) 15:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

If there's one thing that this crisis has shown us, it's that the US is still the 'flight to safety' beacon that it has been since WWII. The appreciation of the USD, the low-low treasury rates, they all suggest a global faith in the continuing productivity and safety of the US economy. As long as the US is able to keep this view alive, outpace the other major western economies in terms of absolute growth and technological innovation (over sufficiently long periods of time; I get the feeling the upcoming recession may change around the world order a bit in that regard in the near term) and protect it all with a military budget larger than the next 16 countries combined (and a political system that, even in the worst of times, almost guarantees continuity and stability), this view will persist. As long as this view persists, capital will flow to the US, holding down interest rates, cheap goods will flow from the developing world, holding back inflation and the US will be able to support a continued large trade deficit and foreign debt. It's only when this view changes that the massive foreign debt will - both literally and figuratively - become a massive liability.NByz (talk) 19:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise put: The US would be in big trouble if the large amount of wealth that China has accumulated via its' trade deficit WASN'T being invested in US-denominated debt!NByz (talk) 19:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

What, me worry? Who was it who said, if you owe the bank $1000, it's your problem, but if you owe it $1,000,000 (or whatever), it's the bank's problem? China can't apply too much pressure, lest it lose both its investment and its best customer. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

However, Chinese officials have let on that they recognize that this arrangement is unsustainable, and that they must find a way to break free of it, since it will lead inevitably to a loss of their investment through either an open default or a de facto default through monetization of the debt (i.e. printing money). A customer who keeps adding to his tab without ever paying up and whose livelihood is based on continually expanding debt is not really a merchant's best customer. The merchant has a strong incentive to attract customers who pay up, and the Chinese are finding such customers in the form of Chinese consumers and other export markets. The time will come when the Chinese write off the money the United States owes but cannot really pay. At that point, China will stop lending to the United States. Marco polo (talk) 03:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a concept in development economics about the cycle of indebtedness that countries tend to go through. They tend to start off as net debtors, then as they industrialize, become net lenders, then, as they develop a highly demanding middle class, become net debtors again, forcing them back to the beginning of the cycle. I'm sure we have an article on it, but I can't find it...NByz (talk) 04:13, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure China would write the debt off, they just wouldn't renew it as it matures. The US does pay its debt, it just does so by taking out new debt. If China stopped renewing the debt the US would have to borrow from elsewhere (probably at a higher interest rate - simple supply and demand). What effect that would have on the US economy and public finances, I don't know (it depends on how keen others are to buy the debt China isn't buying), it might just be a minor inconvenience (especially if China does so gradually) or it might cause the entire US economy to crash taking the rest of the world with it (China is likely to try and avoid that, although since it's happening at the moment anyway, all bets are off!). --Tango (talk) 19:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

They have a very nice symbiotic relationship. When a country has a trade surplus, it's by definition a net lender in the world. A country with a trade deficit is a net borrower. (It may save in terms of the 'capital account' or the 'financial account' though). As I mention above, as long as the US economy remains the best place for China to choose to save, the relationship will work just fine, making both partners better off. US policymakers just need to remember that they can't do anything (especially in terms of foreign policy) that will risk any of the things that make it such a great place to save. If the Chinese government were, despite knowing that the US was the best place to save, choose to save elsewhere (not 'renew the debt' or 'contribute to demand for US debt') as a punitive measure, there is a clear argument that it would make the people of China worse off than the people of the United States (although it would unambiguously make them both worse off!). Considering the political situation in China, and the high poverty rate, multiplying that 'worse off' factor through China's "utility function" (sorry, econ term again... sigh) would make that "worse off" factor relatively more severe (than in the US).NByz (talk) 20:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Land is more important than some mere cash. The USA's Federal Reserve can print all the money it wants, but it would just cause inflation, though not that much inflation since the US dollar is the world's reserve currency. The solution to the financial crisis can be found at: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ --Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 04:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The US dollar's position as a reserve currency means it can print more than it otherwise could, but I think it is already printing that extra money (if it weren't, there would be deflation since there would be a higher demand for US dollars than there were a supply for them), so it doesn't really help then deal with future problems (it does, however, give the US a significant form of income from seigniorage). --Tango (talk) 19:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Seigniorage is a tax too. It reduces the purchasing power of existing money. It's a tax on people who hold money as savings (rather than capital). The bank de-leveraging has, in fact, been acting to reduce the effective money supply (the banking money multiplier effect), and the last FOMC minutes actually mentioned the possibility of deflation is on the Fed's mind. But you're right, of course. By buying back government securities with 'shelf money', the fed has been increasing the actual M1 money supply throughout the recent financial crisis.NByz (talk) 23:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

So is this a workable idea? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khmerempire (talk • contribs) 22:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I think, to sum up what we discussed above, Tango and I pointed out that this would be just like a tax; a targeted tax, but a tax nonetheless (because of the opportunity cost). There isn't really a reason why this particular tax would be any better of a choice than any other: Say a portion of direct income taxes (across all industries). So the real question is whether or not it would be helpful to increase total taxation to pay off debt right now. We continued into a discussion of how the international financial system works, particularly the balance of payments identity which requires that a country with a trade surplus, like China, be a net accumulator of savings, like US T-Bills, and a country like the US, with a trade deficit be a net borrower. This suggests that, in order to finance a continued trade deficit, the US has to accumulate a large foreign debt in one way or another. It only makes sense that those that are willing to pay the most for it (offer the lowest rate) accumulate it.

So, in short, if the US wants to reduce foreign debt, they have to implement policies to increase domestic savings (including reducing the budget deficit) and thereby reduce consumption and narrow the trade deficit.NByz (talk) 23:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

And also encourage policies in China that are designed to help create a highly-consuming middle class. The more domestic demand in China, the smaller the surplus.NByz (talk) 23:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Trying to figure out the name of a classical music song

It's very simple - three ascending bars, repeated. Well a bit more complicated than that, but I don't know much about music, and that's the gist of it. Channel 10 (Australia) used it as the music for advertising the movie Flight 93 about a month ago. 58.161.194.134 (talk) 11:51, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Pachelbel (spelling)'s Canon in d? Bit of a stab in the dark but it's a widely used piece that repeats (or canonizes?) itself. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

If you mean three ascending notes, maybe the Moonlight Sonata or Barber's Adagio for Strings? -- BenRG (talk) 18:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep - it's Moonlight Sonata. Thanks. 58.161.194.134 (talk) 12:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I did see that movie, although I can't remember what music was played. If it had been the Moonlight, it would have stuck in my memory. Barber's Adagio sounds much closer to home; in the days after 9/11, it was played at symphony concerts around the world before their advertised programs. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Great Britain welfare

Is it possible to say that GB has a high level of social welfare provisions and a low level of contribution to these prov. by the citizens? My understanding is that the welfare system there is paid by taxes and that this is usually not considered (direct) contributions, right? Is that the intended meaning? That aside, is it true? High benefits, low cost? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.202.72.137 (talk) 17:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I assume you are talking about Great Britain ? At first I thought you meant George Bush, who is probably responsible for putting more people on welfare than anyone else. StuRat (talk) 17:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

How else would a welfare system be funded? You can call the taxes different things (eg. the UK has national insurance contributions which are basically just another tax which goes towards state pension, etc.), but it's still just tax. --Tango (talk) 18:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The only way to get a free lunch in a welfare system would be to increase the efficiency of the system by 1) reducing administrative overhead or 2) (Properly) allocating benefits to people who are in the most need first, then continuing out along the "marginal need" curve (sorry for the econ term...) by correctly identifying and re-ordering people who have an incentive to 'cheat' the system and hide their true preferences/abilities. Even maintaining large government savings (or, at least, low-cost borrowing room) to sufficiently fund a welfare system, like the national insurance you mentioned (or CPP or EI in canada and very much unlike, for example, underfunded social security in the US) crowds out private investment, imposing an extra cost (tax) on society. Tango is right. It's all just tax redistribution. NByz (talk) 20:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

There is the possibility of a government that has a significant income source of it's own, such as the oil wells in Kuwait. StuRat (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Which is equivalent to those wells being run by private companies with 100% corporation tax. I think pretty much all (if not absolutely all) government income can be viewed as a form of taxation. --Tango (talk) 23:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

No private company would operate oil wells (or anything else) under a 100% tax rate. This is an important distinction: taxes discourage whatever is taxed (with a 100% tax stopping it altogether), while other governmental sources of income do not. StuRat (talk) 01:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

When you nationalize an industry, you take the production decision away from a market. I think the point that Tango and I are trying to make is that even if a government 'owns' something like a direct investment in capital (like the oil wells) or a portfolio investment in securities, and uses the revenues to fund government expenditure, they're taking away or 'crowding out' an otherwise profitable free-market investment. This is a form of tax. Government could also choose to print more money to cover the program(s) but this ends up being a tax on holders of money.NByz (talk) 02:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not talking about nationalizing an industry either, as that means you don't allow private companies to operate in those industries. In the case of oil production, it's quite possible to have government production and private production simultaneously. I suppose that any form of production competes with other forms of production, but in a large world market like the petroleum industry, the effect of Kuwait's government production on world markets (and hence private oil production) is minimal. StuRat (talk) 07:28, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

While taxes do divert resources from market-driven allocation, market-driven allocation does not always maximize social utility, as recent financial debacles demonstrate. Marco polo (talk) 03:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the free market does just fine. It's the politicians who screw it up:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122298982558700341.html 67.184.14.87 (talk) 22:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep, government expenditure can often create value or increase utility be internalizing externalities, providing public goods or coordinating the private sector. Providing welfare services an example of the first two. People aren't going to quit their current job and move to one that better fits their because of changing skills, technology or economic structure if they are worried about their basic needs (just one example of a public good created by welfare systems).NByz (talk) 04:09, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, that's why we don't live in a state of anarchy - there are significant benefits to having certain things run centrally and that requires paying taxes. --Tango (talk) 13:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Only one company can drill a given oil well at a time, if that company is owned by the state then that's exactly equivalent to it being owned by a private company and taxed at 100% (with some law passed to force the company to stay in business). If it was a regular private company taxed at a reasonable rate then there would be profit entering the free market. Money going to the state instead of the free market is the very definition of tax. --Tango (talk) 13:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

