Talk:Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949

About.Com Article

So which came first, this article or the one at about.com which is exactly the same?

If you scroll to the bottom of that page you will see "This is the "GNU Free Documentation License" reference article from the English Wikipedia" Dwyatt 101 08:00, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the House of Commons does not hold supremacy in the UK and certainly not within the Commonwealth or British Isles. From the two houses, the House of Lords is the highest house with the justices and magistrates power (with a greater power to create legislation through case law, than government.). All bills and acts must be accepted and ratified by the House of Lords. Further to this, is the supremacy of the constitutional documents, of which the parliament act or any act of parliament is certainly not one. It is my understanding that all acts of parliament exist in accordance with the signing of Magna Carta, secondly documents such as Magna Carta and British Law Land documents are all supreme sources of power in the British constitution which succeed the power of House of Commons. Further to this, the Protestant (not anglican) Church of England, with the supreme power to inaugurate a King/ Qu()een, is the supreme power awarding body as the nation is deemed by constitution to be given of the rights of God. Quite a lot of paper work to do and quite a few bodies to anull if you would like to make the house of commons supreme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.68 (talk) 07:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Referring to this document of the Government of the UK I doubt that the Temperance (Scotland) Act 1913 has been introduced with a Parliament Act. Can somebody please check this issue and change the article if necessary? -- Umaluagr 12:49, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See page 9 of that document:

"The procedure prescribed by the Parliament Act 1911 was used in one other case, that of the Temperance (Scotland) Bill 1913."

That document is mentioned in the References section on the article page - it was a source for my additions on 16 September. (PS - it is helpful to sign and date comments by adding ~~~~ at the end. I've done it for you.) -- ALoan (Talk) 12:46, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is basically correct. But it was no Parliament Act, because the bill received royal assent with the agreement of the Lords in the second session. In my opinion it is just a Parliament Act, when the bill passes through without the approval of the Lords.

Further on in this paragraph you can read: "All these Bills were rejected by the House of Lords in the first session, subsequently certified by the Speaker under the Parliament Acts and sent to the Lords, but then received Royal Assent in the final session with the agreement of the Lords as a result of compromise amendments." In this case the Temperance (Scotland) Act should be listed in the threats for a Parliament Act.

I am writing on the German article for the Parliament Act, so I am happy if you can give me some input on that issue, so that I can correct it there as well. --Umaluagr 10:56, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ah - thanks for the further comment, which makes perfect sense. I have corrected the article to deal with my mistake (mis-reading that document, I thought the end of that paragraph referred only to the later two bills, not the earlier one too, but I see that I was wrong). -- ALoan (Talk) 12:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Invoking the Parliament Acts"

To talk about "invoking the Parliament Acts" may be a little misleading: it seems to imply the active taking of certain discretionary steps. However, section 2(1) of the Act, quoted on page 3 of SN/PC/675, makes it look like the operation is automatic (provided of course that all relevant conditions are met by the Bill), and that the Bill "shall ... be presented" for Royal Assent "unless the House of Commons direct to the contrary". So for a government to "threaten to use the Parliament Acts" means something like "we will not ask the Commons to direct to the contrary [and will oppose any such motion if proposed]". It is a subtle point, and I have not changed the article. I do not have access to the full text of the Acts. It would appear that the Speaker still has to certify the Bill: see the statement corresponding to footnote 13 on page 6 of SN/PC/675 and the bullet point corresponding to footnote 68 on page 16 of SN/PC/675. As with the certification of money bills, it is the Speaker and not the government who is invested with this particular power. The Speaker should, of course, himself be directed by the will of the House of Commons. -- G Colyer 19:21, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See the end of this BBC News story. -- G Colyer 20:52, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I too am unhappy about the usage "invoking the Parliament Acts". I have read through the text of the acts carefully and it is quite clear (they are remarkably clearly drafted) that the acts come into play automatically unless the Commons takes action to stop them doing so. This means that nobody really "invokes" the act, rather they refrain from stopping their effect. Francis Davey 01:35, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's very common usage, even if technically incorrect. Even if Wikipedia indicates that the usage is incorrect, we shouldn't pretend it never exists. Fwiw, my understanding was that The Speaker had to certify the Bill for Royal Assent (without the Lords' agreement), which would imply that nothing is automatic — there is a conscious decision on the part of The Speaker to do so, irrespective of whether he's only doing so "by the will of the Commons", n'est ce pas? — OwenBlacker 12:52, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

My interpretation (for what its worth -- but I am a practising barrister) of the Act is that the Speaker is bound to certify the bill as law if the preconditions are met. Not that it would be justiciable if he didn't. Francis Davey 01:12, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't think Wikipedia need even indicate that the usage is incorrect, just avoid using it.

