Talk:Aikido

Training

There is another aspect of training that was not covered but there IS a wikipedia article about it because it is also a kenjitsu practice, the name escapes me at the moment. Its practicing weapons work on your own... shi-something or su-something...—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.40.237 (talk • contribs)

I believe you are referring to suburi, but I'm not certain how universal the use of that term is in an aikido context, especially where a significant number of aikido schools don't practice kenjutsu at all, and many others draw their kenjutsu practice from various sources either in addition to or instead of the kenjutsu that Ueshiba taught. If you have a good reference, though, we might be able to work it in somewhere. Bradford44 (talk) 12:04, July 29, 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'll look for a citation but I'd appreciate if it was suggested with a "citation needed" or something. I use the wikipedia aikido page to look up the japanese words involved and Im sure others do the same :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.18.19.178 (talk) 01:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ki kanji parts

I believe that the ki kanji is not the combination of a lid and rice, but steam/vapor and rice - boiling rice, if you like, indeed a central life force in China and Japan. 81.216.206.7 (talk) 19:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

That is also what I heard from a Japanese language instructor, that it is steam over boiling rice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.18.19.178 (talk) 01:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

This is also clearly stated in the Wikipedia text on qi. I believe that the aikido text needs to be changed on this issue, but that also calls for a change of the following sentence, which seems to make conclusions from another interpretation of the kanji etymology. Stefan Stenudd 81.216.206.7 (talk) 15:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Taninzugake

I allowed myself to enter the terms mostly used for multiple attackers: taninzudori and taninzugake. To my knowledge, the latter is more established than the former. See for example Aikikai Hombu Dojo grading rules (3rd dan): http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/gradingsystem.htm So, maybe only the latter term would suffice in the text? Also used are futaridori/futarigake (for two attackers), and (more rarely) sannindori (for three attackers). Stefan Stenudd 81.216.206.7 (talk) 15:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Weapons

There are some additions and changes I would like to see in the chapter about weapons in aikido. It is reasonable to mention that defense against sword attacks is called tachidori, and defense against jo attacks is jodori. Also, tantodori, defense against knife attacks should be mentioned here. These things are part of the aikido curriculum in most (but not all) aikido styles and organizations. See for example Aikikai Hombu Dojo grading rules (2nd dan and up): http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/gradingsystem.htm Furthermore, to my knowledge the terms aiki-ken and aiki-jo are neither of Morihiro Saito's invention, nor exclusive to students of his type of aikido. The paragraph about these terms gives that impression. Also, I would prefer that the terms are written aikiken and aikijo, but that might just be me :) There may also be reason to mention Shoji Nishio's extensive weapons training, and inclusion of it in his style of aikido - to balance the impression given by the existing text that such things would be additions in the Iwama line of aikido only. Stefan Stenudd 81.216.206.7 (talk) 15:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that within the Iwama Ryu and Iwama style tradition, weapons training is usually referred to as bukiwaza. Stefan Stenudd 81.216.206.7 (talk) 20:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Even though it might not be the most common name the knife "tanto" is also known as "tanken" and therefore you might also stumble into the concept of "tankendori". Aikidoka66 (talk) 20:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

When aikido "got" its name

I have temporarily pulled the following text from the article, which was just added by Aikidoka66:

According to [[Morihiro Saito]] Aikido got it's official name in 1941.<ref name="AIHA">{{cite book
| last = Saito
| first = Morihiro
| title = Aikido: Its Heart and Apperance
| publisher = Minato Research & Publishing CO.; LTD
| year = 1984
| pages = 12
| location = Tokyo, Japan
| isbn = 0-8740-345-1
}}</ref>

I think this is a great addition, but it needs a little more context in order to fit in with the article. I don't have access to the source cited, so if someone could clear up what it means for aikido to "get" an official name, or could repeat the line from the book that Saito uses, I think this sentence could be revised slightly and go right back in the article. For example, did aikido 'get' its name in 1941 because that's just when Saito remembers Ueshiba began to use the term, or does Saito recall a specific day in 1941 when Ueshiba showed up for training with a great big "AIKIDO" sign that he hung up outside the dojo? Right now however, the sentence doesn't really have any useful meaning, and I can't support its inclusion as-is. Bradford44 (talk) 14:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I might have been a little fast in writing that...:) In Saitos book it is just stated that it was used in 1941 and it is not conneted with any specific event. I consulted another source(Aikido the way of harmony by John Stevens under the directions of Shirata Rinjiro) and it states 1942 as the year when aikido, as a name, was used officially for the first time. So my contribution wasn't the best... :) Aikidoka66 (talk) 20:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

capitalization of aikido

Can someone give reference to the reason that aikido is not capitalized in this article? Thanks. User5802 (talk) 02:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found it here. User5802 (talk) 02:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Roots on Tokugawa era

I think it would be nice to add on the historical part of the main text, that the roots of Aikido are to be found on the 16th century, during the first years of the Tokugawa period. People should know of its noble roots, to present the idea that Aikido does not belong to the tradition of "rural" martial arts. The "school of mistical circles", was a secret art, known only to the high class of warriors, responsible for the protection of the field lords inside their palaces (the secrecy was, of course, due). It was not an art intented to be used on open batlefields, and it remained a secret of this "elite force" until the end of the Tokugawa period, in 1860 (some good 300 years!), while other arts have been openly taught in Japan since then . It was only then that this art was opened to the general public, and taught to anyone, for the high class of warriors, seeing the end of their reign, feared for its desapearance. Even tough Aikido is a popular international art nowadays, it is still seen as noble art in Japan. -- Preceeding was added by User:200.189.112.21

If there are are sources (books or well researched articles) for the information you're talking about, maybe we can find a way to add a mention. Feel free to list those source(s) here if you know of one/some. And please remember to sign your posts to talk pages with four tildes. —Mrand ^{Talk • C} 14:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure Mrand. I collected these informations mainly on a book entitled "secrets of the samurai", by Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook. But the bibliographical research of this book is quite big. I'm sure the research on these informations could go way deeper.

Paul - December 4th. 11:30 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.189.112.21 (talk) 13:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Here on the discussion page, feel free to propose some text that could be included , along with a proper reference (title, author, publisher, page number, ISBN, etc). —Mrand ^{Talk • C} 16:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure Mrand, here are the text and reference:

"The Schools of Aikijutsu. (...) It is recorded that more than 700 years ago there existed to the north of Mount Fuji a school of Budo - the ancient martial arts. This school specialized in the teaching of so-called Aiki-jutsu which was kept secret and disclosed to only a few disciples, for the most part nobles of ancient lineage.

This art had originated from Ken-Jutsu or swordsmanship, and little by little it had become an art of combat superior to Ju-Jutsu. (Harrison, 79) (Secrets of the Samurai, page 355). (...) The central idea of Aiki, was that of using the cordinated power of ki (intrinsic or inner energy) in harmony (ai) with the various requirements and circumstances of combat, that is, with the opponent's strategy, his weapons, his personality and so forth.

(...) Among these ancient schools, one of the most renowned was the Daito ryu. According to a modern bujutsu expert, Mr. Tomiki of the Kodokan, the manuscript of instruction of certain secret martial arts (den-sho), compiled during feudal era, refer to the aikijutsu practiced by this school dating back to the Kamakura period. The school itself was reportedly founded by Minamoto Yoshimitsu (1120), better known in various Japanese epics as Yoshitsune, and the art was practiced by the warriors of the Minamoto clan for several centuries before being inherited by the Takeda family (part of the military Aizu clan).

The legitimate teacher of the art derived from aikijutsu, according to the Japanese system of hierarchical transmition by blood, adoption, or affiliation, was Master Ueshiba Morihei, the founder of Aikido. The specific doctrine of aikido, however, links the beginning of this particular school of aikijutsu (that is, the Daito ryu) to the sixth son of Emperor Seiwa, Prince Sadasumi, who lived in the ninth century. How the concept of ai was actually embodied in the ancient techniques of aikijutsu practiced by the Daito school, we have no way of knowing today.

The fluid beauty and impressive efficiency of the method, however, are evident in the modern interpretation of the techniques practiced in schools of aikido. If one watches these techniques being preformed in combat against one or several opponents, with weapons or without, it is not difficult to understand why, in early times (as Harrison put it), aikijutsu "had become an art of combat superior to Ju-Jutsu". Master Ueshiba Morihei was virtually the last representative of those schools of aikijutsu, which, through him, have filtered down from feudal ages of Japan to the twentieth century.

(Secrets of the samurai -martial arts of feudal japan - pages 356-358/Oscar RATTI - Adele WESTBROOK, publisher: Tuttle company. First edition 1973)".

Actually I made a mistake when I said that the roots were on the Tokugawa period. The correct would be "roots on Kamakura/Bakufu era, starting in 1185! The roots are 800, not 300 years old! Perhaps some of these informations could be included in the main page, to enrich the "history" section. I hope my contribution is worth! Paul - December 13th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.21.136.218 (talk) 14:52, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Most of that stuff is relevant primarily to Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, which has its own article, and it is covered over there. Our article already mentions that Aikido was derived / developed from DRA, so we don't really need to re-hash the history of DRA in our article.

Quite a bit of problematic assertions in the material you have posted above, however. There are basically two main problems that I have with what you've posted:

1) The link between Aikido and Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is so overstated that it seems like the authors believe that they are the same thing.

2) It is debateable whether DRA is 800 years old or if that was simply the kind of marketing ploy common in the 1800s.

I apologize for not being able to document my counter-assertions as you have. My understanding has been informed by blog posts on www.aikidojournal.com by Ellis Amdur, Peter Goldsbury, and others, and by John Steven's biography of O Sensei.

