Talk:Canada

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Yukon uses hydroelectricity.

After reading this wiki, I noticed that Yukon Territory was omitted in the list of provinces who employ hydroelectricity as a major source or electric power. Perhaps this could be added?

Refs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukon - "Economy... follows in importance, along with hydroelectricity"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukon_Energy_Corporation - "YEC has developed a grid that connects hydro facilities in Whitehorse (Schwatka Lake Dam - 40 MW from four wheels, the fourth added in 1983), Aishihik Lake - 30 MW, and the YECL facilities at Fish Lake near Whitehorse. The communities on the "Whitehorse-Aishihik-Faro" grid include Whitehorse, Haines Junction, Champagne, Carcross, Tagish, Marsh Lake, Johnson's Crossing, Teslin, Carmacks, Faro, and Ross River." "The Yukon has no connections to the continental power grid, therefore, YEC cannot sell to or buy from networks"

http://www.yukonenergy.ca/services/renewable/hydro/ - "facilities have the ability to generate 75 megawatts (75 million watts) of power. That’s more than enough to currently serve all our customers."

http://www.yukonenergy.ca/services/non-renewable/ - "we rely on hydro for our energy supply"

Thanks,

Tyler

First history "section"

Working off of what Franamax and I spoke about above, I've taken a stab at condensing the first of the three "sections"; that pertaining to pre-colombian history, exploration, colonisation, the conquest, and the War of 1812. It is 397 words, compared to the present 467 words for the existing part of the history section that covers the same periods. Definitely a start, but could maybe be trimmed more. --G2bambino (talk) 05:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

A condensed version

Traditionally, Canada's Aboriginal peoples hold that they have resided on their lands since the beginning of time, while archaeological studies support a human presence in the northern Yukon from 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario from 9,500 years ago. The first Europeans to arrive were the Vikings, who settled briefly at L'Anse aux Meadows around 1000 AD, after which there was no further trans-Atlantic contact until John Cabot explored Canada's east coast for England in 1497, followed by French explorer Jacques Cartier in 1534. In the early 17th century, Samuel de Champlain founded the first permanent European settlements at Port Royal and Quebec City, from which the French colonists extensively settled the Saint Lawrence River valley and the present-day Maritimes, while French fur traders and Catholic missionaries explored the Great Lakes, Hudson Bay, and the Mississippi watershed to Louisiana. Concurrently, the English set fishing outposts on Newfoundland and established the Thirteen Colonies to the south.

Due to the close proximity of these two European powers, a series of wars over both territory and the fur trade erupted between 1689 and 1763, such as the French and Iroquois Wars, the four Intercolonial Wars, and the Seven Years' War. Via the peace treaties that concluded these conflicts, Acadia and most of New France was ceded to Britain, which then, through the 1763 Royal Proclamation, carved the Province of Quebec out of New France, annexed Cape Breton Island to Nova Scotia, and placed all the former French territories under common law; six years later, St. John's Island became a separate colony. By 1774, the Quebec Act reestablished civil law in Quebec and affirmed the right of its population to practice their Catholic faith, as well as expanding the province's territory to the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley, all of which helped to fuel the American Revolution. From that conflict, some 50,000 persons loyal to the Crown fled to Canada, where new regions were created to accommodate them: New Brunswick was split from Nova Scotia, and Quebec was divided into Upper and Lower Canada.

The latter two became the main front in the War of 1812, and the defence of them contributed to a sense of unity among British North Americans. With British sovereignty reaffirmed, large scale immigration from the British Isles began soon after, and, by the early nineteenth century, the timber industry surpassed the fur trade in importance.

Comments

• a) I like some of the changes in paragraph I. Could we remove the Vikings? They are intersting and important, but not as important as Cabot and Cartier. The English and French would ulitmately stay, after all. We'll need to move it to another article if we decide it's referenced. b) Could we focus and gain consensus on the first paragraph first? There's too much to comment on otherwise. c) Could we remove the pictures from the working text? It's a little distracting otherwise. Thanks --soulscanner (talk) 06:13, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

PS. It's important to mention that Cartier explored the Saint Lawrence River. --soulscanner (talk) 06:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Paragraph 1

Aboriginal traditions maintain that indigenous people have resided on their lands since the beginning of time, while archaeological studies support a human presence in the northern Yukon from 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario from 9,500 years ago. Contemporary European colonization began when John Cabot claimed Canada's Atlantic coast for England in 1497 and Jacques Cartier explored the Saint Lawrence River for France in 1534. --soulscanner (talk) 06:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

1) I disagree with the removal of mention of the Viking settlement; taking it out leaves the impression that the English and French were the first European settlers. 2) "Contemporary" means present day, as far as I know. 3) This paragraph is too short if we are going to stick to Franamax's and my idea above of only three paragraphs per "section". 4) Something about the St. Lawrence and Cartier does seem to be of value. --G2bambino (talk) 07:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I've actually given over to the idea of 4 paras per 3 divisions, as evidenced by by collapsed blue-bit above.

