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February 12

A tsunami off Java island in 2007 killed nearly 5,000.

The subject is a quote from the last sentence in an AP release about today's earthquake. Google News shows 406 online articles seem to have duplicated this "fact".

Can anyone find a reference to this (in Wikipedia or elsewhere)?

The list of Historic tsunamis shows two 2007 tsunamis and the first "displaced" 5000 people, but only killed 52. My guess is this is where the discrepancy has come from.

Mark Hurd (talk) 01:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Fanning yourself is making you hotter?

I recall in elementary school my teachers told me that wielding a hand-made paper-fan and utilizing it to cool oneself is less effective than just sitting still and let oneself cool by itself. They claim that the reciprocating motion of the arms generate more heat than the generated breeze's ability to cool the person off. Is this true? Acceptable (talk) 06:00, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

No. StuRat (talk) 06:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I suspect this is true in some very specific circumstances. For example, if the air temperature is equal to body temperature with very high humidity, the net cooling effect would be (approximately) zero, meaning *any* expenditure of energy would result in negative cooling. But, for most (all?) realistic conditions StuRat's concise answer would be correct—after all, there must be a reason why hand fans have been around for ages. – 74  06:42, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, if the air temperature is higher than body temperature then you are effectively increasing the heat burden; a larger amount of high-temperature air is moving over the skin and increasing its temperature - the same reason a fan oven cooks things quicker, I suppose! This can be partially offset by sweat evaporation, but fanning yourself in high-temperature, high-humidity conditions will make things worse. ~ mazca ^t|c 08:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a particular hobby-horse of mine. I'll semi-agree with the above comments except that they exclude the extra heat generated in the arm muscles that wave the fan - nothing comes for free. The heat (ATP->ADP transformation through myosin-actin interaction) of hand-waving is generated and distributed through the body. So where is the balance point? It's somewhere less than 98.6F/100%, right? Franamax (talk) 10:00, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but I'd expect this effect to be quite minimal, perhaps a degree or two. The reasons:

1) Hand fans are designed to require a minimal effort to move, just a flick of the wrist, not moving the entire arm.

2) This will slightly raise the temp in the wrist, but a hot wrist has ample time to cool off in the eddies of air currents around the fan before the heat is transferred all the way up the arm to the body.

3) As in the reverse case during winter, it's the core body temp which is important, as legs and arms can overheat quite a bit before they fail to function, while even a slight overheating of the brain can be disastrous. So, for this reason and reason 2, just saying that the amount of heat added to the wrist is more than that lost from the head, even when true, isn't very relevant. StuRat (talk) 14:28, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

A hobby horse of mine is wondering how people manage to keep their temperature down when the temperature is well over blood heat and water is streaming down the walls in rivulets with the humidity? It is extremely unpleasant and I wouldn't have the energy to wave a fan and I don't feel it would help. Dmcq (talk) 12:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

For the most part, they don't. That's the sort of situation that leads to death from heat stroke. --Carnildo (talk) 02:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it humidity, rather than air temperature, that matters? A fan works via evaporative cooling, the fact that it's moving cooler air near you is a pretty minor factor. The air temperature can be pretty much as high as you like (within reason) as long as the humidity is low, and the fan will still work. --Tango (talk) 14:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

A fan works primarily via evaporative cooling, but with large enough temperature differences the flow of air can indeed become a significant factor; consider wind chill. – 74  16:10, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

According to [1] anything much above body temperature is a bit iffy although obviously it depends on humidity Nil Einne (talk) 16:16, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that reference. Yes I've not found a fan to be helpful. And yes lots of people have to be shipped back quickly because they start to develop heat exhaustion. At 105°F and the air supersaturated you just lie oozing sweat onto sweat soaked sheets, stop thinking about anything much and wait for it to rain. Dmcq (talk) 18:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

One good thing that I found about living in Malaysia (or more specifically Kuala Lumpur) I guess. Yet it's hot and humid pretty much all of the time, but it's very rare that it get's so hot a fan (or wind) doesn't help Nil Einne (talk) 15:52, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

There is also the possibility that the teachers knew all of that, but found the use of hand fans distracting from their lessons to themselves and to other students, and so needed a reason to tell you to stop. 10 year olds are suprisingly resistant to the "Because I said so" explanation, so this little bit of bullshit may be just what they need to actually stop. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

A very compelling rationale. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I remember this being the first time I realized that teachers weren't infallible. If it actually made me hotter, then why did I feel so much better when I did it? Wouldn't I have to eventually reach a point where I was less comfortable than when I started doing it? I never took a teacher's word for anything from 2nd grade on. (Which in the long run was a good thing)-- Mad031683 (talk) 18:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

A wise man once told me (seriously, he was wise, and he really told me this) "Never let your schooling get in the way of your education." --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

“Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school.” - Albert Einstein. manya (talk) 04:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

riddle help

riddle 'it's content will bring it to its end' what is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.220.225.252 (talk) 12:24, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

ejaculation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.240.66 (talk) 12:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

You have misspelled "its", and "content" is unusual in that position (I'd expect "contents"), so I'm inclined to doubt that you are giving us the riddle exactly as it appeared wherever you got it. It would be a waste of my time to try to solve it as it stands, because riddles often depend on wordplay. Please double-check your riddle and provide us with the exact form, and I'll be more than happy to try to solve it. --Milkbreath (talk) 13:16, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Is this the riddle about "the world silence" or is that another one? — CHANDLER^#10 — 13:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the OP typed the riddle 100% correctly. The answer is "an apostrophy". That way, there is no grammar/punctuation error in the question. Let's put some emphasis in there:

"it's" content will bring "it" to "its" end.

The apostrophy is the 'content' of "it's" and adding an apostrophy will bring "it" to "its'" end. This also explains why the riddle doesn't start with a capital letter. SteveBaker (talk) 06:34, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

That's apostrophe. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 06:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh - so I score no wikipoints at all for that one? Darn - harsh audience tonight! SteveBaker (talk) 20:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Un-gluing old photographs

I was recently given some old family photgraphs of my grandparents and great-grandparents. Unfortunately, they arrived in one of those horrible "multi-aperture" frames with the photos all glued to a single piece of backing paper. I would really like to separate the ancient photos from modern backing paper which is quite stiff and almost like thin card. I've tried a razor blade and removed a couple of the newer photos, but the really old photos seem pretty well stuck. I believe the glue used is a modern paper glue - possibly something like Pritt Stick. What would be the best way to remove the backing paper without damaging the photos? Astronaut (talk) 14:13, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

You could try something like nail polish remover (or maybe white spirit) - get a cotton bud, lift up one corner of the photo (somehow) and then slowly wipe away at the glue. Be careful not to get any on the front of the photo (to be honest, I don't know what would happen, but it could well be bad!). It's possible it would damage the photos even from the back (although I think it's unlikely) so you should probably test it on a photo you don't care too much about first. --Tango (talk) 14:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Looking around the web, there seem to be three methods:

• Chemical - products such as "un-do" (allegedly available in the US) or other solvents.
• Physical - saw away at them
• Heat - get your hairdryer out & see if a bit of heat melts the glue somewhat (cf. [2])

Other advice is to take good quality digital snaps of the paper photos before you start, as some sort of backup against an accident. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

In response to the above -- that is excellent advice. Maybe a good scanner would be the best way to get those digital copies as backup, just in case the un-gluing doesn't work out without any mishaps. Bus stop (talk) 15:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I recently bought some stuff from a hardware shop called 'Sticky Stuff Remover' which very effectively cleaned off the sticky residue from those adhesive stationery labels. I guess if you removed as much backing card as possible and then let this stuff soak in from the back it may loosen the glue, timing might be critical. Richard Avery (talk) 15:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Depending on what you want to do with the pictures afterwards, you might be able to just trim the backing down to the photograph size and leave it attached. If the pictures will be individually framed, for instance, a little additional backing should cause no problems. – 74  15:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

If you don't have a scanner yourself you can go to an office store like Staples, Office Depot, Kinko's and have them put a high resolution scan on an SD card or some such. I would not go with chemicals on old pictures. (OR the fumes tend to cause damage.) Try feeding non-waxed dental floss or thread between the picture and the backing, keep it as close to the backing paper as possible and use sawing movements to detach the photo. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 16:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Scanning (at high resolution, with a good-quality scanner) is an excellent first step, regardlesss of the approach that you choose to take here. Specialty photo shops may have better equipment or more experienced staff than your local Staples or Kinko's, though you'll often pay more for that expertise.

A photography shop will usually also be will to retouch spots and scratches, and correct fading or color balance issues that tend to affect old prints. Instead of trying to disassemble the old prints, it may be easier to simply scan and reprint new ones. Finally, a specialty shop may be able to put you in touch with a restorer who can advise or assist you in ungluing your prints — but those services are usually costly. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't really answer the question, but I did look into the matter a couple of years ago when I wanted to restore a baby picture of my wife's. The stuff on the front of the photograph is gelatine. Water in any amount will dissolve it, so you can't use water at all. What I did was decide not to mess with it, because I'd almost certainly make it worse. I took a high-res scan and photoshopped it. It came out great. If you are determined to get the backing off, I recommend doing it physically, with a goose-neck magnifier and a set of hobby knives and tweezers, going verrrrry slow and picking away a molecule at a time. I mean slow—expect it to take a couple of weeks or even months of evenings. --Milkbreath (talk) 21:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Skirt type

Hi. Can anyone tell me what type of skirt is shown in the image uploaded here? I guess it's just a flap on the front and back connected to some sort of undergarment/swimwear underneath. Or perhaps the entire thing is attached to her top. If I could figure out what it's called, it would be easier for me to find one while shopping. Thanks. 76.8.208.7 (talk) 17:06, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It looks like a dress, rather than a skirt, to me. I don't know what it's called, if anything. --Tango (talk) 17:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a swimsuit. That style isn't necessarily common, but I have seen swimming costumes like it. Maedin\^talk 17:28, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe some sort of Skort? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Check Sarong#Western_World, I think it can cover any non-specific, light piece of fabric worn over a bathing suit. Lanfear's Bane | t 20:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It appears to be a swimdress. More specifically, a halter-neck swimdress with side-split skirt. See these images for similar styles. Gwinva (talk) 01:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

While you're at it, check out the burkini and modest swimwear as well! BrainyBabe (talk) 15:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Audience participation question

I visited the Helsinki Burlesque Festival for the first time in my life a week ago, and they asked for a male volunteer. I desperately wanted not to be picked, but ended up picked anyway. I was asked to sit down on a chair and watch the female performer, which I did. Afterwards, I heard from my friends who were there that I had acted way too stiff, almost as I if was scared of the performer. What was I supposed to do? I was only told to sit down and watch. I don't think I could have actually touched the performer or talked to her or anything. JIP | Talk 20:53, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Did you smile ? They might also laugh if you hammed it up a bit, like covering your eyes during the naughty bits, then taking a little peek between your fingers. Pretending to fall out of the chair when something shocking happens is also good. StuRat (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

You were there to enjoy yourself. You had no obligation to do anything you weren't comfortable with - if you want to sit stiffly, then sit stiffly. You could have turned down their request, simply shaking your head with probably work. If anyone tries to physically drag you onto a stage, just look them calmly in the eye with a straight face and quietly but firmly say "No". I doubt anyone would carry on dragging you after that. --Tango (talk) 21:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I was recently handling snakes and had a number of pictures taken with them. At the time I felt like I was enjoying it, but the pictures revealed a stoic and unchanging expression. I think it's just human nature. NByz (talk) 01:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Haha. Handling snakes. NByz (talk) 01:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

"All persons there seem to say, what a young English nobleman said to his governor, Am I as joyous as I should be?" M. Grosely, Tour to London (1772) --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the context of course, but that just sounds like some good-natured ribbing from your friends. I wouldn't worry about it; if the situation were to someday re-present itself you would naturally handle it more smoothly since you now know what to expect. – 74  07:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

If you can locate the performer's contact details, why not drop them an email - apologise for your stiffness (say you were nervous) and ask them what they would like you to have done. Then you'll know if the situation represents itself. Exxolon (talk) 15:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have the performer's contact details, but I do have the festival staff's contact details. However I don't think it's worth the bother to ask them to relay my question to the performer. JIP | Talk 20:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Hurricanes

Suppose there are more than 26 hurricanes/cyclones in one season. How is the 27th one named? JCI (talk) 21:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

According to this article:[3] The "National Hurricane Center will turn to the Greek alphabet and we'll have Hurricanes Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, etc." cheers, 10draftsdeep (talk) 22:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

According to hurricane naming, the greek alphabet would actually start after hurricane number 21, since Q, U, X, Y and Z arent used for regular names. Livewireo (talk) 22:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

And for a practical example, see the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season with named storms Arlene through Zeta. — Lomn 23:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It is also the only year that they have ever run out of letters for tropical cyclones in the Atlantic. Dragons flight (talk) 04:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

And they actually did get into Greek letters -- six of them, up to Zeta. Hurricane Beta became the first Greek-letter hurricane, and Hurricane Epsilon the last so far. --Anonymous, 07:00 UTC, February 14, 2009.