What is the procedure normally used to convey the Commons' approval prior to Royal Assent? Do all bills normally terminate their passage in the Lords, regardless of where they begin? This "certification" by the Speaker may (for all I know) be normal procedure. In any case, it is not the government that "invokes" the Parliament Acts even in this weak sense. G Colyer 19:41, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

German featured atricle

Outrageous! The equivalent page is is a featured article (Exzellente Artikel) in the German wikipedia! Look at their lovely diagrams! Something must be done... -- ALoan (Talk) 21:21, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1949 act

this article needs background on why it was needed then - and why it was then never used! Morwen - Talk 17:29, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is some good background discussion in the judgments of the High Court [1] and Court of Appeal [2] (which I have been reading on the train!). -- ALoan (Talk) 17:56, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

INteresting stuff. Have added some material from there. Morwen - Talk 09:50, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Salisbury convention

This article probably needs to mention the Salisbury convention, and whether the post-1949 acts were pushed through due to violations of this by the Lords. I believe fox hunting was in Labour's manifesto, dunno about the other stuff. Morwen - Talk 17:46, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

History of the Act

The article claims that the PM obtained the permission of the King to create new peers to force the bill through. However, the E2 writeup on this subject claims that merely the 'threat' of going to the king was enough to force it through. My friend's Law textbook (ISBN 0-406-95952-8) claims that the Edward VII and George V were reluctant to create new peers.

Does anyone have any reliable sources as to what exactly happened in this conflict? Fragglet 19:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Parliament Act challenge

I have removed the text:

The Countryside Commission and various individuals also brought legal actions on human rights grounds, that the Hunting Act was a disproportionate, unnecessary and illegitimate interference with their rights, and under European Community law, that the Act infringed the rights to free movement of goods, workers and to provide and receive services.[3] These claims were dismissed by the Administrative Court (The Countryside Alliance and others v. H.M. Attorney General and others [2005] EWHC 1677 (Admin), 29 July 2005), but permission was granted for an appeal to the Court of Appeal, and an appeal is under way.

because it has nothing to do with the Parliament Act. Such information (apart from the reference to the non existent Countryside Commission) should be on the Hunting Act 2004 page. MikeHobday 14:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. You also removed the short discussion of the size of the panel in the HL decision - did you think it was not relevant either? -- ALoan (Talk) 22:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought the section was over long and the detail too much for a relatively short, albeit important incident. Do you disagree? I don't feel strongly. MikeHobday 07:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Invalid?

"The consequences are unclear if the 1949 Act were to be ruled invalid. Certainly, the Hunting Act 2004 and the War Crimes Act 1991 would be then invalid."

Could someone explain why this is the case? If the monarch has given assent to the bill, does it manner that it was created in an inproper manner? If I don't get a reply, I think I'll remove the 'Certainly', and make the statement more uncertain. Dmn € Դմն 13:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It certainly does matter. It is widely accepted that the Queen in Parliament is sovereign - that is, the Queen acting with the consent of both Houses of Parliament. The first Parliament Act provided a mechanism to pass Acts without the consent of the House of Lords (quite how this is rationalised in constitutional terms is a matter for debate - delegating power or redefining Parliament or whatever - IIRC, there is some interesting discussion of the effect of the Parliament Acts in the speeches delievered in the House of Lords). If the 1949 Act were held to be invalid, then it would be an easy matter to see that Acts passed in reliance upon its terms would be invalid too. Quite what it means for a purported Act of Parliament to be invalid is left as an exercise for the reader! -- ALoan (Talk) 13:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Since the House of Lords has ruled that the Act is valid, there seems little point in keeping the paragraphs about what would have happened if it was invalid. I presume that part was written before the final judgement was made, when the court case was still a current event. I'm going to levae this for a few days and then if no-one objects I'm going to remove it, as it seems to me that this kind of speculation is not encyclopedic (or at least not anymore). Richard75 13:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Done.Richard75 14:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"other types of bills"

I have a question on the content:

The Parliament Act 1911: "imposed a maximum legislative delay of one month for "money bills" (those dealing with taxation) and two years for other types of bill" ; and

The Parliament Act 1949: "Parliament Act 1949 (12, 13 & 14 Geo. 6. c. 103), which further limited the power of the Lords by reducing the time that they could delay bills, from two years to one<--- Which "bill" does it refer to? the "money bills" or "other types of bills" (as stated in the Parliament Act 1911)?

