- MSK-008_Dijeh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|AfD)
Several articles were listed in this AfD at once; let it be said that I am contesting the outcome of the deletion of the MSK-008_Dijeh and RMS-106_Hi-Zack; the other articles were indeed unsourced and with little or no real world impact that I could ascertain. Anyway. These articles were nominated for deletion due to being "unsourced and non-notable fancruft with original research". Upon discovering this AfD, I have sourced the relevant articles including specific citations of "original research" from official or semi-official sources (quite excessively, I might add) and was presently re-writing the jumbled text of the article itself when it was summarily deleted. I and others in favor of keeping the article believe that our rationale were given no weight or ignored entirely. This is demonstrated by the deletion of the article despite the original AfD criteria no longer being relevant, as well as the fact that apparently I and the other "keep" votes were "members of the project." I presume this is in reference to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gundam, which I am not a member of. Furthermore, I was not aware that being in a WikiProject, for whatever reason, was grounds for having one's rationale in an AfD debate be discarded. This AfD was conducted as a head count, and nothing more.MalikCarr 01:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn I pretty much agree with this. I helped provide some sourcing to two of the articles, which was objected to despite the fact that they followed the correct policies for such things as faras I can tell. When User:Malikcarr provided some examples of many other articles that have similar sourcing, his argument was simply brushed aside. Furthermore, I would like to point out that fancruft is an essay and not a policy, and thus is not a valid reason for nominating anything for deletion. Jtrainor 01:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn I was actually putting up my own entry on this for this, but you beet me to it. The reasoning that the closing admin used has me troubled. It appears that he discounted all of the keep or merge comments because they were from members of WP:GUNDAM. Why should comments from a WikiProject be discounted so long as they give solid arguments? At best, this appears to be to be a no consensus once the WP:GUNDAM comments are taken into account. --Farix (Talk) 01:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn I agree as well. The Dijeh and Hi-Zack are both intrinsic parts of the Zeta Gundam universe that have been fleshed out to extreme detail by the developers of the show, through liscences with video game corporations and technical manuals of Bandai produced model kits. There is plenty of reliable information and source material for these particular articles, and the only real argument against it could possibly be that it is taking too much attention to detail, and is unnecessary. This line of reasoning might as well say that individual articles on breeds of dogs are unnecessary, and that there should only be a central article on dog breeding on wikipedia. That is silly, and so is deleting these articles.149.142.119.170 01:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
- disregarded by closer- spa, IP, no unique arguments or sources offered in this opinionGRBerry
- Comment Deletion Review isn't a reargument of the AFD, but whether the closing admin reached the proper conclusion based on the comments of the AFD. If you read the comments above, you will see how we are disputing the reasoning the admin used in closing the AFD and not with the reasons behind the AFD. --Farix (Talk) 01:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment My intention was to point out that the closing admin could only have used the logic that the articles in question were trivial and unnecessary in reaching his conclusion to close the AFD, and that that sort of a logic should not have been brought to the matter. However, I primarily agree that whether or not one sides supporters are members of WP:GUNDAM should have nothing to do with the subject, as per User:MalikCarr's assertion. Also I'd like to apologize for the change of IP, I'm currently at my university and they don't always have a static IP.128.97.146.224 03:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
- Endorse perfectly reasonable closure. I didn't see any of the keep voters bringing forth multiple non-trivial published works about the "ENG-001 Estardoth" - because there aren't any. Now, without re-arguing the deletion debate, either point to such evidence having been presented, or just accept the deletion. - Tragic Baboon (banana receptacle) 02:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- disregarded by closer- doesn't appear to have read the review request, the example article isn't under reviewGRBerry
- Comment: If you had read my review request above, you would have found that I am only supporting the recreation of two articles. The one you mentioned is indeed unsourced, and until I can find references for it, it's likely going to stay deleted. With that in mind I believe you should re-evaluate your decision, since there -were- "multiple non-trivial published works" about the other items in question. MalikCarr 02:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. No policy reason was given for the deletion, and the original arguments did not even apply. Pretty straightforward. --- RockMFR 02:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - RockMFR's statement cannot be taken at face value, and quite practically are a deliberate misrepresentation of the truth. Policy reasons were VERY clearly given. It failed WP:RS since the only sources given were amazon.co.jp links to catalogues full of Gundams. It failed WP:OR in that most of the articles, outside of the existance of a line of toys, speculated on in-universe matters without a single source and utilized conjecture. It failed WP:V for most of the discussion. MalikCarr made good efforts on some of the articles to provide links to model kits and the like, which at least provided some verifiability, and he is only requesting recreation of the articles he attempted to improve. While I understand the frustration some members feel about the closure, and the reason given for the AfD's closure, I can't let statements like that stand. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 04:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - The "amazon.co.jp links to catalogues full of Gundams" source you are so eager to do away with contains all the relevant information pertinent to the mecha in question's in-universe statistics, operators and usage, as well as the factual design artists, and in some cases illustrates the creation of the mecha from rough drafts to what was approved for the animation. I apologize for not being able to provide an equivalent English-language publication, but that goes with the territory with this being a Japanese creation and all. Are you suggesting that, since it is not in English, it is not reliable? I'd really like to assume otherwise. Additionally, the "verifiability" claims as well as those with original research have been refuted for a majority of contested points, and once the two articles in question are restored, I will clean up the points that were not directly stated at sources such as Bandai America's GundamOfficial.com website. If that isn't reasonable enough, then the only conclusion I am left with is WP:IDONTLIKEIT since, at this point, the thing has been sourced to death. MalikCarr 05:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure The only weak issue I see here as a complaint with the closure, and that is afterall the only issue to review here, is that the AfD consensus was borderline and was closed about 8 hours before the 5-day recommended AfD discussion period. However, I don't see this issue as sufficient to overturn the closure. —Doug Bell talk 11:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure; AfD apparently closed per consensus/policy; 4⅔ days is "about five days". "Worse stuff exists" is on the WP:ILIKEIT list. If editors want an article on these, write one, but avoid {{OR}}, {{unref}}, and {{inuniverse}}. WP:FORGET is likely to help in writing new, compliant articles. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: As has been stated, this is not a discussion on the merits of the AfD; we are discussing the fact that it has been STATED for all the world to see that project membership is a valid reason for a closing admin to discount dissenting opinions. Last I checked, that was neither concensus nor policy. Additionally, it would seem that some in favor of maintaining this unjust action have not fully read my review request. I encourage individuals on both sides of this issue to fully read the request. MalikCarr 18:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Unforutnately, fly-by opiners that don't do their research are a too common phenomenon, though usually more in AFD than here (because usually few people are here, and the volume here is low). Hopefully the closing admin will disregard completely unrelated opinions, like saying article X should stay deleted when you asked for Y and Z undeleted. GRBerry 19:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Let's hope. MalikCarr 19:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment My concern is that the closing admin apparently devalued the comments of some of the editors based on a perceived association with a WikiProject in order to reach his conclusion that there was a consensus to delete. Unfortunately, the endorsers aren't touching this or explaining why this should be "ok". Doesn't the statement, "the fact that the only people who think these should be kept are those in the project, tips the balances" not ring any alarm bells? And if this was such a close call, why not give it the benefit of the doubt and give it the remaining 8 hours that it should have had? That makes the closing appear all the more dubious. At the very least, the AFD should be reopened to run the remaining 8 hours. --Farix (Talk) 19:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply: While I agree that that closing comment by the admin discounting the opinions based on project inclusion was inappropriate, I don't see that the conclusion reached regarding consensus is incorrect. —Doug Bell talk 21:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There seemed to me to be a consensus in the AfD for deletion. For example, "If a corporation can make vast profits off of plastic model kits of these "non-notable fancruft" that in and of itself is worth keeping" is tangential to notability and verifiability; "Looks like plenty of sources and references to me" seems none too sound either when there weren't, based on the version in the google cache, which is apparently what people at AfD saw. Arguments in favour of deletion on the basis of original research and lack of reliable sources seem passably well founded. The version I can see in the google cache contains no information that would be useful in helping to write a compliant article. (As with my previous comment, I base this on MSK-008 Dijeh and RMS-106_Hi-Zack only.) Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Again, if you had fully read my review request, it was stated that after the AfD was added, I had sourced and referenced the article appropriately, demonstrated that it was not "fancruft" and provided assertion of real-world notability. If the Google cache does not show these 11th-hour edits, I apologize. However, that is irrelevant. The point of this review request is to assert that the closing of the discussion and the assumed "concensus" was made in bad faith. The remaining bits of the article that contain "original research" will be fixed after it is restored. While I could simply make a new article from scratch, I will not allow a precedent to be set whereby dissenting opinions can be dismissed because some editors are part of a Wikipedia Projet (which, ironically, was in and of itself an incorrect statement). Membership should NOT be criteria for having one's opinion be any less valid or relevant. MalikCarr 23:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Addendum: Wait a minute, what do you mean, "when there weren't, based on the version in the google cache, which is apparently what people at AfD saw."? If they were viewing the Google cache of the article(s) in question, then their votes are in and of themselves invalid since the concerns raised in the AfD had been addressed appropriatley, and then some. Futhermore, what about multimillion dollar industry is "tangential" to notability and verifiability? If you want to verify it, go to any of the thousands of websites that sell plastic model kits of these items in question. I'll provide a few links for your further reference. Hobby Link Japan, Hobby Search (English version), Little Things. MalikCarr 00:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
*Endorse Deletion - "The point of this review request is to assert that the closing of the discussion and the assumed "concensus" was made in bad faith" : no proof of this has been shown. The asseration that the closing admin disregarded keep votes due to participating in Wikiproject is also not demonstrated. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 00:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Are you blind?! It's right there in the talk page! "the fact that the only people who think these should be kept are those in the project, tips the balances" Are we in the Ministry of Information here? Did that not happen? MalikCarr 01:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I'm afraid I must concur. It quite clearly shows that the closing admin disregarded the arguments of those who wanted to keep the article purely because of who they choose to associate with, rather than because said arguments are bad. Jtrainor 01:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I saw lots of good arguments for deletion, not a single one for keeping. He didn't disregard well reasoned arguments, he disregarded 3 ILIKEIT's from the WP the article was from when a bunch of other people with no stake in Gundam articles saw no reason to keep. To me, the only thing I can take from his statement is that the lack of any sort of argument outside of the WP particpants, along with the fact that no arguments were offered, made the deletion decision easy. I'm merely pointing out that you've said that this DRV came about due to a closure done in bad faith, and I do not see it. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 01:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength. I rectified all the criteria of the AfD, in spades, and that amounts to ILIKEIT? More importantly, "delete per nom" is a "good argument"? I give up. MalikCarr 02:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I haven't been with wikipedia long, but it doesn't take an expert to see that Elaragirl's assesment of the AFD is quite skewed.128.97.146.224 02:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
- Addendum: Just to let the numbers speak for themselves, I figured I'd save everyone the trouble of counting them off on the AfD itself. Of the six votes for "Delete," fully half of them were "delete per nom." Great arguments there, surely. Of the three votes for "Keep," one of them is a member of WP:GUNDAM. Contrary to popular belief, I am not a member of it, and as far as I know, neither is Jtrainor. I'm not sure of his motivations, but as far as I'm concerned, I just dislike injustice, and that's what we have here. On the quality of the "Keep" votes, Jtrainor added no less than eight references to Bandai source material from Amazon, which were discounted, and I added two to show that the article "asserts real-world notability" from lucrative sales of plastic model kits of the specific mechanics in question, and a third one to do away with the stark nativism of some delete votes to Bandai America's North American website, detailing the "fancruft" specific details of each mechanic in question. Of course, these are all not worth mentioning, because we are (not) members of WP:GUNDAM. I would like to thank you for showing your true colors, however, in the assertion that "having a stake in it" is grounds for your arguments to be dismissed. MalikCarr 02:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Why does it matter whether the keep comments came from WP:GUNDAM or not? In fact, I'm very troubled that you would say such a thing. The simple fact is that it shouldn't matter. And looking at the three keep comments, none of them appear to be of the WP:ILIKEIT nature either. As fore the delete comments, only the original nomination and your comment had any arguments behind them. One argument had an identity crisis of "delete or merge" (merge being a variety of "keep"). As for the rest, they were non-arguments that are really no better then any other argument described in WP:ATA. And in the end, the sourcing problems with two of the articles were being address, though under a hostile environment. --Farix (Talk) 03:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Sarcasm, Farix. The line about "not worth mentioning" was meant to be sarcasm. MalikCarr 03:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If I was commenting to you, I would have included one more indent. --Farix (Talk) 03:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- ....errr... whoops. Sorry about that. MalikCarr 03:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse the original