Wikipedia talk:Deletion reform/Proposals/Uncontested deletions

As the originator of this proposal (although it is far from original - Radiant! suggested something similar recently) can I ask that this be a discussion, not a poll at this stage. --Doc (?) 21:38, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

General Comments

Good idea. No code changes needed. Let's do it. JesseW, the juggling janitor 19:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. This also avoids the problem with proposals for early AFD closing - that some people may not show up until late, or some good argument may not be made until too late. ~~ N (t/c) 20:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a good way to make the process more efficient, while not causing any problems. Martin 21:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A relatively small number of AfD articles are ever truly contested. Most are either overwhelmingly slated for deletion or overwhelmingly slated to be kept. I think we need a process to filter both kinds out quickly - this helps for those that are obvious (but not speedy) deletes, I'd also like to see a proposal for accelerated retention of obvious (but not speedy) keeps. BDAbramson ^talk 21:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This does not solve quick 'keeps' - but most uncontested nominations are 'delete'. However, it may help the 'keep' cases, as if someone nominates for deletion under this system, if the tag is subsequently removed - and a good reason given on the talk page (i.e. 'yes he is notable, you've missed this ...' or verifying references are added) there is good chance that the nominator will not push the point and take the matter to afd/contested deletions. --Doc (?) 21:56, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, I hope it works out exactly that way. BDAbramson ^talk 22:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. I like it but - if there are articles on AfD that are overwhelmingly voted for one way or the other, it strikes me that it would be better for CSD to be expanded, instead of introducing another class of potentially deletable articles. By extension, we could have an unlimited number of "categories" for articles ranging from "speedy deleted within minutes of creation" to "kept after 7 months of arguing", each with varying rules and thresholds. Would you consider expanding on why the purpose of this proposal cannot be accomplished by a widening of CSD?--inks ^T 23:07, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with speedy deletion is that there is almost no double-checking. I have seen many articles nominated for AfD where the nominator seemed to believe that it was an obvious band vanity or dicdef or whatever, but to have someone jump up and point out how important the subject is (or better, improve the article to the point where it is a clear keep). The waiting period and central location for people to review the reasons and votes give an easy way to ensure that every article gets at least some second scrutiny before being deleted. — brighterorange (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- Double/triple/quadruple checking would be easy enough to implement - e.g. A Speedy article needs to have the signatures of 2/3/4/N number of admins who agree it is a speedy candidate before it can be deleted. Perhaps more importantly, the current proposal only deals with articles that are clearly deletes, and if they are that clear, we should make it easier to delete them by making use of the systems already in place, instead of creating new ones if at all possible. Also note that expanding CSD does not eliminate AfD - something Speedied in error can always be undeleted and put on AfD instead. I'm just against the extra layer of procedures, because I think we can accomplish these objectives without them.--inks^T 04:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - I actually considered 'scrutinised speedies' for a while, but I rejected it for three reasons. a) It is actually quite bureaucratic to implement when you think about it. b) It still gives too little scrutiny for possibly valid articles - three admins agree and it is gone - no chance for others to point out some value (they can go to AfU, but only if they know the article exists in the first place. c) Paradoxically, it is too much effort for bad articles (created in a click - but needing the form to be signed in triplicate to get rid of them). The proposal here has the merit of 'one tag and it's gone in a set number of days', yet still visible and several days for any user to halt the process - and by putting the article in a deletion category for those days drawing attention to it. --Doc (?) 08:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    - Hmm. I note the concern regarding deleted articles that shouldn't have been. But how extensive is the problem? Are there any studies showing proportion of speedy deletes subsequently restored? (excepting "Oops, I hit the wrong button" type mistakes). Similar to MGM's comment below, I'm also concerned that the proposal as it stands makes it too easy to push it to AfD, and then we're back where we started. Alternatively, just have people note on the articles talk page if they disagree with the speedy, and the admin can check there before deletion.--inks^T 21:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      - Most proposals to futher broaden speedy categories were roundly defeated - your idea may make sense, but it unfortunately won't get a consensus --Doc (?) 21:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        If it doesn't make consensus, it just means it didn't make enough sense :)I'd also like to say that we are both working towards the same goals, we just differ on the methods. I appreciate your responses to my comments.--inks ^T 21:37, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        
        This proposal would be very helpful for pages that don't meet the criteria for speedy deletion, but no reasonable person would want to keep (hopefully, this proposal will also take care of those articles people don't want kept, but are too lazy to vote on). Some admins fudge the CSD criteria on the very worst of these, but sometimes even those articles undeleted for not technically being speedies, and it's not good practice to bend the rules for half the articles nominated. It may not be exactly how I, or other users, want it, but quibbling over details causes a lot of good proposals on Wikipedia to fail. It can always be modified, or even abandoned, later. Still, one thing I would change is that anyone can remove the tag, except the main author. New users/anons frequently remove the AfD tag without comment or a lame excuse. Or, even the author can remove it but he has to give reasonable explanation or the tag is replaced/it goes to AfD. However, I'll support it unchanged. -- Kjkolb 10:19, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a good proposal to me :). One little change I would suggest is adding a "reason" field to the template.
If the articles tagged by this template were put into a category, using the date field to sort the category, anybody wanting to monitor the deletion process for one day could then just open the pages each in a new tab in firefox (one click each), and see the reasons for deletion immediately. Thue | talk 16:30, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This will also make speedy deletions easier for admins. Right now there are a good deal of dubious speedies tagged. An admin could just retag with this tag in those cases. Thue | talk 17:20, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree more....there are a lot of out-of-process speedy deletions and this would be a great alternative. Rx StrangeLove 20:39, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Changes

