Talk:Mary Boleyn

For organized sourced information on Mary Boleyn go to: http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/MaryBoleyn.htm

jeanne (talk) 08:07, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

West Dakota Prize

A Winner of the August 2004 West Dakota Prize

This entry has won the West Dakota Prize for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.

---

A Winner of the September 2005 West Dakota Prize

This entry, one of an unprecedented 52, has won the September 2005 West Dakota Prize, awarded for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.

---

Titles

As far as I can ascertain, Mary Boleyn was married to William Carey in 1520 (which would make her Lady Mary Carey), but prior to that was the daughter of a knight, which would make her plain Mary Boleyn. Her father didn't become an earl until later. I don't see any period when she woulad have been Lady Mary Boleyn. Deb 23:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. Remember to change the article to express the facts, too. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 07:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

≈this is the istory why is`ent there a timeline of all this? 15:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)15:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)~~Ξ±±±±±±

There is a possibility, under etiquette, that she and her sister could have been styled "Lady" even prior to 1520, because they were the granddaughters of the duke of Norfolk (the premier aristocrat in England) and the earl of Ormonde (the premier aristocrat in Ireland.)

I see. That wouldn't make it a valid article title, but it's interesting. Deb 19:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

A Duke's granddaughter would not have been entitled to use Lady before their name. The only people that can use this (by right of birth) are daughters of earls, marquesses and dukes. PeterSymonds | talk 20:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

In fact, she would have been known as "Lady Mary" (i.e., Lady Firstname) after her father's elevation to an earldom— from 1529 if the date in his article is correct—because she was not married to a peer and her precedence and courtesy title as an earl's daughter was higher than that of a knight's wife. So from birth she would have been Mistress Mary Boleyn; Lady Carey (wife of a knight) on her marriage in 1520 (assuming he was knighted before his marriage); Lady Mary Carey from 1529 when her father became an earl, and Lady Mary Stafford from 1534 (rather, from the time the secret came out), on her second marriage.

I have never heard of a duke's granddaughters being allowed a Lady Firstname style, but things were less rigid in Tudor times. Certainly the king could have granted any style he chose. Laura1822 17:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Would Mary's title have been affected by her father's elevation even though she was married? I wasn't sure, I don't know the protocol for daughters of men elevated to the rank of duke/marquess/earl who marry before their father receives the title. "The Other Boleyn Girl" stated that she was not affected, but that's hardly trustworthy. - Holly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.66.207 (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

In the list of Styles, Mary is listed as being "Mary Stafford" after her second marriage - as the daughter of an earl, wouldn't she have been entitled to the title of Lady and styled as "Lady Mary Stafford", regardless of her husband's status? Frances Brandon, Lady Jane Grey's mother, retained her title of Lady even after she married a commoner, Adrian Stokes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.66.206 (talk) 15:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

question

why is`ent there A timeline of this great suff i mean should`ent we be able to skim through and find what we need faster? if so we should speak up and get a freaking timeline thnk later

This article is full of problems. The fact that her date of birth is unknown, then in the following paragraph, a specific date of 1514 "when she was about 15 years old". Which is right? Was she about 15 in 1514, or was she born between the years given in that 20 year time span?

This article needs serious cleanup and fact checking.

I don't believe it needs fact checking. There is a clear reference to the historical works and sources which support a date of c. 1499, which means she would have been "about" 15 in 1514. It is only a 9 year period of debate, not 20 - the guesses for her birth are between 1499 and 1508, but - as the reference shows - the standard historical answer is 1499, 1500 or 1501. User:Gboleyn

