Talk:Islamic view of the Trinity

Which part is POV?
Blubberbrein2 10:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It does not include the opinion of all scholars. I or other editors should work on it. Quran talks a lot about trinity. The article is incomplete at the moment I think --Aminz 11:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, that is clear, this aricle more like a stub and does not contain all views
Blubberbrein2 11:43, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Problems with page

Valentinians and Ophites cannot be taken as any example of a widespread "Christian" belief in anything, because those people were uninhibited Gnostics who often claimed to reverence Jesus in some way (along with many others that they also reverenced) but had extremely little in common with any form of real mainstream Christianity. If Muslims drag in the Valentinians and Ophites, I could drag in Hassan-i-Sabah, the Qarmatians, Hurufism, Druze, Alawites, Qadianism and the Bahais -- none of this has much relevance to mainstream Christianity (in the first case) or to mainstream Islam (in the second case).

Out-and-out "Mariolatry" was simply not ever a widespread Christian doctrine at any time (though some practices of popular piety among the uneducated approached Mariolatry in some times and places, this was never approved of by Christian scholars). AnonMoos 17:55, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced controversial stuff

I think the article is quite misleading. It presents the Qur'an as claiming that the Christian Trinity consists of God, Mary and Jesus instead of God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus, but the Qur'an makes no so such claim. The verses given here criticize the worship of Jesus and Mary (which is widely practiced by Catholics to this day (From my own experience, as I am from a Catholic background, I was taught a prayer adressed to Mary) and I think it is actually part of the Catholic creed, see the Wikipedia article titled "Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church" or also this page link ) ; but they do not define Trinity, nor do they explicitely identify it with God-Mary-Jesus.

From what I found by looking quickly on the Internet, it does not seem to be a common Muslim belief that the Christian Trinity consists of God, Mary and Jesus. See these articles for example link or link title. On the other hand, it seems to me that this is rather a claim from Christian polemicists to prove that the Qur'an cannot possibly have a divine origin (the logic being that if the author of the Qur'an had a crooked knowledge of Christian beliefs, it can therefore not be the all-knowing God). Have a look at this for example: link title.

Now, what is the mainstream Islamic understanding of the doctrine of Trinity? It would be nice if the claims the article make be justified by quotations from leading Muslim scholars (I mean 'Ulamas or the like). Otherwise, non-sourced polemical and controversial stuff should, I think, be removed, or explained more in detail (but this would require the article ot be thoroughly sourced as well). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.85.103 (talk) 22:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The question is indeed not whether modern Muslims believe that Christians consider the Trinity to be God-Jesus-Mary, but whether the Qur'an does. Evercat (talk) 22:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Quranic View, in reality

Quote: [4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak)the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist,it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,.....................

In the above cited verse, the possible members of trinity, according to their order in verse, could be;

1. Son + Mary + Father (Allah) = Isa + Marium + Allah (wordings according to verse)

2. Father + Holy Spirit (word)+ Mary = His + Word + Marium

3. Son + Father + Holy Spirit = Messiah, Isa son of Marium + Allah + Word

If we just try to make all other possible sets of trinity from the verse, disreagrding the order, then we get following sets;

1. Father + Sons (apostles) + Mary

2. Sons + Mary + Holy Spirit

3. Father + Holy Spirit + Sons

4. Son (son of god, a spirit) + Sons + Son (son of Mary)

5. and many more +++

One can easily notice that actually all possible forms of a christian trinity, be it of any sect or cult, are actually hidden in the verse and with just a little more consideration, one can figure out them easily. one may object that "Holy Spirit" is not mentioned in the verse. Well, the verse has used the phrase" His word which He communicated". We very well know that Holy Spirit or Gabriel is the only angel who performed the duty of ( communicating)messaging between God and earthlings. And in many places Quran has attributed Gabriel, the Holy Spirit as the one who delivers the words of God. Even if u dont accpet this, then we still have a last option, the word spirit itself. It can be taken as a synonym to Holy Spirit which actually should not be the case.