closing decision - Deletion guidelines for administrators: Deciding whether to delete brings up two items relevant in this discussion: (i) Whether consensus has been achieved by determining a "rough consensus" (ii) Use common sense and respect the judgment and feelings of Wikipedia participants. My reasoning: The closing admin determine that the rough consensus was to delete. That appears to be the correct consensus. In other words, the debate was interpreted correctly by the closer. Thus, I endorse the original closing decision. The remaining issue seems to be whether the closing admin respected the judgment and feelings of Wikipedia participants. Even if the closing admin did not respect the judgment and feelings of Wikipedia participants, I do not believe that the remedy for this is to relist the article or overturn the original decision in view of a correctly interpreted debate. Thus, I maintain my endorsement for the original closing decision in view of administrator deletion guideline item (ii). -- Jreferee 02:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Unless I am mistaken, concensus is -not- to be based on a headcount, (EDIT: Seems I was right) but on the quality of the arguments given. Since Elaragirl has decided to bring up the issue of the "quality of argument," I see no reason why the practiced keep or delete by number of hands should be critera in this deletion review. Furthermore, do you honestly believe that fallacious allegations of membership in a Wikipedia Project should "tilt the balance" in an AfD debate? It may not be a WP (GROUPMEMBERSHIPISNOTADISCUSSIONPOINT, perhaps?), but I do not believe that that is a dynamic Wikipedia should endorse. Do you?
- Furthermore, I'm rather depressed at how few "endorse" votes have bothered to defend their points against concerns I and others have raised. Kudos to those who have, but it would seem that spirit of "quality of argument" is dead if only dissenting votes may be scrutinized and discounted. MalikCarr 02:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The closing admin (i) determined that the result of the consensus was delete and (ii) gave as "Reason for deletion": "the fact that the only people who think these should be kept are those in the project, tips the balances." The DRV request raised the concern that "our rationale were given no weight or ignored entirely." The AfD "Reason for deletion" includes the phrase "tips the balances." This tells me that the closing admin did give weight to all the rationales and did not ignore the rationales. As for the use of "per nom" concern raised outside of the DRV request, Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions states "if several people already have showed support for the nominator, adding nothing but a statement in support of the nominator will not contribute significantly to the conclusion that is made by the administrator closing the discussing." There were two "Delete per nom" arguments in the AfD. Guide to deletion shorthands indicates that per nomination, per nominator, or simply per nom means the user agrees with and wishes to express the same viewpoint as the user who nominated the article for deletion. Since two "Delete per nom" arguments do not exceed the several people threshold of Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, it would be appropriate for the two "Delete per nom" arguments to contribute significantly to the conclusion that is made by the administrator closing the discussing. -- Jreferee 16:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- With closing admin Blnguyen's additional explanation (below), I do not think he disrespect the judgment and feelings of Wikipedia participants. -- Jreferee 15:58, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Self-enodrse - I didn't throw out the project's votes, it was a borderline case, so I looked at the two groups, and if only the authors want to keep something, and nobody else does, this is an issue. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: One would think an admin would be considered to be in favor of his own deletion unless stated otherwise... MalikCarr 06:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Step 3 in the Steps to list a new deletion review is to inform the administrator who deleted the page about the new deletion review and invite him/her to participate in the deletion review. Blnguyen's participation in the deletion review is appropriate. Also, per Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Purpose, it is appropriate to first attempt to resolve any issue in discussion with the closing administrator before posting a deletion review request (e.g., courteously invite the admin to take a second look). -- Jreferee 17:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and re-AfD again from start or copypasted the previous AfD- Well, I have seen that the article may be merged or cleaned up, and also may need to be rewritten from start again, but the closing admin's argument is simply like "discrimination" though it may or may not his original intention. With respect to the closing admin, closing admin's argument is similar to "Well the only people want to keep the land is only the native people and people associated with it, lets we abolish the land". I assume and believe that closing admin intention is not this one, though. I am sorry if my comment here is not nice , especially to closing admin.Draconins 06:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Weak Endorse Consensus seems clear (evev excluding per nom "votes"). Sites offering an item for sale do nothing top establish notability (since the owners have a vested interest in their products). Still, the closing rational is poor and breaking up mass nominations when the arguments do not apply equally (even if they still apply) is generally a good idea. Eluchil404 07:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion, WP:GUNDAM