Talk:Flunitrazepam

Reverting addition of "Josh Ladd" ...again —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.182.9 (talk) 21:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Reverting 81.205.28.135's 9 December 2004 edit:

"..., but, alcohol remains the #1 rape drug"

Be that as it may, that statistic is a non-sequitur here. It would be better suited for a "Date Rape" article.

I didn't do that edit, but I object to the revert, as it is not irrelevant to the text at all. Quite simply, the article without something to that effect becomes POV by not putting the potential abuse into perspective. An encyclopedic article should aim to be objective; as an analogy, presenting the horror of a plane crash without pointing out its unlikelyhood would be an instance of the same.

As a reference, you can source "J Analytical Toxicology; 1999 May", which states a prevalence of 0.4% flunitrazepam among rape victims who believe themselves to have been drugged. Fairly low, compared to 3% for GHB, 58% for alcohol, 6.6% for amphetamines, 2.3% for opiates, 14.3% for other benzodiazepines, 18.4% for marijuana, and 8.4% for cocaine. About one third of the cases showed more than one substance.

In short, Flunitrazepam is the least popular rape drug, and Ethanol is the most popular one. The text reverted does have a rather informal tone, but is a truth that should be included. Zuiram 15:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Roche has since added something to the pill form that makes it so the fluid turns blue when you put it in, to help prevent it in facilitation with date rape. Nathan J. Yoder 19:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Side Effects

The article lists Chemical Side Effects including: "Unwanted intercourse in the vaginal region, and all other forms of sodomization" Ummmm, i don't know much about Flunitrazepam and am no pharmacologist, but I would seriously want to see a source listing that as a side effect of the drug before putting it on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.104.97.194 (talk • contribs) 12:25, November 8, 2007

How about a section on drugs that can be used to counteract its effects and thereby avert date rape -- even if it's to say there aren't any? -- EB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.134.167.78 (talk) 00:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Legal Use

Something should be said about its legal uses.

Where is it legal, and what is the scheduling of it?

In Norway, at least, it can be legally prescribed for anything, though the doctor will risk severe consequences if problems arise after prescribing it for anything other purpose than as a hypnotic. However, the name has been changed to Flunipam, in a silly attempt to avoid people obtaining it illicitly. Roche's version contains something to add color and taste to it, which is not present in the Norwegian version. We have not experienced any significant problems with it in the date-rape context. Zuiram 15:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get the information about taste additives to the Rohypnol Film-Coated Tablets? I have a pack here (yes, those oval-shaped, green-film-coated-deeply blue cored tablets by Roche), and I can tell you, they turn buccal cavity, or a drink deep blue, but their taste isn't much distinctive or strong. They taste, well, like slight sweet tablets. When I take a Rohypnol to get sleep (which is quite seldom), I take it buccaly, sublingualy -- under the toungue and let them dissolve and resorb there. In this way, the tablets are acting faster and the bioavailability is higher than after simple oral intake with a glass of water.--84.163.84.223 00:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This article seems to focus almost entirely on its legal status in the United States.

Yes, the article should IMO be split into Flunitrazepam_abuse and Flunitrazepam, with the former containing the majority of the content in the current article, and the latter containing the rest plus the actual medical use information. Believe it or not, most of the people who get it in places where it is legal actually get it for legitimate purposes, and would probably be a lot more interested in reading about the same stuff they find in the other benzo articles than about its recreational uses (most of which are because drug users feel it is a very "good" drug, in the sense of good effect, good sleep quality, little hang-over and limited side-effects). Zuiram 14:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Be that as it may, that statistic is a non-sequitur here. It would be better suited for a "Date Rape" article. Kalmia 06:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

As long as the article emphasises the abuse of this drug, hard facts about the abuse are in no way non-sequiteurs to the content. Anything else would IMNSHOO be a violation of NPOV. The article goes on and on about date rape use, among other things, information that by your rationale should be put in a date rape article rather than this one, so I suggest we get some consistency and neutrality. Zuiram 14:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Roche has since added something to the pill form that makes it so the fluid turns blue when you put it in, to help prevent it in facilitation with date rape. Nathan J. Yoder 19:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

A dye has been added to make drinks change colour, as well as taste salty. It is difficult to impossible to use as a date-rape drug unless a)your "victim" doesn't have taste buds, and b)doesn't even glance at the drink before taking it. This makes it very hard for those of us who are being treated for genuine medical conditions with this drug - it is in the same class as Morphine in Australia, and doctors are very hesitant to prescribe it - I have confirmed with a doctor that it was only classed the same as Morphine due to its notoriety.

The reason the above is not true is because of the popularity of cola. From what I can gather the dye added is deap blue. In clubs it's very dark generally so cola looks exactly the same as cola with blue dye. The strong taste of phoric acid masks any salty taste, as will the alcoholic drink. It's a sad fact but some people will take what they cant have Blonde2max 19:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, phosphoric acid does *not* mask the salty taste. It is clear that there is something wrong with the drink. Some blue or very dark alcoholic drinks may mask it, though, so don't leave one of those alone. While some people will take what they can't have, which goes for many other things than just sex, this does not offset the fact that there are significant medical reasons for this drug to be available. The only real problem is that victims rarely contact police or hospitals quickly enough (within 72 hours) to secure evidence of a rape, which is not exclusively a problem with psychoactive compounds. Zuiram 15:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

By far the most abuse-prone galenic of flunitrazepam is the injectable solution, used in hospital settings as potent and long-acting sedative/hypnotic for prolonged sedation ("artificial coma") and even TIVA intravenous induction. In most countries, Rohypnol Injections (ampoules of 2 mg flunitrazepam to be diluted just prior injection/infusion) are however, classified as scheduled drugs, much as morphine and/or other strong opioids and the use/dispense of this particular galenic is strictly supervised not only by hospital authorities, but also national ones. The problem is, that the injection concentrate of Rohypnol 2 mg Inj. is about, or less, of 1 mL of slightly acidic and alcoholic tasting fluid, containing relatively strong dose of flunitrazepam. If someone drops a single little ampoule content in a drink, the victim would hardly notice any taste difference, yet getting fully dissolved active ingredient of 2 regular FlunitZ tablets. This works in 10 - 15 minutes, if the victim doesn't have a massive tolerance towards benzos, with almost a narcotic hypnosis and full amnesia for many hours.