As a side note, if a Greek-letter storm is retired, the name is retired as Name-Year. So, had Beta been retired, it would have been listed as such under Beta-2005. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 07:10, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

So what would such a name be replaced with? Also, the Atlantic only has 21 names in each annual list, but many other basins have more names available. ~AH1^(TCU) 16:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The Greek letters themselves can't be replaced after a retirement, so the name is going to be used again. So, if, for example, Hurricane Alpha in 2009 were to be retired, it would go in the retirement books as "Retired: Hurricane Alpha, 2009". In 2010, however, if the Atlantic list were to run out again, the first storm would still be named Alpha. --Ericdn (talk) 18:13, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Subtitles

Why don't English subtitles in Japanese films have full stops? JCI (talk) 23:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

You mean at the end of a line of dialogue? Come to think of it, most subtitled films I've watched don't bother with full stops. I don't think they're really required – they're a punctuation mark, the function of which is to signal the end of a sentence in writing. But with a film, you're listening to the original spoken dialogue as well as reading the subtitles, so you don't need that signal. Plus, they might be distracting. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

What bugs me about most subtitles is that they do not replicate the script exactly. Understand there is sometimes a need to precis, but often one perfectly good word is substituted by another that has almost the same meaning.90.9.213.228 (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)DT

In cases like that I often suspect that they do replicate the script exactly, but that the movie or TV show deviated from it. There was a Star Trek: TNG episode where Beverly Crusher hummed a tune on screen, but the lyrics were listed in the subtitles. I would guess the script called for her to sing it, but they decided to have her just hum it instead. StuRat (talk) 16:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Richardrj. Good subtitles don't require full stops, as people don't generally talk in sentences. As for accuracy, in my experience most subtitles only replicate the script approximately - unless one assumes that most productions generally deviate wildly from their scripts. I suspect that the problem is that subtitling is an under-rated art, and generally one (possibly under-skilled, under-paid) person is carrying out the task, which is in effect a re-edit of the dialogue. Not only does the subtitler often have to decide between the literal translation of dialogue or the equivalent translation in the second language, but also they are tempted to shorten the dialogue either because: too many words are spoken to be shown/read before a cut-away; or simply to make their task easier.

Good subtitles require a person or persons with command of both languages to mother-tongue standard, and that doesn't often seem to be available. I have enough command of several languages to notice some discrepancies, and I can confirm that whenever I have asked, mother-tongue speakers have agreed that the subtitles are not very accurate. Perhaps there should be a Best Subtitling Academy Award.

Here in the UK, even the English TV subtitles for the hard of hearing can sometimes be below standard. The best thing that can be said about much foreign language subtitling is that it preserves the original feel of the movie much better than a new voice track of inappropriate voices and avoids the distraction of watching mouths make shapes completely different to the sounds that seem to be coming out of them. Centrepull (talk) 15:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

February 13

Please help me identify the series

About six months ago I was listening to NPR and they were speaking about a series that intrigued me from the description. I filed it away on the back of my brain and as is the quirks of the human mind, I don't think I've thought of it once since, until a few moments ago it just popped into my mind. I thought I'd go order it on Amazon or elsewhere but I don't remember the title nor even enough that a Ggoogle search would be fruitful. I believe it was Japanese, or possibly adapted from the Japanese, and it was about a boy who gets some kind of book that gives him the power to kill people by wishing it essentially. I think at first he is not aware that his wishes are coming true and then, once it dawns on him, he starts using it purposefully. Well that's about as good a description as I can cudgel up, and I may have confabulated some of the elements, but I hope that's enough for it to be identifiable. Thanks in advance. 70.19.73.184 (talk) 01:24, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Death Note The series has been on Comcast on Demand recently, and I caught the first few episodes. Pretty good show. Taggart.BBS (talk) 02:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Also on Cartoon Network (mostly on the Saturday "Adult Swim" block). Dragons flight (talk) 02:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

That's definitely it, thanks you. At the same time I am disappointed that it is a cartoon. I only heard a five minute snippet and not from the start and didn't know it was a manga. Don't get me wrong, Spirited Away; Akira; etc. I'm down with great anime, but it aint my first choice as a medium.--70.19.73.184 (talk) 10:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Ahh, but DeathNote is a great anime! It was a manga originally, if you prefer that medium, and they did release the basic story in two movies (although they aren't nearly as great as the manga). I can't actually say whether the manga or the anime is better, as I've never seen the anime, but in manga form it's excellent, pretty much the best I've ever read. --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 15:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You might also like the novels The Lathe of Heaven and The Neverending Story. 207.241.239.70 (talk) 03:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

What is the difference between anime and manga? Phil_burnstein (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

See anime and manga -Elmer Clark (talk) 22:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

There is a live-action film version too. Oda Mari (talk) 04:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Personal Loans

Where / how can one find information of the availability and typical terms associated with personal loans and lines of credit? I have existing accounts with two financial services companies and out of curiosity I went and looked at the loan options each would offer me. It turns out they were quite different on the rates and amounts available. So I am wondering how to determine what is "normal" and whether one of these represents a particularly good deal or a particularly bad deal. I have no plans to take on any added debt in the near-term, so this question is basically hypothetical, but I figure it would be good to know the right approach in case I do want a loan in the future. Is there any good way to get information on rates and offers without filling out a lot of applications? Dragons flight (talk) 01:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

"Normal" is rather subjective; it mainly depends on your credit score. Some services, in addition to providing a credit score, will suggest how your score would influence terms on credit. Unfortunately, such services are not free (unless your previous employer "accidentally" leaked employee information and felt so bad about it that they provided a few "free" months of credit monitoring). For less specific (but more free) information, you might try http://www.bankrate.com/ , which seems at least somewhat impartial. – 74  07:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The different rates might come to pretty much the same if you go through all the fine print. There are fees and charges that are either included or may be significantly lower in the higher rate loan. Look for things like "processing fee", "closing cost" and similar things. The loans may differ in that the up front costs may be higher in one, while the monthly rates are lower and vice versa with the other. Watch out for phrases like, "Our general terms for loans apply". That means you'll have to read those, too. There may also be stiff penalties if you would like to refinance later or pay the remainder off in a lump sum. Don't trust the first info you get. I recently tried to open an account with Bank of America (whom I had considered a reputable bank till now.) The first rep. flat out lied to me about the terms, I went home, checked their pamphlets couldn't find any of the conditions he had offered. I went back and the second rep. tried to hide the true costs in nebulous offers until I asked her to show me what she meant in their documentation. Turns out I'm neither a student nor does my employer bank with them, which were some of the conditions that I would have had to meet to make use of that offer. (Guess who won't be back for a third try.) So read twice, ask several times and don't believe anything that isn't spelled out in writing. --76.97.245.5 (talk) 09:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I've heard that bankrate.com gives some pretty good information in the US. I've never used it before though (plus, I'm in Canada). I'm sure googling for something similar would be helpful. NByz (talk) 21:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

One reason why two lenders might offer you different terms is how much business they do with you. If you have a credit card and checking account at one bank, and pay the credit card in full every month (an excellent practice), let's say they offer you a 10% loan rate. At another bank, you keep $1 million in a low-interest account. My guess is that they would offer you a loan at something less than 10%. The reason is that you are more profitable as a customer to the second bank than to the first. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:30, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

M16 questions

I don't have much experience with guns irl, most of my observations are either second hand or from video games lol. 1) What's the proper way to pull the T-shaped charging handle on the M16? I've always used my right hand's index and middle finger to pull it back on my friend's airsoft M16, it seemed the most natural to me when I used it, but I've seen it done differently before. 2) How does one know the chamber is empty and when to tap the bolt release after loading a new magazine? Pulling back on the charging handle would also work since the bolt catch would disengage right? 67.169.118.40 (talk) 03:05, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Do you seriously expect Wiki RefDesk to help you kill yourself, or anyone else for that matter?! --Dr Dima (talk) 06:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Seems a rather bizarre response. As a counterpoint I'd like to try to give a sensible answer, but unfortunately I only know the British SA-80 family rather than the M16. So this is to some extent speculation, but it'll do until someone who knows for sure comes along.

In British Army practice, the cocking handle is operated using the left hand. The right hand should always be on the pistol grip; to do otherwise is considered not to have full control of the weapon. But this is the answer most likely to differ between SA-80 and M16, especially since the SA-80 is a bullpup and more or less balanced around the pistol grip, which I assume the M16 isn't.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking about the chamber being empty after reloading. You talk about a bolt release, so the principle seems the same as the SA-80 - the bolt locking back when the mag is empty. Barring extractor failure (which one would allow for when making safe, but not reloading), you can't have the bolt to the rear and a round in the chamber. As for when to activate the bolt release - um, after you've put the new mag in. Why would you need to wait for something to happen? You put the mag in, release the bolt, it picks up the first round from the new mag, away you go. And yes, on the SA-80 at least, pulling the cocking handle would disengage the holding-open device. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 08:54, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

My response, above, is far from bizarre. Armies of developed countries only issue firearms to the servicemen & servicewomen after the aforementioned servicemen / servicewomen have received an adequate training and undergone at least rudimentary background check, as well as medical and psychological evaluatuion. The person who is asking the question has presented us with no evidence of any of the above. I believe that instructing a total stranger how to use a firearm is an irresponsible thing to do. --Dr Dima (talk) 09:38, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Looks like the original poster knows to load a magazine and charge the weapon. Assuming he has figured out that the next bit is to squeeze the trigger, the ship on "instructing how to use a firearm" has pretty much sailed by now. Minutiae like which hand to use won't make much of a difference. With movies, video games, and airsoft (which you may have noticed we are talking about here), "let's not tell people how to use a weapon" sounds a shaky plan... 88.112.63.253 (talk) 10:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Understanding how a specific weapon works doesn't have a whole lot to do with whether you know how to handle firearms safely. You could very well be trained in the use of other weapons and yet find yourself wondering how something like this works with another weapon you're not familiar with.

In any case, the assumption (or, in this instance, the accusation) that this knowledge would be used to commit suicide or to kill someone else is... you know, I think there's a really good single word to use here, but I can't think of it, so I'm going to go with "stupid and offensive". And I'm not a particularly pro-gun person, for the record -- gun control strikes me as a great idea. But the idea that telling someone how something like this works leads to people dying is ridiculous, especially as this is something that someone could easily figure out by trial and error in a few minutes, given a certain basic understanding of the firearm in question, which the original poster certainly appears to have. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 10:54, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

My reading of Dr Dima's response was not that the OP would necessarily use this knowledge to kill people, but that killing people is what this knowledge is for. An M16 has no purpose other than killing people, so teaching someone to use one is automatically 'helping them kill people' in this sense. Algebraist 12:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

True, but I think it's far more likely that the OP is asking out of idle curiosity (an admirable quality) than an intention to actually use the knowledge (at least, for anything other than making Airsoft games more realistic). --Tango (talk) 12:38, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that guns are used far more often to coerce (by threat) than to kill. And some people fire military weapons only for fun. —Tamfang (talk) 05:22, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm amused that you probably would have gotten a less hysterical response if you had asked for the arming sequence of a hydrogen bomb. Anyway, here's the operator's manual for the M16: [4]. --Sean 12:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored to conform to someone's notion that we should not answer questions about things which COULD be used for evil purposes, especially when it is as basic as how a particular firearm is properly operated. (edited)Edison (talk) 00:35, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Seconded. Actually, a similar situation happened before (Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007_September_26#Correct_method_of_delivering_a_punch) when refdeskers were wondering whether it was a good idea to give someone tips to deliver a punch. In the end, Wikipedia is only offering information, not telling that person to use a gun or punch someone. --199.198.223.106 (talk) 02:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Okay, that was interesting. Thanks for the link to the manual. I wasn't going to go out and kill myself or other people, if that's what you're wondering. :) I slightly agree with Algraist though, a gun is a tool imo, but a tool to kill people. So yeah, just curious about how a M16 works. Still, how do you tell if it's empty? On some of the more realistic games I've played have 2 reload animations whether there's a round in the chamber or not. On pistols you can see the slide lock back, but on rifles you can really tell if you're playing a video game. 67.169.118.40 (talk) 02:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I still have an op manual around here somewhere. I always pulled the charging handle with my thumb and index finger and held the bolt catch with the other hand. When firing, you either have to count or get the empty click when you run out of rounds. When you slap a magazine in, it usually trips the bolt catch; otherwise you just have to press it. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 03:31, 14 February 2009 (UTC) (who has pumped thousands of rounds of 5.56, 7.62, .50 and 25mm down range)