"Some law passed to force the company to stay in business" at a 100% tax rate ? Sounds like communism to me. You would also need to seal the borders to prevent the owners of the company from escaping to a country where profits are allowed. StuRat (talk) 14:51, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Who cares about the owners? It's the management that actually run the company and they still get paid whatever the tax rate. Anyway, I'm not suggesting it as anything that would actually happen, it's just an equivalent situation financially to help people understand what's going on. --Tango (talk) 14:58, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that it's useful to compare something which does exist with something which can't exist (at least under capitalism). StuRat (talk) 15:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

There are actually many examples of this in most western countries. Industries that would otherwise be a natural monopoly are often allowed to operate as a monopoly, but with the government making both the production and pricing decisions. No profit incentive keeps the organization going, only legal mandate. Some utilities are still like this is the US, and many used to be. Crown corporations in Canada provide many examples of these. I am about to head over to Vancouver pretty soon actually, and I'll be taking a "BC Ferry" - the only ferry operator. The volume of ferry traffic wouldn't support two ferry operators, so a crown corpoation (technically a public-private partnership now...) exists. Another great example of this in almost every country is water distribution. Water is very important to us, and there tends to be a lot of fear around its cleanliness and continued distribution. For that reason, most city governments have an implicit monopoly on water distribution. They set the price, the quantity and take the proceeds into general revenue. If a government monopoly didn't provide the service, the private sector almost certainly would. All of the people, equipment and resources that the 'water distribution' department of the city use may as well be thought of as a private corporation with the legal requirement to keep operating. There is no profit incentive to produce more or less, and management just keeps working hard because, if they didn't, the mayor would replace them.NByz (talk) 18:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I always found it funny that water was provided like this, but we rely on the scary private sector to provide us with food distribution. What if, one day, it became no longer profitable to distribute food, for some reason? Would people flee the cities? Anyway, my point is that various levels of government provide many services (transportation, healthcare etc. etc.) that the private sector would, no doubt, provide.NByz (talk) 18:07, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

PS, [23] here are some examples of some explicit "state controlled companies" in the US. I would argue that any service, provided by the government, but that would also be provided to some degree by the private sector, can be thought of in this way. Even something as extreme as defense. If no national government provided military services, the free market would certainly organize a 'company' (what we normally think of as a for-profit organization; doesn't have to be a corporation) that provided defense services. Mafia organizations are examples of this. All of the customers pool their resources to provide something that no individual could adequately provide themselves. This is all any company does.NByz (talk) 18:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Distributing food and water will pretty much always be profitable. The demand is pretty much independent of price (at least, there is a lower limit to demand that is independent of price - there are non-essential uses of food and water that are price-dependant) until you get to the point where people have no choice but to starve, and that's a very extreme situation. In the UK, water is distributed privately (although in a heavily regulated market) and there's plenty of profit in it. The government sometimes intervenes in these markets to improve reliability (yeah, right!) or keep prices down (particularly for the most vulnerable). Also, farm subsidies make it profitable to grow food in the local country rather than importing it. There is no real financial benefit to that (if there was, the free market would do it anyway), but it does improve the country's position in non-financial terms (you don't want to be too dependant on other countries for your food or they end up with too much power over you). There are also environmental benefits. In short, the free market is very good at maximising profit. That often correlates with the needs of a society, so capitalism works pretty well, but there are needs which don't correlate with profit and that's where governments come into their own. --Tango (talk) 18:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep, those latter things that you mention are the public goods and externalities. The free market will always produce any good up to the point where marginal private benefit equals marginal private cost (this is an extension of the normal marginal benefit = marginal cost criterion for calculating economic optimality.) The value externality is the difference between the private cost and the social cost or the private benefit and the social benefit. It's external to markets. Governments intervene in various ways to try ensure that the 'decision maker bears the external cost'. It can do this by publicly provisioning the good (making the quantity decision through permits or licenses etc.), publicly producing the good itself, or introducing a market-related incentive: a tax or subsidy. So, in the case of health care or welfare the government need not necessarily provide or provision the good, as long as it, in some way, intervenes in the market to ensure the production decision is as close to that which the MPB = MPC criterion would suggest. For example: two identical societies could achieve the same total amount of healthcare or welfare payments/services (welfare is just 'social insurance' and very much could be provided by the private sector) by 1) publicly provisioning and producing the good or 2) subsidizing the industry that provides the good an amount exactly equal to the externality. Usually, the deciding factor between these two interventions are 'transaction costs'. Are the costs of monitoring and enforcing the latter system greater than the productivity gain? What about the cost of incorrectly calculating the true value of the externality? It's for these cost-related reasons that many developed countries choose the former rather than the latter.NByz (talk) 20:22, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh and the way you describe water, you're describing what an economist would call 'demand price inelasticity'. It refers to the rate at which quantity changes with a change in price (because it's a necessity in this case). See elasticity for whole bunch of them. There may be an argument that intervening in a more demand price inelastic market might be easier or more effective because you can estimate quantity demanded more easily. I haven't encountered that argument in my economic studies though. I know that demand price inelastic goods tend to be taxed more frequently, because they don't tend to exhibit the effects of the Laffer Curve (a measure by which the rate of a tax increase actually decreases the tax base by discouraging the activity) Some examples of these are the "Sin Taxes" on cigarettes and liquor that most western countries use often.NByz (talk) 20:30, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

On a related topic, I understand that Britain's health system is very much more efficient than that in the US. I cannot remember the exact amount but its something like multiple times. Since health care is free to everyone (pedants may point out that there are sometimes charges of a few pounds, mostly in England only), that is a big contribution to welfare, and peace of mind too. 78.151.147.26 (talk) 14:05, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure "efficiency" is really the right word, since one of the major factors is that doctors earn less there. I suppose, from a management point of view, high salaries are "inefficient", but it's not like the money is just wasted. StuRat (talk) 14:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll agree with that. Although there are public good aspects to having a generally healthy population, public provision encourages people to hide their true preferences. Where a person seeking a costly service will only consume that service if their personal benefit exceeds their personal cost, in a free system, this criterion doesn't apply quite so strongly. Just like in the welfare system mentioned above, when the service is provided for free, the people in the most need won't consume the service first. This is inefficient. Speaking from the Canadian point of view, I know our free health care system produces long lines and surgery wait lists. Usually people consider public provision and production of a good or service that fills a basic need as an example of more 'equity' or 'equality' rather than more 'efficiency'. A well-managed society ought to consider both of those things.NByz (talk) 18:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It's possible that when doctors get a lot of money, some of it's wasted from the viewpoint of benefit to the patient -- e.g., when doctors with financial interests in labs and radiology clinics refer patients there, ordering more tests than are ordered for similar patients when there isn't the same incentive to do so. The U.S. health care system resembles the Holy Roman Empire (providing little in the way of health, care, or system) while delivering results like an infant mortality rate worse than Slovenia's or Cuba's. OF course, if you need high-quality cosmetic surgery or laser vision correction, we've got you covered. And no commies, either. --- OtherDave (talk) 23:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It's worth remembeing that while public health care systems may produce long waiting lists, the alternative that is common in the US is short waiting lists for those who can afford it, no waiting list for those who can't. While equity and equality are generally considered the most important aspects for public provision, greater efficiency is often also considered a factor in many areas (health care and beyond). Of course free market supporters will dispute that public provision is often more efficient in a variety of areas but that doesn't change the fact it's a common claim or belief. Nil Einne (talk) 14:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The efficiency argument I was trying to make is around the idea that a free system encourages people to both 1) hide their true preferences (or willingness to pay) and 2) over-consume the service (by 'over-consume' I mean, consume such that marginal social cost is greater than marginal social benefit). Naturally the private cost will always be near zero in a free system.NByz (talk) 21:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

李印泉 (Li Yinquan)

李印泉. Li Yinquan. Does anyone know who this individual is, and is there a source for that than can be cited in a term paper? (It's just a passing reference to him because he's in a piece of art that is discussed in the term paper). I've managed to figure out that he is an art collector, a contemporary of Xu Beihong, and that's about it. Any help? Thanks!

Duomillia (talk) 17:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

November 22

Federal political parties in India

Besides Indian National Congress and Bharatiya Janata Party, is there any other political parties that are federal and they participate in the provincial elections like the two parties above? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.118.74 (talk) 00:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

See List of political parties in India. In this list, you will find parties under the heading "National Parties". These parties include Congress and the BJP. However, not just those two, but all of the national parties also participate in elections at the state level. (India has states and territories rather than provinces.) Marco polo (talk) 03:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

'Federal' isn't really a term used in Indian party politics. The Election Commission of India has three classes of recognition, 'National Parties', 'State Parties' and 'Unrecognised Registered Parties'. These recognitions mainly deal with the reservations of election symbols to be used in national and state-level elections. However, there is no limitation as to which elections that a party can contest. Do also note that there are many parties which never register themselves, but contest elections as independents or on the election symbols of other parties. Many of the state parties and unrecognised parties have nationwide party organisations and contest elections throughout India, and in total there would be 100s of political parties with some level of nationwide coverage. --Soman (talk) 17:59, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Seats in South Asian Parliaments

I know there are 300 seats in Bangladeshi federal parliament but I need to know what are the ridings and what about the Pakistani federal parliament? How many seats and the ridings? what about Indian federal parliament? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.118.74 (talk) 00:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like you are from Canada. Ridings are called constituencies in South Asia and most other places. Wikipedia has this list for Bangladesh, but it is out of date. The current list of constituencies is published here, but it is in Bengali. As for the Parliament of Pakistan, or Majlis-e-Shoora, you might want to look at our article for general information. Our article on the Senate of Pakistan states that the Senate does not have constituencies as such but are with a few exceptions elected by the provincial assemblies. The National Assembly of Pakistan consists of members elected from 272 constituencies, plus 60 women and 10 members of religious minorities elected proportionally. This page lists the constituencies. The Parliament of India has a similar structure to that of Pakistan, with an upper house, the Rajya Sabha, elected by state legislatures and a lower house, the Lok Sabha, made up of members representing these constituencies. Marco polo (talk) 03:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