Yes, I agree, the article looks okay as it stands. Deb 21:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The 1499 date stems from the fact that the date of her parents' marriage is usually set around the 1498/9 mark, so she couldn't have been born earlier than that. Mary would have had to be born in 1508 or earlier because she married in 1520 and twelve was the minimum age for marriage. One historian I know of to use the 1508 date for Mary is Professor Warnicke, who bases her reasoning on the fact that it was Anne and not Mary who was sent to the Netherlands and as it would be unusual for Anne to be given this opportunity ahead of an older sister, Mary must have been younger than Anne. However, this is directly contradicted by documentary evidence; the letters patent for Anne's elevation to Marquess of Pembroke referred to her as "a daughter" of Thomas Boleyn, not "the elder daughter", as would certainly have been the case if she had been the older of the two, and Mary's son, Henry Carey, would later claim the earldom of Ormonde through his mother's right, a title that would have belonged to Anne's daughter, Elizabeth if Anne had been the older sister.

Given what is known of Mary's life before her marriage, an earlier date is more likely. - Holly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.66.207 (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Introduction altered

I removed the "and gained infamy" from the description of Mary - it basically read, "she was the member of a titled English family who wielded power, and gained infamy, in the Tudor period." This is an inappropriate tone for an encylopedia article - "infamy" is subjective in this context. User:Gboleyn

Question on Sources

Although, I am sure that the information is being sourced correctly, I am curious as to why the sources for Weir, for example, only give her name and a page number. Why are the titles of the books where the information came out of from Weir not listed there as well? I know it sounds silly as they are listed below but it might look neater to have only one section with either the sources or just a reference section with the title of the book, her name and a page number. Virgosky 15:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you to whomever fixed it. Virgosky 13:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Genealogical reading

Could someone help? I think the genealogical reading sentence should be sourced better as to whether Weir said it or Ives. I removed it for now. If anyone can find the source then please put it back up. Virgosky 22:13, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have also removed the sentence about Weir and Ives suggesting when she was born and Mary's pregnancy at William Carey's death. After re-examining some of their books neither Ives nor Weir ever suggested any genealogical error nor those two theories. Both of them seem to simply question whether both or if either child was ever fathered by Henry VIII. Virgosky 16:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The opening sentence isn't worded sufficiently

"Mary Boleyn was a member of the famous aristocratic Boleyn family, which enjoyed considerable influence during the early part of the 16th century".

Influence over what, exactly?--203.214.5.237 13:57, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

There's no point in adding unseen comments to the text of the article. If you don't think the phrase is meaningful, make an appropriate amendment to the article. Deb 18:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistent Information

At the end of the Second Marriage section, it states that Mary's second husband predeceased her and that her death was in 1543. However, the final paragraph of the following section, Children states that Sir William Stafford (the 2nd husband) died in 1556, So either he did not predecease her or he did not die in 1556. Motshd5 (talk) 12:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

her child / henry viii

The article currently states that,

There is no other contemporary evidence that Mary's son, Henry Carey, was the king’s biological son and a close reading of the Letters and Papers (a collection of surviving documents from the period) clearly pinpoint Henry's birth in March 1526 - by which time the affair is believed to have ended.[7]

The problem is that this text, as written, implies that this timing renders Henry VIII's parentage impossible. Clearly it's not the time of Henry Carey's birth that's relevant, but the time of his conception. I don't have access to the sources to verify what was intended, or to figure out how to accurately rewrite this. --Lquilter (talk) 20:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I've amended it to try and make it sound less of a non-sequitur. (Or do I mean more of a non-sequitur?) Deb (talk) 23:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

• More of a sequitur, maybe! Anyway, that makes it clearer -- the reference is definitely to Henry Carey's birth. However, it doesn't actually resolve any question about whether the child was H-8's or not. If the affair was over prior to his conception, we should state that clearly. In the meantime, I like your wording and am tinkering with it a bit more. --Lquilter (talk) 23:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
• Okay - it ended up being more of a tinkering than I'd anticipated. I think it reads better now, though. The information about when the affair ended has been moved up to the section about the timing of the affair. The section about the rumors about the children thus does not have the affair information, and therefore does not give any false impressions about the timing. --Lquilter (talk) 23:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Eldest daughter