It is my understanding that military units often load the last 3 rounds of a clip with tracers so that they know the magazine is nearly empty, but I do not believe such rounds are legal for civilian purchase in many locations. 65.167.146.130 (talk) 15:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Multiple Personality Disorder and Wikipedia

For fear of invoking any bean related issues, I was wondering what would happen in this particular situation. Say there was a wikipedia editor suffering from multiple personality disorder. One of those personalities operated a wikipedia account in very good standing, with thousands of positive contributions to the encyclopaedia. Another personality compulsively created multiple troublemaking trolls and sockpuppets, generally causing disruption. If the situation was discovered (say, by a checkuser), what would be the reaction from Wikipedia. Would it block the good account to stop the bad account, or would they be able to come to some arrangement to keep the positive contributions? Richard Hock (talk) 11:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

If such an arrangement could be made (it would probably depend on the details of the case), then I'm sure we would try, but at the end of the day we are here to write an encyclopaedia. If a person is having a net negative effect on that, then they have to go, regardless of whether it can reasonably be considered their fault or not. --Tango (talk) 12:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I think I can safely say that the reaction would be an enormous argument, probably at WP:ANI. Algebraist 13:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Safely say is an understatement. :) I'm trying to recall the last time a decision was reached that didn't also include an enormous argument and coming up short. Come to think of it, the latter seems to happen whether the former happens or not. And if anyone out there disagrees with me...! Matt Deres (talk) 15:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

To be honest though - the 'checkuser' feature is defended vigorously and can only be used in the most serious of cases. When a sock-puppet is suspected, it is generally necessary to show some evidence of common interests, common modes of speech, and common vandalism types before a 'checkuser' is initiated. In this (peculiar) case, I suspect that the total lack of corroborating evidence would cause the admins to refuse to run a checkuser in the first place. Even if a checkuser proves that the two accounts come from the same IP address - that's not concrete proof that they are the same person because sometimes two or more people share a computer - and sometimes DHCP protocol results in the IP address formerly assigned to one computer to be reassigned to a second. So I doubt that the 'good' side of this person's character would get a block - simply because we'd have no way to prove they were the same person. However, if they were somehow shown to be the same person - I'm pretty sure they'd get a block on both accounts. SteveBaker (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The link would come to light when you block the IP address the troll personality is editing from and the nice personality complains that they're blocked. --Tango (talk) 15:35, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Personally I suspect both accounts are likely to be blocked. And this sort of thing has already happened. Well not someone with multiple personalities as far as we know, but the sort of good hand, bad hand account you are describing has and is mentioned in our Wikipedia:Sock puppetry article. While admitedly that's more editors who use one account to edit war, argue excessively, be uncivil, engage in personal attacks etc, there are definitely cases of established editors using another account to commit vandalism, sometimes even correcting the vandalism they engage in. Note that unless the person comes out and tells us, no one is even going to suspect multiple personalities are involved, they're just going to think 'good hand, bad hand'. In these cases, both accounts are usually blocked since engaging in this sort of sockpuppetry is a clear violation of policy, the fact that one account is good doesn't change matter. If the person does say they have multiple personalities there is likely to be a great argument but my gut feeling is it's not going to change matters since it's ultimately impossible to know what problems someone really has and it's most irrelevant if their behaviour is disruptive anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 06:26, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I seriously wonder what your limits would be. Would you let a serial killer edit from prison, (using his real name especially), regardless of how he behaved? Would you let someone send an administrator emails saying "Hey, post this for me please." How about someone with Tourettes Syndrome (yes the swearing kind)? I'm sure all of his bleeping edits could become a bleeping problem, but what if he sincerely couldn't help himself? Would you just quietly remove the offensive material? That last question might sound kind of stupid, but I sincerely wonder how this could be handled, and end with a sunshine day for all.21:41, 13 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TinyTonyyy (talk • contribs)

There is no such thing as "reaction from wikipedia". The wikipedia is more of a guided anarchy. Most rules say "usually", "in most cases", etc.

I can't know for sure, but I'll bet that there are some editors who contribute from prison. If someone wants to help a person with Tourettes and they come to some accomodation, I don't think anyone would object. Phil_burnstein (talk) 22:23, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. On Wikipedia, nobody knows you're a serial killer with Tourette's. All that matters is the quality of the edits. - Eron^Talk 22:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Do swearing Tourettes do that in writing? or only as vocalised tics. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought it was only vocal. When typing there is always the delete button, so even if they did have typed tics, they could correct them. --Tango (talk) 15:35, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Karl Marx

Is this qoute a fake or is Marx the new Nostradamus as it is uncanny to the present day.“Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalised, and the State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to communism” Karl Marx, Das Kapital, 1867. BigDunc^Talk 17:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

It appears to be fake. This seems to be the best discussion Google has to offer. Algebraist 17:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to fit Marx's thoughts very well. He thought the world would be divided between and enslaved majority underclass, who would be barely able to survive, and a rich overclass. You can't "stimulate" people to buy things who are so poor they are starving, since they already spend all their money on absolute necessities. And why would anyone ever lend money to someone like this, who would have no hope of ever paying it back ? Marx did not foresee the rise of the Middle Class, which took away most of the incentive for the class struggle he envisioned. Unfortunately, the Middle Class now seems to be shrinking in many Western nations, due mainly to international trade. StuRat (talk) 18:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

There are several copies of english translations of Das Kapital available online. I've searched them all and I don't see any fragments from that quote anywhere within any of them. However, a google search on the quote brings up hundreds of hits that claim it came from Das Kapital. That suggests that this quote is just an "urban legend". The only other possibility is that (because Das Kapital was originally written in German) everyone is quoting from a different English translation than the various online copies used. But that's an awfully long shot. SteveBaker (talk) 18:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not Marx's view of things anyway. Communism doesn't show up because the state nationalizes banks. Nothing even remotely similar to his view of how communism eventually comes about. It's also cute to imagine Marx talking about people buying technology but in Marx's day technology was not a consumer product, it was the means by which consumer products were made ("technology" for a 19th-century thinker is something that is installed in a factory—like a motorized loom). The idea of "technology" as a category of consumption is a very late-20th century thing. He did, of course, see speculation and such as leading towards destabilized banks, and saw this as a major issue with capitalism in general, but that's the only aspect of the quote which is anything Marxian in nature (and is hardly limited to Marx—anybody with a good head on their shoulders denounces "speculation" of that sort to the degree that it destabilizes markets). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

In other news: Bill Waterson is the new New Nostradamus - [5] - Azi Like a Fox (talk) 19:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The quote doesn't pass my sniff test. What kind of "technology" was Marx worried about the working class spending their money on in 1867? The latest name-brand wringer that all the coolest celebs were hocking in the evening broadsheets? Matt Deres (talk) 15:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

And the use of 'technology' in this sense (i.e. technological goods) has not even made it into the OED yet - their earliest citation of 'high-technology' (from which I think this derives) dates from 1964. Of course it could be a modern translation, but what of? --ColinFine (talk) 19:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not a modern translation, it's just bunk. There weren't technological goods in the modern sense in the 19th century—it wasn't a consumer product at all, and not the sort of thing Marx was concerned with anyway. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 15:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Jacobs Bloodline.

I'm presently looking for any information you would have on the Jacobs Family Bloodline. My Great Grandmother was in the Montiganis Band and I'm trying to fine out more info. If there is any way you can help me it will be greatly appreicated.Her full name was Emma Jane Jacobs, belonging to the Montiganis Band.

Thank you so much for your help with this matter. Sincerely. Maxine Mannchen —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mannchen (talk • contribs) 19:23, 13 February 2009 (UTC) <wikiformatted to fit my tiny screen Julia Rossi (talk) 06:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)>

Hi Maxine Do you know which country she came from? Online sites that may help are http://www.rootsweb.com and http://www.familysearch.org. If she is from USA then ancestry.com has plenty of data for a fee. I can't find Montiganis mentioned, is it a town or a surname, typo, or what? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:49, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I think OP means Montagnais or Innu which would pretty much identify the country as Canada. Great grandmother might be the eighteen-hundreds. It seems most of the population was still living as nomads then. Nevertheless you might find church records. With a surname like "Jacobs" there's likely to be at least a record of a wedding somewhere. I don't think there has been a re-naming effort. The closer to the nineteen hundreds you get the more government records you are likely to find. There seems to have been extensive relocation and settlement efforts after the second world war, which won't make your quest any easier. If your Great Grandfather was a trader there might be record of that and some records of the native people he traded with. If you can locate things a bit more precisely you might find the local equivalent of a "story woman". Oral family histories can be quite as extensive as written records, but are by their very nature a lot harder to access. You will need a translator and it's a good idea to bring a video recorder. What they can tell you in French or English is likely only a sniplet of the whole story. Good luck 76.97.245.5 (talk) 04:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Someone with the same surname lives in Waskagonish. That might be a good start. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 05:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Is non DNA life possible?

Especially on other planets? Like a hydrogen molecule based life, for instance? Has there ever been a paper or some mathematical formula that's worked this out but never witnessed? Kinda like the 27th dimension?TinyTonyyy (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Well first of all, hydrogen doesn't bond in a way to make the huge macromolecules that are needed for life. Carbon is good at this because it has four electrons in its valence shell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.241.6.21 (talk) 21:45, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

There are certainly other options than DNA, although for life anything like the life we know you'll probably need something quite similar. The next best option after carbon is silicon, but it has all kinds of problems. See Alternative biochemistry. I believe there are lifeforms (or maybe just viruses, which aren't always considered lifeforms) on Earth that don't have any DNA, and have just RNA instead, so it's certainly possible. --Tango (talk) 21:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

On earth, the closest thing to nucleic-acid less life may be prions which may or may not meet the definition of "living" on their own. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:17, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing especially privileged about DNA as the genetic material. To be a decent genetic material, you need three things: (1) a way to encode information, (2) a way to decode that information and (3) a way to accurately copy it. DNA works well as genetic material because as the order of A/T/C/G nucleotides provides an easy way to encode information - but this is not unique to DNA. Practically any polymer with multiple subunits could provide this ability. For example, it is widely thought that life used RNA before switching to DNA (the RNA world hypothesis), and some have speculated that TNA or even PNA could have functioned as a genetic material. While all of those use the same A/T/C/G nucleotides as DNA, there's nothing saying that that has to be the case. Several labs have developed alternate base pairs that work in DNA, and if you're using a non-nucleic acid backbone, you certainly could use other "sidechains". I'd also note that, theoretically at least, you're not even limited to linear polymers. A branched molecule can also encode information, as long as you have a good way to easily create the branches when copying and decide which branch to follow when decoding. Which brings us to points 2 & 3; nucleic acids (DNA and RNA) are convenient because they can form base pairs and double helixes, allowing for a very simple way to read off and copy the nucleotide sequence. Nothing says that you have to use direct pairing, though. One can easily envision a polymer that requires extra binding "proteins" that mediate the copying, much like tRNAs mediate the translation from nucleotide sequence to protein sequence. (While tRNAs use base pairing to read out the nucleotide sequence, you wouldn't need to do so. For example DNA binding proteins can read a nucleotide sequence with very high fidelity without needing to use base pairing.) -- 76.201.145.29 (talk) 05:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Answers so far seem to be assuming that it must be chemical. Have a look at Evolving the Alien (the book, rather than the rather brief article. --ColinFine (talk) 19:27, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Second that - it's an excellent and fascinating book. Gandalf61 (talk) 20:02, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it's perfectly possible to imagine a robot that's constructed from nanotechnological parts that could reproduce and meet the criteria for "life". The tricky question is how such a thing could evolve. What makes DNA/RNA 'special' is that it is a bulk storage device that has the ability to reproduce built into its' structure at the most basic level. SteveBaker (talk) 19:55, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

IMHO, any question that begins 'is it possible that...' or similar phrasing should be answered 'yes'. Phil_burnstein (talk) 09:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Such a policy would at least save time. —Tamfang (talk) 05:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

February 14

WikiLove

Hi are there any cases where two Wiki editors simply met in the unlikeliest of places had some fights but gained gained consensus for merge in the end.--Lenticel ^(talk) 04:28, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Err...do you mean people who met on Wikipedia and later married? bibliomaniac15 04:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes sensei, I'm feeling a little Valentiney today, must be the bag of chocolates I ate yesterday.--Lenticel ^(talk) 04:42, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I know of several married admin couples, but I doubt they originally met on Wikipedia. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 05:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Some are already joint editors; at the other end of the spectrum (naming no names), there are wiki widow/er-causing types that confess now and again. Back to chocolates,  ;) Julia Rossi (talk) 06:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah chocolates don't leave you and always make you happy ;)--Lenticel ^(talk) 11:17, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to be pedantic, but chocolates do leave you!--88.110.47.4 (talk) 12:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

No, they don't, that's the problem with them! --Tango (talk) 21:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

How do I start a bird sanctuary?