And what about Sri Lanka? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.118.74 (talk) 00:42, 22 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.54.228 (talk)

Seeking reference materials on Ilse (F.) (Davidsohn) (Intrator) Stanley

I'm working up an article on this person, but am having trouble finding information about her on the Internet. Have searched: Google, Wikipedia, Ancestry.com, Google Scholar. To unscramble the title of my request: she was born Ilse (F.??) Davidsohn, married Intrator and was known as Ilse Intrator, later married Stanley and was known as Ilse Stanley. The middle initial "F." appears occasionally but I can't document it or when it entered the picture, or what it stands for (there is a hand-written note on the passenger record of the ship that brought her to the U.S. but I can't read it for sure). Thumbnail sketch of why I'm interested: she was a German Jewish woman who, with the collusion of a handful of people ranging from Nazi members of the Gestapo to Jewish civilians, secured the release of 412 Jewish prisonsers from concentration camps between 1936 and 1938. During that time she also helped countless others leave the country while it was still possible for Jews to do so legally. This story was sketched publicly in 1955 on Ralph Edwards's TV program, This Is Your Life, and told in vivid detail in her autobiographical book, The Unforgotten, published in 1957. Can anyone help? — Martha (talk) 02:05, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The internet is a big and wonderful place, but not everything is always here. May I suggest trying to work through a nearby university library, or perhaps asking for help through a geneological society? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

this Worldcat ID lookup finds that the name has no lccn, but it does have several "personal ids" assigned by different libraries. There appear to be only two or perhaps three different books on her. Click on the links to find the libraries. -Arch dude (talk) 14:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Books on Guarany/Guarani language?

I'd like to research it for a school paper, but have been having a hard time to find original work in public libraries or even at Amazon.com and such. I'm fascinated by the fact that the language is still spoken but most of Paraguay's population, and would like to address that. I can read English, Spanish and Portuguese, so any suggestions on those three languages will be very helpful. Thanks a lot! 71.139.189.123 (talk) 09:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I didn’t go looking specifically for books on the language, but for articles that might either have the information you seek in them, or have references to books. Using “Guarani” alone as a search term, Google had over 9 million hits; with “Guarani language” the count dropped to 1 million 7. Here are a few entries:

Omniglot: Writing Systems and languages of the world: [24];

Languages of the world: [25];

Language links (has links to a Spanish site and links to a Guarani-related language mailing list): [26];

And a linguistics paper on the subject: [27].

Oh yes, and then there is the Wikipedia article Guarani which has links to external sites that look promising at the end of the article, as well as the one entitled Gramática do Kamaiurá, Língua Tupi-Guarani do Alto Xingu.

You might also find some help and/or information at the Guarani Language edition of Wikipedia [28]. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I spent a summer in Paraguay, as it happens. In Asuncion, you're not going to hear much Guarani, but outside of it it's probably dominant (well, the mix is dominant, but it's pretty unintelligible to a Spanish speaker). And there are some people who don't speak much spanish at all. This is a decent dictionary; also, conjugation is fairly simple, just add a (I), re (you), o (him/her), ña (we, including the person you're talking to), ro (excluding the person), and pe (them) to the beginning of the verb, and then tense just comes from the suffix. Also, the word "jaguar" comes from Guarani. BTW, if you're wondering, the main reason Guarani still exists to such an extent is the Jesuit missions. The movie "The Mission" is about that, as it happens - not a bad movie, but it has a particularly good score... zafiroblue05 | Talk 02:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Benefits of a bachelor degree for police officers?

Does anyone know the benefits a 4yr degree will provide for police officers? Not just as far as admittance, but for pay, ranking, and other important desires.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cagefite007 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

In what country? I believe the UK has a fast track system for graduate police officers - ie. you get promoted at a significantly faster rate. Your terminology and the fact that you didn't specify a country suggests you are talking about the US, which I know nothing about. Somebody here might, though. --Tango (talk) 13:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

This is more of an opinion than fact, but in any society where education is heavily subsidized, education becomes more of vetting tool than a prerequisite. Why hire a police officer without a bachelor's degree when you can hire one with one? Also, it does become useful to have a degree later in your career. Most forces require you to spend several years on "patrol" doing the grunt work of the police department. When you choose to specialize afterwards, having a 4-year degree is useful. Becoming a detective, working in financial crimes, organizational management, crime statistics, IT etc. etc. Police departments have all of the needs that any large organization might have.NByz (talk) 17:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

My wife is in Law Enforcement, so I have a bit more of a perspective on this than the average person. Its a misconception that there is a monolithic job called "police officer" where everyone does the same thing, wears the same spiffy uniforms, etc. etc. Law enforcement is a broad field with MANY different unique and non-interchangable jobs, each of which has different requirements and qualifications. The so called "Patrol officer" that you think of when you think "cop" actually represents a very small percentage of sworn law enforcement. Besides the "beat cop" or "patrol officer" there are detectives, IT professionals, forensic scientists, traffic control officers, highway patrol, etc. etc. My wife works in the crime lab, as a forensic chemist, but even there are probably a dozen or so specialities that require very specialized degrees and training. Drug chemists, trace evidence analysts, latent evidence analysist, DNA and blood analyst, firearms, computer crimes, document analyst, etc. etc. My suggestion is that you consider which part of law enforcement interests you, and then consider which field fits your interests. Contact a local law enforcement agency, and ask lots of questions about what you need to do to get that field. Also, even if you are just a "beat cop", having advanced training can lead to faster promotions. Most departments require supervisors to undergo extensive management training for example; I know my wife's boss had to essentially get his MBA before he got promoted to his supervisor positon; so if you are interested in getting into management positions in the department (lieutenants and captains and stuff like that), having that sort of training can't hurt. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:49, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Language spoken in heaven

Hello I am trying to locate a reference for an article on Church music. It is something like "I do not know what language is spoken in heaven, but I think it would be very similar to music". Google is no help. Grateful for any suggestions. The Land Surveyor (talk) 12:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

This sounds very similar to the basic premise behind the unfinished Who rock opera named Lifehouse (much of which would be released, sans plot, as the album Who's Next.) The concept is boiled down very well in the song "Pure and Easy", which was part of the "Lifehouse" cycle, but was later released on Odds & Sods. Lifehouse never got out off the ground, largely because the premise (Nirvana/Heaven is a single musical note; and people who tune their minds to that note achieve perfect bliss) was so weird and wacky that it didn't translate well to a real, plot-driven play. I would highly recommend hitting I-tunes or Rhapsody or whatever music service you like and downloading the song "Pure and Easy" by the Who. Its not one of their best known songs, but I have always liked it, and it pretty much deals with exactly what you are asking about. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Google Books pretty quickly finds "The angels are so enamoured of the language that is spoken in heaven, that they will not distort their lips with the hissing and unmusical dialects of men, whether there be any who understand it or not" -- Ralph Waldo Emerson, Essay on Intellect. Some other authors seem to think that the language in Heaven is either a) Hebrew; b) Arabic; c) the unified language that was spoken by all humans before the Tower of Babel was built. 67.122.210.149 (talk) 20:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Cymraeg yw iaith y nefoedd. AndyJones (talk) 20:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

According to InterTran, Andy's comment translates as: "Welsh is language the heavens." Even though the multiple Ys give it away, I always have to check. ៛ Bielle (talk) 03:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Or, with a bit more syntax than InterTran can wield, 'Welsh is the language of the heavens', or more naturally 'of heaven'. --ColinFine (talk) 13:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I think every language is spoken in Heaven -- except German. Sorry Germans, but it has to stay heaven for everyone else too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.99.209 (talk) 12:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I've heard that Hitler went to Heaven, and I'd guess he spoke German there. Later, he was asked to reincarnate, to come back to Earth and fix up all our problems. He was reluctant ("been there, done that" etc), but he finally agreed, saying "Oh, alright then. But this time, no more Mr Nice Guy". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Mozart said of French "German is heavenly by comparison". Xn4 (talk) 01:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

design

the role of thinking in design —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.204.224.41 (talk) 12:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

What kind of a question is that? Is this one of those impossibly vague essay questions teachers like to set when they can't be bothered to think of a real question? If so, we won't do your homework for you. --Tango (talk) 13:40, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The role of questioning in answer Dmcq (talk) 19:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Asking age/sex/race questions of an applicant

In a country such as the U.S. where it is illegal to discriminate based on age/sex/race/religion, is it legal for a company to ask the age, sex or race of an applicant, or ask the applicant's religion in an interview?