This pages claims that Mary Boleyn is proven to be the eldest daughter of Thomas Boleyn, but lacks any source for this information other than a reference to a website. I'm not sure if I buy it, since I know for a fact that the idea that Mary was the eldest daughter of Thomas Boleyn is hotly debated. The page claims that Mary's grandson Lord Hunsdon's petitioning to receive the Earldom of Ormonde by right of inheritance from his great-grandfather is proof of Mary being the eldest daughter as it would lend him superior rights of inheritance. However, it must be remembered that, according to Allison Weir, Anne Boleyn's marriage to Henry VIII was annulled right before her execution and her daughter was declared a bastard. Thus, because she was illegitimate in the eyes of the law, Elizabeth would have been considered ineligible to succeed to the Earldom of her grandfather anyway, no matter which one of Thomas Boleyn's daughters was the eldest. This, along with the fact that Elizabeth was female and thus probably less likely to be awarded the Earldom anyway, and also that her mother had been attainted by act of Parliament and thus she could not have inherited any of her claims even if she had been legitimate I think is enough proof that the article's statement about Mary being the elder daughter is unprovable. Also, if at the time the suite was made Elizabeth had acceded to the throne, then her rights would have already been merged with the Crown and she would have been able to recreate the title a new anyway, and that is only IF all of the above had not been true (which it is, and I cite Allison Weir's Six Wives as my source). Therefore, I propose that we remove at once the statement "The evidence suggests that the surviving Boleyns believed Mary had been the eldest child; in 1597, her grandson—Lord Hunsdon—claimed the title of “earl of Ormonde” on the grounds that he was the Boleyns’ legitimate heir. According to the strict rules of aristocratic inheritance, if Anne had been the elder sister, the title would have belonged to her daughter, Queen Elizabeth—since a title descended through the eldest female line in the absence of a surviving male line." Just thought I'd bring that to everyone's attention, since the debate about Mary or Anne being the elder daughter is one that has yet to be solved and is hotly debated (to the extent of my knowledge). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.231.17 (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

This shouldn't be removed. Hunsdon would not have challenged Elizabeth on the basis that she was a bastard whose mother had been attainted. At the time of the suit Elizabeth was queen. The vast majority of modern historians assert that Mary was the elder. Boleyn (talk) 08:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

And I think the article is pretty clear that no one knows for certain which was the elder (despite the repeated efforts of some anonymous contributors to make it read as if Mary was definitely younger). Deb (talk) 12:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The idea that she was the younger daughter seems to stem from the idea that, if Mary had been the elder daughter, Anne would never have been sent to the court of the Archduchess Margaret instead of her, but since Anne seems to have been the brighter of the two, it makes sense that she would have been sent, even if she was younger. - Holly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.121.40 (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC) ==Just based on the fact that Mary was married before Anne,seems to pretty much point in the direction of Mary being the eldest sister.I would even hazard a guess that she was born in spring 1500.This is based on evidence I have read but cannot verify with absolute certainty that Anne was born in May 1501; and as their father himself declared that every year his wife brought forth a child; the spring of 1500 seems a possible date for Mary's birth.

"However, it must be remembered that, according to Allison Weir, Anne Boleyn's marriage to Henry VIII was annulled right before her execution and her daughter was declared a bastard. Thus, because she was illegitimate in the eyes of the law, Elizabeth would have been considered ineligible to succeed to the Earldom of her grandfather anyway, no matter which one of Thomas Boleyn's daughters was the eldest. This, along with the fact that Elizabeth was female and thus probably less likely to be awarded the Earldom anyway, and also that her mother had been attainted by act of Parliament and thus she could not have inherited any of her claims even if she had been legitimate I think is enough proof that the article's statement about Mary being the elder daughter is unprovable. Also, if at the time the suite was made Elizabeth had acceded to the throne, then her rights would have already been merged with the Crown and she would have been able to recreate the title a new anyway,"

If Henry Carey had claimed the earldom during the reign of Mary I, then that argument would make a lot of sense but he did it during Elizabeth I's reign. He would have been a fool to lay claim to the title if Anne was the elder daughter, or even if the order of birth was uncertain. It would have been nothing short of political suicide for him to make a claim that would imply that Elizabeth was illegitimate, or to draw attention to her mother's conviction for treason.