Or bird farm, aviary auditorium,- or whatever it's called nowadays. Need at least one male and female of every species. I want to see birds as far as the eye can see! Damn, I love birds!Goosemaster Charlie (talk) 04:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The first thing you'd need is a huge plot of land. Become a political activist and lobby that your government will set aside a site. Birds as far as the eye can see isn't a good idea if you really love birds. (Unless you love them like hunters love deer.) Overpopulation isn't healthy and creates a ton of problems. These days birds no longer have the luxury of finding another habitat nearby. Species who can use areas settled by humans as habitat don't need a sanctuary. The others are going to end up in a huge bird cage without bars. If you make the cage big enough and don't put in a lot of birds they'll do fine. If you put in more birds than your cage can support they will suffer. For bird habitat the "Costner movie" rule applies "If you build it they will come." 76.97.245.5 (talk) 05:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Agree up to a point. So many birds seems incompatible with human populations but there once was paradise (see Passenger Pigeon):

The Passenger Pigeon ... was once the most common bird in North America. They lived in enormous flocks and during migration it was possible to see flocks of them a mile (1.6 km) wide and 300 miles (500 km) long, taking several days to pass and containing up to a billion birds.

Maybe you could find a bird sanctuary and work there to research your dream. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that the farmers who lost their crop to them would not agree with your definition of paradise. Another example: ducks on city ponds have in some places increased in numbers due to humans feeding them. They pollute the ponds because they produce too much waste for the natural processes to handle. During mating season female ducks get drowned by several males trying to mate with them. Young males die in attacks by groups of older males. Couples are stressed because nesting sites are overcrowded and territories overlap. Good intentions can be a terrible thing.76.97.245.5 (talk) 08:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure you're right though I was speaking of pigeon paradise before farmers and the rest – duck life in artificial zones is not that. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Mobile phone

I am partly deaf, and always have trouble hearing voice on my mobile. Does anyone know of a mobile that is LOUD by default please?88.110.47.4 (talk) 08:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

This is not my area of expertise but my initial instinct would be to look for a mobile that you can plug a set of earphones into so you can block out extraneous noise when on it, or better yet one that can be connected to a hearing aid. Exxolon (talk) 15:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I did a bit of googling on "phone suitable deaf" and found this phone, which claims to be designed for people with hearing impairment, having a hearing aid induction coil built into the phone itself and also featuring extra loud ringer and speaker volume. There are probably others out there too. Karenjc 18:36, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for this, most helpful.--Artjo (talk) 06:53, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Check out www.emporia.at they specialise in phones for the hard of hearing. Also BINATONE have one. My wife and I have Biantones, and they are good.90.0.5.114 (talk) 15:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)DT

Thanks but I can't find www.emporia. Do you know the full URL please?--Artjo (talk) 17:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The IP gave the full URL - you missed off the ".at" part. --Tango (talk) 17:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Mobiles are generally hard to listen to even with normal hearing. You might try something like a bone conduction headset. Of course you will want to use the vibration setting for noticing when the phone is ringing. 207.241.239.70 (talk) 03:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

km/h in the US

I was just watching Dogma (film) and in the scene where Jay burns out the car by not changing gear they show the panel. The speedometer shows MPH on the outside and km/h on the inside, similar to this one from the UK. At first I assumed the film had been made partially in Canada and the speedometer was something that had got missed. However after checking it appears that the film was made in the US. So the question is, do US cars/trucks have MPH - km/h speedometers and if so why? Is there a push on to have the US become metric? Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 14:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, standard vehicle speedometers always show both units, the only difference is the primary unit for the territory the car is sold in is the outside ring and the other one the inside ring. This allows the car to be driven in other countries using the alternative unit without having to do continual mental calculations of indicated speed vs posted limit in the other units or requiring a speedometer change (in those countries that have a legal requirement for speedometers on vehicles to use local units). Exxolon (talk) 14:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Also - vehicles with electronic displays are probably switchable between the two units. Exxolon (talk) 16:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That makes sense. But I wonder if it's only true for certain countries. The prime example being Canada, Mexico and the US. If you look at the images at speedometer there are some with MPH (outside) km/h (inside), a few km/h (inside) MPH (outside), and those appear to be UK based. while the majority are in km/h only. I think your answer is correct but its only for the three major North American countries. In other parts of the world there would be little need for the conversion scale and would probably be distracting. It would be interesting to see what Liberia and Burma, plus the surrounding countries use on their speedometers. I also looked at the school bus, made in the US and redone in Quebec, and it has km/h with MPH on the inside. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 19:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

What? The USA using pinko communist bastard smelly-cheesy-eating suspender-banging yoo-roo-pee-an units? What is this world coming to? Someone please think of the children! 194.100.223.164 (talk) 09:19, 16 February 2009 (UTC) As far as I can tell a car must have a speedometer calibrated in kmh to be driven legally in Canada [6]. It would be stupid of US car sellers to prevent their owners driving them across the border occasionally just so that they save a few pennies in cost. Cars in Canada almost invariably have kmh on the oustide and mph on the inside. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I have had american made cars with both types. My Oldsmobile had both MPH and KPH, while my Ford has only MPH. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.167.146.130 (talk) 20:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Some US speedometers show both mph and kph. I think it is more a matter of style; the kph looks sporty, like having a pseudo-tachometer at the cost of a little extra paint. Of course kph isn't a truly metric unit either. If those furriners really used the metric system, their speedometers would read in meters per second. 207.241.239.70 (talk) 03:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, kilometres per second would be OK too, but there are very few cars capable of going that fast. It's a common misconception that any SI unit with a prefix is a bastard unit which should be avoided at all costs. They are not base units, but that doesn't make them any less suitable for use. It's just the hour that is not a real SI unit, as it's actually 3.6 kiloseconds. JIP | Talk 18:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

How about nanolights? —Tamfang (talk) 05:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Neck is broken

I've heard that you don't die immediately when your neck is broken, you're just immobilized until you suffocate. True? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.240.66 (talk) 16:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

It varies. Some people die immeadiately, some suffocate, some are just left paralysed, some make a full recovery. See Cervical fracture. --Tango (talk) 16:22, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

A broken neck is not necessarily fatal, or even permanently disabling. A lot depends on whether there is damage to the spinal cord - it's entirely possible to break your neck and die instantly, or make a complete recovery - it depends on so many factors - type of injury, speed and quality of medical care, immobilisation of the casualty prior to movement etc. Exxolon (talk) 16:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The Ref Desk does not give medical advice. Sorry, couldn't resist ;-) --41.15.215.119 (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Err... Whose neck do you want to break? Not your mother-in-law's, I hope? :P 117.194.229.147 (talk) 09:00, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Are vitamins placebos?

Study after long term study claims that vitamins have absolutely zero benefits. I clearly have felt better since starting my own vitamin program a few years ago, however. I now need less sleep, dont get sick anymore, cut way back on caffeine, etc. Is this just my imagination? Jabbering Jogger (talk) 19:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Vitamins are quite definitely necessary for healthy human life. Do you mean dietary supplements? Where are these studies you mention? Algebraist 19:39, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I cant remember the exact reference, but I've been reading article after article in major newspapers for years. 2 major studies just concluded in the last month so those should be easy to google. The thing is however, I feel healthier. That's why I was asking (about supplements).Jabbering Jogger (talk) 19:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Pretty much anything can, and will, have a placebo effect. I'm sure dietary supplements have one. If you have any vitamin/mineral deficiencies then they will also have a "real" effect (real in quotes because placebos are, in fact, very real, but I couldn't think of a better word!). --Tango (talk) 19:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

This may be one of the studies you are referring to. It actually appeared to show that supplement are HARMFUL in the long term. Are supplements snake oil? --S.dedalus (talk) 20:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, they are beneficial if you actually have a vitamin/mineral deficiency. It's just that most people don't. A healthy diet contains everything you need (that's what makes it healthy!), and really isn't difficult to have. (There are groups, like pregnant women, that may benefit from supplements - I don't think the study you mentioned considered any particularly at risk groups.) One last point - you didn't link to a study, you linked to a newspaper article about a study, they often bare little resemblance to the study itself. If you are seriously interested in the subject you should at least read the abstract of the actual scientific paper. (For the one mentioned in that article, see [7].) --Tango (talk) 20:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Very true Tango, but I felt that the newspaper article would be more useful to the discussion as a whole. I have trouble deciphering what “...significantly increased mortality in a fixed-effect model (RR 1.04, 95% CI 1.02 to 1.06). In meta-regression analysis, the risk of bias and type of antioxidant supplement were the only significant predictors of intertrial heterogeneity” means, and I suspect I’ve taken bio-chemistry more recently than the average reference desk reader. --S.dedalus (talk) 20:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Bio-chemistry is useless for this, it was a statistical review of previous studies. You need to be a statistician to understand it. The abstract does contain an understandable conclusion, though. --Tango (talk) 20:42, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I would reserve judgment for experts, like say...Nobel laurates. The Nobel prize was awarded to Linus Pauling for the discovery of vitamin C, and he followed up with a book on the relationship between vitamin C and the common cold. Preventative medicine does not sell well, like peace initiatives. Your experence is anicdotal, i.e. its only a single example, but studies in the 80s and 90s in regards to Dennis Levine's free-radical theory of aging showed both how seriously flawed the RDA allowences and the variation in metaoblism, and the scientific studies related to life extension. I also have anicdotal evidence. I have taken vitamins for decades, and I am much healthier than all my high school cohorts. start with looking for "Life Extension, A Practical scientific approach" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.88.70.244 (talk) 05:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I suspect more Nobel laurates think Linus Paulings beliefs on vitamin C were 'far-fetched' then support him. And actually, there are a lot of people very interested in preventative medicine, many even more interested then they are in peace iniatives. Of course, they do want the iniatives to be subjected to ordinary peer reviewed studies before they support then rather then simply going by the beliefs of one nobel prize winner. Linus Paulings is of course not the only nobel prize winner who has controversial other beliefs, so does James D. Watson for example Nil Einne (talk) 05:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

JUst to correct the innacuracy, Pauling's 1954 Chemistry Nobel Prize was awarded for, and I quote from the Nobel Committee themselves, "for his research into the nature of the chemical bond and its application to the elucidation of the structure of complex substances". There were TWO Nobel Prizes awarded for the work on discovery, isolation, and synthesis of Vitamin C; both in 1937: Albert Szent-Györgyi won the Medicine award for its discovery and Walter Haworth won the Chemistry prize for its laboratory synthesis. Pauling did write a book in his very later years titled "How to Live Longer and Feel Better" which advocated for Vitamin C megadosage; however mainstream medicine has largely discredited such practice as likely quackery. Pauling was undoubtedly the most important chemist of the 20th century, however the Vitamin C thing was not his best work... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps if we approach the problem from the other side? What are the causes of night blindness, beriberi, pellagra, macrocytic anaemia and scurvy. Personal experience is not the best guide in scientific experimentation. Richard Avery (talk) 08:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, no, vitamins are very important. The question is whether or not doses of vitamins beyond which is needed to prevent the above disorders are important... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Bad weather this week?

Where is an area of the world, preferably the United States, that experienced bad weather this week and/or power outages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.61.31.223 (talk) 21:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The UK has had pretty bad weather for the last couple of weeks - more than a few millimetres of snow, so nobody could move. I don't know of any power outages, though. --Tango (talk) 21:45, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

There was some pretty bad weather in the February 2009 tornado outbreak... Adam Bishop (talk) 22:05, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

This would probably qualify [8]76.97.245.5 (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

There were something like 30,000 homes without power (not to mention 181+ people killed) as a result of the 2009 Victorian bushfires that reached theiir most critical point last Saturday, 7 February. The immediate cause was record high temperatures combined with gale-force winds, which ignited vegetation that was very dry as a result of prolonged drought. It didn't help that there was also considerable fire-bug activity, and one person has been arrested for arson causing death. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:11, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Auckland has had both bad weather (at least by some definitions) [9] [10] and power outages [11], the past two weeks although they were unconnected and of course isn't in the United States Nil Einne (talk) 05:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Ongoing drought in China, and I'm sure I heard about floods somewhere as well. Astronaut (talk) 01:47, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

HOA 2/3rds, 3/5ths of members - what happens when the result is not a whole number?