notability rules do not override WP:N. If reliable secondary sources have not extensively and non-trivially covered the article subject, it is not real-world notable, and may be suitable for a Gundam-themed wiki (I'm sure there's one out there), but not here. Closing admin acted correctly in applying less weight to votes with evident bias, and more importantly, in evaluating the merits of the claims made (the fact that something is sold based on something else establishes its notability?) and acting accordingly. Seraphimblade 08:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion - valid closure within admin discretion, but without prejudice against recreation, if reliable sources can be found that support notability. There would be little point in undeleting in any case: from an encyclopedic standpoint there's nothing worth salvaging. Certainly if I was rewriting these articles I'd be cutting everything and starting from scratch, it's easier that way. Moreschi Request a recording? 08:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - and see [6] for an external attempt to influence this DRV. Moreschi Request a recording? 09:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Well, while I see some provocation to vote on this matter, I don't see totally external attempt to influence, rather most of them are angry with such AfD. Some even suggests to evacuate the Gundam from Wikipedia, which also what I feel recently. Though, I am sorry with Moreschi as the target. Well, for your information, many people nowadays also seems to be angry with many AfD in wikipedia, scattered in many internet forum, and that is an consequence of deletion or keeping an article. However, this Gundam AfD may be one of the big sparking problem since Gundam is a pop culture in eastern asian world and has strong fan base (this is one of the things which keeping Bandai as the world's class producer of toys). I have seen many discussion around recent Gundam AfDs on many anime-related forum, and this link is not even the big one. Draconins 10:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I give up. The status quo that has been created on Wikipedia, as of these most recent endorsements, establishes that there are no "reliable sources" for Gundam-related items. I and others have gone to exceedingly great lengths to satiate criteria for these and other article massacres, and have been overturned consistently. I have cited published, internet, corporate and even copyright-holder sources and provided a dizzying collection of assertions of notability, which are swiftly ignored with either a cursory glance or no acknowledgement whatsoever. Congratulations, gentlemen. Of course, I trust you will now take the torch to other articles that have "violated" these policies too, yes? Here's a delightfully unsourced article in dire need. Looks like "fancruft" to me, and I don't recognize half of the things on it, so it's certainly "non notable" as well. And since there is no systematic bias against Gundam in Wikipedia, I presume it will be crushed shortly as well. I am correct, yes? MalikCarr 10:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment It's a lost cause when some here declaring the Keep comments as meetpuppets even when there is no evidence so that those comments can be deminished. So I guess that means that closing admins are now permited to be predigest against certain Wikiprojects now. --Farix (Talk) 12:24, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion Per Seraphimblade's concerns about reliable sources. Also, it's perfectly reasonable to have suspicions about meat puppetry where Gundam-related articles are concerned. Here's JTrainor giving an offsite lesson in how to stack the votes in Gundam AfDs [7]. --Folantin 11:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Thank you for proving my point entirely. MalikCarr 11:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Your point being what exactly? --Folantin 12:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- That any and all references cited containing sources for Gundam-oriented material are not deemed "relevant" by Wikipedia's standards. Honestly, if Bandai America's website is not "reliable" I'm not really sure what is. MalikCarr 12:37, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I most definitely will not assume good faith with regards to creepy Internet stalker behaviour. Jtrainor 01:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. The AfD established a conensus to delete with two thirds of those who participated in the discussion presenting valid and reasonable arguments as to why the article does not live up to the standards of WP:V and WP:N, and the other third failing to present any evidence to the contrary. As I can see nothing to suggest a failure of process here or a failure on Blnguyen's part in closing the AfD, and as I have not seen any evidence presented after the closure to suggest that consensus would now be different with regard to the article, I cannot endorse restoring it. AmiDaniel (talk) 18:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: It just gets better and better. Yet again, "delete per nom" is a valid and reasonable argument, and providing reliable sources and clarifing or removing unsourced materaial is "providing [no] evidence to the contrary." Are we even reading the review request anymore? Or is it just a knee-jerk reaction to go "GUNDAM BAD" in this day and age? MalikCarr 21:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Please be civil. --Coredesat 22:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion per AmiDaniel. To the nominator: AFD is not a vote, and "delete per nom" is a valid argument. AFD concerns were never addressed by any of the keep arguments, and no third-party, non-trivial sources establishing notability were provided. Bandai is not a third-party source, and an online store selling a model is not a non-trivial source. The fact that you can buy a model of it does not fill WP:N, WP:V, or WP:FICT. --Coredesat 22:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment "AFD is not a vote, and "delete per nom" is a valid argument." <-- This is a contradiction of terms.128.97.146.224 23:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