Thanks, Sam 146.115.120.108 (talk) 17:33, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

In the UK, it's common to ask those kind of questions on the application form for a job. The answers are kept from the people making the decisions and are only used to gather statistics in order to monitor their recruitment methods (and there's always an "Decline to answer" option which I always take - statistics don't prevent discrimination, not discriminating does). --Tango (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

In the U.S., many organizations are required to prove that they DON'T descriminate on the basis of (whatever) and in order to do that are required to collect data on their hiring practices (for example, you would need to know how many black applicants applied for a job, and then how many black employees you have, etc. etc.) Companies need to comply with the regulations of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which requires the collection of that data. You, as an applicant, are never required to answer that question, and the company cannot compel you, nor can they deny hiring you if you politely decline to answer it.(Politeness is the key. If you act indignant and raise a giant stink, well, they probably won't hire you because you were rude, and not because of whether or not you filled out the "race" box on the application.) So the key to the OP's question is that it IS illegal to descriminate in that way, however the data needs to be collected so the company can PROVE that it isn't descriminating... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's hope they don't DIScriminate either. Malcolm XIV (talk) 18:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

That's politicians for you. Who's to say there isn't some reason why black (say) applicants are better/worse at the job that white (say) applicants? Just because you have the same proportions of employees as in the general population (or those applying, if you prefer) doesn't mean there isn't discrimination, and vice versa. (I'll stop ranting now!) --Tango (talk) 18:39, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Back in the affirmative action days, discrimination was forced by having quotas for race/gender positions - not applicants, but positions. When I was hiring 5 computer programmers for a company, I was told that I had to hire two women and one black person. In all applicants, there were only two women (judging by their names). So, both were hired even though they knew nothing about programming. I had no black applicants. So, I told my waiter at the Huddle House to apply so I could hire him and get the quota out of the way so I could hire two programmers to do the work of 5 positions. I wonder why that company failed? -- kainaw™ 18:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

In Ontario (Canada), it is illegal to ask certain questions. Certainly no reference to them would appear in a job advertisement, and no HR professional would ever ask any of them. From [29] comes the following:

There are some questions that are illegal for employers to ask. In general, the employer cannot ask about your race, place of origin, ethnic origin, religion, sexual orientation, age, marital and family status, disability or financial situation. There are, however, certain situations when such questions are considered valid. According to the Ontario Human Rights Code, some of these questions are valid if

the nature of employment involves "serving the interests of persons identified by their race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, creed, sex, age, marital status or handicap", or

the primary duty of employment is "attending to the medical or personal needs of the person", or

if a candidate is "the spouse, child or parent of the employer or an employee". ៛ Bielle (talk) 18:58, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if it would be legal for them to ask, many companies have a strict policy of not doing so. If you ask a old/female/black/Jewish applicant their age/sex/race/religion and they don't get the job, they may sue you because they think that age/sex/race/religion discrimination was involved. (Why did you ask if it wasn't relevant?) Even if the hiring decision was completely impartial, the company will still need to waste time and money proving it in court. If you never ask about age/sex/race/religion, it's a lot simpler to show the judge that discrimination wasn't a factor. (As an aside, in the US a lot of the employment laws are handled at the State level. Even if Federal law doesn't prohibit asking, a state law may do so.) -- 128.104.112.72 (talk) 19:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, there were a couple US states that had propositions on their ballots during the recent election that asked if voters were in favor of ending the equal opportunity measures in their states. I can't find a link right now though since it's no longer news... Dismas|^(talk) 19:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

(Totally OR) ... Having applied for a number of jobs over the past few years in the U.S., my experience has been this: Companies ask you to fill in a job application with your name, address, etc., detailing your experience and qualifications for the job itself. You are also asked to fill in a separate optional form that does not have any personal identifying information on it, asking about ethnicity, etc., which is used by the company to meet its legal requirments. — Michael J 18:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

presidential gifts

On a recent episode of the Colbert report, Colbert suggested that he would try to bribe President-Elect Obama to come on the show by offering him an issue of spiderman with Stephen Colbert on the cover, signed by both the cover artist and colbert himself (apparently Obama is an avid spider-man collector). A one of a kind comic signed by its artist AND a character seems priceless. Were Obama to come on the show, would he even be permitted to accept such a gift? --Shaggorama (talk) 19:58, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure about the transition period, but when he becomes president, all gifts above a certain fairly low monetary value become property of the U.S. government... AnonMoos (talk) 20:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that AnonMoos? I'd be interested to read up on that...192.136.22.4 (talk) 02:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

A certain competing encyclopedia owned by the Antichrist states "The Constitution also disallows presidents and other federal officials from receiving any title of nobility, gift, payment, or official position from a king, prince, or foreign state. All gifts to a president from foreign governments belong to the people of the United States rather than the president." For gifts from Americans, this says that "The president and vice-president are required to report gifts from US citizens that cost more than $US285" and "The majority of gifts are not accepted for their personal use, but rather on behalf of the United States and sent to the National Archives." Clarityfiend (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

in fact, presidents accept some, though not most gifts. since colbert isn't a government (yet), Obama could choose the comic as one of the few things he accepts as a gift during his presidency... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.99.209 (talk) 12:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Proof of religion

Would it be theoretically (even if not practically) possible to scientifically prove the existence of God(s) or an afterlife? (I am not counting psychic powers because those have been tested and have not come out well.)

I was thinking that if an extraterrestrial civilization with a very similar mythology/religion to one of our own were discovered, that would be too unlikely of a coincidence to really be a coincidence. However, that is unlikely to happen in my lifetime (or this one of my lifetimes, if you prefer). Thoughts? 69.177.191.60 (talk) 21:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course. If gods existed, then they could easily prove themselves to exist by manifesting themselves and doing godly stuff. Algebraist 21:45, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

You may have difficulties with defining "god" and thus "godly stuff". How do you distinguish between a powerful alien with some kind of matter converter than can turn water into wine and an actual god? --Tango (talk) 21:57, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

That's actually a rather interesting question, and one I've been thinking about recently. Suffice it to say here that I think the English word 'god' is sufficiently vague, and applies to such a diverse range of entities already, that I don't see anything wrong with declaring a super-powerful alien to be a god. Algebraist 22:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a very interesting question and one that I've thought about a lot after watching Stargate (particularly the Ori arc - the heros keep saying the Ori aren't gods, but they've ascended to a higher plane of existence and have all kinds of powers over nature and the universe in general - sounds pretty god-like to me!). Your definition would allow humans to become gods simply through technological advancement (at least, if my example of being able to turn water into wine counts as sufficiently powerful - if the power level requires something beyond what our science says is possible, then things get a little more interesting). That doesn't necessarily invalidate the definition, but it does lead to interesting questions about where to draw the line - what we can do now (aeroplanes [a winged chariot, anyone?], atomic bombs [makes a bolt of lightning seem like child's play], computers that can perform calculations at incomprehensible speeds [would look like you're super intelligent to someone not in on the trick], space rockets [travelling to heaven, perhaps?]) would seem pretty super-powerful to humans 2000 years ago, so are we gods? --Tango (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the entire purpose of Transhumanism is to turn us into gods—and, I must say, we've come a far ways to that end. By Medieval standards, any modern Joe today could have god-like powers. The Jade Knight (talk) 04:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Coincidences should be expected. Lack of coincidence points to something odd. -- kainaw™ 21:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course, the lack of coincidence may in fact be a coincidence in itself. SDY (talk) 21:53, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Descartes famously "proved" the existence of God in his work "Meditations." GreatManTheory (talk) 21:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, there have been many proofs. Unfortunately, they're all terrible. Algebraist 21:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

This is where the meaning of the words "prove" and "proof" come into their own. "To prove" does not, as is commonly mis-assumed, mean "to demonstrate incontrovertibly that the thing you're considering is true (or not)". It means "to test whether the thing you're considering is true (or not)". It's the process of testing that's the proof; it's not the outcome. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Please don't describe a perfectly good usage as a mis-assumption. 'to prove' can mean either 'To establish as true; to make certain; to demonstrate the truth of by evidence or argument.' or 'To make trial of; to try, test.' This has been the case since at least the 13th century. Source: OED. Algebraist 22:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Harumph! The OED - what would they know about English! (storms off).  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 00:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Another civilization (extraterrestrial or not) with similar beliefs is not at all any proof of anything other than the commonplace of beliefs. Whether said beliefs are true is entirely a different question. As for whether the coincidence of two civilizations with similar beliefs is noteworthy, it depends on a null sample which we simply do not have. (That is, it can't really be said whether it is probable or improbable. The sample size is too small and in any case there's no reason to suspect different beliefs is a more or less probable situation.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:27, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Does one need any more proof of God than the fact that the Universe works at all? That the laws of physics set in motion by Him can produce the beautiful and the sublime that is Creation? That the Big Bang could ultimately create all of everything we see? That evolution could produce a creature capable of feeling His presence and of having a relationship with Him? It is a common misconception that the religious are expecting to see God's miraculous work as existing solely as inexplicable miracles and illogical events. God's work is everywhere, and he is manifest in the world. Being religious doesn't mean looking for the miracles that are coming; it means seeing the miracles that are all around us. It doesn't mean rejecting science for superstition, it means understanding that science has provided us with a finer and more complete understanding of His creation, and as such there is no holier work than science. This is just the rantings of one Christian; but please don't imply that being religious means the same thing as being superstitious, or that God's manifestation should exist solely in the unexplainable... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

But the inexplicable is the only refuge religion has. If something can be explained without requiring a deity then Occam's razor tells us we should assume that explanation is the correct one (there are probably some unimportant caveats to that, so if the pedants that like to point such things out whenever someone mentions Occam's razor could just assume I've already dealt with them, I would appreciate it - thanks!). --Tango (talk) 01:51, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, it depends. Do you mean "inexplicable" to mean "the stuff that science has not explained yet" or do you mean "the stuff that science cannot explain". The former used to include such basic concepts as "why does it rain" and "why does the sun come up every day" and "where did all these animals and plants and people come from". Science pretty much nailed all those down. The latter category includes questions like "For what purpose does the Universe have" and "What caused the Universe to come into existance" (this is a DIFFERENT question than "by what process did it come into existance") and "Why would intelligent life evolve at all" and questions like that. Science will always lack the means to answer these questions; the answers to them MUST be taken on faith. Even the default answers, which is "we have no purpose" and "it happened because of dumb luck" are untestable and so beyond the scope of science; even if you come to those conclusions, you arrive at them via faith. I have arrived at answers to those questions, and they do not conflict with my understanding of the processes by which the universe operates. The human experience involves more than merely a collection of concrete observations about the world. The human experience involves art, and beauty, and faith, and lots of other experiences that are not part of the scientific discipline. "Why is a painting beautiful?" is as much outside the scope of science as is "Why am I here?", I would posit experiencing beauty and faith are as equal in importance to the human experience as is experiencing the truth of science. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Faith is a real thing. Everyone uses it every day. People post questions on this page with faith that they will be answered. If they didn't have faith that an answer would come, they wouldn't come here. You don't pursue someone romantically unless you have faith something will come of it. Wrad (talk) 03:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Both meanings work - things which science can never explain will always be within the realm of religion. Things that science can't explain now but might in the future and currently in the realms of religion. One of the problems with religion is that it doesn't accept corrections when it is shown to be wrong. When the religions were first established they didn't really contradict anything because there was no better explanation, but as science has developed more and more things religion tries to explain have been explained more reliably by science but religions continues to insist on their original explanations (there is some variation in this, of course - some people are very fundamentalist about it, such as Young Earth Creationists, others accept science while still believing the religion which usually ends up with them believing contradictory things). --Tango (talk) 13:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that's quite wrong too. Religions do change and evolve over time; and followers of that faith themselves change and evolve over time. Practitioners of any one religion are also highly diverse in their relationship with their religion. And never confuse the stubborness of individual people who refuse to accept science and claim (falsely) that their religion won't let them accept this; and the religious belief systems themselves, which may or may not take a "stance" on scientific issues... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you now saying that religion will change if science answers the question "What caused the universe to come into existence?"? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:43, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