My HOA by-laws state that for certain actions a fraction of the total board members must vote in the affirmative. If the fraction does not result in a whole number, e.g., 2/3rds of 8 = 5.33 and 3/5ths of 8 = 4.8, what number of members does that imply 2/3rds = 5 or 6, 3/5ths = 4 or 5? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BellCurve (talk • contribs) 22:37, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Robert's Rules of Order (and common sense) demand that the specified fraction is a minimum standard which must be passed. (See, for example, this link.) If the requirement is 2/3 and there are 8 voters, there must be at least six votes in favor to pass the motion — fewer votes in favor would be less than 2/3 of the total votes. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 23:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

If it doesn't specify, I think you always round the requirement up. As a general rule of thumb, when in doubt you always err on the side of status quo (which is usually rejecting a motion). Sometimes you see phrases like "the whole number closest to one third of the membership", in that case you do exactly what it says - round to the nearest (how you round halfs in that circumstance, I don't know... I would round them up in most cases in order to favour the status quo). --Tango (talk) 23:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Why would you need to round? In the example of requiring a 2/3rds majority with 8 voters, 5 yeas does not meet the 2/3 requirement and so is insufficient to pass the resolution. Six exceeds the minimum; no rounding needed. Even if we increase the totals, 499 yeas out of 999 votes doesn't make 50%. You have to meet the minimum; close doesn't cut it! Matt Deres (talk) 00:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

(Linked the subject, for people like me who have no idea what 'HOA' might stand for) --ColinFine (talk) 09:48, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Colin. Phil_burnstein (talk) 10:11, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

February 15

Goalkeeping brothers?

Hi all - a quick thought... have any two brothers ever both been goalkeepers at the higher levels of football? The sport is littered with brothers who have both played in the outfield (the Charltons being perhaps the most famous pair), but how about 'keepers? By "higher level" I'm thinking a someh=where in a national league set-up or international level. Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha? 01:15, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

This is entry level google-fu: [12]. Lots of links, including Viktor and Vyacheslav Chanov who played keepers for the USSR 1982 World Cup team. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

WHAT DOES RECESSION ACTUALLY MEANS ???

I am confused with some questions, so please somebody give me explanation. According to me, if somebody sell somebody buy, so money is going from one to another. So how the problem to economic is coming. In the way i am saying that, money is there with somebody, maybe he is keeping it safe. And suddenly why nodoby is interested in buying any things, slowly it affects all of us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.154.228.67 (talk) 09:25, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Suppose a family wants to buy a house and later they want to sell it. If prices go up, they will sell and make a profit. if prices go down, they will take a loss.

Until two years ago, houseing prices were going up very high, very fast. Many people borrowed money from banks to buy houses they could not afford. As long as prices kept on going up, they could sell the houses, pay off the loans, and keep the profits.

Eventually prices became so high that people were not buying any more. People who had houses they could not afford lost a lot of money. They could not pay the banks back the money they borrowed, so the banks took their houses.

Houseing prices were going down very low, very fast. Sometimes the banks could only sell the houses at a price lower than the loans, so the banks lost a lot of money too.

The banks could not afford to lend any more money to businesses. When businesses could not get new loans, they had three choices. They could raise their prices, they could lower the wages of their workers, or they could go out of business.

If they went out of business, they could not pay the old loans back to the banks, and many banks went out of business too.

If this combination of prices going up, wages going down, businesses going bankrupt, and people fearing for their jobs, lasts for more than half a year, it is called recession. Phil_burnstein (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Economists and politicians may use a number of definitions for the term 'recession', but the most common and straightforward is the one at the beginning of our article on recessions:

[A] recession is a decline in a country's gross domestic product (GDP), or negative real economic growth, for two or more successive quarters of a year.

In other words, if a country's economy shrinks – as measured by the size of its gross domestic product – for a sustained period, it is considered to be in recession. Literally, the size of its economy is receding. The other signs that Phil Burnstein talks about (wage declines, inflation, poor credit availability, etc.) may be causes or effects of recession, but they aren't usually part of the definition.

You write "money is there with somebody." True enough, but the notion that money, in itself, is that important went out with merchantilism at the end of the 18th century. As all the responders have indicated, it is the circulation of money that is critical. B00P (talk) 18:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

In other words: You sell something that costs one dollar, I buy it and give you a dollar. The next day you take the dollar and you buy something. The dollar has been used to buy two things. Later the person you bought from takes the dollar and buys something else. Now the same dollar has bought three things. As this goes on, at the end of the year the one dollar could buy a hundred things.

Manwhile the dollar that has been kept safe only bought one thing. We say that it has circulated once. The other dollar may have circulated through the economy one hundred times. The more money circulates, the richer everybody will be. If people are afraid and don't buy so much, the circulation goes down. If the circulation gets slower, and it keeps on being slower for a long time, this is called recession. Phil_burnstein (talk) 04:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Rather than dancing around the definition, let's cut to the chase: a recession is a prolonged decline in the volume (number) of transactions in an economy. Fewer retail sales lead to fewer wholesale purchases which lead to less production (or, imports for a post-manufacturing economy) which leads to less hiring (more layoffs) which reduces the amount of money available for retail purchases. When all of this is very deep, very long and accompanied by a general decline in prices, then it becomes a depression. DOR (HK) (talk) 06:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a little adjustment: it's a decrease in the 'value' of transactions (price [in "real" or non-inflationary terms] * volume)(including production that isn't sold to anyone) in the economy. NByz (talk) 10:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

What prospects are there (if any) of a peaceful and rational accommodation of islamic intolerance of other faiths.

I don't want to start an argument here on Wiki as I have too much respect for the site and its subscribers. But I am genuinely curious to know whether the current apparent fervour in the Islamicist movement towards world domination can ever be peacefully resolved so as to produce an outcome inclusively tolerant to other faiths - or whether the likelihood - as in previous drives in pursuit of world domination - is more likely to end in a world war and utter - though not absolute - devastation, that will ensue and eventually bring about some kind of peace? 92.23.80.2 (talk) 17:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

We don't do speculation here. We can look up facts - but I don't think there is evidence to be found either way. Sorry. SteveBaker (talk) 17:54, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, SteveBaker. An e/c with you just saved me from posting something far less assumptive of good faith. ៛ BL ៛ (talk) 18:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

OK - I read those responses and am not in the least bit surprised at them, so I will ask a supplementary here - can (and will) anyone here direct me to a site where I can investigate the prospects (and hopefully, the possibilities) of a peaceful accord (or otherwise) emerging from the current absolutist islamicist drive towards world domination, in the sincere personal hope that such an outcome (based on historic precedents) can indeed emerge? Thanks in anticipatiion.92.23.80.2 (talk) 19:02, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I think your question is based on a false assumption. There isn't any great Islamic intolerance of other faiths, there are just a few power hungry (and very persuasive and manipulative) people that happen to be Islamic and have chosen Islam (or, at least, something that masquerades as Islam) as a means to gain power. --Tango (talk) 19:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Tango, I really appreciate your prompt response - but please don't be offended at my asking you to give me some credible references for your apparently opinion-based answer. It's not that I don't believe you are correct (in point of fact I hope you are correct) - it's just that I want to have some hard and reliable evidential material that I can hang my hat on. Thanks again. 92.20.42.16 (talk) 19:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for your assumption. --Tango (talk) 19:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Well... I just watched a copy of the FITNA video that was sent to me by a reliable contact - and what I saw was so graphic, horrendous, bloodthirsty, lacking in any human grace, and frankly scary, that the absolutism contained therein made me hope and trust that someone here in Wiki would have a reference site that would persuade me that the message contained in the video had been challenged and hopefully denied as representative of Islam, by the Islamic Faith leaders, whomsoever they may be. Does that persuade you or would you like a copy of the video? 92.20.42.16 (talk) 19:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

What pity your manifest intolerance (and that of Geert Wilders) turns your question into xenophonic jingoism. I believe that a supremacist Nazi forum may be more suitable to your ideology. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I think it is grossly unfair to assume that all Muslims want to "conquer the world" and "eliminate the infadels" simply because certain Muslims have adopted that particular way of thinking. That said, I believe that Western society in general is just as against Muslim society as certain Muslims are against the West. If fingers are going to be pointed, then they must be pointed in both directions. Either both sides must realize that they have to work together to solve the problem, or the bloodshed will go on for time eternal, or at least until one side is simply worn away to practically nothing and is unable to keep up the fight. Let me ask this: how many humans do you want to see die just so that you can "prove" (by strength of numbers alone) that your side is "right"? --Ericdn (talk) 20:26, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt and energetic response Cookatoo - but what does it mean? You accuse me of zenophobia when all I seek is guidance - you accuse me of naziism when all I seek is acceptance and tolerance and understanding for all people, races, and cultures during a very real, pertinent and current threat to the ideals I (and multitudes of other humans) hold so dear. Why do you attack me when I am the innocent bystander and observer of this great trouble and NOT the perpetrator? Why not explain to me why I as the OP must subject myself to the oppressive messages portrayed in FITNA, without question or challenge? I really would appreciate a shaft of your brilliant light of understanding and perception being shone upon me to illuminate the darkness that you believe exists in my mind. I look forward to your considered response. And let us not forget Ken Bigley. 92.22.50.198 (talk) 20:39, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not the case that you "must subject yourself to the oppressive messages portrayed in FITNA", or in anything else. The moment you see something you don't like, you have the power to turn it off or leave the room. You can question and challenge anything you disagree with. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Jack, I appreciate that - BUT - here on Wikipedia it seems that when I question or challenge an offensive (to me at least) stance made by others - it is apparently fair play for respondents to accuse me of being zenophobic and a nazi - and all subsequent criticism of my legitimate question is directed at me. Dear God - I have to get out of here - I have just realised something sinister is going on................... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.50.198 (talk) 20:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Let me briefly quote from your postings, number 92: "what prospects (if any)", "islamic intolerance", "fervour towards world domination", "absolutist islamicist drive" and so on.

And yet, you require some "hard and reliable evidential material" in your search for "acceptance and tolerance and understanding for all people, races, and cultures" ?

I don´t know where you learned your dialectic, but it bears some improvement. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:24, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

We are very tolerant of questions about pretty much anything here (baring homework and requests for medical and legal advice). The problem isn't your question, it's the assumption implied in your question. If you had asked "Do all Muslims want to take over the world?" we would have happily answered your question (and probably found some statistics to back up our answer). But you didn't ask that, you just assumed they did and asked what could be done about it. --Tango (talk) 21:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard of Fitna or Geert Wilders before until I read about the discussion here, but from the sounds of it the OP sounds pretty open minded to get some proof for or against his assumption that he has made. Yet instead of providing references to reason and justify the premise made that number92 is wrong, labels were instead slapped on him and he was scared away...I'm sorry, but since when did Wikipedians call people names and scare them away before providing links/book references/other citations to educate an OP, no matter how misled we think they are? --JDitto (talk) 22:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Or just gently pointing out that Islamic and Islamicist aren't interchangeable? almost-instinct 22:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I enjoyed Benazir Bhutto's last book. It addresses this topic. NByz (talk) 22:26, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

By no means was the OP open-minded. His/her question was an object example of ingenuousness and 'begging the question'. Cookatoo and Tango were harsh, but called the real issue here accurately. It wasn't an enquiry, it was a basic agent provocateur gambit, and a lazy one, to boot. Even the Fitna article itself links to Beyond Fitna, and many other responses are available online that my cat could have googled. Evidently, the OP's true objective was neither information nor enlightenment. I hope this is not a person who is touring forums merely in order to start anti-Islamic threads (as I have seen done elsewhere), but a new/unregistered user who disappears when no-one bites is a dispiriting symptom. Oh well, s/he will be satisfied by at least raising the profile of Geert Wilders' film. Centrepull (talk) 14:58, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Some articles that, while perhaps not directly answering the question asked, might be useful for the OP: Islamophobia, Liberal movements within Islam, and International reaction to Fitna. Pfly (talk) 07:20, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Has there ever been a case in history where a movement towards world domination has been peacefully resolved so as to produce an outcome inclusively tolerant to other faiths? If not, I would rate the prospects of it happening now as being rather small. Phil_burnstein (talk) 10:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Christianity and Islam have both been fairly tolerant of other faiths at various times and places. Algebraist 10:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Although I have not seen Fitna, I have heard it is more of a propaganda film in that it is very one-sided. I can see where this discussion is going. And yes, feel free to ask around on Stormfront, I'm sure they'll give you the answer you're looking for. ;) Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 11:32, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Who makes the decisions about names on British road-signs?