- Comment: I would like to thank this anonymous poster for suggesting in succint terms what I have been trying to state. As the template thoughtfully provided states, "please note that this is not a ballot, but rather a discussion to establish a consensus amongst Wikipedia editors on whether a page is suitable for this encyclopedia." "Delete per nom" is a ballot, not a discussion. It establishes absolutely nothing, other than the user doesn't like the article. One cannot debate "delete per nom" because there is nothing to' debate, other than the original nomination, and in this situation, the original nominator did not engage in debate with the dissenting editors. If "concensus" is established because of "delete per nom" for a nomination whose argument in and of itself was not debated, then the policies on issues such as polling and what have you are henceforth obsolete. Under this system of mob rule, which has been endorsed by the deletionist camp, the only thing necessary for an article to be deleted is for one user with a bunch of friends to nominate it. Nine "delete per nom" votes against four "keep" votes with specific, detailed rationales amounts to "a conensus to delete with two thirds of those who participated in the discussion presenting valid and reasonable arguments" per User:AmiDaniel.
- A second criterion I have discovered in this deletion review, as well as the AfD itself, is that "delete" votes may be taken at face value, while "keep" votes are subject to intense scrutiny and weighted accordindly. If a "delete" vote is debated, it is irrelevent. On the other hand, a "keep" vote may be dismissed if it was related to the article, e.g. an editor who has worked on said article.
- A third criterion is that the deletionist camp is under no obligation to present their own rationale. In addition to the incredible power of "delete per nom," a deletionist simply need contradict a "keep" vote's points, and it is seen as well and good.
- The fourth and final criterion is that, due to this precedent, there are very few fictional things which can be "sourced" on Wikipedia. For example, let us consider... oh... say a space ship from Star Trek. A reliable source on this ubiquitous ship would be a published book of Star Trek ship references that includes details and explanations and what have you. Without this reference, the article is "Fancruft" since it cannot be confirmed that that is actually "how it is" with regards to the fiction in question. However, this book was either put out or endorsed by the copyright holder, which means it is not a "third party" source. Moving right along, we locate another book or guide, which was published unofficially by a second firm. Though this source is "third party," because it did not create the item in question, and holds no rights to it, it cannot be called "reliable." Well, now, we've got ourselves a Catch-22_(logic), haven't we? Because of the establishments made by the deletionist camp, which cannot be questioned, there are no sources for any items such as this.
- Gentlemen, this is why I find it so difficult to assume good faith and be civil and polite in these discussions. The opposing camp will not debate this issue, will not accept dissenting viewpoints, will dismiss evidence otherwise as being "not notable" "unreliable" or "cruft", and seems to have almost universal approval from the administration. What point is there in attempting to uphold the standards of Wikipedia through its various policies if these are misinterpreted or ignored entirely by a camp that goes forth to torch articles with the blessings of "the powers that be"?
- Normally, I despise quoting 4chan, but I'll make an exception this once: "In before "disregard above post, user violates WP:OR, WP:NOT and WP:RS"". Good day. MalikCarr 00:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "Per (user X)" is valid because it is a statement of agreeing with whoever user X happens to be. A vote would simply be "(vote)", with no rationale whatsoever, or an invalid statement by policy or guideline standards. "Plenty of sources" is not a reason to keep an article if none of the sources are reliable. If the article had some reliable sources, then it would be a different story and we may not even be having this discussion. --Coredesat 05:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Intriguing. Originally, I had used the term "deletionist camp" as a metaphor for what could be construed as an organized movement. However, upon further investigation (thank you Jtrainor) it would seem to me that some of the same players have been popping up in these AfDs. Notably:
- Delete - And who exactly would want this pile of nonsense? Delete , then take a look at dissassembling Wikiproject Gundam, which clearly isn't doing a lot of good in building a verifiable set of Gundam articles. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 09:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - Okay, this is ridiculous. No sources. No listing of even what episode or manga or whatever it appeared in. It's nothing but a page of made up stats. This is NOT an encyclopedia article, and tagging it for cleanup isn't going to make it one. If the rest of the articles in the Template are this bad, they need to be burnt with fire. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 03:24, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- And yet, when we source all of these claims appropriately, it still apparently needs "burning with fire" (sic).