No, because then we would merely redifine the universe to be larger than currently envisaged. If you take the universe to mean "all of creation", and you take our universe to have been caused by some event in a larger, "multiverse", well, creation contains that multiverse as well. It goes back to Aristole's concept of "the prime mover". All creation must have a first cause, and that first cause must be God... If we come up with some process that caused the Big Bang before the Big Bang happened, then something must have caused THAT process to occur. And so on and so on. We can redefine "Creation" as science gains a greater understanding of it, but to get back to the First Cause will always be out of the reach of science... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. If you can provide a precise and testable ("falsifiable") definition for something, then science can in theory prove its existance. if it exists. (To prove non-existance, science needs a bit more than that.) So, you question is not specific enough. Please provide a precise definition of "god" for question 1, and of "afterlife" for question 2. -Arch dude (talk) 23:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The OP asked "Would it be theoretically (even if not practically) possible to scientifically prove the existence of God(s) or an afterlife?" The second part of the question ("or an afterlife") is clearly quite different from the first. Indeed, parapsychologists have put huge efforts into examining the evidence for reincarnation, communication with the dead, near death experiences, and so on. Although I believe there's no consensus on how successful all their efforts have been, the answer in principle must be Yes, or many intelligent people would know they were labouring in vain... which perhaps they are, of course, but that's another matter. (If this sounds subjective, look for a moment at the difference in our perceptions of parapsychology and astrology. Clearly, there is a consensus that parapsychology is a respectable discipline.) Xn4 (talk) 01:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Islam: group conversation customs?

I just visited my Muslim (originally Moroccan) neighbor on a festive occasion; there were a lot of men present (the women were the ones actually having the festive occasion, elsewhere). Aside from knowing how to say salaam aleikum and that you should eat with your right hand, I'm not well versed in Islamic customs (or Moroccan ones, if that makes a difference). After dinner, the guests started conversing among themselves. I didn't understand a word of what was spoken, as it was all Arabic, but two things stood out.

First, when the conversation started, the local geezer started flapping his gums for the good part of an hour (or so it felt, at least) while the rest was silent and listened, with only an occasional interjection. I assume this is a cultural "respect for the elders" kind of thing? Is the oldest member of the group actually expected to lead the conversation this way, or is it just a courtesy extended to them when they do start talking? Would he be expected to say something special or was he just saying "So I says to Mabel, I says..." in Arabic?

Second, at two seemingly random moments, one guy would start chanting and the others would join in (some with more dedication than others...) From what I could make out ("alhamdulillah") they were religious in nature. What's the deal behind this? Can anyone just start chanting, or is it supposed to happen at specific moments? What's the rationale behind it?

My neighbor's a nice guy who would have probably answered my questions, but I always feel a little embarrassed about such things, so I'm asking you instead. :-) 82.95.254.249 (talk) 23:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I have lived for long periods in Morocco, so the following is based on personal experience. The old person mumbling and briefly interrupted was likely reciting a prayer. The occasional interjections are the Arab equivalent of Amen. The chanting were likely verses from the Coran; they are often recited in a sing-song style, as this is how they are usually memorized. This type of religious content is typical for a festive occasion, be it one of the Muslim feasts or a wedding, engagement, etc. Often, professional reciters will be invited to provide this service (for a fee of course). The recitations would have been in Arabic, but the rest of the conversation in Moroccan dialect, which is a quite different language. --Xuxl (talk) 16:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

November 23

Instinct

This might be more of a science question....but i'll proceed.

I have a new kitten who was never raised by her feline parents. Watching her behavior, I assume that it's all instinctual--she behaves like a cat because she's hardwired that way. Since she's never met any other cats, it can't be socialization.

What facets (if any) of human behavior are "instinctual" like that? I guess I'm looking for the things which cross cultures--because obviously different cultures have vastly different taboos/expectations/customs etc. which would modify behavior.

Thanks192.136.22.4 (talk) 00:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

To be analagous to the situation of your kitten, you would have to find at least one human who has not been raised by, or in the company of, other humans. Otherwise, the question of "nature or nurture" remains. There are, however, a lot of theories and some professionals who consider the very question to misunderstand what makes us human. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:14, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

See Feral child. --Tango (talk) 01:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi--OP here, i think I understand that due to most humans having been raised by other humans, many cultural customs have imprinted over any instincts we might have. But I'm wondering if there is anything at all which most scientists would point to as a remaining instinct, which doesn't need to be taught and is innate in all people. If there is no such thing, okay, just wondering if there was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.136.22.4 (talk) 02:21, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Self-preservation, sex drive, social living? Julia Rossi (talk) 06:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Little things like smiling? Screaming? Crying? --Tango (talk) 12:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

We have quite a few instincts which are shared with other animals, like breastfeeding (shared with other mammals). What I find most interesting is instincts which aren't common to other animals. I believe the tendency of babies to make up their own languages is human instinct, while the languages we learn from our parents and others are definitely not. I would argue that if you could somehow have a group of children grow up together without any language used by their caregivers, they would create their own language and could communicate basic concepts with each other when they grew up. Twins sometimes do this even though they are exposed to adult languages, since they spend a lot of time together when they are in the same language-developing stage. StuRat (talk) 17:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

This is unscientific and OR, but there do seem to be some behavior patterns related to age and sex that are fairly cross-cultural. This suggests that they are instinctual. Young males tend to get into fights with one another in every culture I have experienced, for example. Adult men and women have different ways of interacting that also seem to be cross-cultural in my experience. Of course, the sex drive is a powerful human instinct. Marco polo (talk) 01:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The movie Caligula and historical accuracy

After umming and ahhing about whether this belonged on the Entertainment desk, I decided to ask here instead, as I know that there are many history buffs here. Just for the record, most of my knowledge of Roman history comes from movies and high-school history lessons, so go easy on me. ;)

So yeah, I just watched Caligula on DVD (they finally released the full uncut, complete-with-all-the-naughty-bits version in the UK) and I find myself curious as to just how historically accurate the events and situations depicted in this 'long misunderstood epic' actually are.

I remember reading an online review years and years ago which stated that in terms of 'sword and sandal' movies, this one is actually surprisingly (amazingly?) faithful to historical accounts of Emperor Caligula's (and his associates') life, loves and batshit insane/cruel actions (yep, I'm aware of the theory that later Roman historians may have done a complete hatchet job on the man for political reasons), as well as the decadent, opulent lifestyles of the Roman upper classes of the 'pagan' era, the general lack of respect for human life and the sexual morals (or lack of them, as some would say from a modern perspective) of the time.

As far as I can remember, the reviewer had more of a problem with the anachronistic 'human being lawnmower' scene (exactly what it sounds like - you'll know it if you've seen it) and some of the costume designs than anything else in the film and suggested that in light of what he knew of Roman history, the celluloid depictions of death, tits 'n' sodomy were probably entirely appropriate.

So, any thoughts and opinions, folks? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 01:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Kurt, glancing at the critics views in the article, it seems to get the thumbs down for lack of context or conviction as a movie (bad directing, bad porn etc), which doesn't help your question, but it's a start. They don't back up why they declare it unsatisfying... Googling finds Caligula was in the top five bad emperors along with Tiberius, Nero, Domitian, Elagabalus and Commodus. Though murder, intrigue, literal and metaphorical backstabbing went with the position, Caligula seems to have taken the idea of God more literally than most. One commentator suggests Caligula "filled his four years on the throne with a reign of terror that may have been the result of a medical condition." (See also[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula#Health). I leave it to the historians here to amplify that mysterious point. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I think that the main problem with Caligula (the movie) is in the editing. There's a decentish, boundary-pushing movie in there somewhere, trying to get out (the acting is actually *good*, IMO!) - but the much publicised 'issues' surrounding the production and the egos of the people involved basically screwed it. WRT to the bad (completely non-erotic for the most part, unless one's tastes run into the 'alternative') porn and scenes of horrific abuse and cruelty - it does kinda work to demonstrate the ugly, vicious excesses of the people involved and the (apparent) social mores of the time. It bludgeons the viewer over the head for virtually the entire 2-and-a-half hour running time, until you're feeling numb and drained from it all. I don't know if that was the original intent or not - but it is successful on the 'Man! Caligula's (and Tiberius's) Rome was hell on earth!' level.

