Talk:Pat Tillman

San Jose native?

In its headline for covering the AP story, the San Jose Mercury News calls Tillman a "San Jose native", but doesn't cite any evidence (birthplate etc.). Anyone know? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:36, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Looks like he was born in San Jose [1] ElBenevolente 02:05, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone else find it really freakish that the article was started a week before Tilman died? Eek. Isomorphic 02:16, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I started the article last week after I saw Pat Tillman was on Requested articles. I was a bit freaked out when I saw the news this morning. -- ElBenevolente 02:46, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That is indeed freakish! ChessPlayer

Links in the Article

I delinked "killed in action" as it linked to a page which was for defining KIA as "killed in action". "KIA" wasn't used in the article, so the link was linking to a page which had no useful information. ChessPlayer 22:13, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that's true now. But in a few years time that may not necessily be so. It's quite reasonable, for example, to imagine the KIA article being updated with various militaries' rules for calling someone "KIA" as opposed to "missing presumed killed", MIA, etc., links to some future memorial wiki, or other stuff one can't imagine now. Equally (I'm stretching things for this case, but not for others) someone could go to KIA and hit "what links here" and get a list of those people so designated (yeah, it'll be very far from comprehensive, but it's a start). So, in general, I don't think that because an article is useless now (you right in saying that for the purposes of the Tillman article, the KIA one mostly is useless) doesn't mean it will always be so, and so that isn't a great criterion as to whether one should link to it. This particular case, I'll grant, is marginal. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:05, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, when the KIA article says something relevant to this article, no doubt someone will link it again :-)....but for now, it just added clutter. Linking too many words is not good style, it makes text hard to read. ChessPlayer

Article Introduction

I don't think it is right to first include Tillman's posthumous rank in the Army along with his name in the intro. In biography pages on Wikipedia, if I am not mistaken, simply the person's name is listed. See for example, George Patton, John Pershing, Ulysses S. Grant, and Erwin Rommel. None of these articles state the person's military rank, just the name, and then later give the rank. ChessPlayer 22:52, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Media coverage of his brother's eulogy and blog coverage in general

Supposedly they pulled their coverage of the funeral because of what his brother said about Pat not being religious, or the way he said it.

If someone would like to spend 20 minutes summarizing the blog coverage of all this, I think it would really add to this page.

Here's a good starting point: Google Search for pat+tillman+blog

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL

Gonzalez article hostile to Tillman

I moved the in-text link to the "External links" section. The Gonzalez article is part of the story. Reporting it and linking to it are NPOV. If we remove that link because it, standing alone, is POV, then we'd have to remove pretty much all the other links, which are laudatory. I also de-wikified Gonzalez's name; at one point there was a stub for him, but I think there was a consensus that he didn't merit his own article. JamesMLane 00:16, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ted Rall's cartoon

I changed the word "genocidal" to "misled." The cartoon makes no mention of genocide; it suggests that Tillman was foolish to belief in the "War on Terror" (which Rall openly mocks) and blames the administration for deceiving Tillman. Regardless of whether Ted Rall is right or wrong in those assertions, "genocidal" has nothing to do with the cartoon and to use that word is decidedly POV. --Feitclub 01:10, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

Um...Rall's cartoon depicts Tillman signing up to "kill Arabs". Sounds like an accusation of genocide to me. - Nunh-huh 01:22, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The point is he believes Tillman was being duped. And there's a big difference between wanting someone dead and being genocidal. --Feitclub 02:17, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

There's not a big difference between wanting someone dead because they're Arab and being genocidal....to me, anyway. your mileage may differ - Nunh-huh 03:40, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Having said that, I think your edit is appropriate. --Feitclub 02:19, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

Photo Caption Incorrect?

I'm pretty sure that this is a photo of Tillman graduating from Ranger School, not from Army Basic.

ASOC assertion of enemy forces

In the Biography section, there are the following assertions, which are unaccompanied by any corroboration.

Army Special Operations Command, however, claims an exchange with hostile forces. They are correct.

Rather than just deleting this, I offer an interval for discussion and clarification.

use this info.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL

Is it my imagination or did this happen?

Pat Tillman dies. The right wing make him into a Jesus 2.0 and the left had a "mixed" reaction to his death.

Then when we find out he:

• got killed by friendly fire,
• oposed the war in Iraq,
• was a Democrat,
• was going to vote for Kerry,
• was into Noam Chomsky.