• Not sure about "Aboriginal traditions...time, while" - mythology should not be conflated with history. "since the beginning of time" is true within its own context, but not within Canada - History. Thus, starting with "Archaeological studies...."
• Brief overview of the tribal organization / pre-contact society? (a separate but interlinked society with extensive trade contacts whose interlinks would rapidly spread disease Guns, Germs and Steel J. Diamond)
• Viking failed settlement and Basque fishery are of note.
• It's difficult to accept that "colonization" began with either of Caboto or Cartier - they were explorers and claimers, but not colonizers. Wouldn't Champlain be the first true colonizer? In my revised 3x4 scheme, that's paragraph 2. Franamax (talk) 08:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with the three of you above. I haven't had the time or mood lately to consider exactly how I'd divide the history section up but I like the work that's started here. I agree with soulscanner that it can be reduced further. I agree with G2bambino that the Vikings should be mentioned though very briefly. Perhaps something like: "European contact began with a brief Viking settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows around 1000 AD followed by John Cabot, who claimed Canada's Atlantic coast for England in 1497 and Jacques Cartier, who claimed the Saint Lawrence River area for France in 1534." I agree with Franamax about leaving out the First Nations creation story and I'd like the first sentence to mention the First Nations as more than just a presence but active trading societies. Unfortunately, our Aboriginal peoples in Canada article is seriously lacking. DoubleBlue (Talk) 12:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: Thanks for the commentary. Everyone raises good points. It looks like every sentence is going to require extensive discussion. Perhaps an Rfc is in order to broaden the perspective? Do we tackle the three topics in parallel or one at a time?--soulscanner (talk) 20:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
  • I did add a note at WP:CWNB#Requests for comment a few days ago. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Aboriginal traditions

I'm open to rewording the phrase on aboriginal peoples, but archeologists and historians have been respecting the oral traditions of First Nation and Inuit sources for over 40 years See source from Archives of Canada. The Oral traditions and aboriginal perspectives need to be taken into account for a modern, scientific survey that gives a complete account of modern research into Aboriginal history. in Canada, these pespectives are also given considerable legal weight. Unless someone can find some modern academic or legal source that explicitly rejects the use of oral aboriginal traditions from scholarly research, I see no reason for deleting this phrase. --soulscanner (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I haven't any problem with the oral traditions or giving the First Nations perspective but I don't think it's most valuable in this context. What I'd like to see as the first sentence is a description of what society was like in Canada before contact rather than debating when and how they might have arrived. The First Nations people had been in Canada for tens of thousands of years hunting, gathering, and some farming. They also had extensive trade routes throughout the Americas. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

My cavil on the aboriginal tradition bit is not to deny oral history, just that "since the beginning of time" is objectively untrue in the "History" sense - while remaining true in the mythological sense. We could just as easily say that it all started in 4004 BC, which would be equally inappropriate for a section discussing known facts. Franamax (talk) 04:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Archaeological studies indicate a human presence in the northern Yukon from 26,500 years ago, and in southern Ontario from 9,500 years ago. <refs> The aboriginal population consisted of subsistence dwellers organized into clans and tribes, with extensive trade networks. <need refs> Franamax (talk) 04:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Vikings + Basques

I agree these are of note. I also agree that attempts to use "Contemporary" to account for them is somewhat lame. How do we condense the section on early European exploration without implying that Cabot and Cartier were the first European explorers? The suggestions so far do not condense the section considerably. I'm speaking here as the editor who added these to the article. Footnotes? A better word than contemporary? Or do we absolutely need explicit mention of Viking settlers and Basque Whalers? --soulscanner (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Obviously they are of note, history-wise, but I don't see them as particularly important in this overview as they had little if any lasting effect. I think a passing mention of the Viking settlement is needed so as to not misrepresent that Cabot and Cartier were the first. The Basque whalers, as I see it, had even less impact and need not be mentioned at all here. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Contemporary does not mean present day, it means at the same time but I'm not sure what you were trying to say with that word anyway. My suggestion was to re-word it somewhat as I suggested above. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking more about Basque fishing as opposed to whaling, though they may have set up rendering stations for whaling also. Cod (M. Kurlansky) ISBN 0-676-97111-3 pussyfoots around the topic that Basque fishers were catching lots of fish from somewhere and I've seen that mentioned elsewhere. The Viking bit is easily sourceable, the Basque connection maybe less so. Franamax (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The earliest known European contacts are the Vikings, who briefly established a settlement, and Basque fishermen exploiting the abundant resources off the East shore of Canada.<ref><Basque ref>(+ better wording & expand in footnotes) Franamax (talk) 04:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Cartier and Cabot