WRT to the reasons and motives for Caligula's actions - it's left pretty open ended. Was he mad, bad, a political anarchist who wanted to destroy the upper classes for fun/sympathy for the poor - or simply a young guy who had too much, too soon and liked his sister a little too much? Or maybe just a combination of all of these? I'd be interested to hear what history has to say (history for dummies, plz guys) in comparison... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 11:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course the acting was good; the film story was written by Gore Vidal and had such acclaimed actors as John Gielgud, Helen Mirren, and Peter O'Toole. As originally shot and envisaged, it WAS quite heavy on the sex and violence, but the sex was originally "suggestive" rather than "hardcore"; producer Bob Guccioni fired the original director after principle shooting, reshot most of the sex scenes with his own "talent" (and much more, um, explicitly) and brought in his buddies to re-edit the film. The resulting final film was so far from the original vision that most of the actors, writers, and directors originally involved "disowned" it... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

It's rather hard to assess Caligula's reign, because, as usual, we have a problem with bias in the contemporary sources. --Dweller (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Would it go too far to say he was the Axl Rose of his time? In terms of craziness, I mean. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 03:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I think he'd probably have more in common with Slash. Nominally, anyway. --Dweller (talk) 10:09, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Pakistani Muslim Scholars by language

Is there any Muslim scholars in Pakistan who give lectures in their native tongue: Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Pashto, Hindko, Saraiki and Urdu(if the scholar was in Islamabad and claims as an Islamabadi)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.52.50 (talk) 02:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I bet that Maududi gave plenty of lectures in Urdu... AnonMoos (talk) 14:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Indian Languages in Tafsirul Quran

Is there any Tafsirul Quran in the following Indian languages: Bengali, Gujarati, Oriya, Marathi, Hindi, Punjabi(Gurumukhi), Assamese, Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada and Kashmiri? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.52.50 (talk) 03:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

There are a very large number of Muslims speaking the Bengali, Kashmiri, and Punjabi languages at least, so one would think that there would be... AnonMoos (talk)

The tafsir article says there are some in Bengali and Malayalam. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:47, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Rigorous Education System

Out of sheer curiosity (and a wish to verify something I been told several times by people who probably aren't "qualified" to comment on it), I would like to know whether the Czech education system is really that rigorous and whether they really have frequent tests or whatever they're called. Vltava 68 (talk contribs) 03:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

[30] I found these links helpful, but they don't directly address your question about how it compares to international standards. NByz (talk) 03:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, one was from a "blacklisted site"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by NByz (talk • contribs) 03:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

which site was that? What a bunch of fascists here. My God. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.99.209 (talk) 12:04, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The OECD tries to compare international standards in schools in its Programme for International Student Assessment. The Czech Republic has scored well in these comparative tests. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

But how about the testing in comparison to other countries, though the tests could probably also be considered quizzes, from the impression I got from the various teachers who mentioned it. Vltava 68 (talk contribs) 11:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I would guess that no-one has systematically investigated whether the testing regime is challenging compared to other countries. The Czech school system has similarities with those in many other European countries and there do seem to be procedures in place to make sure that students have to reach particular standards before proceeding to the next class. There is grade repeating, and also only a minority of students take the academic track; others move into vocational study. If there was no rigour at all then the PISA results would be surprising. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it was something about daily quizzes, or at least highly frequent ones, not exams. Vltava 68 (talk contribs) 08:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

this talk attributed to Noam Chomsky

http://cscs.umich.edu/%7Ecrshalizi/chomsky-on-postmodernism.html

I don't find this anywhere else. Did Chomsky ever own/disclaim it? 59.91.254.65 (talk) 06:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

What's the issue? I skimmed it (not carefully enough to notice whether it contained anything surprising) but it looks like something Chomsky might have written or said. It's possible that it's a transcript of a talk that he gave that someone recorded, which would explain why it doesn't show up in more usual outlets. 67.122.210.149 (talk) 10:40, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's perfectly consistent with other comments I read by Chomsky on this subject, so I don't think there is much reason to doubt the authenticity. It also sounds like him. If you really want to be sure, you could ask Chomsky, chomsky at mit.edu 194.171.56.13 (talk) 10:43, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

If it's not too much trouble, will you let us know what you learn? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.99.209 (talk) 11:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

How many US presidents are of at least partial British descent?

Obama is. Bush and Bush sr are. Clinton is. Reagan was. I would imagine it to be most or nearly all of them. Do you know the answer?-Boshinoi (talk) 15:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Since they all have European ancestors, it is extremely likely that they all have British ancestors if you go back far enough (say a thousand years). I expect they all have much more recent British ancestors, but I haven't checked. Algebraist 15:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I've seen Martin van Buren being referred to as the "first President not born of British ancestry". The article also mentions that he was "the only president not to have spoken English as a first language, having grown up speaking Dutch." His mother's name was Dutch too (van Allen), but I didn't see a complete family tree excluding any recent British ancestry. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:40, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Gary Boyd Roberts shows the first six generations of Van Buren's known ancestors, and they all seem to be New Yorkers of Dutch descent, or residents of the Netherlands. The only other presidents he's known to be related to are Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and that's through their Dutch ancestry, so I think Van Buren can be excluded from having any recent British ancestry. (Roberts, Gary Boyd (1995). Ancestors of American Presidents. Santa Clarita, California: Carl Boyer. pp. pp. 13-14. ISBN 0-936124-19-9. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)) - Nunh-huh 19:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I seem to recall a great deal of edit warfare on thie: who is "British?" By some definitions you cannot be British unless you were alive after 1707. See Terminology of the British Isles. Did George Washington have British ancestors? -Arch dude (talk) 22:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, his maternal grandfather Joseph Ball was born in England in 1649, and died in Virginia in 1711 (as, of course, a British subject), so I think even by that definition he'd qualify (like his wife who didn't die until 1721). But I don't think that definition is what's meant by "British" in the question at hand.. - Nunh-huh 23:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Washington's family home in England is at Sulgrave Manor in Northamptonshire, although it seems to have left the family in the middle of the 17th century. Previously the family came from Washington Old Hall in County Durham. They're quite proud of the connection round there and I doubt that technical definitions of Britishness matter. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Sam. I'd say "you cannot be British unless you were alive after 1707" is a bit of reductio ad absurdum. If you're defining someone's nationality, then it's half true, except that the 17th century was really more interested in whose subject you were than in what citizenship you had. Although the word Britons (for British people) is an ancient one, for a long time after 1707 people were much more likely to call themselves English, Scottish, or Welsh than British. All the same, it's hard to avoid a concept of Britishness which is older than the Act of Union. Xn4 (talk) 00:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

British is as good a term as any for people born on the island on the right side of this picture, regardless of the date of their birth.--Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Religious council declaring excrement "Holy"

Which council debated and declared excrement "Holy"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.19.189.209 (talk) 15:54, 23 November 2008 (UTC) Holy shit! I think you have a point! Steewi (talk) 00:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

(still open question) about the title of a Song I played in FMEA symphonic band

I was in the all-state band 10 years ago, and there was a march that we played. The low-brass began the song with these notes (transposed from my piano to remove the flats)...

A C B G A

The first 4 are half notes (2 beats) and the last note is a double whole note (8 beats). This line repeats 3 times in the opening, and also repeats constantly throughout the whole song over & over again. Its such a popular piece, that anyone who listens to classical music would instantly recognize it. I have tried everywhere looking for "lists of 25 most popular marches" etc... and scanning youtube, and even emailed the FMEA website but they told me to contact the company which sold the CD's but that company has only contracted with them for the last 5 years. Also , the lowest pitch note is the G, and the range is less than an octave (thus the highest note is just a half-octave approximately above the lowest note) and I'm almost positive that the song has the word "March" in the title, and I believe its just a two-word title.

Here's another song we played during that event, to help you understand the style of music that we performed... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B49N46I39Y

Plus, I wish I knew how to describe the march. It was definitely not a marching band song! That's what most of my search querys returned. It was a very "musical" song, exactly in the same perceived category as Gustav Holst's Jupiter. Just something that sounded nice and talented 8th graders could play it.

Thanks a million to those of you out there who know it off the top of your head! I dont listen to classical music but have listened to dozens of songs trying to find this one. 65.41.148.101 (talk) 20:55, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't watch the youtube on this computer but those notes at the beginning sound like a setting of De profundis that is pretty well known (maybe by Felix Mendelssohn). Anyway I'm pretty sure it's something I've heard.67.122.210.149 (talk) 21:35, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid that's not it. 65.41.148.101 (talk) 00:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Was it either the Florentine March (ignore the introductory fanfares) or the Entry of the Gladiators, both by Julius Fučík? (and no, that’s not a typo) -- JackofOz (talk) 00:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

No still not it. If you heard "in the hall of the mountain king" just one time, you would instantly remember the recurring sequence of pitches. That's how strong the 5 note sequence is: it is the song! Even the melody plays lots of variations of it (such as splitting the G into 3 equal G notes of 2/3 beat each, thus still filling the 2 beat gap left by the vestigial half-note). Do any of you know people that love classical music as much as I love physics? Its such an unmistakeable melodic sequence, that it's extremeley recognizable. I tried to find this song a year ago also. If you play the sequence, you'll see that its a very powerful piece for the low-brass. Its very climactic and played soft in the intro, loud during the middle/endphase. I have read probably 500 querys returning with "March of..." which I thought was the title. It could also be "return of..." but I was almost certain I knew at least a single word of the title. During the climactic parts of the piece, had lots of timpani and symbol crashes (because both were behind me). During the "climactic melody" it goes

A C B ggg A Z Y X A C B ggg A

where I don't know Z, Y, or X but that Z is higher than Y, Y is higher than X. Y and Z are definitely higher in pitch than all the other notes. X could be higher than, or the same as one of the others.

the ggg are the three described equal-duration equal pitch "triplets" which fully fill up a half-note's duration.

I think its A C B ggg A E D B A C B ggg A

If you heard the song before, you would insta-recognize this by playing the white keys of the piano. For my tuba, the key was actually Concert-Bb so everything is transposed up a step (for those affected by perfect pitch).

So hopefully even if no one can answer this for me, I'll simply take at least one person who has heard their plenty share of classical music, to say that he or she has never heard of it and its not direly familiar. 65.41.148.101 (talk) 05:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I went to Melody Hound. I typed in the notes you provided, said I was looking for a march, and it gave me Grieg's "March of the Dwarves". But I don't know why it gave me that. I would never have picked that melody from the notes I provided. However, I couldn't help noticing that it's by the same composer as "In the Hall of the Mountain King", so it just might be what you're looking for. I put in a slightly different search and it came up with Sousa's "Stars and Stripes Forever". If it's not either of these, you've really got me intrigued. I played the note sequence on my piano in various ways, but it didn't ring any bells with me at all. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for being so helpful with me. I am 100% certain on the sequence of notes and their timing. I played that song probably 50 times since our practices were 8 hours, 8 hours, 3 hours, then the concert. If I had a tuba, and a tuba-to-midi cable I could upload it exactly, but interestingly, I think we played that song too or something with the word Suwanee in the title.