Does anyone know which governmental body/bodies makes decisions about which names are applied to which location? For example in the inner sections of a city a road sign might directions to the "City Centre", but in the outskirts the signs might instead say "Manchester". Who sets these rules? And how do they reach their decisions? almost-instinct 19:30, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It will be either the Highways Agency or the local council. (Probably the former for motorways and other major roads and the latter for the more local roads.) --Tango (talk) 19:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

More likely a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.--Artjo (talk) 08:56, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It's hardly illogical. On the outskirts you want confirmation that the place you are entering is the city you expect (in this example Manchester) and then once you are 'in' the city you want directions to the 'city centre' - if it kept saying "Manchester" it would be confusing as that is where you are. I'm sure there are examples of confusing road-signs but the setup of city-name on outskirs, city-centre in the inner area makes sense to me. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure it isn't at all illogical. However I would still like to know who makes the decision, and what criteria they are using. For example, in one part of the City of Leeds you see signs to "City Centre" and in another part of the City of Leeds you see signs to "Leeds". And it always makes sense. So: does a central body give guidelines to local authorities on how to make the decisions? Somebody, somewhere in the governmental system is making these decisions, and I would like to know the "who" and the "why". Clearly in unitary authorities, esp. those called "City of ...", that contain large quantities of rural land the concept of being "'in' the city" is a complex business; if someone in government has come up with some rules, that would be interesting. almost-instinct 10:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I was actually thinking about Leeds as I thought about bad uses of the phrase city centre on signs... being that Leeds is contiguous with several other sizable places, there are several signs in the areas in between, say, Leeds and Bradford that I found myself wondering exactly which city centre I was being pointed to. In most cases it is indeed logical, but I agree that i'd be interested to hear what the rules surrounding this are and who decides it. ~ mazca ^t|c 10:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Ha ha! Hadn't thought of that problem! Excellent point almost-instinct 11:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The official(s) I'd like to get hold of are the ones who start signing, and then miss a crucial junction.86.202.27.179 (talk) 16:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)DT

And the signs in France are set at 45 degrees so straight on or turn left ? Also the French sign the next town or towns,. not the final destination. So to get from Paris, say, to Marseilles one needs to know the names of the towns en route (except on the autoroutes). Also, while I am banging on, why do the French name airports and railway stations by the village where they are, and not the city they serve? So Gharles de Gaule is not Paris, it Oissey! Sort that out!86.202.27.179 (talk) 16:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)DT

Ahem... that's Roissy. But aren't the French right? The Charles de Gaulle International Airport is at Roissy, and not at Paris, which is 25 kilometres away. Strawless ^(talk) 23:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Chess strategies

Hello there. Since I am a chess player (at the moderate-advanced level) and have been doing this, I must know: Is playing against yourself in chess a way to possibly improve your playing? Thanks. :) --DocDeel516 ^discuss 21:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I love chess too! While playing against yourself can be quite amusing for some time, I've learned from my own personal experience that looking up a few chess chess problems and setting them up on my board and attempting to solve them to be much more productive. If you have limited access to the internet, I suggest checking out some chess problem books from your neighborhood library. --JDitto (talk) 22:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Playing against a computer definitely helps, of course. Tempshill (talk) 06:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

• I don't think it does (playing against yourself). To keep sharp, your opponent needs to play unexpected moves and when you play yourself, you can't help but make response moves your other self already thought through when he made them. I'd stick with playing against a computer or real people. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:28, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Nowadays (as Tempshill has suggested) any good chess program on a computer will be a more challenging opponent. Strawless ^(talk) 23:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

soda pop book

Hi, my bottle of soda pop spilled on my favorite book while it was in my backpack and now it doesn't just have the soda's orangey color on over one side of all the pages but its also sticky and smelly from the sugar! I'm going over it right now with the hair dryer, but I realize that this isn't going to do anything to fix the color stains or the stickiness. It's only a softcover, so should I dunk it back in water to try and wash it away, or will it this harm the book even more? --JDitto (talk) 21:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Speaking from experience, I'm afraid you're kinda screwed. Trying to wash it away will make it worse. The only thing I can tell you is that next time, make sure your bottle is tightly screwed shut so that it doesn't spill and ruin your valuables. --Whip it! ^{Now whip it good!} 22:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

In other words, if the pop cap isn't screwed, then your book will be. StuRat (talk) 16:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh thanks for the warning! But out of curiousity, how will the water make the book even worse than what it is? --JDitto (talk) 22:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

It's never going to be good as new, and adding water could end up destroying it. But if the alternative is throwing it away, you might as well try, right? Paperback books don't instantly dissolve in water - some divers who have long decompression stops to do have been known take books down with them to read while they wait. What the water does do is make them very much more fragile, but if you're gentle with it while it's wet you should be able to avoid tearing it. What I would do is soak the affected pages in lukewarm water for an hour or so, giving it a gentle swill round with my hand occasionally to move the sugar-saturated water away from the book. If the spine isn't dirty then keeping it out of the water is probably a good idea. Then take the book out and let it dry naturally somewhere warm but not too hot. The big problem will be preventing the pages sticking together - if it's only a few, perhaps try putting kitchen paper between them while drying? (I've never tried this.) Good luck with it. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 23:07, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

(e/c because of faulty connection) Ditto what the user above me said. But personally, I recommend leaving it as it is. --Whip it! ^{Now whip it good!} 23:36, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Considering the cost of paperback books, unless this specific book has sentimental value or the title is ridiculously overpriced, I'd recommend buying a new copy and trashing the old one. As far as lessons go, $10 is a relative steal. – 74  00:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

While the pages and ink aren't water soluble, it seems that some of the glues used at the binding are, so avoid getting that wet, as previously stated. The wet pages will never quite be flat again, but that might be a less serious problem than being soaked with orange pop. Another suggestion, if it's only a few pages, is to use a copier to copy them from a good book (maybe at the library), cut the ruined pages out of your book, and insert the replacement pages in their place. Perhaps you could staple them in. This will look bad, but might make it more readable and less smelly. StuRat (talk) 17:04, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

However, the pages of the book might stick together before they dry, which could be a problem. ~AH1^(TCU) 17:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I would NOT reccommend wetting the pages of a book, as the ink will smear and the book will be illegible. Honestly, even if you lick your thumb and wipe it across the writing in certain books, the writing smudges. So water is kinda out of the equasion. ;) Queenie ^Talk 21:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

February 16

LHC

Why has all talk of the LHC died down? JCI (talk) 00:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

"Unfortunately on 19th September a fault developed on a small number of superconducting magnets. The repair will required a long technical intervention which overlaps with the planned winter shutdown. The LHC beam will, therefore, not see beam again before spring 2009." says the site LHC links to. almost-instinct 00:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Because the Earth didn't implode into a black hole? – 74  00:25, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It didn't even have a chance to—it broke before it even got up to speed. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 00:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Which means, when they do get it working again, we get to go through having every other question on the Science desk be about the end of the world again... I can't wait! --Tango (talk) 00:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Just imagine if it doesn't go online until 2012. Then we can have two crazy theories merge into one. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

They already were merged - there were plenty of people that thought it would take 4 years for a micro-blackhole to destroy the world. (For, as far as I can tell, no reason other than that 2008+4=2012.) --Tango (talk) 14:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I think they had yet another problem - they are now predicting that it'll be offline until September. SteveBaker (talk) 03:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

They probably realized that they'd destroy the universe if they ran it and are trying to look for a way out without admitting they were wrong. Pesky scientists, always up to no good. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 04:35, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Stephen Hawking said he would have hosted an End of the World Party when the LHC was turned on, but he was sure the press would pick it up, thinking he had been serious, and cause a panic. Tempshill (talk) 06:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I have December 21st, 2012 marked down on my MSN calender as the end of the world. :) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Would you mind writing me a check, dated Dec 22nd, 2012? Just leave the amount blank, but include a letter authorizing your bank to tell me how much money is left in the account. Thanks! DOR (HK) (talk) 06:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Hypocrisy

I'm sure I asked this question yesterday, but there must have been an e/c or something. Anyhow: I remember an MP in the House of Commons causing an incident by calling another member a "hypocrite" whilst in the house. The word was apparently considered very bad form and he had to apologise to the speaker. Is there a list of such words? Is "hypocrite" considered offensive in any other situations in the world? Thanks. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 11:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The article Unparliamentary language has some information on this. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:16, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

That is probably the perfect article. Hypocrisy must fall under the dishonourable/lying clause. Cheers! - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 11:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Maybe this explains how the MPs try to insult one another without seeming to do so. This is always amusing to watch. StuRat (talk) 16:53, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4511352.stm :

Yet the former Labour MP Tony Banks escaped rebuke for accusing Margaret Thatcher of acting "with the sensitivity of a sex-starved boa-constrictor".

He also once described - with impunity - the former Tory MP Terry Dicks as "living proof that a pig's bladder on the end of a stick can be elected to Parliament".

Ha! - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 16:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm reminded of a line in The Millionairess (not linked, because the link is only to the film, and I don't know if this line made it into the film) by George Bernard Shaw: "If I questioned your solvency, that would be a libel (sic). If I suggested that you are unfaithful to your wife, that would be a libel. But if I call you a rhinoceros--which you are: a most unmitigated rhinoceros--that is only vulgar abuse." Apart from GBS's confusion of libel and slander, a lovely line. --ColinFine (talk) 19:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly the case in the Australian Parliament (which adheres to many of the Westminster traditions) that members can't call one another "hypocrites", "liars", "bastards", and so on. Not even "she is a stranger to the truth". That's describing the member themself, and is an insult to their assumed honour. But they can usually get away with describing their behaviour or their words - "what the honourable member said was a lie", "that was a hypocritical statement", etc. That's why Banks got away with it. Paul Keating was a master of this - he's famous/notorious here for referring to our Senate as "unrepresentative swill", and on another occasion he said some members were "like dogs returning to their vomit". But if he'd said they were dogs returning to their vomit, he'd have been made to retract. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

And, if I may say so, they're quite right in finding descriptions of behaviour - no matter how unsavoury or lurid (up to a point) - far more acceptable than attacks on people. Wikipedia has exactly the same philosophy, for good reasons. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:19, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Keating was making a Biblical allusion (or quoting Kipling) with "dogs returning to their vomit". It's Proverbs 26:11 (I think) or The Gods of the Copybook Headings for the Kipling. I doubt even the Australian parliament would prevent a chap quoting Kipling or the Bible. DuncanHill (talk) 04:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know that, Duncan. I guess that's where the words ultimately came from, but I doubt he was quoting the Bible or Kipling as such. He was simply applying a juicy epithet to his political enemies. I'm sure you could find expressions in the Bible that would be unparliamentary if used other than as quotes. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that the "league table" of generating phrases which have passed into speech (that is, are used by people who have no knowledge of the source), it goes 1) Bible, 2=)Shakespeare & Kipling, and the rest nowhere. If someone uses a phrase that sounds both particularly choice, and like it's a "standard", chances are you can find it in one of them. DuncanHill

(talk) 17:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) If you can find it, then I remember reading a list of words declared 'unparliamentary' in a journal published by the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association intended for those working to support the Speakers and Presiding Officers of commonwealth legislatures. It was on the last page and appeared to be there partly for light relief of the officials at the expense of the Parliamentarians. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Why Is Southern California So Sunny?

The header says it all.--A.z888?z.a (talk) 22:48, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Pretty low latitude and no large hills/mountains to the west of it, I think. Low latitude means the sun is more powerful, making it nice and hot, the lack of hills means you don't get clouds forming as the air is forced to rise to get over them. The west bit is because the prevailing winds are (south)west to (north)east. --Tango (talk) 22:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Generally speaking. Right now we're having a massive storm. bibliomaniac15 23:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Mediterranean climate Pfly (talk) 08:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

How long do royalties last?

In the Screen Acting business, how long do trailing royalties last? For example, in my television market, Hogan's Heroes (now forty years old) still plays two episodes a day in the afternoon. Is Richard Dawson still collecting a check off them? If yes, anybody have the straight poop on how much he gets from each one?