Fortunately, much of the former uses of Rohypnol inj. soln. is been taken over by midazolam preparations. Yet this remains the actual peril of flunitrazepam beeing used as hideous konck-out agent, especially in eastern Europe and third world, despite the strict control of injectable Rohypnol.--84.163.84.223 00:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Usa biased

This article should be rewritten.

>It would be better suited for a "Date Rape" article.

I agree

 21 April 2006

rohypnol as sterilization drug

There have been rumours that rohypnol sterlizes the victim permanently... what is the real scene?

Pure speculation, accoarding to my doctor.

Not just speculation, but in fact BS.

The origin of the rumor is the use of the fictive drug Progesterex together with rohypnol, the stated (though illogical) goal being to avoid conception. This is, of course, just silly, as there is no such thing as progesterex, and conception only occurs if you leave DNA evidence which would be bound to be discovered with the amount of side effects such a drug would have if it weren't fictive. Zuiram 15:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

similarity to mogadon (Nitrazapam)

from what i can gather the only diffrence between the two is one flourine atom. What are the diffrencies between the two that give such a diffrent effect as a date rape drug.

I'm not sure there is such a difference, at least not in favour of preferring rohypnol for this use. For one thing, a too low dose will not induce anterograde amnesia, and a too high dose will actually act as a stimulant. (I have a source to verify this, if I can find the link, but the text is in Norwegian. In short, a Norwegian medical facility tested this based on rumors that abusers were taking it for stimulant purposes. They found that above 5mg or so, the effect paradoxically reverses.) Zuiram 15:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Chemically, flunitrazepam is 1-methylated and 5-ortho-fluorinated derivative of nitrazepam. This chemical modification increases its potency some 10-fold; it also speeds the absorption of the drug from the GIT (effective plasma levels after about 10 - 15 min post 2 mg p.o., t(max) in 45 - 60 min). So, 1 mg Rohypnol has about the hypnotic potency of 10 mg Mogadon, but it "kicks" much faster and harder, which is why it's a particulary effective knock-out agent.--84.163.109.201 (talk) 05:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Legal status

The article states that flunitrazepam was "never approved for medical use in the United States", and immediately afterwards states that it was temporarily placed in "Schedule IV" and was then moved to "Schedule III". Supposedly, it is *considered* for Schedule I classification. Please note that only substances which have no recognized medical use by the FDA are placed in Schedule I, therefore, if flunitrazepam "was never approved for medical use in the United States", it could *never* have been classified in any schedule lower than Schedule I, and it would federally be Schedule I at this time (which the article implies is not the case).

Conclusion: unless someone can cite that either:

• flunitrazepam is and has been a Schedule I drug in the US since it became a controlled substance, OR
• flunitrazepam was never classified by the FDA as a controlled substance,

I will *remove* the passage which states that flunitrazepam "...was never approved for medical use...", as this sentence renders the entire paragraph self-contradictory --(Patrick 01:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

I suggest there is a difference between "FDA approval" for a drug and "no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States" (see Controlled Substances Act#Schedule I drugs). Is the latter criteria even decided by the FDA (as you suggest)? Think for example, about drugs that have no licence for children (yet are used/prescribed for such) or drugs that are licenced elsewhere (e.g. Europe, Mexico, Canada) but not (yet) in the US. Colin°^Talk 08:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that drugs exist that are not classified by the FDA as having medical use or not (uncontrolled substances), such as ginko biloba, for example, yet have widely accepted medical use. Like I said above, if someone can cite a source that says that the drug in question was at some point uncontrolled, then the statement that it had no accepted medical use at some point is true, only until it becomes scheduled, of course. As far as I know, however, flunitrazepam has been a controlled substance since its inception due to its nature as a benzodiazepine derivative. Therefore, in order for the statement to be true, the drug must have been scheduled under Schedule I (which, as stated in the article, is not currently the case, but possibly up for debate). (Patrick 21:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

2mg tablets.

In October 2005 I was prescribed flunitrazepam, under the name Rohypnol, with the Roche logo on the blister pack. This was in Japan, and I while I assume the 2mg pills are still manufactured, I cannot find any verification of this. It is also available in Japan in 1mg tablets under the name Silece(サイレース), manufactured by Eisai Co., Ltd.

Amnesia Effects?

Can it make the user forget memory from the period immediately before the pill was taken? I ask because this is how it is used on Arrested Development.

Not as far as I know. It takes too long for the drug to enter the system for it to affect the transfer to long-term memory. The last 15 minutes before it kicks in could be sensitive to an extreme dose, which would need medical attention anyway, so isn't very relevant. It takes anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes before you start to notice the effects, but 1 hour to reach peak plasma concentration, so if the effect is strong enough to cause amnesia after 15 minutes, it will at the very least be strong enough to cause paradoxical disinhibition (aggression, etc.) at peak concentration, and quite possibly strong enough to be a serious problem. Zuiram 14:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

section neutrality disputed-Drug-facilitated sexual assault

same as this discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Date_rape_drug#weasel_words...

^^^POV warrior