Yeah, I'm hearing the piccolo part, and I definitely confirm we played Stars & Stripers forever, in the 1998 FMEA all state band thing. That and Jupiter, Orpheus overture, and like 4 more. The only one I really liked was the March. When you played the notes on the piano did you follow the durations exactly (half note 4 of them, then a double-whole note)? Now imagine its just low brass (tubas, baritones, trumbones, french horns). There are some woodwinds like 4 oboes doing their random thing, then it gets loud, then soft then loud then soft then very loud then ends. I think the reason I liked the song so much was because of where I sat. There were about 12 tuba players alone (on top of all the other low-brass), and the FMEA certainly didn't skip on our low-brass section when he allocated seats. Plus, I keep forgetting that I made my University's marching band just by telling the band leader that I got into all-state in 8th grade and I played tuba. I wasn't even that good, but everybody wants to recruit tuba players and reject drummers. Our high school band had 2 tuba players and about 30 drummers. I assure you it is as good of march as any of the others I've heard in all my searching. Its very very very climactic/intense and I hate listening to tuba, but love stuff that sounds like apocolyptica or transsiberian orchestra. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1otyfwu1o is the best example of the intensity ebbs and flows (well nothing is quite more intense, so maybe 80%). 65.41.148.101 (talk) 10:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, is what you're describing (A C B ggg A etc) the bass line, or the melody line? Or both? If you whistled the "main tune" of the piece, would it still be A C B ggg A, or something else? And it is in a minor key, right? The majority of marches are in major keys. This one sounds quite dramatic, almost sinister, sort of like Darth Vader's theme. Am I in the right ball park? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes you have the idea perfectly! It is a very dark piece! The main melody sequence is the only thing you hear in the first 20 seconds and its the low brass playing it 3 times. To me, it IS the melody. The melody instruments play it every once in a while plus some neat variations! Its a very exciting piece, to know that you are closer to understanding it, just lets me relive it more vividly. Those notes have no sharps, no flats. I transposed it up a half step. The first note is actually concert Bb. It sounds like a minor key, but i'm not certain so don't trust it either way.

I think you should call up a few classical music buffs you know and sing a few bars of that thing. I've heard it before, I just can't place it, but it's not something terribly obscure. I am sort of hearing it in my head on a pipe organ. Jehan Alain Litanies Pour l'Orgue maybe? Saint-Saens organ concerto? It also sounds sort of Russian. Wow, while checking the Alain article I just discovered the IMSLP wiki and it has a PHP forum, maybe you could ask your question there. 67.122.210.149 (talk) 12:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

TANFF

You have the wrong poverty rates in the temporary aid for need families (TANFF) page - your poverty rates are wrong. current poverty rates (as of 2007) are 12.5% - the other years are wrong as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.105.82.27 (talk) 22:44, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no single definition of poverty rates, so it's entirely possible that the figures on that page (it's Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), by the way) and your figures are both correct, just using a different definition. That page takes its poverty figures from here (one of the figures was off by 0.1%, I've corrected it), an official US government site. --Tango (talk) 23:04, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

EC:I suggest you put this on the talk page for that article, along with your proof and the correct values. If you are sure you have the correct values, you can also change the article to reflect them. However, the values which are already there may have been gathered from another source. Different sources frequently will vary a bit from each other on stats like this. StuRat (talk) 23:08, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe the OP's figures are for the proportion of people in poverty, while the article's figures are for families in poverty. Algebraist 23:10, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Typical meal for famine-type people

Strange question - does anyone know where I can find the sort of food eaten by those affected by famine, malnourished people in Africa? It's for a youth-exercise I'm running, I want to provide them with humanitarian-aid/grown-from-the-land type food and then replace it with proper stuff to show the contrast... but I can't find anywhere to tell me what sort of thing those suffering poverty eat! Thanks! ╟─TreasuryTag►contribs─╢ 12:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There are some suggestions at Famine relief#Temporary therapeutic foods. Warofdreams talk 12:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

That suggestion covers the "humanitarian-aid" bit, but the "grown-from-the-land"? People in Africa grow a wide variety of foodstuffs. It is proper food, in fact in the right quantities it is excellent food. Famines aren't caused by African farmers growing the wrong things, but by harvest failures due to trying to use marginal lands, climate change, and war. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in the event of a famine, people will generally eat anything which might fill their stomachs, even if it has little or no nutritional value. Clearly, any available livestock, grains, nuts, berries and the like will be eaten. Wildlife and roots might provide a useful meal, if not a sustainable one, but I've heard of starving people eating bark or grass just to lessen hunger pangs. Warofdreams talk 15:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I need; Free, Real Time, Level 1, Stock and Comodity Quotes, Streaming or otherwise.

I need to find the Internet Web Site that gives; Free, Real Time, Level 1, Stock and Comodity Quotes (Streaming or other wise).

While watching the Consumer News and Business Chanel, CNBC, I could not hear the on air personality state the name of the Internet Web Site that gives Free, Real Time, Level 1, Streaming, Stock and Comodity Quotes.

I repeatedly wrote to CNBC and asked them for the name of the Web Site that they spoke of in the story; they never responded.

Does anyone know the name and address to the Internet Web Site that gives, Free, Real Time, Level 1, Stock and Comodity Quotes (Streaming or otherwise)?

I thank you in advance of your considerations and reply,

Sincerely,

Ucar —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ucarlox (talk • contribs) 13:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What is it you want again? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I think it has something to do with the Internet Web Site that gives, Free, Real Time, Level 1, Stock and Comodity Quotes. Don't quote me on that, though. --Tango (talk) 14:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

This website claims to offer free real-time stock quotes. I could not find a free source for commodity (futures) quotes. It is very likely that CNBC subscribes to a paid source for such quotes. Marco polo (talk) 14:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

You cannot get free real time prices or quotes. The exchanges feel (rightfully) that it is their data, and they want to charge you for using it, since you can make money from this information if you are clever enough.--Lgriot (talk) 00:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Muslims and pork-based medicines

Some types of Heparin derive from pork.

I know that traditional orthodox Judaism permits its adherents to break the dietary laws to save their own life, but does Islam? Do the various elements that make up Islam differ on this question?

For the sake of argument, let's assume a) the drug is 100% needed to save life and b) no non-porcine equivalent exists.

Further, bonus question. The drug is (usually? always?) injected. Does this make a difference? (ie is it less of a problem than taking it orally, or is it all considered the same?) --Dweller (talk) 16:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

For one take on Islamic law, I looked this up on the Islam Today fatwa archive. There's nothing specific to this question, but this fatwa says it's sometimes ok to use prohibited intoxicants when medically necessary, citing the principle 'Necessity legalizes prohibitions'. From this, I'm sure that this strand of Islam would be happy with necessary pig-based medicine. edit: See also this, which notes that many scholars consider it compulsory to take live-saving medical treatment, even if the treatment would otherwise be forbidden. Algebraist 16:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

And it will probably depend on the person. I have known both Jews and Muslims who have had no qualms about eating pork. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I suppose the way in which you take the medicine would depend on the way the scripture forbidding pork is formulated... It's a similar question to the Jehovah's Witness/blood situation. --217.227.79.79 (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Were they intoxicated when they said "Necessity legalizes prohibitions" rather than "overrides"? Clarityfiend (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Algebraist. I'm not sure one can necessarily infer information about forbidden intoxicants (that I know some branches of Islam are less strict about anyway) onto forbidden foods... but the second answer seems fairly convincing.

Do Shiites and Sunni (or any other branch) differ on this? Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 21:00, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

which orchestra instruments play chords?

Obviously when there is a piano with the orchestra, the pianist plays chords in spades. I asked a totally novice violinist, who said that they can, but don't often, play two strings at once (it sounded like she didn't at all). I vaguely remember hearing that Paginini's famous cannon sounding violin had a flat bridge, allowing him to play across three bows at once -- which would have implied that it's uncommon to play three notes on a violin at once. My question is: which orchestra instruments are TYPICALLY called on to play a chord? Any? My understanding is that most, such as trumpets, clarinets, flutes, etc, can't play a chord no matter what. Is this correct?

Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.99.209 (talk) 17:59, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

(Assuming you know that a chord is defined as 3 or more tones at once.) One thing to consider: an individual brass or woodwind instrument won't be playing chords, but the brass or woodwind section might be playing chords. Other than guitar or piano, I can't immediately think of many orchestral instruments that could play chords.. things like xylophone I suppose. Disclaimer: I'm not very up on which instruments are considered orchestra instruments. If you understand physically how a given instrument produces a tone, you should be able to figure out whether it can play more than one at a time. Friday (talk) 18:10, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Violins (and other bowed string instruments) can give at least the illusion of a 3 or 4 note chord. Other instruments that can genuinely play chords include mallet percussion instruments, which with conventional technique play 4 notes at once (e.g. the Xylophone as Friday says, but also Glockenspiel, Vibraphone, Marimba). There's also the Harp and Celesta, and I suppose you could even count the Organ. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

How odd. I just happen to have recently written an article on Tossy Spivakovsky, who "developed a special bowing technique for the performance of the solo Bach suites. Most violinists solved the problems of playing chords by quickly arpeggiating them. Spivakovsky believed that they should be played solidly, as a keyboardist might play them, and solved the problem by developing a new approach to holding the violin and bow. His method was not widely adopted, but it was the subject of a 1949 book". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:04, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What's even odder is that I just asked a question germane to this very subject, here at the Reference Desk of all places, where you just happen to contribute. Coincidence? I think not. I think we can only conclude that you are my sock puppet, JackofOz. But why would I admit that? The plot Dickens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.99.209 (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

It would definitely depend on the definition of orchestra. As mentioned, piano can do it, in addition to celesta, harpsichord, organ and harp. It is becoming more and more common to see full chords written out in mallet percussion parts, specifically in marimba and vibraphone, and occasionally glockenspiel and xylophone. Strings such as violin, viola, etc. will VERY rarely call for it, but it is technically possible. I've also seen orchestras call for considerably less common instrumentation, sometimes including guitar. Then, each individual section can make up a chord (for example, all 4 horns each play an individual note, but together create a chord). However, wind instruments cannot play more than one pitch at once, with a very uncommon exception.98.227.97.143 (talk) 00:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's the ways you can do it (most have already been mentioned).