- Delete per IslaySolomon, Edison, among others; if these are so culturally important, there should be third-party sources. There aren't. I don't share MER-C's disbelief, after all, Doug Bell (talk · contribs) already had to close the AFD from hell. Incredibly crufty {{inuniverse}} stuff, failing WP:N, WP:V, and a million miles from WP:WAF. Transwiki if so desired, always assuming that the Gundam wiki will take this stuff. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete per Edison, Proto, Sandstein, Moreschi. WP:V, WP:N and WP:INN refer. Apparently the well-intentioned editors who wrote WP:WAF wasted their time. Transwiki if anyone wants it. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete - unreferenced, no demonstration of notability. --Folantin 18:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- At the expense of sounding like a deletionst, "see above comments."
- Intriguing indeed. What's more, review of the user talk pages of some deletionists here, along with Moreschi and MER-C, geneses (plural of genesis? Maybe?) of many Gundam AfDs, shows regular collaboration on other, usually more constructive ventures (I do like the improvements made to some of the opera-related articles; quite an underappreciated art these days). Perhaps I was a bit presumptive in dismissing the possibility of there being something of a cabal here. MalikCarr 03:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Go read WP:TINC. Thankx. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 03:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "This is a collection of pages that were meant to be policy, but were too narrow, unpopular, or redundant to actually succeed." If one were to make a policy that stated that there is no sun, would the sun not exist? MalikCarr 04:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Hah. You'd be suprised what there are policies for. Jtrainor 04:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Malik, I'm confused. Many people think articles you like should be deleted, and these people comment in many AfDs... therefore they're part of an evil cabal? Please consider this against the chance that you are just wrong. -Amark moo! 04:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You, much like --ElaragirlTalk|Count, misunderstand. I have not made any accusations that the deletionist camp is an "evil cabal," but rather that there is a possibility that there is organized and strategic effort, including editors and administrators, that have a goal of eliminating these articles. There is evidence for and against this thesis; recently, there has been a modicum of further evidence in favor of this theoretical effort. That's all I've suggested, and I would prefer if you would assume good faith and cease making conjecture based on observations I have made. MalikCarr 04:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Right, let's assume good faith on your part when you basically state you think we're out to unfairly delete articles and that there's a conspiracy to destroy Gundam articles. When people try to explain their positions, or why comments like this don't improve the situation, you accuse them of an effort to destroy the articles you like. Since you don't appear to assume good faith on the part of anyone else, but demand we assume good faith on your part even after you insult us, claim we're violating process, and suggest we're acting in a manner that is biased, there isn't any reason for anyone to assume good faith anymore. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 05:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Fine by me; this veil of civility between deletionist and inclusionist camps was only making the situation even more maddening. MalikCarr 05:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You are not an inclusionist. badlydrawnjeff is an inclusionist. Kappa is an inclusionist. Jtrainor is an inclusionist. You are simply opposing the deletion of an article you find interesting. Don't try to conflate this to some sort of epic conflict. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 06:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm certainly glad you have cosmic powers capable of peering into the insight of my choices in supporting or opposing deletion of an article. Perhaps you could share with me the secret of your mind-bending techniques? With that kind of power, I could learn what makes a deletionist tick. MalikCarr 06:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The result was delete - the fact that the only people who think these should be kept are those in the project, tips the balances. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- An association with a Wikiproject cannot be the only factor used to justify the credibility (or lack of) during a debate.--Ed ¿Cómo estás?Reviews? 05:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn The reason cited for the decision to delete was inaccurate. Even if it were true, membership in a Wiki project is not a valid reason for discounting someone's opinions. This is as bad as if the original article had been kept based on the claim 'the only people arguing for deletion are Deletionists'. [8] Edward321 06:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Questions: Can anyone tell me why Hobby Japan is not considered a reliable source. It is independent, the company found 10 years before the first Gundam anime(found 1969, First Gundam 1979), is a publisher for American companies like Wizard of the Coast, Wizkid. They have published a magazine named after the company Hobby Japan in teaching modeling and providing information in various related information. The company also publish Arms