Suddenly the left hails him as a martyr and the right either drops him faster than a burning dog turd or distances themselves from him and tries to suppress any mention of him ASAP.

stuff

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,121262,00.html http://www.tfp.org/TFPForum/Tendential_Revolution/tillmanstower.html http://www.theadventuresofchester.com/archives/2004/12/blogs_of_war_de.html

Bush will burn in hell

Following is a transcript of remarks by President Bush at the 2004 White House Correspondents Dinner.

Washington Hilton Washington, D.C. May 1, 2004

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all. Thanks for coming. Thank you for the invite. Thank you, Carl. I'm glad you got a taste of Mother. (Laughter.) I was going to start off tonight telling some self-deprecating jokes. (Laughter.) But then I couldn't think of any mistakes I had made to be self-deprecating about. (Laughter and applause.)

In my recent press conference, John Dickerson of Time Magazine -- (applause) -- asked the question about what I considered my biggest mistake. It's an excellent question that totally stumped me. (Laughter.) I guess looking at it practically, my biggest mistake was calling on John.

(Laughter and applause.) Or take that one about Cheney and me answering questions together. That was a toughie. (Laughter.) So from now on, Dick and I will be holding joint press conferences. (Laughter and applause.)

We could do it that way, or we could do it this way: You could ask the question, then I could tell Bob Woodward -- (laughter) -- and he could tell you. (Laughter.)

I thought about giving an economics speech tonight. It really gets me when the critics say I haven't done enough for the economy. I mean, look what I've done for the book publishing industry. (Laughter and applause.) You've heard some of the titles: Big Lies; The Lies of George W. Bush; The Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. (Laughter.) I'd like to tell you I've read each of these books, but that would be a lie. (Laughter and applause.)

Laura and I always look forward to this event because of the good spirit that brings us together. And I appreciate that, Carl, you reflecting that spirit tonight. This year, we are also mindful that our country is in a period of testing and sacrifice. As I speak, men and women in uniform are taking great risks, and so are many journalists who are being faithful to their own sense of duty.

When we think of the great war journalists, we often think of an earlier era -- Edward R. Murrow reporting from wartime London; Joe Rosenthal with his camera at Iwo Jima; or Ernie Pyle, sending columns home from Europe and the Pacific, and dying with the men whose stories he told.

In every field in every generation, we tend to view the best as belonging to the past. Yet, in our time, that's not right or fair.

Many of us were privileged to know Michael Kelly, and to read his clear words and to feel the moral conviction behind them. David Bloom passed through our midst with incredible energy, enthusiasm, and tenacity in getting the story. Others, like Michael Weiskopf, have shown incredible presence of mind and courage that won our admiration. (Applause.) This generation of wartime journalists has done fine work, and much more, and they will be remembered long after the first draft of history is completed.

The same is true of our military. We are nearing important days of remembrance. Soon, we will mark the 60th anniversary of D-Day, in the company of men who have lived long and can tell you the names of the boys who did not. Later this month, we will dedicate the WWII Memorial here in Washington, and look back on a generation that saved the liberty of the world. (Applause.) These events will have an added meaning because America is again asking for courage and sacrifice.

As we honor veterans who are leaving us, we also honor qualities that remain. The generation of WWII can be certain of this: When they are gone, we will still have their kind wearing the uniform of the United States of America. (Applause.)

The loss of Army Corporal Pat Tillman last week in Afghanistan brought home the sorrow that comes with every loss, and reminds us of the character of the men and women who serve on our behalf. Friends say that this young man saw the images of September the 11th, and seeing that evil, he felt called to defend America. He set aside a career in athletics and many things the world counts important: wealth and security and the acclaim of the crowds. He chose, instead, the rigors of Ranger training and the fellowship of soldiers and the hard duty in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Corporate Tillman asked for no special attention. He was modest because he knew there were many like him, making their own sacrifices. They fill the ranks of the Armed Forces. Every day, somewhere, they do brave and good things without notice. Their courage is usually seen only by their comrades, by those who long to be free, and by the enemy. They're willing to give up their lives, and when one is lost, a whole world of hopes and possibilities is lost with them.

This evening, we think of the families who grieve, and the families that wait on a loved one's safe return. We count ourselves lucky that this new generation of Americans is as brave and decent as any before it. (Applause.) And we honor with pride and wonder the men and women who carry the flag and the cause of the United States.

May God bless them, and may God continue to bless the United States of America. (Applause.)