Strings can play chords -- three notes -- simultaneously, even without arpeggiating, even with a modern bridge, with sufficient pressure and far enough away from the bridge that the pressure on the outer of the three strings pushes them down sufficiently to sound the middle string. Usually it is not done in orchestral writing for obvious reasons -- you can get a cleaner sound with divisi.

Woodwinds can play chords using multiphonics, a technique encountered in some modern scores, as 98. notes.

Brass (and woodwinds) can play chords, in a limited (and marginally effective way) by playing a note simultaneously with humming a lower pitch, producing a difference tone. It's not worth the trouble, but technically possible.

The harp plays chords wonderfully: and keyboard instruments such as the piano, celesta, harmonium (Webern uses it), organ, are usually available.

In the percussion section, the mallet instruments (xylophone, marimba, vibraphone, glockenspiel) obviously can play chords; and so can timpani, and any other tuned drums. Berlioz famously used timpani to play chords in the Symphonie Fantastique as well as his Requiem. Antandrus (talk) 02:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Fantastic answer Antandrus! I just want to point out that string players at an advanced level (college/conservatory and beyond) do play chords all the time. Most great virtuosic violin pieces include extensive “double stops.” However in an orchestral section this is rare since it is difficult to get 12-32 violins all to play a difficult double stop precisely in tune. Instead the notes of a chord are split within a section, with a few players taking each of the notes individually. --S.dedalus (talk) 08:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Bela Bartok's string quartets are rife with triple stops. The 3rd quartet is dense with them. Not orchrestral music, but orchestral instruments at least. Pfly (talk) 09:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I have a question about a strange word

Is there any other translation for the word Galaad except that it's a mountain near river Jordan , or that is a legendary knight that was at Arthurian legends.??!!Please let me know..

p.s.I am really sorry for my English! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.52.193.87 (talk) 18:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you speak Arabic? If so, maybe ask on my talk page in Arabic. Wrad (talk) 18:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The Arthurian knight was Galahad, not Galaad. Wikiant (talk) 18:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Galaad is an alt form of the name. According to Google, Galaad is also a software suite, a Swiss prog-rocker, and the Greek for Gilead. Algebraist 18:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

جلاد in Arabic can mean "hangman" "leather merchant" or "skinner". [31] Wrad (talk) 18:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

You could try comparing Galahad and Gilead? Seems to fit your definition, just about. In Hebrew, it's pronounced "Gil'ad". It's possible that its Arabic name approximates to Gal'ad, but I'm speculating here. --Dweller (talk) 20:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm galaad that's aaall straightened out. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The Cross Section Of The Zeit-Geist

Does anyone know whjat this http://www.laclosca.cat/data/contents/zeitgeist_freehand_lg.jpg is about? Or where I can see a clearer version please? I think I've seen something like it before somewhere. Thanks. 78.146.58.39 (talk) 00:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It is, of course, a pentagram. And see also skepdic.com/pentagram.html. On that particular drawing, you may find some clues on the page it's linked from. Xn4 (talk) 01:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not a pentagram (5 pointed star) but rather a hexagram or Star of David (6 points). It's hard to see the labels on it at that resolution, but it appears to posit an axis of "eclectical world-view" midway between reason and necessity, and allude to Hegel (thesis, antithesis, synthesis). I don't think you'll be able to discern its meaning without finding an explanatory text and a depiction at a resolution that allows the accompanying words to be read. - Nunh-huh 02:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Nunh-huh, I see now that it is indeed a hexagram, but the reason I was mistaken is that it has many of the characteristics of the magical pentagram (like, for instance, Eliphas Levi's), such as the intertwining of notional bands. I suspect those resonances may be what the OP was reminded of. Xn4 (talk) 04:21, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Political Figures

Here [32], who is the man at the very top center above Trump and McCain and behind the word "capitalist", and who is the man in the very top right-hand corner? TIA, Ζρς ι'β' ^¡hábleme! 02:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The very top right-hand corner looks to be a sketch of the Unabomber if memory serves me right. 38.112.225.84 (talk) 02:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) unibomber —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.217.99.209 (talk) 02:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't that image be a mirror image. The Democrats are on the right whilst the Republicans are on the left, that doesn't seem correct. - Akamad (talk) 02:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It's one of those dopey political compasses. As usual it has been deployed to a misleading effect with the goal of making Libertarianism look like the only reasonable option, with everybody else being somewhere between Hitler and Stalin. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The guy above Trump is The Nuge! Here's the source image. Above and behind W. is Ronald Reagan, with Jerry Falwell to his left. Can anyone identify who is behind Hillary Clinton? --Sean 15:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't tell who's immediately behind her - there are two "missing" id's that there just be too little showing to make sense of. - Nunh-huh 16:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

If that's a McCain poster, it reminds us that the nutty 'socialist' tag aimed at Obama did McCain's campaign more harm than good, as it was widely recognized as untrue. Didn't it start with Joe the Plumber? Xn4 (talk) 16:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Left-Hand Path and Deism

Are any Left-Hand Path religions compatible with Deism? NeonMerlin 03:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure exactly what "Left-Hand Path" means in this context, but Deism is basically the idea that God determined the laws of the universe and set it going, but does not directly intervene in events afterwards (not in any way which violates said laws). Some forms of Gnosticism posit a semi-evil demiurge, who is quite different from the true high God, and also posit that the true high God does not really directly intervene in events at this phase of cosmic history, but in most respects Gnosticism and Deism are pretty much opposite... AnonMoos (talk) 12:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Left-Hand Path and Right-Hand Path.--droptone (talk) 12:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That link is informative about historically changing meanings and widely-varying usages and alternative definitions, but it doesn't directly help too much in answering the question that was asked... AnonMoos (talk) 12:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Double standards about marriage

Why are African-American couples who have children out of wedlock deemed a bad example, but Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are applauded for breaking tradition by doing so? Isn't this a double standard of ethnicities? Forgive me if I sound like I'm soapboxing, but I'm not. If I'm doing so unintentionally, then feel free to remove. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 04:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that has anything to do with ethnicity...they are rich and famous and it doesn't matter if they aren't married, whereas for most other people, white or black, having children out of wedlock often implies poverty and irresponsibility. I'm sure there are black unmarried famous couples, although I can't think of any (Halle Berry, kind of?). Adam Bishop (talk) 05:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The important thing is whether both parents are present, not whether they're married. If both parents are present, but unmarried, then their li'l bastards will probably turn out alright. StuRat (talk) 05:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Present and financially capable of supporting a child. The latter is more important - single parents frequently do an excellent job of bringing up children, but all too often being a single parent means having no income and having live on handouts, which is not good for the child (or the taxpayers that have to pay for those handouts). --Tango (talk) 11:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

At least in the US, where this question seems to be aimed, there is a sufficient financial safety net that children aren't going to die from starvation or exposure, if their parents seek assistance. However, an absent parent can cause the child to die. For example, the lack of a father may cause a boy to join a gang and get killed or a girl to be sexually promiscuous and get AIDS. So, the lack of emotional support is more deadly than the lack of financial support. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

In any developed country the chance of a child dying from either having a parent absent or being in poverty is very remote. I was thinking of more lower level harm - bullying, poor education (although I suspect the correlation between education and wealth is due to a common cause of the parent(s) being poorly educated rather than a direct link), being drawn into petty crime and drugs, etc. Rarely fatal, but certainly not good for the child. --Tango (talk) 15:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, I question whether the general public applauds "Brangelina" for it. The media can be biased toward celebrities because they want to be able to keep reporting on those who are rich and famous. They might not report unless there is a huge public outcry against the couple. But, people in the (admittedly more conservative) circles that I am in tend to denounce "Brangelina" as a horrible example just as well.

Now, as to why the media tends to give this bias, I think it's as I stated above. Plus, they might be in a profession that claims to be unbiased, as reporters, but that isn't always the case. If a media person believes in having children out of wedlock as a positive thing, they might go into Hollywood reporting and just ever so slightly slant the news about such celes to make them sound more positive, withut reporting on the negative aspects..Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Your question is based on your impression that EVERYONE deems one group of people a bad example and EVERYONE applauds another couple. That is not true. To get an answer to your question, you need to ask whomever it is that fits your criteria what they are basing their opinion on. It is an opinion, not a fact, so it will be difficult to provide a reference to a study or paper written about this topic. If you simply want to discuss your opinions, please use one of the millions of discussion forums on the Internet. -- kainaw™ 13:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

In the United States in particular what people care about most of the time when thinking about morality is economic productivity. Child out of wedlock? No problem if you can pay for it. It's a wonderfully American obsession—if you are economically solvent, then you must be doing something right. If not, then shame, shame on you, you horrible person. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 14:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

God and Free Will

If God (in Christianity) knows everything we have done and will do, then in reality, is our salvation really of our own free will? Or maybe this is just another argument for predestination? But surely we get a choice. --Vltava 68 (talk contribs) 08:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not entirely. Consider this hypothetical example: a person born in a remote area and lives their entire life without hearing of Christianity's message. They have free will their whole life, but are they saved? --Dweller (talk) 10:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous Christian... AnonMoos (talk) 12:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Within Christianity opinions differ on this subject. For example, Erasmus and Martin Luther had a long debate about free will and predestination (On the Bondage of the Will). Free will in theology has more points of view. 194.171.56.13 (talk) 10:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

"knows everything" == omniscience. On that and the problem of free-will, see Theodicy, and further free will theodicy. -- Fullstop (talk) 10:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

You should read The Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius, as it contains a thorough treatment of you posed question. --Shaggorama (talk) 15:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

What does this saying mean

"How thin can I spread myself before I'm no longer 'there'?" What does this mean please do answer this as soon as possible..........