If the title was inherited by Elizabeth and merged with the Crown, then Carey wouldn't be able to claim it, any more than he could claim any other title belonging to the Crown. I suppose he could *ask* to be created Earl of Ormonde, as a favour or a gift, but there's a big difference between that and *claiming* the earldom as a right.193.95.162.29 (talk) 15:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

"in 1597, her grandson, Lord Hunsdon, claimed the title of “earl of Ormonde” on the grounds that he was the Boleyns’ legitimate heir. According to the strict rules of aristocratic inheritance, if Anne had been the elder sister, the title would have belonged to her daughter, Queen Elizabeth—since a title descended through the eldest female line in the absence of a surviving male line. Logic, however, indicates that since Elizabeth had no children, the title would revert to Mary's line, since she did have children. Therefore Mary's grandson would not make an indirect assertion that his grandmother was the eldest, but rather the opposite."

The above sounds very muddled; if Mary was younger than Anne, how could Lord Hundson lay claim to the title of Earl of Ormonde as heir ahead of Elizabeth during Elizabeth's lifetime? Since Elizabeth was childless, one might argue that Hundson could claim to be the legitimate heir after she died. Before, it would be a different story. If Anne was older, then Elizabeth would be heir (since only a total fool would claim that she was illegitimate and therefore disbarred) until the day she died but if Mary was older, her descendants would have prior claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.47.42.32 (talk) 15:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I have deleted the word "elder" in the sentence "It was once believed that it was Mary who began her education abroad and spent time as a companion to Archduchess Margaret of Austria; but it is now clear that it was her elder sister, Anne. Mary was kept in England for most of her childhood." It contradicts the previous paragraph and it is not necessary. Whoever was the elder of the two sisters has nothing to do with who left home first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amj1967 (talk • contribs) 08:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Born at Blickling

Seeing as Mary was born at Blickling Hall and not Hever, wouldn't this pinpoint her date of birth as prior to 1505 when Thomas Boleyn inherited Hever Castle?--jeanne (talk) 11:17, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, we only believe Mary and Anne were born at Blickling because we believe they were born before 1505. I don't think there's any conclusive evidence for it. Boleyn (talk) 11:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Mary's Age

At the beginning of the article, a range of years of birth is given for Mary, stating that she was born between 1499 and 1508. However, later in the article, the following sentence:

"It was not until 1514, when she was between the ages of twelve and fifteen, that she was sent abroad."

narrows the range of dates to 1499 to 1502, effectively excluding the possibility that she was born between 1503 and 1508, a possibility that was already acknowledged in the article, which seems very contradictory. Why bother mentioning Mary's age in 1514 at all, when her possible years of birth, along with the approximate date currently favoured by "most scholars and historians" are already included? Wouldn't it be better not to try to pin down her age at all? Maybe the sentence should be changed to:

"It was not until 1514 that she was sent abroad." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.95.162.29 (talk) 11:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

If Mary was sent abroad in 1514, a 1508 birthdate would have made her only six years old at the time-virtually impossible for a maid-of-honour! I think the dates of birth should be narrowed down to read 1499 to 1502.--jeanne (talk) 12:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

There were precedents for very young children to be sent abroad - Anne Brandon was 6 when she joined the court of the Archduchess Margaret in 1512 - though, given the allegations about Mary being a mistress of King Francois, I'd be inclined to think that 1499-1502 is closer to the truth than 1508.

My point is that, if the article has already acknowledged the possibility of Mary being born as late as 1508, it's contradictory to exclude that possibility later.86.47.42.32 (talk) 15:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC)