Talk:Pederasty/Archive 12

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PoMo > CSA criticism

We should be looking to remove the assertion that the CSA angle is supported by PoMo theories of power. Such theories (Foucault included) tend to subvert top-down approaches such as CSA. forestPIG^(grunt) 15:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Pederasty Among Primitives

For the references section. The correct link should be:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2086628 forestPIG^(grunt) 15:19, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Etymology section

The "Etymology" section had a number of serious problems that I have corrected.

First, there was a quote attributed to the Concise OED that, as near as I can tell, was at best in error or at worst fabricated. I corrected the definition.

Second, the section was presented backwards, first presenting definitions from specialist sources and only then presenting the general definitions later. I reversed the order.

Thirdly, the text surrounding all of these definitions was not even remotely written from a neutral point of view; it seemed to promote some of the fringe definitions and denigrate the dictionary definitions. I tried to make the text more neutral.

Lastly, one of the sources, William Percy's Encyclopedia of Homosexuality, is generally speaking not an acceptable academic source, being tainted by its association with a fraud scandal. There is a second edition of the encyclopedia that does not suffer from this taint, and it's likely that it has a similar definition. I did not touch this for now, but we should work to replace the fraud-tainted source with a reference to a source with an unstained reputation. Nandesuka (talk) 12:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Your aggressive logos here notwithstanding, the version as amended now approaches a neutral tone and is provisionally acceptable. The OED quote was simply what was there when last I checked. Haiduc (talk) 21:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Your edit to say the OED offers two definitions is incorrect; that is a single definition with two explanatory clauses. When the OED provides different definitions, it numbers / enumerates them separately, or else joins them with a connector, such as "also."

"Restrictive", regarding the concise OED, smacks of a value judgement, and is thus not NPOV. I suggest "terse" as a better term than either "restrictive" or "direct". Nandesuka (talk) 11:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

We can always say that the OED indicates two uses, one general and the other specific. I disagree with "terse," we can leave the text to speak for itself. Haiduc (talk) 11:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The OED is perfectly capable of enumerating uses when they intend to. Why in the world would we fabricate a second definition when they chose to provide only one? Regarding the other issue, "Terse" is a descriptive attribute of a sentence. "Restrictive" is a comment on the semantics and meaning of the definition. My $0.02. Anyone else want to chime in? Nandesuka (talk) 12:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The guide to OED entries makes it quite clear that describing these as two different definitions is a misrepresentation:

While the headword section of an entry defines the form of a headword, the sense section explains the headword's meaning. The sense section consists of one or more definitions, each with its paragraph of illustrative quotations, arranged chronologically. Some words, especially those that have existed for centuries, have acquired many meanings. Because of this, the sense section for some entries is quite extensive.

... Senses, or meanings, are ordered according to a structure resembling a family tree, so that the development of one meaning from another can be plotted. The individual meanings are numbered within this structure for ease of reference.

(emphasis added). Nandesuka (talk) 12:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the OED is perfectly capable of enumerating usages, and they do. Why, however, are you so quick to allege "fabricated quotes" without even bothering to check properly. It's a tactic that creates a wholly offensive atmosphere. The quotation you removed was "Unnatural connexion with a boy; sodomy"; since that's a rather negative characterisation, I can't imagine why Haiduc - the implicit subject of your accusation - would have "fabricated" it, can you? However, for your infornmation, here is the full 1989 version of the definition, which they have since revised. The revised version can also be accessed from the OED website. Paul B (talk) 12:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

What is "fabricated" in context, above, was Haiduc's suggestion that the OED definition is in fact "two definitions". On this talk page I indicated that I wasn't sure whether the concise OED definition was fabricated or not. I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell because the reference was incorrect, leading to a completely different definition. This sort of thing has happened innumerable times: I check a reference, and it says something completely different from what it is purported to say. I'm beyond trying to guess whether it's on purpose or not. Nandesuka (talk) 13:10, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your "why" question, I can't speculate, but it's worth noting that our text introducing that quote was "Some borrow the terminology of religious discourse...", which, frankly, seems like an egregious violation of both WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Nandesuka (talk) 13:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the two formulations offered by the OED are synonymous? Haiduc (talk) 23:47, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm stating that if the OED intended that entry to contain two definitions, it would contain two definitions instead of one. Your argument isn't with me. It's with Oxford. Good luck with that. Nandesuka (talk) 01:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Answer the question, instead of forcefully inserting your false statement into the article. Haiduc (talk) 01:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I refuse to tell you whether or not I am still beating my wife. If you have a problem with the OED's guide on how to read an entry, which I linked to earlier, take it up with them. There is simply no ambiguity here. If the OED wanted to provide two definitions, they would have provided two definitions. When the OED provides multiple definitions, they are numbered. Always. Without fail. If you want to argue that in this one case, for some reason, they went against their conventions, you are sailing against the wind Nandesuka (talk) 03:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Our edits overlapped. Nevertheless, now we see who it is who is really fabricating a fantasy and shoving it down the throats of our readers as well as other editors. So you will presume to bring in here this text: "Homosexual relations between a man and a boy; homosexual anal intercourse, usually with a boy or younger man as the passive partner" and then you will claim that there is only one definition in those two very different descriptions. But that is only because you are gaming the word "definition." Your argument is pure sophistry. It does not matter whether we say that there are two definitions, two formulations or two views represented here. The main point is that this dictionary holds that there are two separate things that can be represented by the word "pederasty," and one of the forms described is strictly copulative, while the other is far more general and does not restrict the relationship to any particular form of sexuality.

But you cannot admit that, because it blows your argument at Nicolo Giraud out of the water. So what we now discover is that, far from wanting to see accurate sourcing for the articles on pederasty, what you really want is to set an artificially high bar for pederasty so that as few articles as possible will discuss the topic. How do you have the nerve to waste our time with your political agenda, especially one which has degraded this encyclopedia and deprived readers of valuable information? Haiduc (talk) 04:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

So, instead of acknowledging that there are two formulations, with two very separate meanings, you refuse to discuss it and resort to edit warring, and to falsely claiming that you are making the edits on the basis of "consensus." But you are the ONLY one to hold that view - that consensus exists only in your head. So what we are seeing now is the face of Nandesukapedia, a project in which the paramount good is for Nandesuka to win an argument, at any cost to the integrity of the encyclopedia or to the form in which we resolve our differences. What a wonderful thing it must be to be an administrator with friends in all the right places, so you can say and do what you want and revert edits as many times as you want, with complete immunity. Considering the amount of time you spend here, you must be getting a lot out of it, it must be a profoundly satisfying and self-affirming experience for you. How nice. Haiduc (talk) 04:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

You are really behaving quite unacceptably, and are making this editing environment quite unpleasant and, frankly, hostile. Nandesuka (talk) 05:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Nandesuka, you are correct about the OED, but I can't say that you're addressing this situation cooperatively. You could explain why the two parts of the OED definition are synonymous, rather than being snarky.

Haiduc: this is one definition. When the OED says "homosexual relations between a man and a boy", it means sexual relations specifically; the clause "homosexual anal intercourse, usually with a boy or younger man as the passive partner" is meant to be synonymous with the first clause. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Akhilleus, I was trying to be straightforward: we know they are not two definitions because the OED's guide on "how to read an entry" explains what multiple definitions looks like, and this entry doesn't look like that. Nandesuka (talk) 05:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

OED definitions in full (1989 ed)

Unnatural connexion with a boy; sodomy.

1613 PURCHAS Pilgrimage (1614) 293 He telleth of their Pæderastie, that they buy Boyes at an hundred or two hundred duckats, and mew them vp for their filthie lust. 1752 HUME Ess. & Treat. (1777) II. 382 Solon's law forbid pæderasty to slaves. 1788 GIBBON Decl. & F. (1846) IV. 233 The same penalties were inflicted on the passive and active guilt of paederasty. 1869 RAWLINSON Anc. Hist. 529 Hence the laws against infanticide, against adultery, against pæderasty. So pæderast [Gr. ], pæderastist, a sodomite; pæderastic a. [Gr. ], pertaining to or practising sodomy; hence pæderastically adv.

1730-6 BAILEY (folio), *Pederast.., a Sodomite, a buggerer. 1738 WARBURTON Div. Legat. I. 171 As the detestable Pæderasts of after Ages scandalized the godlike Socrates. 1925 R. FRY Let. 7 Sept. (1972) II. 581 We had a long talk on the tyranny of the Paederasts and Sapphists. 1935 E. E. CUMMINGS Let. 2 Jan. (1969) 131 Scientists are of course pederasts, as we neither know nor care; & unnaturally enough this natural history museum is a temple or cathedral of the scientific spirit. 1963 A. HERON Towards Quaker View of Sex 69 Socially the paederast is the most isolated of homosexuals. 1969 Listener 14 Aug. 205/3 A divorced woman on the throne of the House of Windsor would be a pretty big feather in the cap of that bunch of rootless intellectuals, alien Jews and international pederasts who call themselves the Labour Party. 1971 P. QUENNELL Marcel Proust 11 The sense of his own separateness, as a paederast who loved women,..and a sick man..intensified his gift of observation.

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[1593 G. HARVEY New Letter Wks. (Grosart) I. 290 That penned..another [Apology] of Pederastice, a kinde of harlatry, not to be recited.]

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1704 SWIFT T. Tub Pref., There is first the *pæderastic school with French and Italian masters. 1864 tr. Gaspar's Hand-bk. Forensic Med. III. 333 note, Dohrn..has observed this appearance in his old pæderastic hospitallers.

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Ibid. 332 A boy alleged to have been abused *pæderastically.

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1684 T. GODDARD Plato's Demon 29 The little respect which he had for that Sex, and great love for the other, which made him so great a *Pæderastist