Talk:TNA World Championship

title History

I agree with adding the other wrestler to the list it make sense these is no different then when WWF broke off from the NWA they use the wrestler NWA regin as their WWF regin MikeC 08:37, 08 October 2008 (UTC)

Well if you can give actual proof that each and everyone of the people that held the NWA belt when it was in TNA also held the TNA belt they can be added, other than that they aren't TNA World Heavyweight Champions. They did not win the TNA belt so they aren't champions. We have to go by facts not what TNA wants to believe.--WillC 19:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

because whenever the NWA give the title to a company it become that company title Look at the WWF title Half of those regin is when the WWF title was call the NWA-WWF title MikeC 08:37, 08 October 2008 (UTC)

It was still the WWF title though. TNA never had the NWA-TNA World Heavyweight Championship. They had the NWA Championship. The reigns do not go over. The titles are two different championships.--WillC 20:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Then that should be said about WCW and ECW and WWE as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supermike (talk • contribs) 23:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

That isn't my problem sorry. I handle TNA stuff. You have to go discuss that with people who work on that mainly.--WillC 23:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Unofficial Reigns

The unofficial reigns listed on this page were never "TNA World Heavyweight Title" reigns. They were "NWA World Heavyweight Title" reigns "in TNA". They should be listed on the NWA page, NOT TNA! 70.68.62.37 (talk) 04:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

They are listed on the NWA title history but Cage was NWA Champion when TNA lost the belt making him the TNA Champion. As a result of Angle winning the belt and TNA calling him and Cage TNA Champions on the Impact! after Sacrifice. It made them unofficial champions. What is the problem anyway, they aren't in the official reigns list? It has its own section.--WillC 04:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I think we should just go by what TNA Wrestling actually says. They acknowledge that Kurt Angle was their first ever TNA World Heavyweight Champion at Slammiversary 2007. Christian Cage doesn't even recognize himself as a TNA Champion because that would make him a 3-time champion, he claims he's a 2-time champion. I even met him a few months ago and he said he's the champ and he's a 2-time World Heavyweight Champion. He was doing a little promo jokingly, but he did say 2-time, and those 2-times are the NWA belt he had, not a TNA belt. 70.68.62.37 (talk) 04:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

His NWA title reign is technically one continuous reign. He never lost the NWA title, he went from it to TNA. Plus TNA's reigns on TNA Wrestling.com includes the NWA reigns. Look it up. This way is a compromise. Since you can't prove he wasn't TNA's Champion which is TNA's World Heavyweight Champion which the belt symbolizes. And you can't prove that he was never a TNA champion. The Unofficial reigns table is there to compromise that.--WillC 04:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I see we are now recognizing champions all the way back to Ken Shamrock. Good idea, make everyone happy. That's how it should be done anyway. Those champions are recognized both by the NWA and TNA. MC511 (talk) 10:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

...How does that "make everybody happy" when that's the thing we're arguing about? Jeff Silvers (talk) 14:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

They are separate titles. But the reigns are recognized by both companies. What if we had BOTH versions on the page, but hid the combined NWA/TNA reigns in collapsible tables and mentioned that the status of the title(s) is disputed? Gavyn Sykes (talk) 14:52, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I like this idea. Jeff Silvers (talk) 14:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Fine with me, I'm tired of all the ips adding in the NWA Champions anyway.--WillC 16:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

If we get rid of the unofficial reigns, I'll be happy with just that. Those don't belong there. MC511 (talk) 22:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

They do belong in the article. Prove to me Cage and Angle were not TNA Champions. Prove it. Prove that as a result of Cage being TNA's Championn at the time he lost the NWA Title that it did not make him the TNA Champion.--WillC 22:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I did not see the TNA Title at Sacrifice 2007. I saw the NWA Title. The next night on iMPACT, Jim Cornette said Angle is not champion and never was TNA Champion. He was NWA Champion though that night at Sacrifice, the next day though he was not given the status as being TNA Champion, as Angle thought. Cornette did not sanction it, so he made a KOTM match to crown the first champion. It's very easy to understand, I have the iMPACT episode too if you want. MC511 (talk) 22:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

No No No, I saw that same episode, that was the second Impact I ever saw. I also saw it on TNA's youtube account. A physical belt is not needed to be known as a champion. I.E. the OVW Hardcore Championship, it was a trash can. Also if you want to get technicall the WCW World Title was the NWA title in the early days of breaking away so the belt can be renamed or used under a different name. So just because it said NWA means nothing. He never said that, he said Angle you are not the champion as well as Sting and Cage aren't. He never said he was never the champion. He made the King of the Mountain to crown the undisputed TNA champion. Not the first champion. Even at Slammiversary 07 Don West said the first ever Undisputed TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Not the first ever champion, just the undisputed champion.--WillC 23:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

We're going to have to pull a clip from Slammiversary 2007 because I never heard the words 'undisputed' in Don West's speech. MC511 (talk) 23:26, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Look up the King of the Mountain match on TNA's youtube, I believe that is where I heard Don West say first undisputed TNA Champion.--WillC 23:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe he said first pure TNA World Champion. 41.245.165.219 (talk) 06:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I heard undisputed. Does it matter what he said, in the wrestling world those two words mean the samething.--WillC 06:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I realize this may count as OR, but undisputed means "universally recognized". "First pure champion" means first TNA Champion that is only TNA's Champion, and not also someone else's Champion. Thus the first pure Champion of TNA who was not also Champion of another group or body (ie. the NWA). 41.245.165.219 (talk) 06:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Pure does not mean first champion, it means undisputed. Pure is used when it is clean, there is no dispute along with it. If it was the first champion there would be no reason for pure within the sentence. Instead West would have said First TNA World Heavyweight Champion, not pure. He was referring to the problems leading to the event, the match being to crown the first undisputed champion. Not the first champion. Now I could be wrong but the question is how can you back up your claim that he was referring to the first real TNA champion?--WillC 07:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I interpreted it as meaning the first TNA-only Champion, as opposed to being the NWA Champion wrestling in TNA. Either way though it's not really a valid source as such. The only way to make sure would be to get a written statement from West describing what he actually meant(whatever it was he said). It now appears that there are at least 3 different answers to the question "Who was the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion?" which is not a good thing. Maybe the earlier suggestion that there be 2 or 3 different boxes, each representing one take, should be implemented? 41.245.165.219 (talk) 08:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The extra tables do seem like a good idea, but whatever is done, as long as it still allows the article to get to GA one day. I'm fine with it. Though that is probably greatly in the future when a list can be made for the article.--WillC 14:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Don West did in fact say first "pure" TNA World Heavyweight Champion. 70.68.62.37 (talk) 16:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The article needs to correspond to the official TNA position, but Angle's first reign needs to be listed as an unofficial reign. Thus, as of October 19 2008, Sting is a 3-time TNA World Heavyweight Champion, Jeff Jarrett is a 6-time TNA World Heavyweight Champion, Christian Cage is a 2-time World Heavyweight Champion etc. Secreatarian (talk) 11:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It does not have to go by TNA history. It has to go by the facts. TNA's history is not fact.--WillC 20:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

A lot of people seem to disagree with your beliefs Will. Why are you the one who gets the final say? MC511 (talk) 02:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the one who gets the final say, but I'm going by facts. There is no way to prove that Ron Killings or Ken Shamrock held the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Many will agree that they aren't TNA champions. As a result of them not being there is no reason to have them in the article. TNA only has that verison up for legal reasons.--WillC 03:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not a legal issue for TNA, they can use the NWA name if they want from the time that they were partnered together. 70.68.62.37 (talk) 23:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Kurt Angle's first reign

I notice that TNA are not recognizign Kurt Angle's May 13- May 14 2007 World Title reign. Regardless of whether he was TNA Champion of the World Heavyweight Division, or NWA Champion of the World Heavyweight Division, is it not true that TNA did at the time actually regard this as a proper World Title stint? Excepting that they were saying it was until May 17 2007. This probably because they used the Impact!!!!! airing date not the date of TV taping. Anyways, TNA.com now saying that Angle is 2-time World Champion in TNA. Funny this, as they are also saying Sting 3-time World Champion in TNA, which includes both before and after split reigns. So question now is, if TNA saying all Champions in TNA were TNA Champions, such as AJ Styles 3-time Champion of the World Heavyweight Division, and Sting 3-time Champion of the World Heavyweight Division, then surely Kurt Angle also 3-time Champion of the World Heavyweight Division? Funny this now TNA.com saying Angle only 2-time Champion of the World Heavyweight Division in TNA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This seems wrong, as person put link earlier on this discusion page saying that in JUne 2007 TNA calling Angle 2-time Champion of the World Heavyweight Division in TNA, which was winnings on May 13 2007 and then June 17 2007 in TNA over lots of people. If now TNA now saying Angle 2-time Champion of the World Heavyweight Division in TNA, certainly wikipidia should say that Anglew really 3-time Champion of the World Heavyweight Division in TNA!!!!!!! Any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.187.61 (talk) 12:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes! Read the article! Angle's May 13-May 14 reign is listed as "unofficial reign". Unfortunately Christian Cage is listed as the 6-hour unofficial champion or some such concept, which most people here disagree with(see vote). Dr Rgne (talk) 16:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Removing all reigns etc?

What has happened to the page? Why have all the champions etc been removed without discussion? I tried reinstating them as to the earlier consensus, but was warned for "vandalism"!!!!!!!! 41.245.185.54 (talk) 13:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to stop this ridiculous edit war

How about splitting the reign recognition between each promotion, like it was done for the List of WCW World Tag Team Champions.--TRU_CO 01:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

That would not work since the TNA title and NWA title are two different belts with histories that do not intertwine. I am going to make a list of World Heavyweight Champions in TNA to encompass the NWA title history and TNA title histories as a compromise. I just have no done it yet. Waiting till I finish all the 2008 ppvs, since I'll take it to FLC.--WillC 02:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually it can work. The NWA doesn't treat it as the same lineage, but TNA does, which is all that matters. Split the reigns into NWA and TNA recognized reigns, and then only TNA recognized reigns. Just say that originally the NWA title was used but when the NWA took it back, TNA continued the lineage of the NWA title from TNA's inception to present.--TRU_CO 02:06, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thats wrong. TNA has yet to ever recognize the NWA linage as part of the TNA title. Only the website does. They called Angle the first ever pure TNA World Champion. The belt has its own completely new history. Plus they refer to people who won the NWA title as winning the World Championship and not the NWA or TNA World Heavyweight Championship on TNA.com. It would be inactuate.--WillC 02:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

"For simplicity sake, TNA refers to all NWA-branded championship reigns during the company's existance as TNA championship reigns." Just thrown that in there somewhere and be done with it. Mshake3 (talk) 05:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It is not correct. When the belt was unveiled, never did they say the NWA Championship history goes with the belt. All articles should be actuate. There is no source that when the belt was created that TNA recognize it like WCW did after they broke from the NWA. They are two different belts with two different histories.--WillC 05:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of what they did nearly two years ago, in November 2008, this is what they do now. And again, it's not about rewriting history. It's about keeping things simple. A recent promo with Mick Foley and AJ Styles referred to AJ's Triple Crown, with all the titles referred to as TNA Championships. Accurate? Technically no. Better than switching between NWA and TNA in the promo (or in the case of the tag titles, using both)? Hell yeah.

While the TNA World Heavyweight Championship was established in May 2007, TNA refers to all NWA-branded championship reigns from their company history as TNA-branded championships. While inaccurate, this was likely done to easily reference their collective history in it's entirely.

The grammar needs a little work at the end, but something like that should be added to the article. And hopefully this'll stop others from adding the NWA reigns. Mshake3 (talk) 06:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Now that I can agree with, as long as the NWA reigns are never added to the article. The article List of World Heavyweight Champions in Total Nonstop Action Wrestling can then be made to further the compromise and that can be placed under the above quote stating for World Champion in TNA see List of World Heavyweight Champions in Total Nonstop Action Wrestling; just give me about two weeks to work on the article. I'm just for not adding in the NWA reigns. Stating that TNA considers all NWA champions are TNA champions is alright. Just adding in the reigns I'm against.--WillC 08:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

May I just ask who appointed you particularly as the World's Foremost Authority? There appear to have been various people commenting on the Christian Cage inclusion, saying it is non-encyclopediac and OR, there was even a vote which went against including it, yet you chose to include it, due to some imaginary "consensus". Likewise, the official TNA version, while revisionism, is nonetheless the official TNA version of events, and should be at least discussed rationally, rather than dismissed out of hand. After all, the NWA's official version of their World Title, is revisionist garbage, yet wikipedia takes it seriously! I appreciate that this is the TNA World Title page, but why should one version(beginning with Cage) take precedence over any other conflicting version, when it seems to be the one that fewest people(both editors and secondary sources) agree upon, and likewise makes the least sense? Merely because the person who created this article in the first place felt that way? Could you please explain thoroughly, without merely alluding to some "consensus" that, having spent a LOT of time reading through the archives, I can see never existed in any shape or form? 41.245.166.168 (talk) 07:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

TNA within a few days after the Sacrifice title match actually did give Cage a 3rd title reign because of the NWA split before the PPV going to air. It might be archived in the discussions here. I remember it myself. They of course took it down, changed it before altogether just taking down the title history from their site. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 17:59, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Read our discussion archives here, we talked about the changes to TNA's site as they happened. It was pretty ridiculous. [1] TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 18:06, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

But you have no proof(link, source etc) that TNA ever credited Cage with a 3rd reign. If someone is able to provide a reliable source that TNA ever credited Cage with a 3rd, separate, "TNA World Championship" reign, then yes, that would be so. But as it stands, the only reliable sources ssay that Cage only ever held 2 World Championships in TNA. 41.245.166.168 (talk) 18:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I know for sure we didn't fabricate our discussion. We saw it happen. Sorry but Wikipedia has a policy against revisionism in many regards, TNA revised their title history to say Christian didn't hold the TNA title when at one point they said he did. We have to take that into account, it's apart of history, you can't just change it. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 20:58, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

But where is your source that TNA said he did? I am not changing anything. All I am doing is asking you if TNA did at one point claim Cage was a 3-time World Champion, could you please provide some link or reference besides saying "I saw it" or "they used to say so". If TNA did indeed say that, then it should be included but nobody seems able to provide a reliable source, and then says "Revisionism!" when asked to provide a source, link, anything.. Since there is no reliable source, the information should not be included. People HAVE been able to prove/source that TNA did at one point recognize Angle's May 13 - May 14 2007 reign as official, so that should remain, but as for Cage's "TNA Champion for a few hours" reign, all we have is your word. 41.245.166.168 (talk) 09:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why WillC and TonyFreakinAlmeida are the bosses here. But anyway, I agree with making a World Champions in TNA page, but I also think we should do a World Tag Team Champions in TNA page. However, just to make life easier, why can't we just include the NWA-TNA champions on these official TNA champion pages? We don't have to attach the champions to the list, we can do a separate table like we have done for the unofficial TNA World Heavyweight Champions, which include Christian Cage and Kurt Angle -- which I disagree with by the way. Christian was never booked as being "TNA" World Heavyweight Champion. He was NWA Champion, and JB announced him as so, and Kurt Angle won the "NWA" World Heavyweight Title. On iMPACT! he said in the pre-video package to open the show that this was the greatest title he's ever won because of the lineage and history. Due to the severing of the relationship of the NWA and TNA though, Angle did not come down with the NWA Title, but instead with the TNA Title which was wrongfully done on his part. If you remember the TNA Today videos on YouTube, JB introduced the new TNA World Title and said no one owns it right now, and he said something along the lines that I better keep a tight grip on this before either Cage, Sting, or Angle steal it! Well, that lead to Angle walking out with the title on iMPACT!, and Jim Cornette came down and said Angle is NOT the champion, just like Eric Young was NOT the X-Division Champion against Sheik Abdul Bashir. Are we just being biased with Angle here then? THAT'S WRONG if so. Same goes for Christian Cage. These reigns never were counted. And TonyFreakinAlmeida, if you "saw" anything, I'm sure it was just a hiccup through the process of transferring the NWA Title to the TNA Title on the website. Such BS like you insinuate was never instituted as fact on their TV programs. Everything you see on their site now was the way they wanted things to play out ultimately, it was just a matter of everyone getting their facts straight over there. I hope everyone can get their butts in gear here now and STOP this edit war. Let's do it RIGHT for once and not put in these bogus reigns like Cage and Angle. I'm fine with adding the NWA reigns if the transition is mentioned. After all, TNA billed them as NWA-TNA champions somethings/all the time they were booked in the indies. Canamerican (talk) 20:00, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

We can't add the NWA Champions in the article because there is no source other than TNA's revisionism that Jeff Jarrett, Ron Killings, Ken Shamrock, etc held the TNA Championship. They won and defended the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. The simple thing to do is make an article that list all World Champions in TNA. Remove Cage's reign, I don't care anymore as long as it ends this stupid argument that has been going on since the day this page was made. Then you can list the NWA Champions and TNA World Champions together. State in the TNA Championship page that TNA recognise all NWA Champions under the promotion as TNA Champions, but due to them not actually winning the championship that are not in the official history. Then place the link to the article that says for World Champions in TNA see List of World Heavyweight Champions in TNA. The NWA Champions stay out, Cage's reign is removed, and NWA Champions are stated in a new article. It is a compromise that involves everything talked about. The official history starting with Angle and going up to Sting's second reign is in this article. Angle's and Cage's first unofficial reigns are removed. We avoid TNA's revisionism in this article and everyone gets offline happy. Lets end this discussion now because it has been going on for more than a year and a half. Give me a few weeks to make the list.--WillC 23:47, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

To the guy who said TNA made a mistake, they didn't make a mistake in listing Cage as TNA champion last year when they did, BECAUSE THEY EVEN NOTED THE SEVERING OF THE BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NWA. I'm not delusional and neither is anyone who had the discussion. You ignore history just like TNA ignores facts. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 05:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with everything you have said here, WillC. Canamerican (talk) 09:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

For once I agree with WillC too!!! I'm looking forward to the changes! MC511 (talk) 09:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The unofficial champions table will be removed after the List of World Heavyweight Champions in TNA is created a finished. It stays in until then.--WillC 16:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Any idea how long that will be ? 41.245.134.50 (talk) 17:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Well considering I'm very busy in real life and on here, I probably will not find time to work on it till next week. I'll start on it later today, but it will not be finished until late next week probably.--WillC 18:22, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I have been checking the article history, and it appears that someone already DID create that, yet you rather quickly reverted it, with a curt reason given. So it appears that everyone has agreed to recognize Angle as the first TNA Champion, but make ote of all Champions in TNA since Shamrock, and yet, you rather steadfastly stick to the "Unofficial Reigns" beginning with Cage? That's not consensus, it's an abusive account. 41.245.161.62 (talk) 16:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Most of the time the article hsitory is one guy who adds in the NWA history from TNA's revisionism which is not allowed since it is cearly known that Ken Shamrock did not win the now existent TNA Championship. Also the 8 to 6 stuff ended before the vote was change to 8. It was 6 to 5 then in favor of keeping Cage and Angle's reigns. A new consensus was made above here that states a list of all world champions in TNA will be made and then afterwards Cage and Angle's unofficial reigns will be removed. Until then they stay in the article. NWA hidtory stays out of this article, the list goes by TNA's history, and the year long argument about all this ends.--WillC 21:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

It is also clearly known that Cage was never TNA World Heavyweight Champion, and that your adding in the Unofficial reigns is OR. What i meant is that whoever created the page beginning with Shamrock has ALREADY done what you have apparently been unable to do for weeks. So why not just leave his one in, if that is pretty much the same thing? By the way, i disagree with beginning with either Shamrock OR Cage, and feel that the TNA World Title History "List of Champions" box should begin with Slammiversary 2007, but if someone has already done what you are claiming that you are GOING to do, why not just leave his/hers as is? 41.245.161.62 (talk) 14:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Anyone watch Impact today? They said Kurt Angle etched his name in history when he became the first ever TNA World Heavyweight Champion at TNA Slammiversary 2007. Not Christian Cage. Canamerican (talk) 04:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion is over. Cage and Angle's first unofficial reigns gets removed after I finish making the new list.--WillC 04:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually this is the discussion page for the article. And who exactly made you the be-all and end-all. It has been agreed to remove Cage and Angle's "Unofficial reigns" (with no valid source, apart from someone's self-contradictory OR explanation), and yet when people DO remove them, you revert it right back. This is bordering on vandalism now. If someone else were to make the "List of..." page, would you delete it, because you yourself never made it? As stated above, what that other person keeps doing with the page (starting with Shamrock) may be inaccurate, but is that not what you yourself have claimed to be "working on"? 41.245.161.62 (talk) 11:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand. A consensus was made above which means the discussion is over. This discussion has been going on since May of 2007 and I want it to end. Also as I've stated they do get removed, but after the list is made. I've already begun the list. The only reason I'm doing it is because they must meet certain standards of wikipedia and as far as I see I'm the only experienced editor who can do it as of right now. Also the reigns only fall under original research if they aren't common sense. Cage was the World Champion in May and Angle won the championship. TNA later claimed the match was for the TNA Championship. That is common sense that Cage is an unofficial champion. This list is a compromise to deal with TNA's revisionism history. Even if it wasn't revisionism a list would still have to be made since the title history would be too big for the article. People believe that the NWA Champions should be in the article and some believe they shouldn't. This article is a compromise to start with Shamrock and end with Sting. It will state that TNA recognizes all who won the NWA Championship as unofficial TNA Champions while under the TNA banner. Then this article will go by the official history and Cage's and Angle's reigns will be removed and will only be noted in the articles creation and not have a table.--WillC 21:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly Will, I can accept those terms. I can't wait to see the finished article. How much longer? Canamerican (talk) 02:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe a week or so. I have other stuff to get done. I hope that isn't a problem. Not to seem like an ass but I have more important things to do than this list which really isn't a main priority at the moment. The article is fine the way it is right now.--WillC 03:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The criteria for inclusion in wikipedia is verification with reliable source, not "common sense". At this point after nearly two years not one person has been able to give a valid source stating that Cage was TNA World Champion as of May 13 2007. The simple reason for that is that he wasn't. Yes, TNA claim cage was TNA Champion now, but they also claim Shamrock was TNA Champion in June 2002! You can only add information that has a linked, valid, reliable source, not because you claim it to be "common sense"(which it isn't even!) 41.245.168.43 (talk) 11:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Did I ever say I did not have a source? No, I have a source from a marginally reliable website that states Cage is a TNA Champion. Here it is: here. Plus, when did they say in 2002 that Shamrock was a TNA Champion? They always referred to him as NWA Champion and the weekly ppvs have not been released by TNA. Plus it is common sense that when someone loses a belt to someone else, the new person is the new champion.--WillC 14:37, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, for the ones that remove the table have you all ever noticed the references provided with it?--WillC 14:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

There are also numerous equally reliable(perhaps more so) websites that would begin with either Kurt Angle, or Ken Shamrock. You are being very selective, only linking to whatever sites begin with Cage. And chances are, that that sire got its "correct" information from the present state ok the wikipedia article! 41.245.163.89 (talk) 14:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Listen dude, why are you still discussing this? It was agreed that the table with Cage's and Angle's unofficial reigns will be removed and only noted in the prose after a new list is made to compromise with TNA's revisonism. There is no problem anymore, now let the agument end already. I'm sick of it, I've been apart of it for 8 months and I want it to die. The end result will have this article with the correct history, the unofficial history table will be non-existant, a new list to compromise with TNA's history will be made and a link to be placed in the article. Now I please ask to let this die.--WillC 23:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey duder, Will actually said on the TNA Roster page discussion that PWInsider is not a reliable source is saying that Suicide is played by Frankie Kazarian. That one boggles my mind, I'm sorry Will. Canamerican (talk) 03:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay. you make no sense.--WillC 04:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Well apparently someone DID make a new list to compromise with TNA's revisionism, but you keep reverting it. Furthermore, nobody agreed on anything about Cage's "unofficial reign" being mentioned in the prose. You seem to like to slip stuff in, and then cry "consensus" when someone removes it and/or asks for a reliable source. PWInsider is no more a reliable source than the thousands of websites that would not begin with Cage's "unofficial reign", Cage has called himself the "2-time" World Champion. You are very selective on what you consider reliable or valid, basically if it goes along with your views it is "Reliable". As for the table you are "working on", can we expect to see it up before New Year? 41.245.163.89 (talk) 08:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, you know I guess you don't mean to but you seem to be a smart ass. By mentioning in the prose it means the events that made the title. Think! What happened before, after, and during Sacrifice. Plus PWInsider was disproven to be a dirtsheet website, which in no way is reliable. The site I gave was a site that had not yet been cleared as reliable. Plus the remark on Cage being a two time champion. It is called a continuous reign. He continued the reign he had with the NWA Title. Plus I'm a busy man, if you can't wait then that is your problem. Make the list if you want to take the load of the article being fully sourced like the List of World Heavyweight Champions (WWE) article is. Complying with all of guidelines of wikipedia and having to deal with people bitching about it not being finished and changing things you feel is right. If it is not fully sourced than it can get deleted by an administrator for being unsourced and original research. The list you talk about was inaccurate, not reliably sourced at all, and did not have the new table that has recently been implemented by WP:PW. Plus the list must go in a different article and be of certain standards. Do you want to take that responsibility, if not then please allow this discussion to end so I can get other stuff finished on here and in real-life so I may finish the list and have it set for FLC. There is the decision you have to make, allow the experienced editor who has been apart of this conversation for nearly a year and knows the guidelines and how to work tables or do you want to do it. Before I forget, the article must comply with WP:PLOT, WP:IN-U, WP:Reliable Source, and WP:Verifiable. As well as the the standards set by WP:PW.--WillC 09:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

User 41.245.163.89 consider yourself OWNED JakeDHS07 09:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

How?--WillC 09:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

He gives u complaints about your hard work on a article he has no intention of working on himself. Therefore if he doesnt plan on contributing positively there is no purpose in ridiculing u for "taking too long" JakeDHS07 09:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I have no comment on that. If people want to bitch on me go right ahead. It does not bother me. I'm just trying to discuss and fix things. If it takes me too long than so be it, wikipedia comes fourteenth, after multiple other things.--WillC 09:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

U dont have to justify a time frame for anything. Wikipedia is a hobby for many including my self. JakeDHS07 09:47, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, just trying to fix the TNA shit. No one pays attention to it besides a few.--WillC 09:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone "got owned" or any other such immature silliness. Basically, the response of "wikipedia needs links for pretty much anything" suffices. There's no need to behave like a 3-year-old. But didn't the "starting from Shamrock" guy's table have sources too? 41.245.131.192 (talk) 10:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not behaving like a 3 year old, I don't know where you got that from. It had sources, unreliable sources. Plus the NWA History which has nothing to do with reigns after that belt and sources from other unreliable sources. Also TNA has removed their history of the belt from their site for some reason. A source is needed for every reign and a history ref can only be used a certain amount of times. Anyway I've already begun on the article, it should be done soon.WillC 10:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The "behaving like a 3 year old" was not directed at you in any way shape or form. It was at the person who made the "consider yourself OWNED" comment, and then all the misspellings. However, an issue that clearly many people DO have with you is the whole reliable/unreliable sources issue. Some of the links on this page have been laughingly stupid, including the one which listed Sting as the first ever TNA World Champion(removed after someone pointed it out, but had been regarded as "reliable" for several months prior to that). One need only scan over the various links mentioned on this very discussion page to see how subjective the whole issue is. Lastly, I thought you yourself had mentioned that the whole "beginning with Cage" idea would be dropped after the table had been completed, yet you have now mentioned it will be alluded to in the text? 41.245.131.192 (talk) 13:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