As a matter of fact, actually Quran condemns all forms of trinity and in its address to trinity, does not explicitly mentions the members, rather mentions the concept and this thing is in no way contradictory to the omniscience of the God. As we know time is kept on changing thus the beleifs of the past are not exactly the similar beliefs in present and the beliefs of present will not exactly be the similar beliefs in future; Thus it becomes evident that if an Omniscient God would have explicitly mentioned the members of trinity, it would have been restricted to the concept of trinity for that period only, be it in past or present, but, God has exhausted all the possibilities of trinity and its members in the concerned verses. It would be interesting to know that Hindus also have a concept of cosmic trinity of gods whose members are Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the sustainer & Shiva, the destroyer. Now Hindus could also ask that why did not God mention the members explicitly? It was because of the diversity of cultures and era that God only explicitly mentioned the concept of Trinity, which is a common one but nowhere He has told the names of the members. So, it does prove in this case that God is indeed an omniscient entity and Quran appears to be its true-word.

As for Mary, the God has stressed that people should not worship Jesus and Mary and should not take them gods beside Allah. In this case, we can clearly understand that according to early christians , Mary was concieved as the Mother of Jesus, the Son God. This was a very potential designation for a person to be called as Mother of God, as it is recited in Hail O`Mary. Common people and especially females, could easily think that as Mary is the Mother of God so she is potentially more Important then the Son as she is the one who has begotten him, thus it could cause the worship of Mary and indeed it happened the same way and as u told, still in practice now a days. Thats why, Quran has explicitly mentioned that Neither Jesus nor Mary should be regarded as God in any sense, rather God is alone and not three. Now three in any concept be it Son, Father and Mother OR Son, Father & Holy Spirit OR Son, Holy spirit and Mary OR Mary, Holy spirit and Father whatever......... The concerned verses have sufficiently exhausted all the potential members of christian trinity as well as any other members of any other trinity by just rejecting the very concept of trinity. The concept of trinity was again discussed actually in 5:73 where God says:

Quote: [73] They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Again, the mentioning of the members of the trinity is absent. Only one member that is God, Allah or Father is mentioned. All other members are not mentioned. The same word "Desist" is used in both the verses dealing with trinity but no such word is used in the verse dealing with idolatry. Thus, it becomes clear that the verse 116 of chapter 5 does not deal with the concept of trinity but it deals with the pagan concept of idolatry. As, we also know that the idols of both Jesus and Marry can be found anywhere either in the eastern cultures or in the western cultures which motivates an idolater to worship either or both of them.

Well, one states that wherever three deities would be narrated, it would always mean a Trinity? or potentially a Christian trinity? Before, i make any further response, i would like everyone to consider the fact that if we read Quran, one may find that whenever it addresses the concept of trinity, it remains silent about the members but whenever it addresses the issue of idolatry and forbids the worship of any particular deity/person it explicitly mentions its name*[*53:19-23] Similarly, the verse 116 of chapter 5 does not deal with trinity at all but the idolatry of Jesus and Mary.

In order to understand my above stated statement, let we have a look again that what does the first part of said verse says:

[5:116] And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa the son of Maryam! didst thou say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"

Well, the verse has not mentioned explicitly the word trinity or three as we see. Further in this verse, the word "Derogation" has been used. According to the Cambridge dictionary, derogation means:

derogation no pl 1. lessening menosprecio m 2. abolition abolición f adjective:derogatory showing strong disapproval and not showing respect.

All the meanings of the word strongly suggest that derogation means to lessen or a communication that belittles somebody or something. Before I proceed, let we see what the official Christian concept of trinity is;

Quote: The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV.

Well, it is very clear now that members of trinity are co-eternal and co-equal. Does this concept relates with what is presented in verse 116 of chapter 5? It says "in derogation of God" which explicitly means that lessening the authority and role of God(father) and increasing the role of Mary and Jesus. Thus it is very clear and open that no trinity concept is actually narrated, rather; the idolatry of Jesus & Marry as gods is addressed.

Conclusion:

In the light of all available articles, holy writings and authentic history it is very clear that the verse 116 of chapter 5 of Quran does not address the holy trinity of Christians rather it only addresses the concept of idolatry of Jesus and Mary and condemns the worship of Jesus or Mary or both.

Anyone who has read the verse sees that this argumentation fails. Have a closer look at this: "Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him:"

This tells us that Jesus is:

- an apostle of God

- the word of God which God bestowed on Mary

- a spirit proceeding from God

The verse is not talking about the Holy Spirit when it says "word" or "spirit", it is talking about Jesus.