Excellent. I'd say we do this post haste, or at the very least give it a trial run for a couple of weeks; it would really help to alleviate AFD pressure (and associated wikistress).

Some ideas to consider...

An objection to this proposal has been that vandals can abuse it. While that is true, it's hardly a reason to oppose this, since vandals can abuse just about anything else (including the present deletion system) and we have pretty good systems to deal with vandals. Surely nobody would oppose the page moving feature just because it's abusable.
Another objection to this proposal has been that putting a deletion tag on an article is not very nice to the author of that article. Once more, while this is true, it's hardly a reason to oppose this, since the plain fact is that people write articles that do not belong in an encyclopedia. Unless we want to abolish deletion entirely, there will be some way of tagging articles, and this may be perceived as unfriendly. On that account, the present system is worse.
I'd prefer a syntax of {{subst:pd|reason}} and getting a bot to modify the template each day at midnight to get the correct date in there. Otherwise, the category system may be hampered by various ways of spelling the date (03-20, 20-03, 20/3, March 20, etc).
It would be best if the tag could not be added multiple times by the same user, but it could still be removed multiple times by the same user. It should be obvious that any revert warring regarding PD should immediately be cut short and superseded by AFD.
To counteract the fact that "obvious keeps" sometimes end up on AFD, it may be useful to propose that if you PD an article, you cannot AFD it, but instead must get someone else to do it. This effectively means that any motion to delete an article must be seconded before the community will discuss it. According to Wikipedia:AFD_100_days, 5.7% of AFDs are "unanimous keeps" and thus wouldn't have had someone to second the nomination.
The template should be worded so that it encourages people to edit - e.g. if an article is PD'ed because it lacks sources, people should, if they're editing it anyway to remove the tag, be encouraged (but not required) to add a source or two.

R adiant _>|< 08:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How long should the time be?

I think the time time should be just as long as the regular AFD lag. You don't want material lying around for longer than absolutely neccesary when it's going to end up being deleted without being contested. Also, I think it may be effective at first, but when creators and vandals catch on they'll find a way to flood AFD with the nominations again. - 131.211.50.137 10:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC) (MacGyverMagic who's too lazy to sign in)[reply]

Yeah, I agree. In fact, something like 14 days means that linkspammers and advertisers can get their pages on wikipedia for 19 days (by moving to AfD on the last day before deletion). That's a lot of advertising on the 47th post popular site in the world for very little work. — brighterorange (talk) 13:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Admins just delete spam without going thru any process or any delay, which is fine with me. In fact, some admins delete valid articles without going thru AfD proceedure, which pisses people off. 14 days should be the minimum for a valid (non-spam) article. (preceding unsigned comment by 71.131.26.212 (talk · contribs) )

Great, but now define spam? --Doc (?) 21:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I know of no CSD that allows for the deletion of spam (except if the article is only a link to an external site). I guess I am using spam broadly to mean the kind of vanity advertising that shows up on AfD all the time, but that can't be speedied. — brighterorange (talk) 18:24, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The time to wait should be chosen to convenience good faith editors, not to inconvenience bad faith editors, linkspammers and advertisers. The solution to the latter is to edit the article, because even if you think it should be deleted, you can edit out the garbage.