Japan and GameJapan which is obviously not Gundam related at all. Another company, Media works published a magazine called Dengeki Hobby, which is 1 of the 9 magazines they published per month, and publishes various other books, occasionally using Gundam related models as its cover story, can anyone tell me why this is not reliable, too. Please quote specific policies form the WP:RS page because I fail to see how these are not reliable. About verifiablity, Just need to buy the issue yourself or ask the quoter to infringe copyright law and scan a copy for you. From the WP:N which tons of deletionist quoted: a topic is notable if it has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, reliable published works, whose sources are independent of the subject itself. If a topic have at least 2 non-trivial(cover story), reliable published works, independent sources of the subject itself, and can even source more sources from ModelGraphix, Newtype magazine, how did the article got deleted because it is not notable? MythSearchertalk 07:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and Relist at AfD - Further research (on my own, the sources tossed up here aren't worth beans) suggests that the topics IN THIS PARTICULAR DRV (the two articles)are mentioned in mainstream sourcing. If the original rationale is that they were non-notable and the only people arguing keep were partisan , that might be acceptible, but with reliable sourcing I cannot maintain that view. If article is kept deleted it should be allowed to be recreated with PROPER sourcing. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 07:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
-
- Sources not worth beans indicating it's very difficult to determine notability from them. I found both the mecha armor suits mentioned here in an book discussing Anime's impacts on culture. I linked them at WP:GUNDAM and will put them (and some information) into any recreated article. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 09:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you. More sources are good for any article; and hopefully the ones you provide will prove useful for other articles as well. Edward321 15:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because it is difficult to determine notability from a Japanese webpage doesn't mean that this notability doesn't exist. We're talking about Japanese cultural icons here, it's blatant that the majority of the sources will be in Japanese. I'd try to do some more in depth research on Hobby Japanand Media works before discounting them as being "not worth beans."128.97.146.224 09:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
- Well, now I become interested how you can decide if any scientific article is notable. About the difficulties to determine notability, please re-read MythSearcher's arguments above. An important thing which may concern me if you cannot know notability because the language and different culture. Try to read this if you have access to jstor.org, to open something. Another thing fun to read is Article about Pepsi promo legal issue. Actually this kind of articles are somehow quite common, but uncommon in English. FYK, in Japan it is common to see people old and young watching anime or reading comic (manga). If you want even you can look for Chinese (mainland, Hong Kong, Taiwan), Korean, and as far as Indonesian. Draconins 10:03, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The fun thing is, anime has became so common and natural in these area(I live in Hong Kong) that it is almost impossible to not come across unreliable newspaper sources. I just read like 5 articles in various mainstream newspaper last week with nothing similar to the origin plot but they call it a plot summary(I guess it is better than the NGE China official release where the government cut half of the scenes away to make the not so brave main character Shinji into a brave hero fighting off evil plotless series). An older introduction to a then new toy series the Keroro Fix series stating it is copyright infringement of Gundam fix series was actually by the copyright holder company itself, various things that fans will just laugh at were seen in these so called reliable sources and yet tons of kids got their information there. (Which gives me a headache just to fix them in the Chinese wiki) MythSearchertalk 19:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn per MalikCarr. 74.70.203.43 23:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
- disregarded by closer- spa, IP, no new arguments or sources offered in this opinionGRBerry
- Overturn per nom. :P Seriously, though, the closing admin stated outright that he was discounting keep arguments because they were being made by WikiProject Gundam members (apparently he also didn't notice that despite editing a lot of Gundam articles, I'm not actually part of the Project). That's clearly not a good reason to disregard arguments; in any AfD those working on the articles in question will probably be among those opposing deletion. If editors who work on an article are to be disregarded in AfD, then that's an admission that Wikipedia has a systematic bias toward deletion. That the deck is stacked in favor of deleting an article from the moment it gets AfDed. Clearly that's not the way Wikipedia is supposed to work. Redxiv 03:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure. Perfectly reasonable closure, and the foot-stamping-in-lieu-of-actual-arguments is getting old. --Calton | Talk 07:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Great, you aren't going to debate this either? Ugh... MalikCarr 19:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
|