Thanks! --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:05, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

See Residual (entertainment industry) for some (although I think not enough) info. Mimetic Polyalloy (talk) 11:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

February 17

Youngest person in college

Who was the youngest person ever admitted into college or university in recorded human history? --Whip it! ^{Now whip it good!} 00:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Michael Kearney holds the Guinness record for youngest college graduate (a mark I would consider substantially more significant) at age 10. For what it's worth, he was admitted at 6. — Lomn 01:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. --Whip it! ^{Now whip it good!} 01:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

New lady friend

This is a serious Q so please do not delete it. I have just acquired a new lady friend who appears to be over 70 years of age. (I don't know exactly because I'm too much of a gentleman to ask her). Any way what I want to know is: if she cant self lubricate, will she still be able to produce the same sexy odour (that I like so much) from her vagina?--GreenSpigot (talk) 00:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Is there a gynecologist in the house? We could do with some expert attention to vaginal lubrication. The OP may wish to read about sex pheromones, an understudied phenomenon. Much of the odor of the perineal region and vulva is cused by bacteria, to boot. BrainyBabe (talk) 01:05, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

What will it matter what she smells like if she passes her chlamydia on to you? Okay...maybe she doesn't have an STD, but my point is that if you don't know her well enough to know her age (or, better yet, whether or not she has an STD), you should probably be focusing on courtship at present. And since a previous RD question of yours conveyed at least an interest in God, I might suggest you also read the articles on fornication and abstinence. --Eustress (talk) 05:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately you mistake my slight interest in peoples blind belief in God for a willingness to abide by rules contained in a load of outdated claptrap. The war makers abided by the rules. Your point about STDs is, however, noted. I shall asker her if she has any.--GreenSpigot (talk) 11:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It is with sadness that I note a lack of celebratory fervour for Mr Spigot's spirit of adventure. Further expressions of this leaning can be seen here. Bon voyage, Mr Spigot! almost-instinct 13:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Thats funny, her name IS Palmer!--GreenSpigot (talk) 14:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

A gentleman would not divulge the lady's name - BLOCK :( hydnjo talk 02:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Guitar Hero 3 Karaoke

Are there any places I could get the songs in Guitar Hero 3 on Karaoke? More specifically, I want "The Devil Went Down to Georgia." If there's anywhere else you could get this song in karaoke played by a guitar, that would work too. Thanks --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 02:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

There is a neat trick you can to do eliminate vocals from almost any normal stereo recording. If you download a program called 'Audacity' - there is a plugin that allows you to do this easily. What it does is to rely on the fact that almost all sound engineers place the vocalist in the exact center of the stereo field. If you subtract the left audio channel from the right - you end up with a recording with either no vocals - or greatly reduced volume of vocals. SteveBaker (talk) 03:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

That's very clever, but don't you risk losing some of the instrumental part as well? Or, at least, unbalancing it. --Tango (talk) 13:45, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It will diminish the quality of the audio, so keep a backup of the original track. "Fortunately," the karaoke singer's voice will "fill out" the tones that have been damped out, and I doubt anyone will notice the damped instrumental section. Nimur (talk) 17:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I would imagine that when they remove the commonalities, they wouldn't do it for the entire frequency range, just the frequeny range of the human voice. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't know that! Thank you so much! --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 06:51, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I too was skeptical - but for most pieces of music it's works like magic. The sound engineers generally don't put two or more instruments at a particular spot in the stereo image - so other instruments don't get wiped out to the degree you might expect. Obviously it doesn't work for everything - some pieces work better than others. Duet's suffer particularly badly because (as you might expect) neither of the two singers are placed precisely centrally...and some pieces of music - for whatever reason - don't obey the convention. But if you just want to make a bunch of karaoke music - you'll find plenty of pieces where the vocals simply vanish. It's not necessary to restrict the range of frequencies though - the trick works great with the simplest math. The main problem is that your resulting karaoke track is mono - there doesn't seem to be a way to preserve the stereo information. SteveBaker (talk) 02:05, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Twelve Angry Men

Is there a website which can provide information about in-depth character analysis of the book, 'The Twelve Angry Men'?

Thanks in advance. Fuzzymugger (talk) 05:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I had tried searching on Google for a while before I came here and asked but I could not find any results.

Fuzzymugger (talk) 06:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

You may have encountered problems because it was originally a play, not a book. Review 12 Angry Men and look at Twelve Angry Men (disambiguation) for its various adaptations. There are some sources for the material that should lead you to more in-depth analysis. --Eustress (talk) 06:18, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Opening background tabs of Google in Opera.

Hi,

I am not sure where to put this question, so, if anyone thinks this is the wrong place or something, please feel free to move it appropriately. Thanks.

Anyways, so I use the Opera internet browser and I am quite fond of it. But theres this really annoying problem. Whenever I open tabs of some websites, in the background (websites like Google and all the services of Google), even if I open them in the background, they'll stay in the background for a second and then it'll automatically open up. Its really annoying because I tend to open a lot of background tabs at once (while browsing photographs in an album or something) and they dont stay in the background, and I have to keep going back to my original page everytime. And this problem started appearing about a month or two ago I think. Can anyone tell me how to fix this? Does this happen only in Opera or the other browsers as well. And please dont ask me to change my browser, I quite like mine. :-P Thanks!

Jayant,19 Years, India • contribs 12:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

That behavior is probably caused by javascript in the offending pages. You can disable "raising of windows" under Tools->Preferences->Advanced->Content->Javascript Options to prevent any page from taking over the screen, or you can disable javascript manually on the offending site(s) with right-click->"Edit Site Preferences"->Scripting. – 74  13:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It works! Awesome. Thanks a lot! I owe you one. :-) Jayant,20 Years, India • contribs 13:40, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Just for future reference, questions like this are normally asked at the Computing Reference Desk. Thanks, Genius101^Guestbook 21:02, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

why is gold valuable?

My question is why is gold valuable? It has some limited practical applications in things like electronics, but gold seems to have some sort of inherent value not related to practical applications. Any time I ever ask someone this question, the answer I get is that gold is valuable because it has always been valuable, but that is a circular argument. Any insight into the matter? 65.167.146.130 (talk) 20:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It is valuable because people value it. Sorry, but that's the only reason anything is valuable. You'd have to ask each person in turn or realize the obvious, I'm afraid. I like it because it's pretty. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:31, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

z

So basically what you are saying is that there is no real reason gold is valuable, it is just some sort of economic bubble? 65.167.146.130 (talk) 20:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

No more than anything is a bubble. "Value" is something people assign a thing empirically. We can form theories about why one thing is more valuable than another, but the only way to quantify a thing's value is to sell it at auction. You seem to be saying that there is such a thing as intrinsic value, and I can't think of anything that has that except food, whose price is set by supply and demand like everything else. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:47, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I suppose the best answer is its relative scarcity and the effort required in obtaining it. --Ericdn (talk) 20:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I partially agree with you Ericdn, but scarcity alone does not assign value. I could make a one of a kind piece of sculpture, but as I am no artist, there would be no demand for it, thus no value. I guess the main question I am asking then is why gold is in such demand, and the only answer I ever seem to get is because it is valuable. Demand drives value, if value drives the demand of gold, then we have circular reasoning and massive confusion for me. 65.167.146.130 (talk) 21:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Gold is valuable today for precisely those non-practical reasons you mentioned. See gold#history. Gold was the first metal prehistoric people manipulated regularly. It is likely early people came to value it because it is a metal yet it is easy to work into jewelry and ceremonial objects using small amounts (gold plating or foil), was relatively easy to get ahold of because it can be surface mined in pure form from placer deposits (not because it was rare!), and has a nice looking color, is shiny, and doesn't tarnish or rot. Gemstones, pretty minerals, and stone were more difficult to work with because they required appropriate hard cutting and polishing tools. Clay was fragile and could break. Wood would rot over time. Dyes and the organics they were applied to eventually lost their color due to oxidation, lack of color fastness, or rot. Gold has a whole lot of alluring characteristics that other workable materials available to prehistorics lacked, so it isn't surprising gold became valuable to them. 152.16.253.109 (talk) 21:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Gold has useful electrical and medical properties. --S.dedalus (talk) 21:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

But, gold was valuable before those uses were discovered. The questioner wanted to know why gold became valuable in the first place. 152.16.253.109 (talk) 21:47, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

And why are bits of paper valuable to people if they have been deemed "money" by the government? Because that pile of money can be exchanged for goods or services. Similarly, I think a lot of why nations (and their citizens) consider gold valuable is the now rarely practiced idea of the Gold standard. Under this system, which was followed in the US until Nixon ended it in 1971, a currency was worth a designated amount of gold. So people valued gold for the same reason they value currency, it is recognized as a medium others will respect and allow them to use to purchase other goods and services. Gold is no longer formally tied to currencies (or vice versa), however people still accept that gold is a valid form of "convertible wealth" and value it as they would a big pile of money. Only it's better cause it's also shiny and stuff. TastyCakes (talk) 21:56, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It was used for the gold standard because it was valuable, though. You have cause and effect the wrong way around. --Tango (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Historical reasons made gold a "precious metal" while others such as copper and lead weren't, due likely to its scarcity and its pleasing properties as you pointed out. But as far as why it is valuable today, it is entirely a matter of the confidence that the owners (and non-owners) have in it, just like a government currency. And its choice as a modern median of wealth is somewhat arbitrary, as the existence of the Silver standard shows. One could similarly ask "why are diamonds the most valuable gems", when they are more common than other gems such as emeralds? It is exactly the same reason as gold, they are recognized as valuable by enough people to make it a legitimate currency (not in the formal sense of the word). People know they can trade them for goods and services and so are willing to buy or sell it accordingly. It is a giant "confidence game" if you want to look at it that way, only with diamonds it is decades old rather than millenia old. And investors in gold should, in my opinion, understand that, like silver, confidence in precious metals can be lost and its corresponding value drop precipitously. I should probably also mention tulips, but I think I'm rambling enough already. TastyCakes (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this line of discussion would find Official gold reserves interesting. As has been mentioned, the US currency is no longer held 1:1 for gold, but it maintains significant reserves from the Bretton Woods system. Central banks still see value in backing their fiat currencys with gold.NByz (talk) 05:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and it should be mentioned that most Central Banks without large gold reserves back their currency with US Dollar reserves, which are primarily backed by gold. NByz (talk) 05:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Among other things, it became associated with royalty, and rulers would acquire as much of it as they could, thus denying it to the common masses. The same was true of certain colours - purple, for example. The colour of gold was the thing that attracted people to in the first place, imo, regardless of any practical uses it might have had. It is intrinsically attractive to humans, because most humans are primarily visual; and because it's rare, it's therefore intrinsically valuable. If it were abundant, everyone would still have a whole pile of it because it brightens up a room. But it would be freely available, or could be purchased at a much lower cost than it has today. It's a bit like music: it's intrinsically attractive to the human psyche. The combination of attractiveness and rarity does the trick. The same is true of diamonds, and gemstones generally. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Purple was a status symbol because the dye was very hard to make and so rare and so expensive. It was something of a Veblen good, I guess, so its value is rather strange. --Tango (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I recall that Palladium became about as expensive as gold for a while about 20 years ago. That might still be the case except for... oh,well. It now sells for about 1/5 the price of gold, about the same as before the the event. hydnjo talk 01:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't 20 years ago, but palladium spiked around 2001 after automotive regulations required catalytic converters, the main supplier of palladium became unreliable, and large automotive companies started stockpiling[13]. Things have since calmed down, and palladium has returned to a relative bargain. – 74  04:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Gold became valuable as a currency or instrument of trade because it was one of the first common (but not too common!) items that people encountered that didn't depreciate. Wood rots, clothes tear, iron rusts, even copper turns green (although bronze and copper coins were used). This gave it one of the first important characteristics as a useful currency: it acts as a good "store of value." Gold is also infinitely divisible, malleable (easy to form into standard sizes/weights, usually mixed at a fixed rate with another metal) and - by the time it was used as an international currency - was in relatively limited supply (however, whenever a new deposit was found, like the Aztecs, South Africa or California, significant inflation occurred). This last point ensured that the domestic citizenry could't counterfeit the currency at will.

As for why gold retains its' value, industrial, dentistry and jewelry uses have already been mentioned. The fact is, as long as Central Banks keep using it as a reserve (not 1:1 anymore, however) it will hold its value as a currency.NByz (talk) 02:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand why that is. If people finally realise that jewellery is dumb (yeah, I know: big if) and if we stop using gold for its other uses, will it still retain its value as long as it's used as a reserve? Would central banks continue using it if they are the only source of demand? They'd have to continue purchasing it to keep its value up. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Although I personally agree with both the "Jewelry is dumb" comment and that logic dictates that gold shouldn't retain it's value in that situation, I have to say the answer is yes. The line between a currency and a fiat currency isn't too clear. They both provide similar value. Everyone sees the value of having something that we will all accept as a means of exchange. Otherwise trade would be dependent on what economists call the "double coincidence of wants" - or someone wanting to trade something that they consider to be of the exact same value as something that someone else wants to trade.

A currency has to be scarce, constant and not easily counterfeited. But, even if the US dollar was suddenly not backed by the "full faith and credit of the US government", I think something similar would be retained in its place.