Addressing the convenience of good faith editors, there are many editors who are only able to edit weekly, so I think that should be the very minimum. Since the garbage will be edited out of these articles, I don't see any problem with two weeks, or even thirty days. Un focused 14:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What is this obsession with speed? This is one article, presumably about something obscure, amongst how many? Why is it essential for deletion to be fast? How is it's existence for even a year going to materially damage wiki? The idea is to make the process straightforward, not fast. A new method needs to reduce the load on central checking. Any automatic deletion method leaves out the chance for other editors to check the view of just one. This has to be compensated by a reasonable notice period for someone to stumble across the article and object. A minimum period would be 1 month's wait. Three would be better. Sandpiper 07:52, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One downside

I nominate a lot of stuff for AfD, so I'd like to see a way for that to become easier (even after memorizing the templates, it's still a lot of edits..). These category-based solutions are a nice way of getting the computers to do some of the mechanical work. One thing that bums me about this proposal, though, is that there is no way to record one's "vote to delete" when browsing the proposed deletion category. This means that if the discussion is moved to AfD, there's no record of that scrutiny. It's not a deal-breaker, but it does mean that the work for contested deletions becomes a bit more redundant. — brighterorange (talk) 13:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Opposed to this scheme

This will make it much harder to follow what is going on. It assumes that every article is seen by someone who knows about this process in any given period of a few days, which may often not be the case. Most new articles are probably seen by very few people so this system will expose them to bad faith nominations which may not be spotted. It will also take much more effort to review the category for inappropriate deletionist activity than to scan the articles for deletion page, as nothing but the titles will be visible at first glance. I don't accept that afd is overloaded in any case. There is still an adequate level of voting on the nominees, unlike on Categories for deletion, which is rather neglected. CalJW 19:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I'll just note my agreement with Cal. AFD is certainly enormous, but doesn't seem overloaded; we have no urgent need for a new deletion process and changes should be made within the framework of the two existing deletion processes. For instance, this proposal includes a principle of silent consensus; if we want to endorse that principle, then to start let's tell the AFD closers to stop relisting articles with only a couple votes. Christopher Parham (talk) 01:41, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We'll need to agree to disagree on the first point, but your observation about AfD closers is correct. I've relisted articles in the past, but from now on in the absense of any 'keep' vote I will delete. --Doc (?) 22:45, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we might eventually see on VFU whether doing that is actually supported by the community, but I think changes like that are a much more moderate way to combat the supposed problems with the current system. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The suggestion that items with few votes should be relisted even if they are all in agreement is relatively new and far from consensual - as for instance indicated on a recent WP:RFA vote. If you see such votes, feel free to close them immediately after the relisting.
Anyway. I understand Cal's concern, and it may be useful to have a centralized logging page that people can look at. In other words, we create a system that is entirely similar to AFD, except that no remarks, debate or discussion is allowed on the deletion page at all, and any such will be summarily moved to the relevant article's talk page. This will draw the focus back to improving said article, rather than arguing about it on a deletion discussion. The only response that may be made to a deletion nomination is a single objection (preferably with a short explanation), and one such objection in effect vetoes the nom. Hm, I like it already. Less debate, more productivity. R adiant _>|< 23:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This all seems unnecessarily complicated, and categories have downsides. Why not simply create an Uncontentious Deletions page, for cases that seem very clearcut but don't meet speedy criteria. Divide the page into sections and link to a generic explanation and precedent at the top of each (eg vanity, advertising, lists are obvious sections). Allow anyone with > 100 edits to move a nomination to AfD (which just means cutting and pasting the transclusion ref). Comments from anyone can be taken into account, but only editors of some standing can ask wider community to debate - essentially to exclude newbie creators of clearly delete-worthy pages from moving a nom to AfD. If it stays for five days, delete it. This scheme would be easy to set up and fit easily into the current system - and be easily abandonable if it didn't work out. Rd232 ^talk 16:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this is a nice, clean way of streamlining a lot of deletions. It could be structured like AFD only it'd look much simpler. List a page and if it's still there in 5 days delete it. If an (>100edits) editor feels it needs more attention they can move it to AFD. Otherwise, no debate or comments....certainly no voting. It'll make a noticable impact on AFD...I really like this. Rx StrangeLove 21:42, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I could go for this as a compromise. However, it isn't actualy clear that it is less complicated. Under my scheme, an obviously junk article gets tagged and if no-one objects, in x days it is deleted. Simple for most articles (other than disputed ones). With Rd232's scheme, you'd still need to tag it, and then list it on a special uncontested deletions page (not a lot less work than Afd)! --Doc (?) 21:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, I mis-read something above and in my haste to get on board I was too hasty. I could go either way I guess but using categories makes more sense, the uncontested deletions page would maintain itself and you do have to touch each article either way anyway. How do you suggest we go forward with this? Rx StrangeLove 22:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The big advantage of a page is that it allows for comments and questions and requests for clarification and clarification - i.e. discussion. This is difficult in the category approach. In my initial thought I'd suggested using the same subpage approach as AfD - in which case yes, there's no less work for the nominator (but less for the community, as they don't need to support obviously-going-to-succeed nominations). A variation to save work for nominators would be to merely list the page and reason, and omit the subpage step unless either (a) the nomination is moved to AfD (moving any discussion to the subpage) or (b) the result is Delete, and there is discussion worth saving for future reference. (If Keep, just move any discussion worth saving to the article talk page.) Rd232 ^talk 15:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think this proposal works best when there is no discussion. It's meant for uncontested deletions, if there's something to talk it should happen on it's talk page or at AFD. If there's discussion allowed then it's just another layer to AFD and not useful. I think the real value here is funneling off deletions from AFD that are easy and obvious that don't need any discussion. I understand what you are saying for sure but I think the deletion canidates you are talking about would end up at AFD anyway. My understanding is that this is meant to work at the low levels of non-speedy terrain. Rx StrangeLove 20:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps there's room for both - the category approach for pretty clearcut cases, and my approach for grey areas where nominators aren't sure where it fits / whether it will be contentious and require discussion. Rd232 ^talk 22:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, any system should have checks and balances so that articles on potentially notable topics are'nt deleted arbitrarily. There must be some place for editors to check the articles that have been currently tagged for deletion if this system were to be adopted. Capitalistroadster 01:02, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed, articles wouldn't be deleted until the 5 day period is up. Interested editors can look through the category and review them. Is that what you were concerned about? I think you're totally right about checks and balances, on slightly unrelated note I'd like to see a tag and bag system for speedies for that very reason. Rx StrangeLove 04:39, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Some safeguards could be: 1)List longer than 5 says - say 7-14, if swifter deletion is thought essential nominators can sull use afd. 2)Automatic right of retrospective contesting. Since it is deleted as 'uncontested deletion' any editor may retrospectively contest it and ask for it to be recreated and listed on afd. 3) (?possibly?) An explicate ban on 'notability' as a deletion criteria for this scheme - notability deletions must always go to afd (as the principle is always contested). --Doc (?) 15:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Strongly