So in reality, the options that you gave are those:

1. Father + Mother + Son = Allah, Mary and Jesus

2. Father + Mother + Word = Allah, Mary and ... Jesus

3. Father + Son + word = Allah, Jesus and ... Jesus (Jesus in the trinity two times, he must be way more important than Allah ...)

Those other options which include the Holy Spirit would require the Quran to mention the Holy Spirit. And to my knowledge, it does not. So he clearly have a wrong definition of the trinity here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.233.21 (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Muslims do not believe in trinity because:

Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence. ________________________________________

Praise be to Allah who is proof of His existence through His creation, of His being external through the newness of His creation, and through their mutual similarities of the fact that nothing is similar to Him. Senses cannot touch Him and curtains cannot veil Him, because of the difference between the Maker and the made, the Limiter and the limited and the Sustainer and the sustained. He is One but not by the first in counting, is Creator but not through activity or labour, is Hearer but not by means of any physical organ, is Looker but not by a stretching of eyelids, is Witness but not by nearness, is Distinct but not by measurement of distance, is Manifest but not by seeing and is Hidden but not by subtlety (of body). He is Distinct from things because He overpowers them and exercises might over them, while things are distinct from Him because of their subjugation to Him and their turning towards Him.

He who describes Him limits Him. He who limits Him numbers Him. He who numbers Him rejects His eternity. He who said "how" sought a description for Him. He who said "where" bounded him. He is the Knower even though there be nothing to be known. He is the Sustainer even though there be nothing to be sustained. He is the Powerful even though there be nothing to be overpowered.

Praise be to Allah Who lies inside all hidden things, and towards Whom all open things guide. He cannot be seen by the eye of an onlooker, but the eye which does not see Him cannot deny Him while the mind that proves His existence cannot perceive Him. He is so high in sublimity that nothing can be more sublime than He, while in nearness, He is so near that no one can be nearer than He. But his sublimity does not put Him at a distance from anything of His creation, nor does His nearness bring them on equal level to Him. He has not informed (human) wit about the limits of His qualities. Nevertheless, He has not prevented it from securing essential knowledge of Him. So he is such that all signs of existence stand witness for Him till the denying mind also believes in Him. Allah is sublime beyond what is described by those who liken Him to things or those who deny Him.

This is why Muslims can not believe in trinity. --Aminz 20:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity

This is not the place to debate the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity in any great detail, but here's a little explanatory diagram which may clarify the basic nature of the doctrine a little. AnonMoos 18:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's now even an Arabic-language version of the diagram on Arabic Wikipedia at ar:Image:Turs-ul-Iman_Shi'ar-uth-Thaluth.png -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Diagram

I made up a custom image just for this article; click on image for a full explanation. AnonMoos 21:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a useful addition! gr, Peter L 21:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, TO MY MIND, this is not a good addition since it only pushes a particular POV. --Aminz 00:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Christian part of the image is bigger than the Muslim part of the image because the Christian doctrine is more complex than the Muslims view of the Trinity. Did you click on the image and look at all the caveats and footnotes on the image description page? As for "no Muslikms believing that Muhammad claimed that Mary was part of the Christian Trinity", have you looked at http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/marytrin.html ? In any case, I was going along with what was in the main text of the article... AnonMoos 01:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Christians have a complex understanding of Trinity, but Qur'an as I understood, has a simple answer to this claim: There is a distance between the creator and the creatures. (what distance greater than the distance between creator and creation can be imagined?). The Islamic rejection of Trinity does not hinge upon how trinity can be, but to say that it any kind of associating creatures with creators is inconsistent with the character of God, and also the claim that Jesus never said such a thing. Anyway, I couldn't find any passage in the link you sent for me saying that Muhammad believed Mary was a part of trinity. Can you please show me the passage? Also, What is written in the main text is POV. That's why the article is tagged un-neutral. --Aminz 04:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The person above you is trying to create a straw man argument. His implication is the Qu'ran is not the word of God (who is omnipresent so should know what catholics truly believe) but something contrived by Sayydnah Muhammed (PBUH). You're right, its not neutral. The Qu'ran doesn't say anything beyond denying the existence of any form of trinity. Its so simple to understand that it has these crooks grasping for straws. 202.89.188.44

Deviant forms of Trinity

I don't understand this bit from the article:

Masson, William Montgomery Watt and Richard Bell have suggested that this verse criticizes a deviant form of Trinity that overstressed "the distinctiveness of the three persons at the expense of their unity as substance".