The current thinking in monetary economics is that currencies only retain their value if time is infinite. A currency retains it's value as an instrument of savings (vs. a "medium of exchange" or "unit of account") to you if it's reasonable to assume that it's going to be valuable to the next generation of people. And so on... And so on... As soon as a finite limit is introduced, agents can no longer make this assumption, and the currency loses all value except as a consumable good. Gold included. (For an EXTREMELY TECHNICAL review of these ideas, I recommend Modeling Monetary Economics, 2nd Edition by Bruce Champ and Scott Freeman.)

Most of every currencies' value comes from the fact that others will likely find it valuable in the future. For example, dollar bills are only valuable to you because you can trade them to someone else who will find them valuable for a similar trade in the future.

Well... Most of us don't use gold in this way. But Central Banks do. As long as some central banks find it valuable in the future, all will today. The fact that the average Joe can enjoy this increased demand is just collateral.

Will it last forever? Tough to say. But society has shown that it needs something to act in this capacity. And I suspect something always will.NByz (talk) 10:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

If anyone is looking for a good read on the subject, BTW, I recommend Niall Ferguson's The Ascent of Money. NByz (talk) 02:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Gold became valuable pretty much universally because it is widespread but rare everywhere, as as a metal it was an good store of value and because it reflects yellow light it would have evoked the sun and fire to all of its discoverers. It was only useful decoratively helped make a statement like "Hey, I've got so much stuff I can waste some of it acquiring a shiny cup/statue/sword at a high cost due to the difficulty involved in obtaining the metal". Thousands of years ago, nothing you made could have required gold so why use it? These displays of extravagance and worship reaffirmed its value continually and its divisibility meant it was great to barter with, while the easiness of calculating the precise amount you had was useful too. From there it pretty much hits a cycle of being valuable simply because people made a choice to value the shiny pretty metal over any of the other ones. If you imagine you've never seen light from anything but the fire or the sun and you see a hundred pounds of gold in the blazing sunshine then you can see why people were impressed. 86.8.176.85 (talk) 05:39, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I heard this years ago on a TV documentary series, probably either The Ascent of Man with Jacob Bronowski or Civilisation with Kenneth Clark, and I believe I am remembering the line verbatim: "We value gold because it is scarce; the ancients valued gold because it is incorruptible." It retains its shine and color without rusting like iron or tarnishing like silver, and is even immune to most acids. --Anonymous, 05:30 UTC, February 18, 2009.

It's Bronowski - in the book it takes the form "To us gold is precious because it is scarce; but to the alchemists, all over the world, gold was precious because it was incorruptible." (page 136) DuncanHill (talk) 15:20, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Just thought of something that might show how value can become widespread through the appreciation of a significant/powerful minority. In US prisons, the previous store of value, cigarettes, is now outlawed and has been replaced by mackerel, which is valued by bodybuilders who want protein. Presumably the huge guys with the bulking arms have some influence in prison... 86.8.176.85 (talk) 05:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

That is a great story. I know plenty of economics nerds who would love to mention that to their undergrad classes. Thanks!! NByz (talk) 10:45, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Swimming in the ocean, and keys/belongings

If you're at a swimming pool, you simply take a locker key, place your belongings in it, and attach the pin to your shorts or whatever when you go swimming. Also if it does get lost, there are people there to help, and there is only a finite distance to the depth of the pool therefore can be removed, also they will have a spare key for the locker. All safe and done.

But what about swimming in the ocean? What if you and another person or group of people want to go swimming in the sea? Is it necessary to have one person watch over your keys/belongings? I know it's not a good idea to go swimming on the beach alone, but say it's at a crowded beach where you feel your belongings may get stolen if no one watches over them, but you are also alone and swimming only a small distance into the sea, so it's safe, yet you cannot attach your keys to anything or give them to anyone to hold, especially if your room your are renting's landlord is not there to take your keys. What then?--XerxesK (talk) 23:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Booby trap your belongings almost-instinct 23:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Depending on the beach, there may be lockers or other secure storage available. Generally though, you shouldn't bring your valuables to the beach in the first place. If you have a (secure) vehicle you could lock any other keys in it and just take your vehicle key with you (it's also a good idea to have a spare key, either with a friend or locked in the vehicle). It is slightly more complicated if your vehicle keys have keyless entry buttons built-in, but you can probably use a keyholder/lockbox to safely hold those keys. Still, you shouldn't need more than one or two keys (leave the rest at home), and you can easily take those with you (just make sure they are securely stowed). – 74  00:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Travellers tend to have a waterproof bag or small, threaded, container into which money, keys, watch and sometimes even a driver's licence and passport can be secured. This is then tied around the waist. I have a hard, red, plasctic "box" about four inches tall, by two inches deep, by three inches wide that is strung with a cord for my waist. (It tends to bob up in a distracting fashion if you are male, or slight of bust, so you have to keep it snug.) I also have been known to put such valuables into a double, zip-lock, plastic bag, removed the air and then put the bag in a waist money-belt. You just rinse out the belt when you get back to where you are staying in order to remove the salt. (This was obviously an ocean swim.) My book and my towel just have to take their chances. ៛ BL ៛ (talk) 01:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Just checked my wayback_machine and recall that the beach lockers had a key attached to a wristband. hydnjo talk 01:35, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Something like this [14] is useful for car key, a credit card and some pocket change. Everything else should be in the hotel safe or watched by a trusted friend. Depending on where the beach is cars and trunks are not safe. If you have to leave something inside make sure it's not exposed. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 06:04, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

February 18

Dedicated Sci Fi browsing

I hate fantasy. I really do. Not just because I don't like it but because I love science fiction and I have yet to find anyplace to browse books online in a systematic fashion that doesn't mix them together, and because it's so easy to churn out dragons and elves and orcs and magic, there's ten times as much fantasy which I must slog through in order to find a decent science fiction book to buy. I go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble and scroll through page after page; every fifteenth or twentieth book is sci fi—it's so difficult to browse in this fashion. Anyone have any solution? Anyplace that doesn't blithely mix them together, as if they're similar at all?--70.19.73.184 (talk) 04:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It may be worth considering that, when the relevant professional writers' association as well as the two major awards aren't segregated, the distinction is not so clear-cut as you describe. At what point of fantasy/sci-fi blend do you lose interest? At what point does a fictional element transition from being science-fictiony to fantastical? At what point is a sufficiently advanced magic indistinguishable from science? And most importantly, will anyone else's criteria match yours? If you really want to find good books, I recommend you continue to browse through the entire collection. Personally, I find it simple to quickly perform my own categorization. On the other hand, I'm not certain what method you're using that requires you to "scroll through page after page" to determine what a book is about from a high-level perspective. Alternately, consider starting with the Nebula or Hugo Awards for Best Novel (or the list of joint winners) and go from there. Just watch out for the ones that are fantasy. — Lomn 05:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Following EC: Just subscribe to Analog. Google books by authors whose stories you liked there, or just go with their recommended reading list. You can also search with a combination of certain keywords at Amazon (e.g interstellar or hyperdrive). That should narrow things down. Befriending the Librarian at your local public library or doing a "bookstore run" and skimming through their offerings may also work. (You can usually tell fantasy from sci-fi by the artwork on the cover and authors rarely do both. Forum or chat room members at websites for si-fi authors will also be happy to recommend other things they liked. List of science fiction authors says it's mixed, but also might offer a starting point.76.97.245.5 (talk) 05:17, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I think you've been reading the wrong fantasy. Sure there are a lot of re-workings of the LOTR, but fantasy goes much further than that. Michael Moorcock, Terry Pratchett, Tom Holt, Piers Anthony (Apprentice Adept is one of the better mixtures of SF/Fantasy), Thomas Anstey Guthrie (F. Anstey), Edward Plunkett, 18th Baron of Dunsany (Lord Dunsany), Harlan Ellison, Philip Jose Farmer, Neil Gaiman and Guy Gavriel Kay are all fantasy authors that turn out high quality material that is nothing like the mass produced stuff that most people believe is all there is to fantasy. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 05:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You all have it wrong, believing I am a beginning reader. I have read thousands and thousands of science fiction books. I think with a few exceptions I have read every Hugo, Nebula and Saturn winning book since the 1950s through today as well as most of the nominees. Science fiction and fantasy are quite distinct, and trotting out Clarke's "indistinguishable from magic" does not change books extrapolating science concepts into books about magic. They are as different as can be. Sure, there are some authors who one can be said to mix the two, but very few and most fantasy is very clearly so. And yes, I have read all the leading lights in Fantasy as well as most of the books by every famous sci fi authors you can name who have also written fantasy. I've read Moorcock and Pratchett and as for Anthony, well I liked Macroscope and got a kick out of Battle Circle many moons ago and a few others have merit, but he is such a misogynist. Anyway, been there done that. Farmer is a good example of someone who writes some fantasyish books but whose sci fi is distinctly sci fi (a better example might be the wonderful Jack L. Chalker). I happen to love Farmer, but again, this is old news; I've read his entire catalogue. You didn't realize it, and my original post does not give you enough to go on which is my error, but you're trying to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs. I know the genres inside and out and what I'm looking for is the actually new to buy. Most fantasy books and science fiction books are actually marked as the one or the other on their spines. So while there are rare exceptions, most are indeed patently in one category, even identified as such, and yet there's no way to search that I've found. The only suggestion above (thank you all for trying) that actually addresses the search issue is to place a science fiction concept in the search as a delimiter such as interstellar. It's a good thought but the method is so crude—too crude to be useful—such a delimiter that does pretty much exclude fantasy, but also cuts out 90% of science fiction as well. Unfortunately, The Lord of the Rings movies and Harry Potter (shudder) have instituted a fantasy boom. Don't get me wrong, I loved the Lord of the Rings (probably before many of you were born) but its fostered a giant cottage industry that leaves science fiction books buried liked needles in a haystack when searching or recent science fiction releases at least at all websites I have tried.--70.19.73.184 (talk) 13:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 70.19 to some extent. There is absolutely a gray area between Sci-Fi and fantasy, but the large majority of the content falls cleanly into one category or the other. I'm not sure how you'd organize a bookshelf on that continuum and still be able to find what you're looking for, though. (Especially since some of the best content would be in that twilight area. It's mostly the hacks that wind up at the extremes.)

I suspect that the easiest way to organize it so that 70.19 is happy at the book store would be to break it into two sections : "Sword and Sorcery", "Other Sci-Fi/Fantasy".

While we're at it, we could make the fantasy readers happy and divide into three shelves. "Sword and Sorcery", "Space Operas", "Other Sci-Fi/Fantasy". I'd go to that bookstore. APL (talk) 14:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I need to know about post mail tracking numbers

What all letters mean in post mail traking nombers?!

for example:

LC733007845US

Lc ?!

I want to know all the meaning of the first two letters in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.93.18.60 (talk) 09:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The first two digits usually indicate the type of number or mail it is. For example, RR is for registered mail. From what I've read, the LC number is used exclusively for customs tracking and is not something and ordinary customer has any use for Nil Einne (talk) 09:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Strange obsessive-compulsive person

'Sup RD, long time no see, for I have been on holiday in London. Whilst visiting the National Gallery I was distracted by what appeared to be the noise of a clicking pen. Upon turning around I discovered a Japanese woman clicking the pen very systematically while wearing a surgical mask. My mother said she's seen a lot of these people around and all Japanese. Is this a specific disorder or type of person and is it exclusively a Japanese thing or what? Apologies for lack of detail. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 11:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Could be something along the lines of Paris Syndrome, a form of Stendhal syndrome. Lanfear's Bane | t 12:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't say if the pen-clicking is a cultural thing, but wearing the surgical mask is a normal occurance in Japan. Japanese people often wear them to protect themselves from pollen in hay fever times and to prevent spreading germs if they are sick. Laenir (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest that pen-clicking was more a sign of nervousness - which would fit with the alien environment that has been presumed. As George Eliot says, "Do we not wile away moments of inanity or fatigued waiting by repeating some trivial movement or sound, until the repetition has bred a want, which is incipient habit?". - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 15:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Egg Whites

I have a recipe for the cookie "whoopie pies" and for the filling it calls for raw egg whites mixed with shortening and sugar. It does not call for cooking. Is it ok to eat raw egg whites???170.232.128.11 (talk) 13:21, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Although it is possible for Salmonella to be in both the while and the yolk of the egg, the white does not readily support bacterial growth. I'd avoid if you are serving to the very young or old or people whose immune systems are compromised.--14:09, 18 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.73.184 (talk)

Or pregnant people.86.197.41.41 (talk) 15:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)DT

Here, indicates the filling is cooked, followed from the article - whoopie pie. Lanfear's Bane | t 15:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)