Cartier did try a settlement at Stadacona in 1535. It failed, mostly due to bad relations with the natives and a brutal winter. I think the main point is that they made documented claims on the territory that stuck (however tenuous at the time). The Vikings and Basques did not. Evidence of their presence is in the form of archeology and oral traditions. If we were forced to shorten this section, I'd vote to keep these two over the Basques and Vikings. --soulscanner (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Cabot and Cartier, I think, are very important. While we mightn't put much importance in someone planting a flag and sailing away today, it was taken more seriously then and trespassers from other lands would know that they risked a battle if they dared to counter-claim it. The idea of "ownership" by France and England shaped the future development of North America. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly apropos, just throwing this in: "European contact devastated the existing population through transmission of disease to which the native peoples had no immunity" (ref. Guns, Germs and Steel J. Diamond). Too much detail? - but certainly explains why the explorers found "an empty land". No placement in mind, just throwing it out there. Franamax (talk) 05:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it is too much. I keep getting tempted to have an entire paragraph on the First Nations pre-colonial period but to keep this section manageable, I think we aim for mentioning key points in history with links to articles for more information. That's why our article on Aboriginal peoples in Canada is so disappointing. DoubleBlue (Talk) 05:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yow! That's an article that could use another 50KB of editing - it's missing a whole lot of the story. If we can all get through this little project, I'd be happy to take that as the next one. Agree with your other points. Franamax (talk) 06:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Paragraph 12

Paragraph 12 reads funny. It's unclear what "this growth" refers to. I think the esentence should be wikified as well. Any other possible improvements?

Canada's post war period saw Newfoundland join Confederation in 1949, population growth driven by a baby boom and European immigration, and unprecedented prosperity. This growth, combined with the policies of successive Liberal governments, led to the emergence of a new Canadian identity, marked by the adoption of the current Maple Leaf Flag in 1965, the implementation of official bilingualism in 1969, and official multiculturalism in 1971.--soulscanner (talk) 00:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

minor typo in History section

In the History section, the phrase "ruled that" is not separated from the following word.

Bob (talk) 22:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Now fixed - thanks for the notice. AlexiusHoratius 22:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

factual issue

In the section on law it states that only Quebec and Ontario do not use the RCMP, however, Newfoundland and Labrador also have a provincial police force (Royal Newfoundland Constabulary). :w (talk) 00:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Good question but Newfoundland does use the RCMP for local policing in most of the province and the RNC in major metropolitan areas. DoubleBlue (talk) 00:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

And the RCMP does operate in Ontario in its guise of tackling organised crime, money crime etc. Canterbury Tail talk 12:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in the Dominion of Canada,

http://www.rnc.gov.nl.ca/

has the Police Service of Northern Ireland post-2001 ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_Service_of_Northern_Ireland

as the historical linkage to the Royal Irish Constabulary for Irish Free State, and the Royal Ulster Constabulary for the Province of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland..

All Provinces and Territories in the Dominion of Canada have active units of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

The Province of Ontario has the Ontario Provincial Police ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Provincial_Police

but the RCMP still patrols Federal Roads and Inter-provincal Bridges.

The Province du Quebec has the Surete du Quebec (Quebec Provincial Police) ...

but again the RCMP still patrols Federal Roads and Inter-provincal Bridges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Provincial_Police

The Province of New Brunswick has a highway patrol ...

http://members.shaw.ca/wolfpatch/NBHP/History/

but the RCMP does EVERTHING ELSE.

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Is this about the Dominion thing? GoodDay (talk) 22:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Howdy.... no actually

Errata: Peculiar Tid-bit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Provincial_Police#OPP_in_pop_culture

The Beatles John Lennon had an OPP Patch on his Sgt. Pepper Uniform. Strange, but true....

ArmchairVexillologistDonLives! (talk) 22:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Per the article "in rural areas of all provinces except Ontario and Quebec, policing is contracted to the federal [RCMP]", which appears to be a factually true statement. What action is required? Do you propose a different wording? Franamax (talk) 02:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)