Under Islam, any form of Trinitarianism would be deviant. Evercat (talk) 18:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scholars generally place the Qur'anic statements as reactions to the contemporary local beliefs. From the stress on Mary, they try to recover the form of trinity they believed in. Then they compare it with the orthodox Trinity. --AAA765 (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, I feel the article gave undue weight to the idea that these verses aren't referring to the Trinity. Certainly the obvious reading of "God is not the third of three" is as a rebuttal of the Trinity. Evercat (talk) 18:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and who's Griffith? Evercat (talk) 18:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Evercat. I will put a link of the whole article here. If you think the article is giving undue weight to a view, please provide a fair summary. Right now, I am not happy with the current version since it seems your version is giving undue weight to "misunderstanding" idea (which is not a correct word for two reasons: 1. Assuming that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an, he must have got his information from somewhere; hence this is reflecting the belief of some people and hence it can not be a misreperesentation of the belief of those people. And these people were, in anycase, the first people addressed by those verses; 2. The Qur'an does claim describing the orthodox view). --AAA765 (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the link [1].

Please note that this is an article in a prestigious source (Encyclopedia of the Qur'an) written by experts in the field. Also, please note that at this moment some sourced material have been removed. I am happy if the article covers these material in the same vein as the scholarly article. Please check whether the "misunderstanding" idea is the dominant idea in the article so that it would deserve being mentioned at the beginning and then qualified by some later quotes.--AAA765 (talk) 20:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, why shouldn't we have discussion after each verse.

Best wishes, --AAA765 (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your own source notes several times that the Mary-as-part-of-the-Trinity thing is important:

"The teaching in this verse is certainly that Christians place other beings alongside the true God. If it is taken in its context, the implication can be drawn from q 5:72 and 75 that one of these is Jesus [...] it is even possible to infer that the other was Mary"

"this verse has been read in relation to the Trinity and linked with others such as q 6:101, which denies that God has a consort and therefore a son, to assert that Christians believe in a godhead comprising God, Mary and Jesus."

"may be directed at a particular form of deviant belief, such as that associated with the Collyridians [...] This suggestion is helpful in linking the accusation with a historical referent but it raises the problem of why the Qurʾān should take this comparatively little-known belief as a representative formulation of the Trinity."

So I don't think I'm giving it undue weight at all, especially since the only paragraph that mentions it in the article immediately notes that the Qur'an does not explicitly call Mary part of a Trinity, and gives Hulmes view that it's not really a misunderstanding. The article as it is now also mentions the views of Thomas and Griffith.

"Assuming that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an, he must have got his information from somewhere; hence this is reflecting the belief of some people and hence it can not be a misreperesentation of the belief of those people."

It may well reflect the belief of some people, but if he thinks it was the orthodox Christian view then it would be problematic.

"The Qur'an does claim describing the orthodox view"

This doesn't parse as written.

Anyway, I will do a little editing now. Let me know what you think. Evercat (talk) 21:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Evercat, I am very busy in real life and barely surviving. Life is really tough for me. I have a request from you. I ask you that you read the EoQ article and provide an honest summary of that in the article here. I think you are a very good and experienced editor. It is not a matter of me being correct or you. That is not important and I am willing to accept that I am wrong in all places if the article becomes a sincere reflection of the EoQ article(and other scholarly articles). --AAA765 (talk) 22:46, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Griffith

I must say I find Griffith's views extremely implausible. He seems to think that "third of three" is being used as a proper noun which refers to Jesus, and that to say "God is not the third of three" only means "God is not Jesus". This is theology at its worst. Evercat (talk) 22:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Evercat, I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to judge the merit of the view but this view is sufficiently notable to be included in the EoQ article. Wikipedia is not about truth, it is about verifiability. --AAA765 (talk) 22:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]