I would be grateful for your answer. scarlett_tong 15:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The 1949 Act decreased the time that the Lords could delay non-money bills from 2 years to 1 year by amending section 2 of the 1911 Act. The provisions relating to money bills in section 1 were left the same. See the text of the [amended] Act here - the amendments are in [square brackets]. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed text

I have removed thye following text:

However, the Liberal government did not follow through with reform of the House of Lords, and the composition of the Lords remained much the same for another 50 years, until life peers were introduced in 1958. Despite further calls for change, the position remained the same until the Labour government elected in 1997 took the first steps to reform the Lords. The House of Lords Act 1999 reduced the number of hereditary peers entitled to attend and vote in the Lords; however, as of 2006, there are no directly-elected members of the second chamber. However, the small number of remaining hereditary peers were elected by a vote of all the hereditary peers in the lead up to the reform (including those who were to lose their seats).

because it doe snot belong as "background to the 1911 Act. Some of it may well belong elsewhere in the article. MikeHobday 08:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

A question

If House of Commons enactes a bill to abolish the House of Lords, can House of Commons use the Parliament Acts to bypass Lords' veto ?

Siyac 13:02, 23 Jan 2007 (UTC)

Yes. MikeHobday 12:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The Parliament Acts and constitutional change

One concern I have about the Parliament Acts is this: although the 1911 Act takes a self-denying ordnance on extending the life of a parliament, it says nothing about entrenching this safeguard.

The limit on the life of a parliament (and government) is set at five years by the Septennial Act 1715 (as amended by the 1911 Act). Section 2(1) of the 1911 Act forbids its use on any Bill intended to extend this limit, But it would be quite possible, following the precedent of the 1949 Act, for a government to stay in power indefinitely first by re-wording s. 2(1) appropriately, leaving it free to set up a dictatorship. In other words, any government since 1911 could, in theory, have passed, say, an Emergency Powers Act of Self-Perpetuation.

Do contributors believe that this point is made strongly enough on the article? Steve-o 16:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's too theoretical to need space in the article. It might make an interesting footnote if you have a reliable third-party source that makes the same supposition. (Anyway, there's bound to be an alternative method laying around to subvert the intent of the law: an Order-in-Council or something equally undemocratic) Yomangani^talk 17:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

There was some discussion on this very point in the court decisions in the Jackson case following the enactment of the Hunting Act 2004 (follow the links to the decisions of the High Court, Court of Appeal and House of Lords for further edification). There was some discussion of whether the Act could be construed as including an implied restriction preventing the Act from being used to amend itself to remove that sort of safeguard (although that is precisely what happened with the 1949 Act, together with special tweaking of the "sessions" of Parliament to ensure the provisions of the 1911 Act were met) or to make other wide-ranging changes to the British constitution. Typically, the courts refused to give a definitive answer to this question, as it was not necessary for the case before them. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Septennial Act and general elections

I wanted to explain a minor amendment I made to the first section. Technically, the Septennial Act never set a maximum time between general elections. Indeed, the general election of May 1997 was more than five years after the one of April 1992. What the legislation does is mandate that any Parliament will automatically dissolve the day after the fifth anniversary of the day it was first called. In practice, each Parliament is called within a few days of being elected and a new election is called immediately on Parliament being dissolved (and the campaign is usually just a few weeks), this sets the maximum time between elections as just over five years (as with the 1992 Parliament), but this is not statutory. The Triennial Act means that a new Parliament must be called within three years of the old one being dissolved, not the few weeks that is normal these days. Of course, a government that did not call an election when Parliament was dissolved would not be able to legislate, and its right to levy taxes would lapse within a year. Qlangley (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC).

The title of this page

I think that this page should be moved to Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949 (currently a redirect) since that is the correct collective title of these two Acts and avoids confusion with the new article Parliament Act (this is a list) and with other "Parliament Acts", such as the Parliament Act 1660. James500 (talk) 13:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, Parliament Act 1911 and Parliament Act 1949 are now articles. James500 (talk) 17:45, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Unless someone raises an objection to this, I intend to effect the page move described above in the immediate future. James500 (talk) 18:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)