This proposal makes deletion the DEFAULT status. Thi is enitrely the wrong, non-inclusionist direction to be goin in. Thdre should be STRONG reasons to delete, rather than it being presme to be the natural, normal best thing to do, all things being equal. Trust in the editors and allow complete reversion. Eliminate Dletions special status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boldymumbles (talk • contribs) 28 October 2005 (UTC)

This isn't, IMO, about being inclusionist or otherwise; it isn't "slap a delete tag on any page for any reason and if it isn't challenged it goes". The criteria and process should apply to a well-defined class of pages which won't survive AfD but can't be deleted under CSD; it's sort of a concretisation of policy, saving people's energy for the grey areas where it isn't clear what would happen on AfD. I see from your contributions you have (recently anyway) only participated in 1 AfD, in which case, you may not appreciate why this is needed. Rd232 ^talk 16:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Purpose of Scheme

Someone above made a comment that the current deletion system is working, so why change? The current system arguably does work, but the writing is plainly on the wall as to how it can continue. The bigger wiki gets, then obviously the more deletion candidates there will be, and I saw some statistics suggesting this growth will be exponential. There is no way any centralised system can cope with this long-term.

I am against automatic unverified deletion, especially for an encyclopedia which is very big, especially the bigger it gets. Any new system has to to allow de-centralised, but still verified, deletion... and I can only see this being done on the actual article page. But more, I see no way this can be done in a hurry. The only way to allow debate on an obscure article is to allow enough time for a reasonable number of editors to have reason to read the page. The current short centralised debates are very much too short for this to happen. Perhaps some of you who have become accustomed to just a one week debate might consider the merits of a very much longer but more automatic system. 1-3 months seems reasonable.

This may seem the same question as another above, simply about the time limit. I created a separate section because I feel I am trying to make a subtly different point. That a fundamentally different outlook on the reasons for deletion, verification and speed is needed.

Oh, and given sufficient delay I am in favour, because I think that eventually there will be no alternative to this kind of schemeSandpiper 08:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]