Basically, my picture is that there was this amazing guy named Sokaku Takeda, of samurai birth, who trained diligently in a number of different schools of fighting techniques. He earned a name for himself and decided to start his own ryu. As was not uncommon in those days, or these days for that matter, he claimed that it was a secret, ancient art. He took on Ueshiba as a student, and Ueshiba opened his own school in a very short time - like 5 years or so. The two had a rather well-known falling out and Ueshiba changed the name of what he was teaching at his dojo to "aikibudo." Ueshiba became a famous martial artist in his own right, had a number of formative person experiences, and got more and more spiritual as he got older. Aikido as we know it today in its many forms was actually developed by Ueshiba's students.

Anyway, while you've done a better job than I have in documenting what you want to add to the article, the source seems a bit questionable.Transentient (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC).

Dear friend, I agree with what you've written here. My only real sugestion is that perhaps the main article should mention the noble origin of Aikido, coming from samurai families as you said yourself, all the way till it reached Master Ueshiba, instead of the rural or farmer roots of most popular "empy-handed" martial arts (since for the whole of Tokugawa period, by comand of Iyeasu Tokuagawa himself, weapons were prohibited in the whole of the japanese peninsula, exept, of course, for the noble warrior class). In my view it's simply a historical sugestion. The roots of Aikido are to be found on Kenjutsu - a "full-handed" art, the samurai art par excellence!! I think this is relevant mostly because people who are not acquainted with aikido oftenly ask why the practitioners wear those "black skirts!!" The direct answer lies on the fact that the Hakama (the black skirts) was, for a long period of time, the traditional clothing of the noble class in Japan, and all martial arts related to the noble class still wears them today, such as Kenjutsu, Iaido, Kyudo and so forth, while most popular japanese martial arts wear solely the Gi. Since this is an encyclopedical site, the informations should be clear enough to the point that people with no knowledge whatsoever of this art may have their questions answered (and believe me, as foolish as it may seem, the "hakama" question is quite often asked. Those who teach or practice any of these many arts which wear hakama know what I talking about!). Besides, just for the record, I only mentioned on single book as reference, but the bibliography on this book is quite vast, covering many other aspects on japanese martial arts history and philosophy, not only of aikido, but of most martial arts linked directly or not to samurai history. Paul - December 18th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.4.9.136 (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Paul, I respect your take on the nature of the art, but you seem to have kind of an agenda to have your point of view reflected in our article. Wikipedia is not he place for original research and we strive to keep the point of view of our article neutral. We don't need to explain the development of Japanese warrior culture for 300 years before Aikido was created in order to have an excellent article on Aikido. There are already articles on Tokugawa, the Edo period, and hakama. So first point is, that information may be relevant but it doesn't belong in our article.

Secondly, you may not find consensus around here with your basic gist.

1) The characterization of Aikido as a "samurai art" is not factually true, since there were no samurai after 1868, which was before Aikido actually existed. Most people who practice it certainly feel there is a kind of spiritual sucession, but the realities of what samurai tradition and spirit actually were are complex and there is a heavily negative side that not all of us choose to claim succession from.

2) The concept that Aikido is "derived from sword arts" is a subject of lively debate among English-speaking luminaries.

3) The ban on weapons you mention was a little different than you characterize it. For example, it was common for merchants to send one of their sons to train in the various fighting arts, in the hopes that they might merit a job as a retainer and thus move up in the world.

4) Aikido has a very good claim to being a rural, farm-oriented martial art, due to O Sensei's interest in agriculture and the fact that Abe and Iwama are the most important sites in the the man's spiritual development. I don't think that's exactly what you mean; the fact of the matter is that ALL indigenous japanese fighting arts are samurai arts, with the possible exception of Sumo.

5) Hakama are simply traditional clothing; western practitioners of budo have been known to fetishize them but they are ultimately just pants. But that's an issue best left up to the hakama article.

I recommend you go to www.aikidjournal.com, www.aikiweb.com, and www.e-budo.com. Search for articles and forum posts by the following people: Ellis Amdur, Peter Goldsbury, and Meik Skoss, just for starters. Get your hands on Ellis Amdur's two books, _Dueling with O Sensei_ and _Old School._ Also read John Steven's biography of O Sensei. I am certain you will find all of this material to be extremely interesting and enlightening! 64.214.53.2 (talk) 18:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Those are great reading suggestions. As an aside, Westbrook and Ratti's books (such as Secrets of the Samurai, and Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, which is actually cited many times in the article) are great also, but you have to understand that they have specific philosophical agenda, and are 30+ years old. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be required reading for all aikidoka, they should, but a wider perspective is a must if you want to present a neutral and encyclopedic view of aikido. Despite what you might read, very little is truly known. Everything else is ultimately speculation with many theories of variable validity, as Transentient has already very elegantly explained, and which following the above reading suggestions will reveal. Bradford44 (talk) 18:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Pushing vs Pulling

"In aikido pushing or extending movements are much more common than pulling or contracting movements. This distinction can be applied to general fitness goals for the aikido practitioner.[2]

Certain anaerobic fitness activities, such as weight training, emphasize contracting movements."

Whoever wrote the above doesnèt know anything about basic biomechanics. Every human movement is the result of muscle contractions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.171.217.37 (talk) 15:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Each muscle can only be contracted but the composite movement of several muscles can be either pushing or pulling. jmcw (talk) 09:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)