You can't talk about the reason the belt was made without telling about Cage, Sting, and Angle over the weekend from May 11 to May 14. Everything that had to do with the belt during those days will be told. It involves creation. It is not going to say Cage was the first unofficial champion. It is going to say that Cage defended an unknown world hevayweight championship at Sacrifice, or something along those lines. I'm also thinking about just placing the official history in a list anyway so this title will quit being edited so much.WillC 18:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually you can. One need only say that TNA, after having used the NWA Championship for 5 years, created their own belt in May 2007, and the first TNA Champion was crowned at Slammiversary. Also, as has been stated countless times, Cage came out with the Domed Globe belt and was called "Current Reigning NWA World Champion" (or something similar at least) by Jeremy Borash. I guess this is the cue for that other guy to go "Borash fucked up!", but really the only valid point is that when Angle won at Slammiversary 2007 he was announced as the first TNA Champion. I've got a feeling of deja vu. 41.245.189.17 (talk) 12:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Problem with that theory, it is inaccurate. Articles must explain alll notable information and shold not try to eliminate stuff because they want to. It doesn't explain why TNA made a new belt when they had the ability to use the NWA World and Tag until 2014, if I'm correct. You've eliminated notable information because you don't want to talk about events that actually happened. That is also against wikipedia guidelines.WillC 22:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

They didn't have the belts until 2014 because the business relationship between the NWA and TNA was severed mutually. Canamerican (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I know that, that is what I was saying. That needs to be stated. That is what I'm trying to explain to this guy.WillC 23:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

A "belt" and a "title" are two different things. It is only WWE-speak that confuses them. Right now, John Cena is the World Champion on RAW. The belt is the big gold thing he keeps his pants up with. But the title is what he is recognized as, the name. To make it clearer, when Samoa Joe was TNA World Champion, Booker T took the belt, and even wore it for a while. But although Booker had the belt, Joe still had the title "TNA World Heavyweight Champion". Or back in 1991 when Ric Flair showed up in the WWF with the Big Gold Belt. Sure, he had the belt, but he didn't have any officially recognized title. I could walk around with a belt which states "World Champion" on it, but that wouldn't make me anything other than a moron. 41.245.189.17 (talk) 05:51, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I don't see your point. It still needs to be stated why TNA made the belts and in a non-half ass way.--WillC 09:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a violation of WP:CIVIL 41.245.189.17 (talk) 15:50, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

No it is not, I did not insult you in anyway. I stated that it should explain the entire story and not try to jump around like your idea in my opinion.--WillC 21:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

"in a non-half ass way". Anyways, as stated billions of times, you have your references for the whole Cage thing, but other people have references for beginning with Shamrock, or with Angle, or even one guy begins with Sting! What makes your references reliable or correct, and others not valid? 41.245.189.17 (talk) 10:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it could start with Sting. I only see how it can start with Angle. It doesn't start with Shamrock, that was obviously the NWA Title, I mean we weren't blind now were we? That was the NWA Title in TNA, like the NWA Title was in WCW from 1988 to 1991. In 1991, the NWA Title was out of WCW and the WCW Title started with Ric Flair recognized as the first champion on January 11, 1991, coincided with his NWA Title win. WCW recognized it. TNA did not recognize Christian Cage though, therefore, we CANNOT. Kurt Angle is the first TNA Champion on June 17, 2007 at Slammiversary. It's very simple guys, not ROCKET SCIENCE!!!! Canamerican (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

As I'm trying to state. I'm not making Cage a champion. I'm telling about the "events" that lead to making the title. It is common sense that Angle was the first official TNA World Heavyweght Champion and TNA says he is about a billion times whan referring to him.--WillC 21:30, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

So when is the new list of champions coming? Canamerican (talk) 03:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually Canamerican, TNA DID recognize Cage at one time as TNA World Champion. Also, revisionism is something that wikipedia is against. TNA can't flat out change their minds and we have to bow to their every word. Fact of the matter is Cage didn't defend any recognized title at Sacrifice last year. End of story. People who won't admit this fact are the same people who think the WWE has the right to rewrite the countless things that they have recanted in their title histories and even in the history of their company. It's a joke. TonyFreakinAlmeida (talk) 15:14, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Possibly next week. I begun on it a few days ago but have been busy with other stuff. Trying to short out all the changes the project have implimented with List formats.--WillC 05:20, 21 